Is parashock a good thing? (take a step back and read first)

[Q`alooaith]

Ok, let's guage what the comunity think's of parashock as a whole, let's keep the is suck's because stuff outta here.. I just want to know if you think it is a good thing or a not so good thing...





Now let's see, don't flame this thread, I don't realy care weather parashock stay's or not in it's current form..

[Sleawer]

Good question.
I advocate for a change on this thing, however I don't think that parashock itself is the problem. There are serious issues concerning the caster of that module, and the counter measures provided.

However I do not expect from KK to think outside that tiny box in which they seem to dwell... and since they tend to choose the easiest solution, why should not we?

[Q`alooaith]

true that, parashock is not the whole problem, yet everyone look's at it first and formost..


So now, from what you've just said spin up some fixes to what you think the problem is, Without altering parashock.

[Sleawer]

It depends on what you mean by not altering parashock.
It might require 'bigger' alterations in other areas, some which people might disagree, and most likely will, or will not share.

I tend to see things from a particular multi-point of view tho, so when the predominant point of view in these forums is the 'one sided', you will find it rather pointless, and frustating.

Actually, I don't think I should disagree with what the majority wants anyway.

[naimex]

Well..

If parashock didnt decrease mouse sensitivity that much, it wouldn´t be that much of a problem..


A person with legs blown off can still turn and aim, but has difficulties moving enough to make a difference..

A person shocked, can´t move enough to make a difference, and cant turn to aim..


But to find an alternative as you request to fix the problem, rather than go at the parashock.

I say.. (including para alteration solutions)

Solution 0 :
Remove para.

Solution 1 :
Make para stop decreasing mouse sensitivity.

Solution 2 :
Make it possible to make your setup to counter parashock (the anti shock drugs are shitty as hell, you take 1 single pill and you get insta drugflash.. oh great.. so I go from not able to move or turn, to not able to move properly or see, it´s just not an option to take anti shock drugs.)

Solution 3 :
Implement static shields or static belts or something... An item or spell creating a static field around the caster, preventing parashock.

Solution 4 :
Live with it




Those are the options I am able to see regarding parashock, and getting it fixed.

[Q`alooaith]

I like solution 3, expanded properly it could work pretty well..

[meta-x]

1 - Keep antishock drugs the same, but make it constructable/clonable.
2 - if stun maintained till the end (eg no drugs, no anti stun), put a psi manip of 30 sec to prevent another stun after this one. If stun is removed before its end, no immunity will follow.

[Shadow Dancer]

I voted it's bad in it's current form. I don't think it's a good thing. I think it's used as an offensive tool, and at great efficiency at that. As an offensive tool the ppu doesn't deserve it, as a defensive tool( :rolleyes: ) he certainly doesn't need it.


I guess if it won't be removed it can be tweaked. But I don't see KK tweaking it anytime soon, or even effectively. I have a hard time seeing any justification for the spell being in the ppu's hands in the first place, let alone in the game.

[Q`alooaith]

So Soul eater, without altering the parashock spell, how would you ballence it?

[Shadow Dancer]

So Soul eater,


lmao


How can I balance the spell without altering it?

Or did you mean without removing it?

[Q`alooaith]

without touching the parashock spell..


So you can use counter's, change the anti shock drug's, go wild, but try and not alter the parashock, maybe tweak it a little, but I'd rather see some creativity..


Remove it is so old, change it is so old... So try and make it interssting..

[Shadow Dancer]

Ok. Well then I would make antishock drugs cheaper, stack, and give no drug flash.

[hivemind]

I too would try that solution.

Make the anti-drug like a stamina booster. Stackable, intsa-usable, and no flash.

[XSuneX]

Why would some one want to stun some one into not being able to move anyways?

So as not to kill him? Why not? They just come back with the GR.

I can only see using it were death was permanent and you would go to jail or wors for fraging or killing someone.

Or if it was the closest thing to the only power I had over someone, is that it?

[meta-x]

If its stackable, it makes the spell useless. No flash seems sensible.

[funkeymonkey]

I wanna see all types of frezing removed. I also dont like that force dmg slows u to a crawling pace, i reckon that should be changed but i doubt theres many that want that gone as well.

[LiL T]

Parra is bad I will not even poll on it it simply neededs removed completely if not made pvm only

[Dribble Joy]

I concur.

The very nature of parashock/freezers has no place in NC other than PvM, due to it's utter destruction of the basis that this games PvP system is based upon.

