View Full Version : Quick PPU question
Me and another PPU was checking numbers to tweak setups. We found somthing that really confused us. The damage number on my shelter was better then his, but the damage on my heal was better for him then me.
Now how can this be i get better stats on a shelter but worse stats on a heal. Now we were looking at the same spell no same modded spells.
here are the differences in our setups.
ppu 161 ppw 104 psu 172 psi 108
ppu 152 ppw 125 psu 153 psi 114
now the damage on the holy heal was 558 on the ppu 167 but only 489 for the ppu 152 monk. ok that might make sense but then the shelter was 407 for the ppu 161 monk and 411 for the ppu 152 monk.
Not sure what gives here. Why are the damage number different between shelters and heals.
o_O 8| O_o
Shadow Dancer
02-05-04, 07:33
1.ppw affects dmg%, just incase you didn't know.
2.There's a bonus point for spells, where going above a certain amount of ppu(or apu) will give it a major boost. It depends on the TL.
Hope I helped. What TL is holy heal and holy shelter btw?
EDIT:
look
Holy heal is TL 85, Holy shelter is TL 95. Now I've always theorized that the bonus point for a spell is it's TL+68. The bonus point is a number where the ppu(or apu)gives a much higher bonus to damage than usual. It's usually that number+3. So the bonus point for HL would be 169-172. Of course, this is all *theory*.
here are the differences in our setups.
ppu 161 ppw 104 psu 172 psi 108
ppu 152 ppw 125 psu 153 psi 114
Assuming I'm right, the bonus point for holy heal would be 153. The bonus point for holy shelter would be 163. Now one of you has 21 ppw more than the other. Remember that makes a noticable difference.
If i'm right about my "theory", then the ppu with 152 has not hit the flip point for holy heal while the other has. And that's why the other has a significantly higher damage stat. However, none of you have hit the bonus point for holy shelter, so "normal" ppu bonuses apply. And since the one with less ppu has MORE ppw, it kind of cancels out. And that's why your damage are so close. 21 ppw>9 ppu ;)
So basically, the monk with higher ppu hit the bonus point for holy heal but not holy shelter, and the monk with lower ppu did not hit either bonus point.
I *COULD* be wrong. But I seriously doubt it. :p
HH is TL 85, and HS is tl 95 i think.
ok so it might indeed be better to spec PPW to 100+25 125 for a larger mana pool since quickbelt slots are golden on a ppu, thus no space for boosters. you give up a bit on holy heal but still get the same on shelter.
the monk with the lower ppu and higher ppw has a mana pool of 405 i think and the monk with 104 ppw has a mana pool of 330. That seems to be a big difference. With the boosters set to the slow rate now is the extra mana pool worth it?
Clownst0pper
02-05-04, 17:09
A ppu only ever needs 174 PPU with PA 3/ as much psi use as u can get, dont spec for catharsis sanctum.
The rest psi power, and u cant go wrong.
Sounds bugged or human error.
If you both used the same the spells. It would seem obvious the PPU with higher skills should get better stats on them both.
Sounds bugged or human error.
If you both used the same the spells. It would seem obvious the PPU with higher skills should get better stats on them both.
if you read close a few times that guy is on to somthing on the way you get a magic boost at 68 above the TL. It did make sense the 3rd time i read it.
Yeah reading the thread would have helped.
Seems its just a feature then, not a bug.
Let me get this right,
The 161 monk, gets 558 heal, 407 shelter
The 152 monk, gets 489 heal, 411 shelter?
A few questions. What levels are the two monks Int' and PSI? If the 152 Monk has higher int/psi, that would give a dribbledown effect to PSI/Int settings, like PPU, increasing damage. Which means (in theory) if the 152 had 161 PPU, his heal and shelter would be much higher. Also, where are the Int Points distributed, does the 161 monk Poke, or Hack?
Let me get this right,
The 161 monk, gets 558 heal, 407 shelter
The 152 monk, gets 489 heal, 411 shelter?
A few questions. What levels are the two monks Int' and PSI? If the 152 Monk has higher int/psi, that would give a dribbledown effect to PSI/Int settings, like PPU, increasing damage. Which means (in theory) if the 152 had 161 PPU, his heal and shelter would be much higher. Also, where are the Int Points distributed, does the 161 monk Poke, or Hack?
the 152 monk is psi 114
the 161 monk is psi 108
not sure on overall int but the 152 monk hacks with spy 3 can do base hacks total hack around 110, and pokes tl 83 ish before spy 3. The 161ppu monk does hack at all just pokes 115 with spy3.
The higher PSI levels, will filter down into the damage percentage naturally, so would account for higher % levels on higher level spells, the lower level spells, are easier to cap damage on, so the damage percentile will be higher for the person with more PPU as they are nearer to capping the actual spell properly, whilst the PSI levels themselves will work in favour of the increased damage. Try taking a PSI boosting drug, then checking your damage on the spells, it should have increased.
A ppu only ever needs 174 PPU with PA 3/ as much psi use as u can get, dont spec for catharsis sanctum.
The rest psi power, and u cant go wrong.
There's no reason not to go for cath sanctum, it is in fact a very helpful spell. My guide for setting up a ppu is this: All int in psu, all dex in agil. You'll need 88 mst, then put points in ppu until you cap freq on your holy catharsis sanctum, which is 10/min. Exactly what ppu level will get you to cap varries depending on what your psu is at. With about 207 psu and 174 ppu I capped everything. The rest can then go into ppw to give yourself a nice pool.
If you are using cath sanct though as a ppu. It does kind of the mean the fight is gone badly and you probally have allready lost. I know myself I only ever really have cath up if I am trying a really hard rez or am running away.
Other wise single cast is better.
Cath sanct is just such an ugly way for things to happen. Horrid spell.
There's no reason not to go for cath sanctum, it is in fact a very helpful spell. My guide for setting up a ppu is this: All int in psu, all dex in agil.
I'd agree it's worth going for cath sanc - it can be very useful for rezzing under pressure.
