View Full Version : Your opinions on this computer and how it will run Neocron.
PenguinNick
27-05-04, 01:29
Motherboard: Asus A7N8X NForce2 Motherboard 400FSB Dual DDR400
CPU: AMD Athlon XP 2500+ Processor Barton 333FSB
Antec 350w Power Supply
Memory: 512 MB (2x256mb) Dual Channel DDR PC3200 400 mhz
Normal Floppy, Normal CD Drive
Antec Super Lanboy Aluminum Case
Video Card: 128 MB AGP Radeon 9800 Pro DDR
Hard Drive: 80 GB Maxtor SATA HDD 7200RPM ATA150
In total it'd be $1,041.83 American Dollars
not a bad system m8, will run neocron as well as is needed (well as well as can be expected ;) )
nice comp, would run nc very well, only sugestion add another 512 of ram ..+ id put 2600 its only 10 dollar difference.....
PenguinNick
27-05-04, 01:37
nice comp, would run nc very well, only sugestion add another 512 of ram ..+ id put 2600 its only 10 dollar difference.....
well im a tad bit over budget as it is, and its strictly for the following programs:
Neocron / NL Pro
Ventrilo
Teamspeak
Nothing else will be run on it
heh, it will run teh thing very nicely especially with ter 9800 radeon :D
me got 2100 with radeon 9000, my fps don't drop below 35 even in huge opfights..
PenguinNick
27-05-04, 01:41
heh, it will run teh thing very nicely especially with ter 9800 radeon :D
me got 2100 with radeon 9000, my fps don't drop below 35 even in huge opfights..
currently i get 7 fps in plaza and 1 - 3 depending on size at an op fight ^_^
So i think ill see a bit of improvement :)
PenguinNick
27-05-04, 01:47
heh, it will run teh thing very nicely especially with ter 9800 radeon :D
me got 2100 with radeon 9000, my fps don't drop below 35 even in huge opfights..
what internet connection are u runnin on? im runnin on cable so.... thats not gonna make it shitty is it?
what internet connection are u runnin on? im runnin on cable so.... thats not gonna make it shitty is it?
Connection speed makes very little difference to NC as long as you have at least a 56k modem.
Its not bad for a budget system, though the price is rather high, for a budget system O_o http://www.dabs.com/uk/shopbybrand/sony/desktopcomputing/ProductView.htm?quicklinx=300B looks much better with better specs (cept for video)
neocron varies system to system .. you can have the same exact PC as another person and neocron can run totally different on each machine. It's a magic formula. When you first install NC a D20 is rolled and that determines the scale of compatiblity you recieve . . . :D
But it's a hella lot better machine that what I have :(
QuantumDelta
27-05-04, 02:34
Its not bad for a budget system, though the price is rather high, for a budget system O_o http://www.dabs.com/uk/shopbybrand/sony/desktopcomputing/ProductView.htm?quicklinx=300B looks much better with better specs (cept for video)
What he said.
--
Jernau, btw, I have made several observations about how regularly i crash depending on what my ping is (depending on whether i'm downloading something or not).
--
meh
Jernau, btw, I have made several observations about how regularly i crash depending on what my ping is (depending on whether i'm downloading something or not).
Very true but that has nothing to do with bandwidth - that's latency.
heh, it will run teh thing very nicely especially with ter 9800 radeon :D
me got 2100 with radeon 9000, my fps don't drop below 35 even in huge opfights..
I am running a P4 2.0ghz, old styles... 100fsb.
1gig of ram
256mb Gcard - Leadtek A360 tdh (Gforce FX 5700)
I get 60-80 fps average, and about 20-40 at the worst of times.
I used to have a gigabyte Gefore 4 Gts - 64mb.
The only difference the Gcard made for me, was a tiny FPS raise, but mainly more texture detail on the ground, etc.
Maybe if you arent planning on it being a "good computer", get more ram and a lower Gcard.
but yea, more ram will help alot.
I used to get about 50-70 average, and about 15-30 at the worst of times.
Motherboard: Asus A7N8X NForce2 Motherboard 400FSB Dual DDR400
CPU: AMD Athlon XP 2500+ Processor Barton 333FSB
Antec 350w Power Supply
Memory: 512 MB (2x256mb) Dual Channel DDR PC3200 400 mhz
Normal Floppy, Normal CD Drive
Antec Super Lanboy Aluminum Case
Video Card: 128 MB AGP Radeon 9800 Pro DDR
Hard Drive: 80 GB Maxtor SATA HDD 7200RPM ATA150
In total it'd be $1,041.83 American Dollars
Decent rig and it'll run NC fine enough:
But I'd upgrade the CPU. If it's only a 333FSB Barton and not a 400FSB, you're paying extra for DDR400 ram and an nForce chipset which aren't going to perform to their capabilities. Def go Barton, but up it to say a 3000+ or better.
If you want to cut corners on the HDD Price, an ATA133 7200drive will perform JUST AS WELL as a SerialATA. Until SATA hits the 300 range, ATA133 is more cost effective. And the aluminum case... it's pretty... but is it really necessary? :p That's just a big chunk of change too. If money doens't matter tho, hell go for it.
A beefier PSU might be nice too. Take a look at Silverstone's new line of 120mm fan PSUs. I picked up a 400watt one and it's SUPER quiet, and when my power flickers, even without a UPS (battery is being replaced), my machine doesn't dip in voltage.
But I'd upgrade the CPU. If it's only a 333FSB Barton and not a 400FSB, you're paying extra for DDR400 ram and an nForce chipset which aren't going to perform to their capabilities. Def go Barton, but up it to say a 3000+ or better.
Most 2500+s will run at 3200+ speeds with little or no voltage change.
