View Full Version : The Ravager Context
Clownst0pper
05-05-04, 14:29
Now, The newest craze for tanks, is no longer the devourer, but the Ravager, after the recent patch, the Ravager damage was boosted considerably.
As a TL 100 rare plasma wave, this is understandable, However, It now not only does more dmg than a CS, but players are completely miss using its context.
It is designed for distance fighting, taking people out on hills, or turrets, FROM A DISTANCE.
Why is it then, that 99.9% of tanks now use it in close quarter duels, OH wait thats right, because its dmg is stupidly higher than its CS counter part.
Its like me taking a moonstriker, and using it in duels, Its not possible, so Why should it be possible to duel in close range, with a distance weapon?
Its beyond me, abusing the weapons context is really starting to piss me off :mad:
Now, The newest craze for tanks, is no longer the devourer, but the Ravager, after the recent patch, the Ravager damage was boosted considerably.
As a TL 100 rare plasma wave, this is understandable, However, It now not only does more dmg than a CS, but players are completely miss using its context.
It is designed for distance fighting, taking people out on hills, or turrets, FROM A DISTANCE.
Why is it then, that 99.9% of tanks now use it in close quarter duels, OH wait thats right, because its dmg is stupidly higher than its CS counter part.
Its like me taking a moonstriker, and using it in duels, Its not possible, so Why should it be possible to duel in close range, with a distance weapon?
Its beyond me, abusing the weapons context is really starting to piss me off :mad:Explain what about it means it cant be used close up? When levelling my tank I used a plasma wave at whatever range I felt like.
Just because it CAN reach out and touch someone, that doesnt mean that is the ONLY role it plays.
Clearly- if tanks are using it close up there is no problem with using it close up.
You can use a Moonstriker in duels. If you win with it, then hell, whats the problem?
Clownst0pper
05-05-04, 14:33
The problem is, the plasma wave is designed for distance fighting, that is its role.
Why then should it be AS effective at distance as it is in close range combat?
Not only that, but as a TL 100 item, it dmg is at least half over the Cursed Soul.
It completely defeats the object of a CS being in the game when the ravager can be abused in such a way.
you just gotta dodge it..
itīs damage is a little higher than the cs..
but then tell me.... what would you rather. ?
have a gun that shoots slow, and does a lot of dmg
or
have a gun that shoots fast, and does pretty good dmg..
I donīt have a Ravager, and yes when I borrow one, I can see itīs not that bad to aim with..
But
CS > RAV > SPEEDY > TPC > DEV
In my book.
The problem is, the plasma wave is designed for distance fighting, that is its role.
Why then should it be AS effective at distance as it is in close range combat?
Not only that, but as a TL 100 item, it dmg is at least half over the Cursed Soul.
It completely defeats the object of a CS being in the game when the ravager can be abused in such a way.
I dont disagree with the dmg portion, however there are no rules to how ones supposed to use their weapon.....because it has slightly better range than the CS its all the sudden now a sniper cannon? :rolleyes:
edit: since its being addressed couldnt the same apply to riflers who use their PE or disruptor, or first love in close quarters battle......wheres the thread on that?
Heh... trust me to be a bugger.
I actually don;t like the range on the ravager :)
shoulda been clearer: i would prefer it was a short range weapon
Clownst0pper
05-05-04, 14:40
On an artifact ravager the range is great, no doubt, at least Healing Light standard.
In terms of its dmg, get hit and a CS, and then a Ravager, the ravager will out dmg the CS, does on all my chars.
And it aims easier.
Dribble Joy
05-05-04, 14:43
The rav was intended as a long range weapon for tanks, not as powerfull as the CS, but capable of hitting targets as distances the CS could never hope to.
However as it now has better aiming, better dmg than the CS, it is somewhat out of place.
With long range fighting still restricted by the same issues that affect rifles, it's 'true role' is no open as such atm.
As a tl 100 weapon it should not out dmg the CS anyway, so on that point alone it needs a tweak.
Clownst0pper
05-05-04, 14:44
The rav was intended as a long range weapon for tanks, not as powerfull as the CS, but capable of hitting targets as distances the CS could never hope to.
However as it now has better aiming, better dmg than the CS, it is somewhat out of place.
With long range fighting still restricted by the same issues that affect rifles, it's 'true role' is no open as such atm.
As a tl 100 weapon it should not out dmg the CS anyway, so on that point alone it needs a tweak.
Thankyou <3
On an artifact ravager the range is great, no doubt, at least Healing Light standard.
In terms of its dmg, get hit and a CS, and then a Ravager, the ravager will out dmg the CS, does on all my chars.
And it aims easier.
couldnt it just be possible that considering its lower TL that its just easier to cap aiming on it? ever think of that one? i dont want to sound like a dick here but I just dont see where this is all coming from, plenty of weapons not just HC have lower TL weapons that may do slightly better dmg.....
heres what I think, I think you are so much of an individual and that you have a ravager, which may or may not have been a favorite weapon of yours, and like ezza felt violated when people made a switch to that particular weapon/class...so u put it away got out your CS again only to find out that its not competing too well with the rav....so instead of getting the odds evened out and pulling out the rav again, you come here to complain about rav damage, if I cant have it to myself noone can....of course I could be totally way off base here, in which case i do apologize, but what else could have seriously provoked a thread in this nature?