[steweygrrr]

I concur.

The very nature of parashock/freezers has no place in NC other than PvM, due to it's utter destruction of the basis that this games PvP system is based upon.

I agree.

I am also intrigued by Naimex's suggestion number 3. However instead of having an antistun effect, why not make use of that COMPLETELY useless resist PSI stat. Make resist PSI affect stun duration. My other suggestion involves a slight change to the parashock effect which I will only post with Q's permission.

[edit] OK actually maybe the resist PSI thing is a REALLY bad idea there as tanks will end up being amazingly gimped in the psi dept.

[Kal]

parashock has no place in a skill based game.

perhaps in pokemon or final fantasy ( --speed reduced by 10-- )

but not in neocron

if it HAS to stay then restore its old rof and mana cost and make it last about half a second so the ppu has to absolutely keep spamming you into the ground and do nothing else if they wanna keep you stuck

take it out already

[steweygrrr]

parashock has no place in a skill based game.

perhaps in pokemon or final fantasy ( --speed reduced by 10-- )

but not in neocron

if it HAS to stay then restore its old rof and mana cost and make it last about half a second so the ppu has to absolutely keep spamming you into the ground and do nothing else if they wanna keep you stuck

take it out already


Again I agree. But Kal, at the moment the question is what can we do without changing it or removing it. I'm not saying your response was a flame but there are a hundred others who WOULD flame you for saying that.

Speaking from a PPU's perspective god yes I love it as a defensive tool. When dumbasses try to team up 3 v me its amazingly handy to outrun them. But in PvP it has no place in its current form. I can take 3 maybe 4 of the opposing team effectively out of action in approximately 10 seconds and keep them that way for another 30. Hows that a fair fight?

No it either needs to go or be altered in some way that doesn't make skill go out of the window completely.

[metalangel]

Perhaps make anti-para drugs work like a potion, boosting your resistance... so if you're coming up to a PPU or expecting to be para'd, pop one as a preventative medication :lol:

I can't think of any other game that really did this... the only one I can think of off the top of my head is TFC, where you could be given hallucinations which were far more confusing (and amusing) than drug haze, and caltrops which would reduce your running speed until you got a health kit.

[Judge]

Personally... I don't think that we can make Parashock "better" without actually affecting the spell. These fucking freezer weapons have been plaguing us since the start of retail, lets please god just fucking well remove it. Give everyone who hands in a Holy Parashock spell 1 mil in compensation or something.

[enigma_b17]

personally i think its bad in its current form, with antishock drugs being so annoying to use as a they dont stop u from being parashocking immediately again, and b they give u a drug haze which is just wrong. If nothing is done about parashock then i would prefer something be done about the drugs so people have an effective counter measure

[Kal]

para doesnt really bother me at opp wars.

well, the old C I E opp wars anyway, we're pretty much gone now :(

if anyone was paraed they would have it off in under 3 seconds guarenteed.

its solo fighting thats the problem, with another ppu around you can take para off in the blink of an eye

[Oath]

Para is kos.

Nuff said.

[Shadow Dancer]

If its stackable, it makes the spell useless. No flash seems sensible.


How on earth does it make the spell useless?

You still get 1-2 seconds of being shocked, that's if you see it coming right away. Sometimes it's like 3-4 seconds, and in a group battle that's all the enemy needs to destroy you since you're moving so slow.

[Aziraphale]

I can't think of any other game that really did this... the only one I can think of off the top of my head is TFC, where you could be given hallucinations which were far more confusing (and amusing) than drug haze, and caltrops which would reduce your running speed until you got a health kit.

Oooh yeah :D hallucinations should be implemented for some drugs, i like that idea a lot. It was great fun in TFC, sometimes I spammed myself with Hallu grenades just to make things more interesting ^_^

[t-bird]

i'm a jupi-ppu and think the para is ok in his current form

*going back to german board*

[steweygrrr]

para doesnt really bother me at opp wars.

well, the old C I E opp wars anyway, we're pretty much gone now :(

if anyone was paraed they would have it off in under 3 seconds guarenteed.

its solo fighting thats the problem, with another ppu around you can take para off in the blink of an eye


When you are in a multiclan war (or vs TJ) though and things get a bit 5 v 1, then parashock is annoying as hell because you have it coming from AT LEAST 3 different PPU's. Then you get 3 people trying to take a parashocked PPU down (I am always a target because I like to get into the thick of things, I don't hang back) which quite frankly is inescapable and I don't stand a chance.

