View Full Version : What do you consider balanced for a hybrid?
After looking through Ezza's hybrid thread, I noticed that there are a lot of varying ideas about what would be balanced for hybrids. The key one being blessed defence/lvl 2 buffs/e beam.
However I disagree with this. I occasionally play a hybrid I have access too. He has only 84 base psi, but he's gone PPU first and thus has the blessed defence already. He is almost completely invulnerable to CS and everything below. Even with a tank occasionally getting a TL3 heal on me, I can completely outheal the damage with blessed shelter and blessed heal, enough that there is no way I'm going to die in a 1v1 with a tank. PEs are even easier, though they take less damage from energy halo. The only thing which is even remotely threatening is an APU, and I can kill him with damage boosted energy halo faster than he can kill me with HL. Holy Energy Halo is lethal enough as it is. Energy Beam and Blessed defences would easily win a 2v1 against tanks/PEs/spies.
The simple fact is, blessed defence outheals CS/Libby/any other primary weapon of anything besides an APU. So how can that possibly be balanced with anything more than a low % holy halo or a half decent TL37 halo? And I'm outhealing these from the hybrid perspective, so any accusations of a lack of skill on my part can go for every tank I've met on my hybrid too.
So the result is simple, either anything more than a low % holy halo is limited to regular shelter and TL3 heal, or blessed defences will need to be reduced. I think this makes a worthwhile situation. On my hybrid, I love the defence but I hate having nothing to attack with, but at the same time regular shelter defence is FAR weaker than blessed. The problem is the balanced hybrid sits right in that gap between the two, which we can't hit.
So I suggest that KK cut blessed defence a little, and make holy halos more accessible to hybrids. Stick with regular shelter to go with energy beam, every hybrid I've seen with that kind of setup has worked fine so I don't see why they need blessed defence.
This comes from experience fighting as hybrid, PE, and tank, so I assume that those who are suggesting e beam/blessed shelter can perhaps explain how some of their fights go as/against hybrids?
Shadow Dancer
15-04-04, 21:38
I think bless/cap halo is fine.
I think normal shelter/capped e beam could be fine too.
Maybe.
The main concern is bless heal. That's probably the overpowering factor. I think it should be made so that you need 500% on a heal to be able to heal yourself while being struck by enemies.
But I still believe that hybrids should just get their own spells period.
The way hybrids are now is not viable imo. It's broken. Crappy crappy offense.
nothing personal to you sickar
but what i'd consider a balanced hybrid is something that both you and shads have had NO FUCKING INPUT INTO
nothing personal to you sickar
but what i'd consider a balanced hybrid is something that both you and shads have had NO FUCKING INPUT INTO
That's because (nothing personal of course) what you consider a balanced hybrid is nothing short of overpowered. Now it's either because you have a lack of skill and need to make up for it by playing an overpowered class, or you simply don't have enough basic knowledge of the game to understand what balance is.
I am asking you here, to simply explain why e beam/blessed shelter hybrid would be balanced. Convince me, and I'll back it to KK, because despite what you may think, I'd like hybrids to be as viable as any other class. Currently hybrids are underpowered and need a boost of some sort, I'd just like to see that boost be the one that balances them. Now either post some facts and explain why e beam/blessed shelter hybrid is balanced, or a way in which it could work, or kindly get the fuck out of my thread.
your able to cap a beam and norm shelter. and hav really good pool.
but ur playing with the calc system the game gives u. such as using the pas to boost ur power. even thou pas hav - to their stats its actually mroe of a boost then over all nerf. do to the fast u put it on it lowers the -% to ur damage and raises ur damage throu the same skill ur aiming for.
kinda hard to explain. but someof u might understand wut am saying.
Shadow Dancer
15-04-04, 21:49
your able to cap a beam and norm shelter. and hav really good pool.
but ur playing with the calc system the game gives u. such as using the pas to boost ur power. even thou pas hav - to their stats its actually mroe of a boost then over all nerf. do to the fast u put it on it lowers the -% to ur damage and raises ur damage throu the same skill ur aiming for.
kinda hard to explain. but someof u might understand wut am saying.
Are you sure bro? I was capped and had a DS, and I couldn't find a setup that capped energy beam and got at least 300% on shelter.
The most I got on energy beam was like 520%. But that's *really* crappy, especially without damage boost. And damage boost isn't exactly a high percentage either.
How did you do it?
Are you sure bro? I was capped and had a DS, and I couldn't find a setup that capped energy beam and got at least 300% on shelter.
The most I got on energy beam was like 520%. But that's *really* crappy, especially without damage boost. And damage boost isn't exactly a high percentage either.
How did you do it?
well i hav t look at my set up but u hav to waste ur achivement points like putting apu3 imps and using apu pa3 or so all gives -to u in ppu but u are saving like 40*5 = 160 points in ur stats then dumping it all into ppu which will beable to cap a shelter i capped posion beam and shelter ezy. HL i barly capped the beam but speed is capped i am like 38% short i belive last time i tryed it.
its kinda based on the old kami setup were u used a pa to use all spells. but now its mroe of a cookie cutter setup.
I think he means swapping PAs. Put on PPU PA to buff up, then swap it out for APU PA to attack. Not even remotely viable.
Be able to runcast an energy beam and have a decentish basic shelter would be a rough guess but monks arent my area of expertise.
Scikar is dead on...a blessed heal+shields hybrid with Holy Energy Halo or anything above that is DEFINITELY overpowered for PvP.
