View Full Version : About PPU's from a PPU
Okay we have all this lets make this self cast only and lets nerf this and so on and so forth and its all making me feel like deleting my ppu. Currently in op fites the only thing i have to look out for is Holy antibuff and the rest of the time i can just stand there out healing everything. Even dev (what is that dev it kinda tickles)
I thought i would say what i feel.
Re-increase the dev to what it was (at last i take dmg from a weapon and have to run away)
Re-increase the CS again more dmg to a ppu is good and those two should sort a tank out.
Apu's are fine against ppu's with HAB and HL
Give Pe's and Spy's their damn terminator already and increase the TL slightly so that riot round hurt a ppu more than they do already.
Make a uber force Pistol (possible low tech) called little cricket or something apt that does massive force dmg but one shot blast only.
With all these things means u don't HAVE to have a APU there all the time and u can kill ppu's. I like a challenge as a ppu and with only one challenge out there HAB it gets pretty boring. Make each class able to do dmg to a ppu and make it hard for him to sit there and rez everyone.
That won't really do much. As long as people can't solo every single ppu there is they won't be happy.
Wouldn't it just be easier to reduce the effectiveness of PPUs shelter/defl/heal ?
Because from the perspective of other classes boosting all the weapons kinda scews balance.
Guns that hurt PPUs will ******** everyone else. Wheres the balance in that?
You want ppl to rely on PPUs even more? o_O
ppus are fine. the only thing that needs to be done is remove parashock and damage boost from pvp, make it pvm only
Originally posted by SorkZmok
Guns that hurt PPUs will ******** everyone else. Wheres the balance in that?
You want ppl to rely on PPUs even more? o_O
We have anti-vhc weapons that don't do much damage to anything other than vehicles. Why not anti-PPU or anti-monk weapons?
Lifewaster
21-03-04, 22:52
I'm capped ppu but am easy to kill cos I have gimped psi use.
I think PPU just needs a 50% reduce on holy heal , and a lower cap on spell rofs, but not a lower cap that no ppu can reach without all int in psi use , instead make psi use increasingly useless after 150 psi use, so PPUs can get 40ish rof at 150 psi use and maybe a max of 50 rof if they go all out in psi use.
This means u wouldnt have to sacrifice all int to be a top ppu, since you can softcap ROF at 150 psi use , and also the top ppus wont be as much hugely better than standard ppus since ROf hardcaps will be lower.
Regarding the heal, it been said before, change heal durations to 30 seconds with same overall damage healed = only half the instant heal power during sustained fire. If thats too severe then go to 20 seconds = 25% reduction in heal dps.
Psycho Killa
21-03-04, 23:48
No first we give rifle pe's a rifle that strips all combat and defensive buffs (heat haz/ rifle pistol etc)
Then we give pistols a gun that removes heal and heal sanctum.
Throw in a tank cannon that removes every ppu buff.
Then the game will be balanced.
Or if you think like kk does you will think the game is balanced.
Dont forget the rumor of a magical weapon that drains your psi pool that my friend is balance.
no way whats the point in increasing the dev and cs JUST to kill a ppu, think of the other classes, and ecspecially spies :p
anyways airtn ppus meant to be more or less invincible, whats the point im making a class with no offensive skill whatsoever but they can still be killed and have to run away, the most pointless class in the game from that perspective
yea, well, dev and cs suck all ass now, id rather play my PE any day over a tank now...and that's not the way it should be. PE's shouldn't be the fighter class...
Clownst0pper
22-03-04, 00:26
And this is the worst thread ever, sure, as a PPU, it may make life 'a little less easy' but for every other class, it makes playing not worth the hassle.
K's bro-
Shadow Dancer
22-03-04, 00:26
Originally posted by Possessed
Wouldn't it just be easier to reduce the effectiveness of PPUs shelter/defl/heal ?
Because from the perspective of other classes boosting all the weapons kinda scews balance.
You're right. If you're gonna boost weapons so that they really hurt a ppu WITH shelter, it's just gonna throw off balance.
I don't like this idea. If you're gonna give people anti-ppu weaponry, it shouldn't just be in the form of more damage. It should be specifically against shields. But i'm not sure that's a good idea.
I think we just need to reduce the importance of ppus. I don't think this achieves that.
Weaken the ppu's please, the very fact that we need specialized weapons to fight ppu's shows how ridiculous ppu's are. The solution is not to add more weapons to take ppu's down, it's to bring ppu's down to a closer level as the rest of the classes.
Hey I have a radical idea, what if monks were actualy weak to force/pierce? You know like we used to be, like we were intended to be. Force/pierce were supposed to be the monk weaknesses. If you attack a spy/tank/pe with force/pierce they laugh at you. But if you attack a monk with one, they turn into swiss cheese. To all the other dmg types tho, monks would have the best defense.
I liked that setup. It meant Tanks had to carry tgc's specialy to kill monks, otherwise they'd use the CS.
I still bring my SpeedGun around with explosive ammo. :p
Though it's usually useless against PPUs unless I get a sly TL3 deflector in. :(
I'm with Carinth on this one. Take out the HAB (and spirit ammo, and the little anti-buff spells that no one uses) then on that basis reduce the PPUs spell power/pierce resist until PPU is balanced.
And while you're at it make the catharsis spells useful or take them out the fucking rare pool.
Shadow Dancer
22-03-04, 01:24
Originally posted by Carinth
Hey I have a radical idea, what if monks were actualy weak to force/pierce?
Then remove holy deflector, thanks. Apus are weak enough as it is to pierce. If you want to weaken ppus, do it through their buffs not their armor.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Then remove holy deflector, thanks. Apus are weak enough as it is to pierce. If you want to weaken ppus, do it through their buffs not their armor.
I'm not so sure about that, I'll hafta do some tests. With a pp resistor we can have some pretty wicked force res and then a heavy belt ontop of that, and all the piece/res from holy spirit armor. Monks are anything but weak to force. It's only hybrids who use exp psi controllers that are weak to force.
Also modifyin deflector effects all teh other classes too, since they use deflector, its much easier to fill the reqs for def then shelter.
Psycho Killa
22-03-04, 01:57
1) Remove deflector. No tank or pe needs this and theres alot more spies have to worry about before force.
2) Lower the armor a decent amount but not to much dont wanna die just getting breathed on by a hurler.
3) Tough for apu's they die quick as it is not like removing 30 or so force/ pierce will render them useless. Will help solve the problem also of insanely godlike apu/ppu combos.
Funny, my hybrid has better force/pierce than anything else besides energy. Might have something to do with using a holy spirit belt rather than a heavy int belt (I can't use heavys yet anyways... :p) Once I can use a heavy fire belt, the best weapon against me will be an xray modded one.
Psyco Groupie
22-03-04, 02:07
The only reason the dev hurt so much is because its stacks did all their damage at the start or atleast most of it .. totally negating the fact thats its a stacking weapon ... now its damage is that of a tl98 weap not tl 115 ... if its upped to tl 100 the poison made a little more potent then were talking.
I still think the 'best' way to kill a ppu should be by removing their buffs, and since apus and soon spies/pes will have that power you cant say 'omg its not fair you must have an apu to kill a ppu' .. when its perfectly reasonable to have a few apus at op fights anywho .. :rolleyes:
and when the spirit ammo is realeased properly .. or however its gonna be actually released its a tad faster than hab eh?