However, there's no reasonable justification (that I can think of :)) for speccing all int into psu. If you drop 90 points into hack or implant the net change to your spells is *exactly* (no more, no less :p) 9 points off your psi pool. In my opinion being able to hack an op or poke 115 is far more useful than 9 mana points. You'll still cap frequency on all your spells, and if it makes a difference to your dmg percent I damned if I noticed it when I lomed (all stats were the same after I'd finished).
Dex is more reasonable, but I still spec 37 vec use just because the reveler is so sexy.
Once your int is high enough as a PPU, You can easily have enough to hack an op 103-105 total needed to make it an easy hack, or enough to poke 115.
You can counter the lose in psi use by going less ppw and more ppu as well. You can have 180 ppu and a pool of 320ish I think or 177 ppu and a pool of 340.
Lower psu means higher ppu, means lower ppw, means lower pool. I can't think of why you wouldn't want a larger pool? Cath Sanct costs 306 psi to cast, so you're going to need at least 310 or so. If you want to be safe it should be at least 350. Plus the higher your pool is, the faster you regen. A pool of around 400 gives a really fast regen, which is very handy when you're trying to get enough psi to recast shelter after being debuffed. I suppose its a personal preference, if you value a tradeskill more then being the best as a ppu, then sure go for it. Otherwise you need all int in psu. If I was a ppu again and I was beaten by a tradeskiller ppu, I would be really depressed. I am certain I could outperform any ppu that gimps themselves with a tradeskill. I know, I've been on both sides. I've been a tradeskiller ppu many times, its why I never capped int. All the loming : ) But never ever have I considered myself competative while a tradeskiller. I can fight and do alright, but all it takes is a combat ppu to show up and I'm done.
As for cath sanctum, yes it is often used when things aren't going so well, but is that a bad thing? Would you rather just giveup and die, instead of casting cath sanct? Personaly I used it most often in pepper park to avoid gank squads. Maybe you always travel with other's, but I am solo sometimes. I don't drag along an apu everytime I go into pepper park, or everytime I go anywhere for that matter. Are you joking about normal cath? That has to be the most useless spell ever. The high casting cost and low rof for a single removal of poison/boost/shock is a joke. I could easily keep you shocked while you waste your pool using normal cath.
Shadow Dancer
02-05-04, 18:40
the monk with the lower ppu and higher ppw has a mana pool of 405 i think and the monk with 104 ppw has a mana pool of 330. That seems to be a big difference. With the boosters set to the slow rate now is the extra mana pool worth it?
IMO the extra mana pool is worth it, if you just lose a few damage percent on the heal spell.
105-110 ppw is a bonus point, where you get loads of mana. Like at 104 you have 330, 110 you have 381.
IIRC, higher level int or psi does not affect dmg percent on a spell. If it does, it's very very miniscule, and has nothing to do with the "unique" differences you guys have on your spells.
I agree with Carinth's post as well.
Lots of ppus have commented on me having tons of mana and debuffing left and right heheh. It's kuz of my high ppw. I value higher mana pool than higher damage percent. It's not like a 610% HL doesn't hurt.
:p
I am certain I could outperform any ppu that gimps themselves with a tradeskill.
While you're admiring your extra 9 points of PSI use I'll be re-hacking our op cos you only had 2 hackers :rolleyes:
Or poking my team up when they die so they get back into the fight faster.
You've touched a nerve I'm afraid. I am sick to the back teeth of fuckwits muttering on about being "gimped" because someone else has slightly less mana, 1% less dmg on their CS, or takes marginally more damage from poison. It's completely retarded.
But by all means have your uber-winarr-leet ppu setup, because the less hackers there are in other clans the less hassle we have holding our ops :p
Shadow Dancer
02-05-04, 18:53
That reminds me, with the new drugs next patch my apu can take up poking with exactly 0 gimpage.
While you're admiring your extra 9 points of PSI use I'll be re-hacking our op cos you only had 2 hackers :rolleyes:
Or poking my team up when they die so they get back into the fight faster.
You've touched a nerve I'm afraid. I am sick to the back teeth of fuckwits muttering on about being "gimped" because someone else has slightly less mana, 1% less dmg on their CS, or takes marginally more damage from poison. It's completely retarded.
But by all means have your uber-winarr-leet ppu setup, because the less hackers there are in other clans the less hassle we have holding our ops :p
That's ridiculous, I'm saying during combat. Comparing ppu power and ability, I will run circles around a tradeskiller ppu. Just because I don't poke or hack myself doesn't mean other's in the clan won't. If we didn't have the player resources to fight, we wouldn't be fighting. So sure, hack the op, but who will ppu your troops while we're attacking? You could even sucessfuly finish the 3rd hack to find we occupy the op regardless of who owns it.
I don't demean anyone who takes up a tradeskill, it's a great way to help your clan. Without tradeskills we'd be stuck twidling our thumbs in NC. It's just that specialization has made tradeskilling and combat impair one another. You can not do both to the fullest. If you take up tradeskills you are nolonger the best you could be as a ppu. I really think you underestimate how much it drags you down.
I will admit though that I could be a lil rusty, I havnt' been a serious ppu in a long time. If you can show me that the difference between an op hacking ppu and a combat ppu really isn't much, then I'll apologize : ) You said 9 PSU, well that's not all you lose. In order to maintain capped freq on your rare sanctums, you'll need to raise ppu some. Which means lowering your ppw, which means a smaller pool. As Shadow said, you will most likely lower it below the bonus point and lose a singnificant amount of pool. I've been an op hacking ppu before, so I know for a fact it was gimpage. It's possible in the months since then, that it could have changed, which is why I'm asking you to prove me wrong : ) Show me how little a change it is.
On a sligthly dif topic, if you're correct and ppu's can hack ops or imp while at the same time maintain their abilities as the best ppus.... I think someone might be a lil overpowered. The whole reason our int is screwed is because monks make better tradeskillers then spies. We could level faster and easily takeup tradeskills without impairing our combat ability. If we can once again do that, then maybe int has gotten too easy to level again.
i feel though that a ppu can only use cath sanctum efficently if they wear pa, but the only reason a monk would ever need to use cath sanctum is IF they wear pa...
