View Full Version : Proposal - Remove UG use/GR when layer down
Most clans just camp the UG practically forcing the defending to zone down when low on health. I dislike when my clan uses the UG for safety purposes and I dislike when the enemy does it as well.
Op fights are missing something these days. And I think a large part of the problem is the underground. I miss the fights of the old days. Sniping people off roofs, luring enemies from the op, Soliko... nuff said. It seems like we are exremely limited these days. I've had some great fights even with the current UG rules, but they arent as good as they used to be. Rushing an op just isnt the same as zoning from the UG.
So here is my proposal:
New Underground System an ownership rule.
Hack 1 - Cannot GR to UG. Any attempts to GR to the op while the first hack is done will result in GRing to the normal GR.
Hack 2 - Cannot enter the UG at all. The op is in a state of flux. It has no controlling owner.
Hack 3 - Control the op.
Each hack would last 15 minutes. As in if you hacked the first layer and waited 15 minutes then it would go back to full control.
What effects this would have. Turrets would be really useful as a warning device. Stick a turret next to the hack room that required being destroyed and you would easily have a warning system to GR to the UG before the first layer was hacked.
We wouldn't have to UG camp. GRing UG is a great priviledge of owning the op but it just doesnt make sense to me that the owning clan should have 100% op functionality from an hacked op to moments before hack 3.
So what say you? Ideas? Comments? Flames?
enigma_b17
11-05-04, 23:37
its an interesting idea but em no, 90% of the time when ppl respond to an attack on an op is when the 1st Layer goes down, so that means all the opposing team has to do is send one hacker in the hack, and then the rest of the team can just camp the gr, giving the defending side no chance of actually defending the op before it can be hacked from them. Plus turrets would be pretty much useless if they stopped working after the first hack
Most clans just camp the UG practically forcing the defending to zone down when low on health. I dislike when my clan uses the UG for safety purposes and I dislike when the enemy does it as well.
Op fights are missing something these days. And I think a large part of the problem is the underground. I miss the fights of the old days. Sniping people off roofs, luring enemies from the op, Soliko... nuff said. It seems like we are exremely limited these days. I've had some great fights even with the current UG rules, but they arent as good as they used to be. Rushing an op just isnt the same as zoning from the UG.
So here is my proposal:
New Underground System an ownership rule.
Hack 1 - Cannot GR to UG. Any attempts to GR to the op while the first hack is done will result in GRing to the normal GR.
Hack 2 - Cannot enter the UG at all. The op is in a state of flux. It has no controlling owner.
Hack 3 - Control the op.
Each hack would last 15 minutes. As in if you hacked the first layer and waited 15 minutes then it would go back to full control.
What effects this would have. Turrets would be really useful as a warning device. Stick a turret next to the hack room that required being destroyed and you would easily have a warning system to GR to the UG before the first layer was hacked.
We wouldn't have to UG camp. GRing UG is a great priviledge of owning the op but it just doesnt make sense to me that the owning clan should have 100% op functionality from an hacked op to moments before hack 3.
So what say you? Ideas? Comments? Flames?
wasnt gring under was the who propose of trying to defend ur base and thats y thay locked UG so u cant camp while thay gr in.
so i dont think this idea will fly. but hey atleast ur trying :)
wut i would like is UG is the controll room and hacking throu doors. and at the last door is were thay gr down as a clan owners do. after 2 doors theirs the last door to break throu for the com room and a army could be waiting. :)
unless thay would all security doors to lets u to the com room. now if ur a infrtrating spy more power to u :)
and putting doors infront of turrents would stop these LE nubs from killing them since thay cant hack throu layers. to get in a room of turrents :)
Unfortunately under the current system it discourages casual op warfare. With my clan, I could care less about the actual op. Most of the time I just want a fight. And yet several times an enemy clan will come and just keep using the UG again and again and again until they win. Its taking everything I hate about Pepper Park 1 fights and bringing it to op wars. Im sick of it tbh.
The only other option I have is to hack the op completely when often enough we dont really want the op at all.
