So it's been 1.5 years, status summery of Neocron [Archive]

Ehyuko

15-03-04, 02:02

Just as a note, all these statements I make are my opinion, however it is opinion based on my experiences in game and as such I believe valid.

I love Neocron. I like the concept and I like the fact that it's a combination rpg/fps, skill is an asset to help win in any situation, a carefuly thought out and experimentally proven setup is a great help in winning. I like the variety that exists in Neocron in both setups and equipment.

That said, it's now been over 1 and a half years since the game wen't 'retail' or in actuality paid beta. How much balancing, bug fixes and new content have we seen?

A. Stability

No improvement. I crash randomly on zoning. I crash when moving items. I crash using the city term. I crash opening the gogo. I randomly synch into others apartments on zoning and while standing still. Outposts and numerous players cause serious CPU/video card usage causing lag/errors there have been no improvements that have been visable to me since beta. Weapon animations consistantly cause lag and errors for whatever reason. Weapons consistantly become bugged in that they will not activate/reload/switch, there has been no improvement in this area.

Consistantly patches go to the test server for testing, bugs are reported and the patches are sent directly to retail without fixes. Known bugs and exploits abound in the game but are ignored for long periods of time. Example being the devourer, the ammo is bugged, a change of a coefficent/variable and it would be fixed but this is not done for over a month because of unknown reasons.

B. Balancing by class.

Droners have seen remarkable improvement, a welcome change since they were broken upon retail release.

Psi abilities are broken and have been for a long time, they lack the nessecity to aim as much as other classes and their effectiveness against most classes is beyond all others in both the ppu and apu roles [ppus can effectively kill any other class through the use of parashocks and soulclusters, they are the sole healers and the sole buffers/debuffers]. Apus have huge weaknesses in they can't heal and defense wise vs a PE or tank, however all this doesn't matter as soon as a ppu arives.

Tanks have gone through slight changes both making them weaker and stronger by turns in comparison to other classes. The net result I'd say is that tanks are balanced outside of the power of their primary weapons, the dev in particular which is bugged. Lack of HC imps.

Both pistol and rifle spies continue to have no access to basic armour as the rest of the classes, their damage output is equal to PE's in most cases - this is comparing abilitity against ability, and does not incude drugs as drugs can cause all players to exhibit much more effective abilities and a drugged setup should only be compared against other drug setups... not undrugged.

PE's seem to be balanced to me, they deal less damage then tanks/monks and have higher defenses.

C. Balance by weapon

Melee - Weapon deterioration is overly high on these weapons, other then that I feel these are balanced.

Rifles - Broken as range is broken.

Pistols - Balanced except in particular cases such as weapon types where RG weapons have several bonuses and multi shot pistols have terrible accuracy.

Cannons - Runspeed decrease is random apparently or exploits are used to avoid it. Other then this cannons appear balanced in that they do much more damage then any other weapon type. Range of course is broken.

Apu abilities - Broken, aiming is barely required, damage output is similar to cannons, poison itself is broken.

Ppu abilities - Seriously broken, offensive, defensive healing and buffing abilities, high cost of items, massively alter the abilities of any runner.

Drones - High cost and skill investment for usefulness, more so then all other weapon types except rifles to which they are similar is raw statistics on weapons.

C. Content

Consistant addition of new items every few months, many promised and nessicary items/features have been delayed inexplicibly. This is the only aspect of Neocron that I feel has made serious advancement.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What prompts this thread is I have recently been involved in several other MMOG beta tests, by far their beta product is more stable and more balanced then what Neocron has become in over a year of retail.

Consistantly balance/bug fixes are ignored and set aside for future patches or are left unfinished because of bugs which are never fixed. The average lifespan of a bug in Neocron is ~3-9 months, balance issues take approximately 1-3 months before any decisions orchanges are announced/implemented. This I fell is unexcusable, untolerable and the reason for many players to leave this game.

Mainly Reakktors attitude is that things will be fixed 'sometime' or 'in future patches.' I STRONGLY urge the developers, coders and managers to allow work on current issues rather then ignoring them to work on future features, it is this misdirection that is costing Neocron it's customer base and causing these issues to continue.

Dru Blood

15-03-04, 02:06

what he says

MrChumble

15-03-04, 02:11

I agree wholeheartedly with the comments made about stability/bugs/exploits. I know KK are hard at work on DoY, but some of these bugs are getting on for two years old now :mad:

Weapon balance stuff has been debated at great length in other threads ;)

Doc Holliday

15-03-04, 02:24

well 197 did bring alot more stability. 2 fatals this weekend total and i was on most of saturday for change. several hrs. ( im ill atm ) thats alot diff to how it used to be. im not the only one to recognise this. ok there are bugs but they ARE gettin better. its all one step at a time tho. i would rather see one patch that whipes the bugs out and no new content but im sure others would prefer more content etc. its all about opinion and balance. as stated this has at times been tricky in a game as ( at least in some respects ) as complex as this.

just my thoughts.

doc.

