View Full Version : Poll Antigank suggestion
Recently I observed several incidents on saturn that bothered me a lot. One of which was a player who after getting GR killed at MB repeatedly dumped all his belongings on the ground and said fuck this game.....
I pulled my LE (**/16) and went to crytons and back to the dancers and began to reimplant LE i was at 47% when the door opened and a PE with a rare blasted me. Give him credit though i GR'ed straight back and he didn't kill me again. Some of the nube ganking is probably related to players seeing red and wanting to get the first shot in unfortunatly rank is somewhat hard to see at times.
Some of the raids are real fun to watch when its CM and allies vs BD. When evenly matched there seems to be a lot more challenge and ive seem CM win some and BD win some. So my issues are really not with protecting MB more or changing the possability of killing nubes but with imposing some sort of detrimental effect on people who kill well below their rank.
One of the problems is that nube players display the same as capped players if they aren't wearing PA and not all capped players wear PA's. But in reality a low percentage of ganking is mistaken identity, most is killing without any danger to the ganker. A capped player killing a **/20 would in real life be the same as a marine machinegunning a schoolyard kid with a jackknife.
The idea is that persons "ganking" be imposed with a SI penalty dependant on their relative rank (NOT combat) to the victim IE:
Victim within 10 ranks NO penalty
Victim 10 to 15 ranks below 1% SI (next to no penalty except to people running the edge on their combat gear who would then be SUBSTANTIALLY higher in combat rank)
Victim 15 to 25 ranks below 5% (is this about same as drone death si ? not sure)
Victim more than 25 ranks lower 20% SI
Probably in order to do something like this KK would have to make rank more visable via color or size or people would just have to be more carefull about pulling the trigger, either though would be fine.
Mods if this gets any attention feel free to move to brainport i just wanted to post the poll in general to see responces.
no
if you dont want to get ganked dont take the LE chip out, i cant make it any simpler than that
Hot damn ezza you are fast replyed beforee i posted :P
Hot damn ezza you are fast replyed beforee i posted :Plol i must of saw this thread coming :lol:
Shadow Dancer
08-04-04, 15:46
Yes their should be huge penalties for killing players way below your rank. Unless they are a hostile faction.
SI no, SL maybe, Faction Symp maybe.
I dont agree with killing noobs just cause they're red but at the same time if you make to many negatives for a high level palyer then yuo could get a situation where noobs run into fights knowing full well if a high level hits them they're going to get loads of SL or whatever.
I'd like to see people punished more for killing lower levels than for higher levels but I'd like to see the soul light and faction symp system fixed first.
No.
Scenario 1: Low level PPU damage boosts high level runner. High level runner kills PPU and gets SI for it?
Scenario 2: Low level runner follows high level runner around MB saying in zone where he is. High level runner kills low level runner, gets SI and is promptly killed because he can't use his weapon.
Scenario 3: BD raid MB. There is no time to check ranks on every person you see. If you stop to check ranks then you get shot first because they just have to look for Black Dragon while you have to check for rank. BDs all get SI as a result and can't use any weapons. Some fight.
Scenario 4: Currently due to the borked Faction Sympathy system, to switch factions almost always requires killing a friend's low level char in a particular faction in order to get your symp up with another. I state TG as an example - fight TG's enemies and you get -99 sympathy with every faction except TG. You can't do missions at all for anyone, and it takes literally hundreds of kills to get symp up to do missions with anyone, while it takes merely 10 to drop back down that low again. Switching factions would be damned hard if the only way to kill someone like this was with fists.
EDIT: @SD: If they're not in a hostile faction there should be a severe penalty anyway. Rank is irrelevant, you simply shouldn't be killing faction allies full stop. If you want to kill those people you should be forced to move to a faction hostile to them, otherwise learn to live with them. Compromise is the key to diplomacy, and if someone isn't going to tolerate diplomacy what are they doing in a faction that has allies?
Nooooo
no no no no no no no......
Richard Slade
08-04-04, 16:11
Well since Ezza says no I have to say yes
But since I don't like the idea I have to say no...
Decisions decisions...
Anyways... Stop the carebearing.. The reason you play is because you can kill
I think SI is a bit harsh. So I'll have to say no to your SI hit idea. But I think this should work on a SL variant instead. I've always though you shouldn't reallyl suffer much SL for killing a person within your own rank area or at least 10 ranks below .. the lower you get after that you should suffer more SL and if you kill someone that is like a 0/2 at a 2 or 3 star level you will suffer massive SL hit. But I also thing ranks should be noticeable maybe in some way.
if you dont want to get ganked dont take the LE chip out, i cant make it any simpler than that That may be so ezza but with people having outdated neocron manuels or people telling people that are low level " why do you still have your LE chip in?" "My ppu can't buff you with LE chip in" blah blah blah. What do you expect. Some people aren't patient enough. Some people aren't "ahem" smart enough. So what happens when someone constantly ganks you cause you didn't know any better? Yeah maybe they can grit their teeth and bare it but not everyone has that sorta patience or time to bare with getting killed at a level they have no way on earth to protect themselves. We want to keep people not get them frustrated before they can even do anything.
some games make it so you cannot target a player who is outside your pvp range, so if ur a /40, u cant target say, a /30 or a /50, just ppl rank /31-/49, which does work, and introduces cool elements like, who's the best /20 fighter n stuff.
Richard Slade
08-04-04, 16:16
some games make it so you cannot target a player who is outside your pvp range, so if ur a /40, u cant target say, a /30 or a /50, just ppl rank /31-/49, which does work, and introduces cool elements like, who's the best /20 fighter n stuff.
And also gives the fact that ranking sucks a problem..
I mean the hybs can't mess with a spy dammit
I like the UO way.
Get murdercounts for every player you kill, get 5 and you go red until you've been ingame long enough to remove a count, moving you back to "innocent" status.
Also if you carried on killing after being red, if you died you would suffer "statloss" (loss of skills), 20% I believe at the time I left the game. You could go back to "innocent" status again, but if you kept pingponging between statloss and innocent, you wound up Perma red.
Always thought that was a pretty good system, obviously in NC it won't be quite as effective, as no matter what faction you are (and you HAVE to be one) there is always an enemy meaning you are red to them, enabling them to kill you freely. But I just like the idea of if you keep killing neutrals/allies, you should take statloss if you die, and eventually go permanently red.
I don't particularly care about being killed when I've low rank, I do agree with the fact that rank doesn't display very well. IMO, rank should be seen at any distance, like the name. I know there are many people who kill newbs just because it amuses them and quite often can't kill people of their own level, but making that small change might make the normal PvPers who fight against their own or thereabouts level, be able to see that it's a newb coming their way and not a capped tank without PA or a weapon out.
Since the SI system annoys probably 99% of the players in the game, I think adding more bs SI is going to make players even more frustrated. I don't care dying... what pissed me off is that I have to wait 5-10 minutes each time after that. Also accidents do happen when there's a big brawl and I wouldn't want my weapon to turn red in the middle of a fight because a stupid runner went into the line of fire.
Yes, but only in areas that aren't warzones. People would use them for spies and abuse it to make people lose SL and faction. Double penalty for doing so in hunting areas.
Also no penalty if the low level player attacks the high level player for whatever odd reason. After all, if you're stupid enough to attack, you're asking for it right? That includes damage boosts.
No SI though.
No.
Scenario 1: Low level PPU damage boosts high level runner. High level runner kills PPU and gets SI for it?
Scenario 2: Low level runner follows high level runner around MB saying in zone where he is. High level runner kills low level runner, gets SI and is promptly killed because he can't use his weapon.
Scenario 3: BD raid MB. There is no time to check ranks on every person you see. If you stop to check ranks then you get shot first because they just have to look for Black Dragon while you have to check for rank. BDs all get SI as a result and can't use any weapons. Some fight.
Scenario 4: Currently due to the borked Faction Sympathy system, to switch factions almost always requires killing a friend's low level char in a particular faction in order to get your symp up with another. I state TG as an example - fight TG's enemies and you get -99 sympathy with every faction except TG. You can't do missions at all for anyone, and it takes literally hundreds of kills to get symp up to do missions with anyone, while it takes merely 10 to drop back down that low again. Switching factions would be damned hard if the only way to kill someone like this was with fists.
EDIT: @SD: If they're not in a hostile faction there should be a severe penalty anyway. Rank is irrelevant, you simply shouldn't be killing faction allies full stop. If you want to kill those people you should be forced to move to a faction hostile to them, otherwise learn to live with them. Compromise is the key to diplomacy, and if someone isn't going to tolerate diplomacy what are they doing in a faction that has allies?
All your examples are vaild, but the question is more of picking the lesser of two evils. Is the problem of noob ganking costing the game more then the problems that would happen with putting somthing like this system in the game. It kinda walking on a balance issue. I think noob ganking is a big enough problem that warrents action. I dont know if this is the answer but I think maybe something along the line of an exp hit with a math kinds like this.
KR= Killers Rank
NR= Noobs Rank
(KR-(NR+20))*10000= EXP HIT/(all stats with gain mod)
So if you rank is xx/66 and the guy you wack is XX/36 then you will lose 100k exp.
If you are XX/66 and the guy is XX/20 then you will lose 200k
due to the fact that the NR gets a + 20 you wont take a hit for killing people within 20 ranks of yourself.
Now there is one big problem here 200k to a tanks str is not a big deal but 100k to psi is hard. Same with monks DEX. So make it cut down with the same rate that the char gain exp. IE tanks take the full hit to STR/CON. But only take ~10% to psi and same with monks full hit on PSI/INT but less on DEX/STR.
This makes killing the one or two noobs that just piss you off or just was in the wrong place at the wrong time ok. But noob ganking as a hobby a bit harder.
The SI idea is because it's not something the player has to "repair" like SL. KK could make it so that the penalties work in hunting grounds and not in warzones. The PPU example Scikar gives brings up a great point BUT right now Neocron tracks who does what damage as we all have had borked SL hits from aoeing im sure. Easy enough to code it so that mutual combat LOOPs around this penalty.
SI is used in my idea because it's the idea of REPEATEDLY killing a low rank runner just for kicks. Id like to see the ganker unable to use his wep after several ganks.
I was fighting a melee tank at MB the other day and 2 low/mid lvl monks come over, 1 APU and 1 PPU.
The PPU heals the half dead tank and they both join in attacking me.
I come back a few minutes later and see the PPU there still, so I kill him.
People moan at me and ask me why..
They had the choice. LE or not, I would of left them alone at their level. They made the choice to start joining in PvP, so I'll treat them accordingly.
If you add something like that in, this will happen all the time. Lowbies will join in fights, sometimes turning the tables against you, but you can't attack them because you'll be punished.
Your idea is too easy to exploit..
I was fighting a melee tank at MB the other day and 2 low/mid lvl monks come over, 1 APU and 1 PPU.
The PPU heals the half dead tank and they both join in attacking me.
I come back a few minutes later and see the PPU there still, so I kill him.
People moan at me and ask me why..
They had the choice. LE or not, I would of left them alone at their level. They made the choice to start joining in PvP, so I'll treat them accordingly.
If you add something like that in, this will happen all the time. Lowbies will join in fights, sometimes turning the tables against you, but you can't attack them because you'll be punished.
Your idea is too easy to exploit..
In real life if a kid saw you fighting his dad in HIS back yard he might help his dad. That would hardly give you justification to come back later and butcher him on his swingset.
I was fighting a melee tank at MB the other day and 2 low/mid lvl monks come over, 1 APU and 1 PPU.
The PPU heals the half dead tank and they both join in attacking me.
I come back a few minutes later and see the PPU there still, so I kill him.
People moan at me and ask me why..
They had the choice. LE or not, I would of left them alone at their level. They made the choice to start joining in PvP, so I'll treat them accordingly.
If you add something like that in, this will happen all the time. Lowbies will join in fights, sometimes turning the tables against you, but you can't attack them because you'll be punished.
Your idea is too easy to exploit.. yup ive had that, i killed a tsunami guy so some lowbie merc decides that he will practice his targeting skills on me, so a few seconds later ive downed the annoying little gimp, could argue i should of left him he wasnt gonna do much, but thats irrelevent he attacks i kill, why should i suffer for that.
In real life if a kid saw you fighting his dad in HIS back yard he might help his dad. That would hardly give you justification to come back later and butcher him on his swingset. real life shouldnt be compared to the game, and the kid wouldnt know better, in game the noob should realise what gonna happen if he attacks someone, or if hes enemy to someone
Shadow Dancer
08-04-04, 16:38
In real life if a kid saw you fighting his dad in HIS back yard he might help his dad. That would hardly give you justification to come back later and butcher him on his swingset.
rofl
The difference is, low rank doesn't mean young or ignorant.