*edit remove def ? ROFL one moonie would kill _all_ monks in the zone ... just leave em ffs .. just add mroe anti buffs methods available to 'all' .. not everyone .. make em 'rare' and make the ammo actually sold or recyc ..
Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
I still think the 'best' way to kill a ppu should be by removing their buffs
......
just add mroe anti buffs methods available to 'all'
That someone could actually think that makes me wanna cry. Anti-buff attacks are just a crappy quick-fix to the PPU problem. They don't balance the class at all and they make PPU really annoying to play.
If as PPU I had a disarm spell that removed all items from the attackers quickbelt then maybe...
I'd much rather they just found a way to balance monks without resorting to sledgehammer-on-nutshell attacks.
Psycho Killa
22-03-04, 02:28
Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
*edit remove def ? ROFL one moonie would kill _all_ monks in the zone
All the shitty monks that have no skills or no resist force maybe? I dont even bother throwing deflector on half the time until its neccesary.
Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
just add mroe anti buffs methods available to 'all' .. not everyone .. make em 'rare' and make the ammo actually sold or recyc ..
O wow yea that will fix the problem. Since noone would bother playing a ppu anymore due to the stress of dealing with all the stuff a ppu has to handle now tack on the fact that you gotta keep an eye on each and every enemy every second of the day to make sure they arent removing your buffs or your instantly fucked. I prefer dieing to a gun that does more damage to me then suddenly getting my shields dropped out of nowhere and dieing that way.
Debuffing weapons don't solve the ppu problem they make it worse. They give people a false sense of importance in an op fight. They give people the idea ppu's can be killed now. When in fact any good ppu will adapt and overcome making them all powerful just like before. All the lesser ppu's who can hardly handle themself and another person will be dedicating themselves the whole time to keeping there selves alive. After a while they will say fuck it why do I go to a fight when all I do is attempt to keep myself alive.
Debuffing weapons dont solve shit.
Psyco Groupie
22-03-04, 02:33
Well .. all your magical plans to make ppus 'less dependant' suck too .. so how about
its fine
kthxbye
I don't think in giving antibuff methods to all classes as a good idea; I'd rather take out all antibuffs existing in the game and reduce the defences of PPUs.
Creating special weapons to take down PPUs makes the class annoying as hell to play, and don't really solve many problems. Reducing the defences directly sets the class in an stand point, they should have to worry about buffing/healing the other classes, not permanetly annoyed checking if their buffs are still active.
And perhaps then we could have some kind of PPU offence.
The idea of removing deflectors and reducing force resists in monks might not be the best, but I would sacrifice that on my APU if monks become more balanced.
Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
Well .. all your magical plans to make ppus 'less dependant' suck too .. so how about
its fine
kthxbye
It won't be fine until PPU are killable without the HAB or other insta-nerf weapons.
Psycho Killa
22-03-04, 02:44
I dont have any magical plans to fix the ppu problem.
Though I know, realize, and admit there is something wrong with ppu's.
Its not the fact that they are to important. Its not the fact that they are very hard to kill. Its the combination of these factors. What we need to do to fix the ppu problem is actualy decide what it is a ppu should do. Do we want them to make all people around them godlike, do we want them to have godlike defense. Or do we want a balance of the two somehow.
I think the solution is somewhere in between.
1) Make it so it isnt NECESSARY for a ppu to be in a fight.
2) Make it so ppu's are a bit easier to kill. This does not mean give everyone and there mothers a way to strip ppu shields every 2 seconds.
3) Tone down the ammount they can seriously buff a player up. I mean as it is now I can reduce the damage someone takes by 35%. I can cast a heal that ticks 32 hp or so every second. I can add 20 to there main combat 25 body heal 25 to two of there con resists. I can depoisin/depara/dedamageboost in the blink of an eye. I can cripple the person theyre shooting. I can make the person theyre shooting take alot more damage by damage boosting them.
Thats what's wrong with ppu's and giving every tom dick and harry a weapon to kill ppu's isnt going to change there importance and neccesity in a fight.
Shadow Dancer
22-03-04, 03:17
PK I think the problem is #3.
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
3) Tough for apu's they die quick as it is not like removing 30 or so force/ pierce will render them useless. Will help solve the problem also of insanely godlike apu/ppu combos.
Every bit of defense counts. I feel a big difference using a ds over xp controller 3. And XP cont is -20. You want to remove an additional 30 "or so"? LOL. That's going to far.
If you wanna tone down apu/ppu combos, then do something about them teaming together. Don't screw over solo apus just because ppu buffs are fucked up.
:rolleyes:
Originally posted by Carinth
I'm not so sure about that, I'll hafta do some tests. With a pp resistor we can have some pretty wicked force res and then a heavy belt ontop of that, and all the piece/res from holy spirit armor. Monks a weak to force.
Sorry but apus can't afford non psi chips unless they KNOW they will have a ppu with them.
Monks aren't weak to force, but apus are weak to pierce.
And that's still WITH a ds. Those who are forced to use gimptroller 3, will get screwed further.
Nobody is weak to force at all really. Standard bones give force armor, I think that's the main influence. Spies and PEs have enough spare STR to cap FOR, Tanks get loads from armor and FOR from marine/herc/moveon, so it's not a problem. Pierce doesn't benefit from bones so that's generally the main weakness.
Removing deflector I'm honestly not too sure about. Moon Striker isn't a problem unless you're stupid enough to stand still in a group of people, especially give the fact you can't hit the side of a barn with it. But SpeedGun and Libby will become a serious problem for PPUs. Are you sure you could manage being sniped by a Spy, a Tank chases you with SpeedGun, you para him then a PE unstealths next to you with a Lib?
But I think it could work if shelter gives a minor protection to pierce. It only needs to be say 20%-25%, I think that would probably be enough. I'm all for making pierce and maybe force a PPU's weakness, but removing deflector altogether might be a step too far. Incorporate it into shelter at 20%-25% on Holy Shelter and I think it would be about right.
On the plus side, that also cuts down the PPU's workload since he only has to worry about Shelter on his team, cutting the time to shield someone in half.
Originally posted by Carinth
I'm not so sure about that, I'll hafta do some tests. With a pp resistor we can have some pretty wicked force res and then a heavy belt ontop of that, and all the piece/res from holy spirit armor. Monks are anything but weak to force. It's only hybrids who use exp psi controllers that are weak to force.
Also modifyin deflector effects all teh other classes too, since they use deflector, its much easier to fill the reqs for def then shelter.
U have to realise Carinth SD uses DS/Core/Attack3/Exp Cont3
Also as a ppu i would rather die to people using guns that actually dmg me as opposed to *bang* "oh sd gone recast *bang* "oh sd gone recast *bang* "oh sd gone recast *bang* "oh sd gone recast *bang* "oh sd gone recast *bang* "oh sd gone recast *bang* "oh sd gone recast *bang* "oh sd gone recast *bang* "oh sd gone recast *bang* "oh sd gone recast *bang* "oh sd gone recast
Originally posted by Candaman
Re-increase the dev to what it was (at last i take dmg from a weapon and have to run away)
Disagree. It hardly got nerfed last patch they just changed the timing to allow heal to kick in before the dot lands, which is great considering some classes CANNOT VIABLY GET POISON RESIST without "stealthing and putting on belt/chest" which is absolute bullshit, fuck stealth whores to hell.