Shadow Dancer

15-03-04, 02:27

Originally posted by Ehyuko

Consistantly balance/bug fixes are ignored and set aside for future patches or are left unfinished because of bugs which are never fixed. The average lifespan of a bug in Neocron is ~3-9 months, balance issues take approximately 1-3 months before any decisions orchanges are announced/implemented. This I fell is unexcusable, untolerable and the reason for many players to leave this game.

Mainly Reakktors attitude is that things will be fixed 'sometime' or 'in future patches.' I STRONGLY urge the developers, coders and managers to allow work on current issues rather then ignoring them to work on future features, it is this misdirection that is costing Neocron it's customer base and causing these issues to continue.

Best part of your post, I couldn't agree more.

Originally posted by Ehyuko

A. Stability

No improvement. I crash randomly on zoning. I crash when moving items. I crash using the city term. I crash opening the gogo. I randomly synch into others apartments on zoning and while standing still. Outposts and numerous players cause serious CPU/video card usage causing lag/errors there have been no improvements that have been visable to me since beta. Weapon animations consistantly cause lag and errors for whatever reason. Weapons consistantly become bugged in that they will not activate/reload/switch, there has been no improvement in this area.

Consistantly patches go to the test server for testing, bugs are reported and the patches are sent directly to retail without fixes. Known bugs and exploits abound in the game but are ignored for long periods of time. Example being the devourer, the ammo is bugged, a change of a coefficent/variable and it would be fixed but this is not done for over a month because of unknown reasons.

I totally agree. No arguements here.

Originally posted by Ehyuko

B. Balancing by class.

Droners have seen remarkable improvement, a welcome change since they were broken upon retail release.

I agree. But they still need improvement IMO.

Originally posted by Ehyuko

Psi abilities are broken and have been for a long time, they lack the nessecity to aim as much as other classes and their effectiveness against most classes is beyond all others in both the ppu and apu roles [ppus can effectively kill any other class through the use of parashocks and soulclusters, they are the sole healers and the sole buffers/debuffers]. Apus have huge weaknesses in they can't heal and defense wise vs a PE or tank, however all this doesn't matter as soon as a ppu arives.

I agree with everything here except ppus being able to kill with soul cluter. Come on. They can't spam parashock enough to kill someone with a soul cluster. And soul cluster is laughable.

The only people who should worry about soul clusters are people with ATI cards. :D

Originally posted by Ehyuko

Tanks have gone through slight changes both making them weaker and stronger by turns in comparison to other classes. The net result I'd say is that tanks are balanced outside of the power of their primary weapons, the dev in particular which is bugged. Lack of HC imps.

I agree, more or less.

Originally posted by Ehyuko

Both pistol and rifle spies continue to have no access to basic armour as the rest of the classes, their damage output is equal to PE's in most cases - this is comparing abilitity against ability, and does not incude drugs as drugs can cause all players to exhibit much more effective abilities and a drugged setup should only be compared against other drug setups... not undrugged.

i agree

But spy armor isn't THAT bad.

Originally posted by Ehyuko

PE's seem to be balanced to me, they deal less damage then tanks/monks and have higher defenses.

Yea I guess they are balanced. Except I don't see any real uniqueness to them in team battles. Oh and stealth is a problem.

But that's it.

Originally posted by Ehyuko

C. Balance by weapon

Melee - Weapon deterioration is overly high on these weapons, other then that I feel these are balanced.

Rifles - Broken as range is broken.

Pistols - Balanced except in particular cases such as weapon types where RG weapons have several bonuses and multi shot pistols have terrible accuracy.

I agree.

Originally posted by Ehyuko

Cannons - Runspeed decrease is random apparently or exploits are used to avoid it. Other then this cannons appear balanced in that they do much more damage then any other weapon type. Range of course is broken.

.

I agree, except for the range part. How is range broken?

Oh and, apu does more damage than cannons.

I definitely agree with the first sentence. I've yet to see a tank that "is slow as a turtle" according to some of the people on this forum. :rolleyes:

Maybe on their screen but..........

Originally posted by Ehyuko

Apu abilities - Broken, aiming is barely required, damage output is similar to cannons, poison itself is broken.

Ppu abilities - Seriously broken, offensive, defensive healing and buffing abilities, high cost of items, massively alter the abilities of any runner.

.

I agree, especially on the ppu part.

Originally posted by Ehyuko

Drones - High cost and skill investment for usefulness, more so then all other weapon types except rifles to which they are similar is raw statistics on weapons.

.

I think they are too high maintanence. It's unfair really.

But, and I know you'll disagree, I think droners are overpowered. It's just that they are so rediculously high maintanence and high cost, that few runners play them. They really shouldn't have to make friggin 500 bajillion of their weapons just to pvp regularly.

i'm still using my HL from months ago.

Zanathos

15-03-04, 02:31

AMEN!

although I will say that I havent been around for most of retail so i didnt have to suffer like some of you did :p

OH!

and I crash ALOT less now ^_^

•Super|\|ova•

15-03-04, 02:55

After the latest patch I seem to have FRE's more often than before. And no, I'm not kidding at all.

Myrlin

15-03-04, 03:07

Well said Ehyuko.

@Shad - Range is broken because the clipping plane is smaller than the max range of many weapons.

Shadow Dancer

15-03-04, 03:17

Originally posted by Myrlin
Well said Ehyuko.

