View Full Version : Views from the 210+ cst club on cst buff3 and the 255 limit
I have long heard this debate on cst buff3 being bugged. I never use cst buff on my cst, who is around 218 now. The basis is not well founded most just folk lore on construction. Any insights.
Now the 255 limit. Is this true that with op bonus and implants, glove skill the max you should have is 255. There has been rumors that over that much it starts hurting your construction. If this is the case then with 220 cst and the same faction bonus of an op being 35 you hit 255 and that should be the best you can get. Or is it?
Im just probing for info from the higher level craftsmen out there that have 210+ constuction and built more then 20 tl 100+ rare items.
I cant fathom Codi actually putting in code that would say if construction is over 255, it would hurt your construction.
The only way for that to happen is if once you hit 256, the program recognizes that as zero. And then 257 as 1, etc. I.e. it rolls over.
Now to test that, simply take your constructor, get a level 3 buff and a factory, and see if it lets you build a punisher or something.
I think it would be a yes/no thing. I cant even imagine how it would let you construct, but it would "hurt" it in some way.
Especially when you get 100 Int/100 Dex/150 Constr or so, it never gets any better than that anyway. Everything above that is just being cool to be able to say that you have a high number for construction.
I have built tons of rares, thousands of TL 100+ items. My TL is 228 with self cast buff. It is false that buffs and/or drugs decrease construction quality. That much I can assure you of.
I cant fathom Codi actually putting in code that would say if construction is over 255, it would hurt your construction.
The only way for that to happen is if once you hit 256, the program recognizes that as zero. And then 257 as 1, etc. I.e. it rolls over.
Now to test that, simply take your constructor, get a level 3 buff and a factory, and see if it lets you build a punisher or something.
I think it would be a yes/no thing. I cant even imagine how it would let you construct, but it would "hurt" it in some way.
Especially when you get 100 Int/100 Dex/150 Constr or so, it never gets any better than that anyway. Everything above that is just being cool to be able to say that you have a high number for construction.
I have built tons of rares, thousands of TL 100+ items. My TL is 228 with self cast buff. It is false that buffs and/or drugs decrease construction quality. That much I can assure you of.
still have a 3 slot epr that you made from dec 2002 :D:D
I had over 200CST and it was pointless. I now have 182 unbuffed but wearing a glove. That's still overkill but it means if someone insists on 200+ I can get to 202 to make them happy.
I build hundreds and hundreds of rares both at >200 and at <200 and I have made better items on average with less CST. I did gain a few DEX and INT levels as I was LoMing though which may account for it. I now have about 120 DEX and 110INT.
I never liked the idea of drugs and IME I made worse items using them. Then again I rarely used them because of this so the sample is small and unreliable.
After getting over about 160CST I never bothered with buffs unless a customer insisted.
THIS IS GoD
15-05-04, 04:36
Truthfully from my expeiriance CST is based off your base cst lvl not what you have with imps and glove an buff on I've built TL 100+ Rares with all combat imps in and gotten better quality and slots on them then I have with CST imps in granted slots are random but all cst is bugged imps buffs and gloves dont help or really hinder they just dont do anything at all really
hehe, why do u need more than 140 cst anyway? You can cap all rares and the rest (slots that is) is random. Our former clan constructor had something like 141 cst and made us all weapons like 5 slotted SH, 5 slotted judge, 4 slotted disruptor etc. She have never even used a factory, just some cst1 spell and few drugs, so the maximal amount of cst she had ever had was around 150 cst. And it was more than enough.
Sorry, but for me its just waste of skillpoints.
This is an expermint i would like to try.
Take a highlevel crap rare like the punisher drone. TL 122 get parts for like 10 of them cst 5 in the apt with no buffs or drugs. Then go to an op and cst 5 with drugs.
Now how do you measure the results?
Add all of the stats and get one total number. If the two sets of 5 have a trend, then this exp is valid. As in if the total number of the apt set is 440 or an avg of 110 per stat and the set done at the op with drugs is 460 or 115 per stat then we can say that clearly the cst formula is battle of the TL of the rare vs cst skill and the higher the skill then the higer the base mean for each stat with a random factor for how many points in each stat. this might mean that one rare gets better freg then damage and the next gets better range then freg but the avg base stats is skill dependant.
Im pretty sure this is what you will find. Of the 4 judges I built 1 with owning the op and the next 3 just same faction as the op there was a base stat difference.
If anyone wants to toss in some punisher drone parts to help I would be more then gratefull.
5 in apt and 5 at the OP is just a too small sample to be of any significance, trust me!