Now if PS only did 1/3 of the supergluing it did in PvM, just as all weapons do 1/3 of the damage they do in PvM then I would have AS MUCH of a problem with it.

[MrChumble]

I'm was pretty anti para until last nights op wars. I tried thinking how they'd go if there was no para in the game, and to be honest I think they would have sucked.
Para blows for dueling, where there's a fairly even fight then Mr PPU comes blundering in squirting his glue cannon; but in op wars it seems perfectly balanced, even vital really.
Perhaps Para should only work on mobs (any zone) and on runners in warzones. It would make no RP sense...so nothing new there :p

[Kal]

stewey in at least 1 opp war just me and a ppu (best ppu i've ever seen or played with) killed the whole clan of 10 single handed.
thats pretty 5 on 1 if you ask me.

on top of that it was on my PE (lotech at the time) and i was parashocked at least 10 times.

i aimed and pulled the trigger, and he kept me alive.
now this proves that a good ppu is more than enough of a remedy for para in opp wars.


now later on in the same war they managed to catch me with shelter and deflector down, as we wernt on teamspeak i was dead before i could get a heal.

there were about 5 enemy left vs a tl 20 uziel smg using ppu.

he killed them all by dropping a turret, casting para when they were in front of it and chipping away with his smg.

This is a case where a good ppu uses para to his advantage against less experianced opponents (all capped or near chars, just not as pvp proficiant).

without para this opp war just wouldnt have been the same, and yes it does have its up sides. we just need a reduction of the effect (i mean at LEAST 1/3 of what it is now) and a beter way of remedying it.

[Clownst0pper]

That is easily done, and APU and PPU team can wipe a clan out, parashock, dmg boost, good as dead on there behalf, and just make sure u pack some pills. If ur using TS its 1million times easier :D

Ive yet to hear a good reason to keep parashock..

[Kal]

on top of that it was on my PE (lotech at the time)
:p




12345 (stupid forum rules)

[Promethius]

I dont think removing para is a realistic option. Alot of areas would be affected and certain classes would be ALOT harder to kill (melee, PPU's, etc). Also how the shock affects mouse sensitivty, I think that should be there. I mean if someone stuns you, it wouldn't just affect your legs.

Instead of trying to tweak with current stuns. Why not just come up with new affects for parashock. I.E. When paraed your current weapon out it put away and your screen goes blank for a second. Keep in mind tho only a second. So it confuses and disorientates the victim and utterly stuns them.



-Prom

[Scikar]

stewey in at least 1 opp war just me and a ppu (best ppu i've ever seen or played with) killed the whole clan of 10 single handed.
thats pretty 5 on 1 if you ask me.

on top of that it was on my PE (lotech at the time) and i was parashocked at least 10 times.

i aimed and pulled the trigger, and he kept me alive.
now this proves that a good ppu is more than enough of a remedy for para in opp wars.


now later on in the same war they managed to catch me with shelter and deflector down, as we wernt on teamspeak i was dead before i could get a heal.

there were about 5 enemy left vs a tl 20 uziel smg using ppu.

he killed them all by dropping a turret, casting para when they were in front of it and chipping away with his smg.

This is a case where a good ppu uses para to his advantage against less experianced opponents (all capped or near chars, just not as pvp proficiant).

without para this opp war just wouldnt have been the same, and yes it does have its up sides. we just need a reduction of the effect (i mean at LEAST 1/3 of what it is now) and a beter way of remedying it.

Ahhh, so para is perfectly balanced, you just have to have a PPU up your ass 24/7?

[Kal]

yeah thats the problem, and the reason its ok at opp wars

[Scikar]

yeah thats the problem, and the reason its ok at opp wars

...so it's OK that you can't go to an OP war without a PPU? :wtf:

[Q`alooaith]

You can go to an op war without a PPU..

you just have to take other thing's to make up the diffrence, rhino's are pretty effective, yes anti vehical launcher's kill them but they can down a PPU with a little help..

a properly organised combined arm's force can take down a team filled with gene tank's and psi monks.

[petek480]

Parashock isn't good in it's current form and I don't care what anyone says. Any spell or anything for that matter that takes skill out of the game is bad imo.

[Dribble Joy]

I dont think removing para is a realistic option. Alot of areas would be affected and certain classes would be ALOT harder to kill (melee, PPU's, etc).
Like I said in another thread, keeping in para in order to 'fix' another balance issue is not valid. PPU defence is a sparate issue entirely.
Focus on the concept of Para itself.


