View Full Version : This is why Blizzard > *
As of right now all us beta players have to rest for 8 consecutive hours for our rest state to reach well rested. Aside from that, most people in beta agrees that this "fatigue" idea is pretty good for leveling the playing field.
Today kat posted this. It's good to see a company that actually listens to their players instead of dictating how they should play. Btw... is anyone else in beta who is on horde?
The Rest State system will be undergoing some changes in the near future. Among other modifications, we will be adjusting the 8-hour timing to be much more flexible. Rest will be accumulated gradually vs. the “8 hours of rest or nothing” approach that is currently in place. To add to this adjustment, people who do not play for long periods of time (weekend warrior types) will accumulate extra rest. This will allow those who only play once or twice a week the added bonus of playing as “well rested” for longer than those who play on a daily basis.
Another anticipated change is to add the ability to rest from anywhere in the world. This should help players who forget or choose not to log off at an inn. Resting at an inn will remain the preferred method, as tiers will accumulate more rapidly if you log off inside an inn.
Lastly, we are planning on making the Rest State modifier a level-based sliding scale for how much experience you can gain at each tier. That is, at higher level-ranges, the amount of experience that you gain before moving down to the next tier of your Rest State will increase.
Overall, we are happy with the Rest State feature and appreciate everyone’s continued feedback. We realize that it still needs to be adjusted and will continue to do so until it’s where we want it to be.
~Kat :)
Lucid Dream
24-04-04, 09:26
Regardless of whether or not blizzard listens to their players, this is still an ass backwards game 'feature'.
Regardless of whether or not blizzard listens to their players, this is still an ass backwards game 'feature'.
whether or not its an "ass backward" feature, the point is the last line in the quote!!
"Overall, we are happy with the Rest State feature and appreciate everyone’s continued feedback. We realize that it still needs to be adjusted and will continue to do so until it’s where we want it to be."
Notice they use the words appreciate, everyones and feedback in the same sentence! and it doesnt have the word "not" in the tiniest writing ever like most game studios seem to put in, hidden somewhere.
I think Tycho (http://www.penny-arcade.com) put it best:
The decision makes clear that "power gaming" is an unhealthy aberration, the result of a design flaw and should be curbed. I don't see any other way to interpret it. When they say that the system "helps players avoid level-grinding," it's a nice way of saying "Please don't play our game until you die in a Korean cafe. Every eight hours, please verify that a part of you has not been chewed off by a neglected pet."
With some adjusting, I'm leaning towards liking it.
whether or not its an "ass backward" feature, the point is the last line in the quote!!
"Overall, we are happy with the Rest State feature and appreciate everyone’s continued feedback. We realize that it still needs to be adjusted and will continue to do so until it’s where we want it to be."
Notice they use the words appreciate, everyones and feedback in the same sentence! and it doesnt have the word "not" in the tiniest writing ever like most game studios seem to put in, hidden somewhere.
I think this part of the quote is more telling:
"We realize that it still needs to be adjusted and will continue to do so until it’s where we want it to be."
;)
N
hehe very good point, sounds like all game studios, but hey atleast they added they last part, even if they dont mean it.
I think this part of the quote is more telling:
;)
N
we can also mean devs + community...
Lucid Dream
24-04-04, 11:50
whether or not its an "ass backward" feature, the point is the last line in the quote!!
"Overall, we are happy with the Rest State feature and appreciate everyone’s continued feedback. We realize that it still needs to be adjusted and will continue to do so until it’s where we want it to be."
Notice they use the words appreciate, everyones and feedback in the same sentence! and it doesnt have the word "not" in the tiniest writing ever like most game studios seem to put in, hidden somewhere.
Yes, but my point was, Blizzard is definitally not > *, seeing as they came up with the feature in the first place. Blizzard may be > * in terms of listening to the playerbase and modifying the changes they make based on feedback, but they still put a crappy feature in to begin with.
Q`alooaith
24-04-04, 12:04
"hmmm, we want players to feel like they gain somthing when they level up, but don't want people who play 24/7 to have an instant advantage over the rest of our playerbase..."
"I know, let's try..."
And so on, you come up with a good way to limit people who can play all hour's of the day so they don't outshine the rest of your player base..
Look at the system, the general idea is you could play all hour's and would have higher level than somone who's played less, but if they ran into somone who was less active but had the same level from more time acumilated over a longer time they would not be as good in a PvP fight, as their avatar would be weakened by being up and about so often, a good rest would fix that up so the system fall's downb there moreso.. So maybe they should have done a build up negative effect's type thing, so the longer you are active the more fatuge you build up, which has a negative effect up to a point, after that the effect's drop's off but the fat build's up higher so it take's longer to "sleep" off..