@Shad - Range is broken because the clipping plane is smaller than the max range of many weapons.

I was asking why he said cannon range was broken. I thought cannon range didn't surpass clipping plane.

I'm confused. :p

RayBob

15-03-04, 03:38

Well said, Ehyuko. However...

The main reason many of us are still playing Neocron is because it is fun. I have searched multiple lists of both currently available and upcoming MMORPGs. I cannot find a single one (except for the unspoken one) that combines skill based FPS styled PvP with a true RPG (leveling, equipment, mobs, etc.). To be honest, I am shocked that other developers with deep financial and talent wells haven't realized the appeal of this combination.

The fact is that KK is a small company. I believe this is their only product so I am sure that, despite our skepticism, they do care about the game and are trying their best to improve it. That does not mean that I am not as baffled as many of you with some of the decisions they’ve made but overall, I think the game is better than it was a year ago. The one exception is stability. I honestly do not think they realize how many crashes most of us suffer on a daily basis. They should make stability a top priority.

I am hopeful that after BDoY is released, KK will be in a better financial position. The stability, balancing, and content that we all want takes time. To put it succinctly, they need to hire more people.

Ray

Ehyuko

15-03-04, 04:10

Just a few quick clarifications:

I agree with everything here except ppus being able to kill with soul cluter. Come on. They can't spam parashock enough to kill someone with a soul cluster. And soul cluster is laughable.

Soul clusters [the TL 93 ones] do the same damage per shot as a capped healing light burst, that the soulcluster is useless indoors because of it's movement resolution is yet another balance/bug issue that has never been adressed, the RoF on soulclusters has been improved... basicly the only classes which should fear soulclusters are spies and apus due to their weak armour/lack of heals. Also I know soul clusters are broken this patch in that they attack the caster, this was noted on the testserver but made it to retail and yes, is a bug.

The lowest level parashock does 6-12 damage a hit when you are damage boosted [using a heavy energy belt with specced energy resist, aprox total armour = 130 energy] at a rof of 105, this is far more then a TL 3 heal can overcome and combined with holy para/truesight sanctum and the basic nature that 1 on 1 the ppu should be able to survive anything allows the ppu to be played offensively. There has been a huge increase in the numbers of players playing ppu monks this way.

About range issues with HC weapons:

I agree, except for the range part. How is range broken?
Several cannons - ravager, storm laser, tt epic, do comparable damage to the TL 110+ rifles with the same range, but are just as accurate or very close to, a healing light's accuracy. This is part of range being broken over all, I meant range is broken in general, this example is that tanks have equal sniping ability as spies due to range being broken.

But spy armor isn't THAT bad

I disagree but this is the last time I will comment on it in this thread.

Just as a comparison, PE's have inq 2+ armour, plus medium belts, plus shelter/deflector. Tanks have access to inq 4, dur 4, and have a huge con pool to allocate. Monks [in general not choosing between apu/ppu] have armour that gives force/pierce/energy/fire/xray resist, the xray resist is very small I agree but still vitally noticeable over none in addition to heavy belt access [yes I believe monk int gain is still broken].

Now compared to the general access spy armour which is pure force/pierce/xray and access to heavy belts. No other class needs to drug or use special implants to have access to armour for multiple types of damage except spies, some players find this acceptable I do not. A typical monk/PE/tank armour setup would give ~ 70-160 resist in each of the primary damge types through armour alone [fire/energy/force], spies have only access to 2 of these pools and signifigant reduction in a secondary damage type [which now other player types have access to through the use of xray bones, monks get a slight xray defense in their armour as opposed to bones].

In short xray armour reduces the average damage from an xray weapon by ~ 30%, with 130 xray armour [as 60% of the damage is a primary type and 40% is xray... the most xray reduction in resists is 75% at ~ 200 resist].. but only in the case of xray weapons. All other armour sets even without shelter/deflector will have a similar result against all types of damage [except poison, which is also bugged, surprise], as they have multiple resists as opposed to only 2 of the 3 main types. In effect, a spy has at least 2 resists they cannot have any signifigant defense in [in most cases fire and poison] because of the lack in variety and strength of their armour.

I would also like to point out that 3 pieces of inq 1 armour provide more defense then a heavy fire belt against fire, they also give very close to the same defense as battle armour in force/pierce, I meantion this because this is what most spies try to reach for, a heavy belt that covers both fire and energy... they are still weaker then tanks/PEs/ PPUs, but closer to the level of an apu defense wise at the sacrifice of 3 imp slots or drugging. As a further example an apu could have a full holy armour set, PA plus a fire protection belt without speccing any con and still have better resists then a spy who had inq 1 armour and fully specced con [as far as primary damage types, the spy wins in xray.. but takes more damage overall because of lower resists against energy except against xray weapons wher ethey would take a similar amount].

This is somewhat off topic and has been mentioned before, but I still cannot see how players can consider spy armour fine - even with stealth. There is just too large of a difference that cannot be made up for as spies perform almost identically as PEs in damage output and ranged combat in this game is broken.

