View Full Version : Replacement for PEs - New eye implant
As a disclaimer I'd like to say I agree 100% with PEs not having stealth but I disagree 100% with not giving them any thing as a replacement. There are plenty of other threads for that. I just wanted to suggest a replacement item. I mentioned it in one of the test server threads but no one replied to it. Buhu. :(
So here we go. Here is the item.
Anti-Stealth Eye
REQ: DEX 80, PEs only
INT+4
T-C+10
WEP+15
The PE would be able to see the stealthed spy. He wouldnt be able to get a lock on him but could see him just as if he wasnt stealthed.
Personally I think this would be a very cool replacement item. Thoughts?
Dribble Joy
12-05-04, 19:47
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....
Nice, but would be better if it was a pistol/rifle 3 eye rather than a smart cyber 4. :p
Jetpacks if not that.
would need some sort of penalty...
I think the other boosts are slightly too good in this case considering the lack of penalties for using one. I'd get rid of the T-C bonus, and reduce wep bonus to 10; this way you'd basically choose between either more damage from the normal eyes, or the added bonus of having an easier time hunting down spies.
An addition of some kind of penalties could work as well; though it's hard to decide what as it should support all possible career lines for PEs (That is, Melee, Heavy Combat, Rifle and Pistol, all of which are viable options).
Idea in itself is good though.
Name should probably be changed a bit too.
BioTech Scanner Eye would work.
I dont think that because KK puts PEs back to a way they used to be, that PEs deserve ANY sort of compensation.
But I do like the idea of SOMEONE being able to see stealthers.
Now regarding the eye, why should it have ANY bonuses aside from seeing stealth??? I mean, at the very LEAST it needs massive negatives if it is to have the specs you name below. I mean, a PE has to at least alter his setup to use stealth. But this eye would be THE most useful implant for a PE. No other eye can even hold a candle to that.
So while I like the idea of an eye that sees stealth, I think the one you have listed is WAAAAY overboard.
And it would be confusing to have have stealthers appear normal but untargetable. You would have to aim at them to recognize them as being stealthed. So I say make them visible, but visually different so you know they are stealthed.
or... they are still in stealth mode i.e. the blue mist stuff, BUT you can get a lock... means you still need skill to use the eye, ands spies aren't fucked when a pe comes to hunt the stealther spy down.
Heavyporker
12-05-04, 19:59
no +int or t-c. lower +wep-lore.
Well Ive made plenty of PE setups in my career and tbh I dont think this eye is any where near overpowered with other additions. I sure as hell wouldnt wear it on my PE. :lol: I think the Int should stay, though perhaps taking off weapon lore would be good. I think some tech should stay I think 10 is a good number.
The point is that stealth itself requires sacrafices. To use stealth, you have to have TC, which droners and low tech rifle/pistol users and tradeskillers dont otherwise have to have. Stealth itself limits what you can and cant do.
So why should the item that totally removes ALL functionality of stealth be an always on, beneficial item? So you sacrafice a Pistol Eye 3... you still get TC which frees up some Dex and you get WL which really helps pistols (as I now fully know).
Considering that Spies cant stay stealthed, or attack while stealthed... having an always on Stealth eye seems a bit much.
Dribble Joy
12-05-04, 20:06
I think it was the concept that was put forward, the implementation being secondary.
How about a tool (say a scanner/visor), that goes in the QB (lke stealth), and has similar reqs?
NO!
OMG, stop with the "we need compensation" crap.
slaughteruall
12-05-04, 20:11
A jack of all trades class should not get something special.
How about a tool (say a scanner/visor), that goes in the QB (lke stealth), and has similar reqs?That would work. Something the PE must choose to activate.
Dribble Joy
12-05-04, 20:15
NO!
OMG, stop with the "we need compensation" crap.
Why? Why the fuck not?
Just because you don't agree.
I agree PEs should never got stealth, stealth did increase the PEs defensive abilities, due to the way it could be abused, and this needed to be corrected, which it has, but that is not the point.
Without it, however, they have lost an ability that made them (to an extent), usefull.
My reason for supporting some 'compensation' for the loss of PE stealth is that PEs are of use to a team again (whether they ever were is another matter), not because of a defensive/combat effectivness loss.
A jack of all trades class should not get something special.
If anyone is the JOAT, it's the spy.
A PE simply relies on all main stats in order to be effective, that's it.
A jack of all trades class should not get something special.
No.... Stay back. BACK I TELL YOU!!!
*twitches*
If anyone is the JOAT, it's the spy.
A PE simply relies on all main stats in order to be effective, that's it.Hrm.
So what, aside from Stealth, is it a PE cant do that a Spy can? I can think of tons of things a PE has access to that a Spy does not.. yet having trouble seeing the other side of that.
In this game there is no such thing as a JOAT.
You have to specialise to take part in PvP. PvP is an integral part of the game. If you specialise (especially if you are a PE) then you cannot do anything else, except maybe imp or hack if you are a pistol PE.
In this game there is no such thing as a JOAT.
You have to specialise to take part in PvP. PvP is an integral part of the game. If you specialise (especially if you are a PE) then you cannot do anything else, except maybe imp or hack if you are a pistol PE.Maybe JOAT referst options available, rather than being everything at the same time????
The class, as a whole, is a JOAT. That doesnt mean YOUR PE as you specced him can do a little of everything.
Heavyporker
12-05-04, 20:35
yep. JOAT means the CAPABILITY to do a bit of everything. YOu wanna specialize, well, yeah, go ahed and do that, Don't complain you can't do something ELSE at the SAME TIME!
There's tradeskiller PEs, even though conceptually they shouldn't do as well as Spies. There's H-C Pes, even though conceptually they shoudn't do as well as Gentanks.
I kinda like it...
I think it would be cool if PEs became a lowtech class though. If only they would add a another lowtech pistol/rilfle... That way they wouldnt suck and could only use lower TL weapons. Then give them a lowtech style tool for maybe agility/movement to replace stealth. Maybe a tool for high jumping with a 20 second delay between uses? That would OWN. PE/Termi and Lib/Earp are both worth playing with. Just add a rare automatic or nailgun pistol and a rare street model rifle. :cool:
Come on you know I'm right.
Dribble Joy
12-05-04, 20:37
Yes, but those PEs are still specialised.
A JOAT is a char that can do lots of things at the same time.
A spy has a greater capacity to do this than a PE.
Eg, a spy can imp, cst and hack to reasonable levels, and use pistols recycle and drive.
A PE cannot.
