Whatever happened to the JoaT?

[ResurgencE]

Y'know, from an unbiased perception of the PE class, i would assume that this particular character could do anything the other classes could do, just not as well as any of them. Meaning they could perform any task within moderation.

Perhaps a little elucidation is in order.

Some of the advantages of the tank: Ability to use high-TL heavy weaponry, gun every kind of vehicle imaginable, and spec amazing natural resists and armour so that they really shine in OP wars with ppus, etc.

Some of the advantages of the Apu: Lovely offense, high int for a quick tradeskill if you like, ability to debuff ppus, etc.

Some of the advantages of the ppu: Excellent defenses, ability to buff/heal/rezz party members, high int for a quick tradeskill, etc.

Some of the advantages of the spy: Can cap high TL rifles/pistols/drones, can stealth, and are arguably the best class for high lvl tradeskilling. They can prove to be excellent hackers (might be the ultimate hacker without gimpage with the advent of Hacknet), can drive anything (including the new gliders), and with drugs, can even duel very well.

Thats all well and good. Now...Whats the role of the PE?

The PE could once gun vehicles barring the best ones with ease. They have an excess of str points because they can cap natural resist force at 114, and need little trasport, so HC was viable. But they raised the str restrictions on gunning even the mid-lvl vehicles (not combat), so we lost that.

The PE could use melee weapons upto a certain point. The TL has been raised. Even with drugs, you cannot reach the rares.

The PE could use the lower lvl stealth tools. They've been made spy-only. They cant do that either.

So...Whats my point? Do i want all these things, especially stealth, back? Heck no. PEs should never have gotten stealth in the first place. My point is that the PEs were able to use the lower level toys of the other classes (but not the highest-end) to make them a worthwhile class. They could do anything another class could do, just not as well. But KK soon realised that though the PE couldnt gun a rhino without gimpage, stealth with an obliv or hack away with a DG, the items they DID have access to overpowered them.

So in essence, PE variation is extremely limited. The point of being a JoaT is being able to do alot of things but WITHOUT gimpage. Why? Because all those things that can be done are medium level. If the PE wishes to specialize in a field which is covered by the other 3 classes, THEN he should be gimped.

What is the point in playing a PE now? I can make a carbon copy of a PE with a spy who has high lvl stealth, a capped high-TL weapon and a drug for shelter. Thats what bugs me.

If i want to use heavy weapons, have excellent resists/armour and gun vehicles, i make a tank. If i want to have amazing dmg output, no reticle and antibuff for ppus, i go with apu. If i want to be the healer and rezzer of the team, i take ppu. And if i want to use any skill efficiently without gimpage, like cst/res/rep/hack/Vhc/imp etc, i make a spy.

So whats left for a PE? Yes, the PE can still access mid-lvl items of all those 3 classes. But he has to GIMP himself to do so now. As mentioned earlier, he should only have to gimp to specialize in those fields, and not to just be a novice in it. The problem is that the mid-lvl prospects open to the PE like stealth, etc. were just not right.

Im talking about the monotony. Theres nothing special about the PE class to really make him unique. Hes just a lesser version of the spy, with slightly better natural resists. No other combat-oriented PE is as viable as one with pistols/rifles. HC/melee/apu/droner/whatever PEs are just a novelty. Heck, even for PISTOLS, i have to tone down my defense considerably in order to cap my weapon, so one or the other gets gimped. If i use rifles, i need a drug for the highest-end rifle. I mean, whats the PE there for anyway? Just a stepping-stone to figure out what you wanna be when you're a newbie?

Are PEs weak? No. Do they need a boost? No. Do they need diversity? Yes.

[/Edit: On a side note, could those who have voted 'no' kindly step forward and discuss their stance, so that we can come to a conclusion that will satisfy the entire community? Thanks.)

[Epsilon 5]

PEs are simply in between .. because they have no specialty doesn't mean they aren't any good. They are tougher than spies, yet weaker than a tank, can use any weapon however not as well as a tank or spy, and can use basic protection and enhancements from ppu monks .. they can also drive if they wish, repair, implant, hack outposts ...

Spies are very weak .. before the spy PAs and stealth spies were much less used in PvP battles, and they still die rather quickly.

PEs DO have versatility.

and because you won't be able to use a melee weapon with a swirly next patch doesn't mean melee PEs have been nerfed. IT'S JUST A SWIRLY.

[VetteroX]

sorry, but a spy is not weak. My spy has good resists over 400 hp, and good speed. He uses a slasher, which is sickly powerful. He can stealth (which pes cant next patch) and theres a 10 minute + 5 psi drug next patch so drugging for sheter will be no problem.... why should I play my PE? I love PE's but honestly... my spy will have same runspeed, shelter, almost as good resists, (remeber I get a free 100 and something xray from my pa... that frees up a lot of points) like 30 less hp, have MUCH more firepower, and be able to stealth, by just using one 10 minute drug.... seriously why play a PE?

[ResurgencE]

Well, nice to know that atleast one of the 3 who voted in the negative had the honour to bring his arguments to the table. Im not bringing all this up because i want MY class to outshine the others. Ive got more spies, tanks and monks than i have PEs, so im not biased. Nor is this MY game, and everything has to be suited to my liking or ill whine about it. If you have a legitimate argument, ill be the first to accept it, since i want us all to reach a compromise. So please...Whoever votes 'no', back it up with some evidence.

Moving along. Kal writes:


PEs are simply in between .. because they have no specialty doesn't mean they aren't any good.

Never said they arent good. Nor did i state that they should have a specialty (though they should be allowed one with extreme gimpage). But there is absolutely nothing that the PE can shine in even in his OWN field, let alone others. The purpose of this thread is to shed some light on precisely why i would choose a PE over the other 3 classes other than for the novelty feature, when all the other 3 can do everything far better than the PE anyway.


They are tougher than spies, yet weaker than a tank, can use any weapon however not as well as a tank or spy, and can use basic protection and enhancements from ppu monks ..

So im just playing a dumbed down version of the other 3 classes rolled into one? I cant do a single thing as well as any other class, and have literally no versatility. The only thing you pointed out which a PE can do is :


they can also drive if they wish, repair, implant, hack outposts ...

Which a spy can do BETTER, without having to gimp themselves as much as a PE would.


Spies are very weak .. before the spy PAs and stealth spies were much less used in PvP battles, and they still die rather quickly.

However, they do have PAs and stealth now. Ive tested Tux's and magnazan's spies, and i found fighting several people with them fairly easy, especially in big zones. 2 ppus with TSS, tanks, apus, spies...None of them could find me, and i kept picking them off from a distance. Am i leet? No. Most good spies can do even better than i can, since i dont really play the spy. But can a PE do that? Comes the next patch, even stealth 1 is a goner. So my moneys on...no.

In close-up brawls, a PvP-oriented pistol spy can set his imps up to easily incorporate PP + moveon with his SF and SA, throw in a str 2 backbone and wear lvl 1 inq/duranit. Throw in a heavy belt, PA with 100+ xray, set your resists up right, drug up for shelter and TA-DAH. You have zee Super PE! Mind you, this spy also uses TL 113 pistols with greater capacity than a PE could ever hope to, while retaining runspeed and the stealth, and lets not forget the oodles of leftover int for run-casting heal and like a gazillion points in, hmm...say, hack.


PEs DO have versatility.

No. They DID have versatility. They could stealth for 10 and 20 seconds, but not longer than a spy. They could gun vehicles, but not the higher-end ones like the tank. They could opt for melee, the one route which prolly wasnt cookie-cutter at one point but was at the same time viable (Droning PE, apu PE, ppu PE, even HC pe...All novelties). Thats gone too. Now, let me state for the record that i have NO problem whatsoever with these changes. I never made a melee PE, i hardly ever stealthed on my PE (got so used to my tank and monk that when i went back to PE, i would keep forgetting to stealth), and i seriously dont think a PE should ever be able to gun everything a tank can.

But take a look at what the PE was to what it is now. There were so many choices, so many routes to take up simultaneously. I relied on my other chars for combat, so i temporarily got him some VC and HC and enjoyed hunting with a 4x4 (Higher-end combat vehicles = gimpage for PE again). He could stealth. He could do a lot of things, all at the same time. So he was a welcome break from specialisation. Now the PE is just the character who tries to specialise in everything he cant, but hes forced to anyway.


and because you won't be able to use a melee weapon with a swirly next patch doesn't mean melee PEs have been nerfed. IT'S JUST A SWIRLY.

So the only way a PE can hold a rare in his hands is if its either a rifle or a pistol? So much for versatility.

And Fyi, the rares are always better than their non-rare counter parts. A CS will always be better than a TPC. A libby will always be better than a TL 63 uzi. A Rolh will always be better than a BS.

The list goes on. So essentially...If i wish to go with melee, WHY would i choose a PE over a tank?

[msdong]

IF neocron would depend more on its Tradeskillers and Drivers everyone would see the Joat ability of the PE. they are not Joat in therms of fighting good with all weapons.

[ResurgencE]

IF neocron would depend more on its Tradeskillers and Drivers everyone would see the Joat ability of the PE.