I have never worn pa on my ppu and never used cath sanctum, or holy cath... their a waste of time... what with the cost of mana/time of cast and the fail rate. maybe its just me but ppw will only effect the damage of your spells up until a certain amount and then the most effective place to put your points from then on is into apu/ppu, to maximise the damage per point spent.
IMO holy anti para/anti damage boost > holy cath/cath sanctum.
Stuff worth reading but not worth re-posting when you can look up a little bit.
The difference between my pure combat PPU and my Hack @ 108 ppu is 9 mana points. Nothing else. Nada. Nil. I cap frequency on all my spells, have a mana pool of 320~ and do the same dmg% I did before I lomed to hack. We must be living in different worlds; in mine there is no noticeable difference between a hacking ppu and a non hacking ppu.
As vague evidence I note that most Silent PPUs seem to be able to hack, and a couple of them are among the best PPUs on pluto.
BTW im intrested in where you came up with the TL+68 number for the stat bump to spells and does this apply to weps also. Such as will you get better stats on a cs is you get >173 HC. cs is tl 105 so 105+68= 173 so do points above 173 add more then they should on a linear scale. So if its some exponential curve is that the place it starts to take off.
If the players using the characters are skilled, Then there is no difference between having a trade skill and not having one at high intell levels on a monk, 85+.
I could list the names of good ppus who play on saturn, some which have trade skills some of which dont. There is no difference in there combat effectiveness.
A ppu with 189 psi use and 105 hacking skill. Is much more useful that a ppu with 200+ psi use and no tradeskill.
Because as we all know getting a rof of 9/min on cath sanct rather than 10/min will determine everthing.
I have never worn pa on my ppu
Why? Seriously...I can't think of any good reasons for NOT using PA. Every time I've tried to come up with a non-PA setup it has gimped me awfully. I can't think of any good non-PA team PPUs on pluto at all in fact.
the only way to effective hack as a monk is to use advanced nerves 3 which means less in transport, thus less in force resist... also you are missing out on the extra agl you pa monks need oh so badly... your agl is gonna be like 112?
whichs means you need more in atheltics, which means you have weaker resists... so yes,
pure combat monks easily beat trade skiller monks...
the only way to effective hack as a monk is to use advanced nerves 3 which means less in transport, thus less in force resist...
As already noted the sum difference between a hacker ppu and non-hacker ppu is 9 mana pool points. Advanced nerves 3 is not needed in the slightest.
i agree pa does have its good sides, but a slower ppu can't keep up with his team mates, i run faster than most people, thus is another good defence and imo is the best defence there is, they simply can't hit you.
to make another point, why are you leaving your team with one less ppu? besides, a ppu won't have a massive amount of hack, everyone knows hacker spies > hacker monks... a spy can have a huge amount of hack and not gimp at all, which in turn the spy can hack the op in the first try, instead of a gimped, barely able ppu monk hacker, who having a hard time trying to hack, getting debuffed in the meantime while hes in the hacking screen, ppu dies... one ppu down.
nuff said.
PA doesn't impair agility enough for it to hurt your runspeed much. Besides, how often does running at full speed really matter? You're forgetting how often shock is thrown around : )
Again, for cath sanctum: I used the 3 normal anti spells most of the time, but that means you hafta give up multiple quick belt slots or be swapping more so then often. I died quite often when I stopped to swap in an anti shock. Cath sanctum on the other hand lets you be free to ignore boost and shock. The casting cost/time is worth it because it lasts for quite a long time. I really miss that spell, prolly the biggest down to bein a hybrid.
We're not talking about skill here, just how stats effect your character's ability. That someoen is skilled enough to overcome a gimp is pointless. Place them against someone with the same skill level that's not a gimp and they'll lose.
Sol: your hack is 108 right? That's 88 base hack with spy3 to boost it up to 108. Hack 88 is 139 int points, which amounts to about 28 psu points (assuming your base psu stays over 100). That means your psu will be down to somewhere around 180. That is a significant slowdown on your spells rof, so you'll need to raise ppu. Which as I keep saying, lowers your pool. A pool of 320 is barely acceptable imo. If you boosted it up to 400 you'll be amazed at how much faster you regen. You'll be chomping boosters much less then too. It's only been like two or three months since I was a hacker ppu, I can recall the difference very easily. You may not think 1/min rof is much, but you feel it when you're in combat. The extra seconds it takes to cast add up, and ontop of that the extra time you hafta wait for regen.
Plus to be fair, 1/min rof varries widely dependin on the spell. For a holy rez, 1/min is half of the spells cap. For holy cath sanctum it's 1/10th. For a holy shelter it's 1/55th i believe. So getting an extra 1/min on your sanctum is actualy a big improvement compared to an extra 1/min on your shelter.
There's no reason not to go for cath sanctum, it is in fact a very helpful spell. My guide for setting up a ppu is this: All int in psu, all dex in agil. You'll need 88 mst, then put points in ppu until you cap freq on your holy catharsis sanctum, which is 10/min. Exactly what ppu level will get you to cap varries depending on what your psu is at. With about 207 psu and 174 ppu I capped everything. The rest can then go into ppw to give yourself a nice pool.
You've neglected to mention that you'll need to poke at first to cap DEX with MOVEON... ;)
Shadow Dancer
02-05-04, 20:35
lol hive
BTW im intrested in where you came up with the TL+68 number for the stat bump to spells and does this apply to weps also. Such as will you get better stats on a cs is you get >173 HC. cs is tl 105 so 105+68= 173 so do points above 173 add more then they should on a linear scale. So if its some exponential curve is that the place it starts to take off.
I know shit about guns.
