View Full Version : Researching, a new order of things (idea, tradeskills)
Q`alooaith
10-04-04, 13:10
*Grab's Amfest's idea and run's with a tangent of it*
Well anyway, Researching right now is a little dull, and has no real effect of the item's built, you barely make the BP and it's the same as if you could make them with no effort.
AmFest's thread insipired me to try a diffrent idea out from my normal skew, anyway..
First we add a quality to finished BP's, this has a few effect's desribed later..
Researching fail rate's would now be cut down to the same scale as build fail rates, making it more viably low level...
Now quality of BP's would effect the chancces of getting slots, but also effect the finished stats, but wait there's more, when researching the item the researcher can pick which is the favored stat, with a chance to boost the favored stat of the BPed weapon by 1-5% this extra would ignore the qualty cap when building... But to ballence this when boosting a stat the chances of other stat's dropping or the weight increasing is higher (dropping 5-10%, weight doubling and such)...
Now how's this help low level researchers, well here's the fun part, when trying to boost a stat your research skill is a minus to the chance to do it, the base chance being 75%+TL of the item (so with 0 research skill yopu'd alway's pass)... This is what I call the aprentices revenge, the higher your skill the more stuck in your way's you are, the lower your skill the less your chance of doing it right but the better your chance of pulling a nice trick or two out of your hat...
Oh wait, now high level should get somthing.... hmmm oh yes..
Now the chances of mucking up and getting slightly worse stats and weight increases and so on, are bassed on 25%-item TL + research skill...
So if you where making a TL 25 weapon with a research skill of 0*, you'd alway's muck one things up, the chance to muck a second stat up would be 50%-item TL + reseach skill, and the chance to muck up a thrid would be 75%-item TL+ research skill... This mean's higher skilled researcher's would mess up less often, maybe even never, but also have no chance to make weapons better..
So what's everyone think?
*(impossible yes, go away it's an easy example no room for your simple brain to muck up reading it)
Glok, why don't you like my idea, please post.... *hug's public poll option*
Yes I like it but I think high lvl researchers should still have a chance to increase stats maybe? but then again I guess there would be those people who have mules that will just sit there to get that sweet stat breaker then do a crapload of consturction to get 5 slots. hmm I'm in indescion cause I guess it would be abused :\
Q`alooaith
10-04-04, 13:25
Maybe make researching XP much greater but make BP's a more challenge task, rather than a two min job, make them a little longer, maybe more data cubes for higher TL item's or longer times, though I'm not for longer time's personaly..
Make it a little more like researching is like building the weapon, not somthing you want to do unless you can hock the item..
Diffrent TL cubes maybe, with higher TL verson's costing much more, so people would be less inclinded to make a new BP every time, it'd help curb it..
Yes, diffrent TL BP's for diffrent TL item's, higher TL one's costing much more (in the range of 50K or so for a TL 100 cube 100K for a TL120 cube or some such)
Aziraphale
10-04-04, 13:35
Yes! YES! Anything to make researching a less fucking mindnumbingly dull job.
And no, under no circumstances should you increase the time it takes to res an item.
Q`alooaith
10-04-04, 14:42
Athon, Glok..
anyone else who is thinking of voting no, please can you post to say why you don't like the idea...
I don't mind if you don't like my idea's, I do mind if you just vote no but don't two hoot's either way.
Datacubes as they are now stack. These datacubes won't stack, and this makes researching way too dependent on luck. As it is now, you just have a resser whip you off 50 BPs, and that's it. Boring for the resser, yes, but simple too (I tip ressers a LOT of dosh). This idea, while good in theory, just makes things too complicated.
Q`alooaith
10-04-04, 14:52
Datacubes as they are now stack. These datacubes won't stack, and this makes researching way too dependent on luck. As it is now, you just have a resser whip you off 50 BPs, and that's it. Boring for the resser, yes, but simple too (I tip ressers a LOT of dosh). This idea, while good in theory, just makes things too complicated.
But that's the idea, rather than have a researcher whip off 50 BP's, you have him whip off two or three, and if he's high level then there'd be no side effect's and maybe a better slot chance..