Originally posted by Candaman
Re-increase the CS again more dmg to a ppu is good and those two should sort a tank out.
CS was great before the nerf now its a POS, ravager and devourer are both better then the CS. I agree, the CS was fine in its powerfull state last patch.
Originally posted by Candaman
Apu's are fine against ppu's with HAB and HL
I think APUs are in good shape atm. Agree.
Originally posted by Candaman
Give Pe's and Spy's their damn terminator already and increase the TL slightly so that riot round hurt a ppu more than they do already.
If only KK knew how bad it makes them look when they take months upon months upon months including numerous patch mistakes regarding the terminator just to get the thing ingame properly. Do it already! How can anyone take you seriously if you let this go much longer?
Originally posted by Candaman
Make a uber force Pistol (possible low tech) called little cricket or something apt that does massive force dmg but one shot blast only.
Nice TL raise in pocket rockets might do the trick, they should implament the TL changes asap. Force modded wyatt earp will currently outdamage heal slightly on a capped DS ppu with good force resist. Non_DS ppu with an exp3 in will take quite a bit of dmg.
Originally posted by Candaman
blabla
raise the tankocron weapons will nerf ALL other classes again. think bevor u post
Originally posted by SpawnTDK
raise the tankocron weapons will nerf ALL other classes again. think bevor u post
And check ur fucking spelling before u post stfu tanks were not super over powered before the nerf but they were the main dmg dealers as they are meant to be. Other classes are not meant to take cs burst to the face better than they take a clip from PE.
Originally posted by g0rt
Disagree. It hardly got nerfed last patch they just changed the timing to allow heal to kick in before the dot lands, which is great considering some classes CANNOT VIABLY GET POISON RESIST without "stealthing and putting on belt/chest" which is absolute bullshit, fuck stealth whores to hell.
ok on other classes it would be a bitch of a weapon but as a ppu aslong as i have atp sanc up then it takes the stacks off after maybe one tick and i mean all stacks with a heal on i can now rez through 2 or 3 dev's as long as atp sanc is up
:rolleyes:
view the game, there are enough tanks
in coop with apu u can kill the ppu, but, damn thats meen u need teamplay and you cant be the uber singlebash0r. jea its a hard world ....
:lol:
U've obviously never been ppu. Even before the nerf one dev on its own didn't scare me two maybe 3 and i was running what this increase would do is make it possible for a team of spies or team of tanks or team of pe's have the ability to take down a ppu not solo but working together without always having the need to have a apu there.
When i read such posts i always think: "hmm and when they whined the ppus down whats next? every heal caster or what?"
Good ppus deserve the power they have atm in this game and bad ones die after one antibuff so what?:) And its not ok cryin for makin ppus weaker just your enemy has skilled ppus:o
Originally posted by Bruce
When i read such posts i always think: "hmm and when they whined the ppus down whats next? every heal caster or what?"
Good ppus deserve the power they have atm in this game and bad ones die after one antibuff so what?:) And its not ok cryin for makin ppus weaker just your enemy has skilled ppus:o
I agree 100% but until SD can solo a ppu then they are overpowered and their will be threads like nerf ppu's make their spells all non castable muahahaha!!1111oneone1337onethreethreeseven
Originally posted by Candaman
I agree 100% but until SD can solo a ppu then they are overpowered and their will be threads like nerf ppu's make their spells all non castable muahahaha!!1111oneone1337onethreethreeseven
No, they will be overpowered until they are not the single deciding factor at OP wars.
Shadow Dancer
22-03-04, 12:42
Originally posted by Scikar
No, they will be overpowered until they are not the single deciding factor at OP wars.
Exactly. At least Scikar has the intelligence to understand that.
Originally posted by Scikar
No, they will be overpowered until they are not the single deciding factor at OP wars.
Thats not the point GOOD ppus decide OP wars BUT so can GOOD apus and GOOD tanks, its plain not true that ppus are not killable.
Originally posted by Scikar
No, they will be overpowered until they are not the single deciding factor at OP wars.
Scenario: Op war both sides have 2 ppu's one has 6 apu's one has 1 apu both have 2 tank which to u think will win.
Scenario: Op war both sides have 2 ppu's one has 6 tanks's one has 1 tank both have 2 apu's which to u think will win.
PPU's are not the deciding fact numbers are the deciding fact
Originally posted by Bruce
Thats not the point GOOD ppus decide OP wars BUT so can GOOD apus and GOOD tanks, its plain not true that ppus are not killable.
Who said they're completely unkillable?
Did you ever win a large (20v20) OP fight without a PPU?
In a 20v20 with one PPU on one team, and 3 on the other, which side is more likely to win?
In a 3v3 in Pepper Park, one team has a PPU, the other does not, which team wins?
PPUs ARE the deciding factors. A good APU can antibuff a PPU without him noticing and then kill him with HL. That's great, but it won't necessarily win the OP fight. And it's useless if the APU's team don't have a PPU of their own. The APU NEEDS PPU buffs to do that, without them he's dead in 5 HL hits. I'd like to see an APU that can drop a PPU at an OP fight when he's not buffed himself.
Originally posted by Scikar
Who said they're completely unkillable?
Did you ever win a large (20v20) OP fight without a PPU?
In a 20v20 with one PPU on one team, and 3 on the other, which side is more likely to win?
In a 3v3 in Pepper Park, one team has a PPU, the other does not, which team wins?
PPUs ARE the deciding factors. A good APU can antibuff a PPU without him noticing and then kill him with HL. That's great, but it won't necessarily win the OP fight. And it's useless if the APU's team don't have a PPU of their own. The APU NEEDS PPU buffs to do that, without them he's dead in 5 HL hits. I'd like to see an APU that can drop a PPU at an OP fight when he's not buffed himself.
3 v 3 in pepper park 3 are tanks 3 are spies who do u think will win should we nerf tanks?
Originally posted by Candaman
3 v 3 in pepper park 3 are tanks 3 are spies who do u think will win should we nerf tanks?
That's not a predetermined outcome. Make those 3 spies Divide, Rade, and eggs and I'll bet the spies win.
But you still didn't answer my point. Tank + APU + PPU vs Tank + APU + PE. The first team will win without a single loss if the PPU is half as good as you claim to be.
Originally posted by Scikar
That's not a predetermined outcome. Make those 3 spies Divide, Rade, and eggs and I'll bet the spies win.
U can't bring skill into this because i've known ppu's that have dropped quicker than spies. Now ur problem is u see the good ppu's that play and take time to get good and because the good ppu's and their aren't many of them 5 i can think of off the top of my head on pluto they mean the whole class is overpowered where as u go to one of the nub ones and u can cs him to death.
I've beaten clans that have attacked with 4 ppu's and a team of attacked with just me and 2 attackers but thats just cus of ppu xperience and the lack of that the enemy had.
Now take ur rade eggs divide idea and change it round make the three tanks tupac, serve, alex and three regular inexpierinced nub *insert class even ppu* they would be running for the zone line in no time.
Originally posted by Candaman
U can't bring skill into this because i've known ppu's that have dropped quicker than spies. Now ur problem is u see the good ppu's that play and take time to get good and because the good ppu's and their aren't many of them 5 i can think of off the top of my head on pluto they mean the whole class is overpowered where as u go to one of the nub ones and u can cs him to death.
