View Full Version : Quetion for Thanatos *** SPOILERS ***
Sorry for directing this at you but here goes:
*** WARNING SPOILERS ***
If you enjoy building items on a specific bench, crouching, drugged like hell or while dancing the Macarena to increase the number of slots you get, do not read the post below!!! It'll ruin your fun
Seriously, go away!
Last chance...
*** SPOILERS ***
Besides slotenhancers, which guarantee 1 to 3 slots, the only way to influence your chance to get slots is to get a construction skill as high as possible.
There are 2 variables in the formula that determines the amount of slots: the quality of the built item and a random number (0-199). Although quality of constructed items has a cap, the quality used by the formula is the theoretical quality, so having just enough CST to reach the build cap for the desired item is far from being optimal. In fact, if the quality is below a certain level, it is not possible to get 5 or even 4 slots. This quality is based on the TL of the constructed item DEX, INT and your CST skill.
So having a high build quality opens up the possibilities to get up to 5 slots. To get the slots, a random number is rolled. If that random number is above a certain number (derived from fixed factors and also the quality), you get 0 slots. For 1 slots, the random number has to be lower than the calculated number above. For 2 slots, it has to be below another number that's lower than that required for 1 slot. Same thing for 3, 4, 5 slots, the random number the game rolls has to be lower and lower. That's why builds with low quality can never get 5 slots, the required number would have to be negative (which it can't be).
As the quality factors into the formula determining the breakpoints for x slots, a high quality means a bigger range of random numbers will be able to get you slots. In other words, it increases your chances to get slots.
Rare weapons are a special case though. In addition to the formula described above, there is another roll for either 0, 1 or 2 additional slots (33.33% chance to get either). That's why rare weapons generally have more slots than non-rares.
Has this just been changed in the last patch?
Serious question.
Speaking to some of my constructor colleagues tonite. We all agreed that since the last patch not only had the number of slots decreased on all items, but also the stats had declined on rare weapons.
I would also like to ask why some Weapons are a lot harder to slot than others. I seem to struggle particularly with plasma weapons and the only 5 slot plasma weapon I have ever built from 3 constructors has been a Cursed Soul.
Why don't t/l 3 items slot everytime? Surely I should be able to carve slots in them like there's no tommorow.
If it has changed then I have to say I'm not opposed to it. I don't mind 5 slotters being uber rare now... not that i churned them out beforehand. But they really do seem to be uncommon thesedays.
Anyway enough ranting... all I want is a gentle nod or a waving of hands... has construction been changed in the last patch?
fail to see any diffrence from wut i already know.
Shadow Dancer
19-05-04, 02:51
v[ortice']
I would also like to ask why some Weapons are a lot harder to slot than others. I seem to struggle particularly with plasma weapons and the only 5 slot plasma weapon I have ever built from 3 constructors has been a Cursed Soul.
Yes please, I want to know this too. Why is it so damn hard to slot a silent hunter?
ASIDE FROM QUALITY, CONSTRUCTION SKILL DOES NOT AFFECT SLOTS! QUALITY CAP = SLOT CHANCE CAP. [ edited ]
ASIDE FROM QUALITY, CONSTRUCTION SKILL DOES NOT AFFECT SLOTS! QUALITY CAP = SLOT CHANCE CAP. [ edited ]
hehe just like how peeps used to say resis was bugged :) and it wasnt bugged :)
keep a open mind u might look smarter ;)
Resist was never bugged. Peeps just didn't know it capped at 114 skill. ;)
Resist was never bugged. Peeps just didn't know it capped at 114 skill. ;)
hehe
i thought capped was 116 when i did my testing and thats y i had the best resis before everyone found out :( but now i know ;)
edit// sorry for the little bit harsh post just tired of peeps just yelling out on peeps trying to get some answers with out being flamed :)
i just regulate the forums my own way :p
ASIDE FROM QUALITY, CONSTRUCTION SKILL DOES NOT AFFECT SLOTS! QUALITY CAP = SLOT CHANCE CAP. [ edited ]Uh, did you READ what Thanatos said????? Here let me assist you:
Although quality of constructed items has a cap, the quality used by the formula is the theoretical quality, so having just enough CST to reach the build cap for the desired item is far from being optimal. In fact, if the quality is below a certain level, it is not possible to get 5 or even 4 slots. This quality is based on the TL of the constructed item DEX, INT and your CST skill.Hey Glok, newflash: having just enough CST to reach the build cap for the desired item is far from being optimal.