NC depends on tradeskillers. Spies make better tradeskillers. They can also drive without gimpage, and will prolly be the only ones on them gliders when they're introduced in retail.


they are not Joat in therms of fighting good with all weapons.

So they cannot fight, nor can they tradeskill.

What now?

[/Edit Slight error on the spy setup. Remove PP and install zerk 2 for lvl 1 armour]

[Dribble Joy]

If anything the only JoAT is the spy, and a poor one at that.

JoAT should be able to do everything at an acceptable lvl, but no be able to specialise.
PEs are not JoATs, they simply rely on all main stat lines to be effective.
This means that they have more options with which to speciallise in, but they cannotbe effective in more than one.

Christ how many times have I said that here.

[n3m]

specialisation baby!
well it seems its going that way since beta 3 or something?

[Jesterthegreat]

The PE could once gun vehicles barring the best ones with ease. They have an excess of str points because they can cap natural resist force at 114, and need little trasport, so HC was viable. But they raised the str restrictions on gunning even the mid-lvl vehicles (not combat), so we lost that.
my PE setup has 83 str undrugged... now i dont know the str req's on guns, but i imagine this covers all / most?

The PE could use melee weapons upto a certain point. The TL has been raised. Even with drugs, you cannot reach the rares.
this TL rework is not on retail yet... currently my setup includes VR and elec temp at the least.

The PE could use the lower lvl stealth tools. They've been made spy-only. They cant do that either.
IMO this is good. they should never have had access. defenses second only to a PPU and the ability to disappear, be removed from local, be untargetable... this is not something that should have happened.


So whats left for a PE? Yes, the PE can still access mid-lvl items of all those 3 classes. But he has to GIMP himself to do so now. As mentioned earlier, he should only have to gimp to specialize in those fields, and not to just be a novice in it. The problem is that the mid-lvl prospects open to the PE like stealth, etc. were just not right.

Im talking about the monotony. Theres nothing special about the PE class to really make him unique. Hes just a lesser version of the spy, with slightly better natural resists. No other combat-oriented PE is as viable as one with pistols/rifles. HC/melee/apu/droner/whatever PEs are just a novelty. Heck, even for PISTOLS, i have to tone down my defense considerably in order to cap my weapon, so one or the other gets gimped. If i use rifles, i need a drug for the highest-end rifle. I mean, whats the PE there for anyway? Just a stepping-stone to figure out what you wanna be when you're a newbie?

Are PEs weak? No. Do they need a boost? No. Do they need diversity? Yes.

[/Edit: On a side note, could those who have voted 'no' kindly step forward and discuss their stance, so that we can come to a conclusion that will satisfy the entire community? Thanks.)

right... a PE has not been a JoaT for a long long time.

99% of PE's are using DEX weapons..

PE's have class specific armours...

PE's can have access to any dex weapon they want, without drugs...

however they can attempt to do other things. PE's have mor diversity than say a tank. a tank can go pistols... however why bother? a PE has better defences, aim and RoF than a pistol tank. PE's have a choice as to which stat they make their main stat. they are not a JoaT, but they can attempt to be one.

ignore the instruction manual. throw out your conception of a PE being Joat. this just is not the case and has not been for a long time. think of him as a spy+. able to access the same weapons, with better defences. yes that is depressing for spies, but its the sad truth

[Heavyporker]

even a pistol pe can go H-C as a sideline...

even can pick up a quick tradeskill on the side....

so in its own right, how is that gimped?

[Dribble Joy]

A pistol PE could only get to about str 70 max without gimping his pistol skill.
Not enough even for a tsg.
His hc without hc imps whould be crap, and FOR without tank armours would be worse than my kami PE.

Re. INT and tradeskills, a PE can only use 'secondary' skills, imp and hack.
Imping 115 is a pain in th arse and hacking can't go very high, enough for OPs but barely.
Things spies do better.

[Heavyporker]

Grenades, you fools, grenades. And the grenade launchers.

Oh, and laser cannon.

Now with that, a pistol PE can't complain about bad AoE (nads cover that) or range (laser covers that).

[Dribble Joy]

Grenades are appaling and besides the minirocket and tangent epic covers range and AoE for pistol PEs.

[Heavyporker]

Grenade launcher is more accurate than a mini-rocket pistol. WAY more.

Plus you get the awesome bouncing physics... You wouldn't believe how much fun you'll have banking shots around corners and down pits.

[ResurgencE]

Quick responses to all:


This means that they have more options with which to speciallise in, but they cannotbe effective in more than one.

No, its supposed to mean just that...That they CANNOT specialize in anything, yet be fairly effective at everything. Jack of ALL trades.

With the recent patches and the incoming ones, the PEs been reduced to a glorified spy.


my PE setup has 83 str undrugged... now i dont know the str req's on guns, but i imagine this covers all / most?

Thats an HC pe. My Pistol PE was able to gun a 4x4 without gimping hismself in the slightest with his dex-based skills. Now he cannot. Thats the point.

(And no, i dont want THAT back. Im asking for diversity.)


this TL rework is not on retail yet... currently my setup includes VR and elec temp at the least.

Thats nice. And i already know that. But once the patch hits, you no longer will be able to, so i dont see your point.


IMO this is good. they should never have had access. defenses second only to a PPU and the ability to disappear, be removed from local, be untargetable... this is not something that should have happened.

I have mentioned that stealth should never have been in the hands of a PE atleast umpteen times in my post.


PE's can have access to any dex weapon they want, without drugs...


Even TL 113 pistols or TL 115 rifles? And do they cap damage/rof on them? Yes, i know they're not supposed to. But a SPY can, and he can also drug for shelter and stealth. So why make a high-tech PE?


however they can attempt to do other things. PE's have mor diversity than say a tank. a tank can go pistols... however why bother? a PE has better defences, aim and RoF than a pistol tank. PE's have a choice as to which stat they make their main stat. they are not a JoaT, but they can attempt to be one.

That doesnt make sense. I fail to see the diversity. A PE cannot be a ppu or apu, and the latter two cannot use dex-weapons effectively. Of course a PE with pistols will be more effective than a tank, but a tank with cannons is MORE effective than an HC pe. Again, this made no sense.


ignore the instruction manual. throw out your conception of a PE being Joat. this just is not the case and has not been for a long time. think of him as a spy+. able to access the same weapons, with better defences. yes that is depressing for spies, but its the sad truth

Why ignore the manual? Why throw out my conception of the PE being a joat? If hes not even THAT, what good is he? I have already delineated all the routes to take, be it pistols, spells, cannons, drones, tradeskills, or what have you. Every other class is preferable to the PE.

The PE may have a slight edge over the spy in defense, but the spy has the advantage of capping higher-tl weaps without gimping for them at all, so they're essentially even. If the PE wishes to use an exec, there goes his defense, down the toilet.


even a pistol pe can go H-C as a sideline...

If hes pistols, why would he go HC? Im looking for things for the PE to do which hes useful at, not novelty features. And besides, HC pes just dont cut it as well as tanks, so why would i make an HC pe? I made an HC tank instead.


even can pick up a quick tradeskill on the side....

Gimped. And all that gimpage for nothing, because you'll never be as effective.

If this is really the way you guys think, then i think its time to revamp the entire class, because ive already pointed out to you the inherent flaws in it. Its a novelty class. Every class does everything better. The LEAST the PE should be able to do is do it all, at lower levels.

[Jesterthegreat]

Quick responses to all:
Thats an HC pe. My Pistol PE was able to gun a 4x4 without gimping hismself in the slightest with his dex-based skills. Now he cannot. Thats the point.

(And no, i dont want THAT back. Im asking for diversity.)

you complain you arent a JoaT, yet you use all +dex imps and call yourself a Pistol PE. if you were trying to be a JoaT you would accept some +str imps where needed. dont use all your imps to specialise in 1 stat, then complain you dont have enough of another stat


Thats nice. And i already know that. But once the patch hits, you no longer will be able to, so i dont see your point.

indeed i did have a post about this which Callash replied to. for the record PE's wont be able to use all melee weapons (which is good... thats getting closer to what a PE should be! now they just need the same treatment for dex based weapons. they shouldnt be able to use all the rares!) melee damage will be based on TL, so a MC PE will do the same damage, if not more, after the TL rework.


I have mentioned that stealth should never have been in the hands of a PE atleast umpteen times in my post.
and i wasnt disagreeing... merely stating my opinion



Even TL 113 pistols or TL 115 rifles? And do they cap damage/rof on them? Yes, i know they're not supposed to. But a SPY can, and he can also drug for shelter and stealth. So why make a high-tech PE?

if you are talking about spies drugging you have to talk aboutPE's drugging. a PE can use TL 113 / 115 weapons without drugging. with drugs they can use better combat imps, allowing them better efficiancy. they may not fully cap the weapons, but you cant just compare the offensive of 2 classes. a PE using an exec or a FL has a noticable advantage over a spy using an exec or FL. spies can get good resists. they can get good body health. however it is extremely hard to get both without chomping on resist drugs... and if spies do that, whats to stop PE's inproving on their great defence by doing the same?

why make a high tech PE? some people forget this is an RPG. the beuaty is you can be whatever you want. i love my MC PE. it is alot of fun. its not cookie cutter, but i like it! and if you think a high tech PE is not worth making, there are a few people on Uranus i would like you to fight. I'm sure there are similar players on other servers, but i only know them on Uranus.


