View Full Version : [brainport] Make clans pay for OP's.
This certainly isn't a new idea, but old idea's are generally some of the greatest.
Alright, we all know that as it stands now, OP's provide money to the holding clan. While not really a large amount, I think the principle is borked.
Solution: Make clans pay per day to hold an OP. The money would be deducted from the clan money pool, and the amount would differ based on what type of OP it is. Simply change the '+ x-money per x-time stat' on the OP's to '- x-money per x-time'.
What would this do?
1.) Force clans to be more active in making money, so as they can pay for these outposts. Large clans with alot of OP's will have to go and be sure to get alot of their members hunting or somehow bringing in money to pay for their OP network.
This lone principle would do alot of things to stabalize the ingame economy. It would be a large cash sink, and since players would be forced to hunt more to build their cash cache in order to maintain control of specific grounds... More things like tech parts and upper tier implants would find their way on to the market.
2.) Gives other clans a fighting chance on getting bonuses. As it stands now, the OP system works on a 'get and forget' standard. One clan gets it, and forgets about it until someone attacks it. In most cases, the things like OP bonuses are completely forgotten and unused. Imagine SMALL CLAN X with 5 people on, there's no way in hell they can compete against BIG CLAN X... However, say there's the off chance that a number of BIG CLAN X's chief financial supporters have been offline recently and the cash pool trickles down to a point where they can't support all their OP's... Boom, some of them go unclaimed. Now SMALL CLAN X can go take it and make a stand whileas BIG CLAN X can't really go and do anything about it until more money is tossed into their fund.
Depending on the size and active population of the clan, you'd also see boundries form. It wouldn't be Prudent for BIG CLAN X to take all of the map, because of that, BIG CLAN A, B, MIDDLE SIZED CLAN A, B, SMALL CLAN X, A, B decide to take up OP's. Those groups can now pick at eachothers properties.
While small clans would still be disadvantaged with this system since in most cases they don't have the same financial abilities as bigger clans; I beleive you'd see a break down of larger clans to form more medium sized clans. The finicial OP limiter would cause more general irratation among the members of large clans and you'd see the sheep start to leave the flock.
3.) Peridically you'd see abandoned property. I think this would do alot to add to the atmosphere of the wastelands in general. I mean, not all outposts in the 'Wild West' were inhabited all the time. You had towns disappear only to reappear when a new financial organization moved in to back 'em.
4.) I think that abandoned property should have no vendors and no active gogo/cityterm. This would force the players in the area to search out things like non OP gogo's (since they do exist) and street hawkers and the like to buy things like ammo and medkits. Right now they're vastly underused because there's no neccessity. Inactive OP's would create the necessity for players to seek them out - since they're always in interesting places, I think the player might just enjoy using them more.
Now, I don't know how easy it would be to do something like this... I don't know if something like this is going to happen, but I think it would certainly make the world a more interesting place.
If you're not sure, please don't vote until you are sure of your stance.
@kk peoples - if something similar is going to happen, disregard this... If something isn't, give this some thought.
:p
Hmmm interesting :)
I quite like the idea, would certainly make the OP situation more alive I think.
Nice work.
I think it could be a good addition to the game. The tough part would be in setting the expense of holding an Op; too little and it renders the whole idea moot to begin with. Perhaps the expense is a factor of how many members there are in a clan, the more there are the more expensive, and the fewer the cheaper. Ideally it would make any clan think hard about - and maybe reconsider - whether they *really* want to hold more than one Research Op (for example), given the daily cost.
The scheme would be successful if it was a meaningful financial force that caused most clans to never really want to hold more than one Op of each type, although they *could* hold more if they are a wealthy clan with members who actively build up funds to maintain their extended holdings.
Spook
I honestly think this is one of those ideas that would have been needed to have been coded in from the very start for it to work successfully.
I doubt very much that a clan that holds lots of OPs would be willing to get rid of them at this point, after owning them for so long. However, I do agree with you. You should definitely have to pay for the services that come with it.
absolutely against it. Sure bonuses are nice but my main concern with getting ops is the income. I'd rather have ops that don't give any bonus but give money rather than having to PAY to have a bonus.
Shadow Dancer
27-04-04, 06:26
I love the idea. 5 star
Dribble Joy
27-04-04, 07:17
absolutely against it. Sure bonuses are nice but my main concern with getting ops is the income. I'd rather have ops that don't give any bonus but give money rather than having to PAY to have a bonus.
So.. you want tou be paid for recieving a service?
This is an old idea and could solve a lot of the problems seen in the current OP situations especially with the 'OMG WE RZ RUL0RZ T3H WOLRD!!!!111' mentality of the bigger clans.
Thay could at least test it.
not a good idea... when i go out to take 20+ ops i really wanna get paid....
lets face it.... ops are useless but the cash is kinda nice
100% for it.
Make factories and labs cost ~10-15k nc per RL hour to operate. Clans should not get paid to hold facilities they don't utilize, the tradeskill bonuses are quite enough. OOOO :D Maybe they could even work a bit of diplomacy into the game by relaxing the 3 hack/hacker rules at production facilities to enable smoother transfers!