I've beaten clans that have attacked with 4 ppu's and a team of attacked with just me and 2 attackers but thats just cus of ppu xperience and the lack of that the enemy had.
Now take ur rade eggs divide idea and change it round make the three tanks tupac, serve, alex and three regular inexpierinced nub *insert class even ppu* they would be running for the zone line in no time.
So what?
Take tupac, serve, alex, split them into 3 teams. Tupac and Rade, Alex and eggs, Serve and .cyl0n. Now which one's going to win?
Originally posted by Scikar
So what?
Take tupac, serve, alex, split them into 3 teams. Tupac and Rade, Alex and eggs, Serve and .cyl0n. Now which one's going to win?
wtf are u talking about were talking about a single class being overpowered ur saying ppu's are overpowered and a deciding factor @ op fites and i'm saying that if one team had 5 more apu's than the enemy and the enemy had 5 more ppu's but only one attacker the one with 5 apu's would win. So by ur logic that would make apu's overpowered @ op fites so lets take them out the game make them take up some passive or something.
Then next one team has more tanks then tanks become the deciding factor shit better remove them from game force them to be half melee.
Shadow Dancer
22-03-04, 13:12
Ok since you say it's about numbers, how about one apu and one ppu versus 4 tanks.
Their ya go. The 4 tanks should win. *snort*
and again it all comes down to skill of the ppu/tanks if the tanks were clever two would go after ppu keep him busy while apu got pwnd by two tanks and then 4 dev's on a ppu will have him runing. This is not a factor of what class they are its how good the person playing them is.
So basically your argument comes down to the only reason PPUs are overpowered is because the very best PPUs are the absolute best players in the game?
Tell you what Can, why don't me and SD just stop posting on this. Then in 3 months time, when I have antibuff ammo for my gat cannon, HL has built in antibuff, Lib has antibuff ammo, PEs have a holy para that only works on PPUs, and Holy Heal has a RoF of 5/min, we'll do what you're doing now and say no PPUs don't need a boost or any help, they're fine as they are it's just you suck.
Originally posted by Scikar
So basically your argument comes down to the only reason PPUs are overpowered is because the very best PPUs are the absolute best players in the game?
Tell you what Can, why don't me and SD just stop posting on this. Then in 3 months time, when I have antibuff ammo for my gat cannon, HL has built in antibuff, Lib has antibuff ammo, PEs have a holy para that only works on PPUs, and Holy Heal has a RoF of 5/min, we'll do what you're doing now and say no PPUs don't need a boost or any help, they're fine as they are it's just you suck.
all this stuff is what u and SD keep posting about nerf this self cast that all the damn time thats y this post is about giving each class weapons that when used together can take down ppu's or at least give em a run for the money. And i think u think ppu's are overpowered because the very best ppu's are the absaloute best ppu's in the game
Shadow Dancer
22-03-04, 13:24
Originally posted by Candaman
and again it all comes down to skill of the ppu/tanks if the tanks were clever two would go after ppu keep him busy while apu got pwnd by two tanks and then 4 dev's on a ppu will have him runing. This is not a factor of what class they are its how good the person playing them is.
uh huh
I can't even count the number of times me and a ppu(especially if it's one I work well with) clear out a whole group of people.
And as for 2 tank to keep the ppu busy? Are you serious?
Assuming they were all equally skilled, the apu/ppu team would win in a heart beat. And I thought you said you can't bring skill into it? heh
It's funny Cannings, you love to point out that you're a high level PPU and bring your wisdom and experience to the forums on the subject of PPUs, but you are distracted by 2 tanks and you can't keep an APU alive against 2 tanks? Did you leave your parashock in the gogo or can you just not aim well enough to cast it?
i didn't say i would be distracted by two tanks i said ur average joe shmoe ppu would be and shad even though i hate u with everything i have i will admit u are a good apu and i would expect u to take out 4 tanks without sweating it
Yeha but you said the tanks are skilled and clever enough to split 2 on PPU and 2 on APU, and then take them out. As you already said, put the 3 best tanks against 3 noob PPUs and the tanks will send them packing. That proves nothing. Assume the PPU and APU are the best of their class on Pluto, fighting the 4 best tanks. Would they still lose?
So now are we saying the class is overpowered or the people playing a balanced class better than most the server is better than the others. From ur post u act like the most nooby person can lvl up to make a cookie cutter ppu and he'll be uber because he is a ppu class and i'm saying i disagree i think he'll drop as quick as a regualar runner
Originally posted by Candaman
shad .... i will admit u are a good apu and i would expect u to take out 4 tanks without sweating it
LOL
i think imma change my sig soon :lol: :lol:
Are you having trouble reading the word 'best' Cannings?
Are u having trouble thinking scikar.
Let me put it simply u make it sound like the entire ppu class is overpowered where a nooby ppu that isn't very good will die as quick as a tank. You want to nerf the good ppu's but ur saying its the whole ppu class when its not its only a select few ppu's that have put time and effort into becoming that good.
Now u wanna nerf the whole class just because some ppu's are hard to kill not impossible but hard. You say ppu's are the deciding factor @ op wars does this mean u won't go to op wars without ppu's?
I have been to op fites with just pe's and spies u should try it because u know having a ppu is not a requirement but a luxury. I've seen sxr @ op wars without ppu's i've even seen shad when he was in pimp @ fites without ppu's jsut because half the server will not fite without a ppu that does not make them the deciding factor.
Originally posted by Candaman
i will admit u are a good apu and i would expect u to take out 4 tanks without sweating it
i would say medocre at best and certainly be surprised if he could take out 4 tanks in real combat not in PP infact i'd go as far to say he couldnt take out another single apu in pure combat without hitting the zone faster than a bitch in heat.
What is this... you can't judge the class looking at the average joe who has no clue to setup properly his char. If we did this we'd still have our hybrids.
PPUs are so hard to kill that we need special weapons to take them down, and on top of that have the most important role in game, yay that's balance.
Originally posted by Sleawer
What is this... you can't judge the class looking at the average joe who has no clue to setup properly his char. If we did this we'd still have our hybrids.
PPUs are so hard to kill that we need special weapons to take them down, and on top of that have the most important role in game, yay that's balance.
[edited violation of fourm rules][freya]
Well for my money PPU just plain are the most vital class at OP wars. We didn't stand a cat in hells chance of beating <a certain pluto BD clan> because they had a 1 to 1 PPU/tank ratio. It wasn't until we raised our own ppu ratio to 1/2 ppu/attacker that we came close to winning. As we just plain can't field 1 ppu per attacker we very rarely win.
Numbers don't help at all. 1 PPU babysitting 4 tanks just has 3 dead tanks and one they're trying to keep alive :(
This annoys me a lot as PPU. I want to support my team, not choose one person on my team, camp up their arse to keep them alive, and let all the others die.
The role of the PPU needs to be clearly defined -- I'd go with "Providing healing and support to a team" -- then the class needs to be setup to do that. If the PPUs role is defined to be "confer immortality to one teammate while laughing like a maniac as the others roast in hell" then the current neocron is spot on and we can end this discussion right now :rolleyes:
Originally posted by MrChumble
Well for my money PPU just plain are the most vital class at OP wars. We didn't stand a cat in hells chance of beating <a certain pluto BD clan> because they had a 1 to 1 PPU/tank ratio. It wasn't until we raised our own ppu ratio to 1/2 ppu/attacker that we came close to winning. As we just plain can't field 1 ppu per attacker we very rarely win.
