View Full Version : Stealth - No not about PEs (:rolleyes:)
Dribble Joy
13-05-04, 15:41
PAs have lost stealth, which tbhj they should never have got.
I'm not here about PEs, so we can ignore the stuff currently being banged on about in those other threads.
However.
Stealth has not been removed, spies can still use it, and can use all levels.
The problem I see, is that the the problems that gave rise to the PE stealth issue, can and will come up again in the future.
The abuse of stealth units is obvious, people popping in and out of stealth and generally being 'stealth whores'.
So, little idea that probably has in various forms been put forward before, but here goes again.
If it is possible within the restrictions of the game mechanics, give stealth tools a rate of fire/recharge rate. Times not inclusive of the stealth time.
Stealth 1 - 1 min.
Stealth 2 - 45 secs.
Stealth 3 - 20 secs.
Obliterator - 10 secs.
So only those willing to gimp significantly will be able to 'stealth whore' (but even then, you would be uncloaked for a min of 10 seconds).
Oh, and stealth units should be usable within stealth, activating again ends the stealth, the charge time remains the same. Get rid of those sodding drugs.
Only problem I see is people with 3 or 4 (or more) tools in their QB, but then QB slots are at a premium, maybe it isn't too bad...
Stealth should have a 1 in 10 chance of kill_self. Wouldn't that be funny as hell?
I like your idea, anything that will nerf stealth.
Agreed that should of been done long ago, but I have to say that it feels like ages inbetween stealths but I know it isnt but there should be a counter icon like a drug or poison icon that would state how long until you can stealth next.
Stealth should have a 1 in 10 chance of kill_self. Wouldn't that be funny as hell?
that would ROCK!!
I would be fine with that.
But just to point out, its easier to Stealth whore with shelter and blessed deflector and the good armor that a PE can use. Im my mind, and in the mind of others I think, it was never stealth that was the problem. It was stealth combined with already good defense.
I heard tons of stories of people spending 10+ minutes fighting a stealthing PE cause he could never be harmed enough while visible to kill him. Yet you seldom, if ever, hear stories like that about spies. :)
But regardless- a delay would be fine by me.
Dribble Joy
13-05-04, 15:46
Agreed that should of been done long ago, but I have to say that it feels like ages inbetween stealths but I know it isnt but there should be a counter icon like a drug or poison icon that would state how long until you can stealth next.
I was going to mention something like that, but erm... didn't.
Something like a cst timer? That will not allow a stealth unit to be used while it is running?
Clownst0pper
13-05-04, 15:47
a 1 minute delay time for a 10 second stealth? Thats a mock.
It should be 20 seconds, in 1 minute u can be gang banged beyond all belief.
So now because Stealth on PE's is removed, U want to criple spys whos job it is to scout?
And we know most spys arent combat orientated.
Yeah thats it dribble, screw my droner over whos only able to use stealth 1 without gimping her, with my inability to have any combat skills u want me to just die? what a mock.
Leave stealth, accept PE's no longer have it Spys can be dealt with easier
I was going to mention something like that, but erm... didn't.
Something like a cst timer? That will not allow a stealth unit to be used while it is running?
Something like that just so you when you will be able to use it again so you arent running around bashing the stealth tool to work when you should be shooting instead.
So only those willing to gimp significantly will be able to 'stealth whore' (but even then, you would be uncloaked for a min of 10 seconds).
where have you been? the only spy class that would have to gimp significantly would be the droner, a rifle/pistol spy can cap disruptor/executioner easy while using oblit, drive a hover and still have decent agility as well....
Stealth should have a 1 in 10 chance of kill_self. Wouldn't that be funny as hell?
almost as funny as PEs losing stealth, now that is funny :lol:
personally ive not got a major issue with spies using stealth as it is
Dribble Joy
13-05-04, 15:52
a 1 minute delay time for a 10 second stealth? Thats a mock.
It should be 20 seconds, in 1 minute u can be gang banged beyond all belief.
So now because Stealth on PE's is removed, U want to criple spys whos job it is to scout?
And we know most spys arent combat orientated.
Yeah thats it dribble, screw my droner over whos only able to use stealth 1 without gimping her, with my inability to have any combat skills u want me to just die? what a mock.