Relic > bliz
:)
I dont see a problem with this... I LOVE computer games... maybe couldnt live happily without them but jesus christ... who plays more then 16 hours a day STRAIT? I dont have a job atm and im out of college and I play A LOT of games, but not 16 hour strait...how? I sleep a lot, go out a bit, cook food, shower, eat, talk to freinds... maybe some days I do 12, but people need more then 16!? anyone who cant deal with 16 hours a day max has problems... and I like it, evens out the power gamer with a job (hopefully me soon) from the freak who doesnt wash, eats as he plays, and still magically has money to live.
Lucid Dream
24-04-04, 12:20
I dont see a problem with this... I LOVE computer games... maybe couldnt live happily without them but jesus christ... who plays more then 16 hours a day STRAIT? I dont have a job atm and im out of college and I play A LOT of games, but not 16 hour strait...how? I sleep a lot, go out a bit, cook food, shower, eat, talk to freinds... maybe some days I do 12, but people need more then 16!? anyone who cant deal with 16 hours a day max has problems... and I like it, evens out the power gamer with a job (hopefully me soon) from the freak who doesnt wash, eats as he plays, and still magically has money to live.
Its not so much the specifics of how it works that bothers me, so much as the fact that they are trying to balance power gamers vs casual players. and in my oppinion, power gamers should ALWAYS have an advantage over casual. Its the very nature of a game, if you spend more time on it, you should get farther.. Granted, if this is the way it works, it wont affect anyone if you need to play 16 hours straight to see an effect, but i have a feeling its something more along the lines of after 3 hours, you get progressively less exp, until it hits a 'minimum exp gain' that requires the 8 hours of rest to get rid of.
ok... what you describe is lame, I agree. I agree putting more time in should make you better to a point.... blah blah lifes not fair but I plain just dont see it as "fair" that some 18 year old can play 100 hours a week and I can only do 50 because I need to have a job, eat, shower etc.... it should be based on whos actually "better" not on how much free time you have. That one thing I liked in NC, was relativly easy to cap a char, so didnt favor people who level 12 hours a day for months strait.
I think they're trying to give powergamers an edge compared to normal gamers, not trying to limit it that powergamers don't become gods compared to normal players. And also giving those who rarely play faster leveling.
I don't see what's so bad in that.
Q`alooaith
24-04-04, 13:23
the way the system work's is that while you can still play and power level, you have to level 3 times as hard after a certain ammount of time playing, or rest for a time then you get full benifit from leveling..
Playing more should let you have a slight advantage over somone playing less, but if you are playing constantly you should have to suffer lesser returns for your prolonged stint, you are still getting better reward's by virtue of playing more, but your advantage should not be such that you can gain godly power over another player if you've played 24 hour's and they only 6 or so.. That's a fairly reasonable two 12 hour day's Vs two 3 hour days, you should be in advance, but not so much so..
Now if that 24 houyr's was split into 8 3 hour day's you should have a massive advantage over somone who's only played two three hour day's..
I think a much better system is a level cap per day, so you can only gain so much XP each RL day, powerleveler's could reach that point and carry on for other reasons, and less power hungry player's would be short of it..
Basicaly keep's people from playing all day and night to get a massive advantage, but give's some incentive to play.. Since the weekend warrior type's lose 5 day's worth of XP cap's..
It's hard to make a system to make people who play all hour's more ballenced with people who don't..
Funny, that last line of the quote is almost identical to what KK posted about hybrids...
metalangel
24-04-04, 15:12
wE thnik hibreads are grate and r hapy wtih teh way tehy aer balunced!!!11111111oenoeneon
ONOZ TEH GMS QUICK HIED TEH COPBOT RIFFLES!!!11
This is probably a good idea.....
It's not healthy physically or mentally to play more than 16 hours a day...
I think the main reason they're doing it, is to get rid of money farmers that sell the games currency on Ebay.
Lineage2 has a huge problem this, at the moment, there's millions of game credits available on Ebay...
It's being sold by companies that create characters and have them manned 24/7 by people working in shifts*, who farm mobs constantly and then pass the credits to the "Pimpbot" who makes contact with the Ebay buyer...
*Sharing accounts is a violation of the EULA in L2.
Modern day sweatshop? (http://image2.sina.com.cn/gm/i/zg/2004-03-16/U168P115T41D7314F757DT20040316101733.jpg)
That pic is from this thread (http://boards.lineage2.com/tm.asp?m=196504) on L2's forum, those people supposably make $5 a day working there...