Dribble Joy
05-05-04, 14:50
couldnt it just be possible that considering its lower TL that its just easier to cap aiming on it?
It aims like a raygun weapon.
It will hit all shots with a half closed recticle.
At a distance.
Clownst0pper
05-05-04, 14:51
couldnt it just be possible that considering its lower TL that its just easier to cap aiming on it? ever think of that one? i dont want to sound like a dick here but I just dont see where this is all coming from, plenty of weapons not just HC have lower TL weapons that may do slightly better dmg.....
heres what I think, I think you are so much of an individual and that you have a ravager, which may or may not have been a favorite weapon of yours, and like ezza felt violated when people made a switch to that particular weapon/class...so u put it away got out your CS again only to find out that its not competing too well with the rav....so instead of getting the odds evened out and pulling out the rav again, you come here to complain about rav damage, if I cant have it to myself noone can....of course I could be totally way off base here, in which case i do apologize, but what else could have seriously provoked a thread in this nature?
I have no H-C tank, only a melee one, The only provocation to make this thread, is seeing ravagers chew down people, in duels, and close range, when a CS SHOULD do the job better.
Executioner is Fusion, meaning it does bonus damage at longer range, making the pistols intended use for mid range use, yet every other PE and pistol spy uses the executioner at point blank range as it has great ROF and high damage, Why does nobody moan about the executioner when 80% of PEs and pistol spies use it, yet theres like 20 tanks across all servers that use a ravager and people moan about the ravager.
Sort out the executioner at the same time as the ravager :)
Dribble Joy
05-05-04, 14:53
ONOZ!! watch out the anti whiners are after you now!!!!
I have no H-C tank, only a melee one, The only provocation to make this thread, is seeing ravagers chew down people, in duels, and close range, when a CS SHOULD do the job better.
yea totally agree, CS should do more dmg, Im just saying it shouldnt be labeled as a sniper weapon for tanks cause Ive shot one and truth be told once you get so far out its nigh impossible to hit people anyways unless u got a scope of sorts....Im sure it will get sorted, look at the dev.....
yea totally agree, CS should do more dmg, Im just saying it shouldnt be labeled as a sniper weapon for tanks cause Ive shot one and truth be told once you get so far out its nigh impossible to hit people anyways unless u got a scope of sorts....Im sure it will get sorted, look at the dev.....
Ohh ffs !!
CS does not need a boost, and it doesnīt need a nerf !!
CS is just fine.. it just has to have itīs current AIM changed to 267 (without boosting aim that is)
So tanks can get decent ranks.
DEV has always been sucky
RAVAGER has itīs advantage in range and damage, but has slow as fuck rate of fire.
I am not saying it doesnt need to be adjusted, but the "abusing the context" argument is just plain SILLY at best.
If you got beat by a ravager, and you think its overpowered, just say so. Trying to pass this off as context abuse doesnt work.
If anything- you should be glad, ESPECIALLY AS A MELEE TANK, that they were even WILLING to use a ravager on you close up. Had they gotten ahold of you at range, you wouldnt even have a chance to fight back. :rolleyes:
And no, it doesnt hit all shots at half reticle at distance.
if indeed it is meant to be a distance weapon maybe it should be like the fusion rifle and the closer the target is the less damage is done
Dribble Joy
05-05-04, 15:00
By distance I meant the edge of duel range, sorry :p.
I did exagerate a bit, but I was pointing out the difference in aim style from the CS.
the usual balancing factors with range weapons are that they take longer to aim (fully close reticule) and you move more slowly with them drawn. for example, the difference between using a rifle and a pistol.
perhaps that should be applied to the rav too.
if indeed it is meant to be a distance weapon maybe it should be like the fusion rifle and the closer the target is the less damage is doneAh, now THAT would make this "context abuse" idea make sense... but then again that would also stop this argument from happening in the first place. :cool:
so if i don't kneel right in front of a grim chaser with my beam of hell spy, i am misusing the BoH? i mean pistols are close combat guns, right :D
Clownst0pper
05-05-04, 15:12
The BOH u can snipe a zone away, that gun is also stupid.
The idea that executioner is fusion designed for distance, then put into a pistol is also stupid.
These are all guns which needs tweaking, I just chose the ravager to be the first :)
Dribble Joy
05-05-04, 15:13
Exec should be tl120, a real spy weapon, but that's another issue.
Original monk
05-05-04, 15:15
Its like me taking a moonstriker, and using it in duels, Its not possible, so Why should it be possible to duel in close range, with a distance weapon?
i clearly see youre point and i understand it ... but at the above thing i yust wanted to say that i use my malediction regularly to duel ... well it aint really duelling, its more like trying to kill a group of people at a time but i also yust go stand right in there face and blast like hell... probably not where the cannon is designed for :/
same as i use barrels
i yust like to attack groups instead of those nibish 1vs1 fights lol, they get backup anyway, so why dont try to waste em all at once :)
and saying that its not designed for upclose but only for distance ... a kamichip is designed for midlevel players ... still i think only 10% of the people having a kami uses em to level up :/
same as a ray of last hope or executioner isnt really designed for PE's, and still i see em drugging up and using it anyway ... not that it bothers me or anything .. but for example the executioner in particular isnt really a PE weapon i think ... but if youre prepared to drug up and adyust youre setup to one .. why not ?
let em use there ravagers all they like (they gonna get asswooped anyway, daamn nibs :P )
appologize me if im late and some people allready gave some other examples, i been away fo a sec before actually posting the message itself :)
I had a laserpointed rav on a HC tank on venus, didnt cap aim, but capped dmg.
