View Full Version : Is NC just a big fat cookie cutter collection?
metalangel
27-04-04, 13:38
Well, think about it for a second. The same few levelling spots are always used, the same setups and weapons are always used...
NC has run into the age-old problem of games - that there's one way, The Right Way to do it. If you ignore this you have effectively gimped yourself. Sure you could level in the Swamp Caves but the Chaos Caves are faster!
Granted, some people try to be different but otherwise there's a million CS tanks, a jillion libby and Judge PEs, and so on.
Am I just overreacting, or is this a real problem? What can be done??
its not as bad as it was, the PEs are getting a bit varied, i know a number of earpers, libbiers,judgers,ROLHers and execers so on Pes theres a range of veriety.
for tanks, well CS is still the best option really, sure you can use a ravager, but ive only ever lost to a ravager tank once and in that case it was cos i fucked up
apus ppus are pretty much standard.
and i guess most spies are similar
the PAs make everyone appear same, as theres limited types of PA, if they brough more or allowed color changing on PA etc then more verity would be there.
as for leveling,not everyone levels in chaos, id never leveld my tank inchaos until i was str 99 cons 98, and i never though i was gimpy for not leveling there, i leveled as fast as people who did level in there imo, would of been faster if i didnt hate leveling
The case of Tanks is simple. Look at PEs. You have Lib, Wyatt, Judge, BoH, RoLH, Executioner, and for the extreme, Slasher. All of them viable weapons, all dealing decent amounts of damage.
Now look at Tanks:
SpeedGun drains all your stamina in less than a clip, AoE weapons can't hit shit without being crouched, and even then they hit the floor in front of you. Dev has melee range and doesn't do a great deal of damage, Ravager has good accuracy and only a fair amount of damage, CS is great.
Who in their right mind is going to use anything other than CS? You add Ravager, great, but if it's better than CS, people whine, if it's not as good as CS, then CS is the only one in use.
That's why I keep asking for DB to be direct damage. Make it do only slightly more than Ravager, I don't care, just give me a viable alternative to CS and a reason for the extra 10 STR.
Cruzbroker
27-04-04, 14:01
Spies have variety, but PEs can do pretty much the same, even more because higher defences. So it is PE.
Yeah ive seen a few more PEs, they used to be all libby/judge, save for a few. Now theres more HC PEs, MC PEs, RoG/PEs and a few using SHs.
I agree with the above statements when it comes to the CS, there isnt realy much other choice, i know its a bit silly but itd be cool if we had truly heavy weapons, that u cant move and fire like the big suits in Tribes (cant remeber the names), n e way back to reality, yeah make the DB direct damage just so tanks have a choice, and maybe lower the stam use on a speedy...
Jesterthegreat
27-04-04, 14:21
tanks: MC or HC
lets face it... pistol tanks are fun, but less dex and worse defence than a PE makes them not worth it
Spies: Rifle / Pistol / Drone
again... low str and psi means no APU / MC / HC spies are worth playing
Psis: APU / PPU / Hybrid
they have the dex to use pistols / rifles if they want... a drugged, capped PPU can use a fusion rifle. but why bother? its useless in a fight.
PEs: anything but APU / PPU
obv they can have APU / PPU, but not as a main weapon.
when i started NC i vowed not to play a "wannbe spy", however it seems PE's are the only ones with real variety
metalangel
27-04-04, 14:22
I don't deny it's possible to use stuff like RoLh and Slasher as a PE, I'm just saying it's not very common. It's just hard to get there without hopelessly expensive imps and drugs, and you're left a bit weakened.
