View Full Version : WTF is wrong with ppl???
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/04/09/girl.handcuffed.ap/index.html
LMAO I saw that earlier today (CNN's web site is a regular stop). Fucking diseased and hilarious at the same time.
A girl steals a usa and they arrest her?? A 9 year old girl?? *wonders about americans* ;/
Let's not make this a national issue.
N
Lori Ventura, the mother of the child who owns the rabbit, said the girl has been involved in other incidents and needs help.
Eeehh those kids from next door, they're not right in the head I tells ya. :p
cornelius5
10-04-04, 01:54
Florida along with many other southern U.S. states shouldn't really be considerd america,,, more like a third world state.
Forget My Name
10-04-04, 02:14
Not only arrested, but beating by her parents.
I was beaten when I was her age when I got caught stealing things.
I dont steal anymore.
That last paragraph is very funny. Smacks of the parents coxing her into saying that so they can sue someone to make money.
I think its a drastic overaction on the hand of the police, but hey... Cops get bored too.
What is this world(america) comming to
I"ve seen and heard of things like this. though yes it is a lil much but stuff like that happens typically at the request of parents because a child is not taking things seriously. It's basically a "scare" tactic of sorts. Of course the news can blow it out of proportion and it sounds funky when you read it but alot of times it DOES work for children that are spoiled and don't understand the implications of doing something wrong. Parents sometimes use it alot. I mean haven't you heard your parent or another saying something like if you don't do this then I"m going to get that policeman to take you away. Santa isn't going to bring you presents. I"m gonna whip you. Father is going to whip you. The monster is going to get you. You know those sorta lines. It's just some parents actually follow thorugh or sometimes other parents that thing someone needs a lesson.
While its harsh, maybe it'll help her learn her lesson in that stealing and lying about it is wrong. Just letting her get away with it would've been worse IMO.
While its harsh, maybe it'll help her learn her lesson in that stealing and lying about it is wrong. Just letting her get away with it would've been worse IMO.
"arrested, handcuffed and questioned at a police station"
a 9 year old. who barely knows whats right and wrong. you are weird.
Sorry, but by the time you're nine you should know that taking things that aren't yours without permission is wrong. I know I knew that at that age. The article itself states that this child had problems with lying and theft, and this should nip in the bud.
Better to have a slightly scarring as a youth and nip the problem in the bud than let it go and have the child grow up to be a lying klepto.
wonder how high the bail was :rolleyes:
Its really lame to se this its a kid ffs a little girl that hardly doesnt know whats right or wrong, how much pranks didnt you do when you where 9? If you got cuffed for that I would been sentence for life :D
If you really want an insight on how weird the world is today goto
http://www.newsoftheweird.com/
point in case
In a 2003 issue of the American Journal of Roentgenology, two Seattle radiologists described a 35-year-old man with severe abdominal pain but normal vital signs, who was found to have "multiple" heads from Barbie dolls lodged in his small bowel, which he attributed to his pursuit of the pleasurable anal sensation he gets from excreting them. After a straight-laced description of how doll heads show up differently from other objects on X-rays, the authors advised radiologists to "keep in mind that human imagination may not follow clinical algorithms." [American Journal of Roentgenology, April 2003, p. 986]
That is one weird site Estabin.
According to the New York State Police, Stephen Pappadake, 17, was speeding (80 mph in a 30 mph zone) and passing multiple cars illegally on the morning of April 29, 2003, and he eventually lost control of his car, crashed and died. In January 2004, Pappadake's parents filed a lawsuit against the last driver that Stephen was illegally passing, who they said had veered to the left, causing Stephen to leave the road and crash. The lawsuit made no reference to the police's conclusions. [Journal News (White Plains, N.Y.), 2-1-04]
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Northeast/04/09/hospital.attack/index.html
Far more disturbing
Sorry, but by the time you're nine you should know that taking things that aren't yours without permission is wrong. I know I knew that at that age. The article itself states that this child had problems with lying and theft, and this should nip in the bud.
Better to have a slightly scarring as a youth and nip the problem in the bud than let it go and have the child grow up to be a lying klepto.True, but you cant say what happened to that kid is "a slightly scarring".
Hell, i stole stuff when i was a kid. I got caught. Then my parents told me what happens to bad kids. That was enough to scare me to death. I never ever stole something again. :p
JackScratch
10-04-04, 06:00
from what I read this was handled perfectly. The behavior this little girl has exibited should have been handled long before this by the parents. Baring that it is time to bring in the athorities, but it isn't as though the hung her. A little fear is a good cure for this kind of thing. Kudos to the Deputy, the stareing thing is great. C'mon, it isn't his job to be here buddy, it's his job to scare the bad outa her.
JackScratch
10-04-04, 06:05
Waht?
[ edited ] What didn't you understand Glok, [ edited ]?
What didn't you understand Glok, [ edited ]
JackScratch
10-04-04, 06:07
And terified I assure you, I still don't know what you didn't understand because you have such a big chip on your shoulder you haven't answered my question. What didn't you understand?
I don't understand how you think you can dictate how we should play this GAME. It baffles me, really, that you think you have a say in how players act.
JackScratch
10-04-04, 06:16
That is a different thread, why are you hijacking this thread to air your beef with me?
Because I don't like you. Simple?
Because I don't like you. Simple?
Least your honest :lol:
I suppose at least it's not like in Singapore...
hang on, wtf am I talking about. Where is it again that they cut your hand off if you get caught stealing?
Im guessing a Middle Eastern state with Islam as its basis for its goverment. If not im pretty sure its Turkey, they are the people that put you away for life for having a little porn.
I think that was Singapore...
That is one weird site Estabin.
Yea I first found out about it in this free paper that is circulated weekly called the Austin Chronicle, I read News of the Weird and The Straight Dope weekly and love em... some of the articles are eye openers.
JackScratch
10-04-04, 07:00
Ah, you see, this explains everything. It took place in Texas. Texans are well known to have a slightly better method of dealing with bad children than the rest of the world. BTW, Estabin, Howdy from Houston
I can see why everyone is so confused.
I mean seriously, they let her out after only one hour. She should have had at least one night in clink for breaking and entering regardless of age.
/edit - Singapore have very strict laws and have beatings for some crimes still but AFAIK they don't cut hands off. Many arab and african nations have punishments of that kind though.
Gonna have to agree with Jack Scratch on this one (gods forgive me)...
We don't know the full story and I betcha dollars to doughnuts that both parents where involved in this.
I grew up in a small bible belt town right smack in the middle of Texas called Gatesville (I still get mad even typing the damn name) and I was extremely rowdy when I was young and my mother tryed everything to set me on the straight and narrow. The parent can only take so much of the police coming and nocking on your door before they take drastic measures... I was like 10 years old and they took me for a ride, scared the bejeezus out of me.
Didn't work though, I was still rowdy and always getting into trouble in one form or another... I just learned to be more conscious of getting caught :p
JackScratch
10-04-04, 07:19
Im guessing my posts make more sence to you than the rest of them. All though, you do live in Austin, that's more like California than Texas. LOL
Im guessing my posts make more sence to you than the rest of them. All though, you do live in Austin, that's more like California than Texas. LOL
Why do you think I live here? Remember I grew up in Gatesville (spits), I went to school here in the 80s and they where still spanking people (they called them "licks" don't ask) in High School.
Growing up in Gatesville you had to have a very active imagination to keep yourself sane, a one 7-11 town will do that to yea and I always found myself into one bad fix or another, it is hard to leave the dodgy path once you start... prolly why I didn't mesh into the military too well :wtf:
[ edited ]
And in four or five years when she torches your house and steals your car will you still provide the same sane and reasoned argument in support of juvenile crime?
JackScratch
10-04-04, 07:46
Manderf -
problem with authority figures? You realy should do something about that hostility, and there is a refrence in your reply that Im quite certain is inapropriot. I think the Forum Mods are on vacation.
Manderf -
problem with authority figures? You realy should do something about that hostility, and there is a refrence in your reply that Im quite certain is inapropriot. I think the Forum Mods are on vacation.
Heh unforunatly for manderf the mods are never on "vacation" for longer then 6 hours.
JackScratch
10-04-04, 07:53
Heh unforunatly for manderf the mods are never on "vacation" for longer then 6 hours.
I take that to mean Im correct about the reference. Im pretty sure they realy give it to you good for that one.
[edited for consistancy]
Do your parents realize how you act on your computer when you post? tsk tsk...
PS
I did the quote in case you tryed to edit it out :D
JackScratch
10-04-04, 07:56
OK, Estabin, that is the funniest thing in the history of ever. True art man, my hat is off to you.
Im more confused that someone doesnt understand what is going on here. At 9 most with avg IQ understand stealing is wrong. It was indeed time that someone put the connection between punishment and crime clearly in sight for her.
If you dont understand what that cop was doing by being all bad ass mean then you need treatment.
also, you few that didnt get it please dont have kids, I dont want to be shot by them driving to the store.