Also how the shock affects mouse sensitivty, I think that should be there. I mean if someone stuns you, it wouldn't just affect your legs.

Exactly the reason why it needs to go.

[Biznatchy]

You can go to an op war without a PPU..

you just have to take other thing's to make up the diffrence, rhino's are pretty effective, yes anti vehical launcher's kill them but they can down a PPU with a little help..

a properly organised combined arm's force can take down a team filled with gene tank's and psi monks.

Yes you can go to a OP war without ppu.... you will just lose.... badly. But that aside what does that have to do with parashock. Even without parashock you still wont go to OP wars without ppus. Well maybe you will but you will still lose.

[Forget My Name]

As a PPU, I most certainly need parashocks.

99% of the time, I walk around unbuffed because it is a pain in the ass to cast it every two minutes. So, for me, I get jumped all the time unbuffed and I get my ass handed to me. The only thing that saves me? Parashocks. I shock and -hopefully- I can still run faster than the person attacking me.

I also play a melee tank, and honestly, I run so fast that I cant hit other people. Sounds stupid, but Ishock people so I can hit then NOT because they are faster, but because I am soo damned fast and my comp is top end, meaning I get massive FPS and I run so smooth, there is no lag for me. If the target is gone, he is gone, there is no avatar lag I can hit.

Also, just for now, i need parashock because the minute anyone begins to MOVE from melee, I cant even do them damage due to the game stopper bug of melee not being able to hit moving targets.

For now, parashocks are just fine. Only because the game engine isn't really designed for high speed combat.

[petek480]

As a PPU, I most certainly need parashocks.

99% of the time, I walk around unbuffed because it is a pain in the ass to cast it every two minutes. So, for me, I get jumped all the time unbuffed and I get my ass handed to me. The only thing that saves me? Parashocks. I shock and -hopefully- I can still run faster than the person attacking me.

You should try casting those nifty little ppu spells ppu get instead of trying to para and run away.

[Forget My Name]

You should try casting those nifty little ppu spells ppu get instead of trying to para and run away.

You mean...

I am walking, and get beat on out of nowhere by runner X. I go from my massive 280 life to like, 90, by the time I get a heal off. Now, I have to sit there and just buff while being attacked. Woops, too bad I stuck around, cuz I just got debuffed by his apu friend ( happens alot to me ). Maybe I should have just ran form the get go?

I am ppu. I am not ment to be some sort of super tank that sits there and mocks players. If i get attacked, I run.

I can either heal and run or parashock and run. One wasnt ment for running, while the other is. I will shock thank you.

[petek480]

You mean...

I am walking, and get beat on out of nowhere by runner X. I go from my massive 280 life to like, 90, by the time I get a heal off. Now, I have to sit there and just buff while being attacked. Woops, too bad I stuck around, cuz I just got debuffed by his apu friend ( happens alot to me ). Maybe I should have just ran form the get go?

I am ppu. I am not ment to be some sort of super tank that sits there and mocks players. If i get attacked, I run.

I can either heal and run or parashock and run. One wasnt ment for running, while the other is. I will shock thank you.
You're walking along and get attacked. So now you're down to 90 hlt. You get a heal off your health starts to go up. Then you cast shelter and then deflector. Putting another heal on you while moving around mind you. Then you cast your longs. You're back up to full buffed health before you know it. No need for mocking or parashocking and we're all happy now:)

And about the apu debuffing. With a little practice apus aren't much of a problem for ppus.

[Scikar]

You mean...

I am walking, and get beat on out of nowhere by runner X. I go from my massive 280 life to like, 90, by the time I get a heal off. Now, I have to sit there and just buff while being attacked. Woops, too bad I stuck around, cuz I just got debuffed by his apu friend ( happens alot to me ). Maybe I should have just ran form the get go?

I am ppu. I am not ment to be some sort of super tank that sits there and mocks players. If i get attacked, I run.

I can either heal and run or parashock and run. One wasnt ment for running, while the other is. I will shock thank you.

You're not meant to be a super tank, but with only a little effort, you are. It takes just slightly over 2 seconds to cast S/D, and you can cast them with a little stagger, barely breaking a run. You can't spare that every 2 minutes? 10 seconds every 10 minutes is all it takes for long buffs. You can't spare that either?

