View Full Version : A PPU solution.
Ok, first off. PPUs are a support class, their function is to make other players a bit tougher, and keep them alive. Neocron is a team game, KK even made changes in early retail to the classes and mobs to enforce this. So, every good team will have at least one PPU. ALL MMOs have support classes, and I dare say (*although I haven't played anything but Neocron) that they are important in those other games as well.
So, the problem with PPUs. What exactly is the problem? They are too hard to kill, or they are required for PvP or both? I think it is a combination of that. So, I propose something, and please, think about it for a second before you reply.
What if blessed/holy S/D was foreign cast only? Suddenly PPUs need protection from their team, or they have to buff each other to stay alive, and foreign buffs, if you remember, are now much weaker. Suddenly the PPU is a weak support class that must stay behind the lines.
Also, if this was the case, the PK teams with a PPU would be much easier to deal with if there was only the one PPU. Drop the PPU first, then drop the others. Of course, multi PPU PvP teams would still be almost as tough, but not as tough.
The debuffs can stay in, imo, but would probably be used against the players the PPU is supporting, rather than the PPU, since the best the PPU will have on him/her would be foreign cast buffs anyways.
Again, please think about this before you cry foul. It makes sense to me anyways to have the support class weak, but their effect on others strong. Do I dare post a poll? I think I do. :)
[edited] To add blessed s/d.
Psyco Groupie
22-03-04, 02:38
Turrets would kill a ppu in seconds.
APUs would kill ppus in seconds.
Tanks would kill ppus in seconds.
Spies would kill ppus in ten seconds.
wtf is so wrong with ppus ?
it seems like theres finally some nice balance and everyone starts screamign at ppus again ... well i got news for you people, MELEE tanks are the problem .. or atleast will be if you continue this relentless nerf the ppus campaign
*edit .. WOOT IVE CAPPED MY PPU NOW I CAN USE BLESSED BUFFS >> YIPPEEE .. no.
PPUs are too hard to kill? How about you go play a ppu or try and kill an average ppu they aren't that hard to kill. So before you post fucked up ideas make sure you know what you're talking about, k?
Richard Angelus
22-03-04, 02:43
there is only 1 prob with your solution.....
you can't stay 'behind the lines'.......everyone can attack you if he wants to (if you are near your team to support them)
It's not often I agree with Pete :p
I like the idea, but needs some tweaking.
If KK do this then..
APUs damage needs to be toned down significantly, perhaps some debuff role to compensate the damage loss.
PPUs given some kind of offence to complement with their support role.
The Team should have a way to effectively take damage out of the PPU... not sure how could this be coded.
PPUs are too hard to kill, but it's either this or KK eventually will give stupid antibuff weapons to all classes... which is worse :\
NS_CHROME54
22-03-04, 02:47
i think everyone should leave ppu's alone. they're pure support ffs. so you can't kill em, they can't kill you either. face it, even tl3 heal cast by a tank can outheal the highest amount of damage a ppu can do (holy parashock bolt, damage boosted). sooo, keep casting tl3 heal on yourself and you'll survive if a ppu ever decides to attack you (:rolleyes:). everyone says "N3RF T3H PPU'S!!!111oneoneone," but would these same people dare engage in an opfight without a ppu covering them. nope.
Psycho Killa
22-03-04, 02:49
Originally posted by NS_CHROME54
but would these same people dare engage in an opfight without a ppu covering them. nope.
Thats because they know its utterly hopeless to go to an opfight without a ppu since theyre are 110% to important.
No not "overpowered" "overimportant"
Well I play PPU and I'm not calling for them to be nerfed; I want them balanced. There's a big difference there. While HAB is in the game as the only way to kill PPUs they're just plain not balanced, and no fun to play at the same time. Getting rid of holy glue wouldn't be a bad move either :)
With KK putting so much effort into DoY it's probably all academic anyway.
I said think before you reply, people. PPUs would still have holy heal, and basic shelter/deflector plus monk armor = PE defenses. This would just make them less godlike.
Only PsychoKilla has any argument against my idea, they would still be over important.
Psyco Groupie
22-03-04, 02:57
support classes are their for support, hence the more support you get the more fights you win .. i enjoy my ppu immensely ... i couldnt careless how many anti buff techniques they add .. ppus are fun to play and why should they be any less important at an op fight than a hacker for example.