You're comparing mental age with low rank? O_o
:P
We want to keep people not get them frustrated before they can even do anything.
Amen. People are always complaining about low population, but then many seem to delight in turning away noobs or flaming people who quit.
Devils Grace
08-04-04, 16:46
Some people aren't "ahem" smart enough. So what happens when someone constantly ganks you cause you didn't know any better? Yeah maybe they can grit their teeth and bare it but not everyone has that sorta patience or time to bare with getting killed at a level they have no way on earth to protect themselves. We want to keep people not get them frustrated before they can even do anything.
ppl are inteligent, dogs are smart.
if ppl see that they are ganked severall times, thay acepted like all of us acepted, kuz everyone here, in some way, were ganked when they were nibs.
Did u quit the game, no and why ?
kuz u acepted that its part of the game, killing does not look at ranks, ur enemy, face that, better yet look at what scikar said (yes him, dunno how he pulled that one but he is right)
rofl
The difference is, low rank doesn't mean young or ignorant.
You're comparing mental age with low rank? O_o
:P
Amen. People are always complaining about low population, but then many seem to delight in turning away noobs or flaming people who quit.
Agree that low rank isn't a factor in mental age the point im making is that te lowbie PPU and APU were defending their home turf when they saw they had a chance. This is actually a good thing it promotes faction pride and trains nubes for fights. To come back later though and gank the lowbie is pretty poor taste. Again KK im sure can code this so that mutual combat negates the penalty.
I don't have much sympathy for players who keep going to the same GR over and over again to die over and over again. I mean seriously, what did he expect?
"Well I've killed you once and had my fun so now I'll help you get your stuff back. Also do you need any pokes?"
No it doesnt happen that way. An enemy is an enemy. Now while I personally dont camp GRs and think its a pussy thing to do, if I killed some one say at MB, and he came back, then he'd die again. Sure I might feel bad for killing him again but its the principle. I dont let red players live, plain and simple.
Heres MY antigank solution. Make friends with some high level people in your faction. When you get ganked by an enemy, call in your friends, every single one you can, and go hunt down the bastard who killed you. Kill him, then sex his body just for good measure. THATs satisfaction, not "haha you killed me so many times you have SI now." Trust me man, the system we have now is better for both the ganker and the gankee. Lets try not to "carebear" this game up any more, lets stick to a game where we can roleplay.
if u really cared then you could police the situation up at times youreself....I with a few friends were in PP1 and this capped tank who was my same faction kept killing this next xx/10 or so, I am all down for PvP and all, but when someone is that low thats rediculous, so I told him to not kill him again, first cause i was tired of rezzing the little fucker and having him kill him again(this was pre-rezz¶nerf) so he did it again, I holy parad him, DB him, and parashock bolted a capped tank to death hacked his belt and gave his rare to the next noob for wasting my time.......
DIY or it will never get done
edit: its fucking pathetic how this vote is turning out, its sad that half of you would actually get a penalty, you no skill having bitches
In real life if a kid saw you fighting his dad in HIS back yard he might help his dad. That would hardly give you justification to come back later and butcher him on his swingset.
You but lowbies aren't the "kids" of the game.
Lets re-write you scenario to suit the game:
In real life your a weekling. You see one of your mates being attacked. You join in and you both win the fight. You could hardly be surprised if you got the shit kicked out of you next time you saw the bloke.
You but lowbies aren't the "kids" of the game.
Lets re-write you scenario to suit the game:
In real life your a weekling. You see one of your mates being attacked. You join in and you both win the fight. You could hardly be surprised if you got the shit kicked out of you next time you saw the bloke.
A **/20 vs a capped gen tank in your example would equate not to a weakling but to a person paralysed from the neck down. If you are trying to convince me that returning later to gank the "weakling" is a heroic thing to do i'm missing it entirely.
A **/20 vs a capped gen tank in your example would equate not to a weakling but to a person paralysed from the neck down. If you are trying to convince me that returning later to gank the "weakling" is a heroic thing to do i'm missing it entirely.
No because a **/20 char could do some damage.
As far as ganking is concerned I think ganking faction allies is a problem. Ganking enemies is not a problem no matter what rank your target is. Its a shitty thing to do to a noob, but it aint a problem for NC as a game.
I dont think SL loss by ganking faction allies is enough. You should be fined heavily for breaking your factions rules. Alot of wads and finally if you dont comply with the rules and keep on breaking them, finally you are fired/outlawed and get labeled as an anarchy breed because you clearly you are not a person to trust for any faction and therefor red to all. There should also be some way to redeem yourself.
Factions in NC has no meaning because of 3 things: 1. There are no speciall awards outside the epic rewards and 2. There is no consequence except SL for doing things your faction wouldnt want you to do and 3. Your faction demands nothing of you. Why there isnt any sort of tax or get 300000 units of whatever mission to your faction is beyond me.
Its getting apparent to me that to much freedom is overrated and killing someone takes on a shape of pointlessness.
No because a **/20 char could do some damage.
Aye do you return to slaughter dragonflys after all your raids because i believe those are probably twice as damaging as a **/20 PLAYER
Aye do you return to slaughter dragonflys after all your raids because i believe those are probably twice as damaging as a **/20 PLAYER
if the dragonfly attacks then yes you kill it, unlike a player the dragonfly aint stupid enough to come back time and time again
Wouldnt work as ranks arew fucked. I`m rank 84/74, would be hard to find ppl to kill without getting hit by that rule....
You dont wanna get pked? Use your LE.
Wouldnt work as ranks arew fucked. I`m rank 84/74, would be hard to find ppl to kill without getting hit by that rule....
You dont wanna get pked? Use your LE.
plus its easy to lower my rank to gank noobs, but with my 100 cons its still not gonna be fair by my guys using a noob weapons is it, but thats the way it goes, you cant judge by rank.
i mean i can zone a few times and lose my rank to below 5, onoz i can punch noobs to death.
as i said and as sork here says use your LE
Just make rank more visible.
Like I said.
Not hard to implement, surely? Might go a long way too. You'll never get rid of all the newb killers, but being able to see rank instantly might put paid to accidents.
Devils Grace
08-04-04, 17:12
and dont forget another thing that usually hapen
HIGH Rank pk n00b
n00b come out of the GR
" u stupid fuck, cock sucking motherfucker." FIREAPOC
"yea keep on coming dumbass im getin con" FIREAPOC
"u lazy bastard without cojones, suck my dick asshole" FIREAPOC
FIREAPOC
FIREAPOC
FIREAPOC
and ....and ....and...
thing is u dont want that to hapend, just dont gr back, or keep ur LE in
lol @ DG. Way with words as ever ;)
:D
I think most people can deal with being killed once or twice, and if they GR to their appt, or a different GR close to the area, then there won't be much chance of being killed by the same person.
GRing back to the same GR over and over is just..... :rolleyes:
plus its easy to lower my rank to gank noobs, but with my 100 cons its still not gonna be fair by my guys using a noob weapons is it, but thats the way it goes, you cant judge by rank.
i mean i can zone a few times and lose my rank to below 5, onoz i can punch noobs to death.
as i said and as sork here says use your LE
Ezza its not about me. I know enough to leave my LE in on my lowbies on saturn and my nonle on pluto takes chances just like everyone. It's about seeing people with no chance in hell getting blasted for no good reason. Like i said in my original post just watching an even fight is a thrill being involed in one is awesome...... BUT seeing gankers killing nubes with NO consequence iritates the hell out of me.
Wouldnt work as ranks arew fucked. I`m rank 84/74, would be hard to find ppl to kill without getting hit by that rule....
You dont wanna get pked? Use your LE.
I'm sure it could be adjusted to base rank and not combat rank and also after a certain rank like 40s maybe? it wouldnt' matter anymore and there are no penalties anymore. for higher levels that are extremely high to kill you.
I'm sure it could be adjusted to base rank and not combat rank and also after a certain rank like 40s maybe? it wouldnt' matter anymore and there are no penalties anymore. for higher levels that are extremely high to kill you.
Excellent point wish i had thought of the above /40(ish) thing when i made poll. As well as kid brainiac's situation.
Just make rank more visible.
Like I said.
Not hard to implement, surely? Might go a long way too. You'll never get rid of all the newb killers, but being able to see rank instantly might put paid to accidents.
How about removing rank all together EDIT: visually that is. In most situations the only person who gains anything from the rank showing is the pk`er. If he doesnt know what rank his enemy is perhaps he will be a little more carefull?
Devils Grace
08-04-04, 17:42
How about removing rank all together EDIT: visually that is. In most situations the only person who gains anything from the rank showing is the pk`er. If he doesnt know what rank his enemy is perhaps he will be a little more carefull?
no
simply kuz there are diferent roles
when a pker goes to place X to pk he pk's everyting that moves
ohters go to place X to fight and they choose who to fight
with that both will pk evertying that moves
so acording to ur carabear calculations, that will worse even more the situation
plus the more noobs you kill the leet3r you are k
Devils Grace
08-04-04, 17:57
any doubts ??
here
I've seen a couple of complaints about random PKing. What I don't understand is why don't the people who complain use the ingame mechanics to go against that? Why don't vet players (e.g. like Spookie, a highly valued NC long timer who PMed me that he also has concerns about random PKers in Neocron) initiate a clan to protect newbies? PvP _is_ a base element of the game. That also means that we want to give more freedom to the players and give _you_ the tools to go against random PKers. Hey, it's a post-apocalyptic cyberpunk world, so why don't you realize that there are some amok weirdos going postal?
Here's what I would do: Keep your Law Enforcer in until you grow stron enough. Organize yourself with other players who suffer from that same problem. Ask high lvl players to help or even protect you when you want to explore unsafe zones. There has to be another solution than turning Neocron into Carebear's paradise. I'm open for your input.
__________________
Martin Joerg Schwiezer
CEO of REAKKTOR.COM
simple right
this is a bit old but the situation is the same
if it was now he will had to add, Carabears paradise, whiners, nerfing maniacs, and lvl 3 bicthes :lol:
Put it this way, in what situation does a newbie get ganked?
First, he has to be in an unsafe area. That means Pepper, OZ, anywhere in the wastelands, outside a hunting zone.
Second, there has to actually be an enemy there. That means not within a faction HQ, and not in a place frequented by enemies.
Finally, the enemy he meets has to be the kind of person who will happily kill newbs. And for the record, I don't fall into that category. However, someone like myself who will normally leave a newbie alone, will usually have no problem whatsoever in killing a newb from a hostile faction who starts shit talking him.
And even then, what's really so bad about being killed? We're talking about a post apocalyptic world where the only government exists within the city centre of Neocron. Everywhere else THERE IS NO LAW. Do you walk down a dodgy alley in Glasgow and expect to come out of the other side with your wallet still in your pocket? No, so why do you expect to walk through Pepper Park and live? Being killed is all part of the atmosphere. Most people learn to live with it, and then usually they realise it's actually part of what makes Neocron great, because you have that feeling, that rush, of will I make it through this zone or not? Oh shit, there's an enemy Tank in PA, will he kill me, or won't he? That's part of the atmosphere, it gets your pulse rate going and adrenaline rushing. I know because I had that exact thing when I was a newb, and I loved it.
But of course there will always be some people to whom that is completely unacceptable. So what can you do:
1) Keep your LE in. If you have some misguided reason for taking the LE out, fine, but now you have to be careful.
2) Don't go to dangerous areas like Pepper 1 without a very good reason. Certainly don't go there and expect to be left alone.
3) Don't go to popular areas for PKers. If you're levelling at MB Bunker, you're a prime target. By contrast, the exact same mobs can be found in OZ. Get some mates together and go explore OZ. It's great XP for a newb and it's also good fun exploring and seeing all the smashed up buildings, mutants etc. It's packed full of mobs so there's no sitting around waiting for a spawn.
4) If you do get killed, get your pack from the GR, and go somewhere else for a bit. Don't go back to get your belt straight away, because a) it's not very valuable, and b) the killer might wait at your belt until he can get it hacked.
Just use a bit of common sense. This game, unlike the majority of other MMORPGs, needs some common sense, and some effort. It's not a mindless camp where you stay in the same place all day every day killing the same mob and never fighting other players. You have to do all this yourself, the game isn't going to do everything for you. And that includes staying alive.
EDIT: I apologise to anyone in Glasgow if they are offended by my comment, but I couldn't think of a better example of the top of my head. :p
no
simply kuz there are diferent roles
when a pker goes to place X to pk he pk's everyting that moves
ohters go to place X to fight and they choose who to fight
with that both will pk evertying that moves
so acording to ur carabear calculations, that will worse even more the situation
Uhum ok. So if pk`er goes to place x and see three monks with no rank showing at all he is going to attack them even though he has no idea if they are rank 30 or capped? Thats bullshit. We all know that alot of people on a pk`ing run goes for easy kills. And why do you say that this is carebear?