So NO, its not just quality. He says that you should SURPASS the ability to cap quality in order to have maximum chances. So NO, quality cap <> slot chance cap. You should surpass quality cap in order to maximize slot chances... and we dont even know there is a slot chances cap now.
Now Mortice-
1. I havent noticed a decrease in slots. Throughout time, constructors have thought slots were decreasing it seems. Not saying things havent changed- just that I cant see constructors ever thinking slots have gone up. :) Currently I am in the slot groove, so I will enjoy it while it lasts.
2. Plasma weapons- well for me, its gatling weaps (and for SD it seems to be sniper rifles). I can slot plasma til the cows come home. I think it comes down to just how the cards fall. I suppose you arent bound to have identical chances on everything. Guess the random num generator over time has turned out poor plasma slots for you (I think that is what the answer will be).
3. Thanny explained why TL3 items wont slot every time.
To get the slots, a random number is rolled. If that random number is above a certain number (derived from fixed factors and also the quality), you get 0 slots.They dont want slots to be guaranteed, so I am sure they made it so its ALWAYS possible to get the number for zero slots. That number is more easily achievable with lower TL items, so TL3 should have the BEST chances to have ANY type of slots. But it will never be guaranteed.
I just built 300 TL20 items, and almost half had SOME sort of slots. Thats not too bad I guess.
I guess they could have changed construction. I dont notice any difference, so I wouldnt be suprised if there is no answer to this query... O_o
Crucificio
19-05-04, 03:03
Where do you buy/find slot enhancers?
Stuff by Thanny.WTF. That wasn't what it used to be! If higher cst now equals higher slot chances, the TL150 cst is officially out of business. Damn.
WTF. That wasn't what it used to be! If higher cst now equals higher slot chances, the TL150 cst is officially out of business. Damn.Yeah man. I was suprised too. O_o
Yeah man. I was suprised too. O_o
Me too. This is the opposite of what he told us before. Has it changed or is there a mis-communication somewhere?
Also - where is the quote taken from?
maybe it was changed, that why the 150 csts are having problems with the slottage
im 200+ with no buffs, yet no one ever uses my constructor, even though there are some VERY nice weapons out there made by me.
Me too. This is the opposite of what he told us before. Has it changed or is there a mis-communication somewhere?
Also - where is the quote taken from?That Thanny quote is in one of the recent construction threads. Check my sig. Same quote.
Nah, not a mis-communication. We just didnt have all of the info.
We were told slot chances = quality of build.
We assumed, since we didnt know otherwise, that since quality visibly caps, that slot chances cap as well.
We were wrong. :)
EDIT: Original thread for Thanny quote: http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=99028&page=2
We assumed, since we didnt know otherwise, that since quality visibly caps, that slot chances cap as well.
We were wrong. :)
EDIT: Original thread for Thanny quote: http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=99028&page=2
Thanks for link.
We didn't assume though. The old post was pretty clear - "What is considered is the final quality of the item, not the pre-cap quality"
Prankster26193
19-05-04, 04:44
Havent you people seen yet? KK doesnt listen to a fucking word you say.
Havent you people seen yet? KK doesnt listen to a fucking word you say.LOL. Given the fact that we ask for info, and they give it... that comment makes NO sense AT ALL. Congrats.
Havent you people seen yet? KK doesnt listen to a fucking word you say.
Yeah, they don't listen one fricking bit. (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=87007)
Those bastards. (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=97849)
darknessfairy
19-05-04, 09:34
***This is not a "let's flame KK thread" guys. Please keep it on-topic, preferably without flames to Mortice or anyother poster here.***
Mortice cheers for that info.. Tbh i wouldn't have read the other thread, and i think bob's constructor would be pleased to know about that.