That doesnt make sense. I fail to see the diversity. A PE cannot be a ppu or apu, and the latter two cannot use dex-weapons effectively. Of course a PE with pistols will be more effective than a tank, but a tank with cannons is MORE effective than an HC pe. Again, this made no sense.

you seem to be complaining that each class has a specific role... not that this single class should be capable of anything. PE's can be effective at HC and MC (though not as effective as tank). this is what you said? thats the idea! a JoaT should be able to use HC or MC effectively, but not master it like a tank does. i agree that things should change. i think a PE should be able to use the first 2 rares (if that) of each weapon class (except Psi), but be able to use the others too. PE's should be combat efficiant using all weapons, but not excell at any. at the moment most Pistol / Rifle PE's beat most Pistol / Rifle Spies. this is not right.
[/quote]
Why ignore the manual? Why throw out my conception of the PE being a joat? If hes not even THAT, what good is he? I have already delineated all the routes to take, be it pistols, spells, cannons, drones, tradeskills, or what have you. Every other class is preferable to the PE.
[/quote] this is an MMORPG. MMORPG's are always evolving. the manual wont keep up with the game unless its updated (which it isnt). and throw out your conception of a PE being a JoaT because its false. maybe you want it to be a JoaT. maybe you think it should be a JoaT. but thinking it is a JoaT is incorrect.

The PE may have a slight edge over the spy in defense, but the spy has the advantage of capping higher-tl weaps without gimping for them at all, so they're essentially even. If the PE wishes to use an exec, there goes his defense, down the toilet.
again. there are a fair few PE's i think you should fight / see fight. just because a PE uses an Exec does not mean his defence is shit. even a high tech PE has better defences than any class, bar PPU's. yes a low techer will have better defence, because he has space for PPR / moveon, however high tech PE's are hardly lower in the defence table than spies.



If hes pistols, why would he go HC? Im looking for things for the PE to do which hes useful at, not novelty features. And besides, HC pes just dont cut it as well as tanks, so why would i make an HC pe? I made an HC tank instead.
so... your pure pistol PE, who refuses to put points in other things isn't a JoaT... and your suprised by this?


Gimped. And all that gimpage for nothing, because you'll never be as effective.

[/quote] you seme to miss the point of JoaT's completely. they are notthe best. they are not the most effective. they are people who do muptiple things. Don't complain PE's are not JoaT's when you use a purely cookie cutter setup!


If this is really the way you guys think, then i think its time to revamp the entire class, because ive already pointed out to you the inherent flaws in it. Its a novelty class. Every class does everything better. The LEAST the PE should be able to do is do it all, at lower levels.

a PE can do it all at lower levels! however i do agree they should be able to do at least 50% at the same time. a HC / PC / hacking PE should be effective. not as effective as a Tank / spy / hacker combo of course... but thats the point! Jack of all trades, master of none.

[Drake6k]

I'm a PE. My first character was a the same PE. Ive played every other class before but I stay with my PE. I'd rather nothing change... right now I'm not getting nerfed and I dont suck. If anything KK should add more content for everyone and the PEs would have some more weapons or whatever to use.

[ResurgencE]

Thank you.

Now, for your refutation.


you complain you arent a JoaT, yet you use all +dex imps and call yourself a Pistol PE. if you were trying to be a JoaT you would accept some +str imps where needed. dont use all your imps to specialise in 1 stat, then complain you dont have enough of another stat

Maybe because some str imps and dex imps cancel one another out? Or screw up int? The HIGHEST stat on the PE is dex, and i have NO problem whatsoever in PEs being restricted even only to pistols/rifles. What i want is versatility in the form of new content, because things like stealth werent supposed to be in the hands of the PE, and they've been patching all forms of versatility out of the class (which is absolutely fine, because those tools were overpowering). But ffs, what is LEFT for the PE to actually DO?


indeed i did have a post about this which Callash replied to. for the record PE's wont be able to use all melee weapons (which is good... thats getting closer to what a PE should be! now they just need the same treatment for dex based weapons. they shouldnt be able to use all the rares!) melee damage will be based on TL, so a MC PE will do the same damage, if not more, after the TL rework.

I had already suspected that the damage on melee would be the same for PEs, and augmented for HC tanks. So WHY make a melee PE when you can make an MC tank?!


if you are talking about spies drugging you have to talk aboutPE's drugging. a PE can use TL 113 / 115 weapons without drugging.

Please. Show us this wonderful setup in which a PE can use a TL 115 weapon without drugging.


with drugs they can use better combat imps, allowing them better efficiancy.

You do not need drugs for combat imps on a PE if you're going all out on dex imps.


they may not fully cap the weapons, but you cant just compare the offensive of 2 classes. a PE using an exec or a FL has a noticable advantage over a spy using an exec or FL. spies can get good resists. they can get good body health. however it is extremely hard to get both without chomping on resist drugs... and if spies do that, whats to stop PE's inproving on their great defence by doing the same?

No good spy needs to chomp on resist drugs. The difference between the PE and the spy is the heavy belt and the PA. The natural resists can be factored in to match that of the PE, and with one drug, they have a shelter. The spy caps his high TL weap, the PE does not. The spy can stealth, the PE cannot. Now, NOWHERE in my post have i stated that PEs are weak. I even spelled it out for you, that i believe they should NOT get a boost. Do you not understand? Im NOT asking for a boost, im asking what the point is in being a friggin PE. They're nearly the same as spies, except spies have more options. Im not talking about a PE being weak. Im talking about it being flawed in concept.


why make a high tech PE? some people forget this is an RPG. the beuaty is you can be whatever you want.

Thats very poetic, but lets be pragmatic, here. Once a person is skilled enough, he realizes the potential of the pistol spy over that of the PE. Vetterox did as well. Did you not understand what he was trying to say?


i love my MC PE. it is alot of fun. its not cookie cutter, but i like it! and if you think a high tech PE is not worth making, there are a few people on Uranus i would like you to fight. I'm sure there are similar players on other servers, but i only know them on Uranus.

I dont have to come to uranus. I have a high-tech PE and a low-tech PE myself, and i have fought plenty of some of the best PEs on Saturn. I did not say that a hi-tech PE cannot FIGHT, and thus hes not worth making. I said the spy can do the SAME thing, and if YOU think they cannot, come to Saturn and fight some hi-tech pistol spies with extreme defensive setups. ill line them up for you.


you seem to be complaining that each class has a specific role... not that this single class should be capable of anything. PE's can be effective at HC and MC (though not as effective as tank). this is what you said?

No, that is not what i said. Every class is SUPPOSED to have a specialist role except the PE, and the PE should NEVER be able to match them in their respective roles ungimped. However, he should have his own trademark of fighting (Which KK has already implemented, because we have 80 dex), and should be able to do a bit of what every other class does WITHOUT gimping himself. If he gimps, then he should have just gone with the specialist class in that field anyway, because the specialist can do it naturally WITHOUT gimping and can ALSO be highly effective at it. Do you undertstand, now? Look, ill make it even simpler.

Prior to all these patches, a PE could use a Judge, have lovely defensive capabilities, drive vehicles of all sorts, stealth, hack, run-cast, etc. etc. The RoF on judge would be slightly compromised, but he could still do the rest of the activities, thus making him a bit of everything. He wouldnt be able to GUN a rhino, or FLY a glider, or remain STEALTHED for an entire minute, or even CAP his gun if it was very high in TL. No, he could do it all, but all in moderation. Drive lower TL vehicles, stealth for less time, gun lower TL turrets, etc....All, WITHOUT gimping himself to oblivion. If you have to GIMP to do it, then might as well go with the specialist.


at the moment most Pistol / Rifle PE's beat most Pistol / Rifle Spies. this is not right.

Wait a bit. You'll see what im talking about next patch.


this is an MMORPG. MMORPG's are always evolving. the manual wont keep up with the game unless its updated (which it isnt). and throw out your conception of a PE being a JoaT because its false. maybe you want it to be a JoaT. maybe you think it should be a JoaT. but thinking it is a JoaT is incorrect.

The manual might not be updated, but if they HAVE changed the concept of the PE from being a JoaT to a nobody, and you see nothing wrong with it, then i cannot possibly get the idea to sink into your head that the concept which KK originally started out with has been destroyed. For you to say it is NOT a joat, or atleast not supposed to be one, is equally absurd.


again. there are a fair few PE's i think you should fight / see fight. just because a PE uses an Exec does not mean his defence is shit. even a high tech PE has better defences than any class, bar PPU's. yes a low techer will have better defence, because he has space for PPR / moveon, however high tech PE's are hardly lower in the defence table than spies.

There you go. You just admitted that hi-tech PEs are not lower in defense than spies. But they ARE nearly equal, and the spy caps his weapons. I dont give a flying shite who wins. I want the PE to be able to fight and do some lesser tasks simultaneously without compromising his ability to fight. Not just fight, and thats it. And once again, i really dont need to take a trip to uranus. The competition on Saturn is high enough to further confirm what i am saying.


so... your pure pistol PE, who refuses to put points in other things isn't a JoaT... and your suprised by this?