It seems to me that to you carebear=anything that takes power away from
the pk`er to choose fights he can win or know he has a chance to win and also know who he can slaughter without even breaking a sweat.
Its not suggestion that will stop you from pk`ing all you want, it just makes it a bit more uncertain. Rank is information that gives you a feeling of security because you never need to go out on a limb. How about you stalk the 3 monks and see what kind of damage they do to mobs while they cant see you and get an indication about what lvl they are. Edit: You know trying to think a little and play smart instead of getting all your targets handed to you on a plate.
Just use a bit of common sense. This game, unlike the majority of other MMORPGs, needs some common sense, and some effort. It's not a mindless camp where you stay in the same place all day every day killing the same mob and never fighting other players. You have to do all this yourself, the game isn't going to do everything for you. And that includes staying alive. You, sir, get a motherfuckin cookie!
as strange as might it seems i have to fully agree with devil's grace. There is absolutely no solution to this. This is griefer's game and there is not much we can do about it - the red = dead tactics is encouraged by the game mechanics and there is no way to prevent this, except LE that is.
Problem is that real noobs don't know what they are going into, they don't know why they should keep the LE in (also, for some unknown reasons, they always think that LE give them severe penalties... where they are reading this?), they don't have any high lvl friends neither seem to know (or even willing to try) other places than aggie cellars/mb/crp. They usually don't realise that they are going to be killed multiple times if they are coming back for their backpacks and so on and so on... they are noobs, after all.
So, there's no solution to this, really. Griefing is inevitable part of this game, and it will inevitably turn off some people from playing NC, still i hope they will remain some who survive...
From my experience on pluto - monthly i've witnessed usually no more than 2 new people leaving the game due to ganking, so it's not that much, but it's the part of the whole process i guess. So, overall amount of people leaving to ganking should be then around 10 people monthly. Is it too many? hard to say without knowing the amount of new players joining the game each month...
Anyways there should be some warning sign for all new people if they are decide to take off their LE - You're about to be ganked repeateadly and continuosly! The good thing is u can gank others too! Are u wish to proceed? Y/N
Bwahahahahahaahha
Devils Grace
08-04-04, 18:17
Uhum ok. So if pk`er goes to place x and see three monks with no rank showing at all he is going to attack them even though he has no idea if they are rank 30 or capped? Thats bullshit. We all know that alot of people on a pk`ing run goes for easy kills. And why do you say that this is carebear?
It seems to me that to you carebear=anything that takes power away from
the pk`er to choose fights he can win or know he has a chance to win and also know who he can slaughter without even breaking a sweat.
Its not suggestion that will stop you from pk`ing all you want, it just makes it a bit more uncertain. Rank is information that gives you a feeling of security because you never need to go out on a limb. How about you stalk the 3 monks and see what kind of damage they do to mobs while they cant see you and get an indication about what lvl they are. Edit: You know trying to think a little and play smart instead of getting all your targets handed to you on a plate.
no ur wrong
saying that pkers "only go for easy kill" is not true
everyone has his style
there are mainly reasons for them only kill nibs
" X is pking at MB"
" i i wont bother to go kuz he is a stealthing whore"
or
"nahh he has a ppu up is ass so is not worth my time" (me)
or
" nahh they are to many, and we dont have enough ppl"
so they kill what comes in the way
besides ppl like to say they only kill nibs, to bash them and call them 12 yeard old kids, without any balls to fight grown up ppl, wich is not true
removing ranks only will do that eevryone kills on sight kuz they dont know where the danger can come from.
so there will be, like some like to call themselves honorable fighters, kuz they will kill whatever that moves, and the pker's will continue there killing at their own pleasure
want to stop them, read the statemnmet in my other thread
I say massive increase on the penalty for killing more than one ally/neutral faction, remove the penalty for killing enemy factions, maybe even add a bonus for it!
The LE protects newbs, so we should aim at making a strong inter-faction, intra-side (DoY/NC) bond through the use of tougher rules. Soullight should represent your overall status in comparison to your side, not the world, so that:
1> People ALWAYS kill low-SL people because they are ganking their own faction/allies not just some newbs.
2> People can be beaten up by NPCs like copbots in DoY, TG, FA, etc, if they have low SL because it means they are a traitor and deserve it.
Thats my opinion, anyway!
Steve
Devils Grace
08-04-04, 18:25
Problem is that real noobs don't know what they are going into, they don't know why they should keep the LE in (also, for some unknown reasons, they always think that LE give them severe penalties... where they are reading this?), they don't have any high lvl friends neither seem to know (or even willing to try) other places than aggie cellars/mb/crp. They usually don't realise that they are going to be killed multiple times if they are coming back for their backpacks and so on and so on... they are noobs, after all.
well i dont agree with u in this part.
come on
everyting in life (including this game) is about life experience
EG - u never saw oil at high temperature (boiling ? spell?)
u stick ur finger it and u burn it
question :
will u stick the finger insdie again
i hope u dont
there is no dumb ppl, only stupid ppl. everyone some more then others are inteligent, so if a nib gets killed a couple of times by trying to get his belt or backpack, do u think he will fall a second time in one like that ?
of course not
he will say
"fuck me, im goin to GR to my appy and not goin for my backpack kuz he might be there waiting"
there is no dumb ppl, only stupid ppl. everyone some more then others are inteligent, so if a nib gets killed a couple of times by trying to get his belt or backpack, do u think he will fall a second time in one like that ?
of course not
he will say
"fuck me, im goin to GR to my appy and not goin for my backpack kuz he might be there waiting"
well, uhm, u know it and i know it, yet for some strange reason 90% of the noobs would come back again and again and again... then after beeing killed xx times they just saying "fuck me, i'm leaving..."
I don't see any sense in this, but i've witnessed such behaviour too many times... Guess many players doesn't treat the game as all other everyday life experience, but as sumthin... different?
well, uhm, u know it and i know it, yet for some strange reason 90% of the noobs would come back again and again and again... then after beeing killed xx times they just saying "fuck me, i'm leaving..."
I don't see any sense in this, but i've witnessed such behaviour too many times... Guess many players doesn't treat the game as all other everyday life experience, but as sumthin... different?
So we have to protect people from their own stupidity and ignorance now? And we do it at the expense of people with some common sense? I don't think that's very reasonable.
Reasonable, no.
But it's good business...
So we have to protect people from their own stupidity and ignorance now? And we do it at the expense of people with some common sense? I don't think that's very reasonable.
And have u read my former post maybe? Probably not... Of course we shouldn't do it - that is why i said that this game inevitably has to turn down some people from playing it - for their own good probably as they would leave sooner or later. And i am not to judge is it good or bad. If there will be enough amount of those who can survive than it's ok, gank them at your will...
Devils Grace
08-04-04, 18:53
Reasonable, no.
But it's good business...
business ?????
whats worse
nib gets killed x times untill he learns that the dude who killed him is a asshole
or
Get in game 1st time, auu what a cool game
10 minutes later "FRE"
what ?
maybe its my computer
logs back in
goin to synch to other zone" crashes""get stuck in synch"
comes back and his death kuz mob/faction guard/player killed him while crashed.
logs back in
GR
"retrieve backpack button"
no backpack
KK i lost all my invenotry
" heres a cookie errr... 100 k"
hmm damn
ok
LOg back in
server down....lagggg........synch into others appy, the owner of the appy kill him
and........and ..............and ..........
business ???
yea i also know some of the troubles kk has and the reasons behind some actions, does the nib ?
And have u read my former post maybe? Probably not... Of course we shouldn't do it - that is why i said that this game inevitably has to turn down some people from playing it - for their own good probably as they would leave sooner or later. And i am not to judge is it good or bad. If there will be enough amount of those who can survive than it's ok, gank them at your will...
I got through it, didn't I? But no I don't gank random newbs. However, as far as I'm concerned, dying as a newb is part of the game. If someone dies as a newb, and is killed by a high level player, and he doesn't like it, then that will carry on throughout the time he plays. When he's hunting alone and gets killed by 2 people teaming up, he'll complain about that too. When he's at an OP war and the other side bring twice as many people, he'll complain about that. Where's the difference, and where do you draw the line?
Fact is, if they can't cope with being killed as a newb, they're not going to cope with being killed at any time outside of duels. And duels are not Neocron's PvP. So the game simply isn't for them, and I wouldn't be surprised to see them leave. It's sad that they don't like it, but that's what the game's about, and it doesn't pretend to be 'nice'. Neocron sits comfortably in it's own little niche, if it wants to keep every player who tries it then it will have to become more like Everquest and other MMOs. And it can't compete there, because it was never meant to.
Neocron caters to a particular style of player, though across some range. It's absolutely brilliant for combining RP with PvP. The constant PvP battles raging everywhere mean relationships are dynamic, and RP is always fresh. Unfortunately the majority of players couldn't care less about this RP oppurtunity and just focus on PvP, that's the sad part. But this is Neocron's strong point, it's whole foundation, and little 'carebear' changes like this are steadily eroding that. It started with quickbelts, they were a necessary change but KK went too far. And it's been mostly downhill since then. At the bottom of the hill are games which have been there for years, and they'll paste NC in terms of player base if we ever drop that far. A carebear Neocron is a dead Neocron.
@Scikar
actually... i have to fully agree with you.
The whole concept, foundation of this mmorpg is brilliant and probably the best of all mmorpgs out there.
It's just what i'm always saying - people, or so called community make it as it is right now - it still has the potential to be greatest game ever, yet it's in the hands of people who are playing it.
i agree with you m8 you should be punished for killing lower ranked players, however posting it on here was probably a waste of time, most of teh uber leet play0rs will shout loud and strong against it. i havent even read the thread but i bet someone said "keep your le in" the type of person who will be surprised DoY is a failure because they ganked every n00b they saw because they are under the mistaken impression this makes them skilled.
Devils Grace
08-04-04, 20:25
i agree with you m8 you should be punished for killing lower ranked players, however posting it on here was probably a waste of time, most of teh uber leet play0rs will shout loud and strong against it. i havent even read the thread but i bet someone said "keep your le in" the type of person who will be surprised DoY is a failure because they ganked every n00b they saw because they are under the mistaken impression this makes them skilled.
true in someway
but it also makes the feared
i remenber back in the days, that i would shit my pants if i saw Megaman name in local, i knew i was about to drop flat.
bahh so what, it was god damn fun
i agree with you m8 you should be punished for killing lower ranked players, however posting it on here was probably a waste of time, most of teh uber leet play0rs will shout loud and strong against it. i havent even read the thread but i bet someone said "keep your le in" the type of person who will be surprised DoY is a failure because they ganked every n00b they saw because they are under the mistaken impression this makes them skilled.
So after the thread has gone on, you then predict what it will say? Why don't you have a read? Exactly what use is your post, when everyone's gone to all the trouble of justifying their arguments and then you come along and post this?
(bunch of largely incoherent babble) So by your "logic", because there's other problems that, in your eyes, are more important than new players being victimized, griefing nibs is OK? A vertible paragon of reason are you. http://neocron.jafc.de/images/smilies/old/rolleyes.gif
My point, which you apparently completely missed, was in response (actually more an addendum) to Scikar's. He was saying that this is a game that doesn't reward mindless play. I agreed, but said that mindless play is good business. Witness the success of Everqueer, Star Wars Gaylaxies and Final Timesink 11 if you doubt that games which require nothing more than time spent in boring repetition, like a hamster whacking a lever for a feeder pellet, make loads of money.
I'd like to think that this game caters to a more intelligent playerbase, one with a desire for a more interactive world, challenging PvP gameplay, and a steep learning curve. Sadly, people who talk like this:
no u have to explain why arent u a moron
ive explained why u are
so far u only said that "im not"
and i said " u are" and i posted why
ur turn make me reconsider.
[ edited ]
true in someway
but it also makes the feared
i remenber back in the days, that i would shit my pants if i saw Megaman name in local, i knew i was about to drop flat.
bahh so what, it was god damn fun
Try it again pretend your new to this game and roll a CM spy. Level to /16 or /20 and do some nube stuff like putting points in IMP (believe me you'll be happy about this) Don't tell your clan or mates or twink your char. Beg on trade or local for a wep to be csted and tip the tradeskiller the 5k you have left from leveling to /16. Don't mouth off to anyone or make any real friends or enemys. Then pull your LE and play for a few hours. Let me know how "fun" you find this.
I doubt many peeps are reading this but if you run this test and 30 other yellow level 20's are running around shooting each other try again in about a week.