Just my 2c, Wilco
5 in apt and 5 at the OP is just a too small sample to be of any significance, trust me!
Just my 2c, Wilco
Usally I would agree but it really depends on the numbers. If the numbers from both sets line up as expected then it would indicate a trend. If there are odd numbers in the sets then a larger sample would be needed. I worked in RnD labs for RF products for a long time. When doing experiments your avg number of samples, really depends on the variance of your measurments.
Scanner Darkly
15-05-04, 16:30
This is all very interesting, but really it would be nice if a dev who knows the ins and outs of the code would say what the real deal is. I've made over a 100 rares so far and I seem to slot better when I'm around other people. Whenever I used to build in my apt I'd get horrible results even with int and dex well over 100 and about 217 cster (never use buffs).
The only time I used drugs the results were pretty awful also (about 8 rares). And when I went to a cst op and got 267 in cst i built 3 unslotted rares with bad stats in a row before I swore never to use one again...
Also yes it may be enough to have around 150 in cst if youre fully capped and have say 120 int/dex, but if you want to cap all rare drones and your int/dex is very low (at same tl cst) you may not be able to and also your rare output may suffer (just a thought).
I totatally agree that having over TL200 in cst is a bit of a waste of time, as you could invest in implant and get up to a decent level or you could be a relatively safe resser / poker (or totally safe with cst 3 buff) and good rare cster. Still I have never built a 5 slot rare (couple of 4 slotters at best) and will never stop wondering if I have too much in cst or not enough int/dex or too much, etc :(
Hope some other long time csters (roe?) can help clear this up...
Dribble Joy
15-05-04, 16:32
Re. the 255 thing.
255 seems an integral limiting number in the game mechanics.
GMs have 255 stats (afaik).
Data cubes can't hold more than 255 characters.
Some (if not all) stats stop at 255.
That limit is most likely exactly those values since it's a "clean" amount of bytes.
Skill limits are 255, which is exactly 1 byte. (Or 8 bits, which equals 256 different possible values. Why not have 256 as limit? Because 0 is a possible value too)
Character limit for datacubes, is 255. Those are 255 different possible combinations of 255 different characters (Assuming they're ASCII encoded), or in other words, 2 bytes (Or 16 bits, which equals 65536 different possibilities). :P
Why not 256 on both of those last two, as zero isn't a possibility? That's simple because zero is a possibility, it's just one you can't type, and is most likely the character used to mark the end of the recording.
I R 1337 C0D3R D3WD!
:p
EDIT:
With reference to that, it could be possible that your skill value resets and starts over again like Strych9 said if it goes too high; but I'm guessing that if that was once a bug, it's already been fixed, as this can be very easily tested by GMs.
More EDIT:
Actually, it might in fact only reset if your base skill value get's over 255, which is completely impossible as you can't ever get more than 175 in any skill from base points.
This is because the bonus get's stored as a loose value from your base skill, and might in fact only ever get accounted for in calculations which require it.
my constructor is capped, with 195 base construct and 200 with cst 1 buff
i find that is u have a cst 3 it ruins my rare build and i dont advise anyone to use a cst 3 if building rares.
when i build rares now i go to a factory and wear a cst 1 with glove and rares
:)
@Biz - wrt small samples and variance : that's not valid in this context as the "random number" is not really random. All computer generated pseudo-random sequences suffer from "clumping" because they are tied to a common key. The test you suggest has actually been done several times and no trend was ever found.
@Scanner - You can only have 220RES and capped CST on the same char if you have a pet PPU and if you swap CPUs or can guarantee OP usage. You'd be better off asking a real CST too btw ;).
@J Folson - Your datacube math looks a bit gaga. Someone once posted on the TS forum that they had got over 255 in one stat so I don't think there is a limit there any more (if there ever was one). If there is a limit it would be far more likely to be a display limit than a storage limit anyway IMO/E. Aside from that I'm pretty sure all stats are stored as non-integers.
there are so many rumors about having an almighty 200+ plus const... IMO its a waste of time, i have one augueably one of plutos best consts... and he has no where 200 const, he has enough to cap damage on weapons, spells... whatever... its not the fact he can get the slots, its the fact he can keep going with basically no cost... i.e. he has plenty of barter, and enough of it to actually make a profit on a batch of weapons he makes.
First, there is NO SUCH THING AS A "GOOD CONSTRUCTOR." After you reach point X in terms of Dex/Int/Constr, everyone is the same.
Second, if you COULD spot a trend in building rares, then its not random. Yes, as Jernau pointed out, computers cannot be "truly random"... but if you could spot a trend in 5 builds... then it would be NOWHERE near random.