My only question is in Pimp Ken or Streetwalker Barbie?
Clownst0pper
12-05-04, 21:23
So if my APU damage on spells gets nerfed, I should get a new apu rare.
Or because my devourer got nerfed, I should get a new special skill?
PE's shouldnt have something new because stealth was removed, jesus thats so childish and un founded.
It was removed to give spys some individuality.
So if my APU damage on spells gets nerfed, I should get a new apu rare.
actually, yes, that seems to be the general consensus here the past 2 days :lol:
since our mosquito drone lost one of its shots we should get a TC bonus on all our implants, even our psi glove..... :lol:
Dribble Joy
12-05-04, 21:35
So if my APU damage on spells gets nerfed, I should get a new apu rare.
Or because my devourer got nerfed, I should get a new special skill?
PE's shouldnt have something new because stealth was removed, jesus thats so childish and un founded.
It was removed to give spys some individuality.
If ALL a tank's/apu's weapons/offense in general got nerfed, then yes, give them something use/do.
Like I said in all these threads, PEs have little use at all, spies have now got their own individual use/ability, why should PEs not be of use?
Even if stealth was allways spy only from the begining, PEs still need something to do and/or have a use.
With stealth they had a (limited) use, without it, they don't.
Curse my utterly crap english writing skills and inability to get my point across.
Yes, but those PEs are still specialised.
A JOAT is a char that can do lots of things at the same time.
A spy has a greater capacity to do this than a PE.
Eg, a spy can imp, cst and hack to reasonable levels, and use pistols recycle and drive.
A PE cannot.Well by your standards, I can make a PE that can
1. Hack WBs
2. Imp TL 84
3. Easily build non-rares to capped quality and max slot chances
4. Recycle his own ammo
5. Drive and gun combat vehicles
6. Use Melee weapons
7. Use Heavy Weapons
8. Use pistols or rifles
9. Cast Blessed Deflector and Shelter
10. Run at full speed
Come on, if you let go of you "gotta be uber" hangup then yes, a PE can do a whole lot of stuff at once, with much more variety than a Spy can.
Clownst0pper
12-05-04, 21:46
The PE is designed to be a single, self sufficiant fighting character.
it ISNT designed to do a spy out of a job, which is what it does now.
It is however designed for indepent character play style and PVP, being self sufficiant is a bloody good ability in itself
So if my APU damage on spells gets nerfed, I should get a new apu rare.
Or because my devourer got nerfed, I should get a new special skill?
PE's shouldnt have something new because stealth was removed, jesus thats so childish and un founded.
It was removed to give spys some individuality.
No. Every other class got a new toy recently, be it rares or stealth. And spies are also getting holovests. PEs were fine with having the dregs of the spies toys, but now we have none due to this nerf. Its not that we need a toy to be balanced... its that we want one because everyother class has got one.
yep. JOAT means the CAPABILITY to do a bit of everything. YOu wanna specialize, well, yeah, go ahed and do that, Don't complain you can't do something ELSE at the SAME TIME! There's tradeskiller PEs, even though conceptually they shouldn't do as well as Spies. There's H-C Pes, even though conceptually they shoudn't do as well as Gentanks.
Bullshit. To take part in PvP PEs have to specialise. This is a PvP game.
PEs still need something to do and/or have a use.
I thought that was psi. :confused: Well I'm not really against PEs getting some toy in the end although the demanding i'm seeing alot is bleh. Personally I think PEs should be the bounty hunter class. They should have a tracker tool that they can use when they accept a bounty via citycom then they can go to the zone and use tool there to find a trace of the person. For maybe a moment that arrow direction will appear at the top of the screen indicating the direction to move. You can only use the tool every min or so. So in this case you can zero in on target and kill. report back to citycom to collect reward. Although I think a killed bounty should have some penalty hit so people won't just let their friend kill them so they both can get the bounty. Maybe when you've been killed as a bounty you can't be Rez'd and all imps fall out :p errr I could see that being abused for op wars though >_<
OOOOOps i think i got off topic >_<
Dribble Joy
12-05-04, 21:57
Well by your standards, I can make a PE that can
1. Hack WBs
2. Imp TL 84
3. Easily build non-rares to capped quality and max slot chances
A spy could cap rares and hack OPs though. or do the ones you sugested and be able to bp as well.
4. Recycle his own ammo
5. Drive and gun combat vehicles
6. Use Melee weapons
7. Use Heavy Weapons
8. Use pistols or rifles
Which a spy can do too.
9. Cast Blessed Deflector and Shelter
Fair nuff.
10. Run at full speed
Same as with 5,6,7 and 8.
Come on, if you let go of you "gotta be uber" hangup then yes, a PE can do a whole lot of stuff at once, with much more variety than a Spy can.
O_o, a spy has a considerably larger amount of points to spend in dex and int than a PE, so if a spy can do all the above (if not as well) with more variety in dex and int (higher lvl main stat too, which gives access to better imps), who is the better JOAT?
No. Every other class got a new toy recently, be it rares or stealth. And spies are also getting holovests. PEs were fine with having the dregs of the spies toys, but now we have none due to this nerf. Its not that we need a toy to be balanced... its that we want one because everyother class has got one.LOL. Wow, thanks for saying exactly what so many other people were just hinting at and pretending otherwise.
Yeah, we know this is just about PEs seizing a chance to beg/whine for a new toy. Thanks for at least being honest about it.
Bullshit. To take part in PvP PEs have to specialise. This is a PvP game.Uh... EVERYONE has to specialize to be effective in PvP. Welcome to Neocron.
slaughteruall
12-05-04, 22:01
No. Every other class got a new toy recently, be it rares or stealth. And spies are also getting holovests. PEs were fine with having the dregs of the spies toys, but now we have none due to this nerf. Its not that we need a toy to be balanced... its that we want one because everyother class has got one.
Bullshit. To take part in PvP PEs have to specialise. This is a PvP game.
For the love of god. You lose stealth and your crying that your worthless now. You lost one toy big fricken deal. Get over it already.
EVERY class has to specialise. A PvP HC tank has all points into HC & WEP. Is that not specialisation i dont know what it. A apu has to spec alot of APU same with a PPu. Once again that is specialisation. A spy has to specialise into RC or PC. Stop crying and figure your setup out. You choose the class now deal with it. That is what everyone keeps telling the monks after each nerf. Next thing you PE's will want a DEX skill point release because you might have to take a few LOM's.
Slaughter
You choose the class now deal with it. That is what everyone keeps telling the monks after each nerf. Next thing you PE's will want a DEX skill point release because you might have to take a few LOM's.