Leave stealth, accept PE's no longer have it Spys can be dealt with easier
Look, it's just an idea, those numbers are rough anyway.
I am trying to get rid of a problem associated with stealth, one that is tbh, a serious one.
How about you remove/considerably lower the TC req on stealths? then your droner could use the lvl3/obli without much hassle.
And why are you so ready to assume I am trying to 'do in' a specific class?
You think I am a sore looser, now I (as a PE) have lost stealth?
I wanted stealth made spy only, it was fun at first, but stealth quickly showed it's ability to be abused, leading to it's removal from the PE item pool.
If we aren't carefull the same thing could happen to spies.
I didn't think of droners when I had this idea, and I'm sorry, but a possible removal of TC (possibly coupled with an INT increase), from the reqs might solve this.
Dribble, maybe you should explain the "problem" with Stealth as it ONLY pertains to spies?
99% of the time where I have witnissed or heard about stealth whoring... meaning people fighting, then stealthing away to heal then coming back and fighting some more (is that what you are talking about?) it was a PE. 99% of the times I have seen spies stealth, it has been to continually stay out of danger, reposition for sniping, etc.
So maybe before offering a solution, you fully explain the problem (with Spies, not with how it was before with PEs and Spies).
My god, now that the pe's have lost stealth, they go target the stealthing spies......
HAVE EVER OF YOU STEALTH-REMOVAL-WHINERS EVER PLAYED A SPY??????
It was my first char, and then i went to a ppu and a hc tank.
Tank is about the same level as my spy now, went WAAAY faster to level.
Also i have died maybe 7 times in total on my tank. On my spy i've died everywhere, at every op war where i was actively fighting, almost every killing trip i made to tg canyon etc....
There allready IS a timer on stealth, it takes a couple of seconds before you can restealth, and when you're getting shot and hit it seems to even take longer.
personally ive not got a major issue with spies using stealth as it is
neither do I, this is a pretty sad thread tbh, spies who stealth weren't a problem in the past, but now that PEs are losing stealth people choose to complain about something that wasn't a remote issue? ... :lol: ers
Clownst0pper
13-05-04, 16:03
Spies are not a problem when stealthing as 99% of them are non combat, and only use stealth for moving around, and generally, I can always kill a stealther on any char.
Following the blue trail is piece of piss ;)
Dribble Joy
13-05-04, 16:24
So maybe before offering a solution, you fully explain the problem (with Spies, not with how it was before with PEs and Spies).
I didn't mention this for two reasons.
1) I assumed people knew what I was talking about.
2)As you may have noticed I am appaling at writing and contructing my arguments, my english is poor and I find it hard to explain properly what I mean. As a result, my arguments are often turned back and used on me when (if explained by someone decidedly articulate with writen english), it should not have been.
The reasons are because (you can feel the counter argument ammunition building allready can't you), stealth allows you to retreat to somwhere where to heal up. Which was the problem behind PEs and pistol PEs in particular.
You mention the moving to possition.
Indeed, this is a problem, a good stealthing sniper is impossible to see let alone fight, you will never see them as as soon as they have fired, they stealth and move (if moving is even needed). Rinse and repeat untill the target is dead.
Which though is the whole point of a sniper, for the sakes of game balance is totally unfightable.
Pistol PEs can do the same as te pistol PEs did, popping in and out of stealth wearing down the target, a skilled stealther will recieve little or no damage from the target as the time between stealths is so low. Spies can easily cap the weapons that even in the hands of a PE do horrific damage (which is right, spies can use better weapons better than a PE, kinda the whole offence vs defence balance in action), but coupled with stealth overpowers to an extent, just like it did the PEs. The snipers will still be able to do what they do now, but the hit and run tactics (which are cool but ultimately overpowered) should be curbed somewhat.
Feel free to rip that to shreads, I know you want to.
Anything to humiliate and debunk me and my ideas in front of everyone.
I didn't mention this for two reasons.
1) I assumed people knew what I was talking about.
2)As you may have noticed I am appaling at writing and contructing my arguments, my english is poor and I find it hard to explain properly what I mean. As a result, my arguments are often turned back and used on me when (if explained by someone decidedly articulate with writen english), it should not have been.
The reasons are because (you can feel the counter argument ammunition building allready can't you), stealth allows you to retreat to somwhere where to heal up. Which was the problem behind PEs and pistol PEs in particular.