Devils Grace
08-04-04, 20:48
So by your "logic", because there's other problems that, in your eyes, are more important than new players being victimized, griefing nibs is OK? A vertible paragon of reason are you. http://neocron.jafc.de/images/smilies/old/rolleyes.gif
My point, which you apparently completely missed, was in response (actually more an addendum) to Scikar's. He was saying that this is a game that doesn't reward mindless play. I agreed, but said that mindless play is good business. Witness the success of Everqueer, Star Wars Gaylaxies and Final Timesink 11 if you doubt that games which require nothing more than time spent in boring repetition, like a hamster whacking a lever for a feeder pellet, make loads of money.
I'd like to think that this game caters to a more intelligent playerbase, one with a desire for a more interactive world, challenging PvP gameplay, and a steep learning curve. Sadly, people who talk like this:
make me reconsider.
[ edited ]
actually the poor english that i wrotte, i learned in this game.
and if i writte and speak my own language, they way some that are english or american or some other english spoken country do, i would shot my self in the foot.
and yes i dont think killing nibs is what makes them leave the game,
DID u ?
did all the rest that are here
why in fact ppl is leaving the game ?
pking ?
righhhhhhhhhhhttttttttttttt.
actually the poor english that i wrotte, i learned in this game.
and if i writte and speak my own language, they way some that are english or american or some other english spoken country do, i would shot my self in the foot.
and yes i dont think killing nibs is what makes them leave the game,
DID u ?
did all the rest that are here
why in fact ppl is leaving the game ?
pking ?
righhhhhhhhhhhttttttttttttt.
No, it's mostly because they don't get PKd, they get fucked over by 10 people all together, who then DM him and tell him how they 'pwned his ass', despite him being a tradeskiller spy in the same faction.
Clownst0pper
08-04-04, 20:52
I really hate the idea of killing players lower than me. So much so that recently ive even stopped killing faction enemies if they are low level, clanned or not.
Whether being FA has turned me into a care bear, i dont know. I like to fight in OP war zones, and against people who are worthy of dying, and a challenge. Otherwise your just ruining there game, and there day :( :mad:
Hive, Devil's Grace is portugese and I commend him for doing his best using English instead of evading the game entirely because of the common language.
On the other hand, I'd say newb/faction politics and alterations to the game to account for them should be left until after BDoY is released, as i doubt that any further patches will be produced until that is out, and even if they were BDoY is overhauling most of the current system anyway.
Steve
Devils Grace
08-04-04, 20:54
Try it again pretend your new to this game and roll a CM spy. Level to /16 or /20 and do some nube stuff like putting points in IMP (believe me you'll be happy about this) Don't tell your clan or mates or twink your char. Beg on trade or local for a wep to be csted and tip the tradeskiller the 5k you have left from leveling to /16. Don't mouth off to anyone or make any real friends or enemys. Then pull your LE and play for a few hours. Let me know how "fun" you find this.
I doubt many peeps are reading this but if you run this test and 30 other yellow level 20's are running around shooting each other try again in about a week.
besides teh fact i always taken my LE out in every chars i have, so ive done what u said.
so u try this
go to jupiter like i did, try to ask things in their language, (resser, cst, poker, deals, trades, etc) from scratch with no alts and money from them to back u up, making a fucking efort to speak their language.
aprat from LE wich the main reason i havent taken it off yet kuz the friends that went with me dont want to take them so soon so i stick with it so i can lvl with them.
DO that and then after let me know, wich is worse
i started playing this game when pluto was a damn good server, when pking was a lot worse then it is now, when HQ were raided every minute and there was no guards like there is now, so ive been thro what u are saying
and im still here
I understand exactly what you're saying Brackk. Since I came back to the game after my six month break, I've been more or less clanless everywhere. I started leveling new characters on Saturn (where I know next to no one), Venus (where I hooked up with some old Uranus friends who basically can't do anything for me since I'm in the wrong time zones), and Jupiter (where I know people, but never see anyone either). You're right, it's a bitch.
But having said that, I agree with Scikar. Play smart, and learn from your mistakes, and you're fine. If you act like a mindless sheep and keep returning to MB Bunker after the 20th time some Twilight Guardian or Black Dragon ganked your 15/18 spy, I have no sympathy. If you see red people coming and ignore them, your loss. I, for one, run like a scalded cat when I see red people. I don't wait around to see their intentions. I pick a direction and haul ass. If I die, screw the belt and backpack. It ain't worth dying again. At that level I've got nothing of value anyway.
Know who else was always a big proponent playing smart and not following the crowd? Vetterox. I know a lot of people hate him, and yet he managed to level his tank on Saturn pretty much unmolested. I mean, it's not like he chose a hard to guess name for the character if you knew him from Pluto. Yet he only got PKd like twice while he was capping his tank. Why? Because he didn't level at the typical mindless sheep spots. He ran when he saw red people. He didnt' put himself in shitty situations.
That's all it takes. Don't be a dumbass.
[edit: Mingoo, it doesn't take much to type "you" instead of u, or use capitalization and punctuation. It's just laziness, and whenever I see it, right or wrong, I dismiss whatever the person is saying. If they can't be bothered to spell words out, I can't be bothered to consider them. If their thoughts are important enough to post, then they should have enough pride to at least make an effort to not look stupid. Yes, I know it makes me sound really sanctimonious. Oh well. I got enough friends.]
Devils Grace
08-04-04, 20:57
No, it's mostly because they don't get PKd, they get fucked over by 10 people all together, who then DM him and tell him how they 'pwned his ass', despite him being a tradeskiller spy in the same faction.
ive never dmed anyone, and i hate when ppl dmed me
now i do like some trash talk over ooc
besides teh fact i always taken my LE out in every chars i have, so ive done what u said.
so u try this
go to jupiter like i did, try to ask things in their language, (resser, cst, poker, deals, trades, etc) from scratch with no alts and money from them to back u up, making a fucking efort to speak their language.
aprat from LE wich the main reason i havent taken it off yet kuz the friends that went with me dont want to take them so soon so i stick with it so i can lvl with them.
DO that and then after let me know, wich is worse
i started playing this game when pluto was a damn good server, when pking was a lot worse then it is now, when HQ were raided every minute and there was no guards like there is now, so ive been thro what u are saying
and im still here
Never mind then if you have experienced it all and you find my scenario to be "fun" then you have a far different idea of "fun" than the rest of the human race.
ive never dmed anyone, and i hate when ppl dmed me
now i do like some trash talk over ooc
The point is, people aren't leaving because they got killed, they're leaving because the community is basically complete shit. It's currently nothing more than an online chat room based at 12 year olds except you can kill people when you disagree with them.
Funny, I again agree with Scikar. Although, I think that this is partly the responsibility of the GMs, to police the idiots and control the mindless shittalk on Trade and OOC. But the problem only arises because the players choose to act like tards.
Funny thing is, even though we assume they're all kids, most of the worst offenders fall into the 16-21 age group.
One of the most enjoyable online games I've played recently was a NWN persistent world where the DMs had disabled the "shout" channel. Ahh, the blissful silence. All games should do this...
I just hate seeing people driven away. I like the game and i have adjusted to LE and nonLE Neocron. I do far more research into games that i play that the average person so i KNEW to expect everything that iv'e encountered. I pulled my LE on that /16 just to see what it was like. If you are a really into S&M or take it lightly it is no big deal. Some folks who are just starting NC though probably feel helpless, outnumbered and are worried about loosing their level2 imp and the fact that they have 10k in the bank to recover their shit.
You've just gotta accept that this game's not for everyone, just like I've finally accepted that, no matter how much some of my friends like them, I'll never play something like FFXI for more than two weeks.
Put it this way, in what situation does a newbie get ganked?
First, he has to be in an unsafe area. That means Pepper, OZ, anywhere in the wastelands, outside a hunting zone.
I would agree with your logic except for the fact that 3/4 of the time I'm inside the MB and 1/2 the time I'm inside TH my non-L.E. characters get snuffed by various people who massively outrank me in skills and equipment, and are usually not red to me (and mostly attack from behind, but that is a different issue). Not in the wastes nearby, not in the sewers zones, but right in the heart of the building. To me these should not be considered unsafe zones... Maybe its the fact that the GenRep lists them as safe jump-points. Maybe its that they have a lot of guards (blind ones apparently). But mostly its that I would not expect the center of such fortresses to a free-fire zone.
And no, I'm not going to put my L.E. back in or hide in safe zones with those characters. I prefer a combative environment and want the removal of all safe zones. But sheesh, some of the places that people get away with serial ganking is absolutely ridiculous. If you were the owners of MB or TH would you tolerate any unsanctioned weapons fire inside your base?
3) Don't go to popular areas for PKers. If you're levelling at MB Bunker, you're a prime target. By contrast, the exact same mobs can be found in OZ. Get some mates together and go explore OZ. It's great XP for a newb and it's also good fun exploring and seeing all the smashed up buildings, mutants etc. It's packed full of mobs so there's no sitting around waiting for a spawn.
Hey, I thought you were pointing out earlier that OZ is an unsafe place to be.
I would agree with your logic except for the fact that 3/4 of the time I'm inside the MB and 1/2 the time I'm inside TH my non-L.E. characters get snuffed by various people who massively outrank me in skills and equipment, and are usually not red to me (and mostly attack from behind, but that is a different issue). Not in the wastes nearby, not in the sewers zones, but right in the heart of the building. To me these should not be considered unsafe zones... Maybe its the fact that the GenRep lists them as safe jump-points. Maybe its that they have a lot of guards (blind ones apparently). But mostly its that I would not expect the center of such fortresses to a free-fire zone.
And no, I'm not going to put my L.E. back in or hide in safe zones with those characters. I prefer a combative environment and want the removal of all safe zones. But sheesh, some of the places that people get away with serial ganking is absolutely ridiculous. If you were the owners of MB or TH would you tolerate any unsanctioned weapons fire inside your base?
If they're not red to you, then there's already a penalty, so this is irrelevant. As I've said, I am very much against killing faction allies/neutrals, so that's a moot point. Besides that, it's very rare to see a TG or BD wandering the halls of MB now that the guards have been boosted.
It sounds to me like what you really want is for the CityMercs to defend their base better. The guards are already 120/120, there isn't much more KK can do. Adding a stupid mechanic which penalises PvP more than it stops ganking is not going to change anything there. If you're getting killed in MB, then complain to the CityMercs and get them to do something about it. Getting KK to do something about it is not going to help the game.
Hey, I thought you were pointing out earlier that OZ is an unsafe place to be.
Why does everybody have to try to be so pedantic these days? Did I not say that I consider hunting zones to be safe, since there is a penalty for killing someone there?
First, he has to be in an unsafe area. That means Pepper, OZ, anywhere in the wastelands, outside a hunting zone.
Hey look, so I did! And where do you find Launcher Cyclops? In OZ storage you say? And are OZ storage areas hunting zones or are they not hunting zones? They're hunting zones?
I rest my case.
So after the thread has gone on, you then predict what it will say? Why don't you have a read? Exactly what use is your post, when everyone's gone to all the trouble of justifying their arguments and then you come along and post this?
because a small vocal minority on here have already made DoY noob unfriendly by getting safe zones removed. i assume you were one who said "put your le in" ? i like to keep my characters to themselves i like to pootle about doing my own thing, like a lot of people. i dont mind some guy starting a fight, but stuff like shooting my rank 50 spy in the back while hes at an ASG with a fully capped tank is just pathetic. wearing le has other drawbacks that outweigh removing the wanker factor imo. BUT i am willing to sacrifice a brain slot if i must. all this is moot coz i dont really play either of my accounts much anymore. too busy being exceptionally good at a game that requires true fps skills ;)
because a small vocal minority on here have already made DoY noob unfriendly by getting safe zones removed. i assume you were one who said "put your le in" ? i like to keep my characters to themselves i like to pootle about doing my own thing, like a lot of people. i dont mind some guy starting a fight, but stuff like shooting my rank 50 spy in the back while hes at an ASG with a fully capped tank is just pathetic. wearing le has other drawbacks that outweigh removing the wanker factor imo. BUT i am willing to sacrifice a brain slot if i must. all this is moot coz i dont really play either of my accounts much anymore. too busy being exceptionally good at a game that requires true fps skills ;)
That doesn't mean you can come on here and ignore everyone else's post. FYI, I've just spent the whole thread explaining what else you can do, and why it's not so bad to get killed in the first place, etc, and then you come along and lump with the rest of the 'put your le in noob' crew, it's not exactly going to put a smile on my face is it?