I came up with that number for spells by testing, but I could be wrong. But I don't think I am. ;)
Why? Seriously...I can't think of any good reasons for NOT using PA. Every time I've tried to come up with a non-PA setup it has gimped me awfully. I can't think of any good non-PA team PPUs on pluto at all in fact.
Pete the psi was a good non PA ppu.
...give up...
It doesn't matter if I need the extra 1/min because, as stated soooo many times already, the net total change from me loming to hack was 9 points off mana pool. I DID NOT LOSE ANY FREQUENCY.
I've have 339 without hack. I wouldn't have 400 either way, because I choose not to set my PPU up like that. If I DID spec for 400, I imagine with hack I'd probably end up with about 385 and all other stats the same. Either way, I still see no good reason NOT to have a tradeskill.
EDIT: Oh noz double post...come on people, do try to keep up :p
Pete the psi was a good non PA ppu.
Bleh skirting a Keep It In Game mod slap here. So I'll try to keep this on topic and relevent. Mind you he's left now so maybe different rules apply.
Yes he was a good non-PA ppu, but he was not (in my opinion) a good non-PA team PPU. He was very very good when surgically implanted up someones ass, but you can't readily heal and buff 3-4 people without PA - you have less mana, slower casts, and your team takes more damage because your spells are that bit less powerful.
Team PPU is the important aspect. I want setup that lets me help the maximum number of people to the maximum effect. Regardless of how KK have set the game up, I still consider that to be a PPUs job.
Yes he was a good non-PA ppu, but he was not (in my opinion) a good non-PA team PPU. He was very very good when surgically implanted up someones ass, but you can't readily heal and buff 3-4 people without PA - you have less mana, slower casts, and your team takes more damage because your spells are that bit less powerful.
I have 330 mana same as you. My spells freq are all capped other then rares. And I have damage capped on all spells other then shelter and spells a few other high tl spells. But even then my holy shelter is still at 560%. So using pa and not is the same as long as you know a little about setting up a ppu ;)
I have 330 mana same as you. My spells freq are all capped other then rares. And I have damage capped on all spells other then shelter and spells a few other high tl spells. But even then my holy shelter is still at 560%. So using pa and not is the same as long as you know a little about setting up a ppu ;)
WTF. You're still here? You owe me a pint, I'll need a new one the next time I go out to celebrate you leaving :p
I do know quite a lot about setting up a ppu. I don't claim to know everything, but I'm quite confused as to how you could get that high px on shelter and still have 330 mana without PA. Bearing in mind my heal and shelter are both DAMAGE stat capped. Sometimes I feel like I'm playing a different game to everyone else :confused:
That said I used to spec all my PEs psi into resist PSI to protect against HL...live and learn :cool:
Clownst0pper
02-05-04, 21:02
I kinda agree with none PA ppus being less effective in groups, eledhbrant and gestra, and st cuthbert, all non PA PPU's and only really concentrate on single players..Hmm
Hive: Ah yea forgot about that, I capped my dex when you could lom around whatever you wanted. So i killed doom reapers with a poison modded pistol : )
Sol: I won't give up! I am amazed though, if what you said is true. To take up hacking without any detrimental effect on your stats is not right. Is this with PA3 and DS? Those two boosted what a ppu is capable of by quite a lot. I didn't think even with those that it would be possible to overcome the tradeskiller gimp. I'm gonna go mess around with a skill manager, though it won't tell me if I still cap freq on cath sanct. I have a rough idea of what's needed to do that though.
I'm very resistant towards admiting what you say is true, because it'll mean ppu's are overpowered in yet another way. PPU's are ridiculously versitle, we're more JOAT then PE's are. If we can tradeskill without impairing combat, then we've gone even farther. The ppu can replace the spy entirely (aside from the sit at home const/res tradeskillers). A ppu/apu combo really will outdo everything. I used to be the handyman, ready for any given situation. I was a Researcher/Poker/Repairer/Cloner/PPU. I could patch up my entire team after dying, with repairs and pokes. Then as a ppu I could take them right back to keep on fighting. I was the most useful person in my clan by far. So I understand were you're coming from Sol. I know just talking about a Hacker/PPU isn't nearly as bad as talking about a multiple tradeskill ppu, but it's the same idea. There are only two effective tradeskill/combat combos I know of, const/drones, and pistoleros. As a spy or pe you can take up pistols and still be good at your tradeskills. That's why there are many pe hackers and pokers. Neither of these compare to what a ppu can already do effectively, to also add tradeskilling is too much.
There used to be Hacker Hybrids who could hack an op entirely by themselves. They could kill all the turrets and then go hack. They could even fight off a few people if someone came to defend. That's what I fear happening. Of course you need 3 hackers now, but the point is that one person shouldn't excel at doing so many things. What's the point of a spy hacker when a ppu could do the job and also ppu a team. PPU's are entirely too important already, we don't want to make them more important.
yeah, its pretty easy to get 330 psi pool and get 560% on a shelter.the runspeed nerf from the pa i think IS considerable, and the fact pa is so heavy you need to nerf force resist just to be able to carry enough psi boosters for the almighty cath sanctum :rolleyes:
Any monk who does not wear PA. Would be better with PA on it is that simple. The bonus of PA far out weighs any negatives it has. But you do look cooler without it, which really is all that matters. It doesn't effect looking after people or groups though. For a ppu though I would say groups are by far more stressful since there is more mundane shit to do. When looking after 1-2 people its easy to know who to heal reshield when they get anti buffed the more people the harder and more frustrating that becomes.
I used to think having a tradeskill on a monk was a gimp till I lommed to hacking and noticed not a single thing change in my viability as a ppu. As a ppu or really even as an apu who always gets a psi 3 hacking or poking is an easy trade skill to take up that results in no gimpage of your character at all and much increased flexability in what you can do.
Is it better having 3 monks who can hack or 3 spies at an OP fight?
Monks > than spies in every aspect be they ppu or apu for a combat situation.
Its just a myth that having one of the light trade skills gimps a monk. Cst or Rez sure, With the skill you need that is a gimp most likely. But hacking or poking really easy to have as a monk.