Numbers don't help at all. 1 PPU babysitting 4 tanks just has 3 dead tanks and one they're trying to keep alive :(
This annoys me a lot as PPU. I want to support my team, not choose one person on my team, camp up their arse to keep them alive, and let all the others die.
The role of the PPU needs to be clearly defined -- I'd go with "Providing healing and support to a team" -- then the class needs to be setup to do that. If the PPUs role is defined to be "confer immortality to one teammate while laughing like a maniac as the others roast in hell" then the current neocron is spot on and we can end this discussion right now :rolleyes:
Then u need to getter better urself watch ur team icons see who's getting hit see if they need s/d/heal and keep all of them alive
Originally posted by Canadaman
edited for consistancy
Eh? You don't know me, you don't have a clue how I play.
PPUs have the best defence in the game; you can't deny that.
PPUs have the most important role in the game, and only them are good at it... and you cannot deny this either.
You have no argument, thus you make an stupid assumption of how I play. Bravo.
I make no assumption u don't need special weapons to take down all ppu's only the good ones. Hell i even took down a ppu with just fire beam the other day does that make fire beam overpowered? or maybe my apu is overpowered? PPU's have the best defence and 0 offence do they really scare u that much onoz maybe they mite para u and do 2 dmg.
Originally posted by Candaman
Then u need to getter better urself watch ur team icons see who's getting hit see if they need s/d/heal and keep all of them alive
See the thing is I'm a normal average joe bloggs human, not 3l33t-c$kiddy|pr0@aol.com[UK2]. I can usually keep track of the health and buffs on a team of 4 or 5, but that doesn't mean I can heal them all at once, or buff them all at once, or even manage to target them as they mix it up in PvP (or warp around the map due to Neocrons netcode :D )
More to the point I shouldn't HAVE to be superhuman to play the class effectively. It just further stretches the divide between the awesome PPUs and all the rest (although I've never seen a PPU who could heal and buff 5 people at once without using group buffs, which are no use in combat).
Originally posted by MrChumble
See the thing is I'm a normal average joe bloggs human, not 3l33t-c$kiddy|pr0@aol.com[UK2]. I can usually keep track of the health and buffs on a team of 4 or 5, but that doesn't mean I can heal them all at once, or buff them all at once, or even manage to target them as they mix it up in PvP (or warp around the map due to Neocrons netcode :D )
More to the point I shouldn't HAVE to be superhuman to play the class effectively. It just further stretches the divide between the awesome PPUs and all the rest (although I've never seen a PPU who could heal and buff 5 people at once without using group buffs, which are no use in combat).
Its not a case of doing it all @ the same time but i've been to op fites b4 when i've been the only ppu and i haven't had to end up with one person left alive and everyone else dead and the ability to land that needed heal on ur attacker in the middle of a cluster fuck of people is what makes a good ppu
I don't care if you take shit PPUs with your fire beam.
FACT is that a decent PPU can withstand ANY weapon in the game, and you need HAB to take them down effectively, another monk weapon. And HAB is a special weapon taken into the game to destroy PPU effects.
You might do zero offence, which is not true, but still... however this does not justify your extreme defence AND most important role and dedicing factor in PvP situations at the same time.
Originally posted by Sleawer
I don't care if you take shit PPUs with your fire beam.
FACT is that a decent PPU can withstand ANY weapon in the game, and you need HAB to take them down effectively, another monk weapon. And HAB is a special weapon taken into the game to destroy PPU effects.
You might do zero offence, which is not true, but still... however this does not justify your extreme defence AND most important role and dedicing factor in PvP situations at the same time.
Every class has a weapon that does more dmg fire to pe's hl to tanks terminator to all are these specialist weapons?
U say any decent ppu but in reality that is not a massive number of people just because it is the more active and more well known ppu's that can stay alive. PPu's are not meant to be soloable u add a Dev to a libby or PE and para u'll get dead ppu u add pe and termi to db and para'd ppu u get dead ppu.
This game is all about team work y don't u try using it before complaining on forums that some ppu's are over powered cus u can't solo them with your non-specialist weapons
Originally posted by Candaman
Its not a case of doing it all @ the same time but i've been to op fites b4 when i've been the only ppu and i haven't had to end up with one person left alive and everyone else dead and the ability to land that needed heal on ur attacker in the middle of a cluster fuck of people is what makes a good ppu
I'm happy for you, because I can't do that, not against a team that is 50% PPUs.
PPU is one class of 5, it makes logical sense that they should be about 1/5th of an effective OP war team. The reality is though that more = better. If you can manage a 50/50 PPU/attacker ratio you're pretty much unstoppable unless the enemy can manage the same.
PPU should be a support class, and one should be able to serve a team of five or so. Not make 5 people immortal, but effectively get them re-healed and buffed if they drop back from the fighting.
If it was down to me I'd probably reduce the effectiveness of all foreign cast buffs/heals by a further 50%, then make group buffs affect team-mates only. That would make them properly useful in an OP fight.
I really wish KK would throw a comment or two in here :(
i don't know i was @ emmerson last nite preparing for a mock op battle in clan when ff came storming through and killed 2 or 3 of us.
We came gr'd in everyone being combat ready already we had 2 maybe 3 ppu's against i'm not sure how many they had 3 at least don't think i saw more than 4 but we had some wikid fights and it wouldn't have been half as fun without the ppu's on either side.
Now we had 3 fights last night in total and i loved all of them they could have gone either way. Now without ppu's these fights would have lasted 30 secs thats not a fight and each ppu had 3 or 4 to look after and it wasn't hard to do some died that made ur load lighter.
Op fites now are balanced and a lot of fun win or lose it doesn't matter and as it is now i wouldn't change a thing cept maybe give tanks a bit more power
Originally posted by Candaman
Every class has a weapon that does more dmg fire to pe's hl to tanks terminator to all are these specialist weapons?
U say any decent ppu but in reality that is not a massive number of people just because it is the more active and more well known ppu's that can stay alive. PPu's are not meant to be soloable u add a Dev to a libby or PE and para u'll get dead ppu u add pe and termi to db and para'd ppu u get dead ppu.
This game is all about team work y don't u try using it before complaining on forums that some ppu's are over powered cus u can't solo them with your non-specialist weapons
What's your reasoning for that statement. Every class is vulnerable to normal damage, except PPUs that need to be stripped of their defences first.
Not only a 'few' PPUs able to withstand insane loads of damage... heh, not all the good PPUs come to these forums to brag, personally I can tell of many in Saturn who don't need to come here to boost their ego , and still are awesome. Anyway you don't need to be awesome, just need to be 'decent', know something about timing buffs and setup your resists without holes. A decent PPU won't die against any of those combos, not unless he stands still... and probably not even then.
Almost forgot the old excuse of teamwork. If this game was really about team work a PPU would not be able to survive without his team.
Originally posted by Sleawer
Almost forgot the old excuse of teamwork. If this game was really about team work a PPU would not be able to survive without his team.
They can't :p
Well not if the attackers know what they're doing.
You'd be surprised.
And you don't need to go far from this thread to find self-claiming PPUs that can survive against multiple targets when their teams are dead.