I don't think Blizzard is working on a timesink, I think their trying to prevent "other" things from happening that could ruin the game....
Q`alooaith
24-04-04, 15:25
wE thnik hibreads are grate and r hapy wtih teh way tehy aer balunced!!!11111111oenoeneon
ONOZ TEH GMS QUICK HIED TEH COPBOT RIFFLES!!!11
Nurse! You've got to watch while this one takes the blue pill's, I think you'll find today's stuffed up his nose, or somwhere worse.
power gamers should ALWAYS have an advantage over casual. Its the very nature of a game, if you spend more time on it, you should get farther..
Well duh! The powergamer will know the whole map before the casual, he will know the god spots to lvl fast and so on, so it wont do anything to the real powergamer because he will overcome it anyway and levling is not TEH only thing you hafto know as a powergamer. IF you think so then you really dont know what they are.
They can still switch chars and play along for 50 hours strait and not get any rest penalty, when the casual gamer got 1 capped char they got 4 of them..... so don´t come and talk BS here :p
Shadow Dancer
24-04-04, 20:20
Its not so much the specifics of how it works that bothers me, so much as the fact that they are trying to balance power gamers vs casual players. and in my oppinion, power gamers should ALWAYS have an advantage over casual. Its the very nature of a game, if you spend more time on it, you should get farther.. Granted, if this is the way it works, it wont affect anyone if you need to play 16 hours straight to see an effect, but i have a feeling its something more along the lines of after 3 hours, you get progressively less exp, until it hits a 'minimum exp gain' that requires the 8 hours of rest to get rid of.
Amen lucid. If you spend more time playing, then you should reap the rewards of doing so.
I like the idea of having a "extra rested" or whatever state for players who hardly play so they can level a bit faster. But I don't like the idea of powergamers getting penalized just because they put more time in.
Jeez.
It is actually, a very good idea. A few years ago, I wrote an article for an ISP, asking if ISP's should take some kind of responsibility for the time their customers spend in chat rooms and chat communities. This was based on medical information, people who spend all their times in any form of online community, could be generally replacing healthy social activity, for online activity, which for some people with certain medical problems, is very very bad.
Now, you may think a power gamer, is just running around, all the time, leveling up. Even people spending 16 hours a day doing that, will be suffering some kind of social problem, substituing a real social life, for an online social life, which is inherently unhealthy.
By enforcing rest every 8 hours, it sends out a message "playing 24 hours a day, is bad, ok?". Sure, some people will switch to another char. But all I can honestly say to "power levelers" is go out, get a life, being level 100 is nothing, it doesnt even exist, bitching because a "game" will interfere with your leveling, is totally lame. If you feel so strongly that you "want" to play 24/7, then go and see your doctor, and tell them how you are feeling, because you are ill, and need to see a shrink.
A player who plays 16 hours a day, will have a huge advantage over someone who plays only 16 hours a week, whilst someone who plays 8 hours a day, will again, take twice as long as a 16/24 to cap. My advice to the 16/24's, go out, get laid, and stop playing computers games cause your a very sad person with no real friends, cause Zar the level 50 white mage, isnt real.
Q`alooaith
25-04-04, 01:42
hell spending too much time online and not enough time talking to people IRL is bad for everyone.
Everyone has a messed up brain, spending too much time online and not enough with people just bring's them all to the boil.. There's no point saying "people who are mentaly ill should not be online" or other such tripe, anyone will become warped if they spend too much time away from human contact, or so my cat's keep telling me.
In years before this, I was what one could call a powergamer. I am still capable of being one except for the pure fact college is biting my ankles bad. :(
I am not interested in WoW, however their new concept is what I deem groundbreaking. May it be the first of concepts implemented to make online videogames proper alternate universes. :)
Amen lucid. If you spend more time playing, then you should reap the rewards of doing so.
I like the idea of having a "extra rested" or whatever state for players who hardly play so they can level a bit faster. But I don't like the idea of powergamers getting penalized just because they put more time in.
Jeez.
Oooh well is it so boring that a power gamer cant play 24/7......
Get out more, get laid. :rolleyes:
Rofl... not every one can't play 24/7.. mostly they have this "DADDY PAYS" thingie behind them ;)
Personally, i have regular job, and i'm doing 3shifts. See my friends, make some food, and even stay nice and clean to get some candy from girls ;) and aftel all this.. i still have time to sleep well, AND PLAY A LOT. I think some guys have issues on having some other to be better than them, and thats why whine about that they can't play all the time..