I think the problem is in the fact that PPU heals and shields only come in 3 flavors: regular, blessed, and holy. If you are leveling any class other than a PPU, you will upgrade your weapon a dozen times before you cap. However, PPUs only upgrade twice. Perhaps if KK added 1 or 2 more levels of PPU heals and shields, it might be easier to come up with a balanced hybrid class. Right now, the moment you jump from regular to blessed defenses and heals, you are instantly overpowered with any TL 40+ APU spell.
I think he means swapping PAs. Put on PPU PA to buff up, then swap it out for APU PA to attack. Not even remotely viable.
yah something like that but u dont need to swap just go bar min and i enough pool to use a holy cath sathum so u dont need to sawp if i would to lom pool.
it took me forever in NF but its possible. i said this in test but noone agreed
runcast is capped thanks to psiuse :)
Edit-- this is my secret monk build i been saying at random times on forums that everyone was wondering (wondering- yah right) :) just decided to speak since were all into this.
Shadow Dancer
15-04-04, 21:58
yah something like that but u dont need to swap just go bar min and i enough pool to use a holy cath sathum so u dont need to sawp if i would to lom pool.
it took me forever in NF but its possible. i said this in test but noone agreed
runcast is capped thanks to psiuse :)
Wait, you can use holy cath?
:confused:
I think he means swapping PAs. Put on PPU PA to buff up, then swap it out for APU PA to attack. Not even remotely viable.
Ahh, if it involves PA switching then I could understand if it was possible. I didn't pa switch. I can't stand it. :p
I think the problem is in the fact that PPU heals and shields only come in 3 flavors: regular, blessed, and holy. If you are leveling any class other than a PPU, you will upgrade your weapon a dozen times before you cap. However, PPUs only upgrade twice. Perhaps if KK added 1 or 2 more levels of PPU heals and shields, it might be easier to come up with a balanced hybrid class. Right now, the moment you jump from regular to blessed defenses and heals, you are instantly overpowered with any TL 40+ APU spell.[/COLOR]
That's a really good point Ray. I hadn't thought of that. Maybe lesser blessed heal and greater blessed heal.
no i cant use cath. i hav enough pool for its cost i mean
Dribble Joy
15-04-04, 22:01
Blessed shelter isn't the problem it's blessed heal.
Add the two together and PPU biased hybrids (as they were in the past), are still overpowered.
Without increasing the TL of blessed heal (which would bring it too high for a blessed spell, and too close to the holies, I don't know what we can do.
Increase the mst even further?
Blessed shelter isn't the problem it's blessed heal.
Add the two together and PPU biased hybrids (as they were in the past), are still overpowered.
Without increasing the TL of blessed heal (which would bring it too high for a blessed spell, and too close to the holies, I don't know what we can do.
Increase the mst even further?
i hav 1 idea but its really hard to work with its basically increasing the damage % not increaseing their damage just % so its alot higher to gain. but first we need to nerf monks agin before we can do this. but its my idea and i hardly think it can work with out alot of thought.
-edit- hmmm just had a thought i can probly use holy cath if i sawp pas might need to drug for pa4 thou :(
your able to cap a beam and norm shelter. and hav really good poolExactly, and that's fine. But asking to cap a beam and also have BLESSED level PPU spells is when the problems arise.
I think this is comparable to the PE class. A PE cannot possibly cap their TL 25 shelter but an APU-biased hybrid can easily cap it. Add to that the excellent monk armor plus access to heavy belts and you have a very decent CON setup.
You can heal as well as a PE, have similar defenses and damage output, and no reticle. Not bad.
[QUOTE=BombShell]your able to cap a beam and norm shelter. and hav really good poolQUOTE]Exactly, and that's fine. But asking to cap a beam and also have BLESSED level PPU spells is when the problems arise.
I think this is comparable to the PE class. A PE cannot possibly cap their TL 25 shelter but an APU-biased hybrid can easily cap it. Add to that the excellent monk armor plus access to heavy belts and you have a very decent CON setup.
You can heal as well as a PE, have similar defenses and damage output, and no reticle. Not bad.
yah true but also u hav to take in account that a monk can also hav 400+ life :) shelter and capped HL which out powers a PE. its basically a APU with PE defence.
problem here is its on the border. any nerf with either nerf PPU/APU or totally kill the hybrid agin. thats the problem :) or at least this hybrid
edit- also thxs to trying to cap shelter am able to use haz 1 or heat 1 :)
Shadow Dancer
15-04-04, 22:13
no i cant use cath. i hav enough pool for its cost i mean
Oh. I see.
I think this is comparable to the PE class. A PE cannot possibly cap their TL 25 shelter but an APU-biased hybrid can easily cap it. Add to that the excellent monk armor plus access to heavy belts and you have a very decent CON setup.
You can heal as well as a PE, have similar defenses and damage output, and no reticle. Not bad.[/COLOR]
Actually you don't need to cap shelter spells. Around 300% is good enough.
yah true but also u hav to take in account that a monk can also hav 400+ life :) shelter and capped HL which out powers a PE. its basically a APU with PE defence.
problem here is its on the border. any nerf with either nerf PPU/APU or totally kill the hybrid agin. thats the problem :) or at least this hybrid
You can't cap a shelter, have 400+ life with buffs, and still cap an HL.
:confused:
And your right, "pure" monk tweaks affect hybrids. Which is why I keep suggesting for hybrids to get their own line of spells. :D :D
u can melee1 haz1 and ever since thay nerfed pa with ath a while bak i put all that free stats in hlt. thats hwo that works.
edit- only speed i got is throu my agl.