Lifewaster
22-03-04, 14:40
Originally posted by MrChumble
[B]
PPU is one class of 5, it makes logical sense that they should be about 1/5th of an effective OP war team. The reality is though that more = better. If you can manage a 50/50 PPU/attacker ratio you're pretty much unstoppable unless the enemy can manage the same.
PPU should be a support class, and one should be able to serve a team of five or so. Not make 5 people immortal, but effectively get them re-healed and buffed if they drop back from the fighting.
[/]
This is what I think also, One ppu should be enough for a team, 2 should be max in a full team of 9 players, any more SHOULD be overkill and waste of a damage dealer slot ..and it shouldnt require to be one of the top 5 ppus on pluto either, nor require the entire team to have trained endlesslly together nor require the entire team to communicate via ventrillo etc etc....
I really believe , all thats needed to solve the PPU problem is make it easier for "standard" PPUs (ie: non-100% psu use, non-5 slot spells, non-ventrillo, non-endless team practice, non-mc5 chips, non-uber con resist setups ) to effectively PPU a team .
2 standard PPUs should be a match for cannings for example.
Theres lotsa ways KK could fix this, group heals/S/D could be made to hit only party members, S/D could be given longer durations , etc.....
So we basically dumb down what the PPU does at an op fight, if one PPU can group heal 9 ppl, without needing lightning reflexes and voice-coms, then there is no need for more than one per team , and if there is more than one, well the team still only gets one heal running at a time, so its no real advantage having either multiple or Uber Ppus.
Ok so if you have NO ppu you are fuked, but as long as you have ONE ppu per team of 9, you now have a pretty equal chance.
Cant see how this wouldnt solve the probs...
Originally posted by Sleawer
Almost forgot the old excuse of teamwork. If this game was really about team work a PPU would not be able to survive without his team.
Oh great a ppu without his team thats one hell of a threat maybe he'll punch u to death. Remember u don't have to kill the ppu just kill anyone he rezzes and he'll soon get bored.
Originally posted by Candaman
Oh great a ppu without his team thats one hell of a threat maybe he'll punch u to death. Remember u don't have to kill the ppu just kill anyone he rezzes and he'll soon get bored.
However the problem is not when the team is dead. PPUs now act as damage walls, can take the damage instead their team... their role protects and enhances the team, but they don't pay the consequences for failing in their job.
It should be inverse, a relation of PPU supports and enhances the team, and in tradeoff the team takes damage out of the PPU and defend him.
I can't understand that part, can't understand what's with classes wanting a way to stay alive against the odds. You decided to fight, and in the case of the PPU you probably are the main reason for your team to put a decent fight... yet when you fail and your team dies, you want to escape?
Psyco Groupie
22-03-04, 14:50
ppus are still fine.
Originally posted by Lifewaster
This is what I think also, One ppu should be enough for a team, 2 should be max in a full team of 9 players, any more SHOULD be overkill and waste of a damage dealer slot ..and it shouldnt require to be one of the top 5 ppus on pluto either, nor require the entire team to have trained endlesslly together nor require the entire team to communicate via ventrillo etc etc....
I really believe , all thats needed to solve the PPU problem is make it easier for "standard" PPUs (ie: non-100% psu use, non-5 slot spells, non-ventrillo, non-endless team practice, non-mc5 chips, non-uber con resist setups ) to effectively PPU a team .
2 standard PPUs should be a match for cannings for example.
Theres lotsa ways KK could fix this, group heals/S/D could be made to hit only party members, S/D could be given longer durations , etc.....
So we basically dumb down what the PPU does at an op fight, if one PPU can group heal 9 ppl, without needing lightning reflexes and voice-coms, then there is no need for more than one per team , and if there is more than one, well the team still only gets one heal running at a time, so its no real advantage having either multiple or Uber Ppus.
Ok so if you have NO ppu you are fuked, but as long as you have ONE ppu per team of 9, you now have a pretty equal chance.
Cant see how this wouldnt solve the probs...
Dumbest fucking idea ever as well. Making a class less effective and easier to play for no damn reason.
Heres a hint. to be a good PPU you dont need 100% psi use. You dont need 5 slotted everything. Setup is nothing compared to the player skill behind that setup.
Why not give auto aim to all guns for people who have trouble aiming too?
PPUing is a skill practise you get good at it the same as any other class.
A class should not be nerfed to shit and back on the basis for is a few PPu's who are good. Oh and any ppu is killable, there defences are not godlike and can be broken. Team work means using the right team to kill ppu's no? rather than whining about them.
i never run away but also because when my teams dead all 13 attackers turn on me
That's how it should be.
If the PPU in a team, instead protected by self-defences, could be equally protected but by his team, then I don't think it would be a problem. The deciding factor would be the efficiency of the team, not the efficiency of the PPU.
At the moment all the stress load is over the PPU; he has to stay alive and keep others alive, while his group get the kills. So if the team fails, even if it's not always true, the blame is mainly for the PPU.
If the team had an effective way to protect the PPU, and the PPU to protect the team, the deciding factor in the fight would be down to the whole team. Then most likely PPUs could have some kind of effective offence in the situations they are without a team. Yes they could be killed solo, but they also could solo others.
All these discussions to nerf PPUs.
To tell you the truth, I'd be happy if we had another healer/buffer class besides the PPU. Medic and Tech Combat skills under intelligence, so people that need little weapon lore can effectively heal or shield others depending on their specs.
This I would do BEFORE nerfing anything.
Original monk
22-03-04, 15:27
Originally posted by Gestra
PPUing is a skill practise you get good at it the same as any other class.
then why are people always whining that ya choose ppu to be godlike and because ya have noskill (tm) at all ??
btw: i know why: cause they never played a decent ppu emselves :)
Psyco Groupie
22-03-04, 15:34
ppus are fine, so what if they are godlike ?
if they can keep their team remotely godlike you ve got a problem .. the only problem here is peoples skill ...
LEAVE PPUS ALONE NOW QUIETTTT
PPUs are the most vital char to have in an op war, and PPUs happen to be the only char in the game that help other chars rather than attacking other chars.
Correlation perhaps?
We need to clearly define the role of the PPU in the game, and then see if the player base even likes/wants that role to be found in the game.
I dunno, I would say give target based heals a 50% reduction on damage and that would be a hell of a good start imo.
Hmm sure a ppu has a huge impact on an op war.
the examples made here is a little wierd when you think about it.
20vs20 one ppu on one side. 3 on the other.. it's not at all sure the side with 3 ppus will win now is it?.. what if the one ppu on the first team is a really good one. If the 3 ppus in the other team is also great ppu's the fight can go on forever until someone makes a mistake. Most likely tho the team with only one ppu.
number fights apu/ppu combo vs 4 tanks. well again if the ppu is good and the apu has a brain and not only rely on the ppu it can be an extreemly hard task to kill them. But 4 smart tanks shooting hard at the same time on one apu can drop the apu even with buffs on.
Alot of times it still comes down to skills, tho a really skilled ppu can seem pretty unfair at times maby cause they can become almost unkillable even by good players..
but an extreemly good tank vs other pretty good whatever class can also be viewed as unbeatable in 1on1 fights and so on, maby im dumb and cant see the huge differance, the great tank/spy? ;)/pe/apu in 1on1 and even smaller skirmish situations can be unbeatable, a good ppu in whatever situation can be unbeatable, but he cant hurt you back either. I get the feeling that the more serious players dont actually "whine" about the ppu beeing unbeatable but the impact the ppu has on its team.