LEAVE PPUS ALONE.com
Originally posted by Glok
Only PsychoKilla has any argument against my idea, they would still be over important.
Try defining the problem before coming up with a solution :rolleyes: (Edit: oh you did, my bad. Well I totally disagree with your assessment of the problem :))
The problem with PPUs isn't that they are too hard to kill, so nerfing their defence is a complete non-starter. The problem (in my view anyway) is they are far too important in combat (due to holy glue and the strength of foreign cast buffs) and that they are plain no fun to play anymore.
Keyol45743241
22-03-04, 02:58
No not "overpowered" "overimportant"They are already both. If you'd implement that, just watch all the APUs lom to PPU again :rolleyes:
Nah, much simpler. Force a 10 to 20 second break between buffs. That gives you a pretty good chance to shitbuff your victim of choice - and 10 secs without shelter or whatever can kill a PPU.
Then you'd only have to deal with synclamers...... :rolleyes::(
Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
Turrets would kill a ppu in seconds.
APUs would kill ppus in seconds.
Tanks would kill ppus in seconds.
Spies would kill ppus in ten seconds.
Err explain to me how turrets will kill a PPU in seconds? My APU lasts at least 15 secs with an aggro'd 120% gattlin turret at point blank. That's not even counting in a PPU's holy heal. APU's? I doubt it, even APU's have a hard time out damaging holy heal. Tanks with a dev, sure, but they do that to everyone, even now.
Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
wtf is so wrong with ppus ?
PPU's VERY heavily determine the outcome of a fight (unless your clan is 100% PE's, and even then, their heal makes a HUGE difference. No character class should be that important
Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
it seems like theres finally some nice balance and everyone starts screamign at ppus again
I don't know what world you live on, but PPU's still aren’t balanced. They are less overpowered, but still overpowered. Just like the Dev.
Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
... well i got news for you people, MELEE tanks are the problem .. or atleast will be if you continue this relentless nerf the ppus campaign
Melee tanks are balanced atm imho. However, in the next patch I believe they will be overpowered
Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
*edit .. WOOT IVE CAPPED MY PPU NOW I CAN USE BLESSED BUFFS >> YIPPEEE .. no.
Err huh? The idea is to make holy/blessed buffs foreign cast, not make PPU's cast never holy buffs.
Fuck it. PsychoKilla put the problem very simply in Cannings' thread, PPUs are REQUIRED for PvP. I can't see any way to fix that if PPUs stay in the game.
I'm tired, I'm going to sleep. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Keyol45743241
Nah, much simpler. Force a 10 to 20 second break between buffs. That gives you a pretty good chance to shitbuff your victim of choice - and 10 secs without shelter or whatever can kill a PPU.
And watch as all the PPUs lom or re-roll, cos that solution would leave PPUing being as much fun as shaving your testicles with a potato peeler.
Originally posted by Glok
Fuck it. PsychoKilla put the problem very simply in Cannings' thread, PPUs are REQUIRED for PvP. I can't see any way to fix that if PPUs stay in the game.
I'm tired, I'm going to sleep. :rolleyes:
It's very simple to fix it. Ppus are too important becuase of the defenses they give others. Nerf that and they'll still be needed but won't have as great of an impact on the outcome of a fight.
Keyol45743241
22-03-04, 03:08
Originally posted by MrChumble
And watch as all the PPUs lom or re-roll, cos that solution would leave PPUing being as much fun as shaving your testicles with a potato peeler. Well, at least we got rid of the PPU plague and can continue to improve the game further. Great, innit? So, I assume you like the idea? :lol:
Even if the PPU got beat with the nerfbat, even if someone would stick them a nerfbat where the sun doesn't shine, even then a PPU would be the difference between similar teams winning and loosing. And that should be it. The tip to the scale. At the moment a PPU/whatever team can cope with huge amounts of unbuffed victims, especially in the cramped quarters of the PP with syncborders everywhere in case something would get tight.
You are right in saying other games have support classes, however, other games with support classes, also give them very nice offense as well as defence.
Lets go game by game.
Anarchy Online.