Shadow Dancer
15-04-04, 22:16
u can melee1 haz1 and ever since thay nerfed pa with ath a while bak i put all that free stats in hlt. thats hwo that works.
Haz 1 requires about 75 ppu IIRC. You can't spare that much in PPU and still cap HL.
I wish you could though. :D
Cap a shelter and HL at the same time? Sorry, no.
Haz 1 requires about 75 ppu IIRC. You can't spare that much in PPU and still cap HL.
I wish you could though. :D
u can. because i need that much to cap shelter. actually alot more and also didnt i say having -ppu costless then having -apu since u hav -5 stat points in apu since ur trying to cap apu and having to spend much less ppu for a lesser spell.
like i keep saying its a cookie cutter setup. u cant just dump and hope u cap u hav to use every possible resource u can get.
haha lost alot or rep points all because am telling the truth
Shadow Dancer
15-04-04, 22:21
u can. because i need that much to cap shelter. actually alot more and also didnt i say having -ppu costless then having -apu since u hav -5 stat points in apu since ur trying to cap apu and having to spend much less ppu for a lesser spell.
You can't wear PPu pa unless you have around 90 PPU iirc.
I currently don't have a DS, and I get about 625% on HL with 330 mana pool.
When I did have a DS, I capped it and had 370 mana pool. But just a FEW points taken away from APU would make me not cap HL.
So I find it hard to believe you can get 75 ppu while still capping HL?
Remember you need to overspec ppu because of the apu chips. And if you don't wear the apu chips then you don't cap HL.
You can't wear PPu pa unless you have around 90 PPU iirc.
I currently don't have a DS, and I get about 625% on HL with 330 mana pool.
When I did have a DS, I capped it and had 370 mana pool. But just a FEW points taken away from APU would make me not cap HL.
So I find it hard to believe you can get 75 ppu while still capping HL?
Remember you need to overspec ppu because of the apu chips. And if you don't wear the apu chips then you don't cap HL.
u do understand i dont swap pa's lets repeat this. if am saying like 160 points from all the imps and crap in apu. to cap hl. then with the rest of my points i stick into mst bar min of crouse. then rest into ppu. which all the way to 100 ppu more if needed i really hav to recheck my monk havnt been on for a while. -5 points hurts more then -3 points. so i save alot from -stats on imps and pa.
Shadow Dancer
15-04-04, 22:28
u do understand i dont swap pa's lets repeat this. if am saying like 160 points from all the imps and crap in apu.
I know I was making a point, even if you did swap pas it wouldn't be poss.
if am saying like 160 points from all the imps and crap in apu. to cap hl. then with the rest of my points i stick into mst bar min of crouse. then rest into ppu. which all the way to 100 ppu more if needed i really hav to recheck my monk havnt been on for a while. -5 points hurts more then -3 points. so i save alot from -stats on imps and pa.
You need about 178 apu to cap HL. And like 100-110 ppw.
You don't have enough points to spend on ppu. You just don't.
If what you're saying is true, their would be tons of apus all over the place with capped HL and shelter/haz. That would be overpowered.
umm 160 is the points i saved from using imps not wut i got from using imps
and from wut ur saying
45 ppu is more power then
37 ppu and 8 ppw.
if u well balance the setup like how were able to get 400% on shelter for pes which everyone argued with me a while bak was impossible. which i canpped PE before thay nerfed pes from shelter.
Shadow Dancer
15-04-04, 22:29
umm 160 is the points i saved from using imps not wut i got from using imps
You *saved* 160 points form using imps?
Ok can you explain this to me. What's your apu base and ppu base? And what are your imps?
You *saved* 160 points form using imps?
Ok can you explain this to me. What's your apu base and ppu base? And what are your imps?
ok. ilets say u hav like 150 apu right and 0 ppu
u stick in +25apu - 10ppu u hav 25 free points * 5 lets say = 125 then add that to ppu then u get 75+ ppu so u hav 150 apu and 75 ppu. just as a example.
-edit- hmmm just had a thought i can probly use holy cath if i sawp pas might need to drug for pa4 thou :(
Unless you're sittin on a crescent tab, you can't use PA4. Trust me, I've done the math many times. As long as PA4 is PSI 135 you can't do it. For a while it was PSI 130, which was doable.. except as soon as your drugs wear off so does the PA. The PSI gain from PA4 is not enough to keep your PSI at the 130. So you'd be a nonstop druggy.
Back OT though, I've always had a problem deciding exactly what's fair to give a hybrid. Hybrids should be just as viable as other classes, but because everyone is afraid of overpowering them, they're held to a much higher standard. When a PE takes down multiple opponents, it's called Skill. When a Hybrid does the same, it's cause he's an overpowered Hybrid. In that regard, I understand hich's sentiments. I want a powerful Hybrid, I want my character to be able to withstand more then one person attacking me, and I want to do more then 10 damage a shot. It's really unfair that other's can do that, but Hybrids can't. Unfortuanetly given equal starting points, hybrids are capable of too much. They become overpowered pretty easily, which is just as bad as being underpowered.
I like the idea of dividing up ppu spells more, having more then just 3 types of heals. Heal is definitly a good place to start in regards to fixing hybrids. We agree blessed is to strong, so maybe somthing between basic and blessed would be more apropriate. A hybrid has better healing power due to him being a psi monk, but not nearly as good as anything even a midlevel ppu can do. Noone should be able to challenge a ppu in healing powers. As a hybrid I have a 5 slot blessed heal which does an inredible amount of healing, just as good as most holy heals. That's just wrong.
