View Full Version : Do you have skill ?
After reading these boards most days for a while now, you come to recognise a few things...
The main problem (imo) is that peeps keep on complaining that characters need nerfing, or they need boosting... And it get's boring... But above all, nine times out of 10, they are wrong.
A few examples.
1) Me and 2 other tanks get our asses handed to us by 1 Pistol Spy. Granted, we were already down to half health after being hit in the vehicle by a Revenge Drone (the KK type, if that's what it's called). Even so, 1 pistol spy takes all 3 of us down. You know why? Because he had skill. He didn't have an overpowered weapon - he was fast, and his shots were accurate.
2) I kill an APU and PE on my Melee Tank. Not because I am uber skilled, but because they couldn't fight worth shit.
3) I get killed by 1 APU - Why? Because he was more skilful than me
4) I kill another Melee tank - Guess why ?
You see the trend? I wouldn't even call a PPU overpowered, 'cos they can't do shit to hurt you on their own. Sure, they can cast a SC, but by the time they are cast (if it manages to cast) you are long gone.
Nerf PE's, Nerf APU's, Nerf Tanks... blah blah blah! It gets really dull because most of the time these threads are created by someone who has just lost to someone and automatically "OMG! A Spy beat me!!! They are overpowered!"... Bullshit. If you get your ass handed to you then get more practice at NF - check your resists - don't be afraid of a few loms.
Some people think that they should be able to just charge headlong into a fight and come out with hardly a scratch. Wake Up! If you pick on someone who can fight back, be prepared to accept the concequences. Think about why you lost.
Hell, the Spy that beat us 3 tanks, when we re-spawned back at the GR, the 1st thing I did was DM him and congratulate him for an excellent fight. I didn't bitch or whine...
I just think peeps need to realise why they are losing...
At this rate, every single class is going to have an arsenal of hugely powerful wepons, as KK try to compensate for all the cries of "Nerf" every 5 minutes. If a new weapon comes out that can take you down really fast, you have to look at your resists. I have seen a Spy in NF take 16 bursts from a CS - and it was because of his resist setup. Yet hit him with a PoB and he is down in seconds. Personally, I favour a good overall resist setup and not go for really high resists in any particular one, and hope that my speed will make me more awkward to target.
Anyway - I said my piece :D
yeah cant say im a big fan of the whiney [ edited for violation of the forum rules - flaming ] posters
little slip of the tounge there
Originally posted by GT_Rince
I have seen a Spy in NF take 16 bursts from a CS
o_O
Do tell.
But i do agree with what you say.
Originally posted by retr0n
o_O
Do tell.
But i do agree with what you say.
Kid Brainiac @ Uranus can take that many, maybe more.
Oh yeah, and Rince...
Couldnt agree more. well said.
amen rince =)
5 shiny stars :D
Originally posted by retr0n
o_O
Do tell.
But i do agree with what you say.
He has specced most of his CON into XRAY and had just a few points in others. If he got hit by fire, he was toast - literally :D
Originally posted by GT_Rince
He has specced most of his CON into XRAY and had just a few points in others. If he got hit by fire, he was toast - literally :D
u sure?
the spy would be retarded to spec ANYTHIN into X Ray, considering SPY PA adds 100+
I didn't have access to his account, so can only tell you what he told me.
my pistol spy setup has a better resists with his own shelter than any non ppu buffed tank could ever achieve.....except poison offcource
Jesterthegreat
18-03-04, 13:42
Originally posted by L0KI
u sure?
the spy would be retarded to spec ANYTHIN into X Ray, considering SPY PA adds 100+
i think my spy has +150 or +180 with bones / PA :D
yes... speccing XRAY is stupid...
speccing most CON into NRG would make more sense of course... O_o
:edit: @stig - so did mine... his health was an issue though :(
I only used that Spy as an example - I wanted to point out that before peeps cry nerf, they want to look at why. The only truely overpowered class I have ever seen were Hybrids. They were a shitload of fun, but almost impossible to take down. I have seen Hybrid vs Hybrid fights that got so boring I ended up going to lvl - lol
applejuice
18-03-04, 13:48
Originally posted by GT_Rince
I only used that Spy as an example - I wanted to point out that before peeps cry nerf, they want to look at why. The only truely overpowered class I have ever seen were Hybrids. They were a shitload of fun, but almost impossible to take down. I have seen Hybrid vs Hybrid fights that got so boring I ended up going to lvl - lol
hehe hybrids vs hybrid is the same as a ppu fighting a ppu :) atleast in the old days it was :)
edit: to answer the question of do you have skill directly:
no i dont have "skill" in the uber1337 meaning of the word, i do have experience and intuition wich saves me alot :)
Originally posted by GT_Rince
I only used that Spy as an example - I wanted to point out that before peeps cry nerf, they want to look at why. The only truely overpowered class I have ever seen were Hybrids. They were a shitload of fun, but almost impossible to take down. I have seen Hybrid vs Hybrid fights that got so boring I ended up going to lvl - lol
not true :p
there were only 3 hybrids on pluto that i couldnt beat with my hyb :p
Jesterthegreat
18-03-04, 13:53
Originally posted by GT_Rince
I only used that Spy as an example - I wanted to point out that before peeps cry nerf, they want to look at why. The only truely overpowered class I have ever seen were Hybrids. They were a shitload of fun, but almost impossible to take down. I have seen Hybrid vs Hybrid fights that got so boring I ended up going to lvl - lol
agreed. tank-o-cron was great fun... tanks werent overpowered... 90% of us had all body health, no resists O_o
tbh i am bored of havin to pop loms cos kk have had to change yet another weapon / item / stat / class.
IMO freeze does need to be toned down / removed... but thats just about all that needs doing. possibly a slight boost on lib... but then again if you have a shit hot aim there is no damage problem, it just seems to be hard to aim (for me - i did better with wyatt earp, pre-boost)
posibly all non rares should have a slight boost, it is so stupid that you need so called "rares" to PvP effectively. io mean come on... my APU took 11 damage from a 3 slot fully capped holy NRG beam O_o thats fuckin pointless PvP.
the only REAL PvP viable non rare is a TPC, and thats only due to RoF / aim (and is now rendered less use due to quicker aiming ravager)
actually i take it back... holy spells are usefull in PvP too O_o but thats it IMHO. the blacksun was good for a while, but as soon as kk found out people used a non-rare to PvP with, and rare != win, people stopped usin it. i assume it was nerfed in some way... its not likel people just stopped usin it
ok i think im done
NC Junkie
:edit:
Originally posted by applejuice
edit: to answer the question of do you have skill directly:
no i dont have "skill" in the uber1337 meaning of the word, i do have experience and intuition wich saves me alot :)
to answer the same question, i would consider myself quite skilled. i have only recently had a real PvP char and i have got a fair few people complementing his performance... and marveling at his uncappedness, yet his PvPness.
a few people know which char im talkin about, but it isnt, and won't be, publically known :D
Well, I think you're partially right Rince. But the logical conclusion to your argument is that hybrids weren't overpowered, just everyone who played them was skilled and clearly everyone who didn't was unskilled. o_O
[Eh, wrong thread, wrong time.. not enough drugs...]
Originally posted by .Cyl0n
not true :p
there were only 3 hybrids on pluto that i couldnt beat with my hyb :p
:D <3
I know what u mean hinch people think if they cannot solo a certain player that whole class should be nerfed and because some people have become so dependant on ppu's instead of solo play they think ppu's are overpowered. I personally think the game is pretty damn close to balance as it has ever been. U win u lose who gives a fuck it was fun and thats what counts (to most people)
A person i would like to point out who i have great respect for is Gabar on pluto a hell of a good sniper never malicious never bitches and in it for the fite if everyone was like him the game would be a lot more fun for everyone
Jesterthegreat
18-03-04, 14:01
Originally posted by Scikar
Well, I think you're partially right Rince. But the logical conclusion to your argument is that hybrids weren't overpowered, just everyone who played them was skilled and clearly everyone who didn't was unskilled. o_O
and if i tell you i like cheese logically i dont like anything else? o_O
hybrids were overpowered. that is a fact. would you deny that?
however... i dont think any other class could be considered overpowered. that is of course my opinion. in your opinion there may be overpowered classes... but thats not fact.
People get pissed when they die and cry nerf for whatever killed them - granted 75% of the time this is what they're telling themselves to avoid admitting bad performance on their part, and in turn.. stating it publicly on the forum in hope someone will agree with them.
But!
Some nerf whines are genuine you know..