So basically we should keep parashock in because FMN is too lazy to recast his buffs every 2 minutes? :wtf:

[Heavyporker]

cba to read entire post, but I went through first page -

fyi - you can make antishock drugs from medical substances with recycle skill, there's recipes for them

in my opinion, antishock drugs should have a +1 remove stun and a 15 second duration, more than fair for any situation. You want longer antistun, stay near a PPU.

how about just reducing the movement malus % of parashocks from, what, 80% now to 60% for holy paralysis, with all other parashocks and shockers being reduced accordingly. BUT... BUT - make the shocker weapons do more damage (oh, yes, considerably more, at least 2x more. Then you'd have SOME use for those freezer guns. I mean, there's those xray damage mods, be fun to have a pure xray weapon.)

[Shadow Dancer]

You mean...

I am walking, and get beat on out of nowhere by runner X. I go from my massive 280 life to like, 90, by the time I get a heal off. Now, I have to sit there and just buff while being attacked. Woops, too bad I stuck around, cuz I just got debuffed by his apu friend ( happens alot to me ). Maybe I should have just ran form the get go?



First of all it's your fault for walking around unbuffed. You may not like buffing every 2 mins, but not buffing is the price you pay for getting hit hard when you're alone.

Secondly, massive 280 life? You should have tons of life with level 3 buffs. And those last 10 minutes, so absolutely no excuse not to use them.

Third, tired of s/ding and all that crap? Well at the very least just cast shelter. Holy lightning and CS are the big damage dealers IMO.

Fourth, you act like you get 100% surprised. How rare is that? I rarely ever get caught COMPLETELY by surprise by another runner. You should know who your enemies are. And be cautious of all hostile faction runners that you don't know.

As for parashock running away. I fail to see how you have the time to cast a parashock on them and somehow escape with 80 hp. Parashock takes longer(and more mana) than shelter or even just a heal which is enough to escape one person. Also you can't exactly run/cast parashock. SO while you're standing still and casting parashock, somehow their not hitting you? Also i'm pretty sure everyone has at least 1 anti-shock drug. So you would have to shock them probably 2-4 times just to run away because most people have antishock. It would be far easier just to cast heal real quick then a shelter or deflector.

[Devils Grace]

Every change or solution to para or countermeasures to para will be hard to get all ppl agreement, so i prefer the damn thing removed

its not worth for nottin cept glue ur ass to the ground, and with that make u defensless, and removes your ability to use any skill u may have

[Promethius]

To me the only plausable reason for using para is to run away. Therefor I suggest PPU's recieve a new spell which can help PPU's get away easier. Possibly some sort of wall they can cast (behind themselves) so woever is chasing them will have to run around. Im sure theres better ideas than this magical wall (rip off of bone wall from D2). I wouldn't mind a few PPUs justifying how they use parashock in peppar 1 zone line when they have no offensive player along with them?

So I'd say remove para and give PPU's a new tool to get away.

Also someone said they needed parashock so they could get away in a situation involving APus anti-buffing. Any decent PPU can survive a single apu antibuffing and its not hard surviving 2 apus antibuffing. (its been done before even while standing still and haveing the 2 apus try to kill the PPU).

True: PPUs CAN use parashock to get outa a sticky situation.
True: Many PPUs use it offensivly aswell (Pking with a team, OP wars)
False: PPUs NEED parashock to survive


-Prom

[Shadow Dancer]

True: PPUs CAN use parashock to get outa a sticky situation.



Oh the irony. :p



I think my idea is the best, :p. A spell that creates an aura around the ppu that parashocks anyone that strikes the ppu. While in effect, the ppu can't cast spells either.


Could use some tweaks. What do ya'll think?

[hinch]

i'm a jupi-ppu and think the para is ok in his current form

*going back to german board*


so am i i think it needs turning down a BIT and i stress A BIT

appart from that stop whining

[Kugero]

remove para completely and replace it with a spell that randomly warps the PPU somewhere on the map so he can 'escape'.

wait. nevermind. thats zoning :rolleyes:

seriously - I would be happy with just stackable anti-drugs (reduced or no flash), anti-drugs that had flash but prevented paraspam for a duration or as somebody else suggested a while ago (Scikar?) change para to drain stamina ...

[Dribble Joy]

Para draining sta is one of the only ideas that I will... acept that keeps para ingaem and in PvP.

Though instead of draining it, it either works like a weapon that takes sta rather than hp, or increases the rate that sta is used up by the victim?