At the end of the day, all i can summise is that aside from your cst skill, slots are definately random. It's like rolling a fair die, you have a 1/6 chances of gettin a 6...on this tho, you get an wierd chance of getting a 5 slot...prolly something like 5/199...(can't be exact cos he didn't give us exact figures...)
v[ortice']I would also like to ask why some Weapons are a lot harder to slot than others. I seem to struggle particularly with plasma weapons and the only 5 slot plasma weapon I have ever built from 3 constructors has been a Cursed Soul.
I would like to know why this seems to be the case aswell. I have made 2 CST'ers. My 1st couldnt slot maledictions or any fusion cannons (bar maybe 2 slots on the tl 70ish), and with my current CST i have made over 100 blessed deflectors and only made one 2 slotter. But I have noticed the opposite happens on certain items to, Holy Lightnings/Fire Apocalypse and even Energy Beam/Fire Beam I seem to be able to Slot alot easier, and I have never made a 0 slot HL/FA and have made over 20, iirc i have never actually had lower than 2 slots.
But thx for posting the info on here, i would never had noticed the page without it.
I've built a 5 slot TL3 Deflector und a 4 slot TL 3 Heal with my PE. All stats are at 80%, but cap is at 94%.
There are two possibilities:
1) Slots are bugged
2) I didn't understand the quote :p
At the end of the day, all i can summise is that aside from your cst skill, slots are definately random. It's like rolling a fair die, you have a 1/6 chances of gettin a 6...on this tho, you get an wierd chance of getting a 5 slot...prolly something like 5/199...(can't be exact cos he didn't give us exact figures...)First, I am glad he didnt give exact numbers. :)
Second, you are correct. There is ALWAYS a chance you will get zero slots. As your construct skill/dex/int combo goes up, you also get a chance to get 4 or 5 slots. But the chance to get zero slots is always there, as the devs dont want slots to ever be guaranteed.
So I think its like this.
Game rolls a 100 sided fair die. It looks at your constr/int/dex and the TL of the item, and developes a scale.
So for a low level constructor building an item at his own level, it might be
< 70 - 0 slots
71-90 - 1 slot
>90 - 2 sots
Then for a higher level constructor building that same item,
<60 - 0 slots
61-80 - 1 slot
81-95 - 2 slot
>95 - 3 slots
And an uber constructor building the same item
<50 - 0 slots
50-70 - 1 slot
71-85 - 2 slot
86-92 - 3 slot
92-97 - 4 slot
>97 - 5 slot
All number are made up of course. But I think thats the idea. From what I have seen, I dont think 5 slotters will really ever have more than a 1% chance (I built 300 TL20 items, and got 3 5 slotters... and the same has held for TL85 items for me as well).
So we dont know exactly how the dex/in/constr works together with the item TL, and what the magical cap number is- but we do know that you should be able to EASILY build something to its construction cap (and surpass that amount needed) for best slot chances.
We dont know ALL of the info, but we certainly know more now. Enough for me, anyway. :) So its still "random" in that in the above example, a fair 100 sided die is rolled every time. Its not "random" in that the scale is sliding, and while every outcome of the die has even chances, every outcome of the construction does not have even chances.
I really hate it. Why must KK go on and give out such details? Bah, what next? An Excel sheet for skilling by KK? :(
The problem with Thanatos comment is, that this almost calls for the constructor mule. Level it up the fast lane, lom to const, put it in the closet and only get it out of the closet if you or your clan needs something build. :( This is simply shit! Spezilisation to the extrem!
Sorry, but IMHO the combat rank of a Spy (calculated with a TL 90 weapon(becasue of low tec spies) should be a big factor in the construction formula, cause this way there will be played consters and not just conster mules. This information might be the end of free consters and the beginnig of the total separation of trade and combat Chars.
Havent you people seen yet? KK doesnt listen to a fucking word you say.