Jesterthegreat
27-04-04, 14:25
I don't deny it's possible to use stuff like RoLh and Slasher as a PE, I'm just saying it's not very common. It's just hard to get there without hopelessly expensive imps and drugs, and you're left a bit weakened.
hopelessly expensive?
well... it depends on how long you played. retail launch had sick rare / lvl 3 imp drops, then had no lvl 3 imp drops, then had (semi) rare lvl 3 imp drops.
most old players have entire appartments full of lvl 3 imps.
money is nothing on NC. Caving will get you stupid amounts of money (especially as melee... no ammo costs). drugs are store bought.
hell with an MC5 or 2 PE's can use any dex based weapon without a single drug (iirc)
yeah they can, but atm with every GR help by opposing factions, MC5 closed and me being a lazyt sod, Its difficult for people like me to get my hands on a MC5, tho tbh not impossible...just ALOT of troops or running abit lol.
If i wanted a lvl 3 imp i could get it easy off of a clan mate, or just a mate...and i got some sitting on/in chars i dont use no more i could just rip em out
i'm no cookie cut PE.
:p
I use Mr Pain Easer here
I don't deny it's possible to use stuff like RoLh and Slasher as a PE, I'm just saying it's not very common. It's just hard to get there without hopelessly expensive imps and drugs, and you're left a bit weakened.
not common, nearly every PE i come across now is a ROHL touting PE
i know of a few Pe that were PE PEs, tho afaik they lommed to pistol...there are others but the only one i know the name of atm is me lol....tho ive seen 3-4 others...
i know of a few Pe that were PE PEs, tho afaik they lommed to pistol...there are others but the only one i know the name of atm is me lol....tho ive seen 3-4 others...
i was rifle, went pistol then went melee :)
The answer is, yes :p though my (inactive) PE uses a Pain Easer, or in FN non rares just for fun (5 slot tangent gatlin rifle > all).
pure lowtech tho? :D , and i made a MC PE last night
5 slot TGAT does indeed = ownage :D
Original monk
27-04-04, 14:39
wait till the next TL patch and behold: original monk the plasmrifleweilding, B1-snipering PPUmonk :P ok gimped a bit but nothing that a holy heal cant handle :P
cookie cutters are yust people that are to lazy or dont have enough time to make there own setups ... but are the same ones that will never come up with a crazy new setup :)
the crazier the better aslong as it does its job :P
and about the chaoscaves and the swampcaves ... after killing millions of flying swampcritters, killing thousands of shamans and even more of them small 70/70 and 80/80 ... the only thing you look for is XP ... ya dont look at them mobs nomore :) you yust see xp gliding along :P
and yes, the only place where you get loads of XP, an where its extremely fun to get it (barreling and see the tons of damage fly of is fun yeah) is indeed those chaoscaves ...
shitty game: everything decent is located in the NE-corner ... thats yust asking for abuse ... (graves, mc5, chaoscaves, scorpionpit ..)
..
and about being diffrent ... there arent alot of opportunity's to be diffrent ... with all the same PA's and such ... and a steady amount of prefab chars to choose from ... sucky
..
and if you wonna be diffrent and try for example a kamihybrid .. then he gets nerfed 2 weeks later ... not to mention a copbotrifleweilding spy ... there so cool except mayourly forbidden/illegal ...
and i dont like making every possible kind of PE ... whatever kind you take there all cookiecutter anyway (check the how to make a HC PE thread ... :rolleyes: ) ...
maybe a apuPE or sumthing yeah ... not viable at all, but cool :)
pistoltank i like also :)
well, KK needs to put in a bit more possibilities instead off nerfing every possibility ... but i understand thats due to all the whining here on the forums ... cause its yust not possible that one or another class is a teenyweeny bit better then another one ... cause then ya have 90% of the forum here whining ... MOMMY KK: THOSE HYBRIDS FREEZE ME BWEUK, AND THEY EVEN MANAGE TO KILL ME AFTER BWEUK, AND I WAS ONLY STANDING STILL IN THE MIDDLE OF PP, BAN BAN BAN EXPLOIT EXPLOIT EXPLOIT HAX HAX HAX
NERF ! NERF ! NERF !
pure lowtech tho? :D , and i made a MC PE last night
5 slot TGAT does indeed = ownage :D
I think so, probably not, I think I lommed down to use the DoY Raygun, not sure if I can still use ROG.