Top healing class is "Doctor", who can heal, but also can poison you, and hit you with so much crap, you die :p
2nd is Adventurer, who can turn into a Dragon, and "nuke" you for over 2k dmg, as well as having nice sheilds that damage you when you shoot the advy, as well as cocoon, which reduces dmg to 0 until you've hit the advy for x amount of points
Lowest, is Engi, who cant heal himself at all, and relies on his pets, so they die a lot :angel:
Lineage 2
Human Mage, uses White and Dark magic, kinda a Hybrid, can heal, as well as having offence, has the usual "mage" attribute of weak defense, so is only good long range, short range its mince meat, but the same is true of the Dark magic users, and White magic users.
Final Fantasy
Also has Black/White mages, and, Red (Hybrids).
However, the way other games seek to "balance" classes, is by imbalancing them. The players in NC, tend to want the classes to be somewhat equal, a Tank !<> APU, APU !<> PE, PE !<> TANK, for instance. But this in itself leads to massive imbalance, because trying to get the classes to balance, tanks have off/def, pe's have off/psi def, apu's have psi off/def, any class which has superior offence, is called for a nerf, any class with superior defence, is called for a nerf. Its all in relation to the class.
When it comes to the PPU, the PPU has outstanding defence, unbalanced compared to its rivals who could never get such defence, which is why people think "lets nerf em!".
If instead of trying to balance the classes with equality, but added inequality, with 1 class having superiority over another, in a circle, i.e. apu kills tank, tank kills pe, pe kills spy, spy kills ppu, ppu kills apu, and mixtures within, apu < pe for instance, you would enforce teamplay for one, and introduce a tactical element.
As for not being able to buff yourself, you would need two PPU's, in case one dies, and then another one to protect the PPU whilst the PPU is rezzing the PPU that died, which would probably be in a hard area for the PPU to die in the first place ;)
Originally posted by petek480
It's very simple to fix it. Ppus are too important becuase of the defenses they give others. Nerf that and they'll still be needed but won't have as great of an impact on the outcome of a fight.So they would still be at every fight. That's why in my first post I outlined that this is a team game. And since it should be that ppus are needed as a support class in a team, they will always be there in that case. So make them weak. Easy to kill. If the team sees someone going after their weak PPU they better fucking take him down fast, or they are gonna lose their support. Get it?
Originally posted by Glok
If the team sees someone going after their weak PPU they better fucking take him down fast, or they are gonna lose their support. Get it?
You only have to look as far as APUs to see why that wouldn't work at all. It would just be a short matter of time before a melee tank ran through and eviscerated the PPU with his Paw.
Originally posted by Glok
So they would still be at every fight. That's why in my first post I outlined that this is a team game. And since it should be that ppus are needed as a support class in a team, they will always be there in that case. So make them weak. Easy to kill. If the team sees someone going after their weak PPU they better fucking take him down fast, or they are gonna lose their support. Get it?
I don't think you get it. Don't fucking nerf there defenses most ppus aren't even that hard to take down. You gotta nerf there importance. Like in my other post, you do that and they won't effect the outcome of a battle as they do now. So they'll still be needed but not as much beucase they won't be as important. So all the clans that want to play monkocron can but it won't help them much it'll actually hurt them becuase they'll have less fighters.
Btw the part where you say that if the enemy is going after there ppu they better take out them else they won't have any support isn't true. If they made ppus weak but left there importances like it is people will just bring twice as many ppus or more.
Originally posted by petek480
Btw the part where you say that if the enemy is going after there ppu they better take out them else they won't have any support isn't true. If they made ppus weak but left there importances like it is people will just bring twice as many ppus or more. LOL, you are probably right.
edit: Considering the flak I'm getting, I'm surprised the poll is evenly split so far...
People need to stop whining about PPUs. It's difficult to exp one, and it's difficult to play one. If someone is willing to dedicate their character to pure healing and buffing and not doing any damage then their should be some definite benefits for that person.
Psycho Killa
22-03-04, 03:51
It's difficult to exp one
Its honestly not that much harder to level a ppu then an apu. All you need is an apu and the chaos caves and hello xp.
and it's difficult to play one
True
If someone is willing to dedicate their character to pure healing and buffing and not doing any damage then their should be some definite benefits for that person.