When a particular item doesn't require much skill to use, and gives great results in most situations (i.e Dev, Para) it needs _balancing_
As for skill.. I'd say I got skill, people tell me I got skill.. i've had great performances, not so great performances..
i'm a bit like England in the world cup.. you never know wtf to expect :lol:
world cup?
um... soccer/football right?
People never tell me I have skill, even after I hand their collective asses to them on a silver platter, complete with a silk napkin, silver utensils and a butler. :(
Jesterthegreat
18-03-04, 14:06
Originally posted by Radamez
People get pissed when they die and cry nerf for whatever killed them - granted 75% of the time this is what they're telling themselves to avoid admitting bad performance on their part, and in turn.. stating it publicly on the forum in hope someone will agree with them.
But!
Some nerf whines are genuine you know..
When a particular item doesn't require much skill to use, and gives great results in most situations (i.e Dev, Para) it needs _balancing_
As for skill.. I'd say I got skill, people tell me I got skill.. i've had great performances, not so great performances..
i'm a bit like England in the world cup.. you never know wtf to expect :lol:
agreed... however the dev was nerfed too much, its lower TL than CS so less damage makes sense... however the stack sucks, and anyone with resists is barely harmed by it. before you say "your shit and dont hit" i have a 4 slot with capped dmg, and i tried on people staying still.
i think dev should be an advantage in some situations, at the moment there is no point using one (unless someone has all CON points in NRG resist...) other than shooting someone on low health as they zone (for the stack and death in new zone)
Keep on topic damnit - not interested football in this thread :p
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
and if i tell you i like cheese logically i dont like anything else? o_O
hybrids were overpowered. that is a fact. would you deny that?
however... i dont think any other class could be considered overpowered. that is of course my opinion. in your opinion there may be overpowered classes... but thats not fact.
The hybrids of old were absolutely no doubt about it overpowered. However, just ask cyl0n and hinch right here, they didn't admit it straight off, they merely told everyone that they had skills, and if you couldn't kill them it wasn't because they were overpowered, just that you sucked. :rolleyes:
And now here we are, all the PPUs get together and scratch each other's backs, "We're not overpowered, we're not too important, everything's balanced."
I do agree to an extent though. The game is balanced for the most part. Droners are more viable than ever, PPU+APU isn't necessarily the best, also PPU+Tank isn't necessarily the best either. I still think PPUs are overimportant (note not necessarily overpowered), but I think there have been enough ideas to fix that now, and the matter is in KK's hands more than ours. I certainly don't want to go in the direction of keeping PPUs overimportant but making them utterly infuriating to play, but meh, I posted ideas that wouldn't do that and they were rejected, maybe the experienced PPUs could come up with something reasonable? If not they deserve whatever KK gives them IMO.
Originally posted by Varaem
world cup?
um... soccer/football right?
People never tell me I have skill, even after I hand their collective asses to them on a silver platter, complete with a silk napkin, silver utensils and a butler. :(
Football yes, the round one :p
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
agreed... however the dev was nerfed too much, its lower TL than CS so less damage makes sense... however the stack sucks, and anyone with resists is barely harmed by it. before you say "your shit and dont hit" i have a 4 slot with capped dmg, and i tried on people staying still.
i think dev should be an advantage in some situations, at the moment there is no point using one (unless someone has all CON points in NRG resist...) other than shooting someone on low health as they zone (for the stack and death in new zone)
Well yes, i was never in favor of it being nerfed to hell.. it's limited range should give a good damage bonus, but before it was just insane. As for para, let's not even go there..
whoops, should have edited my post instead of replying again :rolleyes:
I agree completely.
I've always been fairly happy with every class I've played and suddenly they get changed. I can never understand why....
I win 1 on 1fights, I lose 1 on 1fights. Class isn't important. Its the person playing it.
I'm reasonable but not great, it all comes with practice. I think the problem is a lot of people expect to be able to start playing a new class. Powerlevel up. Get all the popular rares of the moment and then win every fight. Its not gonna happen.
However good you think you are, someone will be able to beat you.
Edit:
I agree dev is MAYBE a bit underpowered now (only come up against one since patch), my PE with no poison resist had no problem with a dev tank last night and I didn't even have to pop antidote. I think that may be partly down to the tank using it though :p
The thing with dev is with most classes you really need to take out their legs with another weapon, then you can stay close enough to hit them with dev.
Jesterthegreat
18-03-04, 14:13
Originally posted by Scikar
The hybrids of old were absolutely no doubt about it overpowered. However, just ask cyl0n and hinch right here, they didn't admit it straight off, they merely told everyone that they had skills, and if you couldn't kill them it wasn't because they were overpowered, just that you sucked. :rolleyes:
And now here we are, all the PPUs get together and scratch each other's backs, "We're not overpowered, we're not too important, everything's balanced."
I do agree to an extent though. The game is balanced for the most part. Droners are more viable than ever, PPU+APU isn't necessarily the best, also PPU+Tank isn't necessarily the best either. I still think PPUs are overimportant (note not necessarily overpowered), but I think there have been enough ideas to fix that now, and the matter is in KK's hands more than ours. I certainly don't want to go in the direction of keeping PPUs overimportant but making them utterly infuriating to play, but meh, I posted ideas that wouldn't do that and they were rejected, maybe the experienced PPUs could come up with something reasonable? If not they deserve whatever KK gives them IMO.
i think the phrase is "advantage, not necessity". thats what PPU's should be.
you shouldnt need to counter a ppu with a ppu of your own. it should give the ppu + team an edge... but not a "we stop all your team from moving and outheal your damage" edge O_o
i dont think they are overpowered. i think no one is overpowered.
i am loving NC as is... on the PPU subject i think rework heals like s/d (less healing on other people - self cast>ppu cast) and remove / LOWER freeze from all para's
Originally posted by applejuice
hehe hybrids vs hybrid is the same as a ppu fighting a ppu :) atleast in the old days it was :)
edit: to answer the question of do you have skill directly:
no i dont have "skill" in the uber1337 meaning of the word, i do have experience and intuition wich saves me alot :)
not true there was only 2 hybrids on jupi i never beat
one was overcapped on his cons and the other was just better than me luckily both were in my clan
Exactly. Like I said, not necessarily overpowered, just overimportant. Due to the lack of suggestions supported by the PPUs in this community to solve this though, KK are doing things their own way which seems to be make other classes a necessity to kill PPUs, and make PPUs excruciatingly annoying to play in the process. And until someone comes up with a better idea they'll continue doing that.
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
i am loving NC as is... on the PPU subject i think rework heals like s/d (less healing on other people - self cast>ppu cast) and remove / LOWER freeze from all para's
I think they should just remove s/d from foreign cast... that'd make things so much better. Leaving heals as they are is fine I think. Anyway, yeah, skills has more to do with winning than class, although class plays a large part.
I've beat apu/ppu and tank/ppu teams frequently ... me as a PE. It's hard, but you can outdamage holy heal with a judge. :)
Originally posted by Scikar
The hybrids of old were absolutely no doubt about it overpowered. However, just ask cyl0n and hinch right here, they didn't admit it straight off, they merely told everyone that they had skills, and if you couldn't kill them it wasn't because they were overpowered, just that you sucked. :rolleyes:
And now here we are, all the PPUs get together and scratch each other's backs, "We're not overpowered, we're not too important, everything's balanced."
you still dont have a clue scikar... how often do i have to tell you that i KNEW that hybris were overpowerd and i HATE pure monks and i think BOTH of em are OVERPOWERD ?
just because i didnt post it here in the forum back then it means that i didnt know my class was overpowerd ?!
i`m really gettin tired of you not reading / understanding what im saying.. im posting this like the 50th time at least now...
back then i talked with some GMs and alot of other people about hybrids... i also made the "shelter bug" public in telling polarity about it.. if you remember that was the MAIN hybrid nerf back then.
and yes playing a hybrid needed ALOT of skill.. ALOT more than playing any other class which is viable right now including ppus and snipers....
ive seen alot of hybrids popping up on pluto back then and they all were shit...yes you could fucking solo em with a cs tank .. NP
there were only around 10 truelly overpowerd hybrids period
also alot of the top ppus seem to agree with the no sd ppu thing and stuff like that...
sorry but.. are you blind or just ignorant ?
and now before you reply.. read, think and understand what i said
/€ typo
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
i think the phrase is "advantage, not necessity". thats what PPU's should be.
you shouldnt need to counter a ppu with a ppu of your own. it should give the ppu + team an edge... but not a "we stop all your team from moving and outheal your damage" edge O_o
i dont think they are overpowered. i think no one is overpowered.