Ok...Clearly you're having difficulty understanding me. You seem to think that i want melee PEs to be as effective as MC tanks. I do NOT want that. I want PEs to be less effective, but also be able to do a few things that the HC tank cannot. Nothing overpowering. Just something to make me deliberate over the choice of making a melee tank or PE.

Furthermore, in response to what you just said, i do NOT want PEs to be able to wield two weapons of different genres simultaneously. KK introduced the kami chips to try out hybrids, and to compensate, screwed up the defense of the wearer. It would be nothing short of ridiculous if i was claiming that i wanted the PE to be able to use everyone weapons. I specifically stated that i wanted to PE to be able to do more things which all the specialists can at the same time, but not as efficiently. Meaning the specialist could stick to one or two things and be amazing at them, but the PE could do 3 or 4 things simultaneously and be noticeably good at them. I gave you an example of stealth 1 using pistol PEs. Now, before you start putting words in my mouth again, im not claiming that stealth should be given back to PEs. Im saying that the PE should be able to perform some tasks at a moderate level of each class without gimpage, but never be as good as the specialist even WITH gimpage.


you seme to miss the point of JoaT's completely. they are notthe best. they are not the most effective. they are people who do muptiple things. Don't complain PE's are not JoaT's when you use a purely cookie cutter setup!

Wtf? The setup i delineated above in which i could perform all those tasks was cookie-cutter? And what in God's name could you possibly mean when you say that PEs can do multiple things? They COULD do multiple things. Now thats all history, and the spy can do all those things as well, only better.

Im not the one who doesnt comprehend the meaning of a JoaT. Its you who seem to be confused. A JoaT is NOT a class that can pick any one route and stick with it, like the melee PE. Thats SPECIALISING. The JoaT is the one who can do what everyone does, but not as well as anyone, all at the same TIME. Otherwise by your own example, even a TANK can be a JoaT because he can use pistols, just not as well as a PE or spy.


however i do agree they should be able to do at least 50% at the same time. a HC / PC / hacking PE should be effective. not as effective as a Tank / spy / hacker combo of course... but thats the point! Jack of all trades, master of none.

A PE has been given 60 str so that they cannot get to the rare HC weapons. Its you who thinks that a PE should be able to wield more than one type of weapon. I certainly said no such thing. And by the way, that HC pe of yours is going to need some force resists.


a PE can do it all at lower levels

A spy can do it all at higher levels. A little bit of con here and there isnt going to change much, unless you can magically wear a heavy belt and slap 120 + xray on your armour and somehow fool the stealth tool into thinking your a spy. Remember, the spy can run-cast too, and his weapon is going to hurt. So perhaps the PE will win. Perhaps the spy will win. The point is, the PE is nothing but a dumbed down spy, in that case.

[ResurgencE]

Just for the record, what im trying to explain to Jester is that i dont want PEs to have access to all the primary weaps of all classes.

What i want for them is to have the little things, like for example how they can dmb while spies and tanks cant. Things like that.

[Jesterthegreat]

Maybe because some str imps and dex imps cancel one another out? Or screw up int? The HIGHEST stat on the PE is dex, and i have NO problem whatsoever in PEs being restricted even only to pistols/rifles. What i want is versatility in the form of new content, because things like stealth werent supposed to be in the hands of the PE, and they've been patching all forms of versatility out of the class (which is absolutely fine, because those tools were overpowering). But ffs, what is LEFT for the PE to actually DO?
ah... you want a jack of all trades, without sacrifising DEX. this makes no sense to me at all. a JoaT should be good at everything, but great at none. you say you have a high tech PE later in the post... i bet he has 100+ dex, and you wonder why he isn't a JoaT?



I had already suspected that the damage on melee would be the same for PEs, and augmented for HC tanks. So WHY make a melee PE when you can make an MC tank?!
because PE's defence is far better? low tech PE = better than tank defence. MC PE = able to use better armour without drugs... is able to damage boost (unlike tanks).



Please. Show us this wonderful setup in which a PE can use a TL 115 weapon without drugging.



You do not need drugs for combat imps on a PE if you're going all out on dex imps.



No good spy needs to chomp on resist drugs. The difference between the PE and the spy is the heavy belt and the PA. The natural resists can be factored in to match that of the PE, and with one drug, they have a shelter. The spy caps his high TL weap, the PE does not. The spy can stealth, the PE cannot. Now, NOWHERE in my post have i stated that PEs are weak. I even spelled it out for you, that i believe they should NOT get a boost. Do you not understand? Im NOT asking for a boost, im asking what the point is in being a friggin PE. They're nearly the same as spies, except spies have more options. Im not talking about a PE being weak. Im talking about it being flawed in concept.

show me your setup with equal defences (or close to) to a PE and ill show you one with 115 dex undrugged. by equal defences i mean a combo of resists / armour / shelter + deflector / health. we can all setup a spy with good resists, however my MC PE (for example) has 140 NRG / Xray / Fire resist and 500 health undrugged (or so says the skillmanager. i dont think they are 100% accurate but its a good guide).


Thats very poetic, but lets be pragmatic, here. Once a person is skilled enough, he realizes the potential of the pistol spy over that of the PE. Vetterox did as well. Did you not understand what he was trying to say?
to be completely honest with you i didnt read this entire thread. i just gave my opinion on the threads first post. and if its that obvious PC spies are so much better... why do i see a hell of a lot more PC PE's than spies?



I dont have to come to uranus. I have a high-tech PE and a low-tech PE myself, and i have fought plenty of some of the best PEs on Saturn. I did not say that a hi-tech PE cannot FIGHT, and thus hes not worth making. I said the spy can do the SAME thing, and if YOU think they cannot, come to Saturn and fight some hi-tech pistol spies with extreme defensive setups. ill line them up for you.

oh i play saturn... I'm not a high level as of yet, but i will be finding out how the PvP is there. from what i have heard they rely more on numbers than skill... but i shall see first hand when i bother to cap there. and without quoting you i beleive you said whats the point of making a high tech PE.


No, that is not what i said. Every class is SUPPOSED to have a specialist role except the PE, and the PE should NEVER be able to match them in their respective roles ungimped. However, he should have his own trademark of fighting (Which KK has already implemented, because we have 80 dex), and should be able to do a bit of what every other class does WITHOUT gimping himself. If he gimps, then he should have just gone with the specialist class in that field anyway, because the specialist can do it naturally WITHOUT gimping and can ALSO be highly effective at it. Do you undertstand, now? Look, ill make it even simpler.
the thing is... what do you consider they should do?

a PE could easily gun / drive a trike as well as using pistols or rifles... but would you consider that? no. these days unless we can use a select few weapons (CS / HL / RoLH / RoG etc) we consider it to be pointless. I bet both your PE's use rare weapons... and yet you dont consider using all PC / RC/ Dex inplants as gimping yourself on (what you claim should be) a JoaT.

Prior to all these patches, a PE could use a Judge, have lovely defensive capabilities, drive vehicles of all sorts, stealth, hack, run-cast, etc. etc. The RoF on judge would be slightly compromised, but he could still do the rest of the activities, thus making him a bit of everything. He wouldnt be able to GUN a rhino, or FLY a glider, or remain STEALTHED for an entire minute, or even CAP his gun if it was very high in TL. No, he could do it all, but all in moderation. Drive lower TL vehicles, stealth for less time, gun lower TL turrets, etc....All, WITHOUT gimping himself to oblivion. If you have to GIMP to do it, then might as well go with the specialist.

again this is a very select statement. you talk about driving all vehilces. using a weapon that requires 100 dex (which is the natural dex cap for the specialised class) you talk about hacking. i bet you mean 100 skill or more?

if you are aiming for a JoaT char don't think like this! drive and gun a combat hovertech... hack WB's... use a lower TL weapon. rares arent the only choice. if you WANT to be a JoaT the choice IS there! however we all believe that you need to put everything you have into one combat skill to PvP. your proof that PE's arent JoaT's is that they cant fdo all these things? well a spy hacker hacks 100+. are you saying your JoaT should do that as well as other things? the poiintis he shouldnt. you dont want a JoaT... you want to have the best at everything!


Wait a bit. You'll see what im talking about next patch.

I'm not sure what this was supposed to mean... i was pointing out that most PE's beat most spies. this is true as it stands. if you are talking about the proposed changes... well... as KK said when it changed DoY dates / payment... they are only proposals.
[quote]
The manual might not be updated, but if they HAVE changed the concept of the PE from being a JoaT to a nobody, and you see nothing wrong with it, then i cannot possibly get the idea to sink into your head that the concept which KK originally started out with has been destroyed. For you to say it is NOT a joat, or atleast not supposed to be one, is equally absurd.

no... i never said it should not be a JoaT. i think it should be. what i said is that given the changes KK have made to the game, a PE is not a JoaT. do not demand that since a piece of documentation thats over ayear old in a constantly evolving game is incorrect.


There you go. You just admitted that hi-tech PEs are not lower in defense than spies. But they ARE nearly equal, and the spy caps his weapons. I dont give a flying shite who wins. I want the PE to be able to fight and do some lesser tasks simultaneously without compromising his ability to fight. Not just fight, and thats it. And once again, i really dont need to take a trip to uranus. The competition on Saturn is high enough to further confirm what i am saying.

no... you want to use the high level DEX weapons and do all other things. i bet you have not once considered using a non-rare weapon? because thats what a jack of all, master of none would do...

howabout seting uip a PE based on usin a blacksun? people did it in the past and it allows more flexibility in imps / stats... allows more subskills to be used.