Unless you're sittin on a crescent tab, you can't use PA4. Trust me, I've done the math many times. As long as PA4 is PSI 135 you can't do it. For a while it was PSI 130, which was doable.. except as soon as your drugs wear off so does the PA. The PSI gain from PA4 is not enough to keep your PSI at the 130. So you'd be a nonstop druggy.
Back OT though, I've always had a problem deciding exactly what's fair to give a hybrid. Hybrids should be just as viable as other classes, but because everyone is afraid of overpowering them, they're held to a much higher standard. When a PE takes down multiple opponents, it's called Skill. When a Hybrid does the same, it's cause he's an overpowered Hybrid. In that regard, I understand hich's sentiments. I want a powerful Hybrid, I want my character to be able to withstand more then one person attacking me, and I want to do more then 10 damage a shot. It's really unfair that other's can do that, but Hybrids can't. Unfortuanetly given equal starting points, hybrids are capable of too much. They become overpowered pretty easily, which is just as bad as being underpowered.
I like the idea of dividing up ppu spells more, having more then just 3 types of heals. Heal is definitly a good place to start in regards to fixing hybrids. We agree blessed is to strong, so maybe somthing between basic and blessed would be more apropriate. A hybrid has better healing power due to him being a psi monk, but not nearly as good as anything even a midlevel ppu can do. Noone should be able to challenge a ppu in healing powers. As a hybrid I have a 5 slot blessed heal which does an inredible amount of healing, just as good as most holy heals. That's just wrong.
probly right just i never tried :) i didnt say it was a real achievement ;)
Psi Attack 3 is +15 APU and -20 PPU though. The negative is bigger than the positive and that's only freeing up 45 APU points. Suppose APU is > 150 and PPU is 0, you put that in and you get 150 APU with 25 PPU, that's all.
Shadow Dancer
15-04-04, 22:38
ok. ilets say u hav like 150 apu right and 0 ppu
u stick in +25apu - 10ppu u hav 25 free points * 5 lets say = 125 then add that to ppu then u get 75+ ppu so u hav 150 apu and 75 ppu. just as a example.
what? :confused:
First of all +25 apu - 10 ppu? Attack chip 2 and 3 give +25 apu, but alot more penalty then -10 ppu. Attack 2 and 3 together give a -35 ppu penalty. Let's make it -25 with psi core and ds.
And where did you get 25 free points * 5? You mean to lom away right? So you lom 25 of that apu and get 125 free points. Fine ok. It takes 100 points to get from 0 in a skill to 75. However with the minus 25 ppu penalty, you would need 100 base ppu. SO that it becomes 75 after the penalty.
To get 100 in a skill, you need 175 points. At high levels of apu, that's equivalent to 35 lost apu points. 35 whopping apu points. And that's before APU pa. :wtf:
So how exactly do you have enough points to cast haz and cap HL? :p
I like the idea of dividing up ppu spells more, having more then just 3 types of heals. Heal is definitly a good place to start in regards to fixing hybrids. We agree blessed is to strong, so maybe somthing between basic and blessed would be more apropriate. A hybrid has better healing power due to him being a psi monk, but not nearly as good as anything even a midlevel ppu can do. Noone should be able to challenge a ppu in healing powers. As a hybrid I have a 5 slot blessed heal which does an inredible amount of healing, just as good as most holy heals. That's just wrong.What if there were 4 heals? The TL3 heal could be made, say, TL8 and improved a bit, then TL38, TL 64, and TL90 heals. The TL38 one would heal a good deal less than the current blessed heal, and the TL64 one would heal a little bit more, and the TL90 one would be about the same as the current holy heal.
Psi Attack 3 is +15 APU and -20 PPU though. The negative is bigger than the positive and that's only freeing up 45 APU points. Suppose APU is > 150 and PPU is 0, you put that in and you get 150 APU with 25 PPU, that's all.
yah i know but its just a exaimple and also its nto all the points. add a ppu pa which will null that. its really much of balancing which one to get the most out of it. all i ask is give it a try. because i hav to go .
what? :confused:
First of all +25 apu - 10 ppu? Attack chip 2 and 3 give +25 apu, but alot more penalty then -10 ppu. Attack 2 and 3 together give a -35 ppu penalty. Let's make it -25 with psi core and ds.
And where did you get 25 free points * 5? You mean to lom away right? So you lom 25 of that apu and get 125 free points. Fine ok. It takes 100 points to get from 0 in a skill to 75. However with the minus 25 ppu penalty, you would need 100 base ppu. SO that it becomes 75 after the penalty.
To get 100 in a skill, you need 175 points. At high levels of apu, that's equivalent to 35 lost apu points. 35 whopping apu points. And that's before APU pa. :wtf:
So how exactly do you have enough points to cast haz and cap HL? :p
its just a exaple. when i get home ill DM u my monk setup and u can see. i just hav to look at it agin. . its really confusing if u keep thinking bak and furth but its really ezy to do. but i would get home till 11 pm sp i got like a whole day to go. just bare with me ill try and get the info to prove my point.
-- Cya guys enjoy the rest of ur day --
Shadow Dancer
15-04-04, 22:45
Ok no problem. Cyaz
all i ask is give it a try.Do you have any idea how many monk setups I have made with the skillmanager since I rolled my monk? :rolleyes:
Do you have any idea how many monk setups I have made with the skillmanager since I rolled my monk? :rolleyes:
hah skill managers still dont calculate damage % :) ive been working on that but kk keeps changing the weapons so i stoped only thing i hav at the moment is my pvp calc :) its off a bit but it works :)
Dribble Joy
15-04-04, 22:47
What if there were 4 heals? The TL3 heal could be made, say, TL8 and improved a bit, then TL38, TL 64, and TL90 heals. The TL38 one would heal a good deal less than the current blessed heal, and the TL64 one would heal a little bit more, and the TL90 one would be about the same as the current holy heal.