i am loving NC as is... on the PPU subject i think rework heals like s/d (less healing on other people - self cast>ppu cast) and remove / LOWER freeze from all para's
Last week I went to a op fite against a FA clan our attackers were Me a PE and 2 Spies and they had a ppu there was no need to call in a ppu for ourselves or even a apu we could kill who ever he rezzed and in the mean time hammer him and in the end we killed him on our own. Peoples dependance is the key not the role the ppu/apu plays
Jesterthegreat
18-03-04, 14:20
s/d is what... 30% less effective on others? (i dont know the %) i think making the heal the same would help... and make the para a hinderance... but not make it freeze you and glue you to the ground o_O
Jesterthegreat
18-03-04, 14:24
Originally posted by Varaem
50%
there ya go... holy heal bein 50% as efficiant would be an advantage... but not certain life (the oppisite of certain death?) :)
Originally posted by .Cyl0n
you still dont have a clue scikar... how often do i have to tell you that i KNEW that hybris were overpowerd and i HATE pure monks and i think BOTH of em are OVERPOWERD ?
just because i didnt post it here in the forum back then it means that i didnt know my class was overpowerd ?!
i`m really gettin tired of you not reading / understanding what im saying.. im posting this like the 50th time at least now...
back then i talked with some GMs and alot of other people about hybrids... i also made the "shelter bug" public in telling polarity about it.. if you remember that was the MAIN hybrid nerf back then.
and yes playing a hybrid needed ALOT of skill.. ALOT more than playing any other class which is viable right now including ppus and snipers....
ive seen alot of hybrids popping up on pluto back then and they all were shit...yes you could fucking solo em with a cs tank .. NP
there were only around 10 truelly overpowerd hybrids period
also alot of the top ppus seem to agree with the no sd ppu thing and stuff like that...
sorry but.. are you blind or just ignorant ?
and now before you reply.. read, think and understand it
On the contrary, I understand completely. Simple fact is, you lied, because you wanted to keep your hybrid as it was for as long as possible.
Overpowered is a description of a class, not a player. More accurately, hybrids were overpowered, but there were only a select few players who knew how to really take advantage of it.
And don't give me bullshit about PPUs agreeing with suggestions now. The self cast SD idea has at best 50% support, if that. And the only reason anything gets any support is because it's at least better than KK's plans for PPUs. You covered up being overpowered through deceit - remember hinch claiming to take 100 damage from a Moon Striker rocket? And you've barely changed since.
Dargeshaad
18-03-04, 14:26
Just make PSI Shield work as it did a year ago :D
I don't think nerfing just holy heal would work... what about blessed heal? blessed heal on others would be just as effective as holy heal on others if blessed wasn't nerfed. Then same with tl3 heal. If tl3 was crap, then that makes tl3ing ppus almost asking to happen...
Guys - please don't get this thread closed by arguing / flaming.
I want this to be a discussion about skills / resists rather than old classes that either were / weren't overpowered.
Ta :)
Originally posted by Dargeshaad
Just make PSI Shield work as it did a year ago :D
Psi shield works the same as a year ago. Psi boosters don't work the same. Psi shield was self-cast only for longer than a year I think.
Jesterthegreat
18-03-04, 14:29
Originally posted by Varaem
I don't think nerfing just holy heal would work... what about blessed heal? blessed heal on others would be just as effective as holy heal on others if blessed wasn't nerfed. Then same with tl3 heal. If tl3 was crap, then that makes tl3ing ppus almost asking to happen...
i actually meant all heals... i was just pointing out having a 50% effective holy heal is still better than a tl 3 heal (i assume O_o)
and as for psi sheild... tl 3 heal + psi shield = dead ppu for sure heh... i think thats prolly not the best move :p
even when people didnt use it as an offensive spell, it was shit lol
No.. psishield was a good spell when psiboosters instantly regenned mana.
Psyco Groupie
18-03-04, 14:31
My tank is now speced to cap resists with a haz3 to give him a better con setup ... so hes now less useful for dueling and a more op fight / fight with a ppu char ... seeing as ive got plenty of other chars t play this doesnt really bother me since theres never any small scale op fights on uranus .. and theres always ognna be a ppu nearby
As for skill .. yep some people have it some dont, some people compensate by using the most powerful weap of the time :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
As for skill .. yep some people have it some dont, some people compensate by using the most powerful weap of the time :rolleyes:
Some people have skill and use the most powerful weap of the time... :mad:
Psyco Groupie
18-03-04, 14:36
Originally posted by Varaem
Some people have skill and use the most powerful weap of the time... :mad:
Yeah then your setup is truely tested :lol:
Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
Yeah then your setup is truely tested :lol:
That's when people cry "nerf teh (insert class here)"
Originally posted by Scikar
On the contrary, I understand completely. Simple fact is, you lied, because you wanted to keep your hybrid as it was for as long as possible.
Overpowered is a description of a class, not a player. More accurately, hybrids were overpowered, but there were only a select few players who knew how to really take advantage of it.
And don't give me bullshit about PPUs agreeing with suggestions now. The self cast SD idea has at best 50% support, if that. And the only reason anything gets any support is because it's at least better than KK's plans for PPUs. You covered up being overpowered through deceit - remember hinch claiming to take 100 damage from a Moon Striker rocket? And you've barely changed since.
dude are you joking now ?
how the fuck did i lie ?!
i said exactly what you said... yes hybrids as a class had the potential to get overpowerd.. but only a few used it...
also i`m not the community... i have my own mind and i`m all for that change.. same with pete and other top ppus ...
if some noobs i never saw ingame say no to that because they`re scared to loose their ppu on thier ass its my fault ?
and i`m the one to blame now ? i`m the ignorant fool now because this community consists 75 % of lamers ?
yet still i`m all for that change to NERF PPUS ?
sorry rince...but that shit is really gettin on my nerves..:o
scikar stop hating ...
One on one I'm fairly good. Usually win about 3/5 of the fights I get into. Not the uber pking god certain people claim themselves to be.
Op wars I do really good provided I can target the enemy (which is hard in certain fights where you have 30 people going at it), have proper buffs, and don't get too cocky and run right into an attack like a dumbass. ;)
leave my fookin ppu alone just because there are a FEW number who can stay alive against big odd and thats a very FEW who's heads i won't inflate rite now (cus cy's head is big enough) that means the class is overpowered WTF is playing a char well when all u get for it is a big fat nerf getting a fooking clue.
/me is sorry too rince
Jesterthegreat
18-03-04, 14:45
Originally posted by Candaman
leave my fookin ppu alone just because there are a FEW number who can stay alive against big odd and thats a very FEW who's heads i won't inflate rite now (cus cy's head is big enough) that means the class is overpowered WTF is playing a char well when all u get for it is a big fat nerf getting a fooking clue.
/me is sorry too rince
thats great... but the more the comunity whine the more likely changes are...
and i suggest the PPU's get together and find a viable change, which means PPU's are still wanted. cos KK don't do "small" changes
Next person to go off topic is going to feel the blunt end of my hob-nail boot up their ass :p
Scikar - let it drop please. I don't want you getting this thread closed by causing arguements.
meh right now i wouldnt say im that skilled so i doubt, still suffering from the playing to many chars/lomming to much syndrome so aint pvpd much of late.
normally i would say im decent, i mean i win a lot more than i lose, took on 2 pistol Pes at once other day and beat them both without having to zone.
in that case was i skilled? or they just bad? or did i have luck?
bit of each proberbly.
cos theres only a small population in this game you are proberbly fighting the same people quite often, and if your getting your ass handed to you time after time by the same group of umm say apus, then yeah your gonna say nerf overpowered etc.
some times it hard to say if something is about skill or overpowered, i mean it was plainly obvious with the hybrids, i remember plugging soulcutter with gat/cs'/moony and doing nothing to him, when you see that you know its a plain case of overpowerdness.
i dont think theres no much of the overpowered class going on right now, i mean devs been nerfed so cant say tanks are overpowered, PEs still have there stealth, but still able to be killed so its nothing major.
if your getting killed, its either you lack skill or *insert your usual excuse for getting beat here*
Originally posted by Candaman
leave my fookin ppu alone just because there are a FEW number who can stay alive against big odd and thats a very FEW who's heads i won't inflate rite now (cus cy's head is big enough) that means the class is overpowered WTF is playing a char well when all u get for it is a big fat nerf getting a fooking clue.
/me is sorry too rince
lol good job im a really BAD ppu i STILL go for the HL to kill people its not fair i had skill as a hybrid i supported my self only and perhaps one or 2 others but concentrated on being a killer my self
as a ppu im shocking i just dont know what to do in combat everyone ALWAYS has a heal and a shelt/deflect running on them when im around i never miss a second but thats about as far as i can go. i think its so boring i just cant be arsed anymore
im not a bad apu IF i have a good ppu who can keep me alive cy is normally quite good at it :)
hinch go back to hybrid if you dont like ppu there is still good hybrids out there
The difference between player skills is what makes the classes balanced, so unless there is a class with an special exploitability (like hybrids were etc...) the game might seem balanced.