I found it almost useless in short range, even CS tanks could move fast enough to disrupt the aiming.
Using at mid-long range I found it lovely though.
Just my 0.02
tank with standard imps and skills gets rav aim to 248% iirc. plus laserpointer :) it definately aims smooth in close combat.
DigestiveBiscui
05-05-04, 15:59
This is like saying
'The pain easer can be used from distance - SO NEVER USE IT IN DUELS EVER EVER BECAUSE IT'S A DISTANCE WEAPON!'
@Hinch...
Executioner does the same Damage at any range.
Only the rifles have a range bonus.
------
Ravager is a bitch because if you don't have one your screwed by it's range :P when your tank v tank. I like the fact there is a choice in heavy weapons atm tho :)
Clownst0pper
05-05-04, 16:03
Biscuit, the Pain easer is a mid to close range weapon, which fires bullets as a projectile, the Ravager is a Medium to long, and is a beam weapon, in theory, it should be unsuitable for close range.
Sadly on this game, beam weapons can go round corners O_o
Biscuit, the Pain easer is a mid to close range weapon, which fires bullets as a projectile, the Ravager is a Medium to long, and is a beam weapon, in theory, it should be unsuitable for close range.
Sadly on this game, beam weapons can go round corners O_o???? Pain Easer is mid to close range, yet Ravager is medium to long?
What are you basing that on?
The Pain Easer can be used to taking down just about any mob at a range where the mob cannot attack you.
Fact is both guns can be used at all ranges.
Can you at least explain why you are hung up on the use of the Ravager? Is it because of what is said in the description of the Ravager or what?
Biscuit, the Pain easer is a mid to close range weapon, which fires bullets as a projectile, the Ravager is a Medium to long, and is a beam weapon, in theory, it should be unsuitable for close range.
Sadly on this game, beam weapons can go round corners O_o
Im thinking he got owned big time by a tank with skills and just cant understand why.
The Rav has about the same damage as a cs per shot with a shitty ROF so....
STFU leave it alone
Clownst0pper
05-05-04, 17:38
Im thinking he got owned big time by a tank with skills and just cant understand why.
The Rav has about the same damage as a cs per shot with a shitty ROF so....
STFU leave it alone
Why are u making assumptions?
I honestly think its an overpowered weapon, All these people saying it isnt, is tanks who use it, who claimed the devourer didnt need nerfing, or the CS didnt need nerfing after its accidental boost.
Yeah keep being blind to game mechanics and unbalances just so it suits you.
darknessfairy
05-05-04, 17:46
ravager has a tiny clip (15) and a slow rate of fire. You can only get off 5 bursts before having to reload(the reload time on it sux to). That is enough of a disadvantage imo. leave the dmg alone
solution! give the rav a range bonus =) so the closer the weaker and the further the more powerfull
cruiser!
Eledhbrant
05-05-04, 18:07
ravager has a tiny clip (15) and a slow rate of fire. You can only get off 5 bursts before having to reload(the reload time on it sux to). That is enough of a disadvantage imo. leave the dmg alone
5 bursts before reload is the same as a CS actually.
Reload time is relative to your ROF on the gun (until you can fire again) and it isnt that slow.
I have dueled with both rav and CS
the rav hurts more and KILLS FASTER because the damage is not reduced as the target loses hp, just like raygun weapons.
Personally I dont use my ravager because I think the sound of it lacks "oomph", ever watched a rav duel? 2 tanks, its so quiet. I dont like using the gun so i don't, even if it is overpowered.
HatchetRyda
05-05-04, 18:10
When para is removed, Ravager should have it damaged lower. For, now stop your crying. Alright, leave us damn tanks alone.. All, you PPUs use para, so we finally get a really nice gun, oh lets boohoo about it.
Eledhbrant
05-05-04, 18:14
parashock is not the topic here, so stfu and take it to a para thread.
Clownst0pper
05-05-04, 18:14
When para is removed, Ravager should have it damaged lower. For, now stop your crying. Alright, leave us damn tanks alone.. All, you PPUs use para, so we finally get a really nice gun, oh lets boohoo about it.
What makes U think I even have a PPU to holy para your ass?
Dont bring the stupid para argument into this thread, theres others for it. Piss off.
As a tl 100 rare plasma wave, it does do more dmg than a CS, and like eledhbrant says it really isnt that slow.
Id rather see its tl increased to tl 110, then it would be acceptable
I said I *used* a ravager on a tank(my brothers), I dont nor have ever had a ravager tank.
I've fought against a rav tank as a pistol spy, did fairly well considering, probably better then against a CS tank.
tbh I dont think the ravager is that much stronger than the CS
I mainly use it for picking out the spies and pe's going berserk style running
Liebestoter
05-05-04, 20:02
"Abusing the weapon's context?"
So let me get this straight, let's say I have a shotgun, and we all know shotguns tear stuff up at close range. If I blow someone away from a good distance with said shotgun, am I "abusing the weapon's context" or am I just that damn good? Ask yourself that.
The Ravager kinda reminds me of the railgun from Q2/3. Heh. Don't mess with it, it's fine as it is.