Raybob:

The main reason many of us are still playing Neocron is because it is fun. I have searched multiple lists of both currently available and upcoming MMORPGs. I cannot find a single one (except for the unspoken one) that combines skill based FPS styled PvP with a true RPG (leveling, equipment, mobs, etc.). To be honest, I am shocked that other developers with deep financial and talent wells haven't realized the appeal of this combination.

This is my same reason for continuing to play Neocron - because it's the only game that combines RPG and FPS elements in an enjoyable way. In this respect it has far more depth then counterstrike/team fortress classic or any FPS but is highly skill based which has very little to do in non FPS RPGs.

I love this game type and am deeply disappointed in how Neocron has been progressing, I feel that the methods of Reakktor are slightly askew from what could make this an excellent and highly profitable product. I'm sure they have the same goals as everyone who plays this game as far as making all classes needed, balanced, retaining all the atmosphere and concept of Neocron while also introducing new features. I continue to support Neocron in the hopes these issues will be realised in a final form sometime soon and encourage others to play it because it's an excellent concept.

Even if Reakktor is a small company they leap from one issue to another without accomplishing much, they are highly active and I'm sure are working hard. It could be coding difficulty [in that the code is difficult to manipulate because of the engine, not because of lack of programming skill], or multiple other issues I have no idea about... Still problems exist in this game for very lengthy periods of time without any reaction or seeming corrective direction shown by Reakktor. Lupus' testing on the test server I hope is indication of a future trend where issues are analysed and dealt with systematicly rather then changes being made and the results experimentally proven and then more changes are made ad infinitim. Excellent examples are changes to damage/effectiveness, almost constantly players are complaining of the 'sledgehammer' approch that sees abilities vary form one extreme to the other before a permenant solution is developed.

I feel that Reakktor is focusing on BDoY as a general cure-all for ingame/stability problems, this approch is wrong in my opinion as how many new players of BDoY will await the THIRD release before seeing stability/balance/bug fixes? It's corny, but continuous improvement is far better then random improvement as at least we can look back and say, hey things are getting better.

Omnituens

15-03-04, 04:15

i agree with all in that post bar the monk stuff.

thats only because i didnt read it though, as i'll end up assaulting something because it'll get mah hybrid nerfed or something :p

Mattimeo

15-03-04, 04:21

Originally posted by Ehyuko

I feel that Reakktor is focusing on BDoY as a general cure-all for ingame/stability problems, this approch is wrong in my opinion as how many new players of BDoY will await the THIRD release before seeing stability/balance/bug fixes? It's corny, but continuous improvement is far better then random improvement as at least we can look back and say, hey things are getting better.

I agree with you 100% on this part. KK has taken the carrot/stick routine to a new level, and the players have fallen for it, hook line and sinker. when it's not the cure all it promises to be, and people realize it I'm sure we'll hear "coming soon, tokyo II! really it'll fix everything!" and delays later, cycle repeats.

KKs track record of staying the course is phenominal, too bad it's the wrong course.

RayBob

15-03-04, 04:42

Another major complaint I have with KK is their lack of communication with the community. Granted, they are likely weary of being criticized but they need to apply a healthy dose of skin thickening agent. They should show their appreciation to all of us that have hung with them through these rocky 18 months rather than shutting us out. Martin, we are not the enemy, we are your biggest fans.

Shadow Dancer

15-03-04, 04:44

Originally posted by RayBob
Another major complaint I have with KK is their lack of communication with the community. Granted, they are likely weary of being criticized but they need to apply a healthy dose of skin thickening agent. They should show their appreciation to all of us that have hung with them through these rocky 18 months rather than shutting us out. Martin, we are not the enemy, we are your biggest fans.

<3

Yes you're absolutely right. I may be a harsh critic at times, but it's because I love the game.

And I think their communication needs a serious improvement.

For example, I would love to see an in-depth analysis of the game and it's aspects from 3 members of KK. Does anyone think that is asking too much?

Imagine if they told us what they thought of PvP, the classes, and PvP balance. Or of the faction system. Or the tradeskill system. Or the LE system. Or system of the down.

RayBob

15-03-04, 05:42

Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
For example, I would love to see an in-depth analysis of the game and it's aspects from 3 members of KK. Does anyone think that is asking too much?
Imagine if they told us what they thought of PvP, the classes, and PvP balance. Or of the faction system. Or the tradeskill system. Or the LE system. Or system of the down. I would love to read it. I would just love the opportunity to have a dialog with the people bringing us this fine game. KK may not realize it, but each one of us could easily recommend the game to 1-2 friends and potentially triple their user base. If KK spent a little more time taking to their current customers, they would go a long way towards insuring the success of the expansion and ultimately the game itself.

Ray

Celt

15-03-04, 05:51

Agree with everything Ehyuko has said.

Since patch 196(I think), I get randomly kicked to login screen with no error message while using any aspect of the citycom.

I also feel patch 197 has increased my FRE amount.

Bl@zed

15-03-04, 06:00

Originally posted by Zanathos
AMEN!

although I will say that I havent been around for most of retail so i didnt have to suffer like some of you did :p

OH!

and I crash ALOT less now ^_^

LIES!
i fucking crash SO MUCH its sickening. :wtf:

ServeX

15-03-04, 06:13

yea well hopefully DoY will fix the current situation.