So because KK is crap at balancing we shouldn't try to help them achieve "fine tuning" instead of "sledge-hammer treatment" ?
LOL. Wow, thanks for saying exactly what so many other people were just hinting at and pretending otherwise.
Yeah, we know this is just about PEs seizing a chance to beg/whine for a new toy. Thanks for at least being honest about it.Uh...
Meh, if everyone else has one then why shouldn't we?
EVERYONE has to specialize to be effective in PvP. Welcome to Neocron.
That was my point. Heavyporker seemed to think that we could be effective at PvP and be Joats. Dead wrong.
For the love of god. You lose stealth and your crying that your worthless now.
Find one quote where I say PEs are worthless.
You lost one toy big fricken deal. Get over it already. EVERY class has to specialise. A PvP HC tank has all points into HC & WEP. Is that not specialisation i dont know what it. A apu has to spec alot of APU same with a PPu. Once again that is specialisation. A spy has to specialise into RC or PC.
I'll repeat myself then:
That was my point. Heavyporker seemed to think that we could be effective at PvP and be Joats. Dead wrong.
I am also WELL aware that everyone has to specialise, I was merely showing at PEs also have to specialise to take part in PvP. There is no magical feature that lets us be Joats and also good in PvP.
Stop crying and figure your setup out. You choose the class now deal with it. That is what everyone keeps telling the monks after each nerf. Next thing you PE's will want a DEX skill point release because you might have to take a few LOM's.
I think something is wrong. So I'm going to complain. I pay for the game, I have the right to complain when I think that something is wrong. And, I also don't care about what everyone tells monks.
NO!
OMG, stop with the "we need compensation" crap.
Look pal I can use a libby and an earp thats it I got no toys I won't go hightech unless I get an SA. Tanks apu's and spys all got some nice weapons and lots of them all I got is a cap gun why the hell should we not get a new toy?
Aziraphale
12-05-04, 22:44
I think it was the concept that was put forward, the implementation being secondary.
How about a tool (say a scanner/visor), that goes in the QB (lke stealth), and has similar reqs?
THIS i like. I like a lot.
Make it so that just as with stealth, you cant use anything else while its active, and only allow the PE using it to see the stealther.
You might say this makes it useless, I say it would be veeerrryyy useful when tracking down spies.
Maybe give it limited charges though.
Or some kind of spray canister, that fires stealth breaker drugs into the air? Bringing people out of stealth. *shrug* maybe overpowered.
not so keen on the eye implant though, anti-stealth shouldnt be active ALL the time.
Dribble Joy
12-05-04, 23:02
Why are you lot so ferverently against PEs having a unique aspect to them?
Why have you decided that they are either to use the dregs and low level qualities of the other classes or to have nothing?
Why cannot all classes have something unique?
PEs are not JOATS they are not (effectively) bad versions of the other classes skills (though literally and statistically they are).
PEs draw on all main stat lines and their sub skills in order to be effective.
That is all.
This does not make them better or worse than the other classes.
So why are they not allowed to be special in their own right like those other classes?
Ugh, this thread/topicis going to go on forever and I do not want to be banging on about the same stuff over and over untill you lot start having a go at me for not being original.
I cannot be arsed going on any more for the moment, if you want to take that as a victory, well I don't really give a fuck.
I have to draw a comic, and a million other things to do that are better than crawl through this quagmire.
OT: would it be possible to change to colour of the stealth cloud within the client neocron file? :D
PEs are balanced without stealth. they do not need any more toys. the game does NOT need any more "class-only" items. i play a PE 95% of the time, not because i like toys, but because i like NOT HAVING toys.
but because i like NOT HAVING toys.
You like... a masochist or something? :p
make it a rare.... (name = all seeing eye... maybe?) shouldn't be easy to get hold of and it would be better as:
requirements: dex 80 / tc 75 / int 65 [edit] and class PE of corse ^^
anti stealth
pc+8
rc+8
wpl+10
(maybe tc+5)
str - 3 (for the penalty)
this'd make it a desireable but not an over all unbalencing item the strength malus would discourage the very high tech rolh / exe / slasher users but not say the judge users... just a suggestion
You like... a masochist or something? :p
a pure low-tech rifle PE - so yes, i guess i am :).
let me put it another way. i also have a MC tank - not capped. one day, on my low-tech rifle PE, i came across a very good HC tank - an alt of a very skilled player - and took him on, one on one. the fight lasted about 2 minutes, during which i had to heal on the run twice. i also had to use all my STA boosters (2x4 uses). i had to utilise my runspeed to the full, and my slightly faster aim. in the end, all these things, combined with a CON setup tinkered up over 2 years and a highly defensive imp setup (PPR, moveon, FH2), allowed me to, only just, beat the tank.
we congratulated each other on a very good fight and went on our seperate ways, knowing that it could have gone either way, and that another meeting would most likely see things turn out very differently (i was aware that luck had been on my side).
a few weeks later i bump into the same tank on my MC tank. my MC is somewhat cobbled together, having spent a good deal of time just farming rares from WBs. i have recently given him a semi-worked-on CON setup, but he's not capped. i haven't even given him my spare FH2, so he just has FH1. nevertheless my MC was able to beat that other tank in a duel at PP, and then again 6 times out of 7 in NF. and yet i never really felt i beat my opponent - i'm certain he's the better player, not me.
my point? that my PE really needed to be out there, fully on the edge, fully capped, fully imped and fully alert, using all his tricks - a single slip, or hint of bad luck, bringing death. beating that tank on my PE was by far the sweeter victory.
THAT, dear friends, is the point of being a PE - not to coast along, but to be constantly on the brink of disaster.
dang straight a PE should be a masochist.
damnit, for the second time this week i have to agree with clownie.
No
No
NO
PEs should not have anti-stealth eye.
Why should they? whats the point of even having stealth when it gets seen though all the time? :wtf:
my point? that my PE really needed to be out there, fully on the edge, fully capped, fully imped and fully alert, using all his tricks - a single slip, or hint of bad luck, bringing death. beating that tank on my PE was by far the sweeter victory.
THAT, dear friends, is the point of being a PE - not to coast along, but to be constantly on the brink of disaster.
dang straight a PE should be a masochist.
that is why i love playing a PE... as for the eye i dont really care what happens to stealth i never use it anyway (well its in the quick belt but i forget it's there :lol: ) besides forget about adding a new eye for now lets sort out other issues that have been around far longer
Give PE a bomb that does set_killself 1 and kills all in a 5 yards area.