You mention the moving to possition.
Indeed, this is a problem, a good stealthing sniper is impossible to see let alone fight, you will never see them as as soon as they have fired, they stealth and move (if moving is even needed). Rinse and repeat untill the target is dead.
Which though is the whole point of a sniper, for the sakes of game balance is totally unfightable.
Pistol PEs can do the same as te pistol PEs did, popping in and out of stealth wearing down the target, a skilled stealther will recieve little or no damage from the target as the time between stealths is so low. Spies can easily cap the weapons that even in the hands of a PE do horrific damage (which is right, spies can use better weapons better than a PE, kinda the whole offence vs defence balance in action), but coupled with stealth overpowers to an extent, just like it did the PEs. The snipers will still be able to do what they do now, but the hit and run tactics (which are cool but ultimately overpowered) should be curbed somewhat.
Feel free to rip that to shreads, I know you want to.
Anything to humiliate and debunk me and my ideas in front of everyone.LOL. Uh, I guess you and I have had discussions before? Seriously man, I never humiliate (or even try to) ANYONE in this forum unless they act like an asshole.
In this case, you offer a solution. I was only suggesting that perhaps the problem of stealth whoring wont be as bad when PEs no longer have access to it.
I say that because what makes the stealth whore a problem is that they unstealth and attack. If you cannot kill them before they restealth, then its like they will never die. You see, its the defense of the PEs that make them unkillable in a short time. Spies lack the same defense, so they are always going to be more killable.
EVERY PE in the game, with perhaps minor exceptions, can have GREAT defense, no matter what their specialty. Even the odd variants, like HC or MC PEs still have the shelter and bless def- and heck, they even can wear duranit 4/inq 4. The normal PE variants can use the spells, and dont have as good armor, but they have better attacks. So just about EVERY PE... save APU PEs if those exist... has superb defense. Its that defense that makes whoring a problem.
With Spies, you will find TONS of spies using stealth that have CRAP for defense. The only spies with even decent defense will be the pure combat spies, and even then they wont have shelter or bless deflector. So the problem wont be AS BAD with spies being the only ones having stealth.
And for crying out loud, I would never attack someone or someone argument based on a misuse of a word. Just because I dont agree with you that doesnt mean I use tactics like that to express myself. :mad:
I wish stealth would be removed all together. I think it is a cheap solution, but as long as there is no difference in runspeed (also runspeed being to high across the board) between classes and 95 % of the weapons are only effective in short to medium engagements and therefor pretty much used the same way, and the 100 million extra exp you have to lvl gives you lousy damage performance gain(alot of the 20 lvls of dex more than the PE goes away in the moveon strength booster setup)I have a hard time finding another solution for spies.
Ok dribble...... tell us when you ever played a highlevel pistol spy and were able to kill everyone using short stealth shoot rinze repeat method?
A spy does not have great defences, he also can't slap on a awesome heal like a pe, hell if he tries to slap on a heal, he'll have lost so much health from staying there that he can't make up with the heal.
A sniper spy unkillable? Been there. clipping plane range sucks, basicaly everyone can see your outline if you're able to snipe em, reload time sucks in sniper rifles so you can take one shot, stealth and by that time they have moved or are after your ass.
Please try it out before you attempt to draw some attention to your very simplistic arguments.
Right now i think there is good ballance ingame. Although spies need to be near capped to be able to do any good dammage they are viable, a lot harder to play and die alot more, but viable.
___T-X____
13-05-04, 17:12
I see all the bitter PE's posting. fuck off
Ok dribble...... tell us when you ever played a highlevel pistol spy and were able to kill everyone using short stealth shoot rinze repeat method?
A spy does not have great defences, he also can't slap on a awesome heal like a pe, hell if he tries to slap on a heal, he'll have lost so much health from staying there that he can't make up with the heal.
A sniper spy unkillable? Been there. clipping plane range sucks, basicaly everyone can see your outline if you're able to snipe em, reload time sucks in sniper rifles so you can take one shot, stealth and by that time they have moved or are after your ass.
Please try it out before you attempt to draw some attention to your very simplistic arguments.