Celt

15-03-04, 06:17

Originally posted by ServeX
yea well hopefully DoY will fix the current situation.

Originally posted by Ehyuko
I feel that Reakktor is focusing on BDoY as a general cure-all for ingame/stability problems, this approch is wrong in my opinion as how many new players of BDoY will await the THIRD release before seeing stability/balance/bug fixes? It's corny, but continuous improvement is far better then random improvement as at least we can look back and say, hey things are getting better.

masterguyver

15-03-04, 07:43

Originally posted by RayBob

I believe this is their only product
actualy they make a sub game to

Originally posted by ServeX
well, they should definitely increase stability now, and fix the bs FRE errors, but I think with the release of DoY they will strive to achieve that.

we will see.

ServeX

15-03-04, 07:52

well, they should definitely increase stability now, and fix the bs FRE errors, but I think with the release of DoY they will strive to achieve that.

Shadow Dancer

15-03-04, 08:15

omg serve who made your sig?

It's awesome. 8|

Original monk

15-03-04, 10:58

euh, sorryz but i didnt read the thread: i yust wanted to say that ya dont have to remind people that they play this game for 1.5 years allready :P

INFERNO22

15-03-04, 11:35

Originally posted by Ehyuko
Just as a note, all these statements I make are my opinion, however it is opinion based on my experiences in game and as such I believe valid.

I love Neocron. I like the concept and I like the fact that it's a combination rpg/fps, skill is an asset to help win in any situation, a carefuly thought out and experimentally proven setup is a great help in winning. I like the variety that exists in Neocron in both setups and equipment.

That said, it's now been over 1 and a half years since the game wen't 'retail' or in actuality paid beta. How much balancing, bug fixes and new content have we seen?

A. Stability

No improvement. I crash randomly on zoning. I crash when moving items. I crash using the city term. I crash opening the gogo. I randomly synch into others apartments on zoning and while standing still. Outposts and numerous players cause serious CPU/video card usage causing lag/errors there have been no improvements that have been visable to me since beta. Weapon animations consistantly cause lag and errors for whatever reason. Weapons consistantly become bugged in that they will not activate/reload/switch, there has been no improvement in this area.

Consistantly patches go to the test server for testing, bugs are reported and the patches are sent directly to retail without fixes. Known bugs and exploits abound in the game but are ignored for long periods of time. Example being the devourer, the ammo is bugged, a change of a coefficent/variable and it would be fixed but this is not done for over a month because of unknown reasons.

B. Balancing by class.

Droners have seen remarkable improvement, a welcome change since they were broken upon retail release.

Psi abilities are broken and have been for a long time, they lack the nessecity to aim as much as other classes and their effectiveness against most classes is beyond all others in both the ppu and apu roles [ppus can effectively kill any other class through the use of parashocks and soulclusters, they are the sole healers and the sole buffers/debuffers]. Apus have huge weaknesses in they can't heal and defense wise vs a PE or tank, however all this doesn't matter as soon as a ppu arives.

Tanks have gone through slight changes both making them weaker and stronger by turns in comparison to other classes. The net result I'd say is that tanks are balanced outside of the power of their primary weapons, the dev in particular which is bugged. Lack of HC imps.

Both pistol and rifle spies continue to have no access to basic armour as the rest of the classes, their damage output is equal to PE's in most cases - this is comparing abilitity against ability, and does not incude drugs as drugs can cause all players to exhibit much more effective abilities and a drugged setup should only be compared against other drug setups... not undrugged.

PE's seem to be balanced to me, they deal less damage then tanks/monks and have higher defenses.

C. Balance by weapon

Melee - Weapon deterioration is overly high on these weapons, other then that I feel these are balanced.

Rifles - Broken as range is broken.

Pistols - Balanced except in particular cases such as weapon types where RG weapons have several bonuses and multi shot pistols have terrible accuracy.

Cannons - Runspeed decrease is random apparently or exploits are used to avoid it. Other then this cannons appear balanced in that they do much more damage then any other weapon type. Range of course is broken.

Apu abilities - Broken, aiming is barely required, damage output is similar to cannons, poison itself is broken.

Ppu abilities - Seriously broken, offensive, defensive healing and buffing abilities, high cost of items, massively alter the abilities of any runner.

Drones - High cost and skill investment for usefulness, more so then all other weapon types except rifles to which they are similar is raw statistics on weapons.

C. Content

Consistant addition of new items every few months, many promised and nessicary items/features have been delayed inexplicibly. This is the only aspect of Neocron that I feel has made serious advancement.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What prompts this thread is I have recently been involved in several other MMOG beta tests, by far their beta product is more stable and more balanced then what Neocron has become in over a year of retail.

Consistantly balance/bug fixes are ignored and set aside for future patches or are left unfinished because of bugs which are never fixed. The average lifespan of a bug in Neocron is ~3-9 months, balance issues take approximately 1-3 months before any decisions orchanges are announced/implemented. This I fell is unexcusable, untolerable and the reason for many players to leave this game.

