View Full Version : Health dependant stealth
Here's an idea that came out of the PE stealth thread.
Basically, there isn't a problem with using stealth in order to be stealthy, and spy. The problem is when it is used as an invulnerability shield, or as a tool to get out of a fight.
Suppose a PE picks a fight with a random tank. He jumps the tank from behind. The tank turns and fights (he can't stealth away remember so he has no choice :p) and the PE, being only a fairly average PE who picked on a very good tank, finds himself losing. He has 50 HP left, so he pulls out his stealth tool, and runs away. The tank hits him with his freezer cannon as he runs, but the PE pops an antishock drug while stealthed and runs off.
This is where stealth becomes wrong, and this is where most people tend to feel PEs shouldn't have stealth. It's fine as a tool or a toy, but it's not fine as a key defence, or a get-away-from-the-fight-cos-I'm-about-to-die card.
So, here's a solution:
Add a health %age requirement to stealth:
Stealth 1 requires that you have 75% HP or more.
Stealth 2 requires 50% or more.
Stealth 3 requires 25%.
Obliterator can be used regardless of HP.
The benefits:
It's still a cool tool and PEs can still use it.
Spies aren't gimped by the changes and it provides more reason to use Oblit.
It can't be used for PEs to run away when they change their mind and think they might lose a fight, however if they see a group of attackers heading their way they can still use stealth to run away before the fight starts.
So that's what I think, I reckon it will stop the whining about PE stealth (I certainly will stop :p) without seriously nerfing stealth or taking it away from PEs. It will also not hurt spies.
I vote no, that doesnt mean I'm againist any change to stealth I just dont see why it should be health depandant, I'd also like to point otu this would hurt Spies more than PE and cause stealth whores to stealth even more to avoid any health lose.
i vote no to, it has a good meaning to it but its meant to nerf PE's, and it wud just completely fuck up spies, i basically use stealth on my spy for s get away tool, because u know spies defense is shite, and i will die most the time, and if i get attacked ecspecially i can use stealth to escape, but i wont pick a fight on anyone if i know im gonna end up needing it, cos then its just stupid :p
and another thing, less HP more stealth time? o_O
yes!
very good idea ;)
this should stop the abuse of stealth
/€
LOL guys did you even read his post ?!
obliberator has NO hlt req and stealth 3 is 25 %...
this wont hurt spies at all
wtf is your problem ?
Psyco Groupie
22-03-04, 20:26
only if theres a ppu with 50 apu in the same zone :lol:
i still vote for blood trail when below 25 % of hlt.
i FULLY support any notion to turn stealth into a tool to SPY ON PEOPLE instead of a tool to RUN AWAY BECAUSE THE GUY YOU'RE FIGHTING IS BETTER THEN YOU :rolleyes:
Clownst0pper
22-03-04, 20:45
LOL zoneseek, what if the guy your fighting is 10 guys vs you.
Thats fair..Even you and you skill arent that hard! :lol:
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
LOL zoneseek, what if the guy your fighting is 10 guys vs you.
Thats fair..Even you and you skill arent that hard! :lol:
We all found a way to deal with it before stealth. Antishock drugs, runcast heal and good movement to make yourself hard to hit while you run your ass to a GR actually takes some skill. Hitting stealth and being on your way doesn't. :\
Clownst0pper
22-03-04, 20:48
We all found a way to deal with it before stealth. Antishock drugs, runcast heal and good movement to make yourself hard to hit while you run your ass to a GR actually takes some skill. Hitting stealth and being on your way doesn't. :\
I used to love the days where me, blade, syreus and andy had no PA, no stealth, just 100% skill vs the other classes and factions.
I honestly believe PE pa should be removed, and so should stealth for PE's.
Give them something else. Lets have it like it used to be :angel:
HatchetRyda
22-03-04, 20:48
What happens if the Tank attacks us for no reason. We should not be able to stealth away? Thats sad.. You must be a tank getting PKed to much :)
Shadow Dancer
22-03-04, 20:49
I like the idea. Vote yes.
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
LOL zoneseek, what if the guy your fighting is 10 guys vs you.