Right now i think there is good ballance ingame. Although spies need to be near capped to be able to do any good dammage they are viable, a lot harder to play and die alot more, but viable.Spies are FAR away from that bad you are implying here.
A spy can get a heal as good as a PE. Can get defenses close to a PE. And is (well at least a lil bit) better using the high end guns. Requires high end equipment and some drugs though but hey same with PEs, right?
Even sniping isnt as bad as you say, it still takes some time to realize youre getting sniped and then to find out where from the enemy is shooting. just dont limit yourself to the SH, theres better rifles.
I have to say i somehow agree with DJ. Taking stealth away completely is a bit harsh. I would prefer the "charge" sulution he mentions but with a shorter periods until you can restealth. Theres already lag that makes it hard to restealth real quick. :)
On the other hand, removing stealth from PEs will change PEs. There wont be 95% hitech pistol PEs using executioner or slasher, there will be lowtech Pes again, using rifles and pistols. At least thats what i think (and hope! I HATE PEs using guns that should be reserved for spies).
And just to make sure, i got a capped rifle spy, a highlevel pistol spy and 2 capped PEs, one using rifles, one using pistols.
..and all I see are worried spies acting the same was as PE's did when they discovered that they might loose stealth. O_o
Being grown up about this, lets think about the issue.. apparantly the main issue.. why PE's have had stealth taken away from them in the patch. It's the whole fight - run - heal rinse and repeat thing. This is a tactic that can be applied by any class that can use stealth (I've seen a melee tank using stealth before.. nerfed but nasty), and this includes Spies.
By reducing the number of people who can use stealth, you are of course going to see a considerable drop in the use of this tactic, but it's still going to exist, and some Spies are still going to use it. The counter arguement to this would seem to be that the Spy can not do this as effectively as a PE, but this is not entirely true. The chances are, the PE is going to be using drugs, because using stealth, being fast, doing great damage AND having great resists is only going to happen with the help of one or more tasty chemical treats. When you bring drugs into the equation, the Spy is just as capable of carrying out the tactic, if not more so. To say that the use of drugs for a Spy is unreasonable, unpractical or just unrealistic has some truth in it, but this is equally the case for PE's. As a PE I'd hate to be using a Slasher, Executioner, First Love or Disruptor.
So, as a solution to the problem of Stealth abuse, irrespective of the class using the tool, I'd say this is a valid idea, but perhaps the exact values are a little harsh. 25, 15, 10 and 5 might be better.
EDIT: Made a few grammar changes.
You can't argue with most spies, Dribble. They get rabid if you suggest ever touching one of their toys. Their responses will sum up to this: "My character sucks and would die if you sneezed. If you want to remove/reduce/nerf stealth then you must hate spies and want to be able to kill them anytime you see one. Since naturaly without steatlh, a spy is as good as dead, you must want us to all go back to tradeskilling."
I don't mean to be patronizing, but this has come from personal experience. Way back when True Sight Sanctum was first introduced, I made a thread about how useless it was and that it should be fixed. This prompted an army of spies to repeat aforementioned response until I gave up.
What prompted me to post the thread was a particullarly annoying op fight I had just been in. After we cleared out the attackers from our op, they still had a couple stealthing spies in the area. My TSS was totaly useless, in fact one of their spies was having fun with me. He would stay within range to talk on local and say things like "Right behind you!" "Where are you going?" "Over here!" With our entire team spread out, we could not capture this guy. It took us so long infact that our enemy had time to regroup and return to the op to catch us spread out.
I seriously believe that the experience of a stealther vs a person hunting a stealther are dramaticly different. The stealther feels hugely vulnerable wereas the hunter is hugely fustrated. From the moment you vanish, you can go in 360 degrees. A popular trick is for the stealther to run right towards and past the person hunting them. Since that's prolly the least likely path they'd guess the stealther took.
It is my opinion that Stealth is the second best defense in the game, next to PPU's. It is certainly just as annoying as PPU's defense is, and in some ways worse. In all my time in Neocron I have had many good and bad fights, I've had truely challenging opponennts and real bastards too. But none of them compare to my top 3 most annoying fights. They are the most annoying because of how the game works, not because of skill (tho i guess it does take skill to take advantage of the system correctly).