Fortresses should continue to pay a prestige reward for holding them, this would at least partially offset the "costs" of operating production facilities. This will direct the primary op fighting to the fortresses!
Uplinks are special use, I'm not sure how to handle them, maybe they are "overhead-neutral" and don't cost anything to operate.
On the other hand, does anyone even build at a factory or research at a lab anymore?
Just rambling, it's kind of late here :D
/edit I'd like to see factory and lab bonuses be slightly more tangible e.g. labs let you research at 1.5x normal time and factories guarantee 1 slot at least on builds...that kind of thing.
not a good idea... when i go out to take 20+ ops i really wanna get paid....
lets face it.... ops are useless but the cash is kinda nice
Since a clan is a subdivision of the faction you work for, perhaps you should look towards your clan leaders if you want a paycheck.
;)
Nobody would take ops at all then, the bonuses they give really aren't worth paying for. As said already the only reason clans take ops is because they give you money.
EDIT: Also you brought up that a clan is a subdivision of your faction, couldn't getting paid for ops be considering getting paid by your faction for holding ops for them. I mean really you don't get any cash from your faction otherwise except doing little missions, that aren't worth doing unless you want your gay rank up.
Dribble Joy
27-04-04, 08:05
The cost (or rather 'rent'/up-keep), could be lessened by offering services.
Open GRs and a small amount of money is given to the clan when they are used.
Gogu? 100nc per use?
A small percentage of item cost at vendors also goes to the owner, the owner could set wheter vendors traded with cirtain factions, like turrets.
Mob kills? Removing troublesome beasties from the local area and the clan gets a slice?
//edit
Nobody would take ops at all then, the bonuses they give really aren't worth paying for. As said already the only reason clans take ops is because they give you money.
Make the bonuses worth something, like various essential items prohibitively expensive in shops, and make OPs produce them, securing trade for the clan.
Data disks from Labs, materials from mines, cirtain item parts from factories and fortresses making ammo and medkits?
It's a great idea.
If anything we need money sinks in this game and this may be the solution to our problems.
Only problem you have is Clans who are mega rich anyway and the fact that clans would actively churn out Troop Carrier keys in order to finance their empires.
But 5 stars from me because I feel it would work.
naw i dont think ppl would bother fighting for em
Sure if this was just part of a whole reworking of the op system it might be good, but just this idea on the current system won't work.
I think it's a great idea. This will stop big clans who already have half the map for taking even more since there is no use. This gives other clans the chance to own something. Because right now, big clans want to own everything and won't give smaller clans a chance. Smaller clans just want the OP for the bonuses.
Nope no thanks, Shadowbane absolutely stunk with the maintenance of cities... I can't imagine having to farm credits every day to maintain an OP... I say wait until the new supposed reworked OP wars that they have in plan for DoY and see how it changes things.
Maybe not money. But the PS idea might work (Don't shoot me). So you would had to power your ops with oil (maybe, there are oilpumps in the desert) and you would need to deliver this oil to the ops with vehicles.
This way a clan has to be active to support their ops and it also gives a new way to take ops: Attack the supply convoys. (Make their location information hackable and the trucks slow and so on and so on).
Alright, we all know that as it stands now, OP's provide money to the holding clan. While not really a large amount, I think the principle is borked.
Thatīs the main reason people want the ops..
you seldom see people at OPs unless they are there to attack.
Money is the prime factor.
Solution: Make clans pay per day to hold an OP. The money would be deducted from the clan money pool, and the amount would differ based on what type of OP it is. Simply change the '+ x-money per x-time stat' on the OP's to '- x-money per x-time'.
Not all servers have extreme money amounts.
And what if you donīt want an OP ? you cant get rid of it, unlessīyou either let it eat all your money, or take all money out of clan, and risk getting labeled as a thief.
And I donīt think anyone would bother with OPs if you have to pay for them.
A thing like this, would eliminate all battle from the game.
I think that would lead to a lot more n00b ganking.
What would this do?
1.) Force clans to be more active in making money, so as they can pay for these outposts. Large clans with alot of OP's will have to go and be sure to get alot of their members hunting or somehow bringing in money to pay for their OP network.
Read above.
This lone principle would do alot of things to stabalize the ingame economy. It would be a large cash sink, and since players would be forced to hunt more to build their cash cache in order to maintain control of specific grounds... More things like tech parts and upper tier implants would find their way on to the market.
As said, not all servers have fucked up economy.
2.) Gives other clans a fighting chance on getting bonuses. As it stands now, the OP system works on a 'get and forget' standard. One clan gets it, and forgets about it until someone attacks it. In most cases, the things like OP bonuses are completely forgotten and unused. Imagine SMALL CLAN X with 5 people on, there's no way in hell they can compete against BIG CLAN X... However, say there's the off chance that a number of BIG CLAN X's chief financial supporters have been offline recently and the cash pool trickles down to a point where they can't support all their OP's... Boom, some of them go unclaimed. Now SMALL CLAN X can go take it and make a stand whileas BIG CLAN X can't really go and do anything about it until more money is tossed into their fund.