PE will be the suicied bomber or scobabomber never the less.
Yay you got you own thing now :p
Clownst0pper
13-05-04, 00:34
damnit, for the second time this week i have to agree with clownie.
OMG im on a role *sheds a tear*
I find incredibly humorous that most peoples disagreement with the idea is based on the simple fact that PEs should get nothing special. I swear Im glad I dont play my PE much any more so I dont have to deal with this shit lol.
I dont understand why every one is getting their panties in a twist, personally I dont even think the eye is worth it. My PE wouldnt wear it. Its not worth gimping my self to see a stealther, especially since most of my enemies are monks and tanks. I just thought some PEs might enjoy the ability. If anything this idea only hurt me and my huggably soft pure tradeskill spy who uses an Obliterator.
Seriously though people. Any one who says PEs are JoaTs need to get out more or something. Just because their skill levels are evenly distributed means jack. My old PPU bartered/researched/poked/drove/repaired and still was effective in combat. And you call a PE a JoaT because he has even skill levels. :lol: Yah ok. Good luck with that.
I love all the sarcastic remarks too. WHY DONT YOU JUST GIVE PES A BIG STICK THAT CAN KILL ANY ONE AND CAN SPAWN ITEMS AND CAN MAKE BDOY RELEASED EARLIER EVEN. Wow you certainly proved that PEs dont deserve an anti-stealth eye. Way to totally avoid any discussion at all and just post something stupid that adds zero.
PEs are their own class, they are great fighters, stealth made them better fighters which if abused over powered them. My idea is focused on establising PEs as their own class and this would hardly over power them. Seriously the fact that class restrictions exist on ANYTHING disprove that PEs are JoaTs.
Too much for me to read it all while having a sneaky browse at work. If this has been suggested already, just take this post as me agreeing :)
How about a pistol3/rifle3 eye, with the ability to see stealth, but same requirements as stealth one?
Then the PE has to make the same sacrifices skill wise for it, but it will not add anything more to their skills than they will already have without it.
Remember its an implant. It will be little use if its not worth keeping in all the time. Pokers can be a pain in the ass to find.
Every class needs a role.
At the moment PE's don't have much of one at the moment.
Give that eye to the tanks ^^
Give that eye to the tanks ^^
Tanks already have a role.
Plus tanks aren't smart enough for that kind of role.
It even fits in with the PE class name. Private eyes track people down.
I started my PE for 2 reasons:
1. I wanted a fun solo PE char.
2. I wanted to try stealth and has 2 tradeskill spies already.
If the patches go through as planned on the test server, then #2 is gone.
With the populations as they are and the way people play at the moment it is getting harder and harder to do #1.
PE's need a role in the game rather than just running around killing straglers.
I dont understand why every one is getting their panties in a twistSimple answer- PEs have stealth removed, which many see as a NECESSARY balancing adjustment- and now demand a "new toy to make it fair."
If PEs want a new toy, JUST FREAKING ASK FOR ONE. But dont demand one cause stealth was removed. As others have pointed out, we cant always demand something new when we THINK a nerf took place.
So most people are upset cause of the "we deserve a toy" idea.
Can you imagine the aresenal of toys monks would have if they demanded (and got) a "new toy" everytime the monk was nerfed???
Now in regards to your toy suggestion, I think an 'always on' stealth breaker with no disadvantages is a bit much, but like the idea.
I agree with PEs getting something now that stealth has gone but not an anti-stealth eye because they all disagreed with its implementation when they werent about to lose stealth.
Just because the PE'S are getting the stealth nerf you want to try and nerf the spy's stealth as well so "NO".
I say give them something else mabye let PE's use those 40psi milkey ren bars that should compensate them enough. :lol: :lol:
hmmmm milkey ren bars
Simple answer- PEs have stealth removed, which many see as a NECESSARY balancing adjustment- and now demand a "new toy to make it fair."
If PEs want a new toy, JUST FREAKING ASK FOR ONE. But dont demand one cause stealth was removed. As others have pointed out, we cant always demand something new when we THINK a nerf took place.
So most people are upset cause of the "we deserve a toy" idea.
Can you imagine the aresenal of toys monks would have if they demanded (and got) a "new toy" everytime the monk was nerfed???
Now in regards to your toy suggestion, I think an 'always on' stealth breaker with no disadvantages is a bit much, but like the idea.
I don't think its a case of "we been nerfed, we deserve a toy".
Its a case of "you took our only toy, what do we play with now".
You can compare it with other classes but everyone has had something.
PE's can use the newer high level pistol if they drug or gimp setup, but there is nothing aimed specifically at PE's like every other class has had (ok in the case of tanks its just more guns, but thats coz they're stupid :) ).
I agree with you about the always on. Maybe 20 seconds then 10 off before you can use it again. That will give the PE a chance of still following, but the spy a fair chance to get away.
If a PE could get away with stealth 1 then a spy should be able to get away this way unless they are outclassed by the PE.
I don't think its a case of "we been nerfed, we deserve a toy".
Its a case of "you took our only toy, what do we play with now".Well, for many people the "taking of their only toy" equates to a nerf, so those two things you say above are basically the same thing.
Sheesh, it wasnt even a toy intended for a PE to use anyway. LOL
You can compare it with other classes but everyone has had something.
PE's can use the newer high level pistol if they drug or gimp setup, but there is nothing aimed specifically at PE's like every other class has had (ok in the case of tanks its just more guns, but thats coz they're stupid :) ).What do monks and tanks have? Just more weapons. That and power armor, which PEs have their own special PE just like everyone else.
So this ISNT about "all other classes." This is ONLY about Spies vs PEs.
And frankly, I dont see what this has to do with Spies. Spies are the weakest combat class out there, so thats why they have toys. Plus they are supposed to be SPIES. Holovests and stealth allow them to do just that.
If you think PEs need something to define their class, THEN I AGREE WITH THAT. Just ask for it- stop saying "because we lost stealth..."
That implies if you still had stealth, you would be a perfect "Private Eye" and never need anything else.
If you want something class specific, then ask for it. Stealth itself wasnt even class specific.
I am all for "something aimed just for PEs" but damn, stealth sure as hell doesnt fit that role, yet PEs seemed pretty attached to it.
So I am saying this is mostly just PEs whining that they want a new toy. If this was REALLY about "having something just for the PEs" they would have brought this up before the stealth removal (since stealth wasnt PE only or really even intended for the PE) and not just suddenly in response to it. Just my opinion. :)
I agree with you about the always on. Maybe 20 seconds then 10 off before you can use it again. That will give the PE a chance of still following, but the spy a fair chance to get away.