The logic is good, and the argument behind it is true. However this logic still does not mean that we cannot have tweaks, or ask for some loving to our classes :p I'm against nerfing for the sake of weakening a class, at the moment there isn't a class with strictly 'extra' power.
Regarding the PPU subject.... I think that the class is unbalanced, not overpowered. They could be more in the line of other classes, and have offence with normal defence, while still keeping their role as it is. Or other classes could get important roles, or share importance with the PPU, so we eliminate that necessity.
Single situations doesn't matter when it comes to judge a class, I'm sure there are situations where the enemy PPU screwed up, is not coordinated with his team, he doesn't have a clue of how to play the class yet, or you are just much more skill than him.
At last this argument also can be seen from the other side. MANY simple tweaks towards classes, that even could be good for them, are considered as nerfs even before reading more than the tittle of the thread. There is an extremist mentality around these forums in both senses... sure you have people asking for nerfs as soon as they are killed in-game, but there is also people with legitimate ideas that get flamed without even been given a chance.
To me basically NERF is weaken without giving back; balance is take away from here and give out there. There is a significant difference... this is relative tho, as when you look at all classes, balance taking and giving not necessarily happen in the same class.
Originally posted by ezza
hinch go back to hybrid if you dont like ppu there is still good hybrids out there
i have been very tempted to do so holy fire halo lvl and blessed stuff but im just not sure i will miss teh HL
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
thats great... but the more the comunity whine the more likely changes are...
and i suggest the PPU's get together and find a viable change, which means PPU's are still wanted. cos KK don't do "small" changes
What changes are needed? Heavy weapons got a boost monks can't spec super poison resist so a tank can chase off a ppu. Pierce / force weapons got a boost so low tech pe's/spies can do dmg. Executioner hurts like a bitch even when buffed so theres high tec spies. apu's hl now hurts through buffs and HAB. Spirit modded SH's. Drones causing anti heal and drilling with a gat drone which is as good as impossible to target and then doing a shit load of dmg with kami drones all these drones almost being able to outheal HL. All of this is going against a ppu and u want more nerfs?
Originally posted by .Cyl0n
dude are you joking now ?
how the fuck did i lie ?!
i said exactly what you said... yes hybrids as a class had the potential to get overpowerd.. but only a few used it...
also i`m not the community... i have my own mind and i`m all for that change.. same with pete and other top ppus ...
if some noobs i never saw ingame say no to that because they`re scared to loose their ppu on thier ass its my fault ?
and i`m the one to blame now ? i`m the ignorant fool now because this community consists 75 % of lamers ?
yet still i`m all for that change to NERF PPUS ?
sorry rince...but that shit is really gettin on my nerves..:o
scikar stop hating ...
You don't lie about it now. I can't remember anything you specifically said maybe you didn't, but hinch certainly did try to convince everyone that he was regularly killed by solo tanks with Moon Strikers, etc. I'll leave it at that.
Did I say I blame you that there's no support for good ideas? No. But it is a problem that PPUs in general can't agree on them, like you just said. I said nothing more than that. The problem, like I said earlier, is that none of you have started your own threads yet. The only threads about PPUs, started by PPUs, are ones by said lamers trying to say everything's OK. If you, or Carinth, or Pete, or Psycho Killa started a thread, saying THIS will work for PPUs without breaking them, then you'd get all the support you need and KK would do it. But nobody does, all of you just agree with someone else's idea and post in other threads. That's all well and good but it will never change anything, it won't get the attention from KK that it needs.
I don't hate you, I just hate people lying. I apologise if I've got you wrong on that.
/Sorry Rince, hopefully this will stop the argument *crosses fingers*
Originally posted by hinch
lol good job im a really BAD ppu i STILL go for the HL to kill people its not fair i had skill as a hybrid i supported my self only and perhaps one or 2 others but concentrated on being a killer my self
as a ppu im shocking i just dont know what to do in combat everyone ALWAYS has a heal and a shelt/deflect running on them when im around i never miss a second but thats about as far as i can go. i think its so boring i just cant be arsed anymore
im not a bad apu IF i have a good ppu who can keep me alive cy is normally quite good at it :)
When i cap my apu we'll just swap roles for a bit i'll ppu u can apu i don't mind
I have a hybrid setup in mind... dude I'm scared :p and sooo tempted to go to it.
Originally posted by Candaman
When i cap my apu we'll just swap roles for a bit i'll ppu u can apu i don't mind
can do if you like but i think you'll hate my monk :) its a bastard to play i use a odd setup to say the least :)
its okay hinch i can make anyone uber
at least you'll be able to runcast :)
Originally posted by Scikar
You don't lie about it now. I can't remember anything you specifically said maybe you didn't, but hinch certainly did try to convince everyone that he was regularly killed by solo tanks with Moon Strikers, etc. I'll leave it at that.
Did I say I blame you that there's no support for good ideas? No. But it is a problem that PPUs in general can't agree on them, like you just said. I said nothing more than that. The problem, like I said earlier, is that none of you have started your own threads yet. The only threads about PPUs, started by PPUs, are ones by said lamers trying to say everything's OK. If you, or Carinth, or Pete, or Psycho Killa started a thread, saying THIS will work for PPUs without breaking them, then you'd get all the support you need and KK would do it. But nobody does, all of you just agree with someone else's idea and post in other threads. That's all well and good but it will never change anything, it won't get the attention from KK that it needs.
I don't hate you, I just hate people lying. I apologise if I've got you wrong on that.
/Sorry Rince, hopefully this will stop the argument *crosses fingers*
uh okay i`m not hinch so i dont know what he said back then...but thats ok with me hehe
but personally if you want to know why i dont start a thread about ppus myself.... its about my english ;)
if i start a thread i want to argue alot and try to convince people but with my english... argueing and rhetoric ( sp ? ) isnt good enough for that :p
anyway i guess we can leave it at this and stop killing rincey`s thread :)
Originally posted by .Cyl0n
anyway i guess we can leave it at this and stop killing rincey`s thread :)
Yay \o/ :D
i used to have skill, i dont anymore tho :(
applejuice
18-03-04, 15:02
Originally posted by hinch
i have been very tempted to do so holy fire halo lvl and blessed stuff but im just not sure i will miss teh HL
ya mean a holy fire halo and the full blessed range ? im not sure ya will get that far ... maybe with switching PA's and stuff ... not like constantly switching armours is that fun ..
maybe with others giving ya a psicombatboost i dunno ... but me being a hybrid with the full blessed line i cant even use a regular firehalo ... or yeah ... but with 0 natural ppw then ... so mayour gimpage :/
anyway: gimme some more info :)
ive not looked at the new spell reqs in details yet so im just guessing in the dark
when i get net access back ill sit and work something out
ds+core+exp3+exp2 will be imps for max ppw
and possiably pa switching will be required also or spec to rely on a psi combat 3 but not sure
Originally posted by hinch
ive not looked at the new spell reqs in details yet so im just guessing in the dark
when i get net access back ill sit and work something out
ds+core+exp3+exp2 will be imps for max ppw
and possiably pa switching will be required also or spec to rely on a psi combat 3 but not sure
Blessed shelter is 121 PPU
Holy Enr Halo is 118 APU
They've lowered it a bit.. I think you'll get a PPW of 97 now (with ds+core+exp2+exp3), if you use the above.