Dude.. if u play alldaylong.. ur gonna get ur self some sortta braincancer or somthing :)
Aziraphale
25-04-04, 13:07
Neocron has a similar system, known as the Fatal Runtime Error, it kicks you out of the game at completely random moments. This IS a feature, and it is there to protect you!
LOL:) hahaha... almost crapped my pants :)
indeed its a FEATURE to remind players that they have to eat once in a while :)
Shadow Dancer
25-04-04, 16:56
Oooh well is it so boring that a power gamer cant play 24/7......
That's not even the point dude. The point is powergamers being penalized for putting more time into it than "casual" gamers, is a bit silly. I mean leveling the playing field? It reminds me of how some people like parashock because they can't aim well.
That's not even the point dude. The point is powergamers being penalized for putting more time into it than "casual" gamers, is a bit silly. I mean leveling the playing field? It reminds me of how some people like parashock because they can't aim well.
wow, who would have thought you would have stuck something about parashock into a completely unrelated thread :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Shadow Dancer
25-04-04, 17:02
I rarely ever do that Lexx, I just thought it was an excellent analogy for this thread.
it actually has no bearing on this thread at all. because people use parashock, they cant aim (incorrect) blizzard are wrong in introducing a resting period in their game.
Another analogy, just because people have gone to the moon, using computers with 64k of memory, blizzard are wrong to introduce 8 hour resting periods.
Shadow Dancer
25-04-04, 17:14
it actually has no bearing on this thread at all. because people use parashock, they cant aim (incorrect) blizzard are wrong in introducing a resting period in their game.
They want to level the playing field between the casual gamer and the powergamer. To me that is silly, because it penalizes the powergamer for simply putting more time into the game.
The reason I brought up parashock, is because many people have stated it's a good thing because not everyone has lightning fast reflexes and it helps those with poor aim. So in that case, the people with good aiming skillz get penalized in a way because of the people with poor aim.
Makes sense to me.
no "power leveler" is going to get penalised simply because after 8 hours, their char is tired, cause offline, after a 16 hour straight session, they themselves will be tired. The casual gamer will not catch up to a power leveler, as a power leveler, by definition, would know how to level their char up properly in 16 hours, whilst in the same 16 hours, a casual gamer would only reach 1/3rd of the power levelers level. Its *nothing* to do with time spent in game, its *everything* to do with how the time in game is spent.
The parashock analogy still does not hold true in this thread, improving netcode, removing lag and chars jumping around would increase aiming. Having played a PE since Beta 4, my aiming is good, I also play a PPU, and can parashock, ergo, my aiming must be bad, because of a generalisation made by you. Parashock effects a few, the 8 hour rest effects everyone.
Shadow Dancer
25-04-04, 17:51
no "power leveler" is going to get penalised simply because after 8 hours, their char is tired, cause offline, after a 16 hour straight session, they themselves will be tired. The casual gamer will not catch up to a power leveler, as a power leveler, by definition, would know how to level their char up properly in 16 hours, whilst in the same 16 hours, a casual gamer would only reach 1/3rd of the power levelers level. Its *nothing* to do with time spent in game, its *everything* to do with how the time in game is spent.
That doesn't change the fact that powerlevelers get penalized for spending more time on their char. I'm not arguing whether it's a good idea or not right now, I'm just arguing against the reasoning. The silly belief that somehow the playing field between powergamers and casual gamers needs to be leveled.
The parashock analogy still does not hold true in this thread, improving netcode, removing lag and chars jumping around would increase aiming.
I think if KK could have improved the netcode and "removed" lag, they would have done so already.
Remember, melee tanks were given a range boost to compensate for the bad netcode.
ergo, my aiming must be bad, because of a generalisation
Nope. I said "some" people like parashock for that same exact reason. I didn't say everyone.
Parashock effects a few,
Parashock effects everyone who PvPs. You're saying only a few PvP?
How is a power leveler penalised? There is no penalty, there is no leveling of a field between casual and power leveler, the casual gamer will not spend 16 hours a day playing, the casual game will still be under the same restrictions as a 16 hour a day power leveler, the casual gamer will not be able to catch up to someone who puts in 16*7 hours per week. A weekend player, would be able to put in a maximum 32 hour week, 32 hours, thats 2 hours less than the European Working Time Directive (which limits the hours you can work in a week to 34 hours, maybe 36).
Even in Neocron, you get two people, one plays 16 hours a day for a week, one plays 8 hours on Saturday and Sunday, which will get complete rares, capped, MC5 chips first? The "power leveler" or the "casual gamer". Answers on a postcard to idontknow@idontcare.net.
People believe this 8 hour rest period to be a way to let casual gamers catch up with the power levelers, but thats just not going to happen.