Actually small clan, canīt even PAY for the OP.
Depending on the size and active population of the clan, you'd also see boundries form. It wouldn't be Prudent for BIG CLAN X to take all of the map, because of that, BIG CLAN A, B, MIDDLE SIZED CLAN A, B, SMALL CLAN X, A, B decide to take up OP's. Those groups can now pick at eachothers properties.
^^
While small clans would still be disadvantaged with this system since in most cases they don't have the same financial abilities as bigger clans; I beleive you'd see a break down of larger clans to form more medium sized clans. The finicial OP limiter would cause more general irratation among the members of large clans and you'd see the sheep start to leave the flock.
I donīt think so...I really donīt
3.) Peridically you'd see abandoned property. I think this would do alot to add to the atmosphere of the wastelands in general. I mean, not all outposts in the 'Wild West' were inhabited all the time. You had towns disappear only to reappear when a new financial organization moved in to back 'em.
That would be great (make nearby mobs attack OPs at random times a day instead....)
4.) I think that abandoned property should have no vendors and no active gogo/cityterm. This would force the players in the area to search out things like non OP gogo's (since they do exist) and street hawkers and the like to buy things like ammo and medkits. Right now they're vastly underused because there's no neccessity. Inactive OP's would create the necessity for players to seek them out - since they're always in interesting places, I think the player might just enjoy using them more.
....
Now, I don't know how easy it would be to do something like this... I don't know if something like this is going to happen, but I think it would certainly make the world a more interesting place.
I think itīs great that you take your time, to explain your ideas,
but I just donīt think this is good for the game.
I'm half for it. Just because I don't like the original idea, doesn't mean I think it has to be totally scrapped. *cough* ;)
Go half way. Hold 1 OP, you get an income from it. Hold 2 or 3, you get a bit less, but still some (you have to keep those OPs supplied but they can just about pay for themselves). Call 4 the breaking point. 4 OPs, you get no income, and no cost. As you get 5+ OPs, you start paying for them. You've got to pay to keep those OPs supplied, and 2 factories doesn't provide any bonus over 1 factory.
This way, small clans still benefit from holding OPs, and it encourages people to still actually hold them, but taking the whole map in a ninja hack overnight or colleecting every half decent PvPer on the server into one clan results in a penalty.
Jesterthegreat
27-04-04, 14:15
no.
op's are almost pointless as it is... if i was a clan leader, and i had to pay for an op that gives +hack in 1 zone... i wouldnt bother :lol:
naw i dont think ppl would bother fighting for em
your wrong, people dont fight for OPs now cause they give money, or cause of their bonuses, they do it for two reasons, GR control and bragging rights, why else would a clan want 6 factories?
people would still fight for the crucial ones, which would leave the other ones for the smaller type clans who want to be able to have some part in the OP world
love the idea, implement this shit!
Hell no, do you know what it costs in turrets and blood to hold an op?
When people go op fighting they ususualy end up with wrecked armors, implants that popped etc.....
The gr rules are not ideal i know, but having to pay to hold an op is nonsense.
Hell no, do you know what it costs in turrets and blood to hold an op?
When people go op fighting they ususualy end up with wrecked armors, implants that popped etc.....
The gr rules are not ideal i know, but having to pay to hold an op is nonsense.
hardly nonsense.....it really makes sense, these people are exploiting the OPs for all they are worth, and not putting anything back into them, they are constantly battling inside and outside the OP walls, shooting rockets at the towers, lightning strikes, torching the fields with fire barrels....someone needs to pay to keep them in the most upstanding condition or the walls will crumble and there will be no OPs :p
do you think anyone is doing exactly what were doing at this very moment? I hope so otherwise what in the hell are we trying to save. cheese!
The gr rules are not ideal i know, but having to pay to hold an op is nonsense.
Not ideal ? They are fucking annoying as hell. Lately I haven't been able to GR even allied chars through any of the GR's, because everyone keeps fucking locking them to their own faction and won't ever let anyone else through. (Or can you lock it to only clan too? Don't think so but not sure)
(Or can you lock it to only clan too? Don't think so but not sure)
yea but I think that was the setting that was bugged to where it was GR All instead of just GR clan only heh
I dont see why people dont just leave it on GR all, I mean all it is in a minor inconveinence....
OP integrity is not affected by this in the least, there are becoming a few GRs like elfarid, battle dome that make it a tad easier to get around the wastes....its just a bit easier to get around for those less fortunate to not have that 18 hours a day to play....sucks when I want to get some leveling in, and i spend my hour I have to play running, getting to where i need to go, getting gangbanged by like 10 people and having to log, outta time.....
sir retail
27-04-04, 15:32
no.. i dont think clans should pay for an OP.
they should even ern money for keeping an OP.
than ppl would try to hack them much more.
becouse you get money for having one ppl will also try harder to hold it..
just pay a clan a percentage of the generep price..
just an idea. O_o
Yeah its a good idea especially since it would encourage clans to keep GRs open to help recoup the cost of holding to OP.