Ok...Clearly you're having difficulty understanding me. You seem to think that i want melee PEs to be as effective as MC tanks. I do NOT want that. I want PEs to be less effective, but also be able to do a few things that the HC tank cannot. Nothing overpowering. Just something to make me deliberate over the choice of making a melee tank or PE.
you want HC PE's to do things a HC tank cant do? ok:

drive any vehicle (as well as gun it like a HC Tank can)
hack WB's and still have higher weapon lore than a tank
have better defences (self cast shelter and blessed deflecter)
cast damage boost

all of these are just 1 sub class comparison (HC tank - HC PE). the HC PE is not as effective as a HC tank, but has abilities in other areas, that a specialised tank does not. tanks are classicly either pure weapon lore or a bit of psi use. not many tanks go hack / PSU / weapon lore... but a PE could.

Furthermore, in response to what you just said, i do NOT want PEs to be able to wield two weapons of different genres simultaneously. KK introduced the kami chips to try out hybrids, and to compensate, screwed up the defense of the wearer. It would be nothing short of ridiculous if i was claiming that i wanted the PE to be able to use everyone weapons. I specifically stated that i wanted to PE to be able to do more things which all the specialists can at the same time, but not as efficiently. Meaning the specialist could stick to one or two things and be amazing at them, but the PE could do 3 or 4 things simultaneously and be noticeably good at them. I gave you an example of stealth 1 using pistol PEs. Now, before you start putting words in my mouth again, im not claiming that stealth should be given back to PEs. Im saying that the PE should be able to perform some tasks at a moderate level of each class without gimpage, but never be as good as the specialist even WITH gimpage.

you misunderstand... i mean either not both. and PE's can perform some tasks at a moderate level... however you expect to use pistols or rifles at a rare level... and still do other things at a moderate level. try doing everything at a moderate level! Jack of all trades, master of none



Wtf? The setup i delineated above in which i could perform all those tasks was cookie-cutter? And what in God's name could you possibly mean when you say that PEs can do multiple things? They COULD do multiple things. Now thats all history, and the spy can do all those things as well, only better.
they can... if you stop insisting on using rare DEX based weapons you would need a lot less dex. the req's on things havent changed... the players change. now PE's aim for PA3 and a RoLH etc... before they were fine with titan armour and a blacksun / lib combo.

Im not the one who doesnt comprehend the meaning of a JoaT. Its you who seem to be confused. A JoaT is NOT a class that can pick any one route and stick with it, like the melee PE. Thats SPECIALISING. The JoaT is the one who can do what everyone does, but not as well as anyone, all at the same TIME. Otherwise by your own example, even a TANK can be a JoaT because he can use pistols, just not as well as a PE or spy.
then tell me... have you tried making a JoaT PE? i doubt it. i bet both your low tech and high tech PE's use rare weaponry. rares are the high level items... you use these and then want to use other things on top of that! it is you who doesnt understand Jack of all trades. you think it means using all +dex imps, using PA, using rare dex weapons, and wanting to hack / drive / PPU / gun vehicles / etc... stopusing rares! thats you attempting to MASTER a trade!



A PE has been given 60 str so that they cannot get to the rare HC weapons. Its you who thinks that a PE should be able to wield more than one type of weapon. I certainly said no such thing. And by the way, that HC pe of yours is going to need some force resists.

i have no HC PE. i have a MC PE. and how many HC Tanks spec Resist force? a HC PE has access to the same (or maybe slightly lower...i dont know the req's offhand) armour AND blessed deflector. a HC PE will have better defences than a HC tank.


A spy can do it all at higher levels. A little bit of con here and there isnt going to change much, unless you can magically wear a heavy belt and slap 120 + xray on your armour and somehow fool the stealth tool into thinking your a spy. Remember, the spy can run-cast too, and his weapon is going to hurt. So perhaps the PE will win. Perhaps the spy will win. The point is, the PE is nothing but a dumbed down spy, in that case.

a PE is easily able to use different skills... should he choose to. i am having to repeat myself as the answer is the same for most of your points.

stop using the high level weaponary. stop using all +dex imps. stop thinking you can put everything into 1 idea (be it pistol PE or rifle PE) and still have medium of all other abilities.

I am at my dads house at the moment, and am without my skill manager. however if i need to i will PM you a setup that allows you to be a JoaT. it will not include rare weapons. it will allow you to use pistols, hack warbots, drive vehicles, etc...

that is what a JoaT is.

dont think of hacking as op hacking.

dont think of driving as using a troop carrier.

dont think of using a pistol as using a rare pistol.

stop thinking you need to do all these amazing things to me "moderate" in all of them. ops are one of the hardest things to hack. rare pistols are one of the hardest to use (skill / stat wise). troop carriers are the hardest to drive.

a JACK OF ALL TRADES would want to drive a medium vehicle. use mid level guns, hack at a reasonable level.

however what you want to do is excell as everything.

[Herbitt]

Agree'd resurgence. I dont play my PE anymore so i deleted him for someone who can:

A. Be good in OP fights

and

B. Farm Techs :D

Yes, made a melee tank :D

[Jesterthegreat]

Agree'd resurgence. I dont play my PE anymore so i deleted him for someone who can:

A. Be good in OP fights

and

B. Farm Techs :D

Yes, made a melee tank :D

PE's having the best defence in the game and having the possibility to go either HC / MC / PC / RC and hack made him a bad choice for tech farming? O_o

and if you think PE's are useless in an OP war... you really need to work on strategy. they feature in our clans OPwars alot.

[msdong]

NC depends on tradeskillers. Spies make better tradeskillers. They can also drive without gimpage, and will prolly be the only ones on them gliders when they're introduced in retail.



So they cannot fight, nor can they tradeskill.
....


if you know the gliders you know that all bombers/attack gliders can be piloted and gunned by PE and not by spys.

PEs can hack fair good

and PE can doo good weapons when they construct.

they are not as good as spys BUT they can do some stuff from spys, from tanks and from psi.

joat is fair good not perfect.

[Carinth]

I thought PE's could only get 112 dex.

mc5 rigger's dream (+6), mc5 sa (+6), sf, sri (or any 2 other +5 dex mc5 chips), exp reflex 4 (+5), pa4 (+5)

[n3m]

hmm yeah, with a riggers dream you can get 112 max.

That will give you a nice base rank, but like I said ingame: a gimpy ho

[Agent L]

IMHO Joat :
- no PE PA
- no class restrictions at normal PAs

So PEs should be able to reach 1-2 of spy and tank PAs .
There goes H-C, M-C, P-C and R-C PEs, pistol and rifle tanks, basicaly allowing all combinations.

PEs imho should be able to use stealth too, however real problem with stealth is that lower TL stealh is no worse than highest.

[QuantumDelta]

PE's having the best defence in the game and having the possibility to go either HC / MC / PC / RC and hack made him a bad choice for tech farming? O_o

and if you think PE's are useless in an OP war... you really need to work on strategy. they feature in our clans OPwars alot.
Gonna have to call you on that one mate.

PEs may have better resists than a Tank, but, Tanks will have close-to-the-same resists, and will have 100hp more health. (So as the PE will take 40 damage from a CS blast from 400 hp, meanwhile the Tank will take 45 from 500 hp) - ( fictional numbers to try to illustrate my point easier to the general public ¬.¬)

PEs have equal resists to a spy trying to attain the same DEX Level (assuming we're talking about best of best), the difference of about 30hp and the spy runs faster.

PEs have a resist and health advantage over APUs, however APUs are faster and deal significantly more damage.

[ResurgencE]

ah... you want a jack of all trades, without sacrifising DEX. this makes no sense to me at all. a JoaT should be good at everything, but great at none. you say you have a high tech PE later in the post... i bet he has 100+ dex, and you wonder why he isn't a JoaT?

First off, if i dont get atleast 100 dex, which rare pistol will i be using? You yourself stated that PEs should be able to use the first 2 rares of all kinds, atleast (which i dont necessarily agree on). So kindly list atleast 1 hi-tech rare pistol under dex 100 for my hi-tech PE to use.

Secondly, by sacrificing anything at all in my setup, i am gimping myself to perform tasks which other chars can more easily do. ill give you a simple example of driving. Sir Crashalot, the HC tank (perhaps MC now), used to drive a hover. No real gimpage there. My MC tank drives a hover. No gimpage there. My Apu drives a hover. Again, hardly any gimpage. Spies? Heh..You guessed it. So all these classes can effectively drive a hover with less gimpage than a hi-tech PE, who NEEDS those points to take him 5 skill lvls higher in PC/RC to do better dmg and have a better rof on his hi-tech weapon.

If i sacrifice skills to do half of what i could do before, i wont be a jack of all trades, ill be a gimp of all trades. And a hover is a very simple example. So by definition, the spy should be the jack (and master) of all trades, because he has 20 more dex and 40 more int, which is sufficient for him to diversify. Couple that with the fact that a pistol spy is built and fights exactly like a PE, except with stealth, and you have your answer.


because PE's defence is far better? low tech PE = better than tank defence. MC PE = able to use better armour without drugs...