BTW Hello from Dallas
Im more confused that someone doesnt understand what is going on here. At 9 most with avg IQ understand stealing is wrong. It was indeed time that someone put the connection between punishment and crime clearly in sight for her.
If you dont understand what that cop was doing by being all bad ass mean then you need treatment.
also, you few that didnt get it please dont have kids, I dont want to be shot by them driving to the store.
BTW Hello from DallasI learned most of lifes lessons from my parents - not from Mr. Policeman. Frankly, the policemans overacting probably did more harm to the girl than good... That child just learned simplistically that cops don't care about you and that they can be bad people too: ""He put one handcuff on me really tight," she said Thursday. In the patrol car, "He just stared at me in the mirror."".
The only time I got in trouble with the police, they were kind enough to me... Told me what I did wrong, what the penalties would be, etc... But as I said, it was my parents who learned me some good ole' fashioned values, not Mr. Policeman. Their job is to uphold the law, not prosecute and punish.
They should of sent her to camp X-Ray. :p
Heh, Jaggeh did the same when he was a kid.. well kind of. He was only 7 and he went to a neighbour to see if he could play (we lived in private area, so it was ok for kids to be out). No one was in but the back door was open so he wandered in the back then took all the good food, brought it upstairs and proceeded to play with all the toys upstairs (making a mess).
Eventually they came home and thinking they had a burgler they went upstairs armed with weapons (knives, bats). When they saw him and the mess they brought him to us and demanded we do something about it or they would call the cops. Jaggeh was told "Don't do it again, ok?". They didn't like that so they called the cops. A cop turned up and said laughing at them and said "Your lucky it wasn't a burgler and next time lock your backdoor and don't waste our time again".
Why arrest a child? Isnt it the parents job to discipline(?) there child. Not another person?? :/
I learned most of lifes lessons from my parents - not from Mr. Policeman. Frankly, the policemans overacting probably did more harm to the girl than good... That child just learned simplistically that cops don't care about you and that they can be bad people too: ""He put one handcuff on me really tight," she said Thursday. In the patrol car, "He just stared at me in the mirror."".
If she has any grey matter in her head she'll eventually learn that what was done was done for her own good, and then she'll hopefully get over it.
You have to understand that not everyone is like you or I, who learned right from wrong from our parents and appropriately followed their rules (most of the time :p). Some kids are just naturally rebellious and have spoiled attitudes, and those things need to be nipped in the bud before they grow out of control (i.e. puberty) by whatever means necessary.
Why arrest a child? Isnt it the parents job to discipline(?) there child. Not another person?? :/
It is, but unforunately there's an ever increasing number of parents who do not properly discipline their child (often because they may have been overdisciplined themselves as children, or are just irresponsible). So sometimes 3rd party help is required to get things right.
any more racest remarks the thread will be closed
if it gets off topic the same
thank you have a nice day
Uhhh... imo parents should teach children from day one what is right and wrong. The fact that it got to them using the police to scare the fuck out of their child just shows what shit parents they were.
First of all, we can not compare this incident to our own lives. These things are complicated and isolated.
Things like this should not even be printed in the news media. It makes people think bad of more people then deserve it if any deserve it.
We are all imperfect in our own ways. Really the news media should just keep this between the people involved, locally.
I learned most of lifes lessons from my parents - not from Mr. Policeman. Frankly, the policemans overacting probably did more harm to the girl than good... That child just learned simplistically that cops don't care about you and that they can be bad people too: ""He put one handcuff on me really tight," she said Thursday. In the patrol car, "He just stared at me in the mirror."".
The only time I got in trouble with the police, they were kind enough to me... Told me what I did wrong, what the penalties would be, etc... But as I said, it was my parents who learned me some good ole' fashioned values, not Mr. Policeman.I the land of litigation it seems everyone has a complaint about handcuffs that never takes into consideration the reason they were made to wear them.
If the parents can't teach the child a basic sense of right and wrong then I'd much rather the police did it now while it can have a positive effect than in ten years when it will just mean a life in prison at the taxpayers expense.
Their job is to uphold the law, not prosecute and punish.She broke the law, they did their job. The job they are paid and expected to do.
Why arrest a child? Isnt it the parents job to discipline(?) there child. Not another person?? :/If she'd stolen her sibling's bunny or her parents money then yes. The minute her crimes involve others who can't take action directly to punish and correct her then the authorities become involved. If the parents continue to fail in their duties then I hope the child is taken away from them ASAP before she becomes another burden on the system.
@XSuneX - Very true. We are all drawing conclusions about this specific instance based on incomplete data from a sensationalist source. My points still stand but you are right they may not apply well to this case specifically. As several people said, her parents may well have asked the police to intervene to scare her. I know people who've done this before to good effect.
I learned most of lifes lessons from my parents - not from Mr. Policeman. Frankly, the policemans overacting probably did more harm to the girl than good... That child just learned simplistically that cops don't care about you and that they can be bad people too: ""He put one handcuff on me really tight," she said Thursday. In the patrol car, "He just stared at me in the mirror."".
The only time I got in trouble with the police, they were kind enough to me... Told me what I did wrong, what the penalties would be, etc... But as I said, it was my parents who learned me some good ole' fashioned values, not Mr. Policeman. Their job is to uphold the law, not prosecute and punish.
The writer of the article made careful note of the fact this was a reoccuring problem. The policeman was either prompted or had first hand knowledge of past events, and thus took action he felt was proper in the situation. The first reason you have a hard time understanding this is you assume people are idiots and dont look at things thinking of why would a logical person do such, you just want to think people are stupid and suck. Think first with the assumtion that most people arnt idiots and it makes more sense.
ohh ya please dont have kids kthxby
Actually most people are idiots. You just need to work out which ones aren't.;)
JackScratch
10-04-04, 17:33
Sweet, the contingency from Texas has arrived. There is a lagitamit process going on here, based on what the article tells us. Certainly spare the rod and spoil the child, but more than that. If one simply repremands a child as harshly as they can from the start, then you have no where to progress to in the future. The parents should first attempt to teach the child right from wrong, and use positive re enforcement. Following that we proceed to negative re enforcement where positive fails. Next we use scare tactics where negative re enforcement has failed. Finaly we leave it over to the law, the last bastian for human beings who simply can not learn right from wrong. Not knowing what techniques these pqarents have used in the past it is dificult to judge the prior to this point, as even the best parenting skills can fail if the child is resistant. (any who say otherwise are fools and should avoid haveing children) It seems to me, that we have proceeded to the scare tactic phase, useing law inforcement to give the child a glimps of their future on the curent path.
What these parents has done, lays nicely of the progressive path of good parenting. Certainly we would have liked to see better results than this prior to reaching this stage, however haveing reached it, this is the obvious best next step.
{MD}GeistDamnit
10-04-04, 18:05
While its harsh, maybe it'll help her learn her lesson in that stealing and lying about it is wrong. Just letting her get away with it would've been worse IMO.
yep I agree, too many thieves and lowlives in the world ( america ) haha. To begin with. maybe now she wont get pregnant at 13 ;)
NS_CHROME54
10-04-04, 18:17
there is some real parenting bullshit happening up here in canada (fault of the local authorities, not the parents).
there was one particular case (still ongoing, events i'll mention happened about 1.5 years ago) where this one mother tried everything to set her 13 year old daughter on the straight and narrow. this included spanking her, which i believe is a very justifiable measure (worked on me), which the girl tried to pass off to the police as a "severe emotionally scarring beating," (fortunately they didn't buy it). her kid ran away from home and started living with this one couple who offered refuge for little kleptos in their homes, and gave them all kinds of drugs to make em happy. for some odd reason the laws made it impossible for the police to go in and get these kids from this place. anyway the mother tried getting the police involved but they refused. so the mother went to this house to go and drag her daughter home. when she rushed in, she caught her daughter instructing a 15 year old boy and how to steal a bunch of stuff from the mothers home. the woman was then forced out by the owner, who brandished a knife. the police still refused to get involved.
i hope this proves that sometimes the kids are just plain fucked and that even the best parents in the world can fail at raising a child like that.
{MD}GeistDamnit
10-04-04, 18:22
wow that's nuts NS. I'm not suprised though, I blame TV! who's with me ? :D
JackScratch
10-04-04, 18:37
This wouldnt happen in the US, the police and CPS are always too eager to get involved. Sometimes it is a bad situation, but what you describe here wouldn't heppen because I have seen several valid posibiliutes for the authorities to interviene. Also, if you guys had guns like we Texans, you could put together a little private army and storm the place. That's what I would do.
there is some real parenting bullshit happening up here in canada (fault of the local authorities, not the parents).
there was one particular case (still ongoing, events i'll mention happened about 1.5 years ago) where this one mother tried everything to set her 13 year old daughter on the straight and narrow. this included spanking her, which i believe is a very justifiable measure (worked on me), which the girl tried to pass off to the police as a "severe emotionally scarring beating," (fortunately they didn't buy it). her kid ran away from home and started living with this one couple who offered refuge for little kleptos in their homes, and gave them all kinds of drugs to make em happy. for some odd reason the laws made it impossible for the police to go in and get these kids from this place. anyway the mother tried getting the police involved but they refused. so the mother went to this house to go and drag her daughter home. when she rushed in, she caught her daughter instructing a 15 year old boy and how to steal a bunch of stuff from the mothers home. the woman was then forced out by the owner, who brandished a knife. the police still refused to get involved.
i hope this proves that sometimes the kids are just plain fucked and that even the best parents in the world can fail at raising a child like that.