'Damage' in PvP is determined not only by the damage per shot, but the damage output per unit of time. In this respect, CS > Rav. I think you need to learn a little bit more about the weapons before you start claiming Rav is more powerful than a CS.
Let me put it this way : I routinely beat Ravager toting Tanks using my CS, simply because I have higher damage output. I have used Ravager before, and I don't really mind it, but it simply can't match the CS for damage. If you want proof of this, test with a PPU, see how many CSs he can outheal, compared to how many Ravs. For that reason, I take CS.
The only time I ever use Rav is when I know I'm going to be fighting stealth PEs, because I can snipe them as they heal out of range of local list, and because per shot it deals a little more, allowing me to kill them with a single shot from 50 HP or so (at that point, CS usually takes 2 bursts to finish, so PE stealths after the first one. He thinks he's also safe from Rav at that point, but he's not and Rav kills him). Even then, there are times when I prefer the CS against stealthers (notably in enclosed areas where it's much easier to follow a stealther and shoot him while he's stealthed, Rav can't damage stealthed runners, unlike CS).
Ravager is little different to BlackSun, RoLH, RoG, any other beam weapon. Vett was flamed for saying BlackSun is overpowered, but the same people are using his argument with Ravager switched in. Fact is, they have good aim, but anyone who has become proficient with a burst weapon knows that CS is far superior.
On the range and effectiveness issue, hinch makes an excellent point (bet ya never thought you'd hear me say that eh?). If that's your justification for nerfing Rav then it also applies to Executioner. On the "PE is for closer range than Rav" issue, a quick glance at the range caps on those weapons says it all.
lame i take a few days off from forum and i come back to this bullshit, you fuckers all got the dev nerfed, and ya it did need it, but theres no need to get the ravager nerfed as well.
i mean fuck i got killed by a executioner PE other day so what i aint here whining.
by the same score i killed amelee tank and a PE with my Rav last night within in minutes of my return, yet they aint whining, the melee tank even came back to challange me(with his PPU :lol: )
Why are u making assumptions?
I honestly think its an overpowered weapon, All these people saying it isnt, is tanks who use it, who claimed the devourer didnt need nerfing, or the CS didnt need nerfing after its accidental boost.
Yeah keep being blind to game mechanics and unbalances just so it suits you.
Ok just for full honesty i have these char.
Judge PE
PPU PSI 114
115 str Tank HC with CS and Rav my rav is dmg 114 120 all other stats.
Judge Constructor spy with zero wep lore over 215 cst
Former Droner Research SPY loming to full res/repair/somthing else?
APU monk still leveling PSI 70ish(monk-0-cron in full gogo)
droner spy mid 50ish in dex thinking on full combat droner not sure.
Thoes are my char on sat/ I capped a tank and monk on pluto back a year ago.
Now that we know what I play let me tell you the Rav is not overpowered and is fine where it is. The Dev was overpowered and still might need looking at. If any wepons in neocron need the range they are usefull looked at its APU's and Pistols. They are usefull at much greater range then they should be.
Talk to ezza if you wont take my word for it. He posted a week ago that he thought the Rav was weak.
kthxbye
Edit
WoW that was funny while i was typing this ezza chimed in
lame i take a few days off from forum and i come back to this bullshit, you fuckers all got the dev nerfed, and ya it did need it, but theres no need to get the ravager nerfed as well.
i mean fuck i got killed by a executioner PE other day so what i aint here whining.
by the same score i killed amelee tank and a PE with my Rav last night within in minutes of my return, yet they aint whining, the melee tank even came back to challange me(with his PPU :lol: )Hey know, only one clown in here asking for a rav nerf...
Clownst0pper
05-05-04, 20:47
Hey know, only one clown in here asking for a rav nerf...
I believe dribble joy fits into that also?
And myself, and I know loads on saturn who do, just because they dont post on here, doesnt mean many people dont think its overpowered for its TL
I believe dribble joy fits into that also?
And myself, and I know loads on saturn who do, just because they dont post on here, doesnt mean many people dont think its overpowered for its TLWell first I said one 'clown'... that would be you.
Second, you cant quite claim to represent any portion of Saturn in your post here. I mean, I can say the same thing. "I know loads of people on Saturn that dont think it needs to be nerfed." There, said it, so we are on equal footing once more. :rolleyes:
We have seen threads like this before from you- the most noteable one was the one about Droners/Drones needing huge nerfs.
Its one thing if you make a thread and it gets tons of support Clownstopper. But this one, like that other one, is filled with tons of people that dont agree, and a small minority that do agree.
I guess you can say that it SO HAPPENS that everyone that agrees with you doesnt post in the forums... but so what? We discuss here, so you go by what is posted here.
Just like with your droner thread, I will say this here- where are the other cries for nerf for the ravager? Or is it that you happen to be the first/only person to see that its overpowered?
On a separate issue- if its overpowered, its overpowered. That has nothing to do with "context abuse."
I believe dribble joy fits into that also?
And myself, and I know loads on saturn who do, just because they dont post on here, doesnt mean many people dont think its overpowered for its TL
and there you have it, clownst0pper thinking he's represents everyone. Anyone could bullshit. I could say I represent a decent percentage of people who think you are the biggest joke. Does that mean that's a fact? no... so rather than assume that you know everything, how about you tell your friends to activate an account on the forums and actually post. Until then I might suggest you quit trying to represent people who might not even exist for all we know. ;)
If i wanted to use my DG in long range attack ill do that, the same as ill use my ravager in closecombat if i feel like it, okay here goes:
'What should i use? The good or the bad?'