If a PE could get away with stealth 1 then a spy should be able to get away this way unless they are outclassed by the PE.A PE could get away with Stealth 1 cause he also had great defense to go along with it. Stealth was INTENDED to compensate for the crap defense a Spy has. End of story. Stealth + shelter + blessed deflector + Duranit 3/4 = uber defensive scheme, and thats why it was adjusted.
But I agree with the 20 seconds on then 10 off. Unless it cycles repeatedly- that would get annoying.
Like I said earlier, non-tech combat rifle/pistol Spies (meaning droners, lowtech weapon users, and tradeskillers) must spec TC just to use Stealth. Stealth only lasts a finite amount of time, it must be in the quickbelt, and you must activate it. If PEs are to counter that, it should be similar in nature.
Sheesh, it wasnt even a toy intended for a PE to use anyway. LOLWhat do monks and tanks have? Just more weapons. That and power armor, which PEs have their own special PE just like everyone else.
I agree with tanks but I guess thats what they were intended to do.
A PPU has true sight etc as their tools/toys.
An APU has the ability to de-buff.
Dribble Joy
13-05-04, 15:08
I do agree that tanks need a 'toy' or something to do other than damage deal, apus de-buff, spies ... spy.
PEs and tanks need something.
What that maybe is a different matter however.
(though I want jetpacks/flightsuits for PEs :p)
Clownst0pper
13-05-04, 15:10
Have i missed something, why on earth do PE's deserve jet packs?
Who thought of that shit idea?
Well what I dont see about Jetpacks is how that will give them the "unique role to play in op wars" that some PEs are clamoring for.
I mean what, jetting up over the wall and landing? I guess if they manage to blockade all exits with vehicles then that would be useful...
Also not sure what that has to do with being a "Private Eye." The suggested eye will at least make them more inline with their class name.
This is a very late reply and all. Technically I haven;t read the whole thread cause I'm a lazy SOB but I'm still gonna say what i think. kthx.
I think that every character in Neocron should have a roll to play py as recon, APU is PPU killer, PPU is god and so on. But i think what needs to be done is that the true sight range needs to be expanded and the effectiveness needs to be changed. Please make it so that truesight has a massive range say like 1/2 of an op or a 1/4 of it. Just the insedes, but change its effectiveness in the outer areas of the sanctum the truesight takes say 3-5 seconds to kick in, but more towards the heart of the sanctum it would kick in almost instantly. Cause you can;t tell me true sight is anygood at the moment. It is trash.
On a final note as you can probably tell, I want the anti stea;th roll to be left as PPU. But the PE still does need some sort of a roll to play. I think they could always be the clan bitch fetching them bottles of water at op wars when they are tired ;) :lol: :D
Clownst0pper
13-05-04, 15:33
Admitadly jet packs would be very cool, but they shouldnt be PE only, I mean, theyd need a "vehicle requirment" as to make it fair, the dex and int requirment would have to be obtainable by all classes except monks IMHO..
Tanks with Jetpacks *drools* :eek:
Nah, make jetpacks PE only. Then after they get them, and realize its a novelty that wont ever be useful in op wars or PvP (like the holovest the PEs claim is making the Spy uber in the toy department), we can tell them tough crap, you got your "toy" so have fun. ;)
Ozambabbaz
13-05-04, 16:05
I think i see the general tendency in this thread, that lead towards the Spy Req on the stealth tools.
The debating of class balance, must by nature contain the debating of individual equipment armament, since they're more often than not, class X required.
Now, with mindnumbing efficiency, there has been a dim-witted outspoken minority filling out most of any "class X" threads, constantly voicing the opinions of "user of X equipment is a pussy" or "i got killed again, why won't he stand still so i can target him" or just plainly "X sucks" (all of which i also contribute to a lack of forum moderation).
The single most biggest responsibility, however, is upon those who use the 5sec posting method. Instead of actually trying to see where the other posters come from, so to speak, it's easier type in widespread abbreviations or trying to be funny and achieve a sense of being "T3h M4n".
History shows that dictatoric regimes knew how to get a point across. Either by incessant propanganda, or by brute force.
The propaganda on this board, is generally just serving the same whines again and again, hinting Class X is X and the brute force being just flaming and not paying any attentions to arguments, purely answering posts with derogatory remarks.
As is unenevitable, people usually give up discussing these class balance issues, since the same forum-trolls swamp every one of these threads with vast amounts of indignity.
Is this how it ends?
@Jest, i like idea of an anti-stealth device, i shouldn't want "Class X" req on it or anything else. For drawbacks it could have the usual -MC and - HC?
If it was possible, a see-thru-Stealth Helmet, which when worns renders stealthed people normally targettable, but everyone else "stealthed"?
I think i see the general tendency in this thread, that lead towards the Spy Req on the stealth tools.
The debating of class balance, must by nature contain the debating of individual equipment armament, since they're more often than not, class X required.
Now, with mindnumbing efficiency, there has been a dim-witted outspoken minority filling out most of any "class X" threads, constantly voicing the opinions of "user of X equipment is a pussy" or "i got killed again, why won't he stand still so i can target him" or just plainly "X sucks" (all of which i also contribute to a lack of forum moderation).
The single most biggest responsibility, however, is upon those who use the 5sec posting method. Instead of actually trying to see where the other posters come from, so to speak, it's easier type in widespread abbreviations or trying to be funny and achieve a sense of being "T3h M4n".
History shows that dictatoric regimes knew how to get a point across. Either by incessant propanganda, or by brute force.
The propaganda on this board, is generally just serving the same whines again and again, hinting Class X is X and the brute force being just flaming and not paying any attentions to arguments, purely answering posts with derogatory remarks.
As is unenevitable, people usually give up discussing these class balance issues, since the same forum-trolls swamp every one of these threads with vast amounts of indignity.
Is this how it ends?
@Jest, i like idea of an anti-stealth device, i shouldn't want "Class X" req on it or anything else. For drawbacks it could have the usual -MC and - HC?
If it was possible, a see-thru-Stealth Helmet, which when worns renders stealthed people normally targettable, but everyone else "stealthed"?
wow man, that was really deep
:lol:
now translate that into english :lol:
Clownst0pper
13-05-04, 16:20
I think what hes trying to say is, we defend the class types we prefer most, and in a sense, those who favour PE's feel they have lost something greatly dear, which infact they have, but if KK are listening to the community as they are now, expect patch 202 to have something interesting for PE's
If you think PEs need something to define their class, THEN I AGREE WITH THAT. Just ask for it- stop saying "because we lost stealth..."