Third, the devs HAVE commented on this. Its amazing people still ask about this. First, Thanatos commented on exactly what goes into construction (when we first learned of the dex/int/constr formula we still have today). Second, Codi has also verified all of this. Rare quality and slots are RANDOM (to whatever extend a computer can calculate random).
You can go to a factory and in two build get one thats 120/120/120/120 and four slots, and one that is 112/111/109/116 and no slots. Thats how it works.
Drugs do not adversely affect what you build. Buffs do not adversely affect what you build. I have 5 slotted rares on and off drugs, with and without buffs, with and without factories. You seem to want there to be a predictable pattern to all of this, and you refuse to admit there is none.
You cannot verify anything with 5 builds. Absolutely nothing concerning rares can be tested in that small of a sample.
I will try to spend some time on Monday, if this thread is still around, digging up all of the comments from the devs on this.
EDIT: Found the one I was thinking of. Read this whole thread. It quotes and links to other threads as well.
http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=89963
Now on the last page, last posts, Thanatos says
Even though the Neocron code sometimes seems to have a mind of its own, CoDi assures me that there is absolutely no way to force any number of slots. It *is* random, the statement quoted earlier in this thread is still true.
My char with 255 in all skills and subskills doesn't have a much higher chance of getting slots on rares than Vettero's 58 dex/150 CST conster... and absolutely no guarantee of getting slots.Now please, everyone read that. Lets use that quote as the basis for speculation from here on out.
Now at this point, the ONLY valid question left is whether you can get your skill to over 255 or not. Yes, 0-255 is a logical range, but I personally dont know if you can get it above that or not.
Its trivial, but I am sure it would be good reference to someone that has an op and level 3 buff to raise their constr to beyond 255 and see what it does.
But all questions about quality and slots should now be answered.
CRAIG DIGGERS
16-05-04, 04:57
Now the 255 limit. Is this true that with op bonus and implants, glove skill the max you should have is 255. There has been rumors that over that much it starts hurting your construction. If this is the case then with 220 cst and the same faction bonus of an op being 35 you hit 255 and that should be the best you can get. Or is it?
Its trivial, but I am sure it would be good reference to someone that has an op and level 3 buff to raise their constr to beyond 255 and see what it does.
But all questions about quality and slots should now be answered.
I still remember my 4 rares with 280 in construct and "oustanding" stats.
All 4 rares: 106-108% on ALL stats.
there are so many rumors about having an almighty 200+ plus const... IMO its a waste of time, i have one augueably one of plutos best consts... and he has no where 200 const, he has enough to cap damage on weapons, spells... whatever...
Plz tell me your % on a punisher drone, i just want to know.
I am not sure but do you get the 79% on a TL 122 punisher drone as me with 235 ?
The only way for that to happen is if once you hit 256, the program recognizes that as zero. And then 257 as 1, etc. I.e. it rolls over.
.
Nope, i builded a Doombeamer with skill 280 and get 106% on all stats.
I builded a Thunderstorm with 42% SI (Lom pill) in the begin of the process, thats a skill of about 105. After the build it was "good" with 86% on the stats.
If you really have a rollover and 257 skill is 1, then 280 must be skill 24 but you will never finish a rare build with skill 24 cuz the process always fails.
I always build on plaza with buff one with :
175 natural skill, +60 implants, +5 buff one.
:D Every constructor build crap rares sometimes, but noone tells you the bad stuff he made . o_O
ok i just built 2 crahn antibuffs TL 101. With 146 cst at and OP. Both spells came out a bit different here and there, but when you totaled the 4 numbers up they came in 1 point of each other 451 452. This could be a rounding issue as we know neocron has hidden precentages in stats. one two slot and one no slot.
This is the same thing on the 3 judes i built. All of them came in within one number of each other built in the same fashion. When you say that the quality of a rare is random, i say how the points get spread between the 4 stats has a random nature to it but the total number that it has to spread between the 4 stats is a fixed. I know S9 will come back and say its not a large enough sample, well nay say all you want stats on rares are not random. It is the TL of the rare vs cst level. I built some low level melee rares, due to the lower TL the stats on the build we within 1 point of all 120 on the vein ripper and the paw of tiger was just a bit under that and the paw of bear was lower then the paw of tiger. I have built 25 or so rares now and the idea that the TL effect the stats holds true. That defies the idea the stats are random.
As luck would have it I built 3 HLs a week or so back and still have then on my CST. The totals of the stats are - 462, 458, 455.