THATS a JoaT? Thats a SPECIALIST.


is able to damage boost (unlike tanks).

NOW we're getting somewhere. This is precisely what im talking about. I'd like to see PEs be able to handle small skills which other classes cannot perform. The spy, the pure apu, the tank...they all have one thing in common. They cannot dmb like the PE mid-fight. And it isnt horribly overpowering either, because not only does it have a slower RoF while casting, essentially leaving you vulnerable for a bit, but it also can be countered with drugs. So it is useful to have, is not overpowered, AND is something only a JoaT could handle, as the only other specialist who can pull it off at a greater RoF is the ppu (i know about hybrids.)

So it is not STEALTH for the PE that i liked. It was the concept of performing low lvl tasks of other specialists without gimpage. If you need to gimp, then go the specialist route and reroll another character.


show me your setup with equal defences (or close to) to a PE and ill show you one with 115 dex undrugged.

I just gave you a pistol spy setup (albeit not every detail, since that should be left to the player to figure out) a few posts back. So if the PE is using an exec, he has lower def than a low-tech PE and his gun if not as effective as the spy. So the spy's slight lack in defense is compensated for. If the PE is low-tech and has greater defense, his gun wont do as much dmg as the higher TLs, and his aiming will be slightly compromised. Its all balanced out. Thats not even the point, here.


by equal defences i mean a combo of resists / armour / shelter + deflector / health. we can all setup a spy with good resists, however my MC PE (for example) has 140 NRG / Xray / Fire resist and 500 health undrugged (or so says the skillmanager. i dont think they are 100% accurate but its a good guide).

The outdated skillmanager is slightly off on the HP, though newer ones have been released. Regardless, you are comparing an MC PE to a hi-tech spy. You specifically said a hi-tech PE vs a hi-tech spy. You can use better armour because of the str, and better resists because u dont need the dex points except for TC. Thats a fair comparison? Your PE is just a wannabe MC tank at this point. The JoaT should always be proficient in his main skill (dex) and have diversity in all the other 4 stats. As an MC pe, you are a specialist, not a JoaT.


to be completely honest with you i didnt read this entire thread. i just gave my opinion on the threads first post. and if its that obvious PC spies are so much better... why do i see a hell of a lot more PC PE's than spies?

Because PEs can still stealth, and they can still zone out of certain areas into safe zones (DoY = No safe zones, perhaps excluding HQs, dunno). And by the way, you see people playing PEs because they ARE a good class. Nobody's denying that the PE is a good fighter. It is only you who seems to think thats what im saying. Im saying that in order for the PE to be a JoaT, he has to gimp. Otherwise, to be a good fighter, he has to be a specialist. THATS the point. NO WHERE in this thread will you find me asking for a boost for PEs. Please re-read everything i have said, because you are still misinterpreting what im saying.

In fact, i was having a discussion with other very good hi-tech PEs, and even they are of the opinion that in order to do anything besides fight, they'd have to gimp their main skills. And also, we all came to the conclusion that the max dex you can get on a PE with extremely gimped implants = 112. So you still need to drug for an exec or HL or whatever, and your defenses are far lower, because you're getting +32 dex from everything. Have a nice time drugging up then removing PA and casting BR3. Atleast if the spy has a drugflash from drugging for shelter, he can stealth until it wears off.

This thread is NOT about spies being superior in combat than PEs. Its about how all 3 specialists can specialise in their respective fields and be the best, but the PE as a JoaT needs to specialise as well and be second best. I want a dex-weapon PE with various capabilites borrowed from each class. That is how most other games work. For example, you have a fantasy game. You have the choice between picking an Ogre, a sorceress or a human for your character. The ogre has unsurpassed strength. The Sorceress uses magic. The human can do both, but at lower levels than both, but still remain effective because both skills compliment one another. If the human had to GIMP himself to either be proficient in strength or wizardy, why in god's name would i pick him?


oh i play saturn... I'm not a high level as of yet, but i will be finding out how the PvP is there. from what i have heard they rely more on numbers than skill... but i shall see first hand when i bother to cap there. and without quoting you i beleive you said whats the point of making a high tech PE.

And im still saying it. Whats the point? All you can do is fight. To perform any other tasks (which have mostly been patched out anyway) would result in gimpage. Must i repeat this over and over? Uptil now, most of the PEs i have spoken to on Saturn have the same perception. So when you 'bother' to cap there, lemme know what you think about the PvP.


the thing is... what do you consider they should do?

I have reiterated time and time again that i think the PE should have more versatility in performing different tasks, like how can dmb or stealth without any real gimpage.


a PE could easily gun / drive a trike as well as using pistols or rifles... but would you consider that? no. these days unless we can use a select few weapons (CS / HL / RoLH / RoG etc) we consider it to be pointless. I bet both your PE's use rare weapons... and yet you dont consider using all PC / RC/ Dex inplants as gimping yourself on (what you claim should be) a JoaT.

A spy can perform that with even less gimpage and still be proficient with the highest-lvl weapon. For a PE to do it, you expect to sacrfice his RARES as well? What should i use on my hi-tech PE, a blacksun? If i cannot even use a rare, is that NOT gimping?!


again this is a very select statement. you talk about driving all vehilces. using a weapon that requires 100 dex (which is the natural dex cap for the specialised class) you talk about hacking. i bet you mean 100 skill or more? if you are aiming for a JoaT char don't think like this! drive and gun a combat hovertech... hack WB's... use a lower TL weapon. rares arent the only choice. if you WANT to be a JoaT the choice IS there! however we all believe that you need to put everything you have into one combat skill to PvP. your proof that PE's arent JoaT's is that they cant fdo all these things? well a spy hacker hacks 100+. are you saying your JoaT should do that as well as other things? the poiintis he shouldnt. you dont want a JoaT... you want to have the best at everything!

Wrong. I want the PE to be proficient in dex-based weapons, and be able to do other things at the same time. Hacking wbs? The spy, the monk AND the melee tank can all do the same. Thats your definition of a JoaT? So all the other 3 specialists are also JoaTs?

At one point, my PE could drive a 4x4, gun it, stealth, dmb, run-cast heal, have good defenses and wield a judge. Now he cant do half of those. Meaning hes just a fighting class. If he wants any of those other skills you mentioned, he'll have to gimp himself even more because of his lower stats. I dont want the PE to be the best at EVERYTHING. I want him to be good at one thing, and average in some other things which other specialists cannot do without relying on other specialists. If i was asking for EVERYTHING, i'd claim that i wanted PEs to be able to fly gliders, gun rhinos, stealth, and use execs all at the same time without gimpage.


no... i never said it should not be a JoaT. i think it should be. what i said is that given the changes KK have made to the game, a PE is not a JoaT. do not demand that since a piece of documentation thats over ayear old in a constantly evolving game is incorrect.

Rather, the way you think is incorrect. If the PE is not a JoaT as the manual illustrates, then you have successfully eliminated the 'Human' character in the fantasy game. So whats to prevent me from making an Ogre or a sorceress? The game may be evolving, but such a fundamental aspect should not. And if it has, its taken a step backwards, not forwards. So if you really think that the PE SHOULD be a JoaT, wtf are we debating on? You should be agreeing with me.


no... you want to use the high level DEX weapons and do all other things. i bet you have not once considered using a non-rare weapon? because thats what a jack of all, master of none would do...

The 'master' is the one that can use the highest TL weapon with virtually NO gimpage, and cap it. The JoaT is the one who can aspire to it, still not reach all the highest TLs, not be able to cap what he CAN reach, AND has to gimp himself for it. That does not mean, therefore, that i should have to resort to non-rares when there are lower TL rares at my disposal. But those lower TL-rares take up all my resources, so where're the other trades for me to be a Jack of? (Get it...Jack off? Hyuk!)


howabout seting uip a PE based on usin a blacksun? people did it in the past and it allows more flexibility in imps / stats... allows more subskills to be used.

Fyi, i used to have a blacksun PE myself. It is the ONLY alternative to a rare, and that too, is nowhere close to other rares. Furthermore, since its a non-rare, it's stats are low when constructed, so you still need quite a bit of PC/wpl, even with a high-slotter. Granted, not as much as a rare, but again...Thats gimpage.

Not a valid argument.


you want HC PE's to do things a HC tank cant do? ok:
drive any vehicle (as well as gun it like a HC Tank can)
hack WB's and still have higher weapon lore than a tank
have better defences (self cast shelter and blessed deflecter)
cast damage boost
all of these are just 1 sub class comparison (HC tank - HC PE). the HC PE is not as effective as a HC tank, but has abilities in other areas, that a specialised tank does not. tanks are classicly either pure weapon lore or a bit of psi use.


That would be a good example, unfortunately there're a couple of aspects you havent considered.

1) Thats an HC PE. The PEs main stat is dex, and therefore if that is his main focus in the area of weaponry (by your own example, there are a 'hell' of alot more pistol/rifle PEs than HC pes), then how come he cannot be a Joat with it?

2) The MC tank can hack wbs, and hes a specialist.