Mainly Reakktors attitude is that things will be fixed 'sometime' or 'in future patches.' I STRONGLY urge the developers, coders and managers to allow work on current issues rather then ignoring them to work on future features, it is this misdirection that is costing Neocron it's customer base and causing these issues to continue. Dude u type too mutch:angel:

deac

15-03-04, 12:50

great post, too bad kk wont read it :\

GreyFish

15-03-04, 22:21

FRE's have got worse for me too (i never really had a problem with them before).

However today i took someone in my wheeler from NC to MB so he could flip GR's on the way we did the whole trip without ANY sync problems, no mysterious missing wheelers, and i don't get to visit the Phantom Zone(tm).

I was pleasntly surprised :) :) :) :)

Scikar

15-03-04, 22:32

Just a little FYI, 'sniper' tank weapons like Ravager, STORM Laser etc. aren't actually that good for sniping. Ravager range caps at 500m IIRC, SpeedGun range is a little more, seems to be about 550m, but recoil is too high to snipe effectively and most shots miss at that range, and STORM Laser has similar range to SpeedGun but does awful damage now for some reason. I think STORM and SpeedGun are about right TBH, I have no Ravager so I can't comment on it.

@Shadow: Look in the bottom right of Serve's sig. :p

darkservent

15-03-04, 23:35

Originally posted by Scikar

@Shadow: Look in the bottom right of Serve's sig. :p

Ascention made it i would assume,

Good post Oh well, I personnally hope that BDOY is gonna be the best and fixs everytin. My life right now without NC is just great apart from this uni work stress. KK needs to give me a nice reason to get hooked and BDOY will give them that oppertunity.

Spoon

15-03-04, 23:48

I think this game is better than it was a year and a half ago......

:eek:

Ehyuko

16-03-04, 02:39

Scikar:
Just a little FYI, 'sniper' tank weapons like Ravager, STORM Laser etc. aren't actually that good for sniping. Ravager range caps at 500m IIRC, SpeedGun range is a little more, seems to be about 550m, but recoil is too high to snipe effectively and most shots miss at that range, and STORM Laser has similar range to SpeedGun but does awful damage now for some reason. I think STORM and SpeedGun are about right TBH, I have no Ravager so I can't comment on it.

500m is beyond the clipping plane which is somewhere between 200-400m, using 3rd person recoil on these weapons is negligble, these weapons do equal or nearly equal damage to TL 110+ spy weapons. The CS and the Devourer outdamage these and thus are more useful in general to a tank, that is why you rarely see them used.

Balance in general does not exist in this game, people can say that tanks are balanced against PE's or an apu is balanced against a spy, but cannot say that a spy is balanced against a PE or a ppu is balanced against anything.

This isn't a nerf or boosting thread, just my honest opinion on the minimal improvements Neocron has seen in it's time in retail. I look at many other games and see definate changes for the better in far shorter periods of time, all Neocron has added is more features - many of which have been since pulled from the game because of bugs that were never fixed or for the BDoY explansion. I could forgive Reakktor for their small budget and staff if improvements came slowly but steadily, however over a year for glaring and game breaking bugs and imbalances and nothing is done.

Edit: Let me rephrase, nothing is done that FIXES the situation, numerous things have been done but now the imbalance has simply moved to a new position. A bike with a flat tire doesn't work correctly, if you change the flat tire from one end to the other it fixes nothing.

Even when BDoY is released, I doubt these issues will improve. So there's a new engine, guess how much progress will be accomplished in fixing bugs in THAT untested version as opposed to this one which has seen extensive field testing. I'm guessing we will have to await Tokyo 3 and the new engine based on DX 10 for substantial fixes [and bugs] over BDoY.

@spoon:
think this game is better than it was a year and a half ago......

It is... in certain respects, there IS more content but still balance and bug issues exist now that did then. We've moved from a certain class bring the most effective by a signifigant amount in pvp to another, and then back and forth, that's not balance, that's just unbalancing something else. I have had a HUGE improvement over the number of FRE's I've had from a year ago... but IMO this is more due to the new hardware and OS I have replaced my old system with then any fixes to the coding as these changes were sudden and imediate... and not due to a patch.

Scikar

16-03-04, 02:47

Trust me, 500m is not the clipping plane. My SpeedGun, which is my longest range weapon, cannot close on targets just a bit after they turn into sprites, i.e. it's out of range. A bit before that, and it only closes halfway, whereas a SH will close almost all the way. So technically, rifles do still have a range advantage. Also Ravager is not much different to Healing Light in my experience. Ravager pretty much tickles me, but SH certainly hurts. Get an SH shot off and follow up with Healing Light, you'll certainly deal more damage than a Tank can at max range. I know it's not ideal, but just bear in mind that at the clipping plane a tank has no weapons, and a bit before it is forced to use his lowest damaging weapons, and they have a hit chance of about 50%. Also, spies do have the ability to stealth around to get into position, which tanks don't.