It would also discourage the one clan taking all the OPs lameness that seems to blight most if not all servers.
@Naimex
What happened to the hardened 'we fight to fight' players? If anything, this would make for more people to take positions on the map, sure the groups would not hold as many OP's as they do now, but one group might be more willing to defend it if they pay for it. OP battles as they stand now are done if the majority feels like it... And then afterwards they can always ninja it back.
Yes, all servers have alot of money. They do because there are so many ways to earn money, and not enough ways to spend it.
Smalls clans could pay for OP with this system, they would just have to work for it. My small clan has *alot* of excess money... I know I would be able to pay for an OP or two with ease based on my clans income.
but taking the whole map in a ninja hack overnight or colleecting every half decent PvPer on the server into one clan results in a penalty.But is that a bad thing?
=/
no.
op's are almost pointless as it is... if i was a clan leader, and i had to pay for an op that gives +hack in 1 zone... i wouldnt bother :lol:You say that now, but how will it factor into hacknet in the future?
In all honesty, I see uplinks becoming the most commonly used OP in the future.
your wrong, people dont fight for OPs now cause they give money, or cause of their bonuses, they do it for two reasons, GR control and bragging rights, why else would a clan want 6 factories?
people would still fight for the crucial ones, which would leave the other ones for the smaller type clans who want to be able to have some part in the OP worldPretty much.
Hell no, do you know what it costs in turrets and blood to hold an op?
When people go op fighting they ususualy end up with wrecked armors, implants that popped etc.....
The gr rules are not ideal i know, but having to pay to hold an op is nonsense.So who pays the vendors? Who pays for the electricity?
I know that OP's don't really cost much in terms of blood or turrets - depending on the OP. If I wanted to take Ceres mine with my tradeskill clan, I don't think anyone would even try to oppose me... I would take it, use it, only to later find it had been ninja'd back.
No blood, turrets, implants wrecked or armor popped.
The reason those things happen to you and perhaps your group is because you go to OP's looking for a fight. If you don't get one after taking one, you take another, etc. You don't take the OP's for the money, or the bonuses, you take them to fight.
You can still do that, and in fact, chances are you'd get a fight at the very first OP you go after.
no.. i dont think clans should pay for an OP.
they should even ern money for keeping an OP.
than ppl would try to hack them much more.
becouse you get money for having one ppl will also try harder to hold it..
just pay a clan a percentage of the generep price..
just an idea. o_ONo they don't make people keep after them more, because there's no bad side to whats happening. "Oh no, we just lost grant, looks like we aren't getting a piddly amount of money today... Good thing INSERT NAME X and INSERT NAME Y did the graves run, made a hell of a lot of money."
However, imagine "Oh no, grants first layer is down, we paid for it - lets move."
Just remember, Clans do get money now for owning OP's... And in most cases you have the one or two large clans who monopolize the map... Clans who don't even need the income because they have so many members who contribute, or at least can contribute. The argument that these groups *need* the income is truly asinine and laughable... Especially seeing as most of these large clans have a hardened backbone of powerplayers.
Since I am in a clan that no longer active holds OPs.
I for one think this is a most excellent idea.
Its sheer genuis and really should be impliment straightaway.
It has some good concepts but overall I'm not for it. I personally could care less about the money from holding ops though I can understand why some people are for. But when I read your idea I thought it would be cool to let other clans have and hold ops instead of only a few clans.
I think Scikar was on with his idea of a gradual decrease of benefit. I cant remember what the exact benefit rate it but lets say its 10k per day and use the examples below.
Ops Held Grand Total per day earned
1 10k per day
2 20k per day
3 10k per day
4 5k per day
5 0k per day
6 -5k per day
7 -10k per day
8 -15k perday
Etc...
I think that system would be VERY cool. Because it wouldnt punish people for having ops, only for holding many ops. Now itd be hard to find a valid roleplaying reason for the above, but then again, whens the last time anything in the game did? :p
(I voted no but still rated the thread high ;))
i think a op should b a reward not a tax....we fight hard for these and we should get money for them as we do now.
@Naimex
What happened to the hardened 'we fight to fight' players? If anything, this would make for more people to take positions on the map, sure the groups would not hold as many OP's as they do now, but one group might be more willing to defend it if they pay for it. OP battles as they stand now are done if the majority feels like it... And then afterwards they can always ninja it back.
Yes, all servers have alot of money. They do because there are so many ways to earn money, and not enough ways to spend it.
Smalls clans could pay for OP with this system, they would just have to work for it. My small clan has *alot* of excess money... I know I would be able to pay for an OP or two with ease based on my clans income.
Donīt get me wrong, I love to fight.
But I know for one, my clan doesnīt run around making millions
We donīt camp all sort of leveling spots, or farm parts and shit.
We keep what we collect, and make them into full rares, and sometimes we do sell, but most things we keep.
If we were strong enough to take OPs atm, we would.
but a clan with 2 players who knows how to PvP is not worth shite in a war.
We have less than 1 million at all times.
So unless OPs are to become only for clans who bother with spending hours making money, or sell their rares, then I donīt think charging money is a viable option.