If I were her father and saw that bunny hopping around in my living room, the first thing I'd do is ask where she got it. Turns out she stole it I'd punish her.
But... the article says this wasn't the first time something like this happend, so to me it seems perfectly fine the police comes to her house. Maybe taking her to the office wearing cuffs IS a little harsh. A little talk at her house might have done the trick. I've been questioned at home for stealing a pie (lol) when I was 11. Never been naughty again after that....
But again, you don't know the complete story...
JackScratch
10-04-04, 19:49
I would guess that most of the people on this thread that dis agree with the measures taken, are not adults, when I say that, I don't mean legal definition of adults, I mean mid to early 20s or younger. It is my sincere hope that any acceptions don't have children, or at the very least are lucky enough to have perfect well behaved children.
Damn, I can't belive any of you are against this. The little rat is a thief, she deserved to be arrested. She should be told if she ever does it again she will get a bullet in the head. That will set her strait, and if it doesnt, the problem will be eliminated. Theres too many liberals in the world.
I the land of litigation it seems everyone has a complaint about handcuffs that never takes into consideration the reason they were made to wear them.
...
She broke the law, they did their job. The job they are paid and expected to do.I wore handcuffs, but the guy who put 'em on my wasn't a dick about it. He didn't ty to scare me, he did his job.
What this cop did was not proper, even if the parents condoned it.
Why? Because this shows that the parents are too lazy, or don't know how to properly control their child - which in turn tells me that the actions taken by this police officer will be taken dramatically out of context by the child.
The writer of the article made careful note of the fact this was a reoccuring problem. The policeman was either prompted or had first hand knowledge of past events, and thus took action he felt was proper in the situation. The first reason you have a hard time understanding this is you assume people are idiots and dont look at things thinking of why would a logical person do such, you just want to think people are stupid and suck. Think first with the assumtion that most people arnt idiots and it makes more sense.
ohh ya please dont have kids kthxbyIf it was a reoccuring problem... Where were the parents?
If the parents have to rely on the police officer to solve such a miniscule problem with their child, they suck as parents. If anyone thinks that having a cop act in a uncaring and mean manner will make the kid get 'scared straight'... They must not know a whole lot about psych.
Sure - what was done here makes sense, in the same way that you can amputate a limb instead of try and make it usable.
:rolleyes:
Your not allowe chewing gum in Singapore...... 8|
First off for those of you that think this is a "american" thing, please remember that the US covers a lot of different states and for the most part those states set their own guidelines in reguards to local laws (within reason).
Now my Husband who used to be a police officer in Florida said the reason why they are so strict on children as well as adults is due to the crime rate.
Children this age and younger are buying and selling drugs in gangs and worse.
Now as for how different countries police their population's, I try not to judge even though what some of them do seem harsh by comparison to what I am used to!
For example my husband was a Military Policeman stationed in Germany before the wall was taken down. He had mentioned that once while out riding around town with a german officer, a local had made a rude gesture? No big deal in my opinion but there the german officer that witnesed the offense beat the guy up!! I was like wow you have to be kidding..but you know what they have a very low crime rate due to the fact they do not let people get away with much.
And even if it may mean a little less freedom I would love to have the freedom of fear that must give the general population knowing that all things are taken that seriously!
Most places have these kinds of harsh punishments in place for a reason...
before you judge some one elses way of doing things, try looking a little deeper to understand why!
I wore handcuffs, but the guy who put 'em on my wasn't a dick about it. He didn't ty to scare me, he did his job.
What this cop did was not proper, even if the parents condoned it.
Why? Because this shows that the parents are too lazy, or don't know how to properly control their child - which in turn tells me that the actions taken by this police officer will be taken dramatically out of context by the child. That's all speculation. Why do you assume the officer was anything less than proper in his conduct. I wouldn't take the word of a 9 year old at the best of times let alone one who's just been caught commiting a felony and that's assuming her words aren't being twisted to make the story more sensational.
(here down not aimed at anyone in particular)
IME anyone taking a "the pigs are all evil and after us man" attitude is generally an ass. I've yet to meet one who is not either a) trying to impress somehow or b) deserving of a few nights in the cells. In most cases they are total pussies who get their attitude from crappy records they are scared to let their parents overhear coming from their bedrooms.
JackScratch
11-04-04, 01:12
I have severeal theories on police that are less than favorable, and to be honest the German cop beating up a guy for a rude gesture is far from what I would call apropriot, lower crime rate or not. Most of my problemns with the police revolve around the methods used to decide who becomes one and various policies set forth in various precints, not the individual police themselves. Being a Texan I have mostly ideas of leting people police themselves with a skeleton policeforce to guide the process. I have even thought of a jury system that puts a random civilian in each patrol car, and the civilian monotors all decisions and the cop makes all actions, tell me that wouldn't solve a lot of problems. As for how this particular cop behaved, a little fear is ceartainly called for here, the statements "the handcuff was too tight" and "he staired at me" are both vague and neither one gives me call to suspect actions beyond what a misbehaveing child should recieve.
Once again, my prayer is that those of you who find this an out rage only have perfect, well behaved children, or none at all. I have a feeling mine will inherit that extra Y.
I would guess that most of the people on this thread that dis agree with the measures taken, are not adults, when I say that, I don't mean legal definition of adults, I mean mid to early 20s or younger. It is my sincere hope that any acceptions don't have children, or at the very least are lucky enough to have perfect well behaved children.hmmm I disagree with what the officer did because it wasnt the right thing to do. A little girl stealing a usa isnt something evil. Doesnt matter to me anymore its not my country so I stop posting in this thread. ^-^ SO I do not think i have to right to say what is right or wrong. :)
hmmm I disagree with what the officer did because it wasnt the right thing to do. A little girl stealing a usa isnt something evil. Doesnt matter to me anymore its not my country so I stop posting in this thread. ^-^ SO I do not think i have to right to say what is right or wrong. :)
Exactly what part do you disagree with?
Q`alooaith
11-04-04, 02:01
I'm, of the guilty untill proven innocent school of thought.
why, it let's you detail people you suspect of crime untill they prove you wrong, so what if a few innocent people get locked up, the guilty one's get the same treatment.
but then half of me want's to let the world burn, tear down the edifces of socitiy and throw the earth back into the stone age..
That's all speculation. Why do you assume the officer was anything less than proper in his conduct.
"He put one handcuff on me really tight," she said Thursday. In the patrol car, "He just stared at me in the mirror."I don't think there's anywhere in the police manual that reads "stop everything you're doing and stare at the girl in the mirror for a little while for added intimidation points". Because make no mistake, the child was intimidated. Also, children will not undertand their miranda rights, as such there are certain precautions which might or might not have taken place. I heartily doubt that they did seeing as no charges were filed against the child.
As for how this particular cop behaved, a little fear is ceartainly called for here, the statements "the handcuff was too tight" and "he staired at me" are both vague and neither one gives me call to suspect actions beyond what a misbehaveing child should recieve.A cop should not intimidate a person, good cops know this. Fear obstructs ones ability to get information from people... What this cop did violated the ideal that a person is innocent until proven guilty. It wasn't until she was in the police station and in questioning that she admitted taking the rabbit (though not the two 5$ bills and change).
As I mentioned above, there's several juvenile law statutes in the states, especially revolving around the fact that a child cannot understand and accept their rights as read to them by the police. Therefore, there should've been an attorney present for the child along with at least one of her parents or legal guardians during the questioning. Its possible that it did happen... But I sincerely doubt it since this was a crappy 'scared straight' ploy.
Yes, the police were brought in to teach the child a lesson in a quick brutal yet efficient manner. I understand that.
I however beleive that it was wrong for the police to take action unless they would follow the proper letter of the law, it's not the job of the police to scare kids straight, thats the job of the school system and the parents of the children.
A proper beatin' from my mom fixed me in most cases. Maybe other mothers should try the same.
Q`alooaith
11-04-04, 02:48
A proper beatin' from my mom fixed me in most cases. Maybe other mothers should try the same.
Yes, that work's wonder's..
But then your starting to see cases where parent's can not smack their own children for missbahaving and other stuff, I mean come on.
All this "time out" and other way's to deal with children work's, but it does nothing to curb the behaviour, it just mean's the kid's be more sneaky..
a good clack round the ass will make anyone stop and think about what they just did..