Thats fair..Even you and you skill arent that hard! :lol:
If you get hit up by 10 guys you should die. Thats the way all games should be sometimes your gonna die dont matter how good you are.
Originally posted by .Cyl0n
yes!
very good idea ;)
this should stop the abuse of stealth
/€
LOL guys did you even read his post ?!
obliberator has NO hlt req and stealth 3 is 25 %...
this wont hurt spies at all
wtf is your problem ?
I voted no. I know a lot of spys that use stealth 1 and stealth 2 because the others last too long or they are still leveling.
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
I used to love the days where me, blade, syreus and andy had no PA, no stealth, just 100% skill vs the other classes and factions.
I honestly believe PE pa should be removed, and so should stealth for PE's.
Give them something else. Lets have it like it used to be :angel:
Dunno about that, the only real GOOD pe setups without PA is lowtech or maybe blacksun/epr hightech....with pa and sa it opens the pe class to a fwe other prime weapons like the rog and judge without totally gimping ur defenses.
Originally posted by KimmyG
If you get hit up by 10 guys you should die. Thats the way all games should be sometimes your gonna die dont matter how good you are.
What he said. If the people hate you enough to send 10 players out to get you, you should die...its part of the game. There shouldn't be a free ticket outta there.
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
LOL zoneseek, what if the guy your fighting is 10 guys vs you.
Thats fair..Even you and you skill arent that hard! :lol:
So you stealth before they get to you instead of when you have 30HP...
Clownst0pper
22-03-04, 21:15
So you stealth before they get to you instead of when you have 30HP...
You wont find me stealthing MR!!
Talk to fawkes, the only remaining PE on saturn who doesnt use PA or hightech!
Fawkes > All :D
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
You wont find me stealthing MR!!
Talk to fawkes, the only remaining PE on saturn who doesnt use PA or hightech!
Fawkes > All :D
Thats funny, I could have sworn me and eledhbrant both have lowtech titan-armor PE's :D
And just because you are hightech doesn't mean you have to stealth, I personally comdemn in on my hightech PE.
I definitely voted yes and I think most voting no are being selfish with no interest in the biggest picture. (Most). BUT, Muerko does have a good point that this could cause even worse stealth whoring. Most spies I fight now stealth if you get in 100 meters of em, itd be worse with the health dependancy. That being said my yes vote is a reluctant one. :p
Well I'd say shooting once then stealthing isn't a problem compared to fight to 30HP, stealth, heal, come back, repeat until the clearly better opponent gets hit by a mob to give you enough of an advantage to kill him. ;)
Originally posted by Jest
I definitely voted yes and I think most voting no are being selfish with no interest in the biggest picture. (Most). BUT, Muerko does have a good point that this could cause even worse stealth whoring. Most spies I fight now stealth if you get in 100 meters of em, itd be worse with the health dependancy. That being said my yes vote is a reluctant one. :p That is not even a big problem.
The problem is people stealthing away once hurt, to heal and come back to fight again. That is what people dont like. And this would 100% avoid that.
Clownst0pper
22-03-04, 21:38
And just because you are hightech doesn't mean you have to stealth, I personally comdemn in on my hightech PE.
Sure, Totally agree, Ikari is Hightech and doesnt use stealth.
I have used it, and 2 much sometimes but, I dont any more! I have been reborn! :D
Originally posted by Strych9
That is not even a big problem.
The problem is people stealthing away once hurt, to heal and come back to fight again. That is what people dont like. And this would 100% avoid that. Which is why I voted yes. :p
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
Sure, Totally agree, Ikari is Hightech and doesnt use stealth.
I have used it, and 2 much sometimes but, I dont any more! I have been reborn! :D
lol :p
i dont mind stealth when its used in moderation but its unbelievable how much it gets used....in some op fights *cough* citymercs *cough* ill see PE's shooting at tanks, the SECOND the tank turns onto the PE he stealths...full hp and buffed.
what gives? so lame...
Definitely the best stealth idea so far.
Voted yes and 5 stars.