Sure it would pull out money..
But I have yet to see a clan, that needs an OP bonus so much that they wanna pay to have it.
It has some good concepts but overall I'm not for it. I personally could care less about the money from holding ops though I can understand why some people are for. But when I read your idea I thought it would be cool to let other clans have and hold ops instead of only a few clans.I honestly don't think clans hold OP for the money. Sure, that's a blanket reason they can go and toss out, but the amount of income surely doesn't cover the losses you sustained in fighting for, and keeping the OP. In an hour of hunting I could probably net some parts that would get me more money than I would get by holding OP's for a day.
Diminishing returns in my opinion, are moot - because big clans would still monopolize the map because they would be *able* to take those losses easily. OP's are about fighting, bragging rights and ego. Anyone who says differently is either a tradeskiller or a liar.
i think a op should b a reward not a tax....we fight hard for these and we should get money for them as we do now.Don't lie. You don't fight hard to get them.
Hell, I could probably go on Pluto right now and take 2 or 3 of the outlying FF OP's before they'd even bother responding. I bet one could do that to any of the large clans on any of the servers.
Take the OP's that don't matter to them, and they don't care - why? Because they just hold them for the sake of holding them. Its a show of power and force, and it inflates the ego of the group. However, go after a clans "Primary OP's" and they'll attack you outright.
You see? In the change I propose, the group would no doubt hold its primary OP's, and the amount spent for their upkeep would probably be trivial... More people would come on the map... More people would attempt to take those OP's... More fights would ensue.
I hardly see how providing a much needed cash sink along with more reason to fight and defend is a bad thing.
edit-
Donīt get me wrong, I love to fight.
But I know for one, my clan doesnīt run around making millions
We donīt camp all sort of leveling spots, or farm parts and shit.
We keep what we collect, and make them into full rares, and sometimes we do sell, but most things we keep.
If we were strong enough to take OPs atm, we would.
but a clan with 2 players who knows how to PvP is not worth shite in a war.
We have less than 1 million at all times.
So unless OPs are to become only for clans who bother with spending hours making money, or sell their rares, then I donīt think charging money is a viable option.
Sure it would pull out money..
But I have yet to see a clan, that needs an OP bonus so much that they wanna pay to have it.Seeing as price hasn't even been discusses (for just this reason), I think your argument about payment is moot.
And we don't know what changes to the system DoY has in store for us - it might make OP's a valuable item for tradeskillers... Who knows? Because we sure as hell aren't being told whats done.
Hmmm good points. I guess my only concern about the system is that holding some ops would be worthless. But maybe thats the advantage of the system.
Actually the more I think about it the more I like it. Doesn't the clan get a % of the money for people that GR in? In that way, even though it costs credits for clans to hold ops, they can still get a net gain by opening up their ops to all. To not incur loss, that would make a bunch of clans open up their ops to all and would create a much more open GR environment. This would also create more of a fight for the ops that people actually go to. The GR heavy ops like Cycrow (or Soliko when Mc5 reopens) would be key ops to hold.
The main selling point of the suggestion is that it would force clans to not own the entire map. It pisses me off when clans do that. Just last night it was like 6pm pacific and my clan looked at our enemies numbers to see if we could get a fight. Not a single enemy clan had more than 3 on, and yet most of those clans have over 5 and some 10 ops. Stuff like that is what makes me like the suggestion so much. Because if there is no penalty to holding ops then a clan could just hold as many as they want, which most do.
So, meh, I guess I change my vote to yes. Unfortunately it doesnt matter if this thread got 100% votes yes, I dont think anything we suggest will be implemented at this stage in the game. We are lucky to get any retail patches at all methinks.
I saw the main selling point of this idea as being a semi-realistic means of hindering a clan (or a few clans) from owning most of the map - which would be preferable to programming in a fixed rule of some sort that made no sense reality wise. After all, it costs gobs of cash to maintain any kind of facility in real life, and you only get income from a facility if other people come and pay money to use its services, buy its products, or lease some space.
So to counter the costs of ownership (and support the idea of income from other people), lets say that 50% of the costs are covered if the owning clan has the GR set for full public access - and on top of that they also get GR fees ... all of which encourages clans to leave GRs open (instead of them being mostly closed like on Pluto); this hopefully re-introduces freedom of movement across the wastelands again. Perhaps there is a 25% coverage of costs if the GR is set to just Faction Only. Whats the logic behind the cost coverage? Why, its Yo's!!! They are paying leasing fees to have shops in your Ops, the more open the access the more they are willing to pay, but as you shut down access restricting who can get to the Op they pay less ... and whatever they *do* pay you helps to reduce your daily expenses for holding the Op.
As for holding Ops for the cash? Might be the reason for some of you perhaps, but me, i been in various Op fighting clans since retail and we never once cared about the cash - we took and held Ops because of the skill bonuses, or for the hell of it as a prestige factor, or to thumb our noses at the badguys. So it sort of depends on the particular clan and its motives.
I dont think anything we suggest will be implemented at this stage in the game.