97 ppw with all int in psu should give a fairly large mana pool too but energy halo is quite bad as most people have plenty of energy protection to compensate especially pe's fire would be the preferred option perhaps a capped normal fire halo wit han offensive amount of ppw
Jesterthegreat
18-03-04, 15:13
Originally posted by Candaman
What changes are needed? Heavy weapons got a boost monks can't spec super poison resist so a tank can chase off a ppu. Pierce / force weapons got a boost so low tech pe's/spies can do dmg. Executioner hurts like a bitch even when buffed so theres high tec spies. apu's hl now hurts through buffs and HAB. Spirit modded SH's. Drones causing anti heal and drilling with a gat drone which is as good as impossible to target and then doing a shit load of dmg with kami drones all these drones almost being able to outheal HL. All of this is going against a ppu and u want more nerfs?
no all of this is going against everyone
you think all these weapon boosts you pointed out didn't affect other classes? im not saying make them useless. im not saying make then do nothing PvP. all im saying is 90% of the time if the enemy has a ppu and you dont youyr fucked. thats not the way it should be. all of my chars use self buffs.
i only have 2 combat chars - a tank and a droner. the droner doesnt have any buffs atm cos i just finished lommin and i havent even sorted him out a heal yet (dont ask)
sorry for the delay... wet for a ciggie and lost my train of thought lol
Originally posted by Sleawer
I have a hybrid setup in mind... dude I'm scared :p and sooo tempted to go to it. go for it, im leveling my nibbish hybrid, i missed the old days of fun with hybrids
Psyco Groupie
18-03-04, 15:18
PPU's are fine, holy heal is fine - two diff chars and their ppus will fight for a while to kill either attacker and/or the ppu .. this is balance imo ... fights last longer fun is increased ... if you dont like holy heal tl3 them
Jesterthegreat
18-03-04, 15:24
Originally posted by ezza
go for it, im leveling my nibbish hybrid, i missed the old days of fun with hybrids
same here. i rolled a hybrid last night. i havent rolled it cos they are invinsible... cos they just arent anymore. i rolled it to try a new class.
tbh i deleted my PE cos i was bored, then bein killed while gr'ing into CRP to cave got me pissed off and i just deleted him, imps / weapons / money and all lol.
fortunatly he had no rarees and little money anyway though.
still. yeah. i got a wee hybrid which im playin for a laugh. at 0/2 i could solo aggies without using the "cant be hit" spot thats been in since retail launched O_o
1. Its funny Rince started this, cause one of his homies started that thread the other day about how overpowered the Revenge drone was because he got hit by one, without even really knowing all of the circumstances involved with using one. :)
2. Please stop saying "all PPUs" or "PPUs" do whatever. Some PPUs are not walking around saying "life is grand, dont change a thing." Please at least say "some" or "most" or "the vocal majority of" PPUs.
3. "all im saying is 90% of the time if the enemy has a ppu and you dont your fucked. thats not the way it should be."
What % of the time should that be the case, if 90% is too much?
If it SHOULD be that it doesnt matter if the enemy has a ppu and you dont... then just remove the PPU class from the game.
Originally posted by GT_Rince
1) Me and 2 other tanks get our asses handed to us by 1 Pistol Spy. Granted, we were already down to half health after being hit in the vehicle by a Revenge Drone (the KK type, if that's what it's called). Even so, 1 pistol spy takes all 3 of us down. You know why? Because he had skill. He didn't have an overpowered weapon - he was fast, and his shots were accurate.
go zane!! too bad he dont have a ppu anymore :((
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
same here. i rolled a hybrid last night. i havent rolled it cos they are invinsible... cos they just arent anymore. i rolled it to try a new class.
tbh i deleted my PE cos i was bored, then bein killed while gr'ing into CRP to cave got me pissed off and i just deleted him, imps / weapons / money and all lol.
fortunatly he had no rarees and little money anyway though.
still. yeah. i got a wee hybrid which im playin for a laugh. at 0/2 i could solo aggies without using the "cant be hit" spot thats been in since retail launched O_o hehe yeah its kinda fun.
ive gone for the leveling as a hybrid, rather than apu then lom, its so easy, i can fight terrormaulers, doomreapers and giant raptors without health lose :lol:
Originally posted by Strych9
1. Its funny Rince started this, cause one of his homies started that thread the other day about how overpowered the Revenge drone was because he got hit by one, without even really knowing all of the circumstances involved with using one. :)
2. Please stop saying "all PPUs" or "PPUs" do whatever. Some PPUs are not walking around saying "life is grand, dont change a thing." Please at least say "some" or "most" or "the vocal majority of" PPUs.
3. "all im saying is 90% of the time if the enemy has a ppu and you dont your fucked. thats not the way it should be."
What % of the time should that be the case, if 90% is too much?
If it SHOULD be that it doesnt matter if the enemy has a ppu and you dont... then just remove the PPU class from the game.
And most of the time if they have two tanks and ur on ur own ur fucked just cus its a ppu doesn't change the fact ur gonna die or are u overpowered where u can beat two tanks or two apu's or two pe's or two spies?
Originally posted by ezza
hehe yeah its kinda fun.
ive gone for the leveling as a hybrid, rather than apu then lom, its so easy, i can fight terrormaulers, doomreapers and giant raptors without health lose :lol: For those of you starting hybrids from scratch- how far along are you?
I tried one after the spell req changes, and it was a pain in the ass overall.
Psi skill point management was actually more like micromanagement. Never was there a time you could just throw a point in a skill- you hade to map it out each level. It wasnt bad til you hit level 40 or so spells, and the reqs take a huge jump.
Worst of all though damage was utter poop. Pure APUs outdamaged me with MUCH lower TL spells.
I have levelled PPUs and APUs recently too, and I find both considerable easier than a hybrid.
I'm sorry but I completely disagree, yes I like to whine and so do alot of people, but alot of us do not whine just because we are beaten by a skilled player alot of skilled players whine too (e.g xantor about pistols being too good). I for one do not because I have died which is rare outside of NF, but there are things people could notice which have absolutely nothing to do with skill.
A yes the variable.. resist setup, who cares about resists if everyone had shield and holy heal in op fight, and it just becomes who has the biggest blaster can't you see why we whine about foreign cast s/d to make the game more skill based then number based.
Neocron is far less skilled base then you think yes exceptions do happen from time to time, but generally 1 pistol spy does not own 3 tanks...
I believe there are times when true skill shines through, but there are also many times when something that has nothing to do with skill at all and we recognise these and know they are wrong, the things that have nothing to do with skills should be sorted on the boards and by developers which is why these boards exist.
Rifles are underpowered, and even kid brainiac the great rifle spy himself said it. Does my opinion of rifles are underpowered mean I suck? I'm an average player I may suck to many of you sharp shooters, but I should have just as good base chance, apart from the few exceptions who shines out above all the problems of the class in Rifle PEs case noone at all.
If this game is so skill based, as you describe then why do MANY PEOPLE flock to the best class/setup available surely it only means that somewhere out there is something that is agreed to be a better setup, balance will never be achieved in any game, but don't diss those of us who are trying to voice or frustrations of many on using a class the majority doesn't because it is "underpowered" where we lose not because of skill but because the game made us so..
You think you can make the game and these boards better by whinig agaisnt the whiners, then making yourself a hero out of it?
Jesterthegreat
18-03-04, 15:39
Originally posted by Strych9
1. Its funny Rince started this, cause one of his homies started that thread the other day about how overpowered the Revenge drone was because he got hit by one, without even really knowing all of the circumstances involved with using one. :)
2. Please stop saying "all PPUs" or "PPUs" do whatever. Some PPUs are not walking around saying "life is grand, dont change a thing." Please at least say "some" or "most" or "the vocal majority of" PPUs.
3. "all im saying is 90% of the time if the enemy has a ppu and you dont your fucked. thats not the way it should be."
What % of the time should that be the case, if 90% is too much?
If it SHOULD be that it doesnt matter if the enemy has a ppu and you dont... then just remove the PPU class from the game.
If it SHOULD.NT be that it doesnt matter if the enemy has a ppu and you dont... then just remove all but the PPU class from the game.
see where im goin with this?
PPU's should be an advantage... yada yada yada
i said it multiple times on this thread... PPU should give you an edge
however PvP should never depend on 1 class. ever.
daving a ppu shouldnt increase your chances of winning by 40% (assuming 2 non-ppu teams are equally skilled there would be a 50% chance of victory each). ppu buffs - i like these as are. this already gives the team with a ppu the edge. effectively over capping skills (tanks with all in hc + imps + ppu boosts = more hc than tank without ppu could ever get). s/d this is another advantage. IMO it is maybe a little too much, but ill accept it :)
heals - well... a ppu being able to make most classes outheal / near outheal a weapon is stupid. if you look at hwat i said i dont even bitch abut the PPU's survival chances. all i infact suggested was that forign heals are like forign s/d (massive spelling issues there?)
as for holy blue glue... its just too powerfull. sorry but it is. you can actually barely move.
now i think it should slow down / slow mouse sesitivity (not the aim stat... peoples actual aim abilities). however not by that much.
db etc i have no prob with. i dont bitch about bein DB'd... it just mean smore con :p
anyway... i lost my train of thought so ill leave it there
:edit 1: @cannings - im not saying their (little) damage on para should be taken away, in fact if you look you will see that none of my suggested changes alter a PPU's survival rate.
and yes. i have seen a PPU out heal and live through about 5 people at once... including a lib PE and a speed gat tank. all * or higher, all in PP1. i was sittin next to the PPU irl laughing at them
:edit 2: @Strych9 - im only about x/4 i think. heal sanct level. all store bought spells, soloing aggies atm all i have is heal / melee 1 / basic 1 / def / NRG bolt
all on 400% damage (ish) i think
Originally posted by Strych9
1. Its funny Rince started this, cause one of his homies started that thread the other day about how overpowered the Revenge drone was because he got hit by one, without even really knowing all of the circumstances involved with using one. :)
I was one of those tanks. And it wasn't a bash at any class at all. I am not talking about weapons in this thread - just classes getting their asses whooped and reasons behind it. I personally don't know anyone that I chat with on Pluto who bitches when they die - they accepts that maybe they were sloppy or didn't fight well. Hell, I got killed by 2 spies on my PPU because I was careless and ran into them unbuffed. I was dead before I could get all buffs up.