The worst is obviously, the ppu that does not die. Sending an entire army to chase around one person for 15 minutes only to have them gr out leaves us standing there with an empty victory. How can you be excited by forcing someone to gr out? I've fought against the very best ppu's and even done the same myself. A good ppu just sucks the fun out pvp sometimes.
Second is stealth. Unless you were lucky enough to tag them with a dmg boost or shock, stealth is a get away free card. Even with dmg boost, I've trailed someone who stayed stealthed longer then the dmg boost lasted. When you're left standing there cause you lost their trail, its game over. Yet another ruined pvp experience.
Third are droners, but due to being overly nerfed they havn't been a problem for a long time. When they weren't so sucky though, Drones gave me migraines. A small target that moves fast in semi random directions. Targeting it is tough because the target box does not always come up intime. Lag can cause it to appear to stand still on your screen when in actuality it's behind you. Shooting it while it's stuck results in fizzles or wasted ammo. When Holy Paralysis had decent range I could fight back against droners, but afterwards their range far surpasses mine.
Fighting any of those 3 are the least fun I can do in pvp. I'd rather stoop to ganking people then fight one of these 3. PPU's are Monks and thus it's alright to have a discussion about nerfing or destroying the class all together. Because Monks are obviously unbalanced in their favor and there's already precedent for Monk Bashing. Stealthers and Droners though are most often Spies and any discussion involving spies gets shot down. For the most part that's ok, because spies are in need of boosting. You can't seriously talk about weakening the class thats already the weakest. But there will come a time when Spies aren't weak anymore, and things like Stealth will become a huge issue.
Actually, I like this.
Katherine Meyer's suggested times sound good to be honest.
I also have to agree with Carinth about Truesight Sanctum; I've seen it tried to be used a few times, to no avail. I think it needs to at least get's it's sphere of influence doubled.
...
Wait...
Curse these wretched fingers! They're making me nerf my own class! :p
EDIT: My original thoughts were actually "Go away you 3 day old kabab you", but as I had not voted yet (Never do first time I visit a thread, always think about it a bit beforehand), I can still provide the proper vote.
I don't particularly want TSS improved, because I don't want ppu's to be stealth fighters. We've got more then enough responsiblitly already. Anti stealth should exist in some way, I would be more inclined to give it too spies who can't stealth. Much in the same way that antibuff is given to apu's so they can fight ppu's.
{MD}GeistDamnit
13-05-04, 22:30
Now that stealth is spy only, they shoulden't fuck with it no more. Making it have a time limit is BS, and just the fact that you can't pull a weapon stealthed is enough of a drawback.
QuantumDelta
13-05-04, 22:40
Stealth*whore* spies are exactly the same as stealth*whore* PEs.
People who don't abuse the tool are fine.
However people that do belong in both classes.
the TOOL needs to be adjusted, it didn't need to be removed from PEs and it doesn't need to be REMOVED from Spies, DJ is on the right track with this and that idea is the best one, the times should be revisable, but generally speaking that's the ONLY WAY to really fix this problem.
Especially since as I have said before Spies can be configured to be just as powerful as PEs, and, if configured correctly, more so.
Actually, I'd be quite interested to see some proof of that at some point QD.
Currently, I tend to agree with Strych9, that a spy does not have the same defence as a PE, and therefore is killable while he's unstealthed. Mainly though that's because even the best spies I've fought don't feel as tough as the best PEs, and also because the spy setups I've cooked up don't match PE setups for defence, but maybe I'm just overlooking something.
Carinth, though going slightly off topic, also makes some good points, which I agree with fully.
In my opinion though the problem with stealth is that it doesn't have a specific purpose. The general concensus is that it should be a guerilla warfare tool. But KK hasn't defined it. Look at how stealth performs in different areas:
As a surveillance/espionage tool: Average. You can scout an OP, but you can't use it within the city, and in the times between stealths you appear on everybody's local list, exposing you.
As a guerilla warfare tool: Again average. There are two main problems with it: one, the delay between when you see someone and when you can actually stealth is usually enough for him to spot you and therefore know you are in the area. Second, it requires drugs to actually put you in an ideal attack position - behind the enemy at optimal weapon range.