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
Sure, Totally agree, Ikari is Hightech and doesnt use stealth
lol ok now the truth.....
and yep this is a good idea stops nibs thinking there l33t cos they can stealth away from a battle if it doesnt go there way
Stealth can be used for other things aswell then to escape with like low hp ? o_O . For example wiht a pistol spy why would u have to run like 10m in front of the enemie before u can attack (and no stealth means ur noticed very fast and u cant come close liek u should be able to wiht that idea? , and if thats a apu....)
Seems cool idea in at first , but if i think about the others thing it brings hell no....:/ Voted no.
Originally posted by Sefran
Stealth can be used for other things aswell then to escape with like low hp ? o_O . For example wiht a pistol spy why would u have to run like 10m in front of the enemie before u can attack (and no stealth means ur noticed very fast and u cant come close liek u should be able to wiht that idea? , and if thats a apu....)
Seems cool idea in at first , but if i think about the others thing it brings hell no....:/ Voted no. If you're a pistol spy who runs in to fight a tank at close range without stealth, YOU DESERVE TO DIE. What this thread is about is making stealth a TACTICAL tool. Not a get-out-of-jail-free card when you only have 30 HP left so you can run away and heal up.
That being said, I gave this a big YES.
@ZoneseeK: I'm also a lowtech PE. Even more shocking is that I use rifles as well, even though pistols are "easier." 8| :p
--Stryfe
Clownst0pper
22-03-04, 22:49
I dont any more! I have been reborn!
Read my threads l3mon, dont take them out of context.
Originally posted by Sefran
Stealth can be used for other things aswell then to escape with like low hp ? o_O . For example wiht a pistol spy why would u have to run like 10m in front of the enemie before u can attack (and no stealth means ur noticed very fast and u cant come close liek u should be able to wiht that idea? , and if thats a apu....)
Seems cool idea in at first , but if i think about the others thing it brings hell no....:/ Voted no.
You can still stealth to run up to them. Please read the post again. A pistol spy would easily be able to stealth and then ambush people - that's an intended use of it. The spy would have 100% HP before he attacked, and he would probably have stealth 3 or Oblit anyway so the HP wouldn't be a problem.
Hm i think i get the point now yeah, yeah seems a good idea. But then again that would screw scouting so wiht that idea i would like some kinda stealth scouting tool (spy only, and wich doesnt involve any HP but not insane TC anyway imo a spy only needs spy2 ) that lasts like 2 min but after each use of that u cant take a weapon for some period of time to make it balanced.
Sef, Obliterator is exactly the same. Stealth 3 is exactly the same, except you can't use it when you drop below 25% HP. How would it stop scouting?
I don't think you can make something dependant on health until the issues with health bouncing up and down are resolved. Otherwise you'll just hear complaining from the community that they couldn't stealth even though their health was high enough.
My question about leveling spies still hasn't been addressed. Why penalize spies that want to use Stealth 1 or stealth 2? Should there be a set of Spy only (no health requirement) and a set of PE only (with health requirement) stealth tools like their are separate PAs for each class?
Er.. what difference does it make to a levelling spy? He's not going to be in PvP anyway if he's levelling, and if he's using it against mobs then they ignore stealth anyway once they have aggro. If no mobs have aggro then there's nothing stopping him from healing up.
The bouncy health issues could be a small problem. But at 75% the idea is that you don't get shot at all before you stealth, and if you do stealth you do it as you get hit the first time. Also the bouncy health issues affect everyone, crippling your legs when they shouldn't be etc. so it would just add more support to the campaign to fix it.
My perspective is from that of Op fights, since i dont do miscellaneous PKing ...
Ditching out using stealth when at ultra low health is essentially no different from you tanks bailing out back into the UG to get heals and another round of Shelter/Deflector (or to wherever your PPUs are stationed). Both approaches keep a fighter alive to go back and try again. So i voted No.
This is another one-sided bias against stealth users. Yes i know, you are trying to deal with a perceived problem with PEs, and i sympathize to some degree, but at the same time this also hurts Spys, even though you claim it doesnt. I use my stealth tool the way other people use the UG/heals/buffs ... meaning i bail when i really have to in order to not die and hopefully continue contributing to the fight ... which means i am usually just about dead and your change would mean i couldnt stealth at all. So why should i be further disadvantaged by your suggested change and you not be? To make it fair, you folks would need similar major penalties on getting / not getting rebuffed during fights.