Despite this, I can see where you are coming from, and I sympathise with your point. The problem is, CS is only effective up to a max of about 100m, and at that point it's aiming slowly. Dev has a range of what, 9m? SpeedGun drains all your stamina in less than a clip. So at mid range, we're stuck with Ravager etc. If they had lower range, they would be the same as CS for aiming (CS has range of ~300m IIRC according to info, despite generally missing all 4 at that range). Though that is a problem with a broken range system in itself I guess, which is the point of your thread. :)

OmegaVII

16-03-04, 04:23

holy crap its been 1 and a half years since the begining of retail ...... man seems like only yesterday when i loaded beta 4 from my pc format dvd ... christ how the time passes. oh well heres to another 1 and a half years and NC:BotDY :D ;)

GreyFish

17-03-04, 22:41

Originally posted by GreyFish
FRE's have got worse for me too (i never really had a problem with them before).

However today i took someone in my wheeler from NC to MB so he could flip GR's on the way we did the whole trip without ANY sync problems, no mysterious missing wheelers, and i don't get to visit the Phantom Zone(tm).

I was pleasntly surprised :) :) :) :)

Hmmm, I guess i was just lucky, I did 3 runs yesterday (tuesday), With the following results:

first run: NC to MB, I FRE'd once, and my passenger had sync problems twice, being left behind in the previous zone twice.

When we got to MB, i tryed to dissmiss my car, but it said it was already parked (WTF? it's right next to me!), i spawn'd it, and a second car appeared! i could drive either of them, but only dismiss/park one of them. I left the 2nd one by the ASG and it dissapeared after the usual inactivity timer, it seems to be fine now.

Neocron also hung/crashed when i tried to relog to see if that would make any difference.

Second run: NC to MB.

I FRE'd and by the time i could get back my fare had logged off :(

Third run: TG to NC.

Got to ceres ok (the passenger was a very low level n00b), but after leaving the zone, my fare was synced into the middle of the ceres zone, right next to a Y replicant, and was killed pretty instantly.

I tried to get back to ceres but lost the car while trying to go via the nonexistant B_12 zone (trying to head NE from B_11).

That fare also logged :(

JackScratch

18-03-04, 07:45

Ive said it before, and Ill cut and paste it again.

"Does the word stratgey mean nothing on these forums any more. Is balance only achieved by makeing people who consider only small parts of the game, happy. And how does loseing with too much power at your disposal prove anything? The subject of game balance is rediculously complicated and yet people insist that they saw this one time where this one thing nhappened this one way and that proves it. Who do you kill first in a large battle? Why? How has that worked out. Why are the servers not comprised soley of one class? Is PvP the only factor to be considered when discussing balance? You people are so damn shortsighted it hurts, and the game is what it is hurting."

Scikar

18-03-04, 12:27

And your point is? We're not even disccussing particular instances where this occured, we're talking about statistics, where it happens every time. And look at it plainly - how many rifle spies do you see in fights compared to Tank, APUs, PEs, PPUs, and pistol spies?

And yes, PvP is the primary factor to judge balance. The only other factor being PvM. And that is balanced enough. A minute difference between two classes is irrelevant to PvM, it's what, the difference between you getting loot rights on a kill or your team mate? Clearly so important. Whereas a minor difference in PvP can lead to a major problem in fights. If spies' weapons are only slightly weaker than Tank's weapons, and their defence is only slightly lower than Tank's weapons, and their range and accuracy are the same, then the Tank is going to have a clear advantage and should win every time assuming both are skilled. That IS a major issue because it means every spy is going to feel gimped whenever he goes into a fight.

Bah I don't know why I'm even discussing this, your post is irrelevant.

Psyco Groupie

18-03-04, 18:49

summary

JackScratch

19-03-04, 00:02

Ah, sorry, my mistake, I thought there were things other than PvP and PvM in this game. On an unrelated subject, what the hell is Chrytons Tech Tools even in the game for, I mean it has nothing to do with PvP and PvM, you know, the only 2 things in the game?

Scikar

19-03-04, 00:34

And class balance applies to other areas how? Nobody said anything about PvM and PvP being everything, but what else can you shoot a gun at? How can you apply weapon balancing to anything else?

Or what else are you trying to whine about? Tradeskills, which everyone can do to at least a basic extent? Or are you just being pedantic for the sake of trolling?

JackScratch

19-03-04, 00:46

AH, I see, once again my bad, the only thing that counts, the only thing that makes any difference in the game is PvP and PvM. Sorry what was I thinking. You are the god of all things balance, I bow in your infinite shadow.

Do you even think before typeing, or is this some sort of free flow hippy bullshit where you just let your fingers hit the keys randomly?

Scikar

19-03-04, 00:53

No, this is the part where you explain, exactly, how shooting a gun can apply to anything else other than PvP or PvM. Or do we have to balance shooting weapons at barrels? How do you define weapon balance without referring to shooting a weapon at a player or mob?

Or class balance? Is that what you want? Again, where does it apply past PvP, PvM, and to a tiny limited extent tradeskills? Maybe Tanks are better for RP.... nope, I can't see Tanks being overpowered there. Or perhaps spies are too good at constructing? Hmmm, nope. Tanks can carry more items? Monks earn cash more easily? Come on, explain yourself. WTF are you talking about?

Nidhogg

19-03-04, 00:56

Keep it civil, please.