Shadow Dancer
02-05-04, 21:30
Carinth I believe what solitaire is saying is true. I can get around 80 hacking before I start losing rof on HL, and that's TL 101. Holy heal and holy shelter would be your most important spells, yes? Or do you disagree? Anyways they are TL 85 and TL 95, then combine that with a spy 3 and a higher int(ppus usually have higher int than apu) and I can definitely see him hacking and still capping freq on his most important spells.
Of course, I don't think you can hack without gimpage, without pa. ;)
Clownst0pper
02-05-04, 21:38
Um gestra doesnt wear PA, and she/he is a PPU to be reconed with, great ppu, no doubt.
with advanced nerve 3, + spy 3, u only need like 90 base, and as gestra says, if ur INT is high enough,U can get above 184 psi use, which caps most spells rof's
To me, Advanced Nerves is slight gimpage. -STR means less Resist Force...
Clownst0pper
02-05-04, 21:49
Since when does resist force make any difference to a good ppu who always has deflector and holy shelter up???? :confused:
Since when does resist force make any difference to a good ppu who always has deflector and holy shelter up???? :confused:
When that ppu is debuffed resist force makes all the difference in the world. All the ppu power in the world means nothin when your shelter and deflector are gone and you're bein hit by 5 people at once. With good resists you give yourself an extra few seconds so you have plenty of time to rebuff and heal back the damage done. Also consider the melee boost next patch. It's already stronger then it was before, with my exp psi controller 3 in and the recent melee boost, melee can hurt my hybrid even through holy deflector. I don't doubt with yet another boost, even ppu's holy deflector will be put to the test. Too many ppu's rely too much on their buffs. A good ppu would be prepared to handle situations in which they don't have their buffs on.
As for PA, its worth the negatives by far. If you don't use it then you're relying on skill to make up for the difference. You'd be that much better with skill and PA. Speaking of which, PA4 will be available now with the new psi drugs. Will hafta look into it, I still think PA3 is the best tho.
You could hack without adv nerves 3 on a PPU. I have 189 psi use I could lom to 184 and remove the nerves, the hell I would want to lose another few million int exp though. From that I would lose a tiny amount of ROF on spells, not that important since there is no real high end spell with a critical rof needed, normal rez > than holy rez in alot of combat situations. It would gain me a reflex booster 1 and around 10-15 more points in resist force. A nice increase but certainly one that is live withoutable.
Being able to hack ops and belts? well worth 1-2% of overal total defence ability if it is even that much.
The setup of a character is really the least important part behind it, its all the player behind the characters skill. A monk being able to hack is niether overpowered or a tradeskill gimp.
Eledhbrant
03-05-04, 04:49
Gestra hacks. My PPU Pokes TL 115.
Neither of us wears pa. He goes for a lower dmg shelter and slightly larger pool than me. I cap my heal and get 565% on shelter.
Like Gestra said the PA is *better*, to wear it just plain allows better setups without gimping dmg etc.
BUT I choose NOT to wear it, I enjoy not wearing it, you stand out, look sexy, run so fast, its fun, to me at least :)
On a related note my apu hacks OPs at 103 and is not gimped as long as he has a psi3 (and when i get his last 3 psi levels heh) and has no PA (just for kicks)
Shadow Dancer
03-05-04, 08:11
Too bad atm apus are gimped if they hack, unless they cap int. :rolleyes:
I really dont see a ppu who pokes tl 85 then spy 3 and imp glove to be gimped at all.
I do pretty fine with it, freq is where it is supposed to be if it's not 52/ min on shelter then I can promise the freq gotten is really enough to be very efficiant, so the a ppu with some tradeskilling in there is no good at all vs a uber all "fighting" one is just a load of bullshit. The most important spell when it comes arround is still the heal wich you easily can get 52/min on a 2 slotted heal even. After that the rest of the spells with shelt and def beeing the runnerups.
I got 187 or so psu, 184 ppu I can even use the shit cath sanctum but never do and I got 321 or something mana.
hmm that gives me the idea of loming some mst when I get home..
Eledhbrant
03-05-04, 14:50
Too bad atm apus are gimped if they hack, unless they cap int. :rolleyes:
Sorry but when my apu did wear PA, had a pool of 416, and when he got psi combat 3, he still capped dmg and rof on HL/FA and got 19/min or so on HAB while still hacking OPs
Where's the gimp? The psi3? my apu is only ever used for OP fights or raids, he's never alone because I use other characters to travel alone, tank spy pe. So I dont see him as gimped.
Shadow Dancer
03-05-04, 17:09
Sorry but when my apu did wear PA, had a pool of 416, and when he got psi combat 3, he still capped dmg and rof on HL/FA and got 19/min or so on HAB while still hacking OPs
Where's the gimp? The psi3? my apu is only ever used for OP fights or raids, he's never alone because I use other characters to travel alone, tank spy pe. So I dont see him as gimped.
The gimp is psi3, because it requires another person. So YOU only use your apu for op fight sor raids, that's nice. That doesn't change the fact that you need a ppu to ungimp him. Apus aren't born with ppus attached to them. You could easily say tanks or pes with X setup aren't gimped because they can get a pistol/rifle 3 or a HC3.
slaughteruall
03-05-04, 17:27
The gimp is psi3, because it requires another person. So YOU only use your apu for op fight sor raids, that's nice. That doesn't change the fact that you need a ppu to ungimp him. Apus aren't born with ppus attached to them. You could easily say tanks or pes with X setup aren't gimped because they can get a pistol/rifle 3 or a HC3.
Eled is right a APU that uses a PSI 3 is not gimped as long as they can use there spells (ie. dont need the MST bonus). My APU needed the MST for awhile to much of a gimp) You would be surprised the TANK's that need HC3. I myself prefer melee 3 or the run speed/HLT. Considering i cap all my guns with HC1 (only need HC1 for ROF boost) HC3 is not really worth it to me. Also a lone APU in a OP battle/Raid is not very good anyways unless they are GR camping.