However, my first retail Pluto PE, was a Hybrid APU/PPU PE, first to cap PSI, before team EXP, so had zero cookie cutter ability. I remember getting annoyed after capping because Rifles didnt do enough damage heh, and killing warbots/hoverbots with PE APU/PPU ruled.
wait till the next TL patch and behold: original monk the plasmrifleweilding, B1-snipering PPUmonk :P ok gimped a bit but nothing that a holy heal cant handle :P
cookie cutters are yust people that are to lazy or dont have enough time to make there own setups ... but are the same ones that will never come up with a crazy new setup :)
the crazier the better aslong as it does its job :P
and about the chaoscaves and the swampcaves ... after killing millions of flying swampcritters, killing thousands of shamans and even more of them small 70/70 and 80/80 ... the only thing you look for is XP ... ya dont look at them mobs nomore :) you yust see xp gliding along :P
and yes, the only place where you get loads of XP, an where its extremely fun to get it (barreling and see the tons of damage fly of is fun yeah) is indeed those chaoscaves ...
shitty game: everything decent is located in the NE-corner ... thats yust asking for abuse ... (graves, mc5, chaoscaves, scorpionpit ..)
..
and about being diffrent ... there arent alot of opportunity's to be diffrent ... with all the same PA's and such ... and a steady amount of prefab chars to choose from ... sucky
..
and if you wonna be diffrent and try for example a kamihybrid .. then he gets nerfed 2 weeks later ... not to mention a copbotrifleweilding spy ... there so cool except mayourly forbidden/illegal ...
and i dont like making every possible kind of PE ... whatever kind you take there all cookiecutter anyway (check the how to make a HC PE thread ... :rolleyes: ) ...
maybe a apuPE or sumthing yeah ... not viable at all, but cool :)
pistoltank i like also :)
well, KK needs to put in a bit more possibilities instead off nerfing every possibility ... but i understand thats due to all the whining here on the forums ... cause its yust not possible that one or another class is a teenyweeny bit better then another one ... cause then ya have 90% of the forum here whining ... MOMMY KK: THOSE HYBRIDS FREEZE ME BWEUK, AND THEY EVEN MANAGE TO KILL ME AFTER BWEUK, AND I WAS ONLY STANDING STILL IN THE MIDDLE OF PP, BAN BAN BAN EXPLOIT EXPLOIT EXPLOIT HAX HAX HAX
NERF ! NERF ! NERF !
drugs are bad, hmmkay? :wtf:
Original monk
27-04-04, 14:45
drugs are bad, hmmkay? :wtf:
wich doesnt gonna stop me from using em :)
ther not THAT bad :D
Dribble Joy
27-04-04, 14:51
I r not cookie, I'm a ppr/moveon kami judge PE.
I r not cookie, I'm a ppr/moveon kami judge PE.
pfft, you and 500 other ppr/moveon kami judge PE's :p
/me runs + PS GIMME + REP ALMOST @ 50 :p
alot of people are cookie cutters not because they cant b bothered or they choose to use some one elses setup, but because theres not much choise.
If theres say 3 choices and 300 people, then it dont take much of a mathematician (or a good speller it seems) to see that theres problems
EDIT: wait, did i spell that right...? :wtf:
EDIT: wait, did i spell that right...? :wtf:
Mathematician - yes, u spelt it write
I think you were pushing it a bit with the 300 people :p
w00t i r ub4r spllzor dUde *ahem*
n e way...yeah not enough choices...
blame in on specialistion
Original monk
27-04-04, 15:03
blame in on specialistion
think they gonna change that ? or will KK cut in there own wallet by changing specialisation ?
think they gonna change that ? or will KK cut in there own wallet by changing specialisation ?
nah i dont think they will cut there own wallets because there would be more options.
oh hey a viable pistol Tank or rifle tank, or a heavy spy whatever, people would keep there accounts as there chars would be diffrent.