It would be a very short thread about overpowered weapons because I think there are only maybe 1 or 2 now that need to be tweeked slightly - not nerfed to hell and back.
Hey I think the only weapon need nerf is HL really....Holy Lightning is as nutty as hell it really IS holy lightning for crying out loud. Most weapons need boosts more then nerfs, maybe the executioner and some pistols, but nothing stands out as bad as HL itself.
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
If it SHOULD.NT be that it doesnt matter if the enemy has a ppu and you dont... then just remove all but the PPU class from the game. Come on now, that makes no sense whatsoever.
PPUs are not a combat class. They are a support class. They make other runners better. Their purpose is to help sway the odds in combat.
If they dont sway the odds, then they fail at their purpose.
however PvP should never depend on 1 class. ever.2 equal tanks fight each other. 1 tank has a generic helper, there to support him. The level of the support can be 10%, 40%, 90% whatever, doesnt matter. Wont the tank with the pure support helping character ALWAYS have the edge? No matter what?
You are thinking PvP in classic terms, where each class available is capable of fighting on their own. Neocron is different in that it has a class dedicated to ONLY helping other classes. No other PvP games that I know of have such a class.
As long as the PPU is a pure support class, it will ALWAYS sway PvP in ways PvPers arent used to.
daving a ppu shouldnt increase your chances of winning by 40% (assuming 2 non-ppu teams are equally skilled there would be a 50% chance of victory each). ppu buffs - i like these as are. this already gives the team with a ppu the edge. effectively over capping skills (tanks with all in hc + imps + ppu boosts = more hc than tank without ppu could ever get). s/d this is another advantage. IMO it is maybe a little too much, but ill accept it :)
heals - well... a ppu being able to make most classes outheal / near outheal a weapon is stupid. if you look at hwat i said i dont even bitch abut the PPU's survival chances. all i infact suggested was that forign heals are like forign s/d (massive spelling issues there?)
as for holy blue glue... its just too powerfull. sorry but it is. you can actually barely move.
now i think it should slow down / slow mouse sesitivity (not the aim stat... peoples actual aim abilities). however not by that much.
db etc i have no prob with. i dont bitch about bein DB'd... it just mean smore con :p
anyway... i lost my train of thought so ill leave it there Hehe. I am not against your ideas. I am fine with fixing/removing parashock or whatever else.
I am just wondering- even if they fix para and make foreign cast heals weaker- do you think that will change how things are now?
With those changes- do you really think that a tank and a PPU will no longer have a big advantage over just a tank?
Well before this post runs away on a tangent> Excellent post Rince!
I have been hit on my Tank by Holy Lightning and it took 11 hits to all but kill me - the 12th would have done. I personally don't class that as overpowered. Now, imagine I'm on my Melee tanks and running around - that APU is gonna have a hell of a job hitting me with 11 or 12 shots.
But this is the whole idea about this thread - If I die really quickly to a FA, then is it not my own fault for speccing more Fire ?
Too many peeps are quick to shout nerf, just because they cannot survive against some weapons.
EDIT@Des...
Thanks bud :)
Originally posted by GT_Rince
I have been hit on my Tank by Holy Lightning and it took 11 hits to all but kill me - the 12th would have done. I personally don't class that as overpowered. Now, imagine I'm on my Melee tanks and running around - that APU is gonna have a hell of a job hitting me with 11 or 12 shots.
But this is the whole idea about this thread - If I die really quickly to a FA, then is it not my own fault for speccing more Fire ?
Too many peeps are quick to shout nerf, just because they cannot survive against some weapons.
EDIT@Des...
Thanks bud :)
well then you`re lucky :)
the random dmg thing makes it very hard to discuss wether apus are balanced or not....
i personally always seem to get unlucky and take alot more dmg than another tank with the same resists and armor...
its fubared ... take random dmg out :)
Jesterthegreat
18-03-04, 16:01
Originally posted by Strych9
Come on now, that makes no sense whatsoever.
PPUs are not a combat class. They are a support class. They make other runners better. Their purpose is to help sway the odds in combat.sway... not decide
If they dont sway the odds, then they fail at their purpose.2 equal tanks fight each other. 1 tank has a generic helper, there to support him. The level of the support can be 10%, 40%, 90% whatever, doesnt matter. Wont the tank with the pure support helping character ALWAYS have the edge? No matter what?
what involves more skill? being a fully buffed tank with holy heal allowing you to (nearly) out heal an enemy, or being a fully buffed tank with holy heal (on 50%) and having a nice heal, but taking damage.
yes the tank + ppu has the advantage... but i believe i said that was the idea? advantage, not certainty. get a low level ppu to do an uncapped blessed heal on a tank then fight, see if it is more down to who has more skill than it is if he has holy heal on. because... surely we all want this to be a skill based game? im not saying remove resists etc, make it purely skill based... but with heals doing less you would have to rely on skill more to get a victory
You are thinking PvP in classic terms, where each class available is capable of fighting on their own. Neocron is different in that it has a class dedicated to ONLY helping other classes. No other PvP games that I know of have such a class.
ppu's choose to be pure support. ok i concede that speccing for a weapon, they wont be the best damage dealers, however last time i checked a well setup PPU could drug into a fusion rifle if he wanted... now im not saying "PPU+fusion rifle = tank like offence with PPU defence" or some shit... what im saying is PPU's choose to put all dex into runspeed... when they outheal stuff anyway. experiment with setups... find a nice medium
As long as the PPU is a pure support class, it will ALWAYS sway PvP in ways PvPers arent used to.Hehe. I am not against your ideas. I am fine with fixing/removing parashock or whatever else.
sway = good. i want PPU's to make a difference.
however think of a 5 on 5 situation, a wee clan war or whatever... would you have the team with a PPU win almost by default?
I am just wondering- even if they fix para and make foreign cast heals weaker- do you think that will change how things are now?
yes. people would rely more on dodging, skill, etc and less on standing there shouting "heal, i am getting hit" on team speak O_o
With those changes- do you really think that a tank and a PPU will no longer have a big advantage over just a tank? thats just it... they will have an advantage... however it would be a beatable one :)
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
thats just it... they will have an advantage... however it would be a beatable one :) First, PPU with a fusion rifle isnt exactly what we are talking about... its not the fusion rifle that decides the battle. :)
But about what you say above- how would we know its beatable? How would that be decided or tested?
Back on topic, lets say we nerf the PPU to hell even further, so he not only has every class with a way to remove his buffs, but now his buffs do even less. All it takes is one tank to go up against another tank with a PPU and lose and then they will come running to the forums crying for nerfs.
We need some sort of criteria. We need to determine at what point the PPUs will be "ineffective enough" that they will be considered balanced, and then have a surefire way of testing to see if we have reached that point.
My view: the only way to stop PPUs from deciding the outcomes of PvP (assuming equal skill on both sides, if such a thing exists) is to remove the PPU altogether as a pure support role. As long as you can bring a character into a combat situation that does not fight, but instead helps other characters.... a side WITH that type of character will always have a huge advantage over the side WITHOUT. Regardless of the specifics of what % of the heal is foreign cast and other stuff like that.
Just my view, pure opinion. :)
And skill is what makes this hard. When testing... how do you create a baseline for skill? How can you eliminate skill as a variable when testing in order to isolate the subject of the tests?
Psyco Groupie
18-03-04, 16:14
wtf is wrong with if you want long fights a ppu is present ? makes perfect sense O.o
Originally posted by .Cyl0n
its fubared ... take random dmg out :)
That I do agree with. It is hard as hell to spec for something when you don't know what damage it is going to do. I don't think they should have ever introduced that in the 1st place.
I am going to make a few new characters in the next few weeks on Saturn to try out a few different setups, but I don't believe that there is any 1 class that is more powerful than another.