"Well I've killed you once and had my fun so now I'll help you get your stuff back. Also do you need any pokes?"
hmm I never PvP, but I did for a short time and I helped anyone who needed am implant put back in or get there backpack. I believe it should be fun for both people in a game.. But attacking someone more than once makes it boring for the other person. I also believe giving other players respect.. ^.^ Which alot of people in neocron dont care about..
Devils Grace
08-04-04, 23:29
[edit: Mingoo, it doesn't take much to type "you" instead of u, or use capitalization and punctuation. It's just laziness, and whenever I see it, right or wrong, I dismiss whatever the person is saying. If they can't be bothered to spell words out, I can't be bothered to consider them. If their thoughts are important enough to post, then they should have enough pride to at least make an effort to not look stupid. Yes, I know it makes me sound really sanctimonious. Oh well. I got enough friends.]
funny thing is that it was here where i learn the wonders of internet quick talk, and the :P :D 0_o thingys so blame ppl like u that tought me to type like this.
besides poiting out my spelling mistakes is all u can do, then go ahead i got plenty to be corrected....
now we all know that u can writte perfectly ur own language, and i am here writting your's with mistakes but understandble, and i can actually also understand you.
[ edited ]
DG, you can't use the excuse that it's not your first language. You're perfectly capable of typing accurate and correct english, you just can't be bothered. German isn't my first language either and I don't know it very well, that doesn't mean I spell everything sloppily and post incoherently.
And btw, flaming in any language is still flaming.
Devils Grace
08-04-04, 23:45
DG, you can't use the excuse that it's not your first language. You're perfectly capable of typing accurate and correct english, you just can't be bothered. German isn't my first language either and I don't know it very well, that doesn't mean I spell everything sloppily and post incoherently.
And btw, flaming in any language is still flaming.
yea perhaps i can, but that doesnt mean i have to or i want to, or like him that hasn't anything to say about the subject that was in discussion, so he prefered attacking what was easy, my spelling
Its absolutly hypocrite pointing out someone spelling or pontuaction on a diferent language that isnt his native one, when he doesnt know a single word of mine, or any other language.
besides although nid edit all the parts in diferent language i didnt flame in any of them i typed there, cept for the last part in capitals at the end in portuguese.
This is English Comm Talk. ;) Check your PMs, btw.
N
yea perhaps i can, but that doesnt mean i have to or i want to, or like him that hasn't anything to say about the subject that was in discussion, so he prefered attacking what was easy, my spelling
Its absolutly hypocrite pointing out someone spelling or pontuaction on a diferent language that isnt his native one, when he doesnt know a single word of mine, or any other language.
besides although nid edit all the parts in diferent language i didnt flame in any of them i typed there, cept for the last part in capitals at the end in portuguese.
..and calling him an asshole in german. ;)
It is wrong for someone to complain about your spelling and grammar as a non-native speaker, especially when he can't speak your native language, however hivemind wasn't attacking that, he was complaining about you being too lazy to write full sentences and words. Nobody minds the occasional mistake, but when you cut everything down to 'u', 'ur', etc. it pisses people off.
JackScratch
09-04-04, 00:01
the problem is not in the game, it is in the players, and how is ganking a 2 star pure cst any better than ganking a noob? The only way to stop the ganking without ruining the game is to do it in game. Remember who the gankers are and shun them, gert others to shun them, don't do business with them, don't talk to them. Make this game non ganker friendly and the problem will be solved.
the problem is not in the game, it is in the players, and how is ganking a 2 star pure cst any better than ganking a noob? The only way to stop the ganking without ruining the game is to do it in game. Remember who the gankers are and shun them, gert others to shun them, don't do business with them, don't talk to them. Make this game non ganker friendly and the problem will be solved.
The key point being: Do it yourself, and don't do it by getting the game mechanics changed.
Devils Grace
09-04-04, 00:26
I fully agree with both of YOU :p
the problem is not in the game, it is in the players, and how is ganking a 2 star pure cst any better than ganking a noob? The only way to stop the ganking without ruining the game is to do it in game. Remember who the gankers are and shun them, gert others to shun them, don't do business with them, don't talk to them. Make this game non ganker friendly and the problem will be solved.
My 45/62 cst/res droner on pluto is in the same boat BUT i have played NC for a while now and i know what to expect. I stealth when i see yellow in local and keep moving around. He dies real easy to almost any class half his level if caught in the open. Thing is i DO have stealth and a nube doesnt have that luxury. My poll never considered giving trade gimped chars the benefit because like me you choose to gimp.
A nube can't stealth, get away or fight back. There is no honor in killing someone who is totally vulnerable. In one of the other threads people are talking of "zergs" and how its cheesy and takes the fun out of the game. Well heads up killing someone who is defenseless is cheesy and takes the fun out of the game......................
No, of course there shouldn't be penalties. What happens when multiple low ranks gang up on a high rank and he kills them all?
EDIT: SHOULDN'T
no ur wrong
saying that pkers "only go for easy kill" is not true
everyone has his style
there are mainly reasons for them only kill nibs
" X is pking at MB"
" i i wont bother to go kuz he is a stealthing whore"
or
"nahh he has a ppu up is ass so is not worth my time" (me)
or
" nahh they are to many, and we dont have enough ppl"
so they kill what comes in the way
besides ppl like to say they only kill nibs, to bash them and call them 12 yeard old kids, without any balls to fight grown up ppl, wich is not true
removing ranks only will do that eevryone kills on sight kuz they dont know where the danger can come from.
so there will be, like some like to call themselves honorable fighters, kuz they will kill whatever that moves, and the pker's will continue there killing at their own pleasure
want to stop them, read the statemnmet in my other thread
Sorry for answering a little late.
Anyways, first of all. I`ve never said that all pk`s kill noobs. I said alot of them do. I`m also not pushing any idea that prevents anyone from killing noobs. I don`t want anything that physicaly prevents anyone from killing who they like and I welcome the removal of safezones, but there has to be consequenses for a players actions.
I don`t think your assessment of what is going to happen if ranks are removed is right. First of all I`m talking about situations where faction enemies kill each other. In a situation where a player meets one single enemy situation most of us kos each other 90% of the time. If ranks are showing or not wouldnt change much. of course noobs will get ganked and perhaps by players that would let them be if they knew their rank. I would rather be ganked because someone wants to shoot first and ask later rather being shot dead just because the pk`er can do this without any risk and just for being an ass. To me there is a big difference between the two. The fact is that noobs are powerless and also wears a big sign that tells everyone that they are powerless. This means that when pk`er X sees 3 noobs he thinks ohhh sweet 3 easy targets. Instead when ranks is removed he will see 3 targets, but have no idea if they are easy to kill or that attacking them means certain death. This means that noobs can gang up and avoid getting attacked because they might be a potential death trap for the pk`er. This is what I mean by not serving gankees on a silverplate. Its to easy to do a threat assessment in NC. Also 2 of the players can be noobs and one can be a capped player guarding them. The pk`er wouldn`t know. So the "power" lies in the hands of the noobs and not like it is today in the hands of the pk`er.
This would also make the game less mindless because your knowledge of the game, equipment and armor(especially with doy where different armor is going to show) will help you assess your odds before going to a fight. Maybe doing recon would have a meaning for once and players might even be able to set traps for other players.
Speaking of mindless, pk`ing friendly or neutral factions is mindless and it makes factions feel worthless and it makes NC a less good game. I think that when joining a faction you stick with the program or else you are out. Lawless. Today factions are just indicators of who you should kill or not. There is no consequense(sl isnt a consequense its a nuisance). Killing everything that moves is just stupid, there is nothing hardcore about it. Its not the reason I play NC and I dont think that is what NC is supposed to be about. If I get in that mood I start up ut2004 and play a deathmatch game. KK should either re-work the faction system so it controlls the different players and clans actions or just remove it all together.
I'm pretty sure I made valid points in this thread a couple times Devil's Grace, you're just choosing to ignore them. You're also choosing to try and paint me in opposition to your views on this subject, which I'm (mostly) not.
If you're bothered by people saying they ignore your posts because you choose not to spell, punctuate or capitalize (which is what's really going on here), then there's an easy fix. I know full well you can write very good, correct English when you choose to, so why you insist on typing like a nine year old AOL monkey on crack with ADHD is beyond me. (That's not a flame either, that's a legitimate observation, just made crassly. :) Don't get pissed, because I'm not flaming you. When I flame, it's pretty clear.) You make good points, and provide an important viewpoint, but it's often overlooked by people because they see how you choose to type and ignore you, or worse, lump you in with the "OMG WTF PUT UR LE IN NUB!!112" crowd.
A nube can't stealth, get away or fight back. There is no honor in killing someone who is totally vulnerable. In one of the other threads people are talking of "zergs" and how its cheesy and takes the fun out of the game. Well heads up killing someone who is defenseless is cheesy and takes the fun out of the game......................
it has been pointed multiple times - it is up to players to discourage such behaviour.
Every single time i've shouted a warning on nc-trade about pkers in mb or any other place, every time i was trying to officially get some help, every single time there was always the same answer...
"fuck u noob, stop spammin"(???) or "stfu noob" (quite popular) or "and who the fucking cares?" and the like... So the case is simple. Start helping the noobs. Protect them. Listen to them? Anyone?
I'm too tired for this, really - on the 'most noob friendly server' (pluto) there is only one single clan (except DS that is) who actually care about their clan reputation and discourage such behaviour (gueSS ?). All other major clans have responded to my messages concerning noob pkiling in the same fashion as mentioned above (who cares, fuck off, lol we gonna pwn ur lil clan, etc etc).
It just seems pretty ridicoulus to me when people discussing things like that and in game i cannot see anyone who would actually try to punish gankers in any way. Hypocrisy gone amok, as someone would say...
No, of course there shouldn't be penalties. What happens when multiple low ranks gang up on a high rank and he kills them all?
EDIT: SHOULDN'T
Read the thread dude youre a day late and a dollar short thats already been discussed.
JackScratch
09-04-04, 01:30
The key point being: Do it yourself, and don't do it by getting the game mechanics changed.
I defy anyone to show that I have ever said otherwise. And no, useing my words completely out of context does not count. I have in the past suggested posibities for game mechanics changes only as what one might consider a last resort, or a compramise, but evedince will show that I have always been against, and always will be against game mechanics changes, in anything but the most dire of circumstances.
On a side note, Random/Faction PKers are in fact inconsiderate pricks who should be ostricised and griefed completely from the game.
There is a solution a lot easier than making all these complicated PvP rules that people are so willing to try and impliment, and its called using your LE. It was made for a reason. I guarantee you won't have a thing to worry about reguardless of rank if you use this one simple implant. So.....NO.
Problem is that real noobs don't know what they are going into, they don't know why they should keep the LE in (also, for some unknown reasons, they always think that LE give them severe penalties... where they are reading this?)
Probably because in the manual, it says that because you are safe from harm using an LE, you get penalties elsewhere. Apparently there were originally two skill attribute requirements listed on an item to be used : Skill needed with LE in, and Skill needed without LE in.
When the LE was in, you needed higher skill. Although this doesn't show up anymore and isn't implemented any longer, people reading through the manual would assume that it IS still in the game and therefore take their LE out in order to get better results from EXP etc.
Hopefully there aren't many cases of that, but I wouldn't be surprised that the manual was the reason they took it out for.
Devils Grace
09-04-04, 01:55
I'm pretty sure I made valid points in this thread a couple times Devil's Grace, you're just choosing to ignore them. You're also choosing to try and paint me in opposition to your views on this subject, which I'm (mostly) not.
If you're bothered by people saying they ignore your posts because you choose not to spell, punctuate or capitalize (which is what's really going on here), then there's an easy fix. I know full well you can write very good, correct English when you choose to, so why you insist on typing like a nine year old AOL monkey on crack with ADHD is beyond me. (That's not a flame either, that's a legitimate observation, just made crassly. :) Don't get pissed, because I'm not flaming you. When I flame, it's pretty clear.) You make good points, and provide an important viewpoint, but it's often overlooked by people because they see how you choose to type and ignore you, or worse, lump you in with the "OMG WTF PUT UR LE IN NUB!!112" crowd.
It's easier, and faster.
I like a good flame fest.
I don't get pissed when people flame me, i get excited :p
And no, usually people do not like my posts beacuse i try to be on the oposite side (well depends, if the subject interests me i usually give my honest opinion)
But so often my points are based on the fact that i'm a prick and a asshole in game and so i live by them, once again making people to flame, wich i apreciate. ;)
You have two parties in a PK: The one(s) doing the PK and the one(s) getting PKed. If the first ones wouldn't start PKing, the whole problem doesn't exist.