But Ive said it in so many other threads, test ppu "nerfs" on test server and I will try them out, there are as said before few but some very good ideas about trying to balance the ppu's impact on making the team unbeatable when the other team has no ppu arround.
baaaah I hate theese threads cause it might start out with a serious idea or serious comments and then angry ppu haters comes in and it becomes retarded, im affraid that the retard ideas as a couple of times before might lead to a change, and not the good ones, that would have made a differance
Originally posted by Candaman
Are u having trouble thinking scikar.
Let me put it simply u make it sound like the entire ppu class is overpowered where a nooby ppu that isn't very good will die as quick as a tank. You want to nerf the good ppu's but ur saying its the whole ppu class when its not its only a select few ppu's that have put time and effort into becoming that good.
Now u wanna nerf the whole class just because some ppu's are hard to kill not impossible but hard. You say ppu's are the deciding factor @ op wars does this mean u won't go to op wars without ppu's?
I have been to op fites with just pe's and spies u should try it because u know having a ppu is not a requirement but a luxury. I've seen sxr @ op wars without ppu's i've even seen shad when he was in pimp @ fites without ppu's jsut because half the server will not fite without a ppu that does not make them the deciding factor.
And you're acting like it takes an extremely good setup and very high skills to reach effective PPU defence, which isn't true. An average PPU with an average setup and only rank /50 or so can still outheal a solo attacker easily. Take it a small step higher and you can outheal 2 attackers. The good PPUs, who are not as rare as you would have everyone believe, there is at least one in every clan, can outheal a couple of attackers easily whilst also buffing a team mate.
The PPU is a requirement if you want to actually take the OP, it's not required if the other team doesn't have one but it certainly is if they do and you want to actually win the fight. I know SXR don't always fight with PPUs, and it's a serious downfall of theirs. When I was in FF I defended Gaba by myself against 5 of them, killing all 5. If they had a PPU I would have been parashocked the moment I stepped in the OP and promptly killed.
[edited violation of fourm rules][freya]
And no, I don't usually go to OP wars without PPUs. If the opposing team has no PPU, I'll be the first to step up and fight. If they do, then I know my team isn't going to win without one, assuming equal numbers. In equal numbers, that means I have to take out at least one of the enemies before I die. Put a holy buffed tank and holy heal him against an unbuffed tank, and the unbuffed tank will die. Or take 2 unbuffed tanks vs a holy buffed tank with holy heal - again the unbuffed tanks will lose. That is a fact, pulling some bullshit about 'oh but if the unbuffed tanks are skilled and the ppu is a noob' has nothing to do with the subject.
Now extend that:
Team A:
2 Tanks, 2 APUs, 1 PPU.
Team B:
2 Tanks, 3 APUs.
The guys in team 1 all have holy buffs, plus they can get holy heals, if everyone here is among the more skilled percentage of players then that PPU should be able to keep heals going on most of his team for most of the time.
The APUs in team B are essentially dead meat. It takes roughly 5 HLs to kill an unbuffed APU, and more like 10 to kill a holy buffed one with holy heal on. Leave holy heal out for the tanks, put 2 holy buffed tanks against 2 unbuffed tanks, the winners are clear. If the APUs on team B gang up on the PPU in team A, then team A's Tanks will be able to kill the APUs while they antibuff. It takes less than a clip of CS to kill an unbuffed APU. It takes about 3 to kill a holy buffed tank. You do the maths - APUs attacking a PPU are being attacked by Tanks, who are being attacked by other Tanks. The holy buffed tanks kill the APUs without dying, get healed by the PPU who now has no antibuff to worry about, and then you have 2 unbuffed tanks to take down easily.
If you really think the other team can win, prove it. Get crackheads or someone to help you. Have them pick any 5 man team with Pete as PPU, and then you pick any 5 you want as long as none are PPU. There is no way in hell you can win that, and that is exactly what I hate about PPUs.
less than 1 cs clip to drop an un buffed APU??????
wtf what planet do you live on i dont know a single apu that drops that quick
Originally posted by Scikar
[edited for consistancy
[edited violation of fourm rules][freya] just beacause i don't agree with ur ppu's are all overpowered when rank 50 or higher theory i talk crap [edited] seeing as most the people so far have agreed with me
If you really think the other team can win, prove it. Get crackheads or someone to help you. Have them pick any 5 man team with Pete as PPU, and then you pick any 5 you want as long as none are PPU. There is no way in hell you can win that, and that is exactly what I hate about PPUs.
Lets see so were going against one of the best ppu's on the server tell u what u pick 4 standard people and a standard ppu and put them against me on my pe SD tupac xcal and serve and u'll see who wins. Cus i can gauruntee unless its a good ppu then they won't win yes pete could keep all them alive but not so good ppu couldn't.
This is my point ur judging a entire class by a few players and actually ppu's that can stay alive through mutliple antibuffs dev moonie and what ever else are very few.
Originally posted by hinch
less than 1 cs clip to drop an un buffed APU??????
wtf what planet do you live on i dont know a single apu that drops that quick
yes you do know 1...s..................
:D
:angel:
mine doesnt count its got all resists in POR :)
and SD doesnt count either he never was very good without a zoneline or a ppu handy :)
Shadow Dancer
22-03-04, 21:29
Originally posted by hinch
and SD doesnt count either he never was very good without a zoneline or a ppu handy :)
:lol:
Doesn't matter what people say about my "skill'. I know the great achievements i have done in the past, and no comments will ever change that. Oh and anyone who wants to complain about my "zoning", can only do so if they never zoned or used stealth.
*hears crickets*
thought so
Originally posted by MrChumble
See the thing is I'm a normal average joe bloggs human, not 3l33t-c$kiddy|pr0@aol.com[UK2]
:lol:
Oh man.
Originally posted by MrChumble
The role of the PPU needs to be clearly defined -- I'd go with "Providing healing and support to a team" -- then the class needs to be setup to do that. If the PPUs role is defined to be "confer immortality to one teammate while laughing like a maniac as the others roast in hell" then the current neocron is spot on and we can end this discussion right now :rolleyes:
hahaha, excellent way of putting it.
Originally posted by hinch
i would say medocre at best and certainly be surprised if he could take out 4 tanks in real combat not in PP infact i'd go as far to say he couldnt take out another single apu in pure combat without hitting the zone faster than a bitch in heat.
:lol:
Whatever you say Hinch. I've taken out dozens of apus 1v1. Who cares?
APU vs APU is so fast I can barely tell which apu has more "skill". Anyways if a mediocre apu can take out the best fighters on the server, then OMG NERF APUS!!!!!!!11111111oneoneoneone :p
Originally posted by Sleawer
Anyway you don't need to be awesome, just need to be 'decent',
EXACTLY!
Their are probably 3 types of ppus IMO. The really bad ones, the decent ones, and the good ones.
Anyways I want to clarify my position. It really annoys the #*&$*#&$ out of me when people say that i only "whine" because ppus are too hard to kill or some BS. Find me one post(in the past 3 months) where I complained about ppus being too hard to kill. That's not even my frikkin focus. I don't care about that. Because honestly 95% of the ppus out there aren't that hard to kill with a little effort or teamwork with 1-2 other people.