Every single class can kill another, if they just know and understand how that class works. I guess I am lucky that I have been playing long enough to have played just about every character so understand how most are played.
Jesterthegreat
18-03-04, 16:20
Originally posted by Strych9
First, PPU with a fusion rifle isnt exactly what we are talking about... its not the fusion rifle that decides the battle. :)hmm... but you called ppu pure support, i was mearly pointing out thats by choice :)
But about what you say above- how would we know its beatable? How would that be decided or tested?
well NFing with 2 capped tanks (roughly equal skill if pos), a mid level PPU and a capped PPU. try a few fights with tank v tank, a few with tank +capped PPU v tank and a few with tank +uncapped ppu v tank. i realise no 2 fights are the same... but you could see how muh easier it was for the lone tank, and if there is still an advantage of the ppu. i would use test server but its b0rked and i cba to reinstall lol
Back on topic, lets say we nerf the PPU to hell even further, so he not only has every class with a way to remove his buffs, but now his buffs do even less. All it takes is one tank to go up against another tank with a PPU and lose and then they will come running to the forums crying for nerfs.
what buffs can someone remove from a PPU that they cant remove from any other class? O_o his buffs do exactly the same, i am talking about madjusting heal so it is less effectiv eon others this wouldnt even affect PPU's on their own O_o
We need some sort of criteria. We need to determine at what point the PPUs will be "ineffective enough" that they will be considered balanced, and then have a surefire way of testing to see if we have reached that point.
i agree we do. well the devs are trusting the players to do tests with weapon damage etc on test server... that seems like a good place to start no?
My view: the only way to stop PPUs from deciding the outcomes of PvP (assuming equal skill on both sides, if such a thing exists) is to remove the PPU altogether as a pure support role. As long as you can bring a character into a combat situation that does not fight, but instead helps other characters.... a side WITH that type of character will always have a huge advantage over the side WITHOUT. Regardless of the specifics of what % of the heal is foreign cast and other stuff like that.
tbh (and this is my opinion) i would remove them as pure suport. i would have hybrid, not 2 classes of psi. however i dont know how much work would need to be done to achive that, im no coder, i dont do kk decisions, i dont know all the consiquences. thats why its my opinion and im not demanding KK do it :D and no... a person with a ppu there to heal him doesnt have a "huge" advantage over someone who does not... my tank (lowest psi class in the game, as you know) can sprint cast his heal / deflecter Drug free). i would prolly sprint cast other buffs if they werent store bought. my tank heals at 481% damage (without drugs) and casts abou 3/min off capped speed (again, no drugs)
Just my view, pure opinion. :)
and youy are entitled to it of course :) to an extent i even agree :)
And skill is what makes this hard. When testing... how do you create a baseline for skill? How can you eliminate skill as a variable when testing in order to isolate the subject of the tests? thats the main problem... however as soon as it looks like skill is a major factor in these tests, we have made a step in the right direction. because thats what we are discussing here... holy heal > skill. if it looks like skill is affecting the results then we are improving it :)
Psyco Groupie
18-03-04, 16:22
holy heal is not > skill
holy heal enables two people with skill to kill more than 2 with less 'skill'
sigh :rolleyes:
alas....read my last 2 posts.....really its always about the PPU it always was.
I will buy that Jester- while I dont want them to be removed as a pure support class- I do think, aside from the player base having a mindset shift, thats the only way to really "fix" them.
Now regarding skill- true, if skill looks like it is an issue, that is good.
BUT
If we say skill > holy heal... how much skill? How do we measure skill? Hehe. We have no measurable quantifiable units for skill.
I guess we could take 10 players, ranked from 1 to 10 in terms of skill with 1 being most skilled, 10 being the least, and then say players 1-4 should be able to beat holy heal, players 1-6 should be able to beat blessed heal, and players 1-8 should be able to beat basic heal. Something like that (if you follow me).
Jesterthegreat
18-03-04, 16:26
Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
holy heal is not > skill
holy heal enables two people with skill to kill more than 2 with less 'skill'
sigh :rolleyes:
i agree that i worded that absolutly shit :)
however holy heal shouldnt enable people ti kill more people... it should give them a better chance of killing more people...
i think thats the part some people arent getting. i dont want them to be useless... but i dont want PvP depending on them
:edit: @Strych9
measuring skill is not needed... as long as it noticably affect outcome it is good.
maybe setup 10 of the most imfamas for PvP players in the test server, give them identicle setups on identicle classes (trying all classes of course) and using identicle weapons, then have a bit of PvP tests.in anything that remotely resembles a FPS there must be some dependancy on skill.
Real skill lies in fighting up to 5 enemies at once and winning.
Winning a duel means jack shit, if u are the type of pussy that stealths away from a fight, but wins every duel, guess what,
YOU HAVE NO SKILL.
Duels are so fuckin co-ordinated it makes me sick. WAIT WAIT, DRUGS WEARING OFF, MY BUFFS ARE GOIN. STFU.
In an OP war, do you ask your enemy on zone to wait whilst u buff up???
I sometimes lose duels, all be it rare, i sometimes lose them.
However, the same people that beat me 2 out of 5 fights in NF get beaten EVERY TIME outside of NF.
Why is this?
The ability to keep yourself alive out of NF > ANY duel.
A few Uranus players may have seex ZaToX running around MB/CRP. Thats a PE with a speedgat. I think ZaToX died once to 7 CM, and even then he took out 5 of them (sorry Dribble Joy :p)...
Well, I was going to keep it a secret, but ZaToX = me. I proved to several people that HC PE was more than viable. I literally have 8-15 people a day DMing ZaToX asking wtf setup i use. Its not about setup.
EDIT - i just realised this sounds like a brag...
............. it wasnt intentional :(
I was merely trying to prove that any class can be viewed as overpowered. It only takes one person to prove it.
Psyco Groupie
18-03-04, 16:28
A ppu without skill cannot keep someone healed in a firefight 1 vs 5 ... seems like ppus without skill wouldnt be a prob :rolleyes:
nah holy heal is real skill , you just click on someone like you click a windows icon ^^ The one who has to aim a CS is not skill :eek: thats how the game works right now, skill is only to a small degree.
Jesterthegreat
18-03-04, 16:31
Originally posted by L0KI
Real skill lies in fighting up to 5 enemies at once and winning.
Winning a duel means jack shit, if u are the type of pussy that stealths away from a fight, but wins every duel, guess what,
YOU HAVE NO SKILL.
Duels are so fuckin co-ordinated it makes me sick. WAIT WAIT, DRUGS WEARING OFF, MY BUFFS ARE GOIN. STFU.
In an OP war, do you ask your enemy on zone to wait whilst u buff up???
I sometimes lose duels, all be it rare, i sometimes lose them.
However, the same people that beat me 2 out of 5 fights in NF get beaten EVERY TIME outside of NF.
Why is this?
The ability to keep yourself alive out of NF > ANY duel.
A few Uranus players may have seex ZaToX running around MB/CRP. Thats a PE with a speedgat. I think ZaToX died once to 7 CM, and even then he took out 5 of them (sorry Dribble Joy :p)...
Well, I was going to keep it a secret, but ZaToX = me. I proved to several people that HC PE was more than viable. I literally have 8-15 people a day DMing ZaToX asking wtf setup i use. Its not about setup.
EDIT - i just realised this sounds like a brag...
............. it wasnt intentional :(
I was merely trying to prove that any class can be viewed as overpowered. It only takes one person to prove it. heh... but you took long enough to kill my unarmoured tank who didnt move fight back in CRP :p
now im not saying skill is nothing... what im saying is atm ppu's have too much effect on the game
Originally posted by Rai Wong
thats how the game works right now, skill is only to a small degree.
No offence at all, but from experience, thats generally what someone with a lack of skill says ;)
Blame the computers, blame the ping, blame the lag, or slots on the weapon. Anything but their own abilities.
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
heh... but you took long enough to kill my unarmoured tank who didnt move fight back in CRP :p
Yeah, again, thats my point - its not overpowered. The damage isnt great. Oh, and i was debating whether or not to kill u m8 ;)
EDIT - double post, sorry mods.
Jesterthegreat
18-03-04, 16:37
Originally posted by L0KI
Yeah, again, thats my point - its not overpowered. The damage isnt great. Oh, and i was debating whether or not to kill u m8 ;)
EDIT - double post, sorry mods.
heh wasn't aware you knew who my tank was... i try to keep it quiet (and people always guess im someone else O_o)
anyway yeah skill is important... but i would like to point out that in no of your posts did you mention a PPU tipping the balance in either way. you didnt mention fighting with or without a PPU.
i realise that isnt actually the thread title... but it seems to be what its degenerated into lol
any input on that mate?
