View Full Version : Vehicle weapon reqs; Instead of H-C & Str, how about Remote Control and Willpower?
Ive always wondered about the droners implants, especially the implant called "Special Rigger Interface". Now i know from the cyberpunk novels and Shadowrun, Riggers are drivers. So it occured to me that maybe droners should be the ones controling the turrets on the vehicles, and leave the gentanks as the infantry. Now droners will be a truely interesting class if they also spec a little VHC, a spy that can use drones, use the turrets on the vehicle and drive the said vehicle. Vehicles might be more widespread as now Droners would be using the vehicles much much more often then they are used today.
Any insights, unforeseen problems, reasons why gentanks should not gun gun turrets even though they never really bother to turret anyways?
Good idea... manning a turret doens't need strength or mad heavy combat skillz. The turret will be automated and you wouldn't actually physically aim it... but would control it with some sort of neural interface. So yeah, droners own.
I'm liking this idea.. and maybe it could mean a revolution of truly "mobile" droners?
Eddie
Let the passengers launch drones from the Rhino as well. :)
I always thought it'd be cool if passengers could shoot from vhc's but have worse aim than normal. It'd be nice but with monks having no aiming reticle it'd be impactical=/
Sounds fine with me. I get to play with 100 int and 35 dex instead of just 20 STR when it comes to vehicle weapons :D
that woudl be cool but personally i think it would be cooler for special droner vehicles to be created instead. More like a small mobile mech on wheels so to speak. And this device would require vehicle fuel to run. There could be two weapons on it and when you enter it your current quick belt switches out for a vehicle weapons slot so you can actually switch from a distance fire to a quick close proximity rapid fire. There could be droners with the wheeled chair style type vehicles and then droners in a version of the spiderbot. And they should add a device in the Op undergrounds that droners can plug in to and when there are turrents up on top they can control them and switch from each one by hitting the use key or something.
Just to bring up something..
I thought Str/H-C was determined for the vehicle weapons because (at least some of them) they require good strength and knowledge of weapons to aim/fire?
I understand the Rigger bit, but...in my opinion turreting is almost the same as firiing a heavy weapon. Not exactly AoE type, but still.
Course, this post has nothing to do with my decision. Power for the Droners! :D
The req for vhc weapons is nothing to do with realistic requirements at all, it's simply that KK decided it would be Tanks who would gun them, and thus the requirements are aimed at Tanks meeting them.
TBH I don't mind what the reqs are, however it would look quite strange having a spy on the gun on the back of my jeep. Given also that the gunner position in all vhcs except the Rhino is exposed, a spy, especially a droner spy, would not last very long in the seat at all.
my spy can gun the back of the jeep :D
Forget My Name
09-04-04, 09:11
Just to bring up something..
I thought Str/H-C was determined for the vehicle weapons because (at least some of them) they require good strength and knowledge of weapons to aim/fire?
I understand the Rigger bit, but...in my opinion turreting is almost the same as firiing a heavy weapon. Not exactly AoE type, but still.
Course, this post has nothing to do with my decision. Power for the Droners! :D
Nah, KK is basing this on reality I guess, which is ironic because in reality, you dont need strength to man any large weaponry. You can man a pistol as well as you can man a .50 cal machin gun or a Howlizter ( spelled? ) artie gun. What is needed is KNOWLEDGE of the weapon, so yes, Int is required.
Or, KK can make it that there are secondary versions of each vehicl available to use, but with small differences. Like...
Your normal Tank would require the Tank stats to use, as to give Tanks something to do with vehicles. A secondary version of the tank can launch maybe 1 - 4 drones that act like soul clusters, as long as the driver of the Tank has the proper remote control and will power to control that many drones. Drone strength is not a topic of this idea, just the idea of having drones as the vehicles main weapon instead of a big laser cannon. The drones would hover within a distance to the tank and the driver would be in a gunner's seat. The droner would aim and fire like a normal Tank runner would aim and fir his Tank laser cannon, but whenever the Droner aims and fires on a target, ONE drone will lock onto that runner and fire on the target if the target comes within firing range of the drone. Each successful "hit" by the droner locks a new drone on the target.
H-C is a good skill for VHC weapons. they are heavy and even there is a lot of target equipment you still need basic physics and maintenance(<-- i hate that word) skills.
the rest is a little problematic. KK dont want spys to use rhinos as a "personal PA" (so they put in that big crank that turns the turret in a rhino :)) so STR is a good skill to prevent that.
if they change it to maybe H-C and RCL the gun will have an insane amount of H-C because KK like the thought of "you can allmost use anything as long as u gimp youself".