Shadow Dancer
05-05-04, 21:26
I've fought 2 ravager tanks recently. And I don't think it's overpowered.
But it was only 2 tanks. But from what i've seen it's nothing to ask for a nerf.
Ive fought shit loads of rav tanks, it IS over powered without a doubt!
the guns advantage is its range not its fucking damage.
Ive fought shit loads of rav tanks, it IS over powered without a doubt!
the guns advantage is its range not its fucking damage.No no no, you got it wrong. You were supposed to say that its overpowered cause of people using it close up ("context abuse").
If you say that it does too much damage for having such a long range, thats an actual legitimate argument about the rav, and it needs considering outside of a thread this goofy. :angel:
Shadow Dancer
05-05-04, 21:43
Ive fought shit loads of rav tanks, it IS over powered without a doubt!
the guns advantage is its range not its fucking damage.
How come I don't see more tanks using it then? This is a sincere question btw. When dev was overpowered, you saw 5000000000000000 dev tanks at op wars.
If something is overpowered, it will be used alot.
But then again pluto's population sucks big time. So I haven't PvPed that much lately.
every other tank and his mum owns a rav on saturn, its rare to see a cs (higher TL than both rav and dev) being used now. how does that work?
every other tank and his mum owns a rav on saturn, its rare to see a cs (higher TL than both rav and dev) being used now. how does that work?
Funny, I see considerably more CS wielding Tanks than Rav wielding ones. Maybe it's just because the Rav wielding Tanks are the ones that die or run away, whereas the more skillful CS users who are more challenging are the ones that I tend to remember fighting?
The Ravager's versatility and good aim makes it popular, but in terms of raw power, CS is still far better, any Tank who can still aim will tell you so.
It's not exactly any different to the situation a few months ago when every PE ran around with a Black Sun, is it? Lib was still more powerful, but the easy aiming on Black Sun meant that the less skilled PEs ended up faring better with it. The best PEs like Vett still used Lib.
Ive fought shit loads of rav tanks, it IS over powered without a doubt!
the guns advantage is its range not its fucking damage.
So whats the range on HL and Fire apoc, and you dont even have to aim them.
Clownst0pper
05-05-04, 23:27
How come I don't see more tanks using it then? This is a sincere question btw.
Maybe because pluto's population is less than 70, im suprised U see anyone o_O
every other tank and his mum owns a rav on saturn, its rare to see a cs (higher TL than both rav and dev) being used now. how does that work?
would you rather everyone used the same weapon?
leave it as it is, or you just remove the choice from tanks back to everyone using CS
who wants that, its more fun with choice.
then once the tanks are back to CS only people will say nerf the CS
bahhh...cant say anyweapon in this game want me to have them nerfed.
what you got killed by one or 2 ravagers and people complain and shout NERF NERF NERF!!!
*sigh* im not even gonna waste my time with this, at the end of the day the rav is too powerfull for its TL and whatever u say aint gonna change that nuff said right there ;)
*sigh* im not even gonna waste my time with this, at the end of the day the rav is too powerfull for its TL and whatever u say aint gonna change that nuff said right there ;)
Likewise, as long as you don't demonstrate exactly how it's too powerful, at the end of the day it's not going to be nerfed. ;)
Ravager is just fine as it is. I say that both as someone who has (and loves) his, and as someone who has been on the recieving end of one many times. The damage is fine (people need to stop assuming that all 3 bursts always hit, because they don't, especially with speedy people who you can't get at least a 3/4 closed recticle on), and its use as a long range weapon is rather limited as far as PvP goes. Many times I've been in an op fight with my Rav, and its very difficult to get a worthwhile lock with all the players running around, and in most smaller PvP situations, players come charging at you so you can't really use it much for long range anyways, except for maybe the first one or two shots.
I'm personally happy as hell that people are using something other than, and have a viable alternative to the CS for a change. CS still does more damage close up anyways.
IMO Rav does not need nerfage
it may aim and hit better than a CS, but a CS always outdmges a Rav (IF u hit that is)
it's properly being used more and more because it's a "no-aim"-weapon just like RoLH, Healing Light or any Beamtype Spell
P.S.: NERF MONKS!!!!11
*sigh* im not even gonna waste my time with this, at the end of the day the rav is too powerfull for its TL and whatever u say aint gonna change that nuff said right there ;)
Please waste a bit of time with me. Compare the usefull range of the rav to the usefull range fo holy lighting, Fire Apoc. Please do some honest test and tell me if you dont think that if the rav's range/aim is a problem then why isnt the apu spells in the same boat. Why should monks get zero aim and better damage then any cs in the game and better range. Not to mention the pop around corner shoot run back to cover part of the apu lack of aiming.