I don't care if a ppu(usually last one standing) runs away and manages to GR. That doesn't bother me, he can't hurt anyone. Although alot of them talk smack when they do it. :rolleyes:
I've only focused on that fact that they have too much importance and influence in PvP. How many times do I have to say this???
Sexy Strych is right. PPUs are the only true support class in the game IMO. That is also part of the problem. It's not like you can take a spy healer/medic into an op battle or something. It kinda makes no sense that ppus are the only battlefield healers in the future. But oh well. :p
As for ppus being protected by their team. I've yet to hear an idea that would impress me or make me think ppus won't be shite if it was implemented. In a fast paced game like this where people run like the wind, there isn't really any "front lines" or "behind the lines" or stuff like that. So ppus, for the time being, need ubar defense.
Originally posted by Candaman
This is my point ur judging a entire class by a few players and actually ppu's that can stay alive through mutliple antibuffs dev moonie and what ever else are very few. [/B]
It's more than a few. There's at least one in behind every half decent clan on Saturn, and I would expect no less on Pluto.
I love how you keep saying that if the tanks are skilled and the PPU is a noob then the tanks will win. That doesn't prove PPUs aren't overpowered. You're saying exactly what hinch always tried to say - that it's OK if only 5 people on a server can take a class up to being uber because there's not many of them. So if KK made some resist and weapon changes, and say 5 tanks figured out how to tweak them properly, so we had 5 tanks with near PPU defence and their CSs did twice the damage a CS does now, that wouldn't be overpowered so long as only 5 of them did it?
I'm sorry but frankly I couldn't care less about Average Joe because I want a good fight which means fighting the best. So when fighting the best isn't balanced I want it sorted. Maybe you only ever fight against Average Joes or maybe you consider yourself one, but I care about fighting the elites.
Ooooh Ooooh my turn!
Cannings has a good point, one that is worth keeping in mind for ppu's and for any class really. Focusing on what the most skilled players are capable of with a class leaves out 50-75% of the members of that class. It's unfair for them to act as if every single member of their class is one of the uber skilled players. If you make the game balanced around the best, you leave every one else in the dust. What fun is a game in which only the elite few can have fun? Simple changes/reductions almost always end up moderately effecting the intended target, if at all, and mostly hurting innocent bystanders. The non pvp players, the new players, the non capped players, the average joe, they all take the brunt of most changes.
I tried to argue this back when everyone was rabid for hybrid's to be stomped. I played a 50/50 hybrid which was admitedly unbalanced, but I wasn't so drasticly unbalanced as the super hybrids. I also knew many other pretty average hybrids, there was nothing wrong with them. But because of the few super hybrids, popular opinion twisted it to every single hybrid being overpowered. So my character was rendered unviable and I had to go back to being a ppu. It wouldn't take much for the same to happen to ppu's.
That's not to say the class is fine and should be left alone, just that a solution should take everyone into account, not just the best.
I completely agree with Strych9, kk/the community needs to decide what exactly the role of a ppu is in Neocron. Once you've decided that, it's just a matter of doing it. PPU's have so many problems because we're really pretty ambiguous. We have lots of different roles with varying levels of importance. Some of our roles were thought of in context of turn based combat, so they don't translate too well in a fps based combat game. We need to decide exactly what a ppu is supposed to do in Neocron.
If, as mrchumble said, we're supposed to be team defensive support, then let us do that. Have our spells focus on buffing multiple friendlies at once. Give us a way to see team buff status. There's no reason a ppu's job has to be as difficult as it is. Most of our problems are game mechanics/flaws. If we're supposed to be clerics, then we'd focus on healing powers. We wouldn't have such incredible shelter/deflector, all our power would come from healing. Are we supposed to both support a team and ourselves? If not then give teamates a way to protect their ppu, such as a Tank shield or shared team damage.
I wonder if "balance" is even a valid concept while talking about NC. I never see anything the players do like an op attack ever 100% balanced - I spose then why should KK balance anything?
SD has fought one particular clan on PLuto for ages -- a clan of 100000000's of ppus and wont fight without em - so I understand ur hatred of the fact u have to have one around. But remember --- KK decided first month of retail to FORCE TEAMS - ppl said at the time its a RP concept (why should u do anything alone etc).
Since then ppl been hating it -- hating that u need a ppu coz the other dood has one. U cant get away from it coz the game has been designed to be that way. Its the same as rewarding specialisation - in the good ol days of Beta4 tanks could poke themselves/repair their stuff/hack wbs etc and still be completely viable to PvP but thats not a RP thing. KK WANTS u to be crippled unless u aare in a team with other players -- they told to everyone that very clearly. Thats why u are forced to need a ppu/ a repper/hacker etc.
IN Beta i was a tank mainly -- i fought sid all the time -- he was a hybrid. I dont even remember having a heal -- we were all low level compared to now but I used to use medikits to heal and I stood a chance simply coz of them. I remember outhealing his halos with medikits numerous times. In retail -- medikits were nerfed - I spose also part of the "u may never fight alone" concept.
So my question to u all -- are u not fighting the wrong war -- ie. kill/nerf PPUs? instead of asking KK -- Was forcing specialisation and teams a good idea?? Maybe we can go back to when other classes had a decent way of regaining health/can do more than one thing and dont ALWAYS have to have other types of players around ---- forcing teams might have worked with 1000's of other players as the adds say but with 100?
This became a nerf the ppu thread so back to the thread starter's topic -- shirkan 2 weeks ago - u had a quarter health and died to one ROG PE - u still got some work to do.
Does keep it in game mean anything to you zigzag do i come online and flame the fact that yesterday ur clan bout 5 ppu's and 10 attackers when we had 7 online no so plz don't start bitching at me ONOZ LOLLERSKATES JOO DIEDZORZ TO 1 RoG JOO TEH NUB!!!111
It wasn't just beta, it was like that a good ways into retail start. Tanks could solo just about any mob in the game. Even when ppu's first came out, we weren't necessary, just helpful. Then they made mobs a lot harder and made ppu's necessary. Oddly enough this was around the same time they screwed up our ranks, got rid of healing exp, and generaly pissed off the ppu's. They've repeated this trend every since. Making everyone dependant on a support class which almost noone wants to play is rather silly, but that's were we are now. Both ppu's and tradeskillers are in the same boat.
PS. Zig, No one except Monks used psi back then. PE's might have used a little, I'm not sure. The medkit was very capable of healing and was better then what a crahn heal could do back then. Plus you could stack multiple heals, couldn't you? I recall hitting several medkits and getting 3x the healing. I used to use medkits as a monk even, that in combination with my own healing spell was quite nice.
Yah I used to solo Grim Chasers easy with my pistol/droning/hacking/research spy back in the day. :lol:
Clownst0pper
23-03-04, 20:33
Must we recycle the same dribble threads, and dribble replies over and over?
Im going to start CUT/PASTE
Might as well o_O
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
Must we recycle the same dribble threads, and dribble replies over and over?
Im going to start CUT/PASTE
Might as well o_O
constructive and funny in the same post how clever of u
Clownst0pper
23-03-04, 20:58
constructive and funny in the same post how clever of u
Why thankyou.
I could honestly say the same for your thread.
Its been heard before, and half of your fixes would fuck up every class, and make a PPU's life the tinyest bit harder, but ruin everyone elses.
Id say unconstructive, and highly humerous to this whole thread. 8|
But then again, I just hit l337 :p
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.