Ozambabbaz
09-04-04, 10:17
almsot, anything that'd remove VHC weaponry from HC, i don't think that's sane.
IMO, i'd say TC, willpower, int and dex
and make a chop-shop OP thingymabob, where u can alter the vehicles, ie engines, type of gunmount (HC or TC req'd) etc
just some thoughts
Just to bring up something..
I thought Str/H-C was determined for the vehicle weapons because (at least some of them) they require good strength and knowledge of weapons to aim/fire?
I understand the Rigger bit, but...in my opinion turreting is almost the same as firiing a heavy weapon. Not exactly AoE type, but still.
Course, this post has nothing to do with my decision. Power for the Droners! :D
All vehicles that have weapons need STR and H-C to gun them. The more advanced vehicles (Such as the Assult Bike/Rhino and Heavy Assult Trike) Need T-C.
As a droner myself and seller of vehicles, I would love to see the STR/HC changed to RCL. :lol: Just joking...
Serriously though I'm with Kenjuten on this one. Driving and gunning together, should be STR and H-C. Otherwise if this happens, a nerf droner thread will come before I can say Nerf.
Also worth pointing out the Assult Chainbike only needs INT 15 VCH 37 STR 14 H-C 35 to drive one, most people with Revellers can drive that one with a little LOM'ing!
Heavyporker
09-04-04, 16:50
yep, my monk could gun that thing (and tail gun on trike)
they're on the weak side though, because of our limited capacity for overskilling the H-C on it. I mean.. my noob spy with 50 H-C does 60s to a 45/45 swamp strangler... my H-C PE with 110 H-C does something on the order of 99s to 75/75 warbots
Seeing as the STR 14 gun needs 35 H-C to use... thats a MASSIVE, COLOSSAL, TREMENDOUS amount of overskilling to get to max capacity!
Now, now, I'm actually glad that there's such range to the damage capacity of the STR 14 gun, means that my PE will still take it out for hunting mobs (the damage output and rof actually seems ALMOST on par with trike to my PE... that's just me anyway, I take down warbots quite nicely on combat chainbike AND assault bike, equally as well as 4x4 jeep and heavy scorpion trike.) but still, flip side is - near-capped/capped chars will have a colossal advantage over low/mid chars even in a vec, which seems that it should be the great equalizer, right? Low set reqs, equal armor, means that someone capable of using it should be equal in ability to another person in similiar vec, right, meaning actual skill comes in play, right? No. Still no!
What if the guns on vehicles changed to reflect the skills of the occupant? Have a base requirement of say 85 in STR or DEX and you can use the Rhino gun. If a Tank uses it then it deals higher damage but has shorter range, if a spy uses it he gets long range but low damage, and a PE gets a mix of the two?
Sir ramic hobbs
10-04-04, 13:36
no no no no no no spies arent meant to do that kind of immense damage and a droner on the back seat would just die
Jadzia Eleazar
10-04-04, 13:46
Well, a droner vehicle would be nice, but I think it would be wiser to
change VHC guns to T-C. With T-C more classes could use a vehicle's gun
(maybe even monks firing some kind of machine gun) and most classes could use them without being gimped or over-spezialized.
The droner vehicle should be droner only, however with a small laser-cannon and ability to launch drones or small spiderbots.
no no no no no no spies arent meant to do that kind of immense damage and a droner on the back seat would just die
just wait till mechs come out :p
I still stick to my previous post about just giving droners special controble vehicles to use.
What if the guns on vehicles changed to reflect the skills of the occupant? Have a base requirement of say 85 in STR or DEX and you can use the Rhino gun. If a Tank uses it then it deals higher damage but has shorter range, if a spy uses it he gets long range but low damage, and a PE gets a mix of the two?
Now THAT is a great suggestion Scikar. I woulnd't really have any complaints if something like that happened.
Yeah, Ive always been pissed about the fact that the reqs to gun a vehicle
makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE. They are mounted tech thingies, they dont
need an ounce of strength, aiming those are all about motorics, reflexes and
experience, pretty much like playing a video game. They should be based on
things like dexterity, weapon lore, T-C etc. That would make sense, the
current situation does not.
**edit: yeah, Dex, Weapon lore as main skill and T-C as subskill for some
would make most sense imo. Spies for president. Hrm.