Why pay for a 3000+ when for $20 more you can throw a new heatsink on an run at 3500-3600+ speeds?
If you want to cut corners on the HDD Price, an ATA133 7200drive will perform JUST AS WELL as a SerialATA
Well, I use a SATA converter on my DVD+/-RW drive so I actually have my IDE controller disabled in the BIOS, freeing up one IRQ. I actually have *just* enough IRQs free that I can disable APCI thus avoiding IRQs being shared... so SATA has some use even despite the lack of any real performance gain.
He's in my clan and I had actually gave him a list of parts and he's made some changes. I had suggested an NF7-S, which he could have then later grabbed a second 80GB drive and put them in RAID-0 because it's got an onboard raid controller, and the nForce chipset has that nice hypertransport link between the nb/sb.
Aluminum cases are so much better than steel ones. Heat dissipation, weight... then again I've got my rig sitting here on my desk without any case whatsoever, so I should probably shut my mouth.
And as for the power supply - unless you're going to spend $175 on a PC Power & Cooling one with adjustable pots, it's all the same shit.
Atm i got:
3,4 P4
512 DDR
RADEON 9800XT
Will it help alot if i add 512 more?
Mmmm *loves his Serial ata WD raptor 10k rpm drive*
Zypron, an extra 512mb always helps, any game. whether its worth is up to you. but all games will run smoother, you may not be able to pump settings up, but it will perfform better than current.
damn, I wanted raptors, way too out of my price range
Will it help alot if i add 512 more?
Well, I would say yes - add another 512 mb and then disable virtual memory. The thing is, even when you have free ram, windows is still putting shit in the page file and accessing it. Hard drive access times = bunk in comparison to memory access times.
the only reason that I myself have not gone to 1gb yet is because I've got two 256MB 333MHz dimms that run at close to 420MHz or so and adding more memory could cause them to not overclock as high.
damn, I wanted raptors, way too out of my price range
HAHA yea, i bought it as an experimental drive, i was going to try dump it into my Xbox, but after my friend bought it, and saw the connector, we found out that the xbox only has a Ata 33 connector! LOL
Aww well, its one sweet as C: i can assure you :)
I don't even really know much/anything about RAID other than the differences between RAID-0 and RAID-1 - when you put two drives in a RAID array, can you then partition it off in to two separate drives? I reformat like... every other week, and I need a separate drive to store music and install files, etc
I actually have my IDE controller disabled in the BIOS, freeing up one IRQ. I actually have *just* enough IRQs free that I can disable APCI thus avoiding IRQs being shared... so SATA has some use even despite the lack of any real performance gain.
Erm, that's admirably pointless.
"And as for the power supply - unless you're going to spend $175 on a PC Power & Cooling one with adjustable pots, it's all the same shit." - this is complete nonsense.
Motherboard: Asus A7N8X NForce2 Motherboard 400FSB Dual DDR400
CPU: AMD Athlon XP 2500+ Processor Barton 333FSB
Antec 350w Power Supply
Memory: 512 MB (2x256mb) Dual Channel DDR PC3200 400 mhz
Normal Floppy, Normal CD Drive
Antec Super Lanboy Aluminum Case
Video Card: 128 MB AGP Radeon 9800 Pro DDR
Hard Drive: 80 GB Maxtor SATA HDD 7200RPM ATA150
In total it'd be $1,041.83 American Dollars
I'd swap the cpu to a 400mhz fsb...i mean your getting 400mhz memory, your mobo will be a 400mhz mhz fsb one but your only getting a 333mhz cpu :/
If your set on getting a 333mhz cpu then get 333mhz memory because it will only run at 333mhz with a 333mhz cpu.
Or if you can afford it, get a 64 bit amd...the mobo wont be _that_ much more...the AMD64 2800+ is faster than any 32 bit AMD (upto 3200+) by a long shot and its actually quite cheap and it wont be outdated within a day.
But on running nc, well...who knows? its not a game that runs on pc specs, it runs from willpower. The only thing that boosts fps considerably is a CPU..until DoY maybe? I get high fps and im only running a 2600+ amd but its overclocked to 2.3ghz :D my gfx card is hardly top 'o de' line heh...GF4 ti4600 until i can afford a 6800U or X800XT :eek: :D
you crank up 2500+'s easily to 3200+ with 400mhz fsb
Erm, that's admirably pointless.
Funny, there are all sorts of problems that can arise from sharing some IRQs and I've had some retarted instances of my graphics adapater having the same IRQ as my sound card, not only that but it was causing a periodic stutter that stopped when I made this change. Perhaps it was a coincidence, but at least I am offering something to back up my claims.
"And as for the power supply - unless you're going to spend $175 on a PC Power & Cooling one with adjustable pots, it's all the same shit." - this is complete nonsense.
Want to actually explain why?
I'll go ahead and refute your future argument anyway... a better power supply - a 50W jump (more like 30W when you factor in inefficiencies and the fact you should optimally not run a power supply at it's full capacity anyway). Is 30W really going to make a difference? No, because 350W already satisfies all the components in his setup. If he had four hard disks, two burners, a gig of ram, and an intel chip then yes, a power supply with a higher capacity would be in order. He could probably run that rig (maybe with a slightly slower video card, the 9800 pro has really high power consumption) on a shitty 300W power supply that comes with those $15 cases.
On top of that, much more needs to be taken in to consideration than just the big pretty number. How much amperage does the 12V rail have? A 400 W power supply might have most of it's weight thrown in to a shared 3.3/5V rail and the 12V might be lacking, or vice versa.
And to go a bit further, what matters is rail stability. Got a link to a review of that power supply? Because I've got a 520W Vantec PSU and it's 12V rail is all over the map... just because it's got a high nubmer doesn't mean it's going to have great voltage regulation.