Slaughter
Shadow Dancer
03-05-04, 17:53
As I said, the gimp is requiring the PSI 3.
Not everyone has a ppu up their rectum.
Please stop pretending like skill is everything. PvP is based on both character setup *and* player skill. If you give yourself a handicap in character setup, you can make up for it with extraordinary skill, but that only puts you back at the normal player's level. If you had extraordinary skill and also set your character up correctly, then you would be on a level beyond everyone else.
I admit I have been out of the loop on ppu's capability for a while now, it seems you can take up imp or hack with very minimal loss in ppu power. I don't like that idea at all though. I see an effective ppu tradeskiller as the same as a 50/50 hybrid with holy para and holy lightning. These hybrids made ppu's pretty much useless. They could effectively do everything ppu's could do, and they could also deal damage. A ppu that can get away with tradeskills without gimping himself does the same to spies, making them useless. Maybe we shouldn't have 100 int, maybe it should be taken down to cap at 80. We could get a little more in another stat like str/con/dex to compensate. Spies should be better then monks at tradeskilling, no exceptions.
Shadow Dancer
03-05-04, 19:17
I think monk int should cap at 90, and the 10 points go elsewhere.
Or, kk could make "Tradeskills" much more dependent on dex.
If I was just to make up and grab arbitrary numbers, I would see it as about 80% skill 20% setup. You can have the greatest setup in the world but without skill behind it, its worthless.
The minor tradeskills of hack and poke are not a handicap to start out with, its a myth people still keep thinking.
I fail to see how it over powers though and detracts from spies, You still need them for the hard trade skills of rez and cst, since they need a much larger investment. A ppu with a tradeskill is not a one man killing army like a hybrid, its just a player with varity in his setup that can do more than just fight, its actually adds to the enjoyability of the game. Spies are better trade skillers, My monk will never have more than 105 hack a spy can easily choose to spec more than that if he wished.
PvP is all about player ability and skill and not setup, spells, items. The best items and spells will make a good player better, but he would still be good without them. Where as on an average player they would not do much either way in changing anything.
Eg, For a tank, having an aimbot aim with a CS gives you more of an edge than any con set up. Its just usually skill and good setups go togethor.
You can be a good player without a good set up for sure. But you cant be a good player with a great setup and no ability behind it.
slaughteruall
03-05-04, 19:55
Well since PSU no longer effects your PSI pool like it used to. There is no reason to put everything in it. Just enough to cap or almost cap your spells. My PPU hacks 101 (just put ADV nerves in so need to LOM some). My PPU is shit since i really dont play him that much and still has not capped PSI. If PSU had more to effect the ROF you might see less poke/hack monks. Why on earth would someone over spec PSU there is next to no gain if there is anygain.
Slaughter
Spies should be better then monks at tradeskilling, no exceptions.
They are...
A PPU can hack to about 110 (with spy3) or poke 115 (with spy3 + glove) without any major gimpage, but you're never going to get a PPU who can research to a decent level (or cst) and still be effective in combat.
That said I don't even define hack and poke to be tradeskills...I rate them more like repair and recycle; ie as ancillary combat skills.
If a PPU really wants to go tradeskiller they can, but they're going to take a real hit to their combat skills. I think that's cool, you shouldn't *have* to be a spy to tradeskill, it should just be the best class for it.
This all ties in with my desire for NC classes to be more flexible and less cookie-cutter. The more things you can do the better, within reason. Like a cster stealther tank would be dumb, but a poker PPU seems entirely reasonable to me.
If a PPU really wants to go tradeskiller they can, but they're going to take a real hit to their combat skills. I think that's cool, you shouldn't *have* to be a spy to tradeskill, it should just be the best class for it.
This all ties in with my desire for NC classes to be more flexible and less cookie-cutter. The more things you can do the better, within reason. Like a cster stealther tank would be dumb, but a poker PPU seems entirely reasonable to me.
I agree with you actualy, but that's no how the game is right now. Certain classes have tons of flexibility while other's are very rigid. Tanks are prolly one of the most boring classes because you can't do much with them once capped. PPU's have easily the most variability of any class, which is why I'm still more or less a ppu after a year. But that doesn't mean I want to be able to do everything at once. I could be a researcher if I wanted too, but I'd hafta give up combat abilities. I could be a hybrid, but I hafta give up ppu abilities. That's my idea of flexibility, you can take different paths, but each has ups and downs. I don't like being able to do multiple things at once. I certainly don't like PPU's getting all the attention and having all the options.
Just because you don't see hack/poke as real tradeskills doesn't mean they aren't. That they're undervalued is a problem in the game, not somthing to be expected.
PPUs as tradeskillers are very viable. My old PPU was pure tradeskill. He drove/researched/bartered/poked/repaired. The only thing that hindered him was having to wait for his long buff to wear to switch between tradeskills. Granted he wasnt the best PPU in the world, but I could take him into battle and still be about 50x more effective than a spy of equal skill. Same with hunting. Sure RoF, range, and psi pool were gimped, but my psi spells were still as strong as any other PPU.
My current PPU hacks 90 base with very little impact. Ive still got about 19 int levels and 9 psi levels left to go on him. Im like 3% away from capping shelter % and cap pretty much everything else. My only concern is capping RoF on shelter. Its only 36 with a 120 frequency shelter and it caps at 42 I believe. Hopefully Ill get that with putting the rest of my int into Psi Use and getting enough Psi to wear PA3 (another 4 PPU).