...take a look at the test server as well as other changes and please say that again.
para has been nerfed numerous times due to community complaints
rez as well
stealth now spy only
weapon/spell Tl's redone
now takes construction to drop turrets as well as cant be done stealthed
ect ect
The game has came along way over the 7 months.
countless posts requesting such changes, fixes to memory leaks and stability, all being taken into consideration, don't forget they are working on two games at once, our Neocron and our bdoy, it takes time
<edited> opps what i get for not proof reading :angel:
stealth now pe only
spy ;)
Clownst0pper
19-05-04, 12:00
spy ;)
already edited ;)
Thx for the responses guys.
About the low level stuff. The T/L 3 heal is always the example. By my reckoning I should have tremendous end-quality with my setup but the other week it took 80 builds for me to get more than a 2 slotter. Admittedly this could have been a bad sequence and always with probability there is possibility.
Also... anyone experienced a dip in the stats on rare items built of late?
Reason I posted this topic is because I have noticed a big drop off with slots on all weapons and the stats on my rare builds since the last patch (at first I thought I was going through a bad period). Don't get me wrong though, I have made some absolutely lovely rare and none-rare weapons, but they seem to be few and far between.
I think I mentioned in another thread my GF built 20 odd rares at an OP with CST3 a few weeks back. So my contributing factors to the builds were CST 215, DEX 131 and INT 131 (with a drug). Those twenty-odd rares came out as some of the worst rare builds my conster has ever done. Some of the stats were absolutely appalling. Like I say... maybe a bad run. Next time I build rares unbuffed and back at the city, the builds are back to a decent standard, but still not great quality.
Anywayz if anyone can relate to this, please post and tell me about it.
...take a look at the test server as well as other changes and please say that again.
para has been nerfed numerous times due to community complaints
rez as well
stealth now spy only
weapon/spell Tl's redone
now takes construction to drop turrets as well as cant be done stealthed
ect ect
The game has came along way over the 7 months.
countless posts requesting such changes, fixes to memory leaks and stability, all being taken into consideration, don't forget they are working on two games at once, our Neocron and our bdoy, it takes time
<edited> opps what i get for not proof reading :angel:
A well deserved thanx is in order yes, though I'd might believe kk sometimes listens to much to the community since the community exists mostly out of people who just want the best for themselves (no offense intended, prob. just a human thing)
Aside from that I always had the impression that the more slots my rares had the lower the quality was, almost every gun with slots I made could be capped on stats, weither it was 2 slots or 5 slots didn't matter, the 5 slotter just needed more modifications to reach capped stats point. Thus I never realy cared for high slot counts as the only thing that realy matters is its stats.
I've heard hundreds of theory's on how to become a better builder but basicly it seems just about ups and downs, luck.
Yeah, good question.
SINCE WHEN ?
It has been this way for ages (beta 3 or 4).
Maybe my post overstated the value of a higher CST skill a bit. After some more number crunching I can say that the difference between a CST of 150 and 200 is only a few % better chance for low slot numbers and marginal at best for 4/5 slots.
The formula really doesn't care whether you build a plasma gun or a toothpick, all that matters is techlevel.
CRAIG DIGGERS
19-05-04, 17:35
Yes please, I want to know this too. Why is it so damn hard to slot a silent hunter?
SH is the challenge of every constructor =D
1/2/0/2/4/0/3 as i remember my slots on SH
its a really hard item :p
Thanks for replying Than.
Appreciate the answer mate :)
The formula really doesn't care whether you build a plasma gun or a toothpick, all that matters is techlevel.We can make toothpicks? :eek:
Is there a rare version?
/edit - btw - Thanks Thanny, you know we all apprectiate this.
Any plans to tweak the formula to benefit us high level cst'ers? or make the Con glove boost slot chance?
hehe.
well this is another thing that just proves am right more constr skills does influance slots if u read from my old post i defended it :)
hehe bet those that argued with me feel stupid :)
but hey thats part of the game :)
Well in theory since the cst glove boosts cst skill, it is boosting your slot chance :) yes, by a horribly insignificant amount admittedly, but beggars can't be choosers.
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