Jester, do you think its a good idea to balance everything only on the skill of the MOST skilled people in the game?
If that is what we wanted, I am sure KK could program some killer AI and let the AI fight it out- then you are guaranteed of similar skill.
But I dont think we should only address the supremely skilled.
Thats why I suggested some sort of scale. I mean, EVERY option out there should be viable in the hands of a VERY skilled player I think.
The question is what about a somewhat skilled player? What should the be able to do or not do?
everything should be balanced against the best in each class as if you balance the top everything below automatically balances with it. simple as that
Originally posted by hinch
everything should be balanced against the best in each class as if you balance the top everything below automatically balances with it. simple as that I disagree.
Well
Lets put it this way...
I will agree with you if the best inb each class play the class AT DIFFERENT LEVELS.
Meaning we can balance things for the MOST skilled as long as its not only the most skilled playing capped characters.
But let me tell you, the VAST majority of the player base does not fall into the "highly skilled" category... and its frustrating as HELL for people to tell you "no, its balanced. You just need to play the game as much as I do and be as good as I am in order to experience the balance."
We want balance to exist at all skill levels, and all experience levels.
Saying that Holy Lightning is balanced doesnt mean that the newb APU wont have a hard time with one of his spells or that one of his spells is going to be balanced.
Plus, if you balance things for a "less that highest" level of skill, that allows the ultra skilled players to actually gain an adantage due to their skill- rather than their skill being needed just to be "on par" with everyone else.
Jesterthegreat
18-03-04, 17:01
Originally posted by Strych9
The question is what about a somewhat skilled player? What should the be able to do or not do?
be able to do?
what?
im sorry... you lost me...
and im not saying 100% base the game on skill. im not saying remove stats, and just make it an online FPS. im not even saying remove PPU's. all im saying is dont make PPU's decide the battles. let skill be a factor.
you think a game based on player skill is a bad thing? you think good players should have to put up with mechanics that mean that (for example) the 2 most skilled players on the game would often lose to 2 less skilled players, just because 1 of the less skilled players chose to play a PPU.
now im sure thats a shit example and people will pick holes in it... but you know what i mean
:edit: @Strych9 - i think i said somewhere in this thread that i think all non-rares should be boosted. i dont think so called "rares" should be a near necessity for PvP. this alone would improve the skill base, because p[eople who just started playing a week or so ago could be 70-80 base skill, and PvPing properly...
yes i have skillz, lots of them, i make a mean omlette, thou I cant spell ommlet which is upsetting, to recap i pwn all
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
be able to do?
what?
im sorry... you lost me... In other words, 1 tank vs 1 tank and a PPU. Thats the scenario.
Okay, so we think a HIGHLY skilled player should be able to win as the lone tank, correct?
What about the JUST UNDER HIGHLY skilled? Or the AVERAGE skilled player? What can they expect against people of like skills?
Thats what I am getting at.
and im not saying 100% base the game on skill. im not saying remove stats, and just make it an online FPS. im not even saying remove PPU's. all im saying is dont make PPU's decide the battles. let skill be a factor.
you think a game based on player skill is a bad thing? you think good players should have to put up with mechanics that mean that (for example) the 2 most skilled players on the game would often lose to 2 less skilled players, just because 1 of the less skilled players chose to play a PPU.
now im sure thats a shit example and people will pick holes in it... but you know what i meanNo I dont think that at all. I am all about skill being important in Neocron.
I just want balance to ideally transcend skill level... so its balanced for everyone vs people of like skill, not just balanced for those with supreme skill.
:edit: @Strych9 - i think i said somewhere in this thread that i think all non-rares should be boosted. i dont think so called "rares" should be a near necessity for PvP. this alone would improve the skill base, because p[eople who just started playing a week or so ago could be 70-80 base skill, and PvPing properly... I agree. I think its a shame when people say "sorry, I cant fight yet. I dont have my <insert rare here> yet" or "cause I am not capped yet."
Jesterthegreat
18-03-04, 17:26
Originally posted by Strych9
In other words, 1 tank vs 1 tank and a PPU. Thats the scenario.
Okay, so we think a HIGHLY skilled player should be able to win as the lone tank, correct?
What about the JUST UNDER HIGHLY skilled? Or the AVERAGE skilled player? What can they expect against people of like skills?
Thats what I am getting at.No I dont think that at all. I am all about skill being important in Neocron.
I just want balance to ideally transcend skill level... so its balanced for everyone vs people of like skill, not just balanced for those with supreme skill.I agree. I think its a shame when people say "sorry, I cant fight yet. I dont have my <insert rare here> yet" or "cause I am not capped yet."
well of course it helps to know whos out of your league :) there are certain people i would never face in a 1 on 1, last man standing, no zoning fight outside of NF :D
balance of skill / setups wouldnt be easy to achive, but it would have to be done... and carefully.
as for PvPing when uncapped... its annoys me too when people decide they cant until capped. my tank is 85 base str (roughly) and i am LOVING PVP. my droner is.. .er...88/89 base dex, similar int, and i love playin him too. my first op war (post lomming to drone) was 5 hours (and thats just how long i was there... it started about 4 houirs before that)
of courrse both are now high enough to use rares (just about). my tank needs PA to use a CS and my spy needs PA to use particle nemesis, however i still enjoy it alot being far undercap and having people sex me when i get low and have to zone
they are slightly less smug when i say "yeah... but im only 84 str... so i think im not doin to bad... oh look my skill rank is only 55 (xx/55) and i did alright"
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
well of course it helps to know whos out of your league :) there are certain people i would never face in a 1 on 1, last man standing, no zoning fight outside of NF :D
balance of skill / setups wouldnt be easy to achive, but it would have to be done... and carefully.
as for PvPing when uncapped... its annoys me too when people decide they cant until capped. my tank is 85 base str (roughly) and i am LOVING PVP. my droner is.. .er...88/89 base dex, similar int, and i love playin him too. my first op war (post lomming to drone) was 5 hours (and thats just how long i was there... it started about 4 houirs before that)
of courrse both are now high enough to use rares (just about). my tank needs PA to use a CS and my spy needs PA to use particle nemesis, however i still enjoy it alot being far undercap and having people sex me when i get low and have to zone
they are slightly less smug when i say "yeah... but im only 84 str... so i think im not doin to bad... oh look my skill rank is only 55 (xx/55) and i did alright" tanks can easy pvp un capped, though of course we all like to fight when we got it stacked in our favour.
i rememeber my tank who was only just able to sqease into is PA1 using a CS where i certainly wasnt capping it took down a known capped TG tanker, so it can be done uncapped, its just a decent excuse for delaying fight imo:lol:
Jesterthegreat
18-03-04, 18:29
Originally posted by ezza
i rememeber my tank who was only just able to sqease into is PA1 using a CS where i certainly wasnt capping it took down a known capped TG tanker, so it can be done uncapped, its just a decent excuse for delaying fight imo:lol:
this was when PA1 was 100 str right?
you didnt squeeze into STR 90 pa to use a tl 105 gun... when pa 2 is str 100 :p
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
this was when PA1 was 100 str right?
you didnt squeeze into STR 90 pa to use a tl 105 gun... when pa 2 is str 100 :p yup you are correct how ever point is still valid
it was still a xx/55 tank v xx/67 tank
Jesterthegreat
18-03-04, 18:32
Originally posted by ezza
yup you are correct how ever point is still valid
yup :)
and my spy was combatting at dex 91 (pistol) and now dex 88 (drone)
i just dont care anymore... i PvP for the hell of it lol
Aziraphale
18-03-04, 18:34
I have no skill.
I get owned a lot.
Still love it :D
2) I kill an APU and PE on my Melee Tank. Not because I am uber skilled, but because they couldn't fight worth shit.
i kinda gotta dissagree with you there...
it takes a total of 3 hits to kill alot of APU monks with a POB, and a PE isnt that much more, like 10 hits... if he doesnt heal...plus melee tanks are hella fast, and can take alot of hits and outheal alot of damage being done to him with his heal.
btw i am a melee tank:p
Jesterthegreat
18-03-04, 19:02
Originally posted by Invertigo
i kinda gotta dissagree with you there...
it takes a total of 3 hits to kill alot of APU monks with a POB, and a PE isnt that much more, like 10 hits... if he doesnt heal...plus melee tanks are hella fast, and can take alot of hits and outheal alot of damage being done to him with his heal.
btw i am a melee tank:p
now lets assume the APU's not a noob and he sprints backwards casting a capped HL on you and your damage occasionally registars because you are running backwards...
that was a LONG sentance :lol:
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