If he's not so skilled he might boost one of the weapon's stat's a little, he might also make it weight twice as much, but you win some lose some... :D
Thw whole point is to make it a real tradskill, somthing where researcher's can make a name, but also ballenced so the highest skill level researcher is not the best alway's for the job..
By your reasoning nothing in the game can be changed because it would be too complex, as the argument can be made for anything, the gel's a lubes for tradskill's, everyone complained about em, but look it's made it a far more interseting game.
But think what a pain it would be for the constructors... you bring him your shiny +50% slot chance datacube, and he proceeds to build it, and look! no luck, 0 slots, sorry. It would make the already insane slot-hounds ingame who know nothing about construction even more of a pain.
Q`alooaith
10-04-04, 14:57
But think what a pain it would be for the constructors... you bring him your shiny +50% slot chance datacube, and he proceeds to build it, and look! no luck, 0 slots, sorry. It would make the already insane slot-hounds ingame who know nothing about construction even more of a pain.
why, you just have to +ignore them.
there will alway's be slot hounds, they will alway's want to get 5 sloted item's, no matter if this idea happen's or not will not change the fact they know nothing of construction or research..
I like my stacking BPs. :(
How can I store hundreds of BPs if this is implemented? I would have to dedicate entire apartments to BPs only. And what about the reject BPs, the ones that come out with lower slot chances, or reduced quality chances? Just toss them in plaza?
Q`alooaith
10-04-04, 15:05
I like my stacking BPs. :(
How can I store hundreds of BPs if this is implemented? I would have to dedicate entire apartments to BPs only. And what about the reject BPs, the ones that come out with lower slot chances, or reduced quality chances? Just toss them in plaza?
ahhhh, but you hide what each positive and negative effect is..
So you have BP's with quality, higher quality mean's it's better chance of having good effect's, lower higher chance that somthing's wrong with it...
And what's wrong with having BP's take up space, this idea is to reduce the number of BP's you need to carry..
Also note, it would not effect weapon part BP's, just weapon's drones, vehical's and so on..
So you could still stack 50 weapon part 10 BP's, but not 50 raygun rifle BP's.
A constructor doesn't have the ability to stack HIS created items unless it's weapon parts or such that he's created. Also if you get a lower quality there is still a chance that someone might buy it for a reduced cost. Think of thrift stores or blemish sales. As for slot chance. It was my understanding that it would ADD to the slot chance. If that were the case it would make slots more likely if you used a good researcher.
I'm curious what the other 2 people who voted No think. Why is this not a good idea?
I think slots should not be by chance.
Slots should be determined by skill and resources.
The more skill and resources you have and give into it, the more slots you can make on the item.
And how do you have a BluePrint of something and then it disapears after you make something from it? I guess that is just how the cunstructing machines work.
The problem with that Sune is that your suggestion would almost likely destroy the chances of Rares getting 3+ slots as everyone having 5-slot rares would make the term 'Rare' a contradiction.
so far athon, DonnyJepp, Glok, Kerion, retr0n have voted no
with the exception of Glok stating why he doesn't like it I"m curious as to why the others voted no :confused:
No compromise? What don't you like about it?
The problem with that Sune is that your suggestion would almost likely destroy the chances of Rares getting 3+ slots as everyone having 5-slot rares would make the term 'Rare' a contradiction.Yea and most of that is because of the way the game is setup. since it doesn't have random stat weaon drops or that construction doesnt' create random addition stats everyone will just go for the max stat 5 slot weapon cause that's all you can do. And though some like it I think it sucks cause it kills alot of the variety that could be there, and all anyone has to do is just make as many of that weapon as they can with mule tradeskillers till they get that 5 slotter and then they are done with it till they need another made.
Not a big fan of it. I woudn't however mind KK making research act like construct (in that the higher your skill, the faster things go).
It's a nice idea but its overly complicated. I have an app with nothing but bps in it. This would just mean I'd have to waste even more space for more bps. I'd be much happier if they reduced ress time for high level ressers. I mean, I ress at tl170, yet it takes a tl 63 gat as long as a tl90 T rare part. WTF is up with that?