3) He has no access to rares, which is fine, but thats not being a proficient JoaT. Its another novelty character. Now, in my first point, i explained to you that HC pes cannot use rare weaps. Why do i keep insisting that dex is the primary weapons category for the PE? Because pistols and rifles are the only rares a PE can hold in his hands. It is by design. This in-game mechanism has been implemented by KK to ensure that there is no imbalance. The only other genre of rares a PE could utilise were melee rares. KK has reworked the TLs of that too. So you CANNOT argue the fact that we PEs are supposed to be pistoleers/riflers without gimpage, and yet be able to be a JoaT. Show me an example of a proficient Pistol/Rifle Joat, plz. You've just shown me that in order to drive better vehicles, i need to be an HC pe (which is also specialisation). The JoaT would be able to use his dex-based weaps and still drive something suitable without gimpage, and not have to resort to using non-rares for the rest of his life.

4) All those skills mentioned can be performed by a spy, at way higher levels, and with way better weaponry. Why would anyone make an HC PE with lower proficiency and lower abilities to perform the same tasks?

5) I meant to say MC tanks and melee PEs, not hc tanks. (Contd.)

[ResurgencE]

you misunderstand... i mean either not both. and PE's can perform some tasks at a moderate level... however you expect to use pistols or rifles at a rare level... and still do other things at a moderate level. try doing everything at a moderate level! Jack of all trades, master of none

Having the ability to use lower lvl rares , or gimp and use higher TL rares does NOT make you a master. You are still a JoaT, not a specialist. I fail to see how you even think using non-rares can not be considered gimping.


then tell me... have you tried making a JoaT PE? i doubt it.

A) Thats not a JoaT PE, thats just a gimp. B) I have made a BS-user before, so kindly dont assume prior to asking.


they can... if you stop insisting on using rare DEX based weapons you would need a lot less dex. the req's on things havent changed... the players change. now PE's aim for PA3 and a RoLH etc... before they were fine with titan armour and a blacksun / lib combo.

Even with a Libby i cannot drive the best, gun the best, stealth, or whatever...especially not without gimpage.


i have no HC PE. i have a MC PE.

I know. I was being sardonic about an HC pe's force resist.

Furthermore, my response to this:

a PE is easily able to use different skills... should he choose to. i am having to repeat myself as the answer is the same for most of your points.
I have had to repeat myself an equal number of times, just to get it across to you that such a choice does not exist. Either you're gimped, or you're not.

stop using the high level weaponary. stop using all +dex imps. stop thinking you can put everything into 1 idea (be it pistol PE or rifle PE) and still have medium of all other abilities.
If i do NOT utilise sufficient dex imps, i cannot use my weapon efficiently. And it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out that you can do better with dex-based weaps as a PE, since that is your MAIN stat. And even THEN we're not masters of the dex-based weapons. The other stats are what we should be average in.

I am at my dads house at the moment, and am without my skill manager. however if i need to i will PM you a setup that allows you to be a JoaT. it will not include rare weapons. it will allow you to use pistols, hack warbots, drive vehicles, etc...
Thank you, but that wont be necessary. I had a PE who was viable in PvP and was a joat who could do everything you mentioned above, and still be able to utilise a rare weapon.

that is what a JoaT is.

dont think of hacking as op hacking.

dont think of driving as using a troop carrier.

dont think of using a pistol as using a rare pistol.
I have already told you that a PE should have to gimp to be able to gun a rhino, but NOT a 4x4. And fyi, the PE can hack OPs as well, so i have no complaints about his int abilities. As for not using a rare pistol, that is not a JoaT, that is a gimp. And everyone else here agrees with me on this but you. A hi-tech PE who aspires to use high-end pistols gimps his defense, and rightfully so. He cannot do anything else but fight. Perfectly fine. Thats because he went the SPECIALIST route. But a low-tech PE or a Judge wielder at the max SHOULD be able to perform a few more tasks than just shoot pistols and hack, which is what the spy can also do. That too, especially if he doesnt cap his judge.


stop thinking you need to do all these amazing things to me "moderate" in all of them. ops are one of the hardest things to hack. rare pistols are one of the hardest to use (skill / stat wise). troop carriers are the hardest to drive.
Whats so amazing about being able to gun a 4x4? I never said you should be able to drive or gun a RHINO or troop carrier without gimpage. A 4x4 is in between, and therefore should be accessible. Even as a judge-user, my PE could easily hack ops, so like i said, i have no complaint with that. If they wanna tone down on that, then we wont be able to do belts either, so the PE will be able to hack on the level of a melee tank. And mind you, the monk and spy can also hack. If they introduce HackNet, i certainly hope it will require alot of hck skill so that only an absolutely gimped PE can hack into it. But you're missing the point completely. I think the PEs are absolutely balanced in terms of fighting (more offense, less defense, or vice versa), but since they are JoaTs, they should be able to do MORE things to make them fun to play again. I mean SIMPLE things. Not things which require so much gimpage that you can just go with a spy instead and save yourself the hassle.

a JACK OF ALL TRADES would want to drive a medium vehicle. use mid level guns, hack at a reasonable level.
Thats what im saying. In order for a PE to gun low level vehicles, drive at a low level, have another ability like stealth (as an example), dmb, hack, etc, etc, he shouldnt have to gimp himself. Right now, its all or nothing.

however what you want to do is excell as everything.
Thats an unfounded accusation, and you've just gone on to tell me what im thinking. I never said that.

Now, i apologise for the lengthy post, but i felt this issued needed to be addressed in full.

[Clownst0pper]

SA, SF, Motoric3, Ballistic 3, Exp reflex 4, PA 4 + Redflash = 114 dex

High pistol combat, 89 high tech, and high agility, my old PE with slasher.

TBH - PE's are useless in OP wars, they are like little flys hovering round my head, they do shit all.

OH NO A LIBBY! it hurts so much with my holy shelter and deflector.

If anything PE's make OP fights worse, asking for buffs constantly, when some of us (apus) dont have the ability to self buff.

Half the PE's dont even realise a foreign cast shelter, wont be that much better than there self cast..

[ResurgencE]

hmm yeah, with a riggers dream you can get 112 max.
That will give you a nice base rank, but like I said ingame: a gimpy ho

Agreed. (Hi grimes.)


SA, SF, Motoric3, Ballistic 3, Exp reflex 4, PA 4 + Redflash = 114 dex

He claims he can get to 115 dex UNdrugged. :rolleyes:


TBH - PE's are useless in OP wars, they are like little flys hovering round my head, they do shit all.OH NO A LIBBY! it hurts so much with my holy shelter and deflector.

If anything PE's make OP fights worse, asking for buffs constantly, when some of us (apus) dont have the ability to self buff.


No doubt about it. Which is why i never bring my PEs to op wars.


Half the PE's dont even realise a foreign cast shelter, wont be that much better than there self cast..

Yeh, wtf is up with that? I tried explaining that to a capped PE who i was helping fight off attackers, and he laughed at me. :/ This should be common knowledge. Foreign cast shelters have reduced effectiveness, so the PE should use his own.


Gonna have to call you on that one mate.

PEs may have better resists than a Tank, but, Tanks will have close-to-the-same resists, and will have 100hp more health. (So as the PE will take 40 damage from a CS blast from 400 hp, meanwhile the Tank will take 45 from 500 hp) - ( fictional numbers to try to illustrate my point easier to the general public ¬.¬)

PEs have equal resists to a spy trying to attain the same DEX Level (assuming we're talking about best of best), the difference of about 30hp and the spy runs faster.

PEs have a resist and health advantage over APUs, however APUs are faster and deal significantly more damage.

Very true. Which is what im trying to explain to Jester, here.

[j0rz]

Ok ill tell u mrs dru chip setup but ill be dammed if i tell u wat points shes got

Mc5 SA Sf Riggers exp bal 3 pa 4 :P

[QuantumDelta]

btw, I can get to DEX 117 on a PE, but that sure as hell ain't a combat setup :P

[ResurgencE]

Mc5 SA Sf Riggers exp bal 3 pa 4

Heh, you dont have to. I know what it'll prolly look like. Ive seen the setups of PEs built to wield execs. In fact, i know a RoLH BD pe on saturn who uses the sri, sa, sf combo mixed with one more imp.


btw, I can get to DEX 117 on a PE, but that sure as hell ain't a combat setup

If you tell me you can do that without drugs, im gonna faint. :D

[Dribble Joy]

PE self cast shelter = approx 32% protection.
CAPPED holy shelter foreign cast = 35% protection.
PEs gain virtually nothing from PPUs shields, hence their total uselessness at an OP fight or any other team combat situation.

p.s. max PE dex possible is 124 dex :p.
SA, RD, SF, moto3, expreflex4, pa4 and all 3 dex drugs.

[j0rz]

problem is not many people have sa's

but u can make a lowtech pe and make them godlike i mean -6% dmg on all reisits 105agil 179 pistol combat and all self buffed 462 health

trust me aint no one guna be able to knock that pe on its arse any time soon

hl will hardly hurt cs does 40 dmg thats 12 bursts and ull cap the libby i remember using that set up on mrs dru blood and she at the time was better then my tank j0rz.tnk for pvping in pepper park i dont think i ever lost a 1 on 1 with that setup even when my m8s was using my tank in neofrag

skill has nothing todo with it half the time ;) it's allbout playing on skill manager for afew hours a day :p :lol:

[QuantumDelta]

Yea, sorry Resurgence, it's without drugs, I missed those two words out :P

--
Tradie Gloves :P

[ResurgencE]

lol..Same wavelength, QD.