Next theory please....
CRAIG DIGGERS
16-05-04, 10:45
of all 120 on the vein ripper and the paw of tiger was just a bit under that and the paw of bear was lower then the paw of tiger. I have built 25 or so rares now and the idea that the TL effect the stats holds true. That defies the idea the stats are random.
Yes the TL effect the stats but they are random aswelll, thats what i get in a e-mail of a KK support member. They won't make every weapon the same, so its
a kind of random stats system. Thats what they told to me. i got vein rippers with random stats on my skill aswell(like 120 120 120 117), but i build pe's with 117 dam/120 frequ/119 handl / 116 range aswell. Hardest thing to me in kind of stats is ( exept the rare drones) the silent hunter, first love, doombeamer and Dissi. The really high stuff i get random outstanding stats on somes.
enigma_b17
16-05-04, 12:15
yea cstin really pisses me off sometimes, i mean a capped tl 220 cst should do ALOT better at csting then a n00b one with 130. It eliminates the purpose of putting more points in cst, id appreciate if a gm/dev could comment and tell us how/why its like this
@J Folsom - Your datacube math looks a bit gaga. Someone once posted on the TS forum that they had got over 255 in one stat so I don't think there is a limit there any more (if there ever was one). If there is a limit it would be far more likely to be a display limit than a storage limit anyway IMO/E. Aside from that I'm pretty sure all stats are stored as non-integers.
It probably is a bit gaga, combination of posting over-enthusiastically while not thinking about what you're posting and than completley forgetting about the post so that you can't correct it later on.
I'm all agreed anyway, I was just giong out from a point of view that 255 was the maximum, highly unlikely as it is.
with my mule i have just over 130 with self buff and glove and he always turns out 2 sloted weapons.
i mean _always_
hes made over 100 2 slot weapons and 1 5 slot 1 4 slot and 2 0 slot
:wtf:
ok i just built 2 crahn antibuffs TL 101. With 146 cst at and OP. Both spells came out a bit different here and there, but when you totaled the 4 numbers up they came in 1 point of each other 451 452. This could be a rounding issue as we know neocron has hidden precentages in stats. one two slot and one no slot.
This is the same thing on the 3 judes i built. All of them came in within one number of each other built in the same fashion. When you say that the quality of a rare is random, i say how the points get spread between the 4 stats has a random nature to it but the total number that it has to spread between the 4 stats is a fixed. I know S9 will come back and say its not a large enough sample, well nay say all you want stats on rares are not random. It is the TL of the rare vs cst level. I built some low level melee rares, due to the lower TL the stats on the build we within 1 point of all 120 on the vein ripper and the paw of tiger was just a bit under that and the paw of bear was lower then the paw of tiger. I have built 25 or so rares now and the idea that the TL effect the stats holds true. That defies the idea the stats are random.Wow, so biznatchy builds 25 rares and now he knows that Codi/Thanatos is lying? Excellent. :rolleyes:
First, no one said TL has nothing to do with quality.
Second, Jernau easily just disproved your theory anyway.
Third, saying "rares of a lower TL can more often build to better stats than a higher TL rare" does NOT disprove the idea that stats are random.
Biz, if you think you figured out the game already, please make another post, and state your hypothesis for everyone clearly. Then, we can all go look at our rare builds, and come back and see if you are right or wrong.
Maybe you found some code in the game that Codi doesnt even know is there (even though he wrote it). I guess that is possible. Let's find out.
Ok I dont get all the double talk here Strych9, you say that high cst is a waste that all rare stats are random but your cst has 228 cst. If all that cst is just fluff then why did you first spend all that time in the graves droning to get it and if its just wasted why not put it in research or hack or somthing.
Is it possible to get drugs which can increase your construction skill?
Is it possible to get drugs which can increase your construction skill?
No it's not, however since Dexterity and Intelligence also give a slight bonus to constructing skill, you can take all dexterity and intelligence drugs to slightly boost performance.
But that only counts if you're not capping everything already anyway; otherwise taking the drugs is pointless. Though you could see it as an extra tip if a superstitious customer gives some to you.
Ok I dont get all the double talk here Strych9, you say that high cst is a waste that all rare stats are random but your cst has 228 cst. If all that cst is just fluff then why did you first spend all that time in the graves droning to get it and if its just wasted why not put it in research or hack or somthing.
Because, as shown by this thread, some people have it in their heads that a constructor with 200+ CST has better chance for slots than another constructor with 150 CST. My constructor has 155 CST and ~100 INT/DEX, I still get 79% stats on a Punisher, and I haven't noticed anything particularly bad or good about the rares I've built.
