View Full Version : Hey KK...sign-up for client/server programming 101 please.
Whenever a player logs on, the f***ing server should require a reply from the client that the player has actually logged on successfully before it sends your character info to any other clients in your zone!!! How many f***ing times do people have to watch their characters get killed while they themselves are completely helpless and immobile in a mother f***ing ===SYNCHRONIZING=== screen?
I can accept dieing to superior skill or even to the occasional internet lag, but dieing to sloppy programming--time and again--is getting old.
Ray
100% behind you on that ray.
KK would try but then people would end up logging in invisible to everyone else and a new horror of bugs would come out.
Whitestuff
22-03-04, 07:21
I think that if they reworked some of the netcode, it would solve A LOT of problems. From what I have read in the callstacks and ppls experiences, I'd say it is A root of evil (there are a few more in the game)
yeap i know exactly how this is...as lots of others do
start to zone into pepperpark -synchronizing- you jump up and down and turn around while staying in a sync, and on the other side everyones shooting at you...ive had this happen to me many times...and ive seen it happen to others...you can tell cuz they stand in the same spot jumping up and down and not pulling a weapon...just sitting there getting beat to hell:rolleyes:
but the syncin on start is a real problem. even if u relog as fast as you can its still around 15 seconds totally helpless with no garantie that it will work better next time.
i really love that problem when im crashing in a cave :)
Yeah! KK should do something about it .. or perhaps people should look better place to fight than zonehopperp3pp1-dome?
Seriously thou, if you zone too fast from prev. zone, it increases Death-o-Zync screen expotentially.
Originally posted by RayBob
Whenever a player logs on, the f***ing server should require a reply from the client that the player has actually logged on successfully before it sends your character info to any other clients in your zone!!! How many f***ing times do people have to watch their characters get killed while they themselves are completely helpless and immobile in a mother f***ing ===SYNCHRONIZING=== screen?
I can accept dieing to superior skill or even to the occasional internet lag, but dieing to sloppy programming--time and again--is getting old.
Ray
Ya its stupid. I wouldn't blame it on client/server programming in this case as much as I would blame it on KK refusing to open international servers, having all thier servers stuffed into a corner in germany. Just about everyone I know playing in North America gets the 0 money/synap bug about 33% of the time logging in. Its worse for some people then others, depends on the ISP. As for lagging through sync's, some people actually wait a good 10-15 seconds between ANY SYNC, and they are on broadband connections. I dunno how they accept that, I would have been gone in a week if I had to live with that shit.
Unacceptable tbh.
Mighty Max
22-03-04, 11:42
KK would try but then people would end up logging in invisible to everyone else and a new horror of bugs would come out.
And even when KK wouldnt do it 100% right, a bunch of players would surely jump on it and try to abuse / hack it.
Im very sure on that.
Originally posted by g0rt
Ya its stupid. I wouldn't blame it on client/server programming in this case as much as I would blame it on KK refusing to open international servers, having all thier servers stuffed into a corner in germany. Just about everyone I know playing in North America gets the 0 money/synap bug about 33% of the time logging in. Its worse for some people then others, depends on the ISP. As for lagging through sync's, some people actually wait a good 10-15 seconds between ANY SYNC, and they are on broadband connections. I dunno how they accept that, I would have been gone in a week if I had to live with that shit.
Unacceptable tbh. That's an excellent point. I am on the US West Coast, a full 9 time zones away from the servers. I never see less than 200 ping.
When I play other FPS games I wouldn't even dream of playing on a server with 200+ ping. I always play on 15-30 ping servers close to my location. If KK released a US server, I would immediately abandon my 70+ million credits, 17 MC5 implants, and dozens of high-slotted rares to get better performance. I am so tired of people warping all over the screen making aiming nearly impossible.
However, this doesn't begin to address the stability problem. No exaggeration, the last 3 out of 4 times I have died are due to FRE or synchronizing bugs. I really enjoy this game and am willing to accept the complete lack of high-end content and meaningless OP system, but the bugs in this game are really starting to wear me down. As a programmer myself, I cannot understand how they don't make stability their number one priority.
I fail to see it as a distance/lag problem - they are simply not using the proper handshaking protocols. RayBob is right - they need to revisit a level 101 class, actually study, and take serious notes. As with other parts of the game, it seems that novice (but bright) programmers did the design and programming ... the result being that even today some stuff is broken, some stuff is only partially implemented, and some stuff sort of works mostly.
Spook
P.S. i think they are focusing on DBoY instead of bugs because it is a do-or-die situation; my guess is if they dont get in more revenue soon they go belly-up, although the pressure may have eased off a bit because of their deal with whatsits. So i would rather live with the bugs a bit longer so they can ship BDoY, instead of them fixing some bugs but closing their doors because they didnt ship it soon enough.
Originally posted by MegaCorp
I fail to see it as a distance/lag problem
You can tech-talk about it all day long, data still moves through the wire just like a mouse would move through a sewer pipe....yes the data has to travel from point A to point B. Its a FACT that if your hops are perfect, you will get more latancy going from north america to europe then if you're going from north america to another place in north america.