And I never proposed turrets to stop working after hack 1. ;)
Unfortunately under the current system it discourages casual op warfare. With my clan, I could care less about the actual op. Most of the time I just want a fight. And yet several times an enemy clan will come and just keep using the UG again and again and again until they win. Its taking everything I hate about Pepper Park 1 fights and bringing it to op wars. Im sick of it tbh.
The only other option I have is to hack the op completely when often enough we dont really want the op at all.
And I never proposed turrets to stop working after hack 1. ;)
u just want to start something. but starting something with a op is totally selfish. ops are for clan onwer ships really and should be hard to take over.
u just want a big balttle. but taking it to a op and chnaging it to ur benefit how would it make a good pvp game if u hav to wait 30 mins for the other guys to walk across to the op ur trying to attract.
now ur a guy that wants a non safezone game. and if u dont think u are u just dont know it :)
enigma_b17
12-05-04, 00:00
"And I never proposed turrets to stop working after hack 1."
erm
"Hack 2 - Cannot enter the UG at all. The op is in a state of flux. It has no controlling owner"
well if the op has no owner how will the turrets know who to shoot at ?
"And I never proposed turrets to stop working after hack 1."
erm
"Hack 2 - Cannot enter the UG at all. The op is in a state of flux. It has no controlling owner"
well if the op has no owner how will the turrets know who to shoot at ?
who said u did
enigma_b17
12-05-04, 00:16
"who said u did"
well in a way i did, as i said if the op isnt under any1s control how do they know who to shoot at :P
Well I still like the idea but its obvious people will never give up their instant UG GRing. Its easily done people. I tell my clan to never GR to the UG of an attacked op and yet some how we still get there in plenty of time before they hack the op.
I think I just need to give up the idea of a casual fight and instead hack the op completely.
Well I still like the idea but its obvious people will never give up their instant UG GRing. Its easily done people. I tell my clan to never GR to the UG of an attacked op and yet some how we still get there in plenty of time before they hack the op.
I think I just need to give up the idea of a casual fight and instead hack the op completely.
thats the way. u show them whos boss and stop messing around. now if u want to screw someone go to MB or TG. camp out side their base sooner or later u will see TG or mB coming out in waves :). trust me if ur goin aginst todays TG u only need a max of 3 peeps 1 ppu 1 bakup man and ur self. and u can clear it out. no skill sorry.
MB now these guys hav come alongway. so u better take more men. before i used to laugh at them but now their a good rival. thay never gave up.
"who said u did"
well in a way i did, as i said if the op isnt under any1s control how do they know who to shoot at :P
hehe shame. starting something that was on ur bak :) liek thay protester that said bad names on ur car :p and called it racsim and blamed it on the popblic of these acts. when she did it :)
u guys are crazy these days :)
The underground is basically being used as a zoning exploit to a safe zone, rather like people often do on the PP border. This shouldn't be able to happen in an Op war.
Op wars WERE far better before the GRing to underground rule was added. You would never GR to a hacked Op in those cases, you would gather your allies and run from the nearest open GR, which would result in longer, more fun fights rather than just trying to kill everyone as you zone in and out of the underground.
I say change the rules back to what they were.
Athon Solo
This idea sucks. The GR to the UG is a great thing.
Basically whats going to happen is that you have a 20 player force taking the op and the 5 who can defend it will get hammered since they cant use the UG they own.
Throw this out the window. The gr to the gene rep with SI when trying to defend your op is stupid. You already need cst 100 (next patch) to drop a gat, why the hell should we have to defend with SI and outside the op we own anyway,
oh yea how about the turrets not working after first hack.. now theres a even worse idea since turrets still fall through the ground, whats that mean? No defense for the opposing force. Easy first layer hack.
Leave it alone, if it aint broke, dont fix it.
Hack 1: Controlling clan can no longer re-enter the UG from outside, but they can still GR in.
Hack 2: Controlling clan can no longer GR in to UG,, UG entrance is open to all.
Hack 3: Control the op.
This could be a bit more simple just open the underground after the second hack. That way you remove the "safe zone" pepper park bullshit. Maybe increase the time between hacks, I mean like 5 min between hacks. The guys that own the OP get a chance to gather and respond. That would be a tense 5 min.