Im for anything that will stop NC from being Monk-O-Cron.
such a pity everything is cookiecutter setups in this game. There is no customization, whenever there is a variety of weapon weilders, cs/rav/dev, whatever, its bitched to hell cause not everyone is using the same damn thing. Heres, an idea, if you want this game to have ANY customization factor, QUIT with the fucking bitch threads, your the type of people that ruin the game, and any hope of non cookie cutter setups. Just fucking get used to it for crying out loud. :rolleyes:
ps: boost cs, its higher tl than rav :D
such a pity everything is cookiecutter setups in this game. There is no customization, whenever there is a variety of weapon weilders, cs/rav/dev, whatever, its bitched to hell cause not everyone is using the same damn thing. Heres, an idea, if you want this game to have ANY customization factor, QUIT with the fucking bitch threads, your the type of people that ruin the game, and any hope of non cookie cutter setups. Just fucking get used to it for crying out loud. :rolleyes:
ps: boost cs, its higher tl than rav :D
lol, funny how the starter of this thread (who had a heavy combat rank which is melee last time I saw) is now complaining above the ravager, so when shall we expect a 'nerf melee' thread? Oh yes, when you go back to heavy combat... ok
How about like redeemer and RoG, they suffer penalties/bonuses for thier range.
Ravager : -50% @ close range/+50% @ long range
CS : +50% @ close range/-50% @ long range
That would actually make tanks even more deadly... hmmm, maybe not 50% boosts...
no that idea is totally *insert word here*
Please let me know who has trouble with the Ravager and what Class you play.
Really if the Ravager is overpowered, then melee is certainly overpowered
How about like redeemer and RoG, they suffer penalties/bonuses for thier range.
Ravager : -50% @ close range/+50% @ long range
CS : +50% @ close range/-50% @ long range
That would actually make tanks even more deadly... hmmm, maybe not 50% boosts...
that would be awsome :D
I have never lost in a fight VS a tank using a ravager, wether Im using a CS or DEV they just dont match up.
Clownst0pper
07-05-04, 13:05
Whether you think it is or not, for its TL the ravager does too much damage, regardless of what you think.
8|
So what you're saying is the Ravager should suck donkey nuts? Because any nerf to the gun as it is will basically make it that way.
The whole point of it doing too much damage for its TL is moot, because the highest level non-AOE cannon is only TL 103 anyways. It makes perfect sense to do ever so slightly less damage being that its only three TLs lower than the CS. By that same logic the CS does too much damage for its TL level too. Keep in mind that these are also large cannons and not pistols or rifles, meaning that they should do higher damage compared to their TL level. Try throwing a TL 120 single-fire Ray-gun cannon in there and then see if you can still complain about the Ravager's damage. :p
Btw, the range on it is equivilant to that of the Speed Gun when capped I've discovered. Therefore its hardly a sniper weapon.
Clownst0pper
07-05-04, 13:13
So what you're saying is the Ravager should suck donkey nuts? Because any nerf to the gun as it is will basically make it that way.
The whole point of it doing too much damage for its TL is moot, because the highest level non-AOE cannon is only TL 103 anyways. It makes perfect sense to do ever so slightly less damage being that its only three TLs lower.
Btw, the range on it is equivilant to that of the Speed Gun when capped I've discovered. Therefore its hardly a sniper weapon.
As a single beam firing weapon, comparing it to a speed gat is silly, the range may be the same, but the speed gat wont hit 3/4's of the time.
And if your saying it does less dmg than a CS, its actually wrong, 99% of the time a CS will miss at least one burst, and like eledhbrant said previously, over time, the dmg between the two, dispite a 3 tl difference, works out roughly the same
Ravager bursts aren't always a guaranteed full hit either. There's been plenty of times where one, or even two of the bursts stray off because I don't have a full lock on my opponent. regardless of range. Only when I have a full lock is a full hit pretty much guaranteed.
Whether you think it is or not, for its TL the ravager does too much damage, regardless of what you think.
8|So why bother posting the thread?
No-one agrees with you, you havent posted any real evidence, but still "I'm right you're all wrong"?
Clownst0pper
07-05-04, 13:35
So why bother posting the thread?
No-one agrees with you, you havent posted any real evidence, but still "I'm right you're all wrong"?
OH wait, im sorry, Blade, eledhbrant, dribble joy, myself, twist3d, They dont agree right? 8|
ive stated why, based on its TL, and as a beam weapon, compared to the CS over time, it does identicle dmg if not more, when U take out the amount of times a CS misses.
Id rather see its TL raised to 115, rather than it be overpowered for its TL now.
OH wait, im sorry, Blade, eledhbrant, dribble joy, myself, twist3d, They dont agree right? 8| Eledhbrant said it outdamaged CS, that doesnt take into account aiming and pvp'ing.
Who's twist3d?
I've seen 15 people say it's ok, but you'll dismiss them all as rav users :rolleyes:
ive stated why, based on its TL, and as a beam weapon, compared to the CS over time, it does identicle dmg if not more, when U take out the amount of times a CS misses.You state it as if its fact, but you dont post ANY EVIDENCE.
Id rather see its TL raised to 115, rather than it be overpowered for its TL now.Die.
Id rather see its TL raised to 115, rather than it be overpowered for its TL now.
if they raise the rav to tl 115, they can remove it straight away
So why bother posting the thread?
No-one agrees with you, you havent posted any real evidence, but still "I'm right you're all wrong"?
owned, pretty stupid indeed to post a thread for feedback and then basically tell the people who hold the opposite view, that your wrong no matter the facts or points you've said.
that's just damn ignorant.
http://home.comcast.net/~mikecanejo/ravager.JPG
Took 3-4 days alone just to get the ravager component part as it seems to
be very uncommon part. But anyway, I havn't decided to mod it because
it seems to work really good just on energy packets, i'll mod it later on to
get it's condition back to 120 :)
Parad0x -FBI
Clownst0pper
07-05-04, 21:14
I seem to remember afew months ago where 90% of the community didnt want the devourer nerfing, as it "wasnt overpowered" to them, Sure enough, it was nerfed and rightly so.