Or if you can afford it, get a 64 bit amd...the mobo wont be _that_ much more...the AMD64 2800+ is faster than any 32 bit AMD (upto 3200+) by a long shot and its actually quite cheap and it wont be outdated within a day
Hmm, I'm gonna check this out now. My laptop has a athlon 64 3000+ in it and my desktop is a barton 2500 which is at stock speeds right now anyway. I'm gonna bench sisoft and I'll post the results.
slaughteruall
27-05-04, 13:57
Not a bad system at all. Yeah like some people say you dont need to buy a 400 FSB CPU just up the FSB in the bios. You should see a very nice FPS increase. Where did you price that at? If your going to build it yourself i would check Newegg (www.newegg.com) that is if your state side of course.
My system
NF7-S
1700+ @2.346 (204 x 11.5)
1 gig mushkin lvl 2
9800 PRO
2 120 gig WD 8 mb cache in raid 0
I usually get around 120-150 FPS in P1 at OP's depends what OP and how many people are there. Sieger still kills my FPS it's that damn OP. If i stick my head in a corner i can get 250 FPS
Slaughter
wrt IRQs - I can't speak for your particular system(s) but if you read up on what they are and how they work you will see what I mean.
wrt PSUs - Again it helps to understand the underlying technology. The efficiency curve of a switched-mode PSU has a rapid tail-off. By upping your power rating by 10% you can improve the efficiency by up to 50%. Also the more you push a supply into overload (for most 300W supplies that means anywhere over 200W) the less reliable it gets. Unreliable or overloaded PSUs kill more PCs than anything else (bar users) but spending $175 is crazy.
.......And dont use Windows 2000 on it.
XP and 98 are the best for NC.
More Ram will help a bit if your serious about Neocron.
.......And dont use Windows 2000 on it.
XP and 98 are the best for NC.
hahahhahahhahhahahahahahahahahahhah
Yeah and in that vein - don't forget to fill the case with custard.
Yeah, 64 3000+ has the same (well, 30MHz slower) clock speed than the 2500+ barton, and they performed identically in sisofts arithmetic benchmarks, the only difference being the 64 3000+ had support for isse2..
The 2500+ performed a bit better in the multimedia benchmark... but these are all synthetic I'm not sure how they compare in real tests, tomshwardware probably has some information on it.
1700+ @2.346 (204 x 11.5)
You on water? and got any aftermarket cooling on your 9800?
but spending $175 is crazy.
Not when having rock solid rails matters, no, no it's not.
if the only game youll b playing is neocron i suggest a nvidia based vid card not an ATI....... and yea that price seems a lot higher than it should
slaughteruall
27-05-04, 14:08
You on water? and got any aftermarket cooling on your 9800?
No i'm on air. And stock cooling on the 9800 for now. But i do have the fan speed turned up a little. Not sure what i have it clocked at either. It's not OC'd by a whole lot yet. I have alot of case fans. And a Antec 480W true blue for a PSU gives me rock stable lines. I'm at 36c under full load.
Slaughter
Again it helps to understand the underlying technology.
You might want to start reading, then.
The efficiency curve of a switched-mode PSU has a rapid tail-off. By upping your power rating by 10% you can improve the efficiency by up to 50%.
I'm seeing otherwise. From 50% of nominal->100% of nominal load, the efficiency only goes up a bit (from about 70% efficiency to 80% efficiency)
page 14 (http://www.efficientpowersupplies.org/pages/Energy_efficiency_computer_ps_EngTr.pdf)
And while running them over capacity (addressed below) may be what you are describing, I'm arguing that the system he has is not going to draw that 350W unit over it's nominal load.
Also the more you push a supply into overload (for most 300W supplies that means anywhere over 200W) the less reliable it gets.
I was under the impression that nominal loads were more around 80% of the listed capacity, not 66%. ie. 240W
I'm at 36c under full load.
I've got to say I'm a bit skeptical unless you got a really really luck of the draw chip - what's your vcore at to be reaching those speeds? Before my dad fried my 1800+ and it became a keychain I was putting 1.85 through it to reach 2.1 and I had 10 fans inside my case and I was still hitting about 50C
slaughteruall
27-05-04, 14:16
And while running them over capacity (addressed below) may be what you are describing, I'm arguing that the system he has is not going to draw that 350W unit over it's nominal load.
As long as it's not some POS PSU he will be fine with a 350W. I always go over board when i buy PSU's because i can keep it around for other systems later on. Hell the comp i'm building right now has a Antec 550w PSU in it. That's what i loke to call over kill but i dont care it will last for a while.
Slaughter
I've got to say I'm a bit skeptical unless you got a really really luck of the draw chip - what's your vcore at to be reaching those speeds? Before my dad fried my 1800+ and it became a keychain I was putting 1.85 through it to reach 2.1 and I had 10 fans inside my case and I was still hitting about 50C
My vcore is at 1.775. Here is my stepping code 1700+ XPMW 0312. Got it for 50$ from SVC (www.svc.com). I have 3 80mm intake fans 2 80mm exhaust fans, 2 fans in my PSU, a SLK 800 and a TT smat fan 2. All those fans and it's still not very load. Before i leave for work tomarrow i will run prime 95 for 8 hours and will take a screen shot of my load temp. With it being summer now it might raise a few degree's but i still bet i'm not over 40c.
Slaughter
hah, my 520W turns itself off from overdraw if I put my vcore any higher because I have a peltier on my video card and I haven't got around to buying a dedicated power supply for it :P
___T-X____
27-05-04, 14:18
Great Motherboard, I have 2.