Not bad..... Though the tl 38 (or what ever) would have to be the focus of a lot of balanceing re. its tl/overall dmg/healing power.
hah skill managers still dont calculate damage % :) ive been working on that but kk keeps changing the weapons so i stoped only thing i hav at the moment is my pvp calc :) its off a bit but it works :)Skill managers do let you play with points though, and armed with knowledge of numbers needed to cap %s, you can easily plan your char. To use Shadows numbers, 178 apu, 75 ppu, 83 mst, and 100+ ppw is not possible in any way shape or form.
johngreen2000
15-04-04, 22:55
explaination of what bomb is saying
say you have 115 base apu
and 0 base ppu
your using 250 points
now try this
apu base 100
ppu base 0
now you put in attack 3 chip(i dont play a monk so i dont know the exact stats but im guessing +15 apu - 20 ppu)
115 apu
-20 ppu now add 20 point into ppu so that you get 115apu and 0 ppu
to get the same stats as before you used 195 point 175 for the apu to 100(+15 with chip) and 20 for ppu to get to 0(-20 from chip)
you saved 55 point by using that chip, do that with the other chips and apu power armour. I havnt run the figures to see if bombshell is correct but that is what he is tring to explain
Scikar is dead on...a blessed heal+shields hybrid with Holy Energy Halo or anything above that is DEFINITELY overpowered for PvP.
I think the problem is in the fact that PPU heals and shields only come in 3 flavors: regular, blessed, and holy. If you are leveling any class other than a PPU, you will upgrade your weapon a dozen times before you cap. However, PPUs only upgrade twice. Perhaps if KK added 1 or 2 more levels of PPU heals and shields, it might be easier to come up with a balanced hybrid class. Right now, the moment you jump from regular to blessed defenses and heals, you are instantly overpowered with any TL 40+ APU spell.
amen.
Only balanced hybrid was the early retail (september 2002) hybrid. With the introduction of the blessed/holy stuff and the buffs later on it started to get out of hand.
the only balanced MONK was this one (http://www.neocron.at/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=31)
possible idea would be to put some of the buffs into EPU and other of the newer spells.
some of the reqs would also need to be adapted to the current DS & PA situation.
Only chance for a balanced monk class is a hybrid. As long as there are APU/PPU you'll never get to some usefull gamebalance. Just posting my opinion.
Yeah we understand how it works, but once your PPU gets above 50 base you only gain 4 PPU from it, and above 75 base PPU you start losing points. You need 56 PPU for shelter, so that's 76 base with a Psi Attack 3, most if you have Psi Attack 2 as well. The point cost just doesn't leave enough to still meet MST reqs for HL, cap it and have high mana on top, as well as capping shelter.
-stuff-Yes I know. My hybrid has an attack 3 in his head.
what? :confused:Let's say you have an APU biased hybrid and you have a PSI core and DS (+10 each to PPU and APU) with 140 APU (130 base) and 75 PPU (65 base). You then decide to pop in an Attack 3. This gives you 15 APU levels so you can LoM those out from APU which frees up 75 skill points. Your base was 130 so each of those 15 levels frees up 5 skill points. So now you still have 140 APU but you have lost 20 PPU levels because of the Attack 3. You start spending the 75 freed up points in PPU...the first 10 levels cost you 2 points each and the 2nd 10 cost 3 points each. The total spent to return to 75 PPU is 50 points; thus, you have 25 points extra now to use for 5 more APU levels , some PPW, or whatever.
johngreen2000
15-04-04, 23:04
btw what site offers power claok stats or can someone named the apu 3 stats...just the ppu apu +,-s
4 heals sounds great to me. How does something like this sound, as a rough guide to strength.
Heal: A little better then now, but a 5slotted normal Heal is already pretty badass
Blessed Heal: A more reasonable heal, but even at 5slots it should not be capable of outhealing a capped character's damage, no other class can outheal, so neither should a hybrid.
Holy Heal: A ppu's first heal should come close or be able to cover a single capped character's damage. This is aprox where the current Blesed Heal is now.
Sacred Heal: The ppu's uber heal is the equivalant of our current Holy Heal, capable of fending off two attackers, stretching it maybe 3? Never more then that.
I think that's a pretty good range of powers.
What TLs would you place those at? Did my suggestions sound reasonable?
btw what site offers power claok stats or can someone named the apu 3 stats...just the ppu apu +,-sLevel 3 armor adds 16 APU levels but takes away 25 PPU. The negatives are too high, you shouldn't use PA for hybrids.
Mr Friendly
15-04-04, 23:10
hybrids were created to be strong enough to lvl in hard areas by themselves & at the same time, not be so gimped but to be able to do good dmg.
I see absolutely no problem with hybrids currently as they're great in PvP but cant take on many ppl at all. so in the end "dont try to fix somthing that isn't broken"
Mr Friendly
15-04-04, 23:10
Level 3 armor adds 16 APU levels but takes away 25 PPU. The negatives are too high, you shouldn't use PA for hybrids.
if ur good at math u see the advantage using PA & therefore use one :p
if ur good at math u see the advantage using PA & therefore use one :pOh? I see only a few free points on my hybrid, and way way less runspeed. No thanks.