Ill accept C&C, but your all blatently ignoring the TL of the rare cannon, and as ill continue to say, most of the people who dont want it nerfed are more than likely Tanks or PPU's.
@ celt, when I said raising its TL, It was sarcastic, as the dmg it does now, would be more suitable, its practically over kill.
And if the Ravager isnt as good as the CS, why is on saturn trade is permently spammed with "Buying 2+ slot ravager - direct me"
Oh wait, the weapon isnt powerful, or doesnt have great range, ive included a screenshot of the range that is possible with ravager.
When I get back tonight, I will post dmg reports of the CS and Ravager, on test server.
I seem to remember afew months ago where 90% of the community didnt want the devourer nerfing, as it "wasnt overpowered" to them, Sure enough, it was nerfed and rightly so.
Ill accept C&C, but your all blatently ignoring the TL of the rare cannon, and as ill continue to say, most of the people who dont want it nerfed are more than likely Tanks or PPU's.
@ celt, when I said raising its TL, It was sarcastic, as the dmg it does now, would be more suitable, its practically over kill.
And if the Ravager isnt as good as the CS, why is on saturn trade is permently spammed with "Buying 2+ slot ravager - direct me"
Oh wait, the weapon isnt powerful, or doesnt have great range, ive included a screenshot of the range that is possible with ravager.
When I get back tonight, I will post dmg reports of the CS and Ravager, on test server.Range is messed up for all cannons, it's not accurate. I can hit that guy from
that range with my CS, I'll prove it if i have to... just as the ravager wont hit
all 3 shots, the CS won't hit all 4 but some hit from that range.
I only have a ravager now, after a year of using cursed soul it has gotten
old, the ravager inspires me to go back to PvP, as you all know I've been out
of the game for a while. If some of you know my skill from before, you know I
pvp with a passion. Currently I only devote my time to a few in dueling because
most of the newcommers capping hear of my legendary parad0x and want to
engage in a duel just so if they win they can boast to the world.
One of the things I love about the ravager tho is that it brings back my fun I
had in beta4. Me and megapothead (legit) were pking everyone in tag teaming
with STORM laser cannons back when people didn't know anything about
resist setups, hell they didn't even work anyway! lol.. but those STORM cannons
were crazy, this was also when health wasn't doubled like now, tanks had
like 250-300 HP with STORM lc doing like 60dmg per bullet... 4 shots a round.
This was when the weapons dropped at shitty qualities but alas now they
are in 100% ish conditions thanks to my persistant requests and posts to kk
to get this changed... a much delayed change at that.
Truth is if they didn't nerf the STORM lc recently to 3 shots per round, it would
do more damage than the ravager! I hate how KK is changing classic weapons
for newer weapons to "shine" out against the rest. STORM was unique because
it did 4x damage per round... it's what made the STORM unique and balanced
because 4 shots at less damage per shot is harder to hit em all than 3 shots
with higher damage per shot... common sense.
What to do with the ravager to balance pvp:
1) Change it to 4 shots per round, lower the damage for each shot. Leave
the total damage output intact, just increase the shots per round to 4. This
will make it harder for tanks to land all 4 shots, same as the Cursed soul. It
will take more time to focus the reticule for all 4 shots to hit making it more
balanced.
Imagine if the CS was changed to 3 shots per round with the same damage
output!? It would be insanely over powered since almost every time you shoot,
one round misses, now lets increase the damage per shot and make it 3 shots
which increases the chance for all shots to hit at the same time... then we'd
be here talking about the CS...not the ravager.
This won't effect PvM that much, this is really a timing issue for PvP and aim
that will be factored to balance it.. PvM will be the same.
2) Fix the range on weapons, the reticule closed at the same distance for
a CS and a ravager and a Malediction... It's been like this forever, the distance
of weapons is not synchronized with the players distance from the object he's
shooting... old problem.
That's about it, i'd like to hear what someone has to say against these reasons.
Parad0x -FBI
I seem to remember afew months ago where 90% of the community didnt want the devourer nerfing, as it "wasnt overpowered" to them, Sure enough, it was nerfed and rightly so.
imo dev didn't need the nerfage it got (maybe toneing down the dmg a LITTLE)
it went from a good weapon to utter shit
btw. imo monks should use up stamina whenever they cast a spell...
slaughteruall
07-05-04, 23:12
imo dev didn't need the nerfage it got (maybe toneing down the dmg a LITTLE)
it went from a good weapon to utter shit
Utter shit the DEV was way over powered
btw. imo monks should use up stamina whenever they cast a spell...
This is also the stupidest thing i've ever heard. How about some reason to this?
Slaughter
Utter shit the DEV was way over powered
oh yeah i forgot, it WAS way overpowered...
if u were to stupid to adapet your con setup :wtf:
This is also the stupidest thing i've ever heard. How about some reason to this?
Slaughter
because it's the right thing to do, and you are wrong anyway. :rolleyes:
slaughteruall
07-05-04, 23:34
because it's the right thing to do, and you are wrong anyway. :rolleyes:
Yeah that is a perfect reason to do it. Maybe try a story based idea.