Yep, you are probably right, but if we keep posting ideas and adding commentary, maybe at some point we'll get lucky - an idea will catch a developer's eye and maybe get implemented somewhere along the line.
Spook
This certainly isn't a new idea, but old idea's are generally some of the greatest.
Alright, we all know that as it stands now, OP's provide money to the holding clan. While not really a large amount, I think the principle is borked.
Solution: Make clans pay per day to hold an OP. The money would be deducted from the clan money pool, and the amount would differ based on what type of OP it is. Simply change the '+ x-money per x-time stat' on the OP's to '- x-money per x-time'.
What would this do?
1.) Force clans to be more active in making money, so as they can pay for these outposts. Large clans with alot of OP's will have to go and be sure to get alot of their members hunting or somehow bringing in money to pay for their OP network.
This lone principle would do alot of things to stabalize the ingame economy. It would be a large cash sink, and since players would be forced to hunt more to build their cash cache in order to maintain control of specific grounds... More things like tech parts and upper tier implants would find their way on to the market.
2.) Gives other clans a fighting chance on getting bonuses. As it stands now, the OP system works on a 'get and forget' standard. One clan gets it, and forgets about it until someone attacks it. In most cases, the things like OP bonuses are completely forgotten and unused. Imagine SMALL CLAN X with 5 people on, there's no way in hell they can compete against BIG CLAN X... However, say there's the off chance that a number of BIG CLAN X's chief financial supporters have been offline recently and the cash pool trickles down to a point where they can't support all their OP's... Boom, some of them go unclaimed. Now SMALL CLAN X can go take it and make a stand whileas BIG CLAN X can't really go and do anything about it until more money is tossed into their fund.
Depending on the size and active population of the clan, you'd also see boundries form. It wouldn't be Prudent for BIG CLAN X to take all of the map, because of that, BIG CLAN A, B, MIDDLE SIZED CLAN A, B, SMALL CLAN X, A, B decide to take up OP's. Those groups can now pick at eachothers properties.
While small clans would still be disadvantaged with this system since in most cases they don't have the same financial abilities as bigger clans; I beleive you'd see a break down of larger clans to form more medium sized clans. The finicial OP limiter would cause more general irratation among the members of large clans and you'd see the sheep start to leave the flock.
3.) Peridically you'd see abandoned property. I think this would do alot to add to the atmosphere of the wastelands in general. I mean, not all outposts in the 'Wild West' were inhabited all the time. You had towns disappear only to reappear when a new financial organization moved in to back 'em.
4.) I think that abandoned property should have no vendors and no active gogo/cityterm. This would force the players in the area to search out things like non OP gogo's (since they do exist) and street hawkers and the like to buy things like ammo and medkits. Right now they're vastly underused because there's no neccessity. Inactive OP's would create the necessity for players to seek them out - since they're always in interesting places, I think the player might just enjoy using them more.
Now, I don't know how easy it would be to do something like this... I don't know if something like this is going to happen, but I think it would certainly make the world a more interesting place.
If you're not sure, please don't vote until you are sure of your stance.
@kk peoples - if something similar is going to happen, disregard this... If something isn't, give this some thought.
:p
god damnit marx i didnt expect you to have such shitty ideas, and yes, its shit, whats the point in having a OP to fight THEN pay for it o_O
god damnit marx i didnt expect you to have such shitty ideas, and yes, its shit, whats the point in having a OP to fight THEN pay for it o_OTo pay for its upkeep. Hell, in Dark Age you fight and pay for outposts... It works marvelously. The difference here is the outposts actually give bonuses, which makes them more important than the DAoC models - which are there solely to add to a clans e-penis.
Perhaps if people pay for OP's the OP would be taken more seriously - they'd be used more, and the ones which have connections to clans would be fought over more heartily.
You'd also see abandoned OP's periodically, which makes more sense and is more fitting with the 'dense dark post apocolyptic' world which everyone seems to hark back on.
Even if the price for upkeep was the exact opposite of what you get, does it matter? No, its a piddly amount. If your clan can't do something other than sit around in plaza while idling due to boredom, sucks - you'll lose you OP's.
I don't understand why you don't see that this action would do three main things.
1.) MAKE SENSE (Yo's vendors aren't slaves, someone fixes all the broken stuff, etc).
2.) Be a big step in sorting the borked economies on ALL the servers.
3.) Force players to be more active in terms of playing. People who sit around all day in BIG CLAN X are going to complain about boredom because there's no need for them to do anything. Forced upkeep might just force them to go hunting more... Which would keep them busy and possibly entertained while also assisting point number 2.
Dear Sir,
There are various forms of argumentation, four of which are held in the lowest of esteem: Argument by Defamation (in which you say things injurious to a person's reputation), Argument by Denigration (in which you belittle a person maliciously), Argument by Derision (in which you treat with contempt what a person says), and Argument by Vituperation (in which you sling unpleasant words in a person's general direction). None of these four accomplishes much, other than to emphasize the immaturity of the speaker or writer. Should you (in future) wish to demonstrate your wit and your wisdom (and your maturity), then give thought to attempting one of the more acceptable forms of discourse in which one argues constructively: do indeed point out the weaknesses and faults in your opponent's logic, facts, and general knowledge, but do so with the air of a colleague seeking to correct a misguided friend. Better still is to put forth a counter proposal that clearly addresses the issue or problem at hand but with such greater merit that even your honored colleagues will acknowledge your superior intellect. In this way you rise above the petty pitfalls that are often stumbled into by the young and featherheaded.