You want the Raptor Drive 10,000 RPM 36.7 Gig, install system and games on to this drive and get an a 7,200 RPM second drive for your music etc.
Get a Radion X800 graiffics card, the 9800 pro is a piece of shit in comparison.
Case wise, dont go for one that just looks nice. Get a Thermaltake Xaser case because everything pulls out and fits together easily. Also come with 6 quality fans that help airflow, reduce temperate, and lower the chances of overheating and blue screen crashing/restarting.
www.thermaltake.com
Barton Core xp3200 @ 400FSB a must
The Ram _MUST_ BE A MATCHED kit. You want 2 x 512mb because your motherboard does dual channel in 2 slots out the 3 on your motherboard.
I recommend Kingston Hyper-X 1Gig Kit
and the powersupply is to low in power. You need 400W upwards, I recommend the Antec 550W because its about 500W true and its cheap, althougth not super quiet.
The price aint the greatest, so grab Yellow pages and email the quotation to everyone. You may end up paying a little to get it delivered, but its worth it if you save 200$, which isnt hard to do.
i got a quick question that i wanna tagon here if u dont mind :p
atm i got a AMD Athlon XP 1700, 736MB RAM, and a GeForce 2 Integrated.
I wanna upgrade the Athlon 1700 to a 3000, and the GeForce 2 (which is PCI or whateva :D) to a Radeon 9800 which is AGP...cept im a retard at comps...i wouldnt know a AGP slot from my arse. N e way i can tell if the Athlon 3000 and athe 9800 are compatible...i dont mind craking open the case, its just i dont know what im looking for :p
hahaha
"I am a bit over my budget guys"
the response?
"you need $500 more of stuff"
The thermaltake xaser cases suck fucking ASS. I am sorry but I am not paying for a case just to advertise THERMALTAKE on every square inch of it.
The whole "matched DDR!" kit thing is a hoax and a half to get extra money. Must is a pretty strong word, I thing someone got duped and is still trying to justify spending as much as $50 extra when they first came out. DUAL CHANNEL SUPER OPTIMIZED ULTRA MEGA ORDER YOUR PIZZA RAM!
i wouldnt know a AGP slot from my arse. N e way i can tell if the Athlon 3000 and athe 9800 are compatible...i dont mind craking open the case, its just i dont know what im looking for
Crack open the case and look for a brown slot at the top of all the expansion slots. Also, if you can use a 1700+ then you should be able to use a 3000+ but as many have said in this thread, get a 2500+ and you can overclock it to 3000+ or more with little or no trouble. to be sure, do you know what model your motherboard is?
Oh, and that Radeon 9800 pro graphics card is just fine. I still use a 9500 non-pro softmodded to 9700 and overclocked and I get 150fps in neocron (which is all he said he was going to use it for)
Getting the latest computer hardware is not wise at all. Even if you are a yuppie and can afford it, there's little need.
___T-X____
27-05-04, 14:29
Samhain - you really havent got a fucking clue
@Samhain: Ok cheers ill crack her open when i get home and have a butchers
slaughteruall
27-05-04, 14:34
Samhain - you really havent got a fucking clue
That's odd most of the stuff he has said has been right on. i would never pay that much money for a case. I can get a knockoff of it for a hell of a lot cheaper. The lan boy is a very nice case. The xaser to mcuh damn money.
@samhain i edit'ed my last post.
Slaughter
Samhain - you really havent got a fucking clue
No, no I guarentee I do. You're the kind of person that goes shopping and buys whatever has the biggest price tag assuming it's the best.
From my own personal tests on PSUs (I spent several weeks scoping a range of them while designing a case from scratch) I'd say the nominal ratings on most supplies over 300W are up to double what I would consider letting them run for an extended time. The document you linked to does not show you what happens to their reliabilty as they heat up, the rate at which they heat up or the line-noise related to either heat or load.
I'm not saying some high-price supplies aren't worth the money (though many certainly aren't) - I'm saying that if you use a cheap/standard PSU you should pay the extra few dollars for what claims to be a 450-500W unit as it will then actually be up to powering a 300W PC. Cheap "300W" supplies are only good for doorstops.
wrt the units tested in that document I would also point out they are all from manufacturers who don't generally over-rate their supplies because they are designed to go into specific PCs. Manufacturers who sell a boxed OEM product are more liable to "bend the truth" on their numbers.
all valid points, I will agree to that - however he is looking to buy an antec power supply, which are decent units and I don't think they fudge the truth as much as the ones that come in those $15 cases.
___T-X____
27-05-04, 15:16
No, no I guarentee I do. You're the kind of person that goes shopping and buys whatever has the biggest price tag assuming it's the best.
lol, no I build computers and work for a computer retailer as Sales and Technician and understand why its important to get a quality case.
Allow me to explain
The case and power supply are very important to the overall quality and reliability of a PC system. Using cheap power supplies and cases can result in overheating, system errors and other problems. If you are buying a pre-made system you will rely on the engineers who created that system to worry about this. However, if you are building your own PC, or specifying components for an assemble-to-order PC, be sure to keep this in mind: you may regret trying to save $10 or $20 here.
I recommend Thermaltakes because I have worked with all types of case.
The thermaltake case uses the same design theory as the Apple G5 pulling the air through the front and out the back _EFFECIENTLY_ lessening the aforementioned problems.
You have no idea how good they are until you work with one.
And I have never bought the most expensive things around or latest, none of the items I mention are new apart from the card because its worth the extra.
and seriously, you have no idea what your talking about Sam - and I hope this guy doesnt follow your advice because he'll end up with a very average piece of kit that will be worth jack.
slaughteruall
27-05-04, 15:28
lol, no I build computers and work for a computer retailer as Sales and Technician and understand why its important to get a quality case.