Marx you seem to be living in an idea world cause that crap dont' really work around here in texas lol. Kids become rude fast. I've seen kids punished. Groundings, Privilages taken away, spankings and yet it doesn't phase them. People have different types of personalities also. And while you seem to think of this perfect parenting plan. There is none. Because if your personality and thepersonality of your child does not work out too well - you're going to have some major problems. Not i'm not going to say anything about unprepared or parents who aren't good as parents, but some people have children before they are ready. The mother who gets pregnant at an early age, the father who doesn;t stay around. So now you have the single mother trying to work to support herself and a child. Throw in work, keeping teh house in order and you have some problems sometimes. What happens if she can't get a good job and ends up with 2? well certainly that makes teaching your child a big harder, doesn't it? Maybe a good whipping does wonders but some people can't bring themselves to whip their children. Not everyone is the same and not everyone's child is the same. While some may learn some will just rebel.
Q`alooaith
11-04-04, 03:28
true amfest.
but then there will alway's be men that run when the girl get's a bun in the oven.
You can never be truely ready to become a parent for the first time, or the second realy since your copping with two...
You've just got to try your best and hope at the end of the day they only hate you when you show baby pictures to their freinds.
JackScratch
11-04-04, 04:52
Cool, another Texan, were comeing out, guns a blazin.
Im telling you, proper cooperation between parents and authorities can go a long way. It isn't like the child spent any real time in jail, or was abused. Fear is a step in the process, an important step, a crutial step. Rule any part out and you ruin the process. Good parenting is a fairy tail, bust ass and read and research and it is still a crap shoot at best. You have to do what seems right at the time, and do your best to know what is right. You can follow the book, any book, do it alll correct, take every procaution possible and still raise Damien. There are no garuntees. The step we see in this article is just as viable as any other possible step.
God help me, VetteroX agrees with me, isn't that a sign of the apocolypse?
Marx you seem to be living in an idea world cause that crap dont' really work around here in texas lol. Kids become rude fast. I've seen kids punished. Groundings, Privilages taken away, spankings and yet it doesn't phase them. People have different types of personalities also. And while you seem to think of this perfect parenting plan. There is none. Because if your personality and thepersonality of your child does not work out too well - you're going to have some major problems. Not i'm not going to say anything about unprepared or parents who aren't good as parents, but some people have children before they are ready. The mother who gets pregnant at an early age, the father who doesn;t stay around. So now you have the single mother trying to work to support herself and a child. Throw in work, keeping teh house in order and you have some problems sometimes. What happens if she can't get a good job and ends up with 2? well certainly that makes teaching your child a big harder, doesn't it? Maybe a good whipping does wonders but some people can't bring themselves to whip their children. Not everyone is the same and not everyone's child is the same. While some may learn some will just rebel.You don't get my point - I say, if you're going to have the police punish them... PUNISH THEM ffs, don't pull that "Well, I hoped you learned your lesson" crap.
I'm a big fan of "you do the crime, you do the time", and as far as the article goes... There's NO punishment, just the cop being and trying to be a rude and inconsiderate father-like figure. If the parents punish her after, great.
But if the cop is going to do what he did, he better do it right and push it to the fullest... Not that half-assed crap.
JackScratch
11-04-04, 07:24
Juvinille crimes are treated different by law, Marx. If it were tried as a juvinille crime, most likely less would happen. This way there is at least a sence of danger, some effect. Trieing the 1 time theft of a pet, nothing, no jail time, nothing. Besides, rehabilitation isn't. So Far in the US rehabilitation seems to be the number one insentive for crime, put em in jail, keep em there, if you don't they are more likely to do it again. No, this is the way to handle it, plenty of time for a career in the State Correctional Instatute later. For now, a good scare is the best medicine.
Juvinille crimes are treated different by law, Marx. If it were tried as a juvinille crime, most likely less would happen. This way there is at least a sence of danger, some effect. Trieing the 1 time theft of a pet, nothing, no jail time, nothing. Besides, rehabilitation isn't. So Far in the US rehabilitation seems to be the number one insentive for crime, put em in jail, keep em there, if you don't they are more likely to do it again. No, this is the way to handle it, plenty of time for a career in the State Correctional Instatute later. For now, a good scare is the best medicine.Juvenile crimes are, as you stated, treated differently by law, but not law enforcement.
Juvenile crimes are not treated any differently by the police. Why? Because a crime is a crime. The police are supposed to be impartial, a policeman is not a judge, jury, or executioner. He or she is a witness who collects information and controls the scene so that the data gathered can be passed on to the proper people. Those proper people would fall under the court/judicial branch of the legal system...
Anyway, teaching the kid to fear reprisal from the police won't teach them morality. It will teach them not to get caught.
edit: Ah, simply put since this discussion won't change anyones view: Cop was a dick and was going beyond his bounds by trying to teach the lesson of right and wrong. Let the legal system do the teaching if you're going to arrest the kid. If you're just going to scare them a lil bit, don't bring them in under false pretences.
JackScratch
11-04-04, 08:00
Well, in my opinion your responce is only to part of what I have said. I think the mission of state and city police is pretty clear, to protect and serve, I believe it was. As for parenting, I think I have stated pretty clearly that I would piss on a sparkplug if I thought it would do anygood. The police are obligated to do there best to make our world a safer place. The parents are obligated to teach thier child to be a productive member of society. If the police are willing and the parents think it apropriot, then hell, I'm on bored to. Can't do much worse than leaveing it alone, ever hear of a happy medium, besides, like I said, plenty of time for state college if this doesn't work out.
I'd just like to ask something...
What if the cop just didn't plain LIKE the kid?
And who knows, maybe there was justification on the cop's part not to like the kid, if he didn't.
Juvenile crimes are not treated any differently by the police. Why? Because a crime is a crime. The police are supposed to be impartial, a policeman is not a judge, jury, or executioner. He or she is a witness who collects information and controls the scene so that the data gathered can be passed on to the proper people. Those proper people would fall under the court/judicial branch of the legal system...
Kinda off the topic but you have no idea what a cop's job is like. Try handing that line of crap to the widow of a cop that that was shot by a 14 year old. Cops dont have the luxary to treat kids different in the world we live in. I know this case is different, but cops see alot more of what happens when kids get out of line and have a better clue on how to hadle cases.
Marx, do you think it would have had any impact on the kid at all if the cop had been all sweetness and light. No it wouldn't. Giving her cream cakes and hugs won't do shit.
From the little information available I still say the cop did his job well and all this emotional blathering still hasn't shown me one thing to contradict that. "He looked at me" sounds more like he was hamming it up a bit (assuming it's not just BS from the thief) to try and sort her life out than some form of assault. If she doesn't like being looked at she's going to have even more problem with life than just spending it in a cell.
Well kids need telling whats right and whats wrong at an early age other wise we get cars being stolen and burned out in the local park. Kids these days are out of control and they all need a good f*cking slap this is a place to live in not piss about know what I mean.
Aziraphale
11-04-04, 11:29
Physical violence really isn't nessesary. I'm the child of a 'broken home', my parents never resorted to violence, and I've never commited a crime other than uderage drinking. Which, since it was in my own home, is in fact legal depending on your nationality...
Basically, it's down to good parenting, giving them 'a good slap' is just going to make them think that violence is acceptable.
Hey I used to get cracked off my parents this is no longer seen as being a good way to tell off kids infact its against the law. Well I have never been in trobble with police that much and if I was it was never that serious but some kids well I can only blame the parents for not bring there child up properly. When I got brought up it was slap thats wrong or hit him he hit you and I did I learned thought threw my parents what was right and what was wrong.
giving them 'a good slap' is just going to make them think that violence is acceptable.
Provide evidence for that. Mild physical punishment worked fine for generations before all these bleeding heart liberals outlawed it. Since then things have got a hell of a lot worse.
Aziraphale
11-04-04, 11:35
So it should be okay to hit kids when they do wrong?
What about when grown ups do wrong?
If someone spills their coffee all over your carpet, should you be allowed to spank them?
At what age would it become not-allowed to use domestic violence?
And these days, kids would hit back.
Aziraphale
11-04-04, 11:37
Provide evidence for that. Mild physical punishment worked fine for generations before all these bleeding heart liberals outlawed it. Since then things have got a hell of a lot worse.
I could explain why I think that, but it'd take a while, and I could very easily be wrong, I'm no psychologist after all.
Did it really work on generations? A few generations ago people were beating the hell out of negros in the street and nothing was done about it.
Does that sound like these people had been properly socialised to you?
A few generations ago people were beating the hell out of negros in the street and nothing was done about it.
Does that sound like these people had been properly socialised to you?
If that was then the norm for their society then yes, I'm afraid it does. We may not like it now but things change, sometimes for the better (eg abolishing slavery) and sometimes for the worse (abolishing corporal punishment).
Basically, it's down to good parenting, giving them 'a good slap' is just going to make them think that violence is acceptable.