Not to mention the loss of 13 pierce and 8 frc resist...
johngreen2000
15-04-04, 23:12
exactly...at any apu over 100base your get 16*5 = 80 points
and as long as your ppu in below 100 basethe most your losing is 3*25 which is 75
80> 75 so you actually gain more
Dribble Joy
15-04-04, 23:13
4 heals sounds great to me. How does something like this sound, as a rough guide to strength.
Heal: A little better then now, but a 5slotted normal Heal is already pretty badass
Blessed Heal: A more reasonable heal, but even at 5slots it should not be capable of outhealing a capped character's damage, no other class can outheal, so neither should a hybrid.
Holy Heal: A ppu's first heal should come close or be able to cover a single capped character's damage. This is aprox where the current Blesed Heal is now.
Sacred Heal: The ppu's uber heal is the equivalant of our current Holy Heal, capable of fending off two attackers, stretching it maybe 3? Never more then that.
I think that's a pretty good range of powers.
I concur.
..I like [Ray's] idea of dividing up ppu spells more, having more then just 3 types of heals...You're welcome. :D
Shadow Dancer
15-04-04, 23:28
Let's say you have an APU biased hybrid and you have a PSI core and DS (+10 each to PPU and APU) with 140 APU (130 base) and 75 PPU (65 base). You then decide to pop in an Attack 3. This gives you 15 APU levels so you can LoM those out from APU which frees up 75 skill points. Your base was 130 so each of those 15 levels frees up 5 skill points. So now you still have 140 APU but you have lost 20 PPU levels because of the Attack 3. You start spending the 75 freed up points in PPU...the first 10 levels cost you 2 points each and the 2nd 10 cost 3 points each. The total spent to return to 75 PPU is 50 points; thus, you have 25 points extra now to use for 5 more APU levels , some PPW, or whatever.
Read my last few posts. ;)
hybrids were created to be strong enough to lvl in hard areas by themselves & at the same time, not be so gimped but to be able to do good dmg.
I see absolutely no problem with hybrids currently as they're great in PvP but cant take on many ppl at all. so in the end "dont try to fix somthing that isn't broken"
You don't think that a bless hybrid has really crap damage?
if ur good at math u see the advantage using PA & therefore use one :pSmartass.
In my example...
PSI Core + DS:
140 APU (130 base)
75 PPU (65 base)
Total skill points used = 395
PSI Core + DS + Attack 3:
140 APU (115 base)
75 PPU (85 base)
Total skill points used = 370 (25 point savings)
If you add APU PA 3, only the first 15 of the 16 levels save you 5 points each and a mere 15 of the 25 lost PPU levels cost you 3 points each. The other 10 will cost you 5 skill points each. Thus:
PSI Core + DS + Attack 3 + APU PA 3:
140 APU (99 base)
75 PPU (110 base)
Total skill points used = 397 (27 point LOSS)
:D
johngreen2000
15-04-04, 23:36
aight so heres my calc
psi core, ds,attack 3, attack 2, apu 3 cloak = +51 apu -40 ppu
124 base apu= 295 point add is bonuses and oyu get 175 apu
100 base ppu(60 after chips/armor) cost 175 points
thats a total of 470 points used
10 mental from core/ds +30 from points
total would be
175 apu
60 ppu
40 mental with 24 power form ds and core
adjustments
173 apu
60ppu
50 mental and 24 power
171 apu
60ppu
50 mental 34 power
169 apu
60 ppu
50 mental 44 power
168 apu
67 ppu
40 mental 24 power
165 apu
70 ppu
40 mental 24 power
160 apu
70ppu
50 mental 39 power
those are some combos you could do with maxed out with ds/and core and pa3
assuming the stats on croncom.com are correct.
alright so checking holy lightning
apu155
ppu60
mental 86
power 26
100% efficent use of skill points
Read my last few posts. ;)I did read them and I went to the trouble of posting the example to try and answer the question I thought you were asking. If I misunderstood your question then ignore my futile attempt to help you. No need to throw it in my face. Or a simple "Thanks Ray, but what I was unclear about was.." would do also. :(
The larger APU version is nowhere as good as blessed defence/ holy halo combo in solo fights, monks are screwed up anyways all classes are underpowered compared to monks.
The larger APU version is nowhere as good as blessed defence/ holy halo combo in solo fights...Well of course, but most people agree that the blessed defense/holy halo combo = overpowered.
I agree to that...but how many people bother making a hybrid? they are useless in a team and can carry no secondary abilities. e.g hacking or implanting. They are solely for soloing and PES are alot easier to build, even they arn't as good as an endgame, I think its sort of fair, I dont' see it being too imbalanced at the moment. PPU spells are more the problem. I thik these monks spells are too easy to aim, and they do too much [damage] healing wise and damage wise
Shadow Dancer
16-04-04, 00:05
I agree to that...but how many people bother making a hybrid? they are useless in a team and can carry no secondary abilities. e.g hacking or implanting. They are solely for soloing and PES are alot easier to build, even they arn't as good as an endgame, I think its sort of fair, I dont' see it being too imbalanced at the moment. PPU spells are more the problem. I thik these monks spells are too easy to aim, and they do too much [damage] healing wise and damage wise
I don't think hybrids are any more useless in a team than tanks/pes/spies.
I did read them and I went to the trouble of posting the example to try and answer the question I thought you were asking. If I misunderstood your question then ignore my futile attempt to help you. No need to throw it in my face. Or a simple "Thanks Ray, but what I was unclear about was.." would do also. :(
em. Sorry Ray. I didn't mean to be rude.