The day the technology comes out to make it possible to have a 10ping between north america and europe, it will at the same time make it possible to have a 0.1 ping from north america to another spot nearby in north america.
Distance matters. Closer will always be faster.
Er ... my argument was not related to Ping per se. I totally agree that distance matters for Ping. And that latency grows worse over longer distances. That is fundamental. But it wasnt the focus of my own posting.
My point is that when properly designed and written, the client/server handshaking code, and the code that presents current status to other players, can be done in such a manner as to resolve RayBob's problem, irrespective of the overall latency inherent in the underlying communication system(s). To put it more simply, some bozo piece of code is telling everyone that his character is now there and ready to be shot at ... and it isnt ... it is still in synch ... the handshaking that occurs to bring him into reality hasnt fully finished yet. But something invoked the function that informs everyone else about his presence, when it should not have triggered yet. Probably a simple bug. Once he IS brought fully into the system, THEN his presence should be communicated; latency plays no part, it is merely a matter of correct serialization of functions. It could be nothing more than one line of code or a few lines of code out of place or miswritten.
Spook
Yeah, there's definitely something fucked about zoning or logging in, being able to see everything around you, everything around you being able to interact WITH you, but you can't do fuck all. That's some f-ed up netcode if you ask me.
However, on the subject of Ping, I honestly think NC does an ok job of letting 10 people PvP in a zone compared to any other FPS. Any other FPS, CS for example, has damn *simple* data to transmist between clients compared to an MMORPG where the players are unique in stats etc, unlike Terrorist or Counterterrorist with no stats, you just transmit weapon damage, type and locations. Throw in calculating the attackers skills and items and then carry that data over to the defenders skills and items, on top of everything else in the game.... blah blah blah, NC isn't so bad as far as ping-to-data efficiency goes imo.
As I see it, there are 3 issues here:
#1 FREs. Neocron crashes more often than any other game that I have ever played. In fact, more often than any other program I have ever used. I realize this is simply my personal experience, but I am sure I am not alone. There is a tedious process all developers go through to insure the stability of their product on a variety of systems and hardware configurations. The process at KK seems to be…”Hey MJ, is it crashing on your box? No? Cool, ship it.” If it was possible to rate all commercial software released in the last 10 years, I suspect Neocron would be in the bottom 10%. This is a programming issue and not a ping issue.
(I don't wish to be overly harsh on KK, but their unwillingness to ACKNOWLEDGE that the problem exists is what drives me crazy.)
#2
Originally posted by MegaCorp
...some bozo piece of code is telling everyone that his character is now there and ready to be shot at ... and it isn’t ... it is still in synch ... the handshaking that occurs to bring him into reality hasn’t fully finished yet. But something invoked the function that informs everyone else about his presence, when it should not have triggered yet. When you log in to the game, you have no money, items, skill levels, armor, etc. This information is stored on the servers and your client is forced to wait for it before it permits you to manipulate your character. Without requiring any confirmation of receipt from the client, the server sends your info to all other clients in the zone. They can see you, target you, and kill you before your client has received the information it needs from the server to complete the synchronization process. This is a programming issue and not a ping issue.
#3
Originally posted by -FN-
...on the subject of Ping, I honestly think NC does an ok job of letting 10 people PvP in a zone compared to any other FPS...NC isn't so bad as far as ping-to-data efficiency goes imo.I tend to agree with you. When the game is not crashing it works well. The exception being that as the number of people in a zone grows, Neocron's performance decreases exponentially.
Unfortunately, this doesn’t address the problem of localized servers. Assume that the 10 people were all of equal skill and similarly equipped. One team consisted of 5 players with 20 ping and the other team had 5 players with 200 ping. All else being equal, who doesn’t think the 20 ping team would win more often? Why do you think that nearly every major game has servers located throughout the major markets? It is a fact that ping will affect your performance in any online game, more so in a FPS game.
Neocron is the product of a small company with limited resources. I understand why they have all their servers in one location. However, if they ever hope of having a major presence in the US market they are going to have to find a company to host an American server.
Originally posted by g0rt
.. Just about everyone I know playing in North America gets the 0 money/synap bug about 33% of the time logging in...
its not a "i live somewhere outside of europe bug". i live 5 hops away from the server and get that allmost everytime i get in.
Im not saying that NC isnt buggy or anything but whats with the
moronic titles people have to use for these threads. Do people
feel better if they get to bash KK and pretend that they are half-
wits and that half the people they know could do it better? Im so
tired of this ignorant attitude.
Originally posted by g0rt
Ya its stupid. I wouldn't blame it on client/server programming in this case as much as I would blame it on KK refusing to open international servers, .
dont matter much, ppl that live in germany get the same shit....
Im kinda close to germany(finland) i get a ping of 75 and I still get stuck in sync, alot.
Its the coding... and not the distance/hardware
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