Sure Id LOVE to get rid of that hack and not wear PA. But Im needed too much as a hacker. And keep in mind, as viable as hacking is, even that very small % of loss of needed Psi Use makes me cringe. Ive been a PE too long to know that every single point counts. That one extra point of Psi Use could make the different between life or death. So viable, yes. But tradeskill at your own risk. ;)
I have 330 mana same as you. My spells freq are all capped other then rares. And I have damage capped on all spells other then shelter and spells a few other high tl spells. But even then my holy shelter is still at 560%. So using pa and not is the same as long as you know a little about setting up a ppu ;)
um mega-wtf. how the fudge is that possible. my shelt dmg goes down to 501% w/o pa. my ppu is 168 with pa on iirc (i just tooks screenies too lolz). i have def 2 & def 3 processors as well as psi core and dimension splitter in my brain, yet i can't get near the damage u guys can on shelt. i believe the heal and deflector are capped w/o the pa tho...if not, it's b/c they are both only two slots. granted my dmg on the shelt is only 114% iirc, it's still amazing to have 560% without a pa and still have more mana than i even have right now :(
i was going to put in the exp controller3 in as a substitute for the def. proc. 2 and lom some psw so i can put more points in ppu. would that help? D: i still can't see how four or so more ppu points would get me up near 560% how is it done?! when i replaced two imps as a test, my damage still suxed with the PA on even. grrr u guys must have recieved extra points somehow :P or a crapload of 5 slot spells in the quickbelt O.o
You can have 170-175 ppu easily without wearing PA.
You also have the flip point around 169 for skills.
slaughteruall
03-05-04, 22:09
um mega-wtf. how the fudge is that possible. my shelt dmg goes down to 501% w/o pa. my ppu is 168 with pa on iirc (i just tooks screenies too lolz). i have def 2 & def 3 processors as well as psi core and dimension splitter in my brain, yet i can't get near the damage u guys can on shelt. i believe the heal and deflector are capped w/o the pa tho...if not, it's b/c they are both only two slots. granted my dmg on the shelt is only 114% iirc, it's still amazing to have 560% without a pa and still have more mana than i even have right now :(
i was going to put in the exp controller3 in as a substitute for the def. proc. 2 and lom some psw so i can put more points in ppu. would that help? D: i still can't see how four or so more ppu points would get me up near 560% how is it done?! when i replaced two imps as a test, my damage still suxed with the PA on even. grrr u guys must have recieved extra points somehow :P or a crapload of 5 slot spells in the quickbelt O.o
And every point in PPU after 169 helps out alot.
5 slot holy shelter (hacked from belt shity mods)
5 slot holy heal (my CST'er)
5 slot holy heal sactum (hacked from belt shity mods)
3 slot holy def (more then you need but has my CST's name so it's cool)
4 solt holy group shelt (got from codename)
3 slot holy group def (got from codename)
If your on saturn and want some sloted spells mail my resser IRET_cnst. And i can see what i can do. (depends on faction damn RP).
Slaughter
All i can say is FA and TG need to learn how to mod spells. Even some CM.
Tk keep in mind your shelter isnt capped. Yours is 112, his is probably 120. I'm friggin jealous you cap RoF even without PA on that thing. That makes me want to LoM my hack so bad lol. Whats your Psi Use at? Imo capping RoF on shelter is the pinnacle of a good PPU setup. And keeping in mind you probably cap RoF on most things at 166 PPU, Id say that 182 is definitely too much PPU unless you are a big group shelter/deflect guy. I dont see them in your inventory so I can only assume you arent. If you are keeping the PA Id recommend knocking that number down a bit and dumping those points into PPW. Thatd be a big difference for your psi pool (and remember PPW still adds to damage % anyways just make sure your RoF doesnt take a hit). Also why the 1 extra mental steadiness? Thats an extra point of PPW going to waste. ;)
All i can say is FA and TG need to learn how to mod spells. Even some CM.
its all about the pure handling mods. They rock.
Haha, 5 slots spells. Peh. I currently use a 4 slot holy shelter I refuse to carry the 5 slot one I have after dropping the last 2 of them I had days after getting them each time. 4 is a much luckier number.
I want a 5 slot haz boost though. Anyone selling one on saturn?
Haha, 5 slots spells. Peh. I currently use a 4 slot holy shelter I refuse to carry the 5 slot one I have after dropping the last 2 of them I had days after getting them each time. 4 is a much luckier number.
4 slot ultima is the best way to go. I've never dropped mine and I've had it for about a year.
slaughteruall
03-05-04, 22:20
its all about the pure handling mods. They rock.
Haha, 5 slots spells. Peh. I currently use a 4 slot holy shelter I refuse to carry the 5 slot one I have after dropping the last 2 of them I had days after getting them each time. 4 is a much luckier number.
I want a 5 slot haz boost though. Anyone selling one on saturn?
Yeah i remember when that happened. Sorry no 5 slot haz but i do have a 4 slot rifle/ 3 slot support
Slaughter
Maybe you understand why I'm so anal about my spells now, tk : p And why I keep nagging you to get some real ones built. On one hand I guess it's nice to only use 2slot spells at best, cause you don't care if you drop them. But try playing with a 4 slotter and you'll never go back.
Maybe you understand why I'm so anal about my spells now, tk : p And why I keep nagging you to get some real ones built. On one hand I guess it's nice to only use 2slot spells at best, cause you don't care if you drop them. But try playing with a 4 slotter and you'll never go back.
Ya for anarchy zones i use just two slot crap who cares but for op's i pull out the good ones.
so jest, which imp do you recommend? the exp cont3 or the ppu2 ? as for my psu...i believe it's a little below 200. i've taken sexy carinth's advice in specialization :) and my extra mst point will stay there until i get more exp to lom w/o a loss of lvl D:
i'd like to thank that sexy obtuse Angle known as Glyc. he const'ed my four slott shelt. and indeed, it is quite sexy. it's a shame i couldn't ultimate it..oh well. as u said car, i'm addicted to its capped cast rate :) it's nice to regain the shelt after being debuffed. with like < 40 freq, it's a pain in the arse with misscasts and such.
They are...
A PPU can hack to about 110 (with spy3) or poke 115 (with spy3 + glove) without any major gimpage, but you're never going to get a PPU who can research to a decent level (or cst) and still be effective in combat.
That said I don't even define hack and poke to be tradeskills...I rate them more like repair and recycle; ie as ancillary combat skills.