Well I know this saying is what caused the ban on smacking children but GOD look at the old days when you could leave your front door open. Nothing was stolen ever because kids where brought up right to respect people. I live in the northeast of england I will walk threw sunderland town centre and well there be kids about 14 years old giving me abuse. Now back 20 years they would never dream about doing it cos I would have smacked them for it but now you can't and they get away with murder. People are wrong in thinking violence is what causes people to commit violent crimes violence is part of the human race. It is what controls people and makes them obey I'm sorry if you are so lost in this idea that people are commiting crimes based on they got smacked as a child. Cos its not its cause they think hey I can get away with this I'm gonna do it some more and it makes them grow in confidence and lead to worse crimes. I lived in germany for 6 years as a british solder young german people where so serious about acting correctly they looked after there lives. There was hardly an crimes there most of the crimes where caused by british solders out drinking and yeah they hated us for it. We where very badly educated by the army in drinking we would drink alot more than any one that ever drinks. I myself would stay out all night drinking then causing trouble because the army mentality was drink drink drink.
So it should be okay to hit kids when they do wrong?
Yes it should be this is the way us people bring up the kids it allways has been and it works but then they stop it. Well crime is rising at a steady rate and all because people are not doing the propper parenting. While i was a kid it was sit at the dinning table and eat STFU am your parent hey how did you do at school?
My parents cared about me they made me and wanted me to grow into a propper adult with a job and stuff at the min it seems most kids are taking drugs.
(here down not aimed at anyone in particular) IME anyone taking a "the pigs are all evil and after us man" attitude is generally an ass. I've yet to meet one who is not either a) trying to impress somehow or b) deserving of a few nights in the cells. In most cases they are total pussies who get their attitude from crappy records they are scared to let their parents overhear coming from their bedrooms.
Errr... actually, in my experience about half of Police have something against teenagers. For example: My friends were skating in their street on a small ramp. Police car came along and pulled up just behind the ramp, the policeman got out and told them that they had to move the ramp as cars couldn't get past. As he said it a 4x4 drove right by the ramp with feet to spare. Justification? Though saying that, the other half of Policemen are often ok, and will only stop you if you are actually doing something wrong.
Oh yeah, and from the sounds of this thread all teenagers are out of control scumbags with no respect for authority or society. I'm sorry, but is this huge over-exaggeration an adult thing, because you see like one news report saying that some 16 year olds beat up a pensioner and mugged them, or a 14 year old kid shot a Policeman. Yeah, thats harsh, but its one isolated case. Are you now going to use that as evidence that teenagers are scum? There are shitheads who do harsh things as teenagers... but there are alot more adults who are as bad or as worse. Saying "Oh, teenagers can't be trusted in the world we live in" because of a hugely small minority is like saying adults can't be trusted in the world we live in because of people like Mugabe starving his own country.
Judge
You must be a teenager your self to post this sort of anger at the police I know what you mean some police are pure dickheads. But what I'm on about is the out of control teenagers that think its ok to put a fucking brick through someones window so they can run away from it and laugh. This is what england is getting ruined by because peoples views on smaking kids some of these kids are totaly full of them selfs they don't give a shit and will destroy anything that is in the way.
Judge - Dickhead kids turn into dickhead adults. The fact is that it's a million times easier to change a child's morals than an adult's.
Even as a kid I never understood people with this "adults vs kids" mentality. :rolleyes:
Yes, I'm a teenager. I'm guessing that both you are adults right? I have no anti adult or anti police mentality unless they deserve it. As I said, there are police who do deserve it.
"But what I'm on about is the out of control teenagers that think its ok to put a fucking brick through someones window so they can run away from it and laugh."
What about adults who push hard drugs to teenagers? Aren't they at fault for at least some of societys problems? Oh no, sorry forgot. Teeangers are the scapegoats of society.
jernau
You are totaly right its kids vs adults mixed with this I'm a kid I can do this and not be punished for it BS those same kids turn into adults and do they suddenly change when there 18 years old? Hey i'm 18 now I can't do this shit its wrong I must act normal and be peasefull yeah right :rolleyes:
What about adults who push hard drugs to teenagers? Aren't they at fault for at least some of societys problems? Oh no, sorry forgot. Teeangers are the scapegoats of society.
Yeah and what do you think these adults where like when they where kids?
Did they just turn 18 and go I'm gonna push drugs to the younger kids cos I'm a twat with nothing else to do?
Hey i'm sorry but you are plainly wrong Judge this is a world where people live in and there are rules to keep the pease. Even if those rules ruin your fun to put bricks through peoples windows and stuff and slag the police off. The police are teh law there judgement is final nuff said they do a job you know O_o
"But what I'm on about is the out of control teenagers that think its ok to put a fucking brick through someones window so they can run away from it and laugh."
What about adults who push hard drugs to teenagers? Aren't they at fault for at least some of societys problems? Oh no, sorry forgot. Teeangers are the scapegoats of society.
Again the segregation of adults and kids as if one doesn't become the other. :rolleyes:
I'll explain again - Those asshole adults you mention were once asshole kids. Now they are adults the chances of adjusting their behaviour is almost zero, however if they were educated properly as kids the problem may never have arisen.
Calling the police names because they asked you to remove an illegal and quite possibly dangerous obstruction from the highway adds little weight to any complaint you may feel you have against them.
The reason why police get all anti with kids is simply the kids them selfs, now what if you and or your friends had simply agreed and move the ramp?
The police would be alot nicer knowing there job has worked and there doing it well. Then maybe they might stop getting in the way as much and let you have your fun ramp where ever you want it. But the adult kid thing is clearly not being handled correcty kids need to be told whats right wats wrong and if they got a problem with the rules. They will should be able to speak with the council and get a park made for skate boarding or drinking and stuff yeah I was a kid I use to drink underage. I don't have anything against it as it actaully made me learn alot about drinking and the british goverment is ok with younger than 18 drinking under parents as long as its in the house AFAIK
maybe the law has changed since then but it was alowed at one point only not in public as in pubs
Now I did goto canada for 1 month and a half the rules on drinking was very much the same as england 18 years old and you can drink but the law was very stricked. They like germany had heavy fines for the littlest things man we had briefings on it in the army. Does and don't's :lol: but they because they where bad most of us obeyed and those that did not where chucked in the cell for the night and got a very army punishment. The punishment was harsh but a lot less prolonged than the actual law which would have heavy fines and long prison sentences. We all as british people saw that the candan goverment had got it right and our country was simply messed up its all down to the goverment people and anti smacking laws are making it alot worse.
Calling the police names because they asked you to remove an illegal and quite possibly dangerous obstruction from the highway adds little weight to any complaint you may feel you have against them.
I'm sorry... when did I call the police names? It wasn't a "highway" it was a small road in a housing estate. Its not like it was on a motorway ffs.
Yeah and what do you think these adults where like when they where kids?
If we are going to imply generalisation then I think that those kids were probably from homes where violence was widely accepted as a common punishment. Not a hugely nice environment to live in. If you, as a parent, have to hit your child then either your child has a mental problem (Eg: Hyperactivity) or you are shit parents because you cant be arsed to disclipline you child properly without resorting to violence. You say a persons behavior is mostly affected by what happens to them when they are young? That is right I agree, so what happens when a child get beaten for doing the smallest thing wrong? They grow up thinking that violence is the answer to their problems.... someone does something wrong to them so they hit that person. To them this is what you are meant to do.
Again the segregation of adults and kids as if one doesn't become the other.
I'm sorry, but you were the one who was segregating children and adults to begin with.
You implied that they were not doing their job correctly and that they had some personal grudge against you or your friends. That's an insult AFAIC and a fairly childish one at that. I mean, seriously, do you really think they enjoy dealing with petty crap like that?
The highway is any non-private road. It's irrelevant what kind of road it is or where it is.
Everything else in your post is nonsense or unfounded speculation. I can only suggest you reread what many of us have already said and if you still don't see the many faults in your beliefs then I can only hope you are never the victim of such liberal stupidity though in all honesty I believe some people deserve everything they get.
Most of what I said was speculation? Almost all of this thread is specualtion. I know what I'm talking about with parents hitting their children. I go to school with people who's parents hit them when they were children when they misbehaved, they are always the ones who get into fights
and trouble at school.
You implied that they were not doing their job correctly and that they had some personal grudge against you or your friends. That's an insult AFAIC and a fairly childish one at that. I mean, seriously, do you really think they enjoy dealing with petty crap like that?
He wasn't doing his job correctly. I don't know if that policeman had a grudge against my friends (I wasn't actually there) but it looks like it. Do I think they enjoy dealing with it.... well probably yes. Or he could have just let my friends carry on. They weren't obstructing the road. The cars parked on the road were obstructing it more than a skating ramp. Should the policeman knock on every door and tell them to move their cars? If he's telling teenagers to move off the road then he should tell the adults to get their cars off the road as well.
It's irrelevant what kind of road it is or where it is.