Nope. I said "some" people like parashock for that same exact reason. I didn't say everyone.
=====
Parashock effects everyone who PvPs. You're saying only a few PvP?
Point (1). Making a sweeping statement based on limited participation on an item that effects minimalistic targets in relation to a objective which is presumed unlimited is an ineffectual counter debate.
Point (2). Yes.
Shadow Dancer
25-04-04, 18:10
Point (1). Making a sweeping statement based on limited participation on an item that effects minimalistic targets in relation to a objective which is presumed unlimited is an ineffectual counter debate.
Point (2). Yes.
1.Sweeping statement? Limited participation? :lol: That makes no sense. Btw "some" isn't a sweeping statement. And parashock is used about 320847408327402340324 a day in pvp. If you can't understand the analogy, well then i'm sorry but there's no better way to explain it.
2.A few people pvp? Well I don't know what server you're playing. Honestly.
About the powergamer thing, well I don't think you're understanding the point I was trying to make. I honestly don't understand how you can't see how they are trying to leveling the playingfield between both types of chars. So whatever, I guess we'll agree to disagree. :wtf:
Power gamers will always be a minority in a well balanced mainstream game.
The majority have often looked upon power gamers with a) amusement and b) annoyance. Often these power gamers are younger players, who dedicated far too much time to their game and up until now have reaped the rewards - often in ways the developers hadn't really anticipated or wanted them to
Blizzard are simply ensuring 2 things: 1) Power gamers will not get a significant advantage over casual gamers and 2) casual gamers will feel appreciated.
Now for the really relevant bit. Casual players who feel appreciated will carry on paying the bills a lot longer. Power gamers will just carry on until they burn out and find another game (like they always do). A few may not bother playing this game as a result - but hey, that's less irritation for the casual players, so another big plus.
All in all - brilliant move. KK, take note: how to keep your community alive. Don't listen to the arse head power gaming tossers and show your casual, mainstream players some love. Oops, too late, they all left. Sadly Neocron is now an anomaly in which the power gamers are the majority.
Shadow Dancer
25-04-04, 18:47
I don't see how KK ignored the casual gamers.
Leveling in this game is a hell of alot faster than any other mmorpg IMO.
I don't see how KK ignored the casual gamers.
Leveling in this game is a hell of alot faster than any other mmorpg IMO.
patch 160
nuff said
imo, i'm all for the new lvling system...now you can lvl at a slower pace and actually enjoy the game and take it all in. For all you people that think this idea sucks, and you can;t play 24/7 on the same char....go get a life :p
now you can lvl at a slower pace and actually enjoy the game and take it all in.
yea if u can lvl from the uber nibbogankers with *** against <
wow, who would have thought you would have stuck something about parashock into a completely unrelated thread :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
And you've never brought up dromsex or other spam related topics up in completely unrelated threads before?
Regarding topic: Consider it a realism issue instead of an anti-powerlevelling one. A swordsman would be knackered after an hour or two alone of constant fighting. After 6 hours he would simply collapse. It's not as if the 'rest' period has to be spent doing nothing at all. You can go out, hunt for a couple of hours, come back to a city, trade stuff, stock up on equipment, chat for a bit, go back out again for a couple of hours. All adds to the roleplay, and in a role playing game that's never a bad thing.
And you've never brought up dromsex or other spam related topics up in completely unrelated threads before?
Sure, but hey, I make a joke out of it, I'm not the actual joke :rolleyes:
Sure, but hey, I make a joke out of it, I'm not the actual joke :rolleyes:<3 you lexx
SEX!
Now for the really relevant bit. Casual players who feel appreciated will carry on paying the bills a lot longer. Power gamers will just carry on until they burn out and find another game (like they always do). A few may not bother playing this game as a result - but hey, that's less irritation for the casual players, so another big plus.
So true... And if the powergamers don´t like it they don´t need to play it simpel hu? Becuase loads of people will play it.... I will for sure I play for fun not to cap a char asap or kill as many monsters asap, that is boring and when things becomes boring without any reward they quit...
Thats why random drops on mobs are sooooo good, if KK thought that out there would be more happy hunting then the tech finding look out.
I don't see how KK ignored the casual gamers.
Leveling in this game is a hell of alot faster than any other mmorpg IMO.
And your INT on your monk is.....? :rolleyes:
Sure, but hey, I make a joke out of it, I'm not the actual joke :rolleyes:
At least in your own mind, anyway. :rolleyes:
And your INT on your monk is.....? :rolleyes:
Closer to being capped than it would be after the same amount of time in EverQuest at least. Besides the point is that you level up quickly in general. Why do people always pick out the tiny insignificant points?