Allow me to explain
The case and power supply are very important to the overall quality and reliability of a PC system. Using cheap power supplies and cases can result in overheating, system errors and other problems. If you are buying a pre-made system you will rely on the engineers who created that system to worry about this. However, if you are building your own PC, or specifying components for an assemble-to-order PC, be sure to keep this in mind: you may regret trying to save $10 or $20 here.
I recommend Thermaltakes because I have worked with all types of case.
The thermaltake case uses the same design theory as the Apple G5 pulling the air through the front and out the back _EFFECIENTLY_ lessening the aforementioned problems.
You have no idea how good they are until you work with one.
And I have never bought the most expensive things around or latest, none of the items I mention are new apart from the card because its worth the extra.
and seriously, you have no idea what your talking about Sam - and I hope this guy doesnt follow your advice because he'll end up with a very average piece of kit that will be worth jack.
This is the bigest load of shit i have ever seen. A case is a case man. so your saying my 30$ case i use on my computer should make it run like shit. But wait it does not. Get a case with good airflow and that is what matters. Only differance between non name brand and name brand is the price you pay.
Come on now my main rig cost me a little over 800$ and it's running at 2.346 gigs. Explain that one? A cheap case. With your theory i should be crashing all the time stable long enough to load windows and that is it. I mean it's a 30$ case must be a POS computer. I agree when you are building a computer you get what you pay for. But not on a case my freind. I hope nick listens to everyone here but you. You are steering him in the wrong direction. I bought a antec P-160 for my video editing rig because i needed the 120mm intake/exhaust. That was the most expensive case i have ever bought. I needed that since i will be running 2 2600M's OC'd to around 2.2 to 2.3 gigs each in there. That and i thuoght it looked sweet.
Slaughter
lol, no I build computers and work for a computer retailer as Sales and Technician and understand why its important to get a quality case.
Yeah, and Future Shop employees in the computer department will tell you a hard drive doesn't way very much more when it's full of information.
If you are buying a pre-made system you will rely on the engineers who created that system to worry about this
Please, pre-made systems are shit. Go buy a fucking dell, crack it open and look at the cable management. They are just slapped together. Airflow restricted in all the wrong places, etc. etc.
The thermaltake case uses the same design theory as the Apple G5 pulling the air through the front and out the back _EFFECIENTLY_ lessening the aforementioned problems.
... that hurt my head. That's like saying a Honda Civic is one of the best cars, because it uses the same design theory as a Porsche, that is, pulling air in the front over the rad.
You have no idea how good they are until you work with one.
I have worked with them. And I've worked with the Antec one's that were around BEFORE thermaltake made them, the one's thermaltake COPIED, the one's that are actually made by a company called chieftec/chenming and antec simply buys the cases from them, stamps "ANTEC" on the front bezel, and charges $100 more. Thermaltake is the same deal, as well as they strap on a bunch of pointless "look it has knobs" type shit such as the fan speed controller on the front and all that other bullshit like LED fans.
and seriously, you have no idea what your talking about Sam - and I hope this guy doesnt follow your advice because he'll end up with a very average piece of kit that will be worth jack.
I bet my computer - one based around similar parts - brings your computer to it's knees AND my penis is bigger.
Oh, and your paragraph about power supplies causing overheating as obviously copy and pasted from your stores website, or it's from some brochure that they have you read before sending you out to the sales floor. Aside from having a shitty power supply, this one case my friend picked up was a no name, cheapo (under $20) case, and you know what? The motherfucker has EIGHT mounts for 80mm fans, four in, four out. Best fucking airflow I've ever seen. It was a modders dream.
And JUST because I feel like I haven't been quite sarcastic enough:
http://www.thermaltake.com/images/products/xaser3/whiteSeries/interA.jpg
vs
http://images.forbes.com/images/2003/10/17/g5_front.jpg
Which one's which? They're practically the same!
I stand corrected. It would appear as though you 'paraphrased' from here:
google ownage (http://www.pcguide.com/buy/req/budgetWorst-c.html)
(read the last bullet)
slaughteruall
27-05-04, 15:51
I stand corrected. It would appear as though you 'paraphrased' from here:
google ownage (http://www.pcguide.com/buy/req/budgetWorst-c.html)
(read the last bullet)
heh i love stupid people who copy and paste crap. I will get in on the comp bench marking also. We can settle this i mean i only have a 30$ case.
Slaughter
I'm sorry, your opinion isn't valid, your case didn't make up at least 25% of your total system cost.
Wait wait, I don't even HAVE a case, so what does that mean? It must mean my computer doesn't work at all!
haha and that site also says going below 64mb of memory is not reccomended!
Regardless of the source or any brand preference that advice is sound. Case design and layout is important.
Remember that when you talk about Branded PCs the design criteria are not the same ones you apply to your home-build box. They want a PC that is going to cause minimal ongoing costs in terms of failures and support overheads. One key way to do this is to underload every component. Compaq/Dell etc don't perform worse in benchmarks than custom boxes because they are idiots - it's by design. By dropping 10% off the performance they can save a fortune in the future and the vast majority of their customers are happier that way.
___T-X____
27-05-04, 16:02
no mate google ownage is this.
clicky (http://www.hardcoreware.net/reviews/review-67-6.htm)
Please go to the conclusion.
I cant be arsed typing when someone else has done it for me :)
XP1800+ o/c to xp2800 stable on air...i doubt it.
And when you place the order for your pc, remember im one of the guys that would be putting it together. I guess I know nothing :(
Edit: [EMAIL=heh i love stupid people]
Erm, im the one with 3 pcs who doesnt have to budget like a cheapskate or ask if that pc would be ok to run NC . Good job you see, well paid - building pc's
Case design and layout is important.