The TL issue just stems from a slight misuse of the word random. Slots aren't strictly random, there's just a random factor involved. They work in terms of chance, and the chance for slots is related to the stats of the weapon. So for non-rares, if you build a weapon to max quality, say a TPC which caps at 84% IIRC, then your chance for slots is as high as it can be, no amount of CST or INT or DEX will change that. A constructor who builds it to 75% stats has a lower chance however. Rares are no different, the only thing which isn't the same is that there is an additional random factor invloved in determining the stats. After all of the extensive, and not so extensive testing done by various constructors, there has be no convincing evidence that it's worth increasing the CST stats after you cap a Punisher drone at 79% quality, in terms of stat and slot chance on rares. The only reason to increase it is to attract more customers who aren't aware or disagree with this.
Ok I dont get all the double talk here Strych9, you say that high cst is a waste that all rare stats are random but your cst has 228 cst. If all that cst is just fluff then why did you first spend all that time in the graves droning to get it and if its just wasted why not put it in research or hack or somthing.Cause its cool to say I have 228. Cause it will be nice to be one of the few pure constructors on Saturn with capped Int and every point in Construction. Cause my spy Strych9 is a tradeskiller and will likely never set foot in combat again- so what else should I have with int?
Hack? No need. Research? Hardly- we know that research, unlike construction, DOES need to be uber to be successful all the time, and my bud SLB, who lives a mile from me, has his main Spy with 216 in research.
I have high construction cause its novel to have it. But I dont have it cause of better slot chances, or higher quality on rares, or whatever other superstitions people have.
I also have 100% dex and con in Agility and Athletics, and all Str into Transport.
Edit: and Biz, if Strych9 was to be actively used in other activities aside from clan management, resource management, and construction- then I would likely have my construction down around 150 and I wouldnt have Hawkins, SS, Constr 2, and Constr 3 as my brain imps.
l33t3st. ctor. evah. :P
btw it can be an argument about how base (without imps)stat counts.
Original monk
18-05-04, 14:55
l33t3st. ctor. evah. :P
btw it can be an argument about how base (without imps)stat counts.
hehe i didnt notice youre constructskill at first, but i must confess this is really cool :)
btw its been since beta 4 ago that i got a poke from you :)
*poures some disinfection gel on poke tool*
Ready for next?
Since this screenshot made, I sinked 75 pts into cst, capping every cstable item this way :D
btw it can be an argument about how base (without imps)stat counts.What argument are you referring to?
Unless you mean to say that base stat, without imps, DOESNT matter, which is what your picture proves. Since your base stat is zero, and you built a TL 9 weapon, and wouldnt have been constructable without your imps.
So if that is what you mean... that base stats dont matter, only final, after-imps stats, then yeah, I think that definitely proves that.
If you meant something else, I dont follow.
Strych, pls don't treat me as adversary and dont look for attacks on your position in my posts. I agree with you in most points, except one.
Yes, I wanted to show that base stat isn't denominating slots nor stats.
But most of all, it's just pretty funny picture.
Strych, pls don't treat me as adversary and dont look for attacks on your position in my posts. I agree with you in most points, except one.
Yes, I wanted to show that base stat isn't denominating slots nor stats.
But most of all, it's just pretty funny picture.LOL. I dont see you as an adversary.
I was honestly confused by what you said. Maybe I should have put some smilies so you understood me better?
You said "can be an argument about how base (without imps)stat counts." When saying "can be an argument about how base (without imps)stat dont count" would have been more accurate, right? The way you said it at first, it sounded like you meant that base stats DO count... since that is what you said.
Thats why I tried to clarify it. Sorry if it seemed adversarial, but I just wanted a clarification on if you thought base stats do count or dont.
:) :) :) :) :D :D :D :D :p :p :p
As far as the other stuff, too many times I have seen people come in here and declare what they "know" about construction based on hearsay or building 5 rares... neither of which really hold up to any sort of scrutiny.
I have been learning about and testing the construction routine in Neocron since beta, and have done countless tests, and have spoken with devs, and have had my tests validated by the devs. It just gets tiring to finally get a handle on how the game works, then have someoen come in and based on something they heard or something they suspect, start making claims without any proof whatsoever.
So if my tone was harsh, I apologize.
Yeah, I was thinkig of
>> how the base stats "counts"
but forgot "" :p
Yeah, I was thinkig of
>> how the base stats "counts"
but forgot "" :pAh, well that would have clarified it.
See what happens when you leave of the quotes? all hell beaks loose... :angel:
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