The funny thing is, the more griefplay is done, the more "carebear" rules are put into the game to prevent it. Everytime that happens these griefers are complaining about these new rules, although they are the reason for them.
Personally I am all for a free PvP system without any rules. But unfortunately it needs only one asshat to destroy the balance. Getting rid of such a "problem" as a community doesn't work either, as you need only one to "disobey" to let the whole efforts rendered useless. Conclusion: You need game mechanics to enforce fairplay (interestingly enough it's the same in RL, although there these fairplay rules get more and more destroyed/removed/ignored).
The big question is now, how can we prevent ganking in Neocron? Maybe we should remove the ranking and the faction from a runners target frame, leaving only his/her name and the clan-tag, by keeping the current SL+faction system. Most of the high level players know each other, but new players are a risk to kill after that change. Anyway, I doubt KK would do that (and most of this community would hate it, too). But oh well, someone can still dream ...
I defy anyone to show that I have ever said otherwise. And no, useing my words completely out of context does not count. I have in the past suggested posibities for game mechanics changes only as what one might consider a last resort, or a compramise, but evedince will show that I have always been against, and always will be against game mechanics changes, in anything but the most dire of circumstances.
On a side note, Random/Faction PKers are in fact inconsiderate pricks who should be ostricised and griefed completely from the game.
Actually if you calm down for a second and stop getting wound up, you'll notice I was agreeing with you. If was disagreeing with you I would have used this smiley : :rolleyes:, but I didn't.
Please don't start your argument about PKing. You already know I am against the former but advocate the latter, let's not have that argument again here when the issue at hand is entirely different.
JackScratch
09-04-04, 06:15
Bounty - LEs are pure unadultarated bullshit. They offer no solution to any problem. They are more limited than use of those stupid copbot rifles. Lets suppose for the sake of arguement someone would like to participate in a wide variety of PvP, but has no interested in dealing with Random/Faction PKing retards. What would you brilliant LE solution to that be? Random/Faction PKers are spoiled children who can't be asked to follow any rules or behave like human beings, and their rocket scientist solution is always "put your LE in" because like a broken record, that is all they can play. But leave us not forget that they will piss and moan when everyone has their LE in, which isn't a real danger now that the fucked up the ability to put it back in as well.
Scikar - Wasn't being defensive, simply makeing my position crystal clear to any who might have mis understood it, never thought you were one who did. Sorry for the mis understanding.
Shadow Dancer
09-04-04, 06:53
Bounty - LEs are pure unadultarated bullshit. They offer no solution to any problem. They are more limited than use of those stupid copbot rifles. Lets suppose for the sake of arguement someone would like to participate in a wide variety of PvP, but has no interested in dealing with Random/Faction PKing retards. What would you brilliant LE solution to that be?
You can't have your cake and eat it too.
JackScratch
09-04-04, 06:56
You can't have your cake and eat it too.
The fuck I can't, that's loser talk.
Jake Cutter
09-04-04, 09:12
Indeed, the solution to ganking should not require a change in game mechanics.
Unfortunately, the server populations aren't sufficient enough for self-policing against gankers. Maybe after BDoY...we all hope.
I am not against PvP. I have done opfights...heck, one of my chars even killed a fellow faction member because they were fraternizing with a faction enemy :D I'd say that was true roleplay. But I never went back and repeatedly killed the poor guy. I even watched him as he came back for his belt and then went on his way.
The game mechanics as they are now are decent enough, if people can practice a little personal restraint. "Killing noobs and PKing is how I relax" I have heard that one used...that person never seems to realize or care that the people he ganked are trying to play the game too. Which just goes to show you, that being an asshole in game, apparently can and often does translate to being one in real life. Funny thing...ganker is only one letter away from "wanker".
Then there's the LE. As some have pointed out, many new players apparently don't know that there are no longer penalties for having it, besides not being able to PvP, join a clan, or do the epic runs. The boxed game documentation is old and misleading...maybe KK should offer up a "New Player Start Guide" accessible from the launcher window or something to that effect. Forgive me if one exists...I'm usually too busy playing the game :)
Again, the solution isn't a change in game mechanics. The solution might be a stricter enforcement of the EULA. The changes that have been made were made because people abused the system, got too selfish, and too carried away in their aberrant behavior. Having said that, I will go back to what I mentioned as a solution: personal restraint.
Regards,
Jake Cutter
JackScratch
09-04-04, 19:19
Then there's the LE. As some have pointed out, many new players apparently don't know that there are no longer penalties for having it, besides not being able to PvP, join a clan, or do the epic runs. The boxed game documentation is old and misleading...maybe KK should offer up a "New Player Start Guide" accessible from the launcher window or something to that effect. Forgive me if one exists...I'm usually too busy playing the game :)
Regards,
Jake Cutter
And you don't regard the drawbacks you listed, plus the loss of an imp slot as rediculous and un acceptable? Other than that Jake, and the fact that you are a damn dirty Faction/Random PKer, I like the cut of your jib. You seem quite rational, and have actualy given thought and consideration to your actions as well as the actions of others. 2 thumbs up and kudos to you. Now If I can just get you to change your last few evil ways.
When I was TG at the start of retail, we were like a family inside the canyon; other TG clans cared about the security of their home, while newbies and the like had a fun time making teams and leveling in the canyon and surroundings.
Back then pk'ers weren't as restricted as they are now; that made you growing always alert, you could actually recognize the enemies by their names in local list without even physically seeing them, and the following 'Zone' alert message was like a warcall for everyone in the area. We did not have faction chat, but the word spread out even faster.
Somehow back in that time we managed to stablish a separation between rpk'ers and the rest of us. The SL system was not really different from now, however the restrictions were acceptable and pk'ers did not mind to assume their role.
I agree that there is an obvious mechanism to prevent random ganking, and it is the player itself. However the system can help players to make the step in one or another direction.
The first thing to prevent random ganking is to accept it. There are two different paths for a player, or three if we count the LE...
The first path is for those who follow the rules. They still PvP, to have fun or due necessity, however they respect hunting grounds, faction allies, and follow a basic code of morals. We are talking about green SL players.
The second path is for outlaws. Their PvP is not based in any ethic code or morals, they fight for the sake of killing, to obtain benefits at the cost of the death, to spoil your loot. We are talking about murderous criminals, red SL players.
Now the World of Neocron is a small chaotic community, where those basic roles are mixed and interfere with each other. Now you cannot recognize those that decide to follow the crime path, they walk amongst us, have the same goals and share our same places. Therefore it is hard for us to accept their existance, because the system hides them, prevents a necessary separation of both roles and lifestyles.
1st) Let's try to leave alone our personal feelings about these behaviours.
2nd) Now let's acknowledge the existance of these persons, and by accepting it we ALLOW them to exist.
3rd) But we still need a separation, order and chaos.
With the first and second steps we inhibit the necessity to condemn these persons outside the game. Therefore we understand that by their existance we have opened a new wide of roles for ourselves. Their existance assures our own and viceversa.
But we still need a separation
And here is where game mechanics and players alike play a part in the stability of this mix of roles.
Everything is inter-related. Imagine a giantic structure with thousands of millions of elements all conected to each other by different points. If you keep pressing one, more and more, until it is compressed (repressed) to its maximum state; other(s) will tend to self-balance the lost pressure put by the now compressed element.
This is what have happened with the criminal role. In an attempt to balance the 'slighty' unbalanced situation that we had, we kept (re)pressing the red SL role so less and less people fulfilled it. Now we have reached a point where no one fills that role, we have supressed a necessary role... however we cannot supress the motivations that led to it in players. We have now a system with a non-existant differenciation between the good and evil.
This leads us to believe that the element unbalanced was the honest citizen roles, the green SL players. Here is the point at which we are.
The red SL player must be accepted for our own good. The penalties must be balanced with rewards. Both lifestyles must be different in a way that is extremely hard for both to live together, even encourage people to not live together. But of course, a patent separation must be stablished since the first moment a player realizes a diverted behaviour. The player cannot see the crime as a funny thing, it has to be an act with accepted consequences, and once it is done he loses his previous life, friends, habits... to become a member of a different society, a criminal.
It has to be a fearsome step, but still accepted, viable and balanced.
On the other hand, we have found that the green SL role was unbalanced. In fact both were, but I wanted to remark a point.
We have to end with the fact that the honest citizen is a carebear and the red player an asshole. Ignorance makes us believe it, but in fact the honest citizen can have as much PvP as any criminal, or more.
The honest citizen can:
Participate in OP wars and politic hostilities
Participate in PvP tournaments and events
Assume the role of a bounty hunter, devote his game time to chase criminals and kill them for bounties and drops
Be a honest tradeskiller and serve the community
NEED to have plenty of roles to choose, so he never gets bored and decides to grief others and have his fun spoiling it from others. All these roles need a couple for criminals, with small tweaks needed to differenciate both (i.e. instead honest tradeskiller, play as a smuggler to supply the criminal society).
We have a feature to punish those who kill in leveling hunting grounds, and the punishement is to become a criminal. No work-arounds with missions to avoid SL hits, give a margin of one kill for mistakes, and the next PK you are a criminal. But in the same measured line, we cannot go nuts and make the criminal role to be unbalanced and unviable. Realize that it is a permanent state for players, persons... and a person never takes a path if he does not see a reward on it.
Now for those who seek a way to prevent random ganking. Stop looking around, all what we need is in game and ourselves.
Do we want to prevent newb ganking?
We have hunting grounds, let's make them HUGE near each faction HQ so low and medium rank players can hunt in there with their faction and allies. Look at the almost unused OutZone, it could have been improved ages ago if it wasn't for those lame aggy pits in Plaza.
Maybe then we could fill the wastelands with more high level content for capped players and capped teams.
Do we want to prevent Allies ganking?
We have an SL and FS system, let's make it work properly instead being the most ignored features in the game.
But over all the features that we could have to enrich the gameplay and make it better; let's accept that crimes can happen and play accordingly. That is the first and most important step to make; until we start accepting that both roles MUST exist in the game, nothing will change.
NO, No, no, nO.
It's jusst too easy to get killed as a lowbie without LE.
Lets say these two tanks are fighing in PP; the lowbie gets between them (on purpose or not) and catch a CS blob, BAM! one of the tanks get SI or SL or some other silly penalty...
How mutch easyer can it get then to jusst keep the LE in ? I jusst dont get it...
Poll results are fucking shocking btw...
JackScratch
09-04-04, 21:20
Screw the LE, the LE is worthless and so is faction sympathy. I might, might would accept the LE as an option if it didn't take up a slot, weren't restricted at higher levels, didn't pre emt clan membership (I would even accept implimentation of LE clans, no OP abilities). But even with those Im certain there are problems I haven't considered. Those are simply the most obvious. If people would stop being inconciderate dicks, and hold everyone else to that standard as well, the problem would be solved.
Faction sympathy isn't worthless.
It takes fucking ages to swap factions as it is now, and sometimes you even gotta change twice to get to the faction you want. call me factionhopper, but if i don't feel comfortable in the faction i am in, i swap, simple as that.
As a LE i suppose you will only be doing PvM, and seriusly, who needs to have a uber imp setup to be effective in PvM ? The cranial slot is a small price to pay.
No OP abilities ? well of course, if you'r not going to fight for them, why the hell should you own OPs then ?
And you can keep the LE in as long as you want, for all i've heard, as long as you don't rip it out.
JackScratch
09-04-04, 21:43
Did someone change the rules to (if you validate drawbacks, they aren't drawbacks)? I hate random/faction PKers, and when I say hate, I mean a strong emotion that causes me to actualy desire their IRL death. They are inconsiderate pricks who have no place in this game. Now the PKers always say "put your LE in", as stated that is bullshit for the listed reasons. Why should an inconsiderate prick get more of a game than me? or anyone else for that matter? Let me answer, they shouldn't. In truth I don't believe an LE or anything else should even be necesary, but if that is the only way, then I want a much much better solution. Fact is, PvP and Random/Faction PKing aren't even related, why should a player have to opt out of 1 because of the other. That is stupid, just plain stupid. Valid PvP involving valid inter player motives and interactions is fun and very acceptable. Random/Faction Ganking is not.
Faction sympathy isn't worthless.
It takes fucking ages to swap factions as it is now, and sometimes you even gotta change twice to get to the faction you want. call me factionhopper, but if i don't feel comfortable in the faction i am in, i swap, simple as that.
As a LE i suppose you will only be doing PvM, and seriusly, who needs to have a uber imp setup to be effective in PvM ? The cranial slot is a small price to pay.
No OP abilities ? well of course, if you'r not going to fight for them, why the hell should you own OPs then ?
And you can keep the LE in as long as you want, for all i've heard, as long as you don't rip it out.