Not in the way he is claiming. All cases are going to draw air in from the front and push it out the back when you install fans facing that way. Airflow matters, but not really that much unless you are overclocking. The Barton 2500+ has a maximum internal die temperature of 85C.
By dropping 10% off the performance they can save a fortune in the future and the vast majority of their customers are happier that way.
That's common sense. But on top of that, they use proprietary shit and they use crap components, which is why they never list "A7N8X Motherboard with nforce ultra 400 chipset!" they list "Intel chip at 2.6GHz!" and in small print its a celeron. And "120GB hard drive!" yeah, does it have 8mb of cache? what's the seek time? none of that is listed because that's where they cut corners.
And that wasn't google ownage. That was a link to a review site that showed a 6C difference in case temperatures. Note that they list only one CPU temperature there, meaning that it had no real significant impact on the chips temperature. On top of that, you're comparing one case to a new generation of case with more fans and a fucking BLOWHOLE ON THE TOP OF THE CASE.
That's the difference that aluminum construction and two extra fans makes. I think the biggest difference is probably the blowhole at the top since hot air rises.
christ the cases compared there weren't even made of the same material.
Throwing two extra fans in any case is going to improve the ambient temperature by 5 degrees or so.
Good job you see, well paid - building pc's
More like well paid because you're a fucking salesman who's job is to sell shit that people don't need.
I happen to run my own system building business as well as write software. gg thx?
___T-X____
27-05-04, 16:14
im out this thread now, theres nothing to be gained. Feel free to try to slag me off in it since I wont be reading it to defend myself.
I'm not here to slag you, I'm here to prove you wrong, if you're not going to defend yourself or continue to argue that I don't know anything, then I'm done too, this guy was offering me some money to build his system for him so I wasn't about to just let you keep making stuff up.
___T-X____
27-05-04, 16:19
like I made the links up that were posted (one by you)...aye good one.
later
slaughteruall
27-05-04, 16:19
XP1800+ o/c to xp2800 stable on air...i doubt it.
And when you place the order for your pc, remember im one of the guys that would be putting it together. I guess I know nothing :(
Erm, im the one with 3 pcs who doesnt have to budget like a cheapskate or ask if that pc would be ok to run NC . Good job you see, well paid - building pc's
You dont think a 1800 can run at 2800 on air? Hell yeah it can. My 1700 is running faster then a stock 3200+ on air. Run on over to Overclockers (www.ocforums.com). And do some reading.
Oh geez you have 3 computers. I bow down to you. Being cheap is not even envolved in this. It's called being smart with your money. What company do you work for?
Slaughter
they use proprietary shit and they use crap components, which is why they never list "A7N8X Motherboard with nforce ultra 400 chipset!" they list "Intel chip at 2.6GHz!" and in small print its a celeron. And "120GB hard drive!" yeah, does it have 8mb of cache? what's the seek time? none of that is listed because that's where they cut corners.They aren't "shit" or "crap". They are what their customers want - cheap and reliable. Dell do use NForce2 boards for instance because it's the cheapest and most reliable chipset. As for labelling, everyone pushes the line there - independants and corporates though
you know, when you start the game with NL-Pro, then you lose a lot of FPS ^^
just use normal NL, with the modified files, and then live with having to alt+tab if a bad song starts.
-////
Nice comp, 512 more ram would be advised tho.
___T-X____
27-05-04, 16:25
are you two brothers ?
Never you mind who I work for, but just hope it aint the place you get yours built.
And all this came about because you 2 think Thermaltake cases arent worth the money, well I disagree - so what ?
EDi:/ i really am out of this now, theres far more interesting things to do than listen 2 u 2 jokers
slaughteruall
27-05-04, 16:26
They aren't "shit" or "crap". They are what their customers want - cheap and reliable. Dell do use NForce2 boards for instance because it's the cheapest and most reliable chipset. As for labelling, everyone pushes the line there - independants and corporates though
How can dell use nforce2 boards? Dell only uses INTEL chips. The nforce chip set is for AMD only.
Slaughter
/edit: i dont even know what server sam plays on. let alone where he lives. so no where not brothers.
They aren't "shit" or "crap".
Yes, yes they are. What CAS latency does the memory work at? fucking 3.0? Please.
They use cheap parts because that's what their customers want, but don't claim it's not shit - dells are shit, when you buy a dell, you are buying shit because all you NEED is shit. or you don't know better. which I'd say is their main market.
(one by you)...aye good one.
Your conclusions were made up, genius.
but just hope it aint the place you get yours built.
Trust me, even if you liked me, I'd hope you weren't the one building the computer.
How can dell use nforce2 boards? Dell only uses INTEL chips. The nforce chip set is for AMD only.
Slaughter
Doh, yes you are right. Whoever my last company bought their last batch of desktops from before I left then - we used to use Dell and I left as they were looking at alternatives due to bad customer service. The principal is the same though.
Yes, yes they are. What CAS latency does the memory work at? fucking 3.0? Please.
They use cheap parts because that's what their customers want, but don't claim it's not shit - dells are shit, when you buy a dell, you are buying shit because all you NEED is shit. or you don't know better. which I'd say is their main market.
Do you really run your own business and have that little grasp over how business works? You are assessing their value solely on a criteria that is at best secondary to both the vendor and the customer. They may not be what you or I would want or even tolerate in our own systems but they are the best option for that market. A market many times larger than the "performance" PC one.
You are assessing their value solely on a criteria that is at best secondary to both the vendor and the customer.
Which isn't the market I am geared towards. I run a small business, not a corporation. You're also stating supposed truisms that are infact merely specific to only one market - as I said, people who shop from Dell, buy shit because that's all they need. They don't give a fuck about performance, they just want something that will load AIM or allow them to run Excel. Then, there are the people who don't know, and buy anyway, but that's not what I'm debating.