As a defence: Excellent. If there's no PPU around, and you want to just get away and survive, with no intention of fighting, stealth can make you completely invulnerable. While stealthed, you are immune to damage in almost any form, droners have to switch drones, melee tanks can't hit you at all, direct monk attacks don't work and they end up having to run through any barrels they cast at you. CS can deal a tiny bit of damage but you move faster than the CS wielding tank, and he can only deal damage at absolute point blank range. AoE cannons require the tank to stop, and therefore lose any blue haze he was following. The brief periods between steaths when a stealther is vulnerable are too short to leave him seriously damaged. A little experience in getting away stealthed teaches you how to get out using only one or two stealths, and that leaves you free to heal.
Also, though you can't instantly stealth, it is still extremely difficult to kill a spy who can stealth even after you sneak up on him. After 1 shot he's dodging, after two he's hitting the stealth slot, after 3 or 4 he's invisible and immune. You get an advantage by sneaking up, sure you can DB him or whatever, but 9/10 he'll notice you casting DB and then you lose any chance to damage him, while he stealths and pops a drug. Also DB tends to not show up after a few seconds on people atm (anyone else getting this?).
IMO stealth should not be a defence, it should be a surveillance/spying tool, or a guerilla warfare tool. Ideally both, with separate tools. Surveillance tool gives you 5 minutes of stealth, but needs a certain imp in which gives you the same negatives as the machina gloves. It has a charge, which goes down as you get close to people and goes up when you are far away from them. If it hits zero, you destealth. So if you stay too close to people, you become visible, and you have to use it for actual spying. The guerilla warfare tool would be usable without the imp so you can still use weapons when unstealthed, but it only lasts for a short time, max 20 seconds. It also cannot be used if there is anyone nearby. You have to use it to fight like a real guerilla - use it to gain the upper hand and provide you with a fight which you have a good chance of winning. E.g. stealth, destealth behind a Tank, lay into him, he's on 350 HP before he even draws his weapon, gives you a good chance of killing him. Once he's dead, you can hit the tool again to make a getaway before anyone sees what happened - but if they do, you can't just hit stealth for a get away free card.
That's how I think stealth should work anyway. :p
I've found that often what you get are tradeskiller spies or spies that just aren't setup idealy for combat. They're the ones that can be killed while stealthed, and often are the ones that yell the loudest that stealthers are weak and super easy to take down. Put stealth in the hands of a pure combat spy who knows what he's doin and he's just as bad as any stealth abusing pe. The same situation exists for ppus, it's unfair to weaken our shelter/heal accross the board when tradeskiller/gimps ppu's are more or less just fine. It's the combat ppu's that stand out and are a problem.
Also, re Stealth's Uses: Don't forget non PVP aspects of it. Being able to sneak past angry mobs is hugely useful. Spies used to need an escort almost anywhere they went, with stealth then can get around on their own. And of course there's stealth belt looting, a spy can slip in and loot team belts without your enemies noticing.
With Spies, you will find TONS of spies using stealth that have CRAP for defense. The only spies with even decent defense will be the pure combat spies, and even then they wont have shelter or bless deflector. So the problem wont be AS BAD with spies being the only ones having stealth.
I have a few problems with this, Strych9
It won't be as bad because only spies will have it, so less people will have stealth, therefore making the problem not "AS BAD". Also spies can have just as good resists as a _high_ tech PE, as in those going for exec/slasher/fl/dis/sh. And shelter is only one drug away. Sure they have to use a drug, but a PE has to use a drug to use the same weapons a spy can. And a spy's con/armor is equivilant or better than a PE's.
Ok dribble...... tell us when you ever played a highlevel pistol spy and were able to kill everyone using short stealth shoot rinze repeat method?
A spy does not have great defences, he also can't slap on a awesome heal like a pe, hell if he tries to slap on a heal, he'll have lost so much health from staying there that he can't make up with the heal.
A sniper spy unkillable? Been there. clipping plane range sucks, basicaly everyone can see your outline if you're able to snipe em, reload time sucks in sniper rifles so you can take one shot, stealth and by that time they have moved or are after your ass.
Please try it out before you attempt to draw some attention to your very simplistic arguments.
Winnoc, when have YOU ever played a highlevel pistol spy? A spy does have great defenses, very close to a PE's with comparable weapons, but I explained that earlier. They make up for the slightly worse defense with better offense (in terms of damage percentage and shots per minute).