Q`alooaith
11-04-04, 01:05
What do you mean waste more space with BP's, part BP's would take no more space, and well weapon BP's would have to be whiped for it to work properly :D ..
Why do you store a lot of weapon BP's in the first place? because you want to be able to have them built many time's over for slots..
this idea mean's you'd have a slightly better chance at slots if you had a high level researcher make the BP... and one from a low level researcher might be a little skewed, but it has a chance of being a little bit boosted in one area..
The idea is to bring research in line with const in term's of cost, as a TL 75 cube would cost a fair bit, so rather than researchers being the find any old one people, it'd let you ask a fair price for your service..
No I store bps of pretty much everything I find so that I have them incase needed. I dont stack them, and my cabinets are getting pretty full. I dont have them to get uber slots. I have them so if someone is after a bp of an item I can quickly whip some up.
It's a nice idea, but all it will do is make things overly complicated and cause more whiners. Now people wont just blame the cster when they dont get slots/only get 1 slot.
Q`alooaith
11-04-04, 01:13
the slot issuse is the buyer's issuse, just ignore them.
And if your not stacking BP's it won't muck you up, since the BP's won't take any more space to store in cabs.
It'd just mean you'd not be able to stack BP's of weapon's like you currently can, conster's can't stack built weapons, so why should researchers stack BP's...
Rember the cost's more in line with consting...
The main reason I store BPs is because researchers on Pluto are as rare as terminators. When I finally find one, sometimes after days, he gets a LOT of work and a big tip. To say nothing of trying to get rare parts ressed.
TBH, I only voted no because you added too many complications to what is basically a good idea. If, say, the ressers skill level ONLY made slot chances higher by a set amount, or only introduced one random stat bonus, it would be good still. But the random stat bonus must be a simple variable and constant depending on the ressers skill level, and any stat could get boosted upon construction, this way BPs would still stack.
To explain, say a TL200 resser would give every single BP he made of a TL87 item the chance to boost one stat by 10%. This would be one single variable in the BP, and thus they would still stack. Maybe in the info screen you would see 'TL30 BP +10%' and the recipie.
Now thats a better idea Glok. But it should only be for high level researchers (180-190+) as a bonus for speccing everything into ress.
Q`alooaith
11-04-04, 01:23
You both missed the point..
The idea was that higher Level researcher's would boost slot chance, lower level one's would have a chance to boost the level, while also mucking up one or two other stats..
So while being a higher level mean's you'd make better slot chance BP's, you'd not alter the stats much, which is basicaly a device so lower level researchers can get at least a small ammount of work from time to time..
And I firmly stand by TL data cubes, researching is a cheep tradskill, it should be more costly and valuble as well..
Lower level ressers get work from me... the other day I had a TL90 resser make me 40 TL87 BPs. I think he broke like 8 cubes, but cubes are cheap so who cares. He got a 50k tip and more lube than he knew what to do with. :)
Also that batch got me 3 3 slotters when I had them made. Slick.
It's a cheap tradeskill till you're researcher Es or high TL drones :lol:
Syph you can always just keep a certain make of bps that DO stack. throwing out or selling off low make BPs would be like getting rid of that 0slot weapon that didn't come out very well. Alot of people already do that. Although I admit selling to Yos or a vendor wont' work for that. But at least we're not suggesting they don't stack like weapons ;) Glok it seems you said this was a good idea but maybe if it was adjusted this way . . . so why did you vote no? and not yes but only if option? :p Well personally I think it should be if it's a high level researcher it SHOULD add to what already is the % chance of slots for a constructor. So it can only be good in the end. But a lower TL researcher might be able to extend a stat for a weapon and if let's say someone uses a slotenahcner and gets a bit of slots then you might be able to correct those lowered stats a bit and have a higher dmg output weapon in the end or an awesome handling weapon. I think it only can come out good in the end.
Q`alooaith
11-04-04, 01:37
Lower level ressers get work from me... the other day I had a TL90 resser make me 40 TL87 BPs. I think he broke like 8 cubes, but cubes are cheap so who cares. He got a 50k tip and more lube than he knew what to do with. :)
.