The FACT is, Dell systems are poor performers. You're contradicting saying "They're not poor performers, and they make them perform poorly on purpose". I'm saying I sell systems that don't perform poorly - that are based on a criteria for people who want a system that costs a bit more but has exactly what they want in it and they know what they want. I do consultation before the purchase, explain what they are getting, and in fact, I do say "just go buy a dell" to some 'customers', because they just want to surf. It's just a side job to make a bit of extra cash, usually a few hundred bucks a month. It's what I use to pay for my toys.
And that has nothing to do with a grasp of business, you're grasping at straws trying to find new ways to insult me. Even if I was the CEO of Dell and selling the systems, I'd still know the systems are still shit - would I say that out loud? No, it's bad for business, but that's fact vs. marketing.
The thermaltake xaser cases suck fucking ASS. I am sorry but I am not paying for a case just to advertise THERMALTAKE on every square inch of it.
Fucking bullshit lol. Get a grip, it might have thermaltake on it...mine has it on the front only lit up by LED's....
Tell me one thing shit about them please
The reason they are good :
Has a temperature LED monitor standard with control for 4 fans.
Has 7 case fans standard, all silent to the ear.
Has excellent ventalation.
Has locks for both the front panel, allowing you to open either the first bit for the cd's drive access or for the installation of the cd drives/fan removal
Has a lock for the only side panel able to open up, making it pretty thief resistant if you are a LAN type of person....granted they could just take the whole PC but that would be a bitch to explain trying to get out.
Has good looks...better than any other case ive seen except ones people have made themselfs (race car cases etc..)
Is built like a brick...you could drop it and it wouldnt dint and probably would'nt break any components.
Has no screw pci/agp/cd/HDD drives.
I could go on forever why thermaltake cases are quality and all you can pull out your ass is "Its got thermaltake written all over it" :lol:
If you want to disregard your older, wiser and larger competitors that's your call.
I worked for a small company that thought as you seem to when I left university. I've seen these arguments before from every single angle and I can assure you that all a superior attitude and dismissal of the majority players in your market will get you is a new job.
I'm not trying to insult you or anyone else. I am merely pointing out that several things you have tried to present as facts in this thread are in fact just opinions and in some cases highly biased ones.
If you only do this for a hobby then you don't need to consider the points I made in the previous post but if you do this for a living you would be wise to open your mind a bit.
If you want to disregard your older, wiser and larger competitors that's your call.
I can't really refute this, because yes they are making more money, but they're making money by exploiting people's lack of knowledge about their products in many cases. And in others, they are serving a fine purpose, mass marketing cheap expendable systems. That's fine. They can do that. I, on the other hand, make my money by selling to customers with a different set of criteria. It's as simple as that. Just because Dell make's a lot of money doesn't mean their products are great, more what it means is that they are great as selling cheap products. The same goes for most of the large corporations - Nike, anyone?
I worked for a small company like that thought as you seem to when I left university. I don't even count as a company, but you've got to understand, you are in a thread with someone who I was going to make money off of - someone who didn't WANT to get the prepackaged system and HAD a different set of criteria, which is why I am debating the things I am debating. If this was a "How well will this system surf the internet?" thread, I wouldn't be arguing with you at all.
Has good looks...better than any other case ive seen except ones people have made themselfs (race car cases etc..)
yay for premodded shit. *twirl*
Has a temperature LED monitor standard with control for 4 fans.
yay, so you can monitor the temperatures that you shouldn't have to worry about anyway with your
Has 7 case fans standard, all silent to the ear.
That are consuming 35W or so extra power, but you can turn 4 of those already silent 7 fans down even more! or turn them up? which makes sense to have 4 loud ones and 3 quiet ones or vice versa.
Has locks for both the front panel, allowing you to open either the first bit for the cd's drive access or for the installation of the cd drives/fan removal
Great, so no one steals your cdrom drive or preses the eject button! Even though the front panel is plastic and they could just snap it off. (Unless the new ones have a metal panel, but all the others have plastic ones)
Has a lock for the only side panel able to open up, making it pretty thief resistant if you are a LAN type of person....granted they could just take the whole PC but that would be a bitch to explain trying to get out.
Yeah, except that you're talking about the steel one 'built like a brick' which is a heavy ass fucking thing to carry to a LAN party. And granted they could just buy their OWN xaser case which uses the SAME key for everything and then your super anti-theft mechanism is defeated - and hey, who's going to argue with the guy with the key saying "no, it's my PC"?
Has no screw pci/agp/cd/HDD drives.
Most cheapo cases are coming with rail-installed screwless drive mounts.. not a big deal anymore. Was back in the days of the first ones.. not anymore.
And you know, this all stems from me trying to argue that there's nothing wrong with getting the Antec LANBOY case. If you want to drop the money on a Xaser, go for it, but don't argue that it's the best buy. It's overpriced for the features it has, but if you have the money, who cares. Just like I will say, if you have the money, sure, get a X800. But don't say that a 9800 is worthless.
I'm content with getting a cheap $15 case and doing all sorts of mods to it on my own that end up giving it all the great features of the Thermaltake one, without the stupid advertising, and without the extra shit (fan controller? Please, do the 7V mod instead and have them stay silent).
I can't really refute this, because yes they are making more money, but they're making money by exploiting people's lack of knowledge about their products in many cases. And in others, they are serving a fine purpose, mass marketing cheap expendable systems. That's fine. They can do that. I, on the other hand, make my money by selling to customers with a different set of criteria. It's as simple as that. Just because Dell make's a lot of money doesn't mean their products are great, more what it means is that they are great as selling cheap products. The same goes for most of the large corporations - Nike, anyone?