Jack, this game is supposed to be representative of a post-apocalyptic civilisation. There are millions of assholes in the world as it is, imagine how many more there would be if there were less repercussions to one's actions? I still don't really see where you stand in this game TBH. I play as what you call a faction PKer, though mainly in the sense that those enemies I don't kill will likely kill me or my clan mates. I don't kill newbs unless they give me a reason too (e.g. hai sickar u r a cok = one dead newb). And I don't usually open fire first on an enemy, I wait to see what their reaction is. But most of all I enjoy RPing. I like having a reason behind my actions. As an example, my clan were out at Battle Dome not so long ago. A BD rifle PE started sniping us, stealthing when someone came near. Eventually I took him down. I called a hacker over to get his belt, and a random ProtoPharm runner took it instead. She did nothing to help us take down this criminal, and then takes his armor from the belt? I told her this was crucial evidence against the runner's clan, and she refused to co-operate. Hence, she died.
I'm now the asisstant to Josh Dabbs, the CA FC on Saturn. I try to RP whenever possible, and in general add more atmosphere to the game.
However, you don't seem to be much into RP either. You're very much against RPKing, as am I, though I see it as something that people will always do, and like Sleawer, I think it would be best to label those people as such, but still accomodate them (as the OZ JailHouse does), mainly because they give the game more purpose. I have a reason to kill these people, and it gives me something to do when I play. There is always the chance that someone might appear and attack me and whoever I am with, and this is all part of the atmosphere of this game. Without that factor I think things would be pretty dull. Immersion is one of the things developers strive to achieve in a game, and this doesn't depend so much on realism, as much as making something believable. A world where to attack someone else requires their permission is not very believable.
That is also the reason why I don't really like the LE. As I said earlier, there are ways to protect yourself without using the LE, just most of them require a little effort and common sense. I don't see any reason why concessions should be made because people are stupid, lazy, or ignorant. The key thing is, the LE destroys most of that atmosphere. As a newb, I was often attacked and killed by Starkes and the rest of HATE. But I recognised that it was part of the game. I also noticed that when I saw Starkes in the local area, my pulse rate immediately shot up, and I started finding a way out. I would hear his Liberator firing and genuinely fear it, and run for my digital life. Those moments were actually some of the most exciting moments I have ever experienced in a game. They were followed by grouping up, and hunting down the HATE members. And I enjoyed doing it. HATE enjoyed getting people stirred up and being hunted, we enjoyed initally trying to fight them off and then hunting them down when we got enough people together.
The thing is, you seem to be aimed at completely removing this kind of player from the game. If there is nobody around who will attack someone on sight, then there is nobody for your clan to put on KoS, and thus, few fights outside of duels and the occasional amicable OP war. Is this really where you stand?
Screw the LE, the LE is worthless and so is faction sympathy. I might, might would accept the LE as an option if it didn't take up a slot, weren't restricted at higher levels, didn't pre emt clan membership (I would even accept implimentation of LE clans, no OP abilities). But even with those Im certain there are problems I haven't considered. Those are simply the most obvious. If people would stop being inconciderate dicks, and hold everyone else to that standard as well, the problem would be solved.
to you maybe. to me the LE is a great tool helping me play my tank in low stress mode. Gives me a chance to see a little bit more of the world and not worry about having to cover my ass constantly. Don't get me wrong. I don't mind dieing. I'm just old and my heart can't take the constant 160 bpm every time I see somebody out in the wastes I don't know :D
And yes, random 'F6 ganking' or he said/she said/my alt said excuses for it need to be sorted out (punishment needs to fit the crime) but atm we gotta live with.
Besides, I play this game knowing full well the consequences of putting my non-LE'd runners in harms way (it always astonishes me when people complain about getting killed while dicking around in an unsafe location - duh, welcome to NC 8| ). For me red=dead is a completely valid mode of play (your choice). Why shouldn't enemy factions be able to kill the other guy regardless of rank? Why shouldn't you get spam killed because you keep repping back to the same genrep you got killed at? You wanna play Sir Anthony, the honorable Knight of the Round Table go ahead. Just don't think everybody else should.
I do agree with you however - it would be nice to have LE clans (or at least cabals/teams/circles/parliments whatever) that would allow a shared apartment but not allow you into the OP scene, etc.
I hate random/faction PKers, and when I say hate, I mean a strong emotion that causes me to actualy desire their IRL death.
seriously dude. if this game is causing you this much stress maybe its time to take a break. This is not a flame - it sounds like you're about to pop a gasket :(
Fact is, PvP and Random/Faction PKing aren't even related, why should a player have to opt out of 1 because of the other. That is stupid, just plain stupid.
when has NF ever not been an option for LE's users to participate in PvP? an LE runner gets to hunt in peace and if he/she chooses to mix it up a bit, get some buds together and duke it out for as long as they want to!
JackScratch
09-04-04, 22:03
Wow Scikar, a perfect tour of every one of the traditional lame excuses. "someone has to be evil or good wouldn't have anything to do." way to go, validate them, there is a lot more to this game than a game, there are liveing people at the other end of every runner, just because you can't see them doesn't mean you cant effect them. A very important part of this game is the effect it has on the real life experiences of the people playing it. We are the sum total of our experiences, experienceing random/faction PKing teaches a very very bad lesson to players. I refuse to allow this, if not for the game, then as a civic duty.
To be honest, if you so much as speak to your victims, offer them a way out of the ganking, then you are not who I am talking about when I say Random/Faction Ganking. If you gank those who have slighted you in the past, you have the bare minimum motive that should be required.
The fact is, it is those who kill, just to kill, and maybe.... maybe use faction as an excuse, those are who I hunt, those are whom I fight. I could give a shiot less about post apoc hoo dy hoo, it's a fucking game, how bout a little sportsmanship?
OK, so let's assume every Random/Faction PKer who you hate is banned from the game on those grounds. Now what do you do?
OK, so let's assume every Random/Faction PKer who you hate is banned from the game on those grounds. Now what do you do?
start playing more? ;)
For what reason? There's nobody left to fight, you've got a bit of time to kill capping all your chars and equipping them with artifact versions of every rare weapon. Then what? Jack doesn't really RP much so RP and following the storyline can't be a main interest. Removing all the 'bad people' would surely turn the game into bascially a chat room with a duel plugin.
JackScratch
09-04-04, 23:06
My god Scikar, do you even read my posts? Who said a damn thing about baning anyone? I intend to guide the self respecting populace to grief/ostricise them out. And keep them out. What do we do then, well to start wit there is continued inforcement, new people coming in all the time, some will be dicks. Plus there are the valid PvP and no PvP oportunities in this game. If the only thing a runner can find to do is Random/Faction Gank, then they are not mentaly sound enough to play this game in the first place, let alone continue to exist in free society at all. My god, this is just getting silly.
"We are the sum total of our experiences" - JackScratch
:)
Well that's a nice thing to say, you're not the first person to say it tho.
More correct is that we are the sum of our experiences, influenced by three factors: Enviroment, Biologic Organism, Psychologic Quality (Culture, Group Experience, Personal Experience). Experiences are unique for each individual, unrepeatable, and not just added to the previous, but integrated with them.
To Scikar and me the 'Starkes experience' was lived not all throught hate, but in a mix of fear and respect, while at the same time we recognized the factor fun of it. Perhaps if I had been CA instead TG the experience would have been very different, but you cannot assume that the criminal factor (ingame) is a bad experience.
Every society has and needs diverted members, behaviours, and not necessarily to damage the society, because sometimes this results in innovation and progress. You cannot be that radical, and I don't have doubts at this respect, half of your problem with these players would be relieved by just accepting the fact that we NEED them.
I know it is not easy to understand, but believe me, the perfect world by definition does not exist, and should not exist. I dislike certain behaviours ingame, but I'm not going to blame the player behind the avatar. You can't realistically know that person's personality to judge him, however you know the system and its flaws.
Of course we need some sort of code and rules to govern our behaviours, and that is what we should try to improve towards the balance.
I agree that newb ganking is lame in most situations, yet I don't expect everyone to follow a moralistic code, or impose it by force. I do expect however a system that labels them for what they are accordingly to their actions, so they willingly assume their role and pay the expected price for it.
JackScratch
09-04-04, 23:31
If these are truely your beliefs then you deserve the world you live in. Sorry, many of us believe there is much room for improvement, and here is one of the many battle fields it will be fought on. You are the kind to say just roll over and take it. That is very sad for you, I fight for what I believe in, and I think before I believe. If the person behind the Avatar isn't responsable for it's actions then who, precisely is? You are makeing excuseins for not rocking the boat and it is pathetic. What you enjoy, or anyone else for that matter isn't in question, wher rights are concerned it never is. The question is, how does what you like do effect other people. If the answer is a violation of their rights, Aka, what they enjoy, then you enjoyment has exceded its allowable cost, and is there for unacceptable. In the confines of this game, there is supposed to be violence, I can easily accept that, however killing without a strong motive is a very one sided addition to the enjoyment of those involved. No one should ever be killed PvP in this game, without first being allowed a viable option to remove themselves from the situation. Why? Because there are many other things to do in this game, a runner should be able to enjoy NC for the rest of their lives and never actualy enter PvP combat if they so desire.
No, the real problem here is lasieness, Gankers are too damn lasy to actualy put effort and consideration into their actions. God forbid someone actualy learn some useful and honorable behavior in this game. Huh?
"We are the sum total of our experiences" - JackScratch
:)
Well that's a nice thing to say, you're not the first person to say it tho.
More correct is that we are the sum of our experiences, influenced by three factors: Enviroment, Biologic Organism, Psychologic Quality (Culture, Group Experience, Personal Experience). Experiences are unique for each individual, unrepeatable, and not just added to the previous, but integrated with them.
To Scikar and me the 'Starkes experience' was lived not all throught hate, but in a mix of fear and respect, while at the same time we recognized the factor fun of it. Perhaps if I had been CA instead TG the experience would have been very different, but you cannot assume that the criminal factor (ingame) is a bad experience.
Every society has and needs diverted members, behaviours, and not necessarily to damage the society, because sometimes this results in innovation and progress. You cannot be that radical, and I don't have doubts at this respect, half of your problem with these players would be relieved by just accepting the fact that we NEED them.
I know it is not easy to understand, but believe me, the perfect world by definition does not exist, and should not exist. I dislike certain behaviours ingame, but I'm not going to blame the player behind the avatar. You can't realistically know that person's personality to judge him, however you know the system and its flaws.
Of course we need some sort of code and rules to govern our behaviours, and that is what we should try to improve towards the balance.
I agree that newb ganking is lame in most situations, yet I don't expect everyone to follow a moralistic code, or impose it by force. I do expect however a system that labels them for what they are accordingly to their actions, so they willingly assume their role and pay the expected price for it.
My god Scikar, do you even read my posts? Who said a damn thing about baning anyone? I intend to guide the self respecting populace to grief/ostricise them out. And keep them out. What do we do then, well to start wit there is continued inforcement, new people coming in all the time, some will be dicks. Plus there are the valid PvP and no PvP oportunities in this game. If the only thing a runner can find to do is Random/Faction Gank, then they are not mentaly sound enough to play this game in the first place, let alone continue to exist in free society at all. My god, this is just getting silly.
It was a supposition, not a suggestion. Imagine for a second that those people all left the game as a result of what you did. What does that leave you? You greif the people you consider to be assholes as they join to maintain the population as you think it should be. OK, and in between killing these newbs (because assholes or not, they're still newbs) what else do you do? Define legitimate PvP. All I see by your definitions is PvP to which both parties agree. Duels, and amicable OP fights. Not exactly a dangerous or exciting world is it? You can get the exact same environment in other games, but not here, because frankly that's not what Neocron is about. This is an RPG after all, what RPG cuts out half the possible roles? This is a dark world with a city full of crime, yet there is no way to commit a crime, to murder someone, to do anything without the other person's prior consent?
You wish to control the entire player base in a manner no different to ******************'s desire to control the population of Germany, and then you say we're the ones being silly?
Of course that there is room for improvements, and if you read throught my posts you will always find them full of suggestions and real improvemets that gather, not my one sided point if view *hint*, but an objective and unique way to see things from different points. That is rol-taking, and persons unable to assume others' roles tend to be dogmatic and intransigent, thing that seems to be happening to you.
The fact is that no one is out of right by having diverted behaviours; even our real life world accepts them and acknowledges their existance, otherwise we would not have jails, re-insertion institutions, police, politics... we would not be humans, but machines. I told you it is not an easy thing to understand, people is born and die without understanding this fact.
The person behind the avatar is responsible of his actions inside game mechanics, you cannot make the person controling the avatar responsible for the situation obviously allowed ingame. Especially not when the system is so flawed that you cannot separate honest citizens from criminals in any way.