Sure you should get something in return for doing 0 damage. Though is being godlike and being able to bestow god like powers onto someone a "benefit" or is it just plain going to far.
Andronicus
22-03-04, 04:13
love it - 5 stars.
Shadow Dancer
22-03-04, 04:20
Originally posted by petek480
It's very simple to fix it. Ppus are too important becuase of the defenses they give others. Nerf that and they'll still be needed but won't have as great of an impact on the outcome of a fight.
Maybe KK use the test server to try out different solutions.
Omg use the test server to test. WILD IDEA. :eek:
Originally posted by Keyol45743241
They are already both. If you'd implement that, just watch all the APUs lom to PPU again :rolleyes:
Nah, much simpler. Force a 10 to 20 second break between buffs. That gives you a pretty good chance to shitbuff your victim of choice - and 10 secs without shelter or whatever can kill a PPU.
Then you'd only have to deal with synclamers...... :rolleyes::(
10-20 second break between buffs? They'll die super quick.
And how are they over"powered"?
O_o
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Thats because they know its utterly hopeless to go to an opfight without a ppu since theyre are 110% to important.
No not "overpowered" "overimportant"
FFS, finally someone who emphasized what the problem is.
<3
Originally posted by Glok
Ok, first off. PPUs are a support class, their function is to make other players a bit tougher, and keep them alive. Neocron is a team game, KK even made changes in early retail to the classes and mobs to enforce this. So, every good team will have at least one PPU. ALL MMOs have support classes, and I dare say (*although I haven't played anything but Neocron) that they are important in those other games as well.
So, the problem with PPUs. What exactly is the problem? They are too hard to kill, or they are required for PvP or both? I think it is a combination of that. So, I propose something, and please, think about it for a second before you reply.
What if blessed/holy S/D was foreign cast only? Suddenly PPUs need protection from their team, or they have to buff each other to stay alive, and foreign buffs, if you remember, are now much weaker. Suddenly the PPU is a weak support class that must stay behind the lines.
Also, if this was the case, the PK teams with a PPU would be much easier to deal with if there was only the one PPU. Drop the PPU first, then drop the others. Of course, multi PPU PvP teams would still be almost as tough, but not as tough.
The debuffs can stay in, imo, but would probably be used against the players the PPU is supporting, rather than the PPU, since the best the PPU will have on him/her would be foreign cast buffs anyways.
Again, please think about this before you cry foul. It makes sense to me anyways to have the support class weak, but their effect on others strong. Do I dare post a poll? I think I do. :)
[edited] To add blessed s/d.
1.This wouldnt' change much they would still be too important. And foreign cast shields aren't THAT much weaker than self-cast.
2.Their are no "behind the lines" in a fast paced FPS/rpg game like this. Unless it's a sniper from 500 miles away. But even then..........
3.Like I said, they would still be too important. This would just annoy the hell out of the class, make it too stressful to be one because now the PPUs will need to rely on ppus, and make them sheep to be slaughtered when their alone.
So I vote no.
Originally posted by Richard Angelus
there is only 1 prob with your solution.....
you can't stay 'behind the lines'.......everyone can attack you if he wants to (if you are near your team to support them)
Exactly.
Psyco Groupie
22-03-04, 04:22
PPUS ARE NO MORE IMPORTANT THAN A HACKER AT AN OP FIGHT SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHUT UP ALREADY
Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
PPUS ARE NO MORE IMPORTANT THAN A HACKER AT AN OP FIGHT SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHUT UP ALREADY
How many classes can hack? How many classes can ppu? How about you shut up?
Psyco Groupie
22-03-04, 04:31
If were talking 'overpowered' classes then only spies can hack and only ppus can ppu ..
look i can be iirrational too ! its fun!!! yay !! ooo
Ozambabbaz
22-03-04, 04:34
X said something today, how about making Holy Heal self cast only? i think that would make a major difference
Shadow Dancer
22-03-04, 04:36
Originally posted by Ozambabbaz
X said something today, how about making Holy Heal self cast only? i think that would make a major difference
It wouldn't be a "Major" difference, since a capped bless heal is still ubar.
And Psycho, only ppus can ppu to the extent they do. But many ppus, spies, and pes hack. And even some apus.
Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
If were talking 'overpowered' classes then only spies can hack and only ppus can ppu ..
look i can be iirrational too ! its fun!!! yay !! ooo
Apparently you missed my point. Yes you do need hackers to take ops but it's not like only one class can hack making there importance not as great as a ppu.
Ozambabbaz
22-03-04, 04:42
impose a range-degenerating effect on the blessed heal also then? like 50% efficiency at max range?
Whoever was talking about a ppu doing 0 damage, is that true though? :rolleyes: given time a ppu can kill any class 1 v 1 and take 0 damage themselfs which isnt acceptable.
Dont say "yeah well who is stupid enough to hang around for that long lolzololzz1111!!! n00000b" cuz it doesnt take an awful long time for a ppu to kill someone considering there capabilities, i had a rifle wielding ppu on my fully capped tank in the underground of an op as i gr'ed in and i had to run and hide from him behind turrets which is a perfect example of not being able to run off...it was either die by the ppu or zone up and die by the 5 clans outside.
Well ive come to a conclusion...well one ive had since the day i started pvp'ing and ran into that oh so godlike freeze spell, make it pvm or remove it, fuck remove my 4 slot one from my ppu it really doesnt bother me so long as i can pvp against someone at the speeds i spec for and not the speed a ppu thinks i should spec at.:mad:
well i got news for you people, MELEE tanks are the problem
Ok so i kinda agree that melee tanks are quite hard, is this including the state of freeze combined with the range of melee or not? i got both a ppu and melee tank, and the ppu OWNZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!! the fucking melee tank in balance issues, remove freeze and it would be close but the ppu would still be the more overpowered one.
Eh why not take the PPU out of the game then we can bring on the bring back the PPU after people start dieing while hunting and exping.
Lets see those MC5 poping then we can see how under appricated the PPU is.
Psycho Killa
22-03-04, 06:51
Originally posted by KimmyG
Eh why not take the PPU out of the game then we can bring on the bring back the PPU after people start dieing while hunting and exping.
Lets see those MC5 poping then we can see how under appricated the PPU is.
Thats half the problem with ppu's though. People are so dependent on them they dont even realize it is possible to pvp without them. It is possible to level up just fine without them. The only thing you need a ppu for is an op fight if the other team has a ppu themselves (which is almost almost always ever).
I agree 100% that the ppu is under appreciated but that doesn't justify the fact that they are to important in this game.
Keyol45743241
22-03-04, 06:52
Originally posted by KimmyG
Eh why not take the PPU out of the game then we can bring on the bring back the PPU after people start dieing while hunting and exping.Nah... just fix PvM difficulty afterwards and keep the pesky PPU plague out of neocron for the better of everybody else :rolleyes:
Mmmmh... remove heal sanctum alltogether? Make Antiheal (spell & drone) work instantly and/or stack and actually remove sanctum (if you wouldn't agree to have it removed completely in the first place..... :rolleyes: )
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Thats half the problem with ppu's though. People are so dependent on them they dont even realize it is possible to pvp without them. It is possible to level up just fine without them. The only thing you need a ppu for is an op fight if the other team has a ppu themselves (which is almost almost always ever).
I agree 100% that the ppu is under appreciated but that doesn't justify the fact that they are to important in this game.
Eh 95% of people run with a PPU strapped to there ass. Cave leveling would be a bitch without a PPU. anyway I think once mass lose of imps started people would cry.
Anyway it would be better with zero PPU fight wise I think. APU would need to be changed.
Shadow Dancer
22-03-04, 06:59
Originally posted by KimmyG
APU would need to be changed.
How so?
Originally posted by KimmyG
Eh 95% of people run with a PPU strapped to there ass. Cave leveling would be a bitch without a PPU. anyway I think once mass lose of imps started people would cry.
PvM is a cakewalk with a ppu. Even with 0 resist in poison the chaos caves are a cakewalk with a ppu. I don't think PvM was meant to be that easy.
Cave leveling is very much possible for a team of people who are specced for those particular mobs AND who aren't careless. You ever notice a team without a ppu in the caves, and they are all cautious and careful, then as soon as a ppu comes people start dying left and right.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
How so?
No shelter, they would be far to weak
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