Because unfortunately, people (like myself) love to nitpick. :p
But I can say that with me, when I nitpick, it tells me I for the most part agree with my own little set of disagreements.
Isn't that though agreeing with you still?
Shadow Dancer
26-04-04, 00:20
And your INT on your monk is.....? :rolleyes:
Obvoiusly int is the only exception.
Obvoiusly int is the only exception.Con on tank.
psi on spy
dex on monk
At least in your own mind, anyway. :rolleyes:
I'm just glad my minds my own.. baaaaaaaa
Shadow Dancer
26-04-04, 00:24
Con on tank.
psi on spy
dex on monk
I can cap dex on a monk in 6-7 hours. I capped psi fairly quickly on a spy, doing missions.
I never played a tank for con though. But I do know many tanks with capped con.
Those 3 you mentioned are far from the lengthiness other mmorpgs require. :p
I'm just glad my minds my own.. baaaaaaaa
Maybe you'll use it one day and prove that.
Theres a diff between a power gamer and a freak... power gamers put a lot of their free time into the game... free time meaning they have other things going on in their lives... freaks devote 24/7 to the game... and yes, these people should be penalized, it makes if fair to people who like to earn money, have freinds, eat, and wash....
I can cap dex on a monk in 6-7 hours. I capped psi fairly quickly on a spy, doing missions.
I never played a tank for con though. But I do know many tanks with capped con.
Those 3 you mentioned are far from the lengthiness other mmorpgs require. :pYes, cap dex on a monk by poking a move on in and out repeatedly.
Which, while not an exploit, is damn close.
Psi on a spy = about 200 aggy captain missions.
I capped str thrice on my tank, pvp'ed him a lot, base 93 con.
Theres a diff between a power gamer and a freak... power gamers put a lot of their free time into the game... free time meaning they have other things going on in their lives... freaks devote 24/7 to the game... and yes, these people should be penalized, it makes if fair to people who like to earn money, have freinds, eat, and wash....
I dont believe it is about penalizing the few who would play 24/7, it could range from, keeping the end game that much futher, to allowing the whole customer base to experience the whole game. If you know you can only do part x for 16 hours, that would leave you 8 hours to do part y, so opens up new branches of the game.
@ Scikar - did u think of that comeback yourself, or join in the bandwagon of someone elses train of thought?
Tank CON, Monk INT/DEX etc are secondary skills, while they are hard to cap it's not essential, and you can certainly have a char capable of fighting any other char 1v1 in a fairly short amount of time.
@Lexx: Seeing as I was the first to post it I'd say it's easy enough for somebody who is thinking for themself to realise it came from me and not somebody else. Come on, use that mind of your own and at least make me work a little.
Lex and Sci, take it to PMs or save it for the game, please.
N
Tank CON, Monk INT/DEX etc are secondary skills, while they are hard to cap it's not essential, and you can certainly have a char capable of fighting any other char 1v1 in a fairly short amount of time.
@Lexx: Seeing as I was the first to post it I'd say it's easy enough for somebody who is thinking for themself to realise it came from me and not somebody else. Come on, use that mind of your own and at least make me work a little.
Tank con not essential?
hahahaha
As for monk dex, it means an apu can be pure agility, and try get a decent con setup.
And a spy with shelter, and spy without is a huge difference.
Shadow Dancer
26-04-04, 01:03
you can certainly have a char capable of fighting any other char 1v1 in a fairly short amount of time.
So true.
Yes, cap dex on a monk by poking a move on in and out repeatedly.
Which, while not an exploit, is damn close.
Psi on a spy = about 200 aggy captain missions.
1.You're right, but it's still fast.
2.I just made tons of bps for very hard research missions.
Tank con not essential?
hahahaha
As for monk dex, it means an apu can be pure agility, and try get a decent con setup.
And a spy with shelter, and spy without is a huge difference.
Think. Tank CON is not essential to be capped. 95 CON to 100 CON is 50 points, which means about 3% absorption in a resist. Spy PSI isn't really too bad, it can be done with recycle or research missions without too much hassle (buying chems or getting a stackload of BPs made). Monk DEX, as you showed, can be brought up to about 25 with implanting in a couple of hours or so, it's getting it all the way to 35 that's a problem. The point is, a Monk with 20-odd DEX and a Tank with 90-odd CON are PvP-viable. To reach a PvP viable point in other MMORPGs takes a longer amount of time.
That's not even the point dude. The point is powergamers being penalized for putting more time into it than "casual" gamers, is a bit silly. I mean leveling the playing field? It reminds me of how some people like parashock because they can't aim well.