*hugs* :angel:
aight so heres my calc
psi core, ds,attack 3, attack 2, apu 3 cloak = +51 apu -40 ppu
124 base apu= 295 point add is bonuses and oyu get 175 apu
100 base ppu(60 after chips/armor) cost 175 points
thats a total of 470 points used
10 mental from core/ds +30 from points
total would be
175 apu
60 ppu
40 mental with 24 power form ds and core
adjustments
173 apu
60ppu
50 mental and 24 power
171 apu
60ppu
50 mental 34 power
169 apu
60 ppu
50 mental 44 power
168 apu
67 ppu
40 mental 24 power
165 apu
70 ppu
40 mental 24 power
160 apu
70ppu
50 mental 39 power
those are some combos you could do with maxed out with ds/and core and pa3
assuming the stats on croncom.com are correct.
alright so checking holy lightning
apu155
ppu60
mental 86
power 26
100% efficent use of skill points
Assuming your calcs are right, then you prove my point when saying that you can't cap HL along with being able to cast shelter/haz.
:p
What is it with people saying hybrids are useless in team fights anyway? As has been mentioned as being a key part of the problem with balancing hybrids, there isn't a great deal of difference between Blessed Heal/Shelter and Holy Heal/Shelter. A blessed defence hybrid in a team has the second best heal and second best shields of any class, can still damage boost, and can hunt down stragglers or defend himself. An apu biased hybrid should be able to cast HAB with a psi 3 on, he can noob buff with his own S/D/H if he wants while still casting HL. A ppu-based hybrid still has part of the team benefit of a PPU and an apu-based hybrid still retains some of the advantages if an APU. Which is exactly how it should be, right?
Which is exactly how it should be, right?No argument there. I have posted ideas in this thread, but really, hybrids are OK atm. Don't tell KK though, they are sure to fuck with them then. :p
The main thing I'd like to see to be honest is that there's only really two hybrid choices, one very defence oriented with almost no offense, and the other going pretty good offense but with at best PE defence. There's no in between, which seems strange because the natural hybrid would seem to be 50/50.
I also think hybrids should be able to use regular anti spells. They shouldn't be able to use the holy versions but for example, antibuff is never used, only holy antibuff is. I think HAB should be the APU module while AB should be aimed at hybrids. This would give them a bit more of a role in OP wars, with their higher defence making up for the longer cast time. Brings in a use for those psi rares clogging up the pool as well.
Actually, I can use the regular antishield, but cba to spend a whole pool of mana on a PPU that will rebuff in 1.726 seconds. It's a tad pointless.
I can see my use in an OP war tho. Run around anti-shielding all the enemies.
If the actual rare anti-buff was made useable by hybrids, that would be cool. It would have to be TL87 tho, no hybrid would go higher than that unless they like being turrets.
johngreen2000
16-04-04, 01:02
Assuming your calcs are right, then you prove my point when saying that you can't cap HL along with being able to cast shelter/haz.
:p
oh dont worry I wasnt agreeing or disagreeing with anyone I was merely stating the facts and the best possible setup I could come up with so that people could make an educated guess weather its possible to get the setups people are claiming to get.
well SD my point remains as hybrids can't hack, or implant no secondary skill, they are harder to build then PEs even though they are much better. A tank is still very good in a team fight (albeit a bit nerfed now), next to APU (the best in a team with PPU). Spies remain off the topic as thye can tradeskill and do many other things, and spies are underpowered I agree, but it doesn't mean hybrids or PEs are overpowered. Moreover spies can snipe, and drone which are underpowered as well, but that remains out of the topic.
And the game is evidence, if hybrids were so good we'd see them running around in op fights, and pking people and such. They are not very good solo pkers because if somebody got a team to catch you you can't stealth and have to die. and as I said earlier building hybrid isn't easy to build they arn't usefull until 80+ psi, requires many 5 slot spells to become profecient in dmg percentage. While a 2 slot weapon for a capped PE is good enough, and a capped or near cap Pe is much easier to hit then a near capped hybrid.
And to solve the problems PPU spells just need a little nerf. That S/D can replace an entire layer of tank armor. The problem lies in the PPU spells with blessed defence, nobody can scratch a well built hybrid 1 v 1.
edit: and with the constraint on the quick slots hybrids are very difficult to use...people who bother creating and spending much time on a hybrid should be paid off. not only its hard to use a hybrid, building it is hard as well and if they are on a edge over PEs and tanks in soloing then so be it. Its not as great deal of a problem compared to the PPU. In team alright hybrids will have no time to buff other people up. they'd have to hit tab every two or three spells for their psi pool. Yeah they are overpowered, but neccesary to nerf them? nah. You wanna beat a hybrid?, skill psi use on a PE and tl3 heal on him and a quick DB. bye bye hybrid with pain easer. Use TSG for tanks and tl 3 heal too. Its not impossible...
Since you got most of it anyway iīm going to post my Hybrid Setup
Thatīs the way i LIKE to play a Hybrid, itīs not built to be a PPU, itīs not built to be a PPU, itīs built to be a BETTER PE
(apart from the tradeskill-thingy mentioned earlier)
http://www.elchtown.de/hybrid.jpg
This is my APU-Based Hybrid
The problem is you cannot see the finer points of the setup by just looking at this picture.
Look, i got 76 PPU ... why 76 you might ask when 75 is logical ? Why do i have 84 MST ? Well, let me show you ...