PEs are their own class, they are great fighters, stealth made them better fighters which if abused over powered them. My idea is focused on establising PEs as their own class I want PEs to have some thing unique because they have very little to do that. Compensation for losing stealth should happen, not because they didn't deserve stealth, but because this is the perfect time to do it. They have lost the reason that makes them overpowered. Before when they had stealth there would be no way to give them something unique.
I swear some of you people are really annoying me. Who gives a shit at the motivation look at the IDEA and the consequences of that idea. Don't be like OMG MONKS GOT NERFED AND THEY GOT NOTHING SO NOW PES WILL GET NOTHING. I play a damn PPU full time aight? And I had a hybrid that got nerfed aight? I have logged my PE once in the last 2 months to put his MoveOn back in that I was using to raise my monks dex. Monks are still overpowered and they always will be, so don't bring any of that monk nerf shit in this thread. This is about PEs. Monks deserved a nerf. PEs deserved to lose stealth. Now PEs deserve to give them something unique to their class.
Its obvious which are the PEs haters among you. You still live by the wishful thinking that PEs are JoaTs and should get nothing unique and yet youd fall on your sword before they take the class requirements off something. Let me go ahead and say this in super special all caps for every one to read. AS LONG AS CLASS REQS EXIST ON ANY SINGLE SOLITARY ITEM, THERE IS NO PLACE FOR A JOAT IN THIS GAME. Period. So dont give me that bull shit.
(Jetpacks would be cool instead. And plus Ive always wanted a *cough*levitation spell for my PPU *coughs*.)
I want a rare-tin-foil-hat-for-paranoid-PEs.
It would render us invisible to drones, provide no helmet armor, and perhaps a slight hack or even TC benefit (+5?).
Although I like the idea of a rare eye that would make us able to go hunt down stealthers at will.
If they added both then PEs could be real spy-hunters :D
I want a rare-tin-foil-hat-for-paranoid-PEs.
It would render us invisible to drones, provide no helmet armor, and perhaps a slight hack or even TC benefit (+5?).
Although I like the idea of a rare eye that would make us able to go hunt down stealthers at will.
If they added both then PEs could be real spy-hunters :D
horrible idea
and what is this invisible to droners BS lately?
droners already have no local list, no map, no ability to distinguish between LE and non LE players.....drone flash from hell when u get hit, no clue that ur being killed on ur body by an actual runner, when mobs hit me i see blood, but every time ive been found and killed there was no warning, just droning and then you are dead message.....this idea can kiss my arse is what it can do :rolleyes:
Promethius
13-05-04, 16:58
As a disclaimer I'd like to say I agree 100% with PEs not having stealth but I disagree 100% with not giving them any thing as a replacement.
Why should Pes get anything for losing stealth? Originally PE's recieved stealth without losing a skill or item. Now that they are losing stealth you want them to gain something else?
PE's never should have had stealth, So I feel they dont need this eye.
Edit: ALthough I disagree with the eye, it wouldn't hurt to bring something to PE's that they could call their own. (i.e. some sort of item that requires a medium of all skills to weild so its got a dex/int/psi/str reqs all on one item, therefor only PEs can use while no one else can.)
-Prom
I want PEs to have some thing unique because they have very little to do that. Compensation for losing stealth should happen, not because they didn't deserve stealth, but because this is the perfect time to do it. They have lost the reason that makes them overpowered. Before when they had stealth there would be no way to give them something unique.
I swear some of you people are really annoying me. Who gives a shit at the motivation look at the IDEA and the consequences of that idea. Don't be like OMG MONKS GOT NERFED AND THEY GOT NOTHING SO NOW PES WILL GET NOTHING. I play a damn PPU full time aight? And I had a hybrid that got nerfed aight? I have logged my PE once in the last 2 months to put his MoveOn back in that I was using to raise my monks dex. Monks are still overpowered and they always will be, so don't bring any of that monk nerf shit in this thread. This is about PEs. Monks deserved a nerf. PEs deserved to lose stealth. Now PEs deserve to give them something unique to their class.
Its obvious which are the PEs haters among you. You still live by the wishful thinking that PEs are JoaTs and should get nothing unique and yet youd fall on your sword before they take the class requirements off something. Let me go ahead and say this in super special all caps for every one to read. AS LONG AS CLASS REQS EXIST ON ANY SINGLE SOLITARY ITEM, THERE IS NO PLACE FOR A JOAT IN THIS GAME. Period. So dont give me that bull shit.
(Jetpacks would be cool instead. And plus Ive always wanted a *cough*levitation spell for my PPU *coughs*.)If now is the time, thats fine.
I am only saying the following:
Dont base it on "we were nerfed or had something taken away, so we need something in return." Thats a DANGEROUS precedent. Then everyone will expect that. ALSO a side effect of that idea is what happens if KK just gives you something- does that mean in "fairness" they need to take something away???
Not that YOU are saying this, but a lot of PEs see it as a balance thing. Right now we have X items, and if you take one away, you must add one to keep the total at X. You DONT want to set this up like that. Hell maybe PEs need three more items...
The other thing is that yes, I recognize PEs need something to make them PEs. Its just sad that not TOO many people discussed this until stealth was removed. Stealth was never a PE only thing or even intended for PEs... so the timing of this idea makes it LOOK like PEs are just pissed they cannot avoid death as easily now.
Stealth was never a PE only thing or even intended for PEs...
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't remember KK ever saying it wasn't intended for PE's. When it was introduced they could of made it class dependent, but they didn't.
They knew that a PE could use it and they didn't try to stop it. It was only after posts on here that things were adjusted to make it harder and durations shortened.
Like I said though I could be wrong. I don't read every thread :D
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't remember KK ever saying it wasn't intended for PE's. When it was introduced they could of made it class dependent, but they didn't.
They knew that a PE could use it and they didn't try to stop it. It was only after posts on here that things were adjusted to make it harder and durations shortened.
Like I said though I could be wrong. I don't read every thread :DWell so I guess then that KK figured that PEs needed the exact protection of Stealth 1 and only Stealth 1, and thats why they could use it? That PEs were so weak that they needed Stealth 1, but not weak enough to need Stealth 2 or higher? If it was intended for PEs, then they would have made it all accessible to PEs. Oblit was clearly Spy only, as was Stealth 3.