Just this morning, as i was perusing this thread while goofing off at the office, i was thinking to myself "How the hell does he get that much dex undrugged. Whats he using, a tradeskill glove?". :D

[Dribble Joy]

Begin teh dissection.

but u can make a lowtech pe and make them godlike i mean -6% dmg on all reisits 105agil 179 pistol combat and all self buffed 462 health
How much atl?
Overall resists? 462 hp is ok, but not if you have 90 in your main resists. Balance fools.
179 is excessive for a lowtech libby user, you don't really need totally capped rof, 175 is fine.
Bung the rest.. somewhere else.


trust me aint no one guna be able to knock that pe on its arse any time soon

hl will hardly hurt cs does 40 dmg thats 12 bursts and ull cap the libby i remember using that set up on mrs dru blood and she at the time was better then my tank j0rz.tnk for pvping in pepper park i dont think i ever lost a 1 on 1 with that setup even when my m8s was using my tank in neofrag
Min a CS ever did to a PE was about 38 afaik before the CS got boosted, you won't get below about 55 now, and thats with gimped hp.


skill has nothing todo with it half the time ;) it's allbout playing on skill manager for afew hours a day :p :lol:
Um... yeah.
Right.
Use my kami setup, I'd like to see you hit another pistol PE with a judge at full rpm.

[QuantumDelta]

That 38 hp record is full four plasma bolt impact, head.

It was before the CS boost, and stealth resist nerf, and psi shield/shelter combo nerf, and slight shelter nerf for PEs.

It was, at the time, the absolute minimum damage that could be sustained by a non-holy or non-blessed shelter user.

[Clownst0pper]

Use my kami setup, I'd like to see you hit another pistol PE with a judge at full rpm.

I used to be a kami judge PE also. Was very bizzare, Your potency at damage dealing is scarey, and the speed you run is really nice, I only changed as I had to give the pistol kami back to its owner.

I always found myself feeling vulnerable though, even tho I knew i wasnt, guess its just the conotations of the word kami.

I still think judge is the best pistol in game.. :rolleyes:

[Dribble Joy]

Problem is I'm shit at PvP, unless the other person is crap and/or slow as fuck, then you're only hitting them like you would on a regular judge setup, but with decidedly less defences.

[j0rz]

if ur on saturn i have a pistol kami for a pistol pe with judge and i never had a problem killing people i think afew people on the forum can back me up on that :D

[Dribble Joy]

I was referring to the fact that you seemed think that skill was not part of PvP, and with a kami judge it decidedly IS.
Not that I am good enough to use it.

[j0rz]

I didnt say that
i Said a good set up will not need alot of skill to knock 80% of people on there arse ingame

u dont need a pistol kami to cap the judge either it can be done with a sa n pa 4
long as it's an all 120 judge it's not hard or atleast near cap with while keeping a good agil

and next time read me post i didnt say any thing about pistol kami's did i....

so dont flame me for nothing o_O <-- thats the look of death u got now im loggin me evil hybird :eek:

[Dribble Joy]

I didnt say that
i Said a good set up will not need alot of skill to knock 80% of people on there arse ingame
I still don't agree fully with that, a great setup will allow you to absorb some mistakes you make, but otherwise in my overrated and discountable opinion setup is completely secondary to skill.


u dont need a pistol kami to cap the judge either it can be done with a sa n pa 4
long as it's an all 120 judge it's not hard or atleast near cap with while keeping a good agil
Cap rof? This takes about 196 pc with 100 dex, SA is nice, but if you don't need the dex there are better imps.


and next time read me post i didnt say any thing about pistol kami's did i....

so dont flame me for nothing o_O <-- thats the look of death u got now im loggin me evil hybird :eek:
Dude I'm not flaming you :p.

[j0rz]

res reckon we should take this punk down ;) make him kami pop :lol:

[ResurgencE]

lol...You bet your booties. All i have is a tank kami, and the PC one in his head makes me drool. If we saw him outside a safezone on Saturn, i'd deliberately try to muck up his SL while you used your hybrid to take like a billion pot-shots at him until he finally died.

Oh wait, Kami screws up his energy. Make that a million shots. :p

(Kidding. Your hybrid ownz. ;) )

[Jesterthegreat]

in the 24(ish) hours since i last shecked this thread there has been 2 pages of posts...

also each of the posts directed at me (except QD's) was a massive one... and i really cant be bothered to keep it up :)

the point i was trying to get accross (before getting more and more defensive in each post - my bad :D) was that although it is possible to roll a PE as a JoaT (to some extent), as long as you cand be a specialised DEX fighter, and that is more effective than a JoaT, a PE cannot be classified as a JoaT.

another point that i'm not sure i said was that i wouldnt think of demanding / asking for changes from KK... thi slate into retail if you made PE's true JoaT's people would bitch, whine and prolly quit.

also as i said i wasnt at home, and as such didnt have access to my skill manager. i was on 56k and i couldnt be bothered to have croncom running in the background as well :D some of my points (such as PE dex cap actually being 112 with imps [not including gloves] were indeed incorrect :) i can admit being wrong)

anyway... if you still want to discuss this send me a short PM and ill throw a few setups together to try to prove my points, but tbh i dont think it will acomplish anything anyway. whether we agree or not wont make KK sit up and take notice (or action :))

[n3m]

Agreed. (Hi grimes.)
lo m8 :)


Have to agree with jester here, your posts are fucking huge :eek: lol

[ResurgencE]

lol...My apologies. I guess i got carried away. Just to set the record straight, Jester and i were just arguing our points passionately, and though some of the things we said may have seemed rude, our intention wasnt to be offensive at all. Atleast mine wasnt. So if it seemed that way, i wholeheartedly apologise, and respect your opinion :D

Either way, my only point was that the PE's stat points are perfectly fine, and so are his fighting capabilities. I just think the PEs need a new toy, thats all. Something not as overpowered as stealth, and at the same time not as useless as the holovest.

Oh, and in response to why you see a majority of the PEs wielding pistols, Jester, its because thats the only viable weapon they can use without gimpage, and it also frees up int points for psu/hck etc. :)

[Ozambabbaz]

JoaTs was killed by Specialization patch (163?) and burned, buried, exhumed, pissed upon and disintergrated with Class X reqs

[ResurgencE]

Hell, i dont even mind the other 3 classes getting their own class-based items. After all, they're specialists.

But something new for the PE that offers a little diversity cant possibly hurt. Something thats useful, not required. Also something that another specialist can do better. I suppose one of the other posters here was right. Giving other classes some more toys at different lvls (like how stealth has a 10-second tool, 20-second tool, 30-second, etc) would result in more low-lvl toys for the PE (they could only access stealth 1 and 2, and after the nerf, stealth 2 was even more gimpage).

Once again, im just referring to stealth by way of example. Dont want it back on the PE ever again.

[Archeus]

The correct term is JOATAMON (...and master of none).

Which is what it currently is.

[Ozambabbaz]

The correct term is JOATAMON (...and master of none).

Which is what it currently is.

great, i've been paying for online Pokemon gaming so far? i need some better medication...

[ResurgencE]

The correct term is JOATAMON (...and master of none). Which is what it currently is.

More like its the other way around.

The PE is a master in a select profession (low-tech pistols, for example), and a "JoaT of none".

[ResurgencE]

Quick note:

To all who claim the PE is not supposed to be a JoaT, explain to me why he has all his 5 main stats at moderate levels, not too high, not too low.

A response to this question would be great.

[Archeus]

A response to this question would be great.

Don't dig up old threads.

[Birkoff]

The pat is the past


FORGET IT.

PEs are perfect if not to hard, they use mid lvl armour if u dont drug/spec for higher same as weapons. They use mid lvl psi for a non psi class.

You can cap a lib, poke 115 hack ops, use shelter, use lvl 2-4 armour.

How is that not joat? FFS

[ResurgencE]

Don't dig up old threads.

Ok, sorry.


PEs are perfect if not to hard, they use mid lvl armour if u dont drug/spec for higher same as weapons. They use mid lvl psi for a non psi class.

You can cap a lib, poke 115 hack ops, use shelter, use lvl 2-4 armour.

How is that not joat? FFS

Then i guess my spy is a JoaT too.

You havent read the arguments brought forward, because this has already been disputed.

[Mumblyfish]

Then i guess my spy is a JoaT too.
So what if he is? Who said PEs can be the only JoaT class? Ey? Ey? I bet you're one of those new "homosexuals", isn't it? This is what I pay my taxes for? Bloody refugees!

[ResurgencE]

So what if he is? Who said PEs can be the only JoaT class? Ey? Ey? I bet you're one of those new "homosexuals", isn't it? This is what I pay my taxes for? Bloody refugees!

lol...That cracked me up. :)

The only thing i feel is required is to make the PE less of a wannabe spy or a wannabe tank. Y'know, like the only class to dual-wield pistols.

Sex-ay.