Dirk_Gently
12-05-04, 19:03
I'd prefer GR's all opened and no SI for GR's in warzones (unless you die).
Then both sides can pile in as many people as they want.
This idea sucks. The GR to the UG is a great thing.
Basically whats going to happen is that you have a 20 player force taking the op and the 5 who can defend it will get hammered since they cant use the UG they own.
Throw this out the window. The gr to the gene rep with SI when trying to defend your op is stupid. You already need cst 100 (next patch) to drop a gat, why the hell should we have to defend with SI and outside the op we own anyway,
oh yea how about the turrets not working after first hack.. now theres a even worse idea since turrets still fall through the ground, whats that mean? No defense for the opposing force. Easy first layer hack.
Leave it alone, if it aint broke, dont fix it.
No. What's going to happen is that Op wars are going to go back to how they used to be, minus ninja hacking. Fights will be simpler. Instead of being holed up underground the 'defenders' will be attacking from outside the op, while the 'attackers' will be holed up inside the op, making it easier for the defenders to get reinforcements and harder for the attackers. The defenders will have the upper hand as they clear the op from the outside in, rather than trying to break out of the underground, which is generally being continuously barrelled.
And I believe that hack times should be increased tho I believe that this needs to be done carefully, severely tested on test server. My current thinking is that a reboot time (time from 1 hack is completed to the terminal allows you to hack again) of 1 minute would be about right. Don't forget that a single level may take 2 or 3 tries before it's hacked, and the terminal has to reboot each time. Each hack takes 20-30 seconds, so that's a minimum of 4 minutes to hack an op assuming all hackers successfully complete every hack.
Athon Solo
Why not notify the owning clan on a failed hack as well as a succesful one? Would that make ninja hacks less likely?
nah, with the currently instability of zoning coming up from the ug sucks... countless times ive tried to zone up from the ug, fataled, relogged, and found myself dead.
and to strengthen the arguement, when lag is also and issue and its takes you several seconds to become "live" again you have already taken damage and you at a disadvantage, especially now you can no longer heal before zoning...
Clownst0pper
12-05-04, 19:28
After the second hack, u should no longer be able to GR into the UG.
If u cant gr into the UG after the first layer is down, WTF u going to do about ninja hacking, U expect EVERYONE to ALWAYS be in the UG of EVERY op they own?
How silly.
Personally I like how it is now, We own the OP, the UG is our safe haven :rolleyes:
Hmmm btw good points have been made so far. Most of the ideas I suggest are done so to get some feedback from the community, mainly just a brainstorming thread.
What if in addition to the proposed changes it would also give a warning when a hack has started.
"Security breached, intruder in internal systems has been detected." Or some sort of goodness like that.
Ill be honest as much as I hate the current system, the one thing it does have is that it favors the defender more than the old system. Im trying to find a balance between giving the defender the advantage and balancing the ops but it seems pretty hard to do so far.
if you did this, you should be allowed to gr in, but NOT be able to go back down to the UG once you zone up. That will prevent zone whoring.
if you did this, you should be allowed to gr in, but NOT be able to go back down to the UG once you zone up. That will prevent zone whoring.
The problem with solutions like this is what are you going to do when there is no war on, for example, someone is constructing at their op and reading the forums, or generally using the citycom (doing missions perhaps). They want to get to the gogo and back to the UG to get back to the citycom.
AFAIK there is no system in the NC code for 'rules that only apply during op wars' - and there would always be debate howl ong such rules should remain anyway.
Also, in this case, what about if you have regained control of the op and want to change security?
Athon Solo
"
AFAIK there is no system in the NC code for 'rules that only apply during op wars' - and there would always be debate howl ong such rules should remain anyway."
Besides having penutbutter in my ears. I think the first hack would be the start of an OP war and the death of all little birds that cry at me in my sleep the end.