I don't even count as a company, but you've got to understand, you are in a thread with someone who I was going to make money off of - someone who didn't WANT to get the prepackaged system and HAD a different set of criteria, which is why I am debating the things I am debating. If this was a "How well will this system surf the internet?" thread, I wouldn't be arguing with you at all.
I was only responding to points raised by yourself and others. If people ask for advice I'm always glad to help. I see little point dragging personal bias into a technical discussion and I never suggested that Nick should buy a Dell or even criticised the system you were offering him. I merely commented on a few points raised by yourself and others which were less than 100% accurate. When discussing technical issues accuracy is paramount and dismissing an option as "shit" without a balanced justification is bad practice.
FYI - MJS uses a Dell and apparently never crashes in NC. ;)
"shit" without a balanced justification is bad practice.
It does have a balanced justification. Anything a Dell can do, a self-built system will always do better.
And as for the NC thing, that sort of makes sense in an outer limits kind of way.
looks at his pc and sighs :(
It does have a balanced justification. Anything a Dell can do, a self-built system will always do better.
Maybe, it's hard to say and varies depending on the customer.
Big companies like Dell can offer warranty levels a small company can't come close to. They also offer most home users a level of confidence and comfort that is hard to put a price on.
Even from a technical standpoint it's tricky - you can match their specs easily but can you be sure that your system will be as reliable for as long. Remember their customers may keep that PC for 4 or 5 years, probably won't treat it very well and won't do ANY maintenance on it.
If your PC fails in 35 months will you still have the parts on the shelf to fix it or be happy to replace it with a newer model? Dell, Compaq, etc. aren't just selling you a pile of parts, they also sell all the tangible and intangible fringe benefits that people like us don't care about for our home systems.
Personally I stopped building PCs for people years ago. Mostly because I felt obliged to try to offer them a level of support I knew they needed even if they weren't paying for it. IMO if someone can't build a PC for himself or has a friend/relative on hand to support him FoC for it's lifetime then he should buy a brand-name system.
Samhain....
Honestly, what case would you buy then? a £5 one. Its called "OPTIONS"....Its obvious the type of person you are...you sound just like the owner of my old local pc shop which i never goto anymore...i would rather get something imported from the other side of the planet than goto his bitch ass shop.
"Can you order me a 9700PRO please?"
"Why the fuck do you want one of them when you can get a GEFORCE 4 MX440 for £1 and it does everything the 9700PRO does"
You bitch about something because its there..."it has 7 fans, but whats the point when it has excellent ventalation ...you only need 2 fans" omg man...go get yourself a cheap case and go have fun with it getting overheated and no slots for extra fans and bad ventalation THUS lots of fucking dust in your pc, THUS your pc lifespan reducing, THUS things breaking, FANS STOPPING, FANS GETTING CAUGHT UP WITH SHIT, YOUR WARRANTY "BYE BYE", yeah go get one of them cases, at least i wont need to listen to your bad points why something is crap because your pc will be full of shit, like you.
Why the fuck do you want one of them when you can get a GEFORCE 4 MX440 for £1 and it does everything the 9700PRO does"
A retarted example. You're an idiot.
You bitch about something because its there..."it has 7 fans, but whats the point when it has excellent ventalation ...you only need 2 fans" omg man...
Exactly. Why bother? So you have more fans, thus need that slightly more powerful PSU - hey, that the fucking case didn't come with anyway..
go get yourself a cheap case and go have fun with it getting overheated and no slots for extra fans and bad ventalation
did I say the only way to go was cheap? no, and infact I ALREADY mentioned I had found a cheap case that had EIGHT fan mounts. There are other cases - such as the LANBOY, which are nice. Or the oldschool chenming ones that antec relabels, which have the screwless mounts and the locking shit as well. Or, what about the nice kingwin ones that have the motherboard tray, a very useful thing that the xaser does not.
THUS lots of fucking dust in your pc, THUS your pc lifespan reducing, THUS things breaking, FANS STOPPING, FANS GETTING CAUGHT UP WITH SHIT,
More fans = more airflow = more dust. And how is MORE fans going to reduce FANS GETTING CAUGHT UP WITH SHIT. You're going to have MORE fans caught up with shit, MORE fans that end up making noise when they get full of dust. And "ventillation" makes no difference when it comes to dust, what matters is air pressure and air flow. And there's this wonderful thing called compressed air that will help with the dust problem which you will eventually need even with your super expensive fancy pants case. ON TOP OF THAT, you can practically get a cheap case + low end WATER COOLER for the cost of that xaser, and just use a dremel to cut open a spot to put the heatercore. Silent, much? Better cooling, much? Less air flow thus less dust, much?
YOUR WARRANTY "BYE BYE", yeah go get one of them cases, at least i wont need to listen to your bad points why something is crap because your pc will be full of shit, like you.
You're an idiot. Warranty bye bye? first of all, dust does not void a warranty. Even if enough dust built up to cause the cpu to overheat, they all have thermal protection and if there was that much fucking dust in the case, no 7 fans or super ventillation or magic LCD ("LED") screen is going to save you. On top of that I've said several times now I don't USE a case let alone does anything I buy have a warranty :P the day I got my 9500-non pro I took an x-acto knife to it to pry off the gpu shim
anyway, I know your type, you can pull out your fancy case that's all modded that you did none of the work yourself and your CS buddies go huhuhu that's 1337 dude omg. and I'll be sitting there with my custom built one that's watercooled, that's more quiet, faster, and less expensive.
[edit]
also fun to point out the only thing you really responded to was the fans, you gave up on the rest of the over hyped bullshit.
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