Errr.... no. Its pretty relevant. If they were skating on a motorway then yeah, they should move. If they are skating on a small estate road on which you aren't meant to even be doing 30 and has "Slow Down, Children" signs posted everywhere, outside their house. Then no I don't think they should have to move. Just so you know, skating ramps (Or kickers) are normally about one foot square, its not like they had half a skatepark on the road.
Most of what I said was speculation? Almost all of this thread is specualtion.That is true but your last post was just unsupportable in any regard. Then again, to be fair, asking a child for their opinion on corporal punishment is rather a pointless exercise.
Wrt your skating incident - The policeman was doing his job. Roads are not provided for kids to play in. I imagine he hates doing such a thankless task especially if like many other officers he has at some time also had the task of telling parents their kid was hit by a car because they were playing in the road. Oh and before you try to say it's the driver's fault - according to DTI figures ~90% of road accidents involving children are the fault of the child and not the driver.
The owners of the cars that you claim were causing an obstruction pay hundreds or thousands of pounds a year for the right to put them there and that is the reason for the road to exist in the first place.
Having lived for many years on a quiet residential road where the kids act like this I'm thoroughly sick of them and I'd bet that the people on that road are too. Why do you think the officer turned up in the first place? You think he was cruising around by looking for kids to annoy?:wtf: More likely someone called to complain. Someone who is sick of having his road blocked by mouthy little shites whose liberal waster parents do nothing about them, or finding his car scratched from kids dragging junk around to build ramps or crashing into his car, or getting his tyres fixed after they don't clear up their crap, etc. etc. etc.
/edit to your edit - The size of the ramp is irrelevant as I'm sure it was surrounded by kids and their junk. That said I've seen kids using old doors and all kinds of crap to build ramps so I'll take your claim on it's size with a pinch of salt.
Hi I'm French and I read this in the news:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=816&ncid=816&e=19&u=/ap/20040408/ap_on_re_us/whipped_easter_bunny
Tell me, is religion always THAT important in people's mind in the US ?
That's a question, not a criticism nor an attack.
I was just wondering. The importance of religion in the States sometimes worries people in Europe, especially the fact that it is present and mentioned in the US Constitution. USA are thus sometimes considered as a "religious" country with a religion-based governing State.
Let's launch the debate... :p
Im guessing a Middle Eastern state with Islam as its basis for its goverment. If not im pretty sure its Turkey, they are the people that put you away for life for having a little porn.
O_o
Turkey is not an islamic country.
The governing State is laic. In Turkey you can buy 10 porns per day if ya wanna to. But you can be jailed if you wear an headscarf and refuse to remove it in a public School or in the Parliament.
Don't mix things up. It's not cuz a majority of citizens are muslims in Turkey, Algeria, Irak and Afghanistan that ALL these countries are the same... :rolleyes:
Go to Turkey you'll have a pretty good time ;)
Note: however, Turkey applies the death penalty and do not let politics be messed up by opponents, such as Fundamentalist Islamists, extreme-left partisans, etc. So it is not indeed a FULL democracy, that's why Europe still hesitate to let it be a member of the EU.
That is true but your last post was just unsupportable in any regard. Then again, to be fair, asking a child for their opinion on corporal punishment is rather a pointless exercise.
And asking someone so obviously prejudiced against teenagers is also pretty pointless it would seem.
Wrt your skating incident - The policeman was doing his job. Roads are not provided for kids to play in. I imagine he hates doing such a thankless task especially if like many other officers he has at some time also had the task of telling parents their kid was hit by a car because they were playing in the road. Oh and before you try to say it's the driver's fault - according to DTI figures ~90% of road accidents involving children are the fault of the child and not the driver.
No... roads aren't provided for us to play in... but we have to do it somewhere and there is nowhere else provided. I'm well aware that the majority of accidents are the childs fault.
The owners of the cars that you claim were causing an obstruction pay hundreds or thousands of pounds a year for the right to put them there and that is the reason for the road to exist in the first place.
And do children have the ability or chance to pay that much money? No. We are in school learning and any jobs that we do get are underpayed and shit. I would accept your argument if I was able to make nearly as much money as an adult is.
Having lived for many years on a quiet residential road where the kids act like this I'm thoroughly sick of them and I'd bet that the people on that road are too. Why do you think the officer turned up in the first place? You think he was cruising around by looking for kids to annoy?:wtf: More likely someone called to complain. Someone who is sick of having his road blocked by mouthy little shites whose liberal waster parents do nothing about them, or finding his car scratched from kids dragging junk around to build ramps or crashing into his car, or getting his tyres fixed after they don't clear up their crap, etc. etc. etc.
Ah, I see the problem. Someones had some bad experiences and is bitter. Oh well, diddums, get over it and don't let your prejudices get in the way of what was a perfectly good debate.
And asking someone so obviously prejudiced against teenagers is also pretty pointless it would seem.
It would be, yes. I'm not however if that's what you are implying. I would hardly play a game like Neocron if that were the case.
No... roads aren't provided for us to play in... but we have to do it somewhere and there is nowhere else provided.
If you have nowhere to play then talk to your local council (or get your parents to do so). They can look into it and have the ability to provide facilities. I know of several towns and villages in the UK where special grounds for skaters have been built and who I'm sure would provide positive testimonials to support you. Even if you can't get a dedicated area I'm sure they can find or provide something more suitable than the road.
And do children have the ability or chance to pay that much money? No. We are in school learning and any jobs that we do get are underpayed and shit. I would accept your argument if I was able to make nearly as much money as an adult is.
When you are an adult you'll be able to make more money I hope. Until then you are reliant on your family and community. That's life and accepting it is part of growing up I'm afraid. Again you are trying to treat people as either adults or children rather than people who grow from one to the other. If you think that being an adult suddenly means you gain freedom and money you are in for a big surprse.
Ah, I see the problem. Someones had some bad experiences and is bitter. Oh well, diddums, get over it and don't let your prejudices get in the way of what was a perfectly good debate.
LOL. Do you see the irony here compared to your skater's story. There are two important differences however. 1) One of us (me) was really a victim both in terms of money and time and the other is just having a teenage spat with authority. 2) One of us (me again) did something about it. I spoke to the many other people who had similar problems and we got the council and social services involved and the problem (for our street at least) was resolved. You see, that's how adults deal with problems. We don't get "bitter" we sort them out and leave the tantrums to people who think roads and playgrounds are the same thing.
Heh, I am in support of jernau in this discussion, even though I am 19 and one of those supposed 'golden childs'. :p
Just like to point out punishment and/or violence isn't necessary or a part of life if the kids are smart/accepting enough...however I don't believe in a blanket way of doing things. It really depends on situations. Even I needed fear installed into me, but my parents were smart enough to handle me because I didn't need to have violence installed into me to be a good person...my parents were divorced and I lived with my mom also.
Call me an open thinker I guess.
Anyways, @ Satine: Religious/political debates are unfortunately not allowed in the forums I believe... O_o
Even if it is allowed...I guess yeah, it is that important. A belief carries much more weight than an idea. That's what separates logical/reasonable scientists from emotional/faithful people, I suppose.
I'm not bitter about it dude. I wasn't even there, I was merely using it as an example that in my opinion Police do seem to have something against teenagers.
I'm not trying to segregate adults and children any more than has been done already in this thread. But the fact remains that once you hit 18 you are entitled to a certain wage per hour, I do a paper round (which is the only work I can get) and I realised that I get paid something like £1.90 an hour.
Anyways, @ Satine: Religious/political debates are unfortunately not allowed in the forums I believe... O_o
Even if it is allowed...I guess yeah, it is that important. A belief carries much more weight than an idea. That's what separates logical/reasonable scientists from emotional/faithful people, I suppose.
First I want to precise that I didn't intend in my post nor in the followings to hurt anyone's faith ;)
Second, that's what I wanted to point out: You can be emotional, sensitive, faithful without being religious, or attached to a dogma.
What I was pointing at was the overwhelming influence of dogmas, of religion, of Church, on the US, not the influence of faith.
I believe there is "something" out there, I am not an atheist. But I do believe too that the dogmas and ways of Church (and of Jewish or Muslim or whatever religion religious institution) are really biased and sometimes dangerous. Religion provoke more wars than love. Love and faith in mankind, on the contrary, generally save us from total chaos and hatred.
:)
The UK minimum wage law applies to all ages, although I think it may be lower for <18s or <16s. I'm sure Google has the exact details and it might be worth a look as £1.90 and hour is very low.
I'm not sure it applies below 18, but IIRC it's £3.00 an hour below 21 and £3.60 an hour above that. I might be out of date on that though.
It applies for 16's and over in certain jobs... but paper rounds aren't done by how long you take, only on how many papers you deliver.
Marx, do you think it would have had any impact on the kid at all if the cop had been all sweetness and light. No it wouldn't. Giving her cream cakes and hugs won't do shit.Do I say be sweet to her? No.
I would however say to the cop, "do your fucking job and stop trying to pretend you're her daddy". The police who step in in juvenile cases like this do two things: act as mediator and act as a witness. If mediation between the two parties fails, then one party is brought to a different location (ala station house) so as more information about what occured can be digested.