Spook
[an overly educated old fart who sometimes masquerades as an online gamer]
Copyright (C) 27-April-2004 by Spook, All Rights Reserved
A thought that just occurred to me, which would be a better way to put it.
You, as the clan, pay for the upkeep of the outpost. The payments are used to supply hypothetical things like electricity, staffing, etc...
However, its your job as the owner of the OP to make a profit. If its a factory, use it to make top notch goods, research tons of items more easily if its a lab, etc.
I can own all the property in the world, but will it net me a profit? No, because its just sitting there not being used - however if used correctly it makes for a very large cash flow.
While that doesn't neccesarily work now, it would work very sexily with the NPC vendors.
People complain about grinds in MMoRPGS and you want to introduce another? Farming for credits so you can cover the costs of your OP sounds like a blast :rolleyes: in fact it would be much harder on smaller Clans to keep up with the maintenance than a larger clan.
What about forts? What use are forts now and why would you own one? I can understand adding some flavor to the OPs and the wars and having to maintain them in some fashion would add an interesting aspect... but no grinds no farming please.
One of the main points in your arguments is so that the smaller clans can have a chance, there are other ways to change the OP war system that would give them a chance and heck we don't even know what they have planned, since they are changing the the system.
The only way I could see this working is if they made some OPs make you money and some cost. Mines can make money and what not and maybe add some drilling OPs of some sorts, you have to own a mine and another OP and it would cover the cost of 2 or 3 OPs anymore OPs and you have to start paying out of your own pocket...
If America invaded Canada and took control of several factories or labs, would Canada pay America for it? No, America pays, not just the overhead on the facilities, but also all the troops and equipment needed to take/hold these facilities.
If a clan leaves the GR open, the money from that should even out the cost of the OP (depending on OP location and how much an OP actually costs to hold). Any clan with enough force to take an OP can pay upkeep on it, as long as the members aren't totally lazy. I don't actively try to earn money, and I still have millions, just from hunting an hour or two a day (yes, I have a job and can't play much ... bleh).
A good idea, although I'd prefer the sliding scale so that the first OP or two would make a profit automatically.
Yeah, make the benefits of an Op worthwhile enough and people might be willing to suffer a cost in holding them. Perhaps it is as simple as taking the types we have now and enhancing their value / bonuses ... as someone suggested some types of Ops could have much higher cash payback or provide access to key construction components ultra cheap (mines), some could greatly speed up researching with little to no failures (labs), some could enable you to produce meaningfully higher quality stuff than usual with much higher probability for slots and a minimum of one slot guaranteed (factories), some would greatly enhance offensive and defensive capabilities but also include an owner-use-only vehicle depot (forts), and so on. Boost them enough, and it might [re]inspire major league competition for Ops again.
But by maintaining the notion of cost-of-ownership, it would [hopefully] moderate how many Ops a clan could realitically hold. The alternative of course is to have no controlling mechanism (as is now), or some artificially imposed restriction (such as no more than 5) that has no realistic rationale.
Spook
People complain about grinds in MMoRPGS and you want to introduce another? Farming for credits so you can cover the costs of your OP sounds like a blast :rolleyes: in fact it would be much harder on smaller Clans to keep up with the maintenance than a larger clan.Um... A MMO without grinds is a MMO no one plays. The grinds are what make players play seeing as no one in this game PvP's all the time.
What about forts? What use are forts now and why would you own one? I can understand adding some flavor to the OPs and the wars and having to maintain them in some fashion would add an interesting aspect... but no grinds no farming please.Interesting mobs can easily be added. I personally like Jeriko, since the fort and mutant spawn makes for most excellent newbie hunting.
One of the main points in your arguments is so that the smaller clans can have a chance, there are other ways to change the OP war system that would give them a chance and heck we don't even know what they have planned, since they are changing the the system.But what other way would also work towards stabilization of the economy and force the players to play to keep what they want?
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Forcing people to pvm would be much more annoying then anything, I hate pvming more then anything else in neocron it is boring and useless once you cap.
I know people somewhere might enjoy farming for hours but I don't think alot of us would enjoy that at all. There are alot of other ways you could limit op taking then this. Moreso the economy and op problems should not be attempted to be solved with the same fix.
Also like I was saying before in the example about usa invading canada that isn't right at all. First off a clan would be more like a platoon and usa would be their faction. The platoon would not pay jack, usa would handle it and they would be paid by the usa for doing their job.
Forcing people to pvm would be much more annoying then anything, I hate pvming more then anything else in neocron it is boring and useless once you cap.So you enjoy sitting around doing nothing?
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Lets just ignore the fact that one hour of hunting could net you enough to sustain many OP's for awhile if the system as it stands now was reversed.