What if the guns on vehicles changed to reflect the skills of the occupant? Have a base requirement of say 85 in STR or DEX and you can use the Rhino gun. If a Tank uses it then it deals higher damage but has shorter range, if a spy uses it he gets long range but low damage, and a PE gets a mix of the two?
o_O
Why would a tank gun deal more damage because the gunner is stronger?
o_O
Why would a tank gun deal more damage because the gunner is stronger?
Why would you only be slowed down when carrying a gun on your shoulder, yet you can run at full speed when you put it into your magic, carry-anything invisibly pocket? Why would you be unable to fire a weapon on the grounds that you aren't 'dextrous' enough to use it? Why would learning how to use a pistol limit your progression in rifles?
Answer, because it's a game.
But if you really want an answer, OK. Tanks are dumb, remember? And they like bug guns that go boom, hence the shoulder mounted cannons. Being dumb, they don't have much sense for personal safety, and so they constantly overcharge their weapons to deal more damage, despite the risk of them exploding in their face. Spies on the other hand aim for finesse and excel in terms of precision. So the Tank deals more damage because he overcharges the gun, while the Spy achieves longer range because has the skills and precision needed to aim it at long range, while the Tank does not.
Happy?
Happy?
Not really, do you seriously like that idea?
Yes, because it doesn't stop any certain class from using them. If you put weapon lore/DEX reqs on them, then the wep lore will stop Tanks from using them very well, put the DEX above 60 and they're unlikely to meet that either. Make it STR and you cut out the spies. So instead do something to accomodate Spies, PEs, and Tanks, with a DEX or STR req and T-C. And while we're at it, put some variation in.
Clownst0pper
10-04-04, 16:32
Let the passengers launch drones from the Rhino as well. :)
Why cant we do this? its really annoying :(
Mind you, there are still alot of droner bugs...
Yes, because it doesn't stop any certain class from using them. If you put weapon lore/DEX reqs on them, then the wep lore will stop Tanks from using them very well, put the DEX above 60 and they're unlikely to meet that either. Make it STR and you cut out the spies. So instead do something to accomodate Spies, PEs, and Tanks, with a DEX or STR req and T-C. And while we're at it, put some variation in.
Id rather enhance tanks role as pure troopers and have other classes do
"extra" stuff like gunning etc. With the current status on Tanks and Spies I
feel like Spies deserve gunning, Tanks do not. If you want to keep PEs from
gunning put a int req or something on it as well *shrug*
Id rather enhance tanks role as pure troopers and have other classes do
"extra" stuff like gunning etc. With the current status on Tanks and Spies I
feel like Spies deserve gunning, Tanks do not. If you want to keep PEs from
gunning put a int req or something on it as well *shrug*
As if INT reqs ever stopped PEs before. You'll either have nobody able to gun vehicles except capped or near capped spies, or PEs will able to use them. And even if you make the INT req high, what's to stop PEs from drugging? You would take vhc guns entirely away from Tanks, and one way or another PEs would end up sat in the gunnery chairs. Let's face it, a spy in a chaincraft gun is a dead spy, and even a moderate INT req is enough to cut them off completely from Tanks.
As if INT reqs ever stopped PEs before. You'll either have nobody able to gun vehicles except capped or near capped spies, or PEs will able to use them. And even if you make the INT req high, what's to stop PEs from drugging? You would take vhc guns entirely away from Tanks, and one way or another PEs would end up sat in the gunnery chairs. Let's face it, a spy in a chaincraft gun is a dead spy, and even a moderate INT req is enough to cut them off completely from Tanks.
Just curious, do you have a problem with PEs gunning? I dont care either way
but is that one of the reasons you dont want this changed?
**edit: What I mean is this: Spies deserve to gun, Tanks do not, wether PEs
can or not doesnt matter squat imo. With dex and weapon lore on vehicles
guns then Spies would be the best at it, Tanks would still be able to gun em
all just not as well as Spies, and yeah PEs would be able to gun em pretty
well also.
Just curious, do you have a problem with PEs gunning? I dont care either way
but is that one of the reasons you dont want this changed?
**edit: What I mean is this: Spies deserve to gun, Tanks do not, wether PEs
can or not doesnt matter squat imo. With dex and weapon lore on vehicles
guns then Spies would be the best at it, Tanks would still be able to gun em
all just not as well as Spies, and yeah PEs would be able to gun em pretty
well also.Exactly. PEs got stealth already when they never really needed it, now we accept that PEs aren't going to give it up. Tanks have got what exactly in the last year? Our PA still has the worst negatives of any other, we're still the slowest class with weapons drawn, we still don't have any method of disengaging from a fight we're losing. CS was fine after it got boosted, PEs whine, it gets nerfed again. Devourer was overpowered, now it barely scratches anyone even with no poison resist.