Put on APU-PA1 -> You can use HL / FA (no runcast tho) and are STILL able to use Holy Damageboost (61 PPU)
Put on APU-PA2 -> You can still SD yourselfes as you got 56 PPU now which is just enough for shelter
Put on APU-PA3 + Psi-Combat 3 -> 167 APU (+/- ... dunno exactly atm) - Runcast HL / Use Holy Antibuff / Opfight-Viable
But this ainīt the end of it ... taken further (-> MC5) you can go crazy
http://www.elchtown.de/hybrid_ds3.jpg
Now take a look at the Resists ... think about the PA-Swapping ... wow, cool eh ?
This setup is optimized for Duels ... for Opfight / Maxing Damage you could swap the Moveon or the PP Resistor for a Psi Attack 3
So, what do you think ?
Imho itīs a playable hybrid that is very much fun and is not overpowered ...
Original monk
16-04-04, 12:14
a decent hybrid shouldnt have to swap/remove PA's :/ its annoying and sucks out fun ... a decent hybrid doesnt need a stupid PA :)
but cause of the PA's and the ability to push youre apuskills (overclocked PA hybrids) i think KK never gonna make decent PA-less hybrids as i used to know ... and i dont mean paralysis and HL hybrids no ...
i mean the the ones discussed about in post #42 (by egeon): the september 2002 hybrids ...
these are the ones that made me fall in love with hybrids :/
bah, nm
i get depressed when i see my current hybrid and all the current sucky hybridsetups :/ not like there unviable but common...
i hope all the people that whined for hybrids sooooo much are happy now that they where able to diminish a class by letting it be fucked around with for such a long time, not that reakktor goes freely: nono, they should of made a choise about hybrids 2 years ago: do we want em or not ?
i think there still not sure now ...
first: everyone was a hybrid -> then whiners on the forum -> majour hybrid nerf -> hybrids gone -> kamichips/kamihybrids -> majour kamihybridnerf -> hybrids gone -> hybrid unnerf (spellnerf .. even worse then the first -30% nerf ..) -> back some hybrids ...
and now ?
Hybrids need no changing now, I didn't see the neccesity of removing the kami hybrids, as they were rare and cool sights if one could achieve such a feat. It is the epitome of monk power. Hybrids still remain as cool sight, but minus the whirly whirlies
___T-X____
16-04-04, 14:58
A monk that uses there skills to cast APU and PPU spells without using Parashock.
Lame hybrid - The ones that freeze you, DB, the Stack you with spells, rince and repeat.
As I've played a hybrid since the latest hybrid nerf/unnerf I've come to a conclusion.
The blessed hybrid as it stands today is somewhat underpowered. That is with holy energy halo and blessed heal/shelter.
I would say reintroduce the PPW bonus back to its former level on DS and Core, which would yeild +8 PPW in total. I think this would be enough to balance them.
I did try this on the test server, when they reduced the hybrid APU/PPU malus but had not yet removed the PPW extra bonus. I found that hybrid actually well balanced.
What was overpowered was the kami hybrids, but they are gone now with the -PPU kami malus.
Or am I mistaken?
Regarding the basic heal/shelter and HL hybrid; I did try that during a while, and it's not viable. I tweaked and tweaked, but the basic heal and shelter are not worth it. By the time you have slapped a heal on yourself you are dead (even when you get the heal on you last only a second more since the heal ticks way to slow). AND, you cannot runcast the HL which makes you even more dead :p
The hybrid which I described above can at least runcast when strafing, moving backwards and walking (not running if you have good speed).
make psi combat buff selfcast, then would be everything alright ;)
Regarding the basic heal/shelter and HL hybrid; I did try that during a while, and it's not viable. I tweaked and tweaked, but the basic heal and shelter are not worth it. By the time you have slapped a heal on yourself you are dead (even when you get the heal on you last only a second more since the heal ticks way to slow). AND, you cannot runcast the HL which makes you even more dead :pYou can't go for HL. Energy beam is where it's at. The right setup can let you runcast it with 300 pool. Another thing very important for a basic shelter/ebeam hybrid is what you do with your con, you need to get close to PE resists. Ditch the exp psi 2 (or 3) for a ppr or moveon, and work around that. Remember you are gonna have 102 base agil if you can cap dex, so 30 base ath or so is plenty.
You can't go for HL. Energy beam is where it's at. The right setup can let you runcast it with 300 pool. Another thing very important for a basic shelter/ebeam hybrid is what you do with your con, you need to get close to PE resists. Ditch the exp psi 2 (or 3) for a ppr or moveon, and work around that. Remember you are gonna have 102 base agil if you can cap dex, so 30 base ath or so is plenty.
Ditch the exp2 and exp3? Isn't that going to gimp your PPW terribly :)
If you're still trying for HL, yes. :p
The exp controllers also kill your str and force resist, which isn't a good idea.
Ditch the exp2 and exp3? Isn't that going to gimp your PPW terribly :)Nah if you are using both, you only need ditch one, unless you want both ppr and moveon. I wouldn't do that myself, a monk should remain a monk, not some fucked-up PE with a cloak. Of course, I guess theres nothing wrong with that. About the PPW, my hyb has 73 base, so the loss of the exp 2 did nothing to me.
Clownst0pper
17-04-04, 20:43
Increase the mana cost of heal from standard tl3 to blessed to holy and reduce its ROF.. Too many shit players stay alive just because they get heal spammed on them, and its highly annoying :o
it takes too long to work out a decent hybrid setup atm. they should put it back to wat it used to be but with maybe without a rezz
@ Clown, you mean self-cast or foreign-cast?
If self-cast, maybe their skill is buffmanagement, not fighting persay.
At any rate, a very old exploit still exists that has been brought to my attention concerning heal...I can only hope it's fixed sometime soon, although the accursed glitch has been ingame forever. :o
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