I dont agree with you.
All players are paying the same money for the game. But casual players are spending less time in the game, so their money-per-ingame-time rate is bad.
I mean, they have to pay more for the playtime, and then even get badder experience as they are easily owned by teenagers who have more time to level up and get better items. Thats not fair, thats not good economy. Imagine you own a 230 hp Mercedes and a shitty Ford driver is faster than you.
Also, as casual players are the main player base, they even subsidize the "parasite" power gamers. The hardware infrastructure is layed out for the peak times, and who benefits from it? The power gamer.
So the casual player should be rewarded much more.
And, if you are a "power customer" (means, you are willing to spend more money to get a better game experience) then you should also be able to have better equipment than teenage players. Or for Neocron, you should be able to buy slotted rares for real money and be able to activate some special features like faster exp gain or less SI when loming or genrepping.
Yeah, I think some sort of premium service would be good for Neocron.
I agree on your parashock sentence. I have a great PC that gives me 60-70 fps in OP fights. Parashock takes my advantages, they should be removed.
Shadow Dancer
26-04-04, 15:37
But casual players are spending less time in the game,
Who's fault is that?
I mean, they have to pay more for the playtime, and then even get badder experience as they are easily owned by teenagers who have more time to level up and get better items. Thats not fair,
How is that not fair? You put more time into it, you get more out of it. THe same goes for virtually anything in "real" life. First you say all gamers pay the same amount, then you say somehow casual gamers pay more for their playtime. And not all powergamers are teenagers.
And honestly, I don't consider casual gamers the "norm" in mmorpgs. Maybe not powergamers either, but somewhere in between. Powergamers can spend months to years on the same mmorpg. Especially with the rediculous leveling treadmills. Sorry, but games like UO, EQ, and other games where you have to invest an outrageous amount of time don't seem like games made for casual gamers.
So the casual player should be rewarded much more.
I disagree. Like I said I don't consider the casual gamer the norm in mmorpgs. Nor do I consider them "special" to be deserving unique treatment just for them.
And, if you are a "power customer" (means, you are willing to spend more money to get a better game experience) then you should also be able to have better equipment than teenage players. Or for Neocron, you should be able to buy slotted rares for real money and be able to activate some special features like faster exp gain or less SI when loming or genrepping.
Yeah, I think some sort of premium service would be good for Neocron.
Hrmmmm. First of all you make some decent points, but you really need to stop with the age based generalizations. "You should be able to have better equipment than teenagers". Wtf? So all teenagers are jobless kiddies who do nothing but play the game? C'mon now.
Anyways, I never thought about power customers. :lol: I kinda like that term. I do like the idea of being able to buy special perks or features in a mmorpg with RL money.
Imagine 1 person paying 10 a month for the "normal" gampeplay, another plays 10 + X(x being whatever you consider fair for those extra features) for normal gameplay + a few perks like um less SI, no gr rules? :p
But their would have to be limits. IT should be stuff that doesn't seriously throw off the balance of the game. I'm ok with buying rares or whatnot, but if someone buys higher level caps, that's a whole different realm. :p
I agree on your parashock sentence. I have a great PC that gives me 60-70 fps in OP fights. Parashock takes my advantages, they should be removed.
We agree. :D
How is that not fair? You put more time into it, you get more out of it. THe same goes for virtually anything in "real" life. First you say all gamers pay the same amount, then you say somehow casual gamers pay more for their playtime. And not all powergamers are teenagers.
I think what Cubico means is that despite the fact that a casual gamer spends less time online, he/she still pays the same monthly fee.
As an example:
Let's say a game costs $20 for 30 days of play time.
Let's say a casual gamer plays it for 4 hours every day.
Let's a power gamer plays it for 10 hours every day.
That means that in that 30 day period, the casual gamer plays 120 hours, while the power gamer plays 300 hours.
Now if you divide the cost for those 30 days by the time played, you'll notice that a casual gamer pays more per hour then a power gamer. A casual gamer pays ~$0.17 per hour, while the power gamer pays ~$0.07 per hour.
By inference, this actually means that for the company running an MMORPG, having a large fan base of casual gamers is in fact better; they cost less in bandwidth, but they do pay the same amount.
Also, the above, assuming it's a thingy no one ever spotted, is from now on known as Folsom's Law. Bwahaha.
Shadow Dancer
26-04-04, 16:07
Yea you're right.
Like you said, casual gamers may be a better fanbase, but mmorpgs don't certainly seem to be games for casual gamers.
Anyways, what the hell is a casual gamer?
You consider 4 hours everyday, "casual"?