If a PPU really wants to go tradeskiller they can, but they're going to take a real hit to their combat skills. I think that's cool, you shouldn't *have* to be a spy to tradeskill, it should just be the best class for it.
This all ties in with my desire for NC classes to be more flexible and less cookie-cutter. The more things you can do the better, within reason. Like a cster stealther tank would be dumb, but a poker PPU seems entirely reasonable to me.
Research and constructor spies generally gimp themselves for OP wars though. A pistol spy is near useless in an OP war, and a rifle spy is not a great deal better with Silent Hunter. Droners are only really useful when they go pure so they have the WPW to cap their drones.
If you had two hackers, one rifle or pistol spy, and the other a PPU, to choose from for an OP fight, there is no way anyone would take the spy. PPUs don't steal CST/RES from spies, but spies who do CST/REP are not effective at OP wars, whereas the PPU can hack a layer of the OP and is also invaluable for the fight itself.
PPU2 all the way. Just a quick placing of points and implants.
With Ppu2 youd get
214 psi use
170 ppu
88 mst
100 ppw
With exp3 and aiming for the same about of ppw youd get.
219 psi use
166 ppu
88 mst
100 ppw
Youd get +3 psi extra with the setup, but also a whopping -20 resist force.
So yah, if you have a DS there is no reason imo to wear exp3.
Droners are only really useful when they go pure so they have the WPW to cap their drones.
My droner is a living testiment to how wrong that statement is :)
A Droner is best when they combine oblit and high level drones...all this "fight til they find you" stuff I hear from other droners makes me laugh so hard. Fight til they almost find you, drop some revenge on them, then stealth off somewhere else :)
Which is all totally off topic O_o
If you had two hackers, one rifle or pistol spy, and the other a PPU, to choose from for an OP fight, there is no way anyone would take the spy. PPUs don't steal CST/RES from spies, but spies who do CST/REP are not effective at OP wars, whereas the PPU can hack a layer of the OP and is also invaluable for the fight itself.
Indeed. The PPU is a better alround bet...but a force with a good spread of fighters is even better. A pistol or rifle spy can be very effective if used in the right way at the right moment (for example the Executioner is awesomely good at ripping apart hackers). In general I'd take my PPU though, unless our force was already about 50% PPUs.
My droner is a living testiment to how wrong that statement is :)
A Droner is best when they combine oblit and high level drones...all this "fight til they find you" stuff I hear from other droners makes me laugh so hard. Fight til they almost find you, drop some revenge on them, then stealth off somewhere else :)
Which is all totally off topic O_o That's with Oblit. Try taking Obliterator and enough research for E techs, and see how effective your drones are.
Indeed. The PPU is a better alround bet...but a force with a good spread of fighters is even better. A pistol or rifle spy can be very effective if used in the right way at the right moment (for example the Executioner is awesomely good at ripping apart hackers). In general I'd take my PPU though, unless our force was already about 50% PPUs.
Exactly, it's a choice between a class which can might be possibly could be perhaps useful in a unique situation, or your all around can't possibly go to the OP fight without him PPU.
A good spread of fighters isn't much use. The only classes really wanted at OP fights are PPUs, APUs, and Tanks. Maybe one droner, and perhaps a sniper, but they aren't particularly useful and they can't physically hold ground like a Tank can.
oh yeah btw i'm no where near capping int ;/ must...use...advanced nerves.. :(
but i think i'll look in to the exp cont3 replacing the ppu2 but lom some from psw to compensate for the drop of ppu. might have to get that brit glyc biatch back to work cst'in some uber slotted spells too, cause i wanna be a hot non-pa monk with sexy shelter dmg cap/freq cap! :)
i still can't see how the extra 8-6% dmg on the spell makes up for like 60%+ of the spell's skill-based damage... ;/
oh yeah btw i'm no where near capping int ;/ must...use...advanced nerves.. :(
but i think i'll look in to the exp cont3 replacing the ppu2 but lom some from psw to compensate for the drop of ppu. might have to get that brit glyc biatch back to work cst'in some uber slotted spells too, cause i wanna be a hot non-pa monk with sexy shelter dmg cap/freq cap! :)
i still can't see how the extra 8-6% dmg on the spell makes up for like 60%+ of the spell's skill-based damage... ;/
The best non-pa setup is 170 ppu 92 ppw and 88 mst. This setup will get your shelter damage(if it's capped damage) to around 550 to 560% I can't remember. Putting an exp cont 3 in the place of the def 2 is stupid.
Following a bit of experimentation (and loads of LoM pills...I didn't want to cap my int anyway), the only difference I could find between hacking and not hacking to OP level was without the extra psi use I couldn't cap freq on my cath sanctum (7/min with OP level hack).
The impact on mana pool was a little more than I remembered, at about 20 points.
Still not convinced that there's a good case for not hacking, but I'm going to try it for a while, at least until I get my int back to base 90 :D
Also lowered my PPU and raised PPW to give a bigger pool; mostly so I wasn't being totally hypocritical claiming I wanted to be able to ppu a big team, while at the same time having capped spells and low mana :o
I don't know how many seconds faster 10/min is compared to 7/min but if you do use Cath Sanctum, you'll find having a capped rof is wonderful. The time it takes you to cast is your most vulnerable time, I've died quite a few times trying to cast it : ) So minimizing that time can turn a ppu almost unstopable.
Sol, I'm glad you found hack does impair you even a little, I was really beggining to wonder how I could be so wrong. The case can be made that if you don't need the little boost in rof on holy cath, then there's no reason not to pick up hack or imp. But I'm glad to know there is some penalty, even if it is small : )
Eledhbrant
05-05-04, 18:13
I have 85 MST, no cath for me! :)
I have 85 MST, no cath for me! :) Yah I started my PPU on a non-PA setup this week and I think thats what my end goal will be as well. Largely because I hack also, and as the above conversation shows, the main hit of a tradeskill is with Cath RoF. So Ill take the extra 9 points. :) Maybe get some higher % on the stuff I dont cap.
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