Hence, values would need to be adjusted
I know people somewhere might enjoy farming for hours but I don't think alot of us would enjoy that at all. There are alot of other ways you could limit op taking then this. Moreso the economy and op problems should not be attempted to be solved with the same fix.I simply said this would be a good first step - and don't be mistaken, it would create a more diverse OP field, and it would drain excess money off the market.
Also like I was saying before in the example about usa invading canada that isn't right at all. First off a clan would be more like a platoon and usa would be their faction. The platoon would not pay jack, usa would handle it and they would be paid by the usa for doing their job.That would be a lovely way to describe it if clans actually worked for the factions and had the factions interest in mind. However, they don't.
Anyway, clans are independent organizations, this is shown via the fact that no money or support is forced back to the faction proper and there is no hierarchical support chain which lays down orders for the 'subdivisions' of the faction.
The only reason you can't pvp constantly now is the population, whenever there isn't anybody to fight I always just logged off. I'm sure there are alot of other people who did the same thing and who wouldn't enjoy pvming just to have the cash to pvp.
Also like I said you are trying to fix 2 problems with one solution, I think both problems need to be solved with their own fix instead of a middleway fix.
The only thing that we directly do for the faction is take ops and even though we don't get orders from npcs or fc to do it, it is what the faction has let us make a clan to do. Also considering everyone in the faction gets some of the bonus for the op that is enough for them to pay us for it.
The only reason you can't pvp constantly now is the population, whenever there isn't anybody to fight I always just logged off. I'm sure there are alot of other people who did the same thing and who wouldn't enjoy pvming just to have the cash to pvp.Um, saturn has a halfway decent population - as does jupiter... I don't see people PvPing all the time there.
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4-500 people not enough?
Also like I said you are trying to fix 2 problems with one solution, I think both problems need to be solved with their own fix instead of a middleway fix. It isn't a fix, its a step. A step which would be unique and enjoyable...
Would you rather there be a straightfoward limit on OP's? Or perhaps taxes for players to keep their money in managable qauntaties?
The only thing that we directly do for the faction is take ops and even though we don't get orders from npcs or fc to do it, it is what the faction has let us make a clan to do. Also considering everyone in the faction gets some of the bonus for the op that is enough for them to pay us for it.Wrong.
The only thing you do directly for your faction is kill others for it. This is why the faction you choose sets your alliances.
In regards to faction rent - I would agree if your security setting decided your OP income, since it doesn't... I continue to say the whole process is borked and needs revision. No?
Anyway, I'd say better way to put current faction relations in terms of curent day standards would be NATO and NATO member countries.
NATO provdies universal enemies and allies - however countries within NATO are allowed to spur their own alliances and take military action... Not neccesarily with permission or aid from NATO.
I definetly agree the whole system is wrong and needs reworked, however all I am saying is this idea alone won't work. If this went into play with alot of other reworking to the faction and op system I could see it as a good idea.
Also the reason they let you in the faction is to kill other people and the reason they let you make a clan is for ops.
I wouldn't mind taxes on ops, and the money from using a genrep at the op and so on but straight paying for the op just seems pointless.
As already said the only clans who will bother with ops if they had to pay for them is the same people who own the map already. The big clans will have enough people building and hunting for them that their cash flow isn't a problem and they won't have a problem holding all of the ops as they do now.
I definetly agree the whole system is wrong and needs reworked, however all I am saying is this idea alone won't work. If this went into play with alot of other reworking to the faction and op system I could see it as a good idea.I agree, hence why I've always used the term 'step' in this thread. Using that term infers that this one action would be part of a series of actions which would lead to the eventual solving of an issue or problem.
Also the reason they let you in the faction is to kill other people and the reason they let you make a clan is for ops.I guess the definition of why one can make clans depends on what the clan does. Some people form clans to take OP's, others form them to get a group of like minded people together, others do it for shared economic coverage. None of those reasons is wrong, yet they are all valid reasons to make a clan.
They all would make for properly supported fighters to fight for and defend the faction - yet not all would deal with OP's.
As already said the only clans who will bother with ops if they had to pay for them is the same people who own the map already. The big clans will have enough people building and hunting for them that their cash flow isn't a problem and they won't have a problem holding all of the ops as they do now.Well, based on the people I see voting, most of those voting nay seem to be advocates for some of the bigger clans across the servers - Sure they have the manpower to do it... But will the manpower be willing to do it? For awhile there'd be the passive agressive 'hurr hurr, I no pay OP' mentality, but that would change as those clans who are willing to pay (read: most of the middle sized and small clans) for OP upkeep take their property.
Now, players hunt all the time... Its just now perhaps clans might have to say "toss in money every week", or my personal favorite "toss all part you get to the clan, we'll build, we'll supply, we'll sell"... Big clans would still have the advantage, yes - but there's no way to truly limit that unless you're willing to limit the number of members a clan could have. I feel that depending on the price given for the OP's, you'd see smaller cliques which exist inside these larger groups break off, especially if there's alot of land out there yet the clan doesn't want to take it.
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