Now, here are the things that I look at in this as bad: 1.) Children do not legally understand their miranda rights. As such, at least one of her parents or an attorney should've been present at the questioning. It was obvious no one had been there seeing as the child was released to the mother after it all (at the juvenile assesment facility). 2.) Handcuffs are only used on people who are deemed a flight risk or injury risk. I sincerely doubt a nine year old girl is either of those. 3.) The responding officer is supposed to be impartial. As I mentioned before the officers are legal witnesses and mediators... If the mediator gets mad at you, he or she is no longer mediating... They're attempting to punish, which is not in the job description of a police officer.
I say it would've been better had the decorum of the officers been better.
I for one would fear a bunch of people who will send me to my punishment rather than fear a group of 'mean men'. Why? Hostility towards a group breeds anti-social behaviors and tendancies.
I'm not a fan of the whole 'scared straight' bullshit plays, because they don't work. Why? Because when you're young getting a strict lashing once won't prevent you from doing it again, it has to be a constant process until you finally learn not to do something. If it happened before and the child still hasn't learned her lesson, I heartily doubt that the punishment will stand afterwards to keep the lesson learned.
mm...yes, I do agree that half-assed attempts don't work...for obvious reasons.
You may do everything right and still get the bad kid, but that's only a chance.
You can do everything half-assed and get the bad kid, but that's for sure.
hmmm what did i post that was racist. I forgot er pm me i wanna know what it was.
JackScratch
12-04-04, 06:34
It is always acceptable, to do it to your children. "your not to old for me to take over my knee." But of course, everything in moderation. These types of re enforcement should be used most spareingly. As for against the children of others, I think a little more violence here and there might trim of some of the edges, but it should be justifiable. I know I see people every day driveing down the road, who honostly need a sound beating. And If I shot them, I would be the criminal, what kind of world do we live in?
If you get through life with some wisdom, size and strength are little substitute for hutzpah and pure potential meanness. If your will is stronger than theirs, and it better be, they wont hit back. I wish my children to fear only 2 things in life, me and god.
So it should be okay to hit kids when they do wrong?
What about when grown ups do wrong?
If someone spills their coffee all over your carpet, should you be allowed to spank them?
At what age would it become not-allowed to use domestic violence?
And these days, kids would hit back.
i dunno if beating your kids is really the right solution. I mean i stole a pack of skittles from 7-11 when i have 6 and my mom telling me how disappointed she was in me still haunts my subconcious to this day.
JackScratch
12-04-04, 08:48
i dunno if beating your kids is really the right solution. I mean i stole a pack of skittles from 7-11 when i have 6 and my mom telling me how disappointed she was in me still haunts my subconcious to this day.
As I hope I have expressed, capital punishment is no where near the solution to all problems. Certainly what your parents did was a good start, and if it worked, then it was plenty. Not everyone is so fortunate. The parents arsinal should cover the full gambit, but all used as spareingly as possible. Clearly physical violence shouldn't be the first resort, but the last, fact is, each and every child is different.
My comments:
I live in America, New York City, and I am an atheist. Most of the people I know arent very religious... My dad brought me to church every other sunday when I was a kid, I told him I didnt like it and it was boring, and he stopped making me go. Most of the people I know arent very religious at all. Bush apprently is one of our more religious presidents, but hs not like a fanatic or anything, just belives religion is good because it teaches morals.
At for disapline with children, parents should be allowed to hit thier kids.. within reason... for example, when my dad was growing up, the least little backtalk or mischif and u got beaten.. hard. Now, kids arent touched. It needs to be in the middle... 1 clam warning, then if the kid keeps misbehaving, a good smack... its proven to work. Senseless violence fucks kids up, but if applied right its good disapline.
I think we need stricter punishments in the USA, we need a hybrid between USA and USSR... the freedom of USA, but IF you do wrong, you get the shit kicked out of you and its its bad enough executed, like in the former, ussr, and still today in Russia. Then people are still free to do whatever, as long as it isnt crime. With really strict punishments, people will do less crime, and thoes criminals who cause crime anyway will be eliminated.
Now, here are the things that I look at in this as bad: 1.) Children do not legally understand their miranda rights. As such, at least one of her parents or an attorney should've been present at the questioning. It was obvious no one had been there seeing as the child was released to the mother after it all (at the juvenile assesment facility). 2.) Handcuffs are only used on people who are deemed a flight risk or injury risk. I sincerely doubt a nine year old girl is either of those. 3.) The responding officer is supposed to be impartial. As I mentioned before the officers are legal witnesses and mediators... If the mediator gets mad at you, he or she is no longer mediating... They're attempting to punish, which is not in the job description of a police officer. I would remind you again that you are taking the word of a clearly untrustworthy 9 year old rather unquestioningly. Even if everything she said were true (not that she said much of importance) and taking all your points above into consideration do you not think that her parents were involved in this? Personally I find her claims very suspicious wrt the handcuffs because she'd have to be a seriously fat little thief for them to stay on at all let alone be too tight. As for taking her into custody - the article states that this was a legal requirement in the circumstances.
As far as your third point is concerned I disagree at least partially. It is also the role of the police to prevent crime and if by teaching this kid a lesson he does that then he is doing his job.
I'm not a fan of the whole 'scared straight' bullshit plays, because they don't work. Why? Because when you're young getting a strict lashing once won't prevent you from doing it again, it has to be a constant process until you finally learn not to do something. If it happened before and the child still hasn't learned her lesson, I heartily doubt that the punishment will stand afterwards to keep the lesson learned.I'm not sure what you mean here. I disagree with the first part, single incidents can and often do have very strong effects on people especially at a young age. The second part you seem to be saying she's been arrested before but I'm sure I'm misreading that.
/edit @Jack - I don't think anyone is suggesting she get the chair ;)
/edit @Vet - Contrary to some cold-war propaganda Russia never had institutionalised child abuse.
JackScratch
13-04-04, 02:52
/edit @Jack - I don't think anyone is suggesting she get the chair ;)
Did I misuse capital? I believe that still refers to physical punishment of children, at least when used in this context. Although lets not rule that one out, could work. I believe abortion should be legal up till the 20th year.
Do I agree with jernau or JackScratch? The only ammunition I have is:
I believe abortion should be legal up till the 20th year.If that means what I think it means, do you mean you are not a member of society and thus do not have the rights afforded us until you are legally adult?
Nothing wrong with spanking, I still like a good spanking every now and then. :angel:
With regards to abortion.... (not that said topic has much place here in this thread in the first place)
To me it's the easy way out. If they do the sex at any age, they have to deal with the consequences, positive or negative.
And that's not even going into thinking about the 'person' you're killing with abortion...
JackScratch
13-04-04, 05:58
Hello!?!?!? Glok?!?!?! Kenjuten!?!?! 20th year!?!?! Freaking Joke!!!! I believe in abortion, but that is off topic. What I was saying, in about as clearly a spoof way as can be said, is that people be allowed to knock off the little bastards till around the age of 20. You 2 need serious help.
*gazes into his crystal ball* I foresee this thread being closed because the topic is getting out of hand.
I never discuss 3 things with people I don't know and at work. Politics, Religion, and finances.. they always seem to turn the conversation ugly.
I believe in mandatory sterilisation for everyone, and in order to have children you have to get a permit.
"We are breeding ourselves into the sea" - William S. Burroughs
I'm still of the opinion that violence should not be the answer... scare tactics like the bunny stealer are ok, I suppose. But it should be a last ditch attempt and any parents who have to go that far need to look seriously at their parenting techniques.
I mean, hitting a child is really harsh because there is nothing that they can do about it. You are so much stronger than they are... doesn't that make it seem wrong to you?
2.) Handcuffs are only used on people who are deemed a flight risk or injury risk. I sincerely doubt a nine year old girl is either of those.
I'm not sure where you're from, but in my part of the country, ANY suspect under arrest MUST be handcuffed. Period. (a friend of mine is a Maryland State Trooper). Not sure what the rules are where you're from, but odds are they're the same where she's from.
Freaking Joke!!!!Jack made a joke? Oh shit.
I mean, hitting a child is really harsh because there is nothing that they can do about it. You are so much stronger than they are... doesn't that make it seem wrong to you?
Of course they can do something. Tthey can either a) not earn themselves a slap or b) not get caught.
Maybe it's cos I got up but most of those posts about abortion make no sense to me. I was just pointing out that physical punishment of kids is "corporal punishment" and that execution of criminals is "capital punishment". The two are often confused in language but hopefully not in fact.
It's really scary.
I really do think, now, that such a debate will lead nowhere.
[ edited ]
But let's get back to the thread and conclude:
Your notion of what is violence and what is not violence, and how to apply it, is weird. Frankly.
Cool ! Let's threaten the little girl with this, and she won't steal a rabbit ever !!!