Spook
Seems like a good idea, but I see two problems so far:
1- Health update. This is fucked since #157 (and #163 - #164). I absolutely HATE this health update bug, and completely disagree with KK's way to fix it - server side death.
Solution. KK fix this goddamnit, this is the first game I see with such stupid bug.
2- Stealth durations. Most of us stealthers preffer to use lower versions of stealth, as it gives us more manoeuvrability to break locks, counter-strike fast, assist allies asap... you cannot predict your ammount of health in these situations, so it would end hurting spies with the current system.
Solution: allow us to break stealth at will. And no stealth-breakers suck, it was fun at the beginning but I already use two drugs on my spy, don't need more drug-flash :(
With these solutions I'd agree with the idea.
Clownst0pper
22-03-04, 23:30
This is another one-sided bias against stealth users. Yes i know, you are trying to deal with a perceived problem with PEs, and i sympathize to some degree, but at the same time this also hurts Spys, even though you claim it doesnt. I use my stealth tool the way other people use the UG/heals/buffs ... meaning i bail when i really have to in order to not die and hopefully continue contributing to the fight. So why should i be further disadvantaged by your suggested change and you not be? To make it fair, you folks would need similar major penalties on getting / not getting rebuffed during fights.
Good words spook, totally agree
Yea Spook I see your point, and agree with it. Now all fights are like Peeper Park :( If we don't stealth, they go back to UG, or run to guards... it sucks.
Originally posted by Scikar
Er.. what difference does it make to a levelling spy? He's not going to be in PvP anyway if he's levelling, and if he's using it against mobs then they ignore stealth anyway once they have aggro. If no mobs have aggro then there's nothing stopping him from healing up.
Contrary to popular belief, some leveling spies actually participate in PvP and Op wars to support their clans.
Make stealthed players always targettable but with aiming penalty (maybe reduced damage for monks or chance of failing casts, monks screw up this idea a bit). It would make stealth used mostly to get close to target or stalk people, not for getting godmode to run away. At least this change would make stealth less useful when trying to ran away from the target because target could hurt you no matter what weapon he/she happens to be using.
Here is an alternate idea ...
Create a new tool called a Chameleon Circuit. When activated it blends the wearer into the background so that [s]he is no longer distinquishable from anything else. In practice, it works just like a Stealth Tool, but is PE only; in fact the visual effect can be the same as a stealth tool so the programmers and effects artists dont have to do any new work. Next, existing Stealth Tools are made to be Spy only. Then KK can proceed to modify the Chameleon Circuit to resolve the so called PE problem without nerfing stealth for Spies.
The whole idea here being to suggest a least-work change to create a PE-only stealth tool that can be modified without nerfing stealth for Spies. Given its difference in name, and the differing rationale for how it functionally operates (camouflage instead of invisibility), it can be tweaked in any direction to solve the problem - and also have a logical reason for why its capabilities differ from regular stealthing.
Spook
P.S. in real life Chameleons are a form of lizard that can change their skin pattern and coloration to blend into the background as a defensive measure to hide from predators.
I want to insist again in giving spies a tool to uncover concealed targets. I'd love to stealth with my spy and see my enemy using some sort of pulse generator that uncovers me :)
To do likewise myself of course hehe.
i just think this effects spies more then PE's in the long run, and wtf i am NOT using obliterator, to long, and its a complete waste of tech skill, i only use stealth 2 on my spy, so why should i be gimped because of PE's abusing it even tho they have great defense
awkward silence
23-03-04, 22:53
i voted no... sorry im a bit unfair but i really love my pe.
But... i think it would be fair if this idea made it.
good and fair idea for pe's but not for spies
Originally posted by awkward silence
i voted no... sorry im a bit unfair but i really love my pe.
But... i think it would be fair if this idea made it.
good and fair idea for pe's but not for spies So make 2 lines of stealth tools, one with a Spy class requirement and no health requirement, and one with a PE class requirement and the health requirements listed by the thread starter.
--Stryfe
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.