Nah, I think KK didnt realize that PEs would use stealth as they did, and they didnt think it through all of the way. I cant find it now, but I remember discussion coming from KK back when stealth was first talked about that it was to be primarily a spy tool to aid in the spy's primary methods of attack (i.e. methods where they were not in direct combat).
And KK has stopped it now, so its all back to how it should have been. No one should be able to wear Duranit 4 and use stealth and cast shelter at the same time.
And KK has stopped it now, so its all back to how it should have been. No one should be able to wear Duranit 4 and use stealth and cast shelter at the same time. Yah those damn overpowered melee PEs.
Yah those damn overpowered melee PEs.
leave teh melee PEs out of this :p
Yah those damn overpowered melee PEs.Okay, so you dont think thats a valid use for a PE. Thats fine. That doesnt make it any less viable because you dont agree with it. Are you saying that level of defense is acceptable and balanced in the game- Dur 4, Stealth, Shelter, Bless Def? Heck I was even assuming you didnt drug into a Marine. Toss that in the mix and it gets even better.
And fire up a skillmanager would ya?? My pistol PE will end up using a Judge/Libby, casting shelter and bless deflector, and wearing Duranit 2/Inq 2 and all medium belts. Thats still far better, for PvP, than anything a Spy can achieve. And thats with no drugs.
I honestly dont think stealth wouldve seemed so bad on a PE if PA had never been introduced....noone ever complained about a libby non PA PE in the past because they were just barely viable....but now u got PEs capping the highest TL guns, still taking lots of dmg, stealthing coming back 10 secs later full health....sheltered, blessed deflectored....just a long list of items....
i dunno, I personally think its for the best, what you have to tell yourself is, if you really relied on stealth that much to live, then whats the point of playing....if your really that much of a wet paper bag, then why try to fight at all?
it amazes me really....
Heretic Shadow
13-05-04, 17:54
i feel that also the joat class should not get any special compensation (my main is a pe) however with this sway away from being lower TL spys with better resists id like to be able to diversify more instead of being dex orientated. say less dex and a little less con and more psi etc. you get the drift. O_o :rolleyes:
Lupus has read this thread. Hopefully he ISNT thinking of giving anything to PR because they dont need anything else.
Okay, so you dont think thats a valid use for a PE. Thats fine. That doesnt make it any less viable because you dont agree with it. Are you saying that level of defense is acceptable and balanced in the game- Dur 4, Stealth, Shelter, Bless Def? Heck I was even assuming you didnt drug into a Marine. Toss that in the mix and it gets even better.
I personally think melee PEs are sexy, I love that swirly on a non-PA PE, makes me want to make one myself. I'm saying you cant say "no one should be able to wear Duranium 4, stealth, and shelter" when melee PEs are one of the least viable subclasses for a PE to choose. My point is that Duranium 4 is irrelelevant to this entire conversation and has absolutely nothing to do with a single thing. Im having trouble why you even brought it up.
And fire up a skillmanager would ya?? My pistol PE will end up using a Judge/Libby, casting shelter and bless deflector, and wearing Duranit 2/Inq 2 and all medium belts. Thats still far better, for PvP, than anything a Spy can achieve. And thats with no drugs.Omg really? Thats really amazing where in this entire post have I brought anything any where similiar to that topic at all? Because Id really love to get into the PE/spy argument yet again its almost as fun as talking about PEs as JoaTs.
I personally think melee PEs are sexy, I love that swirly on a non-PA PE, makes me want to make one myself. I'm saying you cant say "no one should be able to wear Duranium 4, stealth, and shelter" when melee PEs are one of the least viable subclasses for a PE to choose. My point is that Duranium 4 is irrelelevant to this entire conversation and has absolutely nothing to do with a single thing. Im having trouble why you even brought it up.
Omg really? Thats really amazing where in this entire post have I brought anything any where similiar to that topic at all? Because Id really love to get into the PE/spy argument yet again its almost as fun as talking about PEs as JoaTs.My bad Jest. When you said
Yah those damn overpowered melee PEs.I thought you were commenting on the power of PEs. My bad.
See, I wasnt commenting TO YOU about the power of PEs. That was to SynC. You had the need to hop in, so I responded to you. So dont act like I tried to push this idea on you and force you to respond. You wanna say that melee PEs arent overpowered, I will respond and show that they have awesome defense and dont need stealth. Which is what I did.
If you dont want to deal with this topic, STAY OUT of it then and maintain your course, which prior to your interjection about the melee PEs was about how PEs simply need to have their own identity in the game, which I totally agreed with.
nice idea but it should be implemented really. if u give everyone a anti cloak then wut is the point of having stealth in the game. my whole idea of having anti stealth has taking a uplink and using it to drop signals and decloaks the spy. since uplinks are the true waste of a op. and those ops give bounty possitions.
just a thought
even thou its not everyone getting a anti stealth it shouldnt be givien for the propose of killing stealth.
*i always pretend that stealth is the way that spys can hide in the shadows since everyone hav their gamma/brightness up so high* :)
if anyhting hav PE should get jetpacks. and its vary hard for them to shoot and use a jetpack so. for the few secs their in the air. its PE season :)
jetpacks would match that class/// reason thay hav the str to carry and int to use.
"if any eye would be put in. it would be infrared and removing labels such as factions and names. so u might lose a spy in a army of peeps giving the spy a chance at least"
QuantumDelta
13-05-04, 22:49
I absolutely refuse to read through most of this thread since on skim read it had degenerated into idiocy vs counter-idiocy and I am not going to spend time explaining things I've already explained that people could easily search and link, just because some morons don't understand how classes work.
Anyway to the idea (since I'm ignoring the off topic bull);
That looks familiar Jest :P
A Anti-Stealth/Stealth-Detecting Eye would be nice.
The Bonuses you presented are also fairly fair, since you lose 15x5 DEX Points whilst only gaining (on most TC Setups, baring in mind this implant is actually more ideal for Low-Tech Pistol/Rifle PEs), 7x3+3x2 points.
You go for damage with one eye or you go for stealth detection with the other, quite nicely thought out.
As for the dynamics of the toy itself;
You can see the stealther, but not shoot him or her.
If the above is satified it gets my full support ;p
As a disclaimer I'd like to say I agree 100% with PEs not having stealth but I disagree 100% with not giving them any thing as a replacement. There are plenty of other threads for that. I just wanted to suggest a replacement item. I mentioned it in one of the test server threads but no one replied to it. Buhu. :(
So here we go. Here is the item.
Anti-Stealth Eye
REQ: DEX 80, PEs only
INT+4
T-C+10
WEP+15
The PE would be able to see the stealthed spy. He wouldnt be able to get a lock on him but could see him just as if he wasnt stealthed.