Compare Neocron to other games. You can make anything and there is always a chance to be unique. I'm a lowtech, earp/lib, no PA PE. It's not THAT unique but there are so many skill that I dont think I'm like anyone else on the server. Neocron's setups > all.
If everyone wasnt so worried about Teh Win, I think you would see far less cookie cutter setups.
Its fun and challenging to come up with a new, seldom used setup and then level and PvP with it.
But for those that only care about winning, then of course there will naturally be a "best" setup for that, and thats what people flock to.
And I would bet the ones that only care about winning are also the ones that complain about a lack of content in Neocron... I say that because if you arent so worried about winning, then you will be more open to experiment with less than idea setups, and have more options in Neocron overall.
Why not add a quirk system like in Fallout...little things that dont really affect gaming just make you different, and you onl get a certain number of quirks and if u choose some quirks u cant have others...and if there a large choice then people will have different combinations...
im not saying turn NC into a fallout clone, just using that as a example
another thing that dont help is the TINY choice in clothing and PA skins...
Compare Neocron to other games. You can make anything and there is always a chance to be unique. I'm a lowtech, earp/lib, no PA PE. It's not THAT unique but there are so many skill that I dont think I'm like anyone else on the server. Neocron's setups > all.
I would have to disagree with you there. Most set up's in Neocron will follow the same patter. PE's PSI for instance, will be pretty much identicle from PE to PE, their RC/PC will be roughly the same, and RC PE's will use all their int in Weaponlore. PC can vary, either hack or poke. Resists set ups will follow a general pattern, armour will invariably follow the same patter.
Now look at AO, where the choice of armour/weapons is bewildering. However, even though there are 5000000 different types of armour, people invariably want, one type, because one sort will always be better than another (I think its Tara, dragon armour).
So the problem really is endemic of all MMORPG's, unless things become unique to you, then cookie cutters will be generic.
not all RC PE use their Int in WL, i got 144 WL and 100 hack, and im 1% from capping on aiming (rest capped).
But any way, the same on Project Entropia hundreds of different armours, but everyone wants Shadow, Eon or Chronicle. And EvE, tons of ships but there 2-4 that stand out (Megathon iirc is one of them...(for combat that is))
You need to have more than 1 that is the best inorder to encourage divergance, granted in NC there are different paths, RC, PC, MC, HC but each of these paths pretty much endd in 1 or 2 ways...
for instance MC could have another weapon that is pretty much as powerful as a DG but instead of TC it uses summink else...HC maybe (A BIG AXE :D). And HC give people an option other than the CS, atm the most obvious is making the DG non-AOA, but there re others
Aziraphale
27-04-04, 16:40
*shrug* I don't think it's too bad, it will always be the way that people try to build the perfect setup for PvP, but personally I'm not too bothered by it as i dont PvP much, this gives me a lot more space to play around with my skills.
Yah I for one think specialization is a problem. The only setup type thats really varied is pistols because they have so many choices. Rifles are sorta varied. My main problem with NC setups is actually monks.
Look at spell casters for other games. Some MMOs have hundreds of equally viable spells. Everquest has TONS, UO had a bunch, etc... Yet look at the monks in NC. APUs pretty much just use the same 2 or 3 attacks. Its mainly just Holy Lightning though some use FA or a poison beam occasionally. And PPUs all pretty much have the same inventory. There isnt depth to the spells like I wish there was. You could add so many cool spells to this game. Levitation spells, summoning spells, status effect spells, invisibility spells, etc... A lot of people are dissapointed by the lack of choice.
Btw I'm not advocating for monks to get all sort of cool stuff while the other classes are left with nothing, I think there are tons of features that could be added to every class to make things less cookie cutter. All you have to do is a add a really fun item to the game that requires slight alteration of skill. Add something in the game that say requires the sacrifice of a few PC points, but then make that item hard to turn down for entertainment purposes. Now watch the setups go different ways. Add a few items like that and now you have tons of different setups.
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