Ok, "can't slap on an awesome heal like a pe" ? What's that about? Since when is the heal that PEs use any better than what Spies use? Are you telling me that your highlevel pistol spy can't cap a tl3 heal damage and frequency? If you can't, you're doing something horribly wrong. I know tanks who can cap frequency on a tl3 heal, just like a PE. And tanks have half the psi that a Spy does and 1/5 the int.
Reload time doesn't suck with sniper rifles. Me, as a PE, can use a silent hunter (nowhere close to capped damage or freq or aiming), easilly fire off an entire clip (4 shots) which can take down some tanks, any spy or apu, and some PEs, before they even notice me. Even after they notice me I can reload and fire one or two more shots before I'm in range of their guns (excluding other snipers of course). If I can do that as a PE with crap percentages on a silent hunter, a spy should be able to do much better.
Sorry winnoc, but all your arguments are flawed. I seriously doubt you've played a high level spy. Even if you have, it's not properly setup and you're not terribly good at using it.
And yes, I have played high level pistol spies and rifle spies, incase you're going to ask. They're better than you think.
Edit: Sorry, just noticed that SorkZmok made an almost identical post, but I went into a little more detail. lol.
OK - I've held off till now hoping someone would post the obvious problem ... hasn't happened, so I'll do it now ;)
If there's one thing I know, and know inside-out, back to front, it's how to play a combat spy.
I know and have experimented with the subtle plusses and minuses of more spy setups than most players have had hot dinners, I have fought every class, and every variant of every class in pretty much every scenario you can imagine.
I think it's fair to say that anyone who has played with me/against me will accept that I know my shit ;)
So - the overall statement of situation:
A spy dies too fast, relative to other classes.
It really is that simple.
In more detail :-
Without stealth and in a fight where the enemy's attention is on us we simply cannot deliver enough damage, in the short time we have to survive, to drop them before they drop us.
Spy vs APU :
Elapsed battle time : 4.5 seconds
Result: Dead spy. APU with 25 to 35% health left if the spy was *very* good and the APU was crap.
Spy vs Tank :
Elapsed battle time: 10 seconds
Result : Dead spy. Tank with > 50% health if the spy was *very* good and the tank was crap.
Spy vs PE :
Elapsed battle time : 15 seconds
Result: Dead spy. PE with 40 to 50% health if the spy was *very* good and the PE was crap
Can you see the common trend here ?
Spy always dead in < 15 secs.
With one exception ...
Spy vs PPU :
Elapsed battle time: However long it takes for the PPU to call someone with an offensive capability.
(Since the spy will be permanently nailed to the floor apart from the occasional third of a second when the anti-para drugs take effect they can take as long as they bloody like. If SoulClusters ever get fixed, then not even that.)
Result: Dead spy. PPU is at full health before your quickbelt hits the floor
The counterbalancing factors to the poor survival time are supposedly range and damage capability.
If I really need to tell anyone why the range argument is fucked then they have no business being in this thread.
As far as damage capability goes - in some scenarios and setups it can seem reasonable when raw weapon numbers are compared with other classes ... effective comparative damage registered on enemies is a whole different ballgame - it's nowhere near enough to balance out.
The major difference between spy & PE stealth use is that a PE can absorb little enough damage between heal/stealth cycles that they end up with a net health increase.
A spy can't - he can lose enough health in the 2.5 seconds he's exposed to require a full 60 seconds downtime completely away from the combat.
There's an old maxim that applies well to the situation a combat spy faces daily ...
*I* have to be lucky all the time.
You have to be lucky *once*. :(
This post has gone on too long already - I'll save some of the finer argument points or specific scenario rebuttals for replies. :D
Original monk
14-05-04, 09:01
PAs have lost stealth, which tbhj they should never have got.
I'm not here about PEs, so we can ignore the stuff currently being banged on about in those other threads.
However.
Stealth has not been removed, spies can still use it, and can use all levels.
The problem I see, is that the the problems that gave rise to the PE stealth issue, can and will come up again in the future.
The abuse of stealth units is obvious, people popping in and out of stealth and generally being 'stealth whores'.
So, little idea that probably has in various forms been put forward before, but here goes again.
If it is possible within the restrictions of the game mechanics, give stealth tools a rate of fire/recharge rate. Times not inclusive of the stealth time.