Personally I think this would be a very cool replacement item. Thoughts?
way to overpowered, why does everyone keep wanting to nerf stealth, its a fact spies have feeble defense compared to the limits of other classes, so why nerf it? tradeskillers can use it well if they see a pk'er and wanto avoid but what use is it if someone has an anti-stealth eye and they spot the tradeskiller and kill him? if this was implemented it would make the stealth vertually useless, ecspecially when theres pe's in the fight or whatever, dont nerf stealth for spies because pe's dont end up getting it.
QuantumDelta
13-05-04, 22:58
It's not a fact, crazy, it's just that most people can't setup chars.
kthxbye.
It's not a fact, crazy, it's just that most people can't setup chars.
kthxbye.Ah, glad QD is back. Just what we have been missing... more "I know how to set up a char and no one else does" mystery and mysticism.
So QD, if "most" people, as you admit, dont know how to setup a character, do we make imps for the very few that can, or for the majority that cannot?
QuantumDelta
13-05-04, 23:41
Ah, glad QD is back. Just what we have been missing... more "I know how to set up a char and no one else does" mystery and mysticism.
Already explained some of it.
No Spies don't have superior defence (when you take into account HLT anyway) to a PE, but defence vs offence Yes (until DB is included which PEs rarely cast in duels and especially now even in gank situations spies'll just stealth until the DB is off etc).
So QD, if "most" people, as you admit, dont know how to setup a character, do we make imps for the very few that can, or for the majority that cannot?
Those that can.
Always.
How do you think hybrids were so fucked up?
KK designed hybrids based on a few basic tests and very little end to end consideration and what happened? -
From this we all know what was born, the unkillable, and comparably strongest character in the game by factors of probably uncountable numbers.
Simply because a shitload of newbs came in played the class in beta, couldn't do a damn thing with it.
In Retail people started capping these characters and suddenly discovered Gods among PEs and Spies and Tanks.
Untouchable Gods.
Simply because in old skool beta terms it hadn't been abused by any truly skilled player.
PvP in a game like NC should always, always, be balanced upon those with the most aptitude for the game, otherwise, those people will be the most likely to find ways to take advantage of this -- what will obviously be, high-end imbalance.
I've explained this before.
It's simple logic really, the lowest common denominator in this case is actually the highest (maximum potential) a player can get out of a character, and everything should be worked out from those points.
People who are "lesser" than these who know what they are doing, should be aiming to become as good, as these people who do, know what they are doing.
In this world of specialisation, there will always be "cookie cutter" setups, but even those, are not the best, admittedly, balancing things out on these players their personal capabilities, and then their character setups, will mean that specific setups and styles of play will be, the best way of playing that class, subclass, or whatever, however, if you don't do it this way, or don't remove specialisation to do it another way (infact I'd completely re-write the game in terms of pvp if I were allowed, but I'm trying to work within the box on this one cuz it's not my box to take apart), there will always be MASSIVE potential for PvP imbalance.
Scikar;
Just formatted/installed my XP 3000+new mobo, give me a couple days to get up to speed and i'll throw a few setups at you and some reasoning behind it for ya on msn.
Ah, glad QD is back. Just what we have been missing... more "I know how to set up a char and no one else does" mystery and mysticism.
So QD, if "most" people, as you admit, dont know how to setup a character, do we make imps for the very few that can, or for the majority that cannot?
The few, otherwise we go back to the old hybrids. :p
Though I'm sorta neutral on the spy setup issue atm, I'm waiting for QD to log onto MSN and talk to me about it. ;)
It's not a fact, crazy, it's just that most people can't setup chars.
kthxbye.
same thing :p
Once the top secret spy discussion takes place (hey, make sure your MSN is properly protected... dont want the SECRET SETUP getting out), by all means report back in.
And yes, a few hybrids screwed up KKs plans. I was there on the front line, as a pure PPU monk.
That was also back when people were still figuring out how things worked. Its a bit different know. Much more is known.
I guess it seems any time a lot of people seem to think something about a class (i.e., spies are weaker defensively than PEs) that all someone has to do is come along and say "you nib, you just dont know how to setup a Spy" and then suddenly all previous opinion is supposed to be reversed.
Consider me your pupil. Show me how a spy can have better defense than a PE. I will take the top secret recipe with me to my grave- as I have no intention of ever playing a combat spy anyway.
Promethius
14-05-04, 15:43
Rethinking on the anti-stealth eye. It seems that this eye atm is overpowered. If an eye ever had anti-stealth it should just have anti-stealth with -15 weapon lore and -10 TC. It shouldn't be all pros and no cons. So if the eye had jsut anti-stealth and drawbacks I can agree to its existance but other than that I don't see it working.
-Prom
Rethinking on the anti-stealth eye. It seems that this eye atm is overpowered. If an eye ever had anti-stealth it should just have anti-stealth with -15 weapon lore and -10 TC. It shouldn't be all pros and no cons. So if the eye had jsut anti-stealth and drawbacks I can agree to its existance but other than that I don't see it working.
-Prom
Combatting stealth should have the same drawbacks as using stealth.
You want to be able to follow for 10 seconds (anti-stealth eye 1), you need the same req's as stealth 1.
So PE with anti-stealth eye 1 can follow a stealth3 spy for 10 seconds, then it switches off for 10 seconds before he can use it again.
If they really wanted to spec for it a PE could setup for anti-stealth 2, but would have to sacrifice damage (as with stealth 2 PE's).
Anti-stealth 3 wouldn't be available (giving spies extra time on their stealth compared to anti-stealth). Maybe a rare with the same time as stealth 3, but that might be pushing it, and the requirements would have to be set carefully as stealth 2 is a struggle, a PE couldn't do stealth 3, unless maybe they drugged and gimped completely.
It would have to be switched on with a hotkey, or probably easier to just do it as a tool.
The problem at the moment is that unless you get a spy with slow reactions or a really crap setup, a PE will have trouble killing most spies before they stealth. With the removal of stealth for PE's, you can't sneak up on them.
Not saying that PE's should win all the time, but there does need to be a way to combat spies running as soon as they see red.
Although tanks and APU's can experience the same thing, their damage output is higher, so they have a better chance of killing a spy quickly.
Edit: Explained a bit more.
Thatd be pretty cool Sync. A tool with the same exact same tech reqs as the stealth tools and you are able to see the stealther for that amount of time. Id probably more likely use that than the anti-stealth eye.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.