In an attempt to excuse your deep hatre, you call me and my views pathetic; but do you really know what is pathetic? it is wanting the dead of someone in real life because a game, is acting like the behaviours and actions in a game need to be treated with real life mechanics.
I have a suggestion for you JackScratch; try to understand the enviroment of the game in which you are playing. This game has its mechanics adapted to fit with its world and history, which is very different from real life. In the moment a person removes his LE, he is accepting the consequences of living in a ruthless world where you can die.
Forget this idea:
No one should ever be killed PvP in this game, without first being allowed a viable option to remove themselves from the situation. Why? Because there are many other things to do in this game, a runner should be able to enjoy NC for the rest of their lives and never actualy enter PvP combat if they so desire.
If that is your desire, never remove your LE chip. Otherwise accept the consequences for doing it.
I won't tell you how you have to assume your deaths, if you have to like them, or your ingame and in-character reaction to them. However I tell you to start accepting them if you really want to agree with the World of Neocron.
About your view of the 'real problem', I just can point where you are wrong. It is called Anomia, absence of laws, and it is exactly what we have in Neocron.
Actually Sle, that point is already in the game. It's just ever so slightly different.
The thing is, not to remove oneself after the situation arises, instead, use your head and don't put yourself in that situation to begin with. People go into Pepper park and get killed. And they wonder why? If you go to Sierra Leone do you complain when you get shot? If you go to Columbia, wander through the jungle and get kidnapped, can you really blame anyone else except yourself?
As I said earlier, if you don't want to get ganked, stay in safe zones. Hunt only in hunting zones. Avoid areas which are frequented by hostiles, e.g. MB Bunker. Level with a group of friends instead of always going around solo. That's a whole part of the game, stay alert and on your toes. Don't go to CRP if you're not friendly with the owning faction.
You cannot protect people from their own stupidity. When someone goes to MB Bunker for the 10th time after being killed there repeatedly in the same day, surely they must realise what they are letting themselves in for? If you cannot handle being killed by a complete stranger who has no reason to kill you other than he doesn't like the way you look, then this game is not for you. This is a MMORPG, they are at least fulfilling some kind of role. If you want to play a game with only legitimate PvP JackScratch, play UT or Quake. If you want to play a game with no PvP, go on a non-PvP server for another MMO. But if you can't handle being killed by a bloodthirsty gangster who just wants the satisfaction of seeing you crumple to the floor and drop a belt in the depths of Pepper Park, then don't play Neocron. The rest of us all learnt to live with it, and learnt that it is part of the game.
If you want to hunt these people down, fine, take that as your role within this world. But what gives you the right to dictate how someone else should play the game? They paid their money just like you, they at least deserve to have their role acknowledged. Rather than ostracise them, create a system which accomodates them, and plays the likes of RPKers off against the likes of you. If KK would only make a true criminal element to this game, everybody would be RPing.
Jake Cutter
10-04-04, 01:08
And you don't regard the drawbacks you listed, plus the loss of an imp slot as rediculous and un acceptable? Other than that Jake, and the fact that you are a damn dirty Faction/Random PKer, I like the cut of your jib. You seem quite rational, and have actualy given thought and consideration to your actions as well as the actions of others. 2 thumbs up and kudos to you. Now If I can just get you to change your last few evil ways.
I forgot about the brainslot loss...my mistake...I posted at 3AM my local time.
And I am aware of the ramifications of the LE. I am reminded of it every time my tradeskillers need materials from the clan apartment that they cannot access...
I should have also noted that when my character killed a fellow faction member, it was done in a completely valid roleplaying context. The particular character that was killed was fraternizing with members of an enemy faction...thus earning him one free genrep ride. It was not done out of malice, nor was it done randomly. His actions were observed and the decision was made. I will also mention that this incident was the only PK that I have done outside of an op war.
Jack, you make quite a bit of sense most of the time, and I appreciate your compliments.
Regards,
Jake Cutter
Guys this is turning into a political/moral debate and while interesting other than keeping this poll alive it won't accomplish anything.
Results of people interested in this subject indicate indicate folks are roughly split into 2 camps on the issue. Personnally i had hoped for more support to penalize players killing runners well below their level.
In a way im sort of relived though as many of the no votes seem to come from players that don't wish to restrict WHO they kill, rather than players that are actively in search for victims that are defenseless.
I agree Sci, and it is necessary to accept these facts.
I don't disagree completely with JS however, I see a problem with the current system in Neocron, and I suggest things that from my point of view might help to improve the current gameplay for 'everyone'.
At the moment in the game I don't think that people fully accept their SL status, most even see it as an annoyance that should not exist. The fact is that we have some cool features to separate crimes from faction aligments, but these are either unused or exploited.
In example, the SL system could be great to work out the criminal role, to make sure that crimes have at least some sort of consequences. We expect criminals to die by cops, be hunted by other capped players, banned from the cities, etc... however we can't do this if the system intended for them is not reallisticaly viable (a.k.a. Soullight). Then we have players who find work arounds to avoid the broken system, and we then not only cannot separate criminals from the rest, but also have to live with them when it is obvious that ones don't like each others.
All our actions are based in a previous calculation of the costs versus benefits that we get from them, people's interactions are based around this, hence when we stablish a relation, have certain behaviours or actions, we have expected consequences. With the current broken system red SL is not really viable, as the rewards that a criminal could see to take that path are non existant.
We could almost say that it would be a perfect system in our world, crime would not exist because the costs would overcome the benefits. Well it would be a chaos. Neocron reflects it quite well, players that inherently choose the crime path find that the resources avaible to achieve their goals do not satisfy them, these are not balanced, thus like all humans do, they work it out their own way... and this is the truly representation of the crime, the diverted behaviours. And the Anomia theory. What an irony eh?
So with a more permisive system, criminals would accept the consequences of their behaviours, and therefore auto-balancing themselves. We can only expect a system where everyone gets a balanced benefit vs cost sale. Otherwise people will try to find a way to get over it by themselves... and believe me, we always do it. That's what I mean with red SL players paying the expected price.
In my opinion, before all this mess, the green SL system was not balanced either. On the same way that red SL players were encouraged due the loot, green SL players should have been encouraged to hunt them. Let's say that a criminal has an easy way to find its prey, so it would be fair to make this even for green SL players. NCPD list. We should not go back completely to the previous system either. SL still needs to be unavoidable and hard to recover; and indeed needs to be something that changes your life style drastically.
At last, I don't discuss the honourable meaning behind JS words (even when I dislike his statements of RL deaths); however that is not realistically possible, and definetely would not fit at all with the world of Neocron.
I voted no, I don't want the game mechanics to penalize ganking and the griefers would just find new ways to cause the grief. They are here and you have to accept them as being part of the game and either do something about them (yourself, a lot of suggestions on the how have already been made), or put them on ignore and move on.
I don't randomly PK people... I am not the "red = dead" type but there are certain factions that are extremely hostile towards me that I almost always fire upon because more than likely they will do the same to me. In hunting areas I try and come to an agreement with them and give them the benefit f the doubt and have actually hunted in the same area as hostile factions without any problem. Usually if they see me and say "hello" or some other form of greeting I won't shoot and will listen to what they say.
I have killed lower rank hostile faction runners but usually it is a knee jerk reaction and I don't see what the rank is before I attack (I usually play on my spy so I am at a distance more times than not) but as soon as I realize they are a low level rank I give them a DM and ask if they are new. If they answer yes I try my best to explain the political situation on the server and who that particular faction might be at war with. I then usually ask if they have any questions or need any money for the retrieval of their backpack.
Just because this is how I act I don't expect everyone to act like this, people have there own idea of fun and how they want to play the game which adds flavor to the virtual world. I don't like fighting allied factoins and really wish the game had more direction at times but I will learn to accept it... or just move*shrug*.
Devils Grace
10-04-04, 04:48
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JackScratch
10-04-04, 05:17
Scikar, you see nothing, the fact is, I only rule out ganking those you have given no option but to be ganked. Those you have given no alternative. What does that leave? Well, lets see, that would be any other PvP that coul;d posibly exist in the entire damn game. You don't have to be friendly, you can piss people off, you can threaten people, I realy don't care. What you can't do, is stroll out into the waste and randomly gank, based on faction or no reason at all. That's it, that is all that is ruled out, nothing else (well, location isn't exactly the point but you should get the idea). All I require is that you have an actual grievance with each and every runner you gank, I don't care if you make it up, but you have to let them know, and you have to offer them a practical way out. Now if you are too unimaginative (wich based on what you have described as your habits, you are not) to use that, then that is your problem, you will be reped with the rest. The demands I have made are not unrealistic, nor are they unfair. At the very least they are no less fair than the victims of the people I fight.
Me, outside a safe zone? it's a distinct posibiltiy. But you see, you fool, it isn't me you should be worried about. I do most of my work here and on the chats in game. I know gankers want to be hunted, I do not give them the satisfaction. My war is one of atrition. Catch me if you can, you will not be the first to PK me, nor the last. Wont it be funny if somehow the shoe is on the other foot though?
Well, I'm glad that's settled then. Now will you please stop going back to this argument all the time? By all means, start your own thread, but whenever a thread turns on to the discussion of SL and criminals, you bring this topic up again, and the original topic is lost. I would very much like to see Sleawer's ideas on SL incorporated into the game, but whenever we come around to discussing them here you change the topic back to PKers again. So can we have a promise to start your own thread next time? :)
JackScratch
10-04-04, 05:30
Pardon me? What exactly do you think the topic was? How can I debate why I disagree with the poll if I can't analyse the entire environment discussed. How is what we are discussing (short of pathetic Idle threats) not apropriot to the topic being discussed? I even answered your damn question, which you didn't seem to care about in the first place. Scikar, based on what you have said, you are not the enemy, why do you argue like you are?
Wont it be funny if somehow the shoe is on the other foot though?You have no idea. I get RPKed all the time, even by allies. I don't give a shit. I self poke, so all I get is a few minutes of leisure time. Word. If I see you in an unsafe zone, you are dead.
JackScratch
10-04-04, 05:49
Im pretty certain that if I understand the rules correctly Glok, what you are doing can get you at the very least a temporary ban from the forums.
Pardon me? What exactly do you think the topic was? How can I debate why I disagree with the poll if I can't analyse the entire environment discussed. How is what we are discussing (short of pathetic Idle threats) not apropriot to the topic being discussed? I even answered your damn question, which you didn't seem to care about in the first place. Scikar, based on what you have said, you are not the enemy, why do you argue like you are?
No, I'm fairly happy now. My point is, apart from in the thread which was turned into a discussion about gunpowder, you only ever post on this one issue, and you always make your statement about Random/Faction PKers. And then we get this debate all over again, with the original subject being left way behind. In this case, the idea didn't work to begin with and the thread would otherwise be dead, so fair enough, but in others, it does tend to go on something of a tangent once we go back to the PKer debate and lose sight of everything else.
While I cannot comment on the hostility level of this thread, Jack is unfortunately right...Glok, you are bordering very much on harassment. I suggest you throw it and keep it ingame before you get topics closed and yourself banned. I don't want to see people lose their place even if they want to beat the living daylights of someone. :p
JackScratch
10-04-04, 06:55
The finality of the statement that this is all I ever post about is exagerated, but I get your point. However, I only ever post about it in related threads. Its's a message Im trying to get across and I feel it truly applies here. In this case this person presented a solution to the ganking problem which not only do I disagree with, but I also feel is better served by the solution I "preach" about. Thus the relavence. I will argue vehimantly on any subject I feel strongly about, and I rarely fight when I am not positive I am right.
No, I'm fairly happy now. My point is, apart from in the thread which was turned into a discussion about gunpowder, you only ever post on this one issue, and you always make your statement about Random/Faction PKers. And then we get this debate all over again, with the original subject being left way behind. In this case, the idea didn't work to begin with and the thread would otherwise be dead, so fair enough, but in others, it does tend to go on something of a tangent once we go back to the PKer debate and lose sight of everything else.
How is putting him on ingame KoS harrassment?
JackScratch
10-04-04, 06:58
Do the ever familiar words "keep it in game" sound familiar? Not to mention that you are attacking me rather than my thoughts and ideas, which I believe is the very definition of harrassment. Add to that that you have crossed this arguement to a thread that has nothing what so ever to do with it, and I am honestly surprised you haven't been baned temporarily already. Im thinking the mods must be asleep.
I don't want to cut off someones viewpoint in this thread but if you guys continue to attack each other i will pm a mod to close this. The debate for and against the poll subject untill the last 2 or so pages was interesting and enlightening but this is getting ugly now.
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