BE EFFICIENT.
mouahahahahaa
:eek:
ps: hum irony, he... See above.
http://www.birdman.org/images/hnsbig.jpg
Shadow Dancer
13-04-04, 14:56
Satine, can you leave the country bashing for another message board? The last thing people want is for this thread to become a "My dad can beat up your dad" country vs country debate, just because someone flung a few generalizations about.
Well this stupid thread keeps getting bumped, and I finally broke down and decided to post a reply, against my better judgement. :p
First of all, for the love of god let's not get into an abortion debate. PLEASE!
Secondly, it was obvious Jack was joking about the abortion till age 20 thing. Jeez. I know some of his views maybe radical, but that's way beyond him.
Third, about hitting a child. It's hard to say. It depends on how rough the physical punishment is, and how young they are. Obviously the punishment shouldn't be too rough, and I think hitting a 16 year old is a bit stupid. Sometimes at early ages a child will only listen when they get a spanking or so. IT really depends on the child. Every child is different. Spanking might work on some, it might not work on others. That's why I find it strange when people post stuff like "parents just need to do XXXX like my mother did. That works". O_o
I don't think light spanking is wrong on young children. If that's what you need to do to get them to listen to the rules(assuming it's a last resort), then by all means. But it can't be too hard. And I mean young children only. That's just my opinion.
I can understand why some people think spanking is wrong, or that this situation with the cop is wrong. But don't you think that something like that would be better, than having your child turn out to be some punk who grows up into an insensitive asshole? Or possibly much worse.... No one is advocating physical torture, although I don't think some people in this thread would be against that. :eek:
I don't see anything wrong in this situation, honestly. I think they were just trying to scare the child. What's wrong with that? DId he say he was going to kill her? No. IMO he gave her a glimpse of what would happen in the future if she kept stealing. She's not gonna stay young forever. And if she retains this habit, she's not going to have the luxury of being released just kuz she's a kid. They did say this wasn't the first time she stole. So what's the problem?
Have any of you ever seen the program scared straight? Sometimes you gotta scare someone by showing them what could happen if you keep breaking the rules. They didn't mistreat her IMO.
As for the cop's cold "stare". :rolleyes:
Look, maybe he did do that, maybe he didn't. I'm not to keen on trusting a 9 year old's word as if it's written in stone. The same 9 yr old who lied about the theft. Young children..............no, people in general(imo) have the tendency to exaggerate when they feel a wrong was done against them.
It could be that the officer was just glancing back a couple of times to check on her. Or maybe......................just maybe................he's HUMAN. :eek: Maybe he was angry at taking a kid back to the station, maybe he felt he could have been doing something more productive? Omg a cop getting angry? ABUSE!!1111oneonenoeone
I think some of the people in this thread are vilifying the cop too much. And i think some people in this thread are overexaggerating what has happened to the girl. She didn't serve 5-10 years in prison. She didn't come out a cold hardened killer.
lol
Anyways, that's just my opinion.
I think hitting a 16 year old is a bit stupid.
Heh, my parents have never hit me or anything like that... but if my dad tried now (I'm 16 atm) then I wouldn't have much problems stopping him. Some guys I know were stronger than their parents at 14... hitting teenagers is just a stupid idea in anycase, as at that age we're getting over the fear factor of parents. So I agree, and with most of the rest of you post as well Shad.
Satine, can you leave the country bashing for another message board? The last thing people want is for this thread to become a "My dad can beat up your dad" country vs country debate, just because someone flung a few generalizations about.
Sorry, but I really do think that what happened (without exaggerating the facts) and what people say about this event is really linked to a "country"'s way of dealing with problems.
It seems that this sort of weird event and the way it was dealt with could only happen in the States ! :lol:
I was only giving an opinion and OF COURSE I don't want to initiate a debate here, that's not the point and that would be useless.
;)
this shit makes me pissed off, she is a little girl give her a freakin break.
What also pisses me off is people who rob, and yes rob mcdonalds of their money because they didnt know the coffee was hot or the food made them fat omfg. Honestly how stupid can you be.
Shadow Dancer
13-04-04, 15:56
Sorry, but I really do think that what happened (without exaggerating the facts) and what people say about this event is really linked to a "country"'s way of dealing with problems.
It seems that this sort of weird event and the way it was dealt with could only happen in the States ! :lol:
I was only giving an opinion and OF COURSE I don't want to initiate a debate here, that's not the point and that would be useless.
;)
There will be no discussion based on a national, political, religious, sexual or ethnical nature. This is a worldwide forum with people from a wide spectrum and even when you think your aren't being offensive you can indeed offend people.
There ya go. :rolleyes:
How about this... a simple, clear moral message... a veritable beacon of sense and reason to your troubled existance....
Kill a Mime, Go to Jail
There... Now that that's clear...
9 year old girl steals rabbit... Why is anyone bitching that she's being taken to jail? Let me tell you another story of Florida:
About 3 years ago, a driver for a Greyhound bus was making the run from Ocala (central FL) to Miami. One of the people on the bus was a little old lady (the 80 year old grandmother) who had a big bag on her lap. About halfway through the trip, in the middle of nowhere, about 3am, her little yippy yap dog starts whining and barking from her bag. The driver, in *full* compliance with the company policy, stops at the next bus station. He then tells the woman that dogs are not permitted on the bus and she would have to make other arrangements. The driver informs the station manager of what has happened and then goes back to his bus and drives off. The station manager lets the lady use the office phone whereupon she calls the police. The little old lady was then shuttled from county to county by police officers (meeting another sheriff's patrol car at each county line) until she arrives at her home in Miami (before the bus arrived in Miami, no less).
Nice Little Old lady threatens to sue Greyhound for millions. The driver was suspended without pay (and later fired) when Greyhound settled out of court for around $50,000.
So the moral is... live right, obey the rules, and kill every little yappy dog you see or they'll get you fired.
Migraine
There will be no discussion based on a national, political, religious, sexual or ethnical nature. This is a worldwide forum with people from a wide spectrum and even when you think your aren't being offensive you can indeed offend people.
I am offended by the nature of what happened and of what people said about it in this forum. :D
:rolleyes:
Keep politics off this forum please.
N
What also pisses me off is people who rob, and yes rob mcdonalds of their money because they didnt know the coffee was hot or the food made them fat omfg. Honestly how stupid can you be.
Yes. Compensation culture sucks.
until you actually have to deal with a child that continuously disobeys or commits petty crimes (which usually lead to more serious felonies) you can't possibly understand the parents thought process. IMO the biggest problem in Florida (and most states of the US atm) is it always seems the laws do a better job protecting the criminal and not the victim ...
for example, I have a cousin (16yrs old) who lives in Florida and over the last several years has progressively gotten worse with regards to anti-social, petty crime behavior. His parents have tried everything possible from peer counseling, religious activity groups, professional therapy, etc. Nothing works. The kid continues to blame others and tries to 'rebel' at every opportunity. His dad is a hard working blue collar house painter. They've tried to provide as much opportunity to the kids as possible (his younger daughter is doing great in school and never gets in trouble).
His latest crime involved forging checks in order to steal over $3000 from his grandmother. This is a felony. His grandmother refused to press charges. When his dad tried to punish him by initially telling him to go to his room the son refused. His father grabbed his arm and tried to escort the kid to his room. A scuffle ensued. The father ended up pushing the kid into room. The kid calls the cops. Under Florida Law the father was charged with a mandatory Felony of Assault & Battery because a minor was involved. The cops didn't have a choice. They even told the guy he was getting a bum rap. He is now looking at jail time (5 years) plus a felony record :mad:
The kid continues to get off and now uses 911 as an excuse to further disobey and avoid punishment. hind-sight is 20/20 but maybe if the parents had used 911 to their advantage earlier on they might have been able to scare the child into going straight (since everything else they tried didn't work). As it stands now its not a matter of if but when he'll end up in jail or dead.
I think the girl is lucky. This might be her chance to make a change in her life. Hopefully the parents won't try to turn this into a lawsuit against the state or their neighbor but will impress upon the child how important it is to respect other peoples property ...
I wish her luck.
Shadow Dancer
13-04-04, 18:28
Whoa that sucks Kugero. I feel bad for that father. :(
JackScratch
13-04-04, 23:04
Secondly, it was obvious Jack was joking about the abortion till age 20 thing. Jeez. I know some of his views maybe radical, but that's way beyond him.
.
Radical? Moi?
Heh.
The little stint between me and Jack has subsided, by the by...turns out we misunderstood each other. ^^;;;
Yeah, that'll teach me to talk about abortion....even if I would know wtf I'm talking about. :lol:
Shadow Dancer
13-04-04, 23:10
Radical? Moi?
hehe yea. :D
JackScratch
13-04-04, 23:11
Agreed, disaster averted. False alarm. Kinda sad though, thought I was going to get to have another arguement, I live for that stuff.
Heh.
The little stint between me and Jack has subsided, by the by...turns out we misunderstood each other. ^^;;;
Yeah, that'll teach me to talk about abortion....even if I would know wtf I'm talking about. :lol:
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