By contrast, we have PEs, who recently got their own PA, stealth, the close range raygun boost, wyatt boosted, Exec boosted, Judge boosted. PEs left right and centre are drugging up and running around with spy guns. Give a Tank as many drugs as you want, you won't achieve anything. His resists and HP are already almost maxed out, and there are no super high level rares that they need to drug up to. And you want to take vehicle guns off them, and give them to PEs, under the guise of giving them to spies. And I say fuck that.
If you think PEs should be gunning Rhinos, then fair enough. But in that case, I can't see why the Doom Beamer shouldn't be a direct fire ray weapon. You give PEs an uber gun, on top of their Executioners, so surely there's no harm in giving Tanks one?
EDIT: And if it's weapon lore and DEX, you firstly screw the tanks who spec psi use just to be able to fight better solo, and secondly keep them out of using any weapon with a higher DEX req than 60.
Unless it got fixed, you can drone while riding in a vehicle, you just can't launch.
Request access to the vehicle, but launch a drone before the owner clicks 'accept'. The drone will stay in the air, and you get put in the vehicle when the owner finally accepts the request.
Sorry sci, but you make it out to sound like we should feel sorry for tanks,
when in fact melee and h-c tanks are currently the most effective fighting
class both for duels and for OP wars. The only thing they dont do so well is 1
vs 1 guerilla fighting when theres alot of terrain to move around in, and how
often does that happen :rolleyes: Now, I want to remove gunning from
tanks, and give it to spies, I dont care how its done, and if you can come up
with a realistic way of doing it which doesnt involve PEs getting it then im
completely down with that. This is not "giving it to the PEs in guise of giving
it to the spies", I couldnt care less about PEs gunning or not gunning tanks.
Whats bothering me is that spies cant and that the current situation is
stupidly unrealistic, so stop putting words in my mouth.
**edit: also, Im still in favour of making tanks even better as infantry by for
example putting a low level shelter effect on their PAs or buffing their
weapons or whatever.
Sorry sci, but you make it out to sound like we should feel sorry for tanks,
when in fact melee and h-c tanks are currently the most effective fighting
class both for duels and for OP wars. The only thing they dont do so well is 1
vs 1 guerilla fighting when theres alot of terrain to move around in, and how
often does that happen :rolleyes:
FYI, it happens to me every day at MB, where I fight PEs who stealth in to the bunker to PK, and I fight them solo.
Now, I want to remove gunning from tanks, and give it to spies, I dont care how its done, and if you can come up with a realistic way of doing it which doesnt involve PEs getting it then im completely down with that. This is not "giving it to the PEs in guise of giving it to the spies", I couldnt care less about PEs gunning or not gunning tanks. Whats bothering me is that spies cant and that the current situation is stupidly unrealistic, so stop putting words in my mouth.
**edit: also, Im still in favour of making tanks even better as infantry by for
example putting a low level shelter effect on their PAs or buffing their
weapons or whatever.
All that's nice but, realistically, tanks are never going to get their PA boosted. Maybe if Tank PA4 hadn't been put up to 135 STR by PEs who whined that with no PPR and no moveon and with a herc a Tank could keep his PA4 on without drugs, I would be more sympathetic.
As far as I see it, if you want my support for the idea, then you find a way to give the tank gun to spies and not to average PEs. If PEs can use the Rhino gun and tanks can't, then that's unacceptable IMO, and it's up to you suggest an alternative. I'm not doing your work for you.
As far as I see it, if you want my support for the idea, then you find a way to give the tank gun to spies and not to average PEs. If PEs can use the Rhino gun and tanks can't, then that's unacceptable IMO, and it's up to you suggest an alternative. I'm not doing your work for you.
Im sorry but Dex and weapon lore would work fine, all three classes would
still be able to use it in the order of Spy>PE>Tank. That works great imo,
then we can worry about tanks being underpowered (which i strongly doubt)
later. I dont see whats so unacceptable about PEs gunning them better than
tanks either, logically thats how it should be but just since thats not how its
been up until now its suddenly of the chart for some people :/
**edit: and stop pulling in things that doesnt have anything to do with the
discussion like how "whiney PEs" got the Tank PA 4 to req 135 (???). I always
liked tanks, and Ive been advocating artillery type cannons and whatnot in
several threads. This is just about making tanks do what tanks are supposed
to do, being supreme infantry, and making other classes take over other roles
so that you want to bring a mix of people to team fights.
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