Maybe we should agree on the defintion of what a powergamer or casual gamer is.
Let's say 2 players play a NC for 10 hours in one day. Player A spends all 10 of his hours chatting, exploring, and rping. Player B spends all 10 of his 10 hours at the chaos caves doing constant and continual runs so he can cap asap.
Is player B a powergamer? Are they both powergamers?
What about someone who plays 10 hours each day like player A, and someone else who plays 2 hours each day like player B?
Who's the powergamer? Who's the casual?
Is casual gamer related only to how much time they spend on the game? Or also related to what they do inside of it?
You consider 4 hours everyday, "casual"? In this case, I went for the "mass media" description of a "casual" gamer; that is someone who if he/she occasionally has some free time might fire up and play a game. I translated this into 4 hours a day.
And yes, I do know the media definitions are as inaccurate as it gets. ;P
Is casual gamer related only to how much time they spend on the game? Or also related to what they do inside of it?I do agree, it's generally more related to how they spend their in-game time. But you must also not forget that generally speaking people who play longer periods of time each day are also the ones who care the most about being "uber"; while someone who plays less generally also has less interest in that.
Not saying that is the case at all times, but just generally.
Shadow Dancer
26-04-04, 16:25
Couldn't disagree more.
Maybe(and I still have trouble using this word) MAYBE in nc, but I definitely don't consider that the general attitude in mmorpgs.
When I played UO. I played with TONS of people. You know, because UO's server had more than a 100 peeps. :D :D :D :D
I met all kinds of people who put alot of time into the game, and many of them didn't care about being ubar!
It's really not that black and white. :p
What do you think about cubico's premium service idea?
I like it alot the more I think about it.
Hi,
my last post was just sarcastic. Power-customers, hehe.
<<Who's fault is that?>>
its nobody's fault.
<<How is that not fair? You put more time into it, you get more out of it. THe same goes for virtually anything in "real" life.>>
A game is not real life, even a MMORPG. You often go there to escape your real life, and you are not supposed to encounter the same negative "game mechanics" as in real life.
I think a "3rd generation" MMORPG feature will be to not have this negative elements.
Currently I am really in a bad position compared to a pupil/student as I am working eight to nine hours a day, dont have much holidiays etc.
I have less time to work on my char, and when I have to fight someone else, then I might lose for reasons which I cannot change.
And then people even direct me and say I have no skills.
Regarding WoW, i dont know if there will be any PvP. Anyone knows?
If there is no PvP, then there is IMO no direct conflict between power- and casual gamers. They play in different leagues, going to differen locations, dealing with different items.
A conflict I imagine myself then would be if you can buy plot of lands. This source is limited, and power gamers have an advantage here.
Think. Tank CON is not essential to be capped. 95 CON to 100 CON is 50 points, which means about 3% absorption in a resist. Spy PSI isn't really too bad, it can be done with recycle or research missions without too much hassle (buying chems or getting a stackload of BPs made). Monk DEX, as you showed, can be brought up to about 25 with implanting in a couple of hours or so, it's getting it all the way to 35 that's a problem. The point is, a Monk with 20-odd DEX and a Tank with 90-odd CON are PvP-viable. To reach a PvP viable point in other MMORPGs takes a longer amount of time.Cap str on a tank, and you'll be lucky to have ~85 con.
In eve it takes 5 days to reach pvp viable.(and you only need spend 1 hour during that time)
Dunno bout other games, not been playing any.
Regarding WoW, i dont know if there will be any PvP. Anyone knows?
If there is no PvP, then there is IMO no direct conflict between power- and casual gamers. They play in different leagues, going to differen locations, dealing with different items.
A conflict I imagine myself then would be if you can buy plot of lands. This source is limited, and power gamers have an advantage here.
We know that the player vs. player (PvP) option is very important to many gamers. Therefore, we plan to incorporate a form of player conflict into the World of Warcraft. However, players who do not wish to be participate in PvP combat will not be required to do so. The PvP system will be incorporated in a consensual way that will be fun for those who wish to take part in this form of combat. Announcements regarding PvP options in the World of Warcraft will be announced in the months ahead.
They know it ofcourse it was a big base in online Diablo 2
i like the feature a lot .... great idea.... as a matter of fact most mmo demand way to much lvling and pokemon stuff.... ie rare parts items and so on... god damn i hate it....
neocron is really good in that aspect.. kinda fast to lvl up and the only thing that sucks is the rare pool.
neocron is really good in that aspect.. kinda fast to lvl up and the only thing that sucks is the rare pool.
Its really a great loot pool! if you want a paw of tiger really badly
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