Stealth 1 - 1 min.
Stealth 2 - 45 secs.
Stealth 3 - 20 secs.
Obliterator - 10 secs.
So only those willing to gimp significantly will be able to 'stealth whore' (but even then, you would be uncloaked for a min of 10 seconds).
Oh, and stealth units should be usable within stealth, activating again ends the stealth, the charge time remains the same. Get rid of those sodding drugs.
Only problem I see is people with 3 or 4 (or more) tools in their QB, but then QB slots are at a premium, maybe it isn't too bad...
thing that i read here is: if i dont get stealth ... then no-one will ...
please dont compare the poor spy's to a pe :) its not like spy's have semi-ppu buffs ... (and dont start whining about druggin fo a nibshelter)
leave the stealth alone, onlything that had to happen was to make it spy-only ... stealthtools have been nerfed allready in duration, togheter with there stats changed ... wich probably was also a way to make it harder for PE's to use ... but now KK notices that it doesnt have any use they make it spy only anyway ...
luckely
Right on kurai.
Well, you are all going on about spies being equal to pe's and being great in battles, then why oh why isn't everyone playing one?
1) They have to be capped or near capped with a few expensive or hard to obtain chips
2) They take forever to level up
3)You'll be going through drugs like there's no tomorrow
4) You are basicaly constantly dying if you try to pvp a lot.
sir retail
14-05-04, 10:03
i think its fine like it is..
put a heal on him and you can see the stealther..
problem solved.
greets
DigestiveBiscui
14-05-04, 10:06
it's a funy thread, because now PE's have lost stealth spies will be going nuts due to the fact they might die again :p
So what's gonna happen to our stealth tools ? They just gonna "disappear" ? Good Job KK !
Seriously I'm gonna be pwned so badly in OP wars as soon as that Icy sound comes ... yes the FUCKING PARASHOCK WHICH THEY DIDNT REMOVE but "tweaked" which makes no difference so yeah fuck u KK..
Original monk
14-05-04, 11:32
So what's gonna happen to our stealth tools ? They just gonna "disappear" ? Good Job KK !
Seriously I'm gonna be pwned so badly in OP wars as soon as that Icy sound comes ... yes the FUCKING PARASHOCK WHICH THEY DIDNT REMOVE but "tweaked" which makes no difference so yeah fuck u KK..
stop whining about parashock ... btw when youre in stealth and parashocked then youre fucked anyway ... cause ya cant walk + people see you + plasma or an areaspell and we got ourselves another dead PE ...
Freaky Fryd
14-05-04, 11:44
While stealthed, you are immune to damage in almost any form, droners have to switch drones, melee tanks can't hit you at all, direct monk attacks don't work and they end up having to run through any barrels they cast at you. CS can deal a tiny bit of damage but you move faster than the CS wielding tank, and he can only deal damage at absolute point blank range. AoE cannons require the tank to stop, and therefore lose any blue haze he was following.
- Melee tanks can both shock and strike stealthed runners (I've had it happen to me)
- CS/Judge/FL can do pretty harsh damage to a stealthed runner, if they're quick about it
- AoE cannons can stop a stealthed runner to a crawl with one lucky shot (blows out their legs), and the tank doesn't even have to stop running
- PPUs can drop a para-barrel, which hurts a little, and stops us quite quickly
(also, a stealther can be hit 1 or 2 times even after stealthing, due to the monk starting to cast the HL/FA/etc before stealth engaged)
put a heal on him and you can see the stealther..
problem solved.
Heh...yeah, if they're only using Stealth 1.
;)
(which I actually think is reasonable for PEs to keep...but cut out Stealth 2+ for sure)
I use Stealth 2, and I run like a mutha...that heal tactic has been used on me, and all it did was make me laugh...well, and gain health...
:p
stop whining about parashock ... btw when youre in stealth and parashocked then youre fucked anyway ... cause ya cant walk + people see you + plasma or an areaspell and we got ourselves another dead PE ...
I've been shocked, damage boosted, standing IN the true sight sanctum, while being attacked (most recently: 1) by a Exec Spy 2) Judge PE) and still gotten away. I've done this a few times, but I can't claim it's even close to being all skill. It's partially due to the timing of the drugs, but a lot of luck is involved too.
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