Shadow Dancer
13-05-04, 01:20
I like the idea. Maybe make it second hack.
i dont agree to not being able to grep to ug if u hack layer one cuz peops dont come til one layer is hacked
but i do think after layer 2 u should not be able to zone into ug is a good idea
I think Ug's should be removed I think when your GR to your OP you go to the GR and have no SI. This will prevent zoning over and over so the person with the OP doesnt always have a second chance. Any thoughts?
Hack 1: Controlling clan can no longer re-enter the UG from outside, but they can still GR in.
Hack 2: Controlling clan can no longer GR in to UG,, UG entrance is open to all.
Hack 3: Control the op.
Agreed. After first hack the owning clan should still be able to GR in - turrets aren't enough of an early warning system since it's even easier to just get an APU and kill the the turret from around a corner than it is to ninja hack the OP itself. The owning clan also shouldn't be able to return to UG after the first hack however.
The only problem is, the UG is still usually camped, i.e. a clan taking an OP will camp the UG while the hackers hack the term. The result is, zoning up from the UG leaves you antibuffed, parashocked and damage boosted before you can even sync in.
I think the UG should have a built in defense system, which deals some heavy damage to enemies in the vicinity and can be weakened by damage but not actually destroyed, but is disabled after the second hack. This gives the owning clan the ability to actually move into and fight for the OP under attack.
Hack 1: Controlling clan can no longer re-enter the UG from outside, but they can still GR in.
Hack 2: Controlling clan can no longer GR in to UG,, UG entrance is open to all.
Hack 3: Control the op. I must've missed this when it was first posted thats a really good system and is about what I was looking for. This would be the perfect system imo. Though for hack 2 I might just choose one or the other, not both.
Shadow Dancer
13-05-04, 22:53
I like the system too, but i'm not too sure about not letting the clan GR in to the UG after hack 2.
The problem is, you don't know you're being attacked till the first hack. Then you just have what 2 minutes?(if the hacker is good), until you can gather everyone and GR in.
Maybe if you were alerted when someone STARTS hacking, then it could work. Like "ALERT: Intruder detected inside matrix" or some BS like that.
{MD}GeistDamnit
14-05-04, 01:12
Op's should be like a Tribes 2 base, or a UT2004 ONS base. The way they are now just sucks. Having to raid someones op should feel as exciting and fun as a cave run with a good party. As it is now the design of op's is slapped together. If they made op's more of a "run" then it would solve a lot of problems and be a lot more fun. ;)
oh wow, so we remove gring to ugs and everyone goes to camping the gen reps while layer 1 is hacked? Great idea.
oh wow, so we remove gring to ugs and everyone goes to camping the gen reps while layer 1 is hacked? Great idea.
No. What would happen is that you would never dream of GRing to an op under attack. You'd gather your forces at the nearest open GR (usually within 3 sectors) and run to the op. Op fights never consisted of combatting enemies as they zoned in and out of the underground. Op fights were actually about by winning by skill (Yes, you could zerg, but you can also do so now, so there's no difference there - whether you did so or not was a matter of honour and not wanting to be called lame).
We (Rangers) used to have great op fights against clans like UTS - there'd be like 7 of us against 3 of them - and we new before we started out that our chances of success would be slim, but it was about the FUN of the op fight. Hell, if we killed Xantor (on his PE) we would consider it a good day.
Athon Solo
I know what your point is with this.
I know that you mean well.
But itīs not the way to deal with it.
Just open up UG again.
They can zone in and out of UG..
allow us to go in there after them.
oh wow, so we remove gring to ugs and everyone goes to camping the gen reps while layer 1 is hacked? Great idea. Omg you mean like what we did for over a year and a half of retail game play? Onoz!
I think ultimately I like.
Hack 1: Clan can GR to UG but not enter it from the outside
Hack 2: Clan can't GR to UG or enter it.
Hack 3: Own.
Thats a perfect solution I think to my problems with the current system.
What I really would like to have is some kind of status information about an OP. e.g. every 3-10 minutes a warning about already hacked layers on OPs on clan-chat and a status review within the citycom.
As I'm writing this I'm reminded of some really good ideas about placeable turret-cameras and stuff that lie somewhere withing the brainport.
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