Not everyone is you.
and there's no point us going on like this, you say one thing I reply and you reply to that and it goes around and around...
MY idea is to make researching a tradskill, with higher TL data cubes costing more than lower TL ones, with lower fail chances and some other little boost's and tweaks here and there.
You might be a nice kind player, but then not everyone is, so best to give the selfish a reason to use lower skilled researchers somtimes.
Lower level ressers get work from me... the other day I had a TL90 resser make me 40 TL87 BPs. I think he broke like 8 cubes, but cubes are cheap so who cares. He got a 50k tip and more lube than he knew what to do with. :)
Also that batch got me 3 3 slotters when I had them made. Slick.
Q`alooaith: so rather than researchers being the find any old one people, it'd let you ask a fair price for your service.. You see that's possible BECAUSE it isn't like this idea. Would you do that for a constructor if it was a weapon? and not armor or an implant? the only thing you need a high lvl researcher for is for quickness (since they won't fail or bust cubes alot) or researcher techs
heh forgot to add but if you decide to use a low level researcher you might make off better by finding a stat raised that could help you in leveling or maybe in pvp if you can counter the drawbacks
and there's no point us going on like this, you say one thing I reply and you reply to that and it goes around and around...Isn't that the whole point? :D
I just think your version is too complicated. Not much else to say really.
You see that's possible BECAUSE it isn't like this idea. Would you do that for a constructor if it was a weapon? and not armor or an implant? the only thing you need a high lvl researcher for is for quickness (since they won't fail or bust cubes alot) or researcher techsWell, I used a TL120 cster that isn't capped in dex or int for a recent batch. He only barely capped quality. Slots happened to be lousy on that one, but it wasn't his fault, it was just luck.
I just think that even with these changes, people would still seek out the highest level resser they can find, perhaps even more so than now, since slots and quality would be tied to the skill of the resser. Lower level ressers would NEVER see work, not even from me. I need those stats as a hybrid, and I wouldn't ever give work to low level ressers anymore.
Q`alooaith
11-04-04, 01:50
So you voted no, but liked the idea?
:wtf:
I mean what are you thinking, there's a yes, but only if option... for the unenlightened that mean's maybe..
The idea is meant to be slightly compicated, it's meant to make researching more than just a find somone to click and so on.
So you'd not give a BP job to low level, even if they had a good chance to give you an item with 5% better stats, over and above the build cap, just because there's also a chance you might end up with a spell that has a little less handleing or, is double the weight..
I mean, you might not want to take that risk, but I would, and I'm sure other's would...
I voted no because I don't have any problems with the way ressing is now, except for the boredom factor for the poor ressers. Make researching faster, and give more xp is all I think needs to be done. :)
Can you imagine if it could also increase ammo capacity. So you might end up with a rapidfire weapon that has alot more room for ammo but weight is double. I'd dig that alot.
Q`alooaith
11-04-04, 02:03
Can you imagine if it could also increase ammo capacity. So you might end up with a rapidfire weapon that has alot more room for ammo but weight is double. I'd dig that alot.
ahhh somone inteligent enough to see the possiblitys..
You might end up getting a spell with higher RoF but more mana cost, or some other such, come tumble down the rabbit hole of possiblity's for a moment..
Um. Implying I am unintelligent does not a point make.
You know how people are in this game, only the best. Everyone would still be a stat whore, and rather than 5 slots, they would want five slots and the bigger clip. Monks would want their 5 slots and the RoF bonus. The situation wouldn't change, it would just add an extra variable which would in the end have no real effect since everyone would do exactly what they do now, try to get the best of the best.
actualy you might see more people running around without rares cause they got some more dmg or can do more dmg faster cause they have a larger clip or can control their weapon better cause of handling. This would only work on non rares. Also I think it would be very very hard to get 5 slots using a low tl researcher but you could always get ahold of a illegal construction slotenhancer to aid along with this.
Too much stuff to bother reading..