And i've seen your setups. Ever go a OP fight with Red SL since the one at grant?
Slaughter
Clownst0pper
08-05-04, 00:02
oh yeah i forgot, it WAS way overpowered...
if u were to stupid to adapet your con setup :wtf:
because it's the right thing to do, and you are wrong anyway. :rolleyes:
As an APU, despite having capped fire resist, and the rest in poison, along side the inclusion of a hazard 3, the devouer was over powered.
And still is in many respects, Not only does the reticle never close for you to fully hit the target, but the range on the devourer is so bugged is laughable, U can be leagues away from the devourer and it will still hit you, its a joke.
And in essences, its basically shitty codiing due to the "image" of the flame as a projectile.
rav is fine.
dev is fine.
cs is fine.
doombeamer sucks monkey balls.
end of story.
I`ve got no experience with the ravager, but I think I`ll say something about weapons and pvp in Neocron in general.
Neocron is a short to medium fighting game 99% of the time. Reasons: runspeed, to low damageoutput and/or to high damageresistance, especially when combined with buffs and finally the heal.
Necron is balanced towards close combat. What speaks for this statement? 1. Runspeed. You can get close to one of your enemies so blindingly fast its not even funny. Your not even taking a big risk if you run right in the open towards your enemy because, he can`t hit you enough before you are upon him and then it is hammer time.
2. Damageoutput/damage resistance/heal. Goes hand in hand with runspeed. To get the needed damage output (especially in op fights with buffs, heal and all) no long range weapon really cut it. If you are far away its just to easy for the target to hide in a little vally or behind some struktures and put up a heal and then you have lost the initiative.
Rifle spies in particular suffers from this as they are forced to fight on the other classes terms which is close to medium fighting. The way spies do this is to do the inq setup to get better defence and in the process removing almost all of the 20 points of dex(give or take) which is about 100 million exp points to be a PE with lower defence.
As a game that is marketing itself as something that "almost feels like an fps" there is to much mmorpg in Neocron. The only time neocron feels like and fps is in one on one engagements. In group fights with ppus this game looks more like the traditional point and click fights you can see in other mmorpgs. And is there really that big difference for a melee using tank and a heavy weapon using tank? One jumps around the target and wacks his blade while the other runs up sits down and lets his cannon rip loose and all this is done almost at the same range.
Weapons need to be alot more different. Long range has to be long range, meaning they are next to useless in close combat and they have to be able to deliver the goods at long range. Tactics should be about movement of forces and deploying the correct weapons under the best possible cirumstances. Today these two things are very shallow indeed. Movement: Get close to your target and kill it. Deploying the right weapons: Whatever hits good close up.
Yeah that is a perfect reason to do it. Maybe try a story based idea.
And i've seen your setups. Ever go a OP fight with Red SL since the one at grant?
Slaughteri've seen your setups, too...
ever PvPed w/o a PPU strapped to your ass? :rolleyes:
As an APU, despite having capped fire resist, and the rest in poison, along side the inclusion of a hazard 3, the devouer was over powered.
And still is in many respects, Not only does the reticle never close for you to fully hit the target, but the range on the devourer is so bugged is laughable, U can be leagues away from the devourer and it will still hit you, its a joke.
And in essences, its basically shitty codiing due to the "image" of the flame as a projectile.
so because a dev could kill an APU makes it overpowered?
btw. what dmg do u get from a xheated cs on your APU, when buffed with heat 3?
FYI, the aiming of the dev (and the dmg-calculation) is the same as a raygun
the dev was overpowered because of shitty netcode, for example some1 stands right beside u but is miles away on ur screen, THAT is what made the dev overpowered
slaughteruall
08-05-04, 01:53
Yes i have. Ask the CM/TG/FA that i killed at Tyron during the zerg. It was only me there no one else. Got 6 or so rest GR'd out. Was funny.
Slaughter
There is no way Rav does more damage over time than CS. Each shot only does slightly more, yet its RoF is only ~150/min. Whereas CS goes over 200/min. In PvM, damage works out roughly even. CS misses 1 out of the 4 rounds usually but hits all 4 sometimes balancing it out.
PvP is altogether completely different.
Ravager works on beam bonus, like laser and ray weapons. Each additional shot after the first is more likely to hit but does less damage (opposite of burst bonus). So 3 hits with a Rav in PvP actually does less damage than 3 hits of CS. And 4 CS hits deal far more. If that weren't so, I would use my CS more often than I use Rav. In fights where I'm fighting a Rav user, he can hit every shot, while I spend half my time missing, and I'll still win.
All Ravager does is make average Tanks a little bit better if they can't aim a CS very well. Just like RoLH and BoH make average pistol users better, and RoG and Healing Light make average rifle users better. But at the end of the day, CS does more damage.
People are asking for Ravagers on Trade because they want every H-C rare. Just like people ask on trade for Holy Pestilence parts, Fire Apoc, etc. It's nothing more than a fad. The good Tanks use their Rav for a week or two, and then put it in the gogo until OP war time. And even then, they have to take CS with them, because Rav won't outdamage a Holy Heal.
Yes i have. Ask the CM/TG/FA that i killed at Tyron during the zerg. It was only me there no one else. Got 6 or so rest GR'd out. Was funny.
Slaughter
ofc... :rolleyes:
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