My idea to the idea presented :
-Skill based Blue Print Quality
-Blue Print Quality affecting Stats and Slots on build item
-Slotted blueprints (yes you heard me..)
The only problem I see with this is..
if its the best blueprint that determines the best items..
nobody.. NOBODY !!! would EVER use a low lvl researcher, and there would be NO work at all for them.
But I donīt know how to prevent that.
ahhh somone inteligent enough to see the possiblitys..
So not agreeing with your idea makes people unintelligent? Nice one :rolleyes:
Your idea is nice, but as I said it is to complex and I'm sure it'd be a bugger for KK to implement. As a resser I'd be much happier with quicker ress times for high end ressers, and a bit more XP. I've gotten my Int to 68 base almost purely from ressing ( I raised int and dex but speccing some cst and ress and ressing and building an assload of drones....gotta love op bonuses;)) but it has taken forever and a day to get there. I definately think tradeskilling should give higher XP than it currently does to make a pure tradeskiller viable.
So not agreeing with your idea makes people unintelligent? Nice one :rolleyes:
I think he was saying that cause I mentioned what could be possible with the idea in place.
Q`alooaith
11-04-04, 02:42
Um. Implying I am unintelligent does not a point make.
So not agreeing with your idea makes people unintelligent? Nice one :rolleyes:
No, I said somone inteligent enough to see the possiblitys, it don't make you stupid or anything, it just mean's you don't think the same way..
Also maybe make low level researcher's give a negative to slot chance but higher chance of random stat changes within 10% or what they would normaly be..
-edit, What amfest said...
Well, here's the way I see it as one of the few high level researchers on pluto.
:p
There are people who will go to other researchers, there are some who will come to me. Location is vital - though I have 213 skill unbuffed, I hardly get much business since I work out of the Pepper Park Subway Station.
Any medium skilled tradeskiller can get decent business based on placement, since Plaza 1 is a no-go for anti-city... You see people hanging in p2, p3, and p1 now... meaning more spots for people to trade.
I don't think there should be any pro's or con's which will make one more desirable than the other... I spent a long time leveling my tradeskiller, longer than the mediocre dude who already gets more business due to placement.
To be honest, I'm all for more interesting research, but unless it could done in a universally cool manner... I'd be happy with just lower research times. I for one don't enjoy spending nearly 2 minutes for a TL 120 BP.
Though the whole slot deal would be cool, I don't see it being done. I think KK likes the idea of slots being random at the current.
I'm not going to vote on this one.
Q`alooaith
11-04-04, 02:57
Marx, it'd never give you 100% chance of getting a slot, only a slightly boosted chance at higher level's..
And the lower level's would muck up the BP's giving a slight boost to one area and gimping another slightly...
So a higher level researcher get's you the item you want done with a better chance to slot when built.. a lower level one make's the item a little more, random...
Not a big fan of it. I woudn't however mind KK making research act like construct (in that the higher your skill, the faster things go).
Researching does go faster the higher you get. The problem is not that it doesn't go faster, the problem is that Research is 7 parts Rsch skill to 3 part INT (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?t=69477&page=1), whereas Const is 6 parts Const skill, 2.5 parts DEX, and 1 parts INT. If this is what impacts speed of the tradeskill, then a capped Spy constructor would always outperform a capped Spy or Monk researcher. What we want to do is either nerf construction speed (bad idea) or add a multiplier to research speed such that the 3 parts INT is equal, at 100 INT, to the speed of a 100 INT/100 DEX Spy constructori (good idea).
That's my theory on why it's so slow to rsch. My skill levels are almost the same in both (135 rsch in the city, 145 const), but I across the board am able to build far faster than I can research an item at any given TL. Even when I go to a lab and boost my Rsch skill to 160, I still don't research faster than I build a given TL item on my capped Spy.
As to the rest? No. Research is fine as it is. Making me carry around a bunch of different types of BPs for the same item, each with a marginal increase in stat or slot chances, is an utter waste of my time. It's bad enough I have to batch build for slots. Don't complicate matters by forcing us to batch build for a particular stat/slot combo.
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