N

JackScratch

19-03-04, 01:06

I would love to explain myself, but I feel your last post says it all. Here we have an extremely complicated game, complicated in play and in scope, yet you and those like you want to narrow it all down to which class has the most powerful attack, or which class can absorb the most damage. Well it isn't like that. It isnt supposed to be like that. It isn't pretending to be like that. It isnt a little like that. CS is like that. UT is like that. NC is not like that. The Trade skills are not a "small part" of this game. Hacking is not a "small part" of this game. This game is not dedicated soley to PvP, it isn't supposed to be solely to PvP. With that in mind, there are "MANY" other factors that weight toward game and class balance. If you don't like the weakness a class has, then don't play it. It is truely that simple, it is just that easy. Im tired of these stupid posts about game balance, made by people who very clearly have no clue what "game balance" even means.

Shadow Dancer

19-03-04, 01:09

Jack we're mainly talking about pvp balance. Of course that's not all there is to the game, but when it comes to class(not game) balance that's the biggest issue. I would say pvm comes second. But that's just my opinion.

Can you please tell me, what are the other types of balance or factors you usually consider that you think people ignore?

Scikar

19-03-04, 01:12

And I'm tired of these stupid posts where you talk in code try to make everyone look narrow minded.

So come on, enlighten me. Since you clearly have such a greater grasp of what NC is all about, and since you are so proud to say so, tell me, just what am I missing out on? When I play this game, as I fight people, as I try to act in character, as I hunt and level, as I perform tradeskills, when I talk to people, when I do anything, tell me EXACTLY what part of class balance am I missing?

Class balance, to me, can be expressed in terms of 3 areas:

PvP
PvM
Tradeskills.

You tell me what I'm missing.

JackScratch

19-03-04, 01:30

Gee, lets see, I realy shouldn't have to list these off, but I will, not all, cause that would, in fact, be imposible, but for a start:

CST - Spy 1 All other classes 0

Range - even before they screwed the unholy hell outa the modules, spies had that one, now, they have it in spades.

Stealth - I hear that PEs can stealth, but that what they get is hardly worth what they have to do.

What exactly do you think balance means, that they change the classes till you say "when"? That they ask you what class you would like to have everything then put it on? Or maybe the classes will be balanced when you recognise it, like the King recogniseing the independance of other countries.

I realy didn't want to make the list above, because I know what happens after this post. Next, you describe exactly how each of the things I listed make no difference, and that Im a noob for even thinking that I know what balance is, because clearly I never PvP and have no interest in it. Ive been in these arguements before, I know how they work. You will say anything you want, regardless of pertinance, truth, accuracy, or logic, that says what you have decided is true, is.

BTW - Just becuase you dont think the fact that spies are the only class that is truely cxompetent at tradeskilling is important to class balance, doesnt mean it isn't.

Glok

19-03-04, 01:33

Originally posted by JackScratch
You will say anything you want, regardless of pertinance, truth, accuracy, or logic, that says what you have decided is true, is. Which is exactly what you did in your competely pointless post. You are hereby the very first person I have ever had to ignore on any forum. Congratulations.

JackScratch

19-03-04, 01:33

Thank god I wont have to deal with him again.

Estabin

19-03-04, 02:31

Everything you stated has to do with either PvP, PvM, or tradeskilling o_O what are you on about? In a game as complex (as you have stated over and over again and tryed to explain to us unwashed masses) and long term, character balance and game balance is always going to be an issue. Every MMoRPG I have played has always had issues with class balance since it is always going through changes.

We are an integral part of the system since we invest so much time into the game... why shouldn't we discuss balance? Wouldn't it be best to get the information from the people who have the most knowlege of the game and have invested the most time doing those things you have mentioned? Yes, you have to sort through the self interested posts that some people do, but a lot of people have some genuine concerns and insights and should be able to voice them.

Scikar

19-03-04, 02:50

Originally posted by JackScratch
Gee, lets see, I realy shouldn't have to list these off, but I will, not all, cause that would, in fact, be imposible, but for a start:

CST - Spy 1 All other classes 0

Range - even before they screwed the unholy hell outa the modules, spies had that one, now, they have it in spades.

Stealth - I hear that PEs can stealth, but that what they get is hardly worth what they have to do.

Yep, you saw it coming, and here it is. PE constructors are just as possible as spy constructors. They are also reported to be better, some people believe PEs get better slots. I think Mingeroo had a PE constructor.

If you go back just one page, you'll see me and Ehyuko discussing the long range on some Tank weapons. At 500m, they are almost hitting the clipping plane. The only ones hitting further are rifle spies, and surely you would agree that there would be no point in rifles if they did not have the longest range, since they don't excel anywhere else?

You 'hear' that PEs can get stealth? Mate, I KNOW they can get stealth. That's what qualifies me when talking about balance. I SAY SO when I KNOW something, and I SAY SO when I THINK something. I don't pretend to know something I don't, and I don't talk about things I haven't experienced for myself.

PEs can, for your information, use stealth merely by gaining +5 INT from imps. The DEX cap for a PE is 80, the req for stealth 1 is 90. Special Forces CPU and a backbone takes care of that, and that's before Exp Ballistic Weapon 3. The T-C req I'm uncertain of, but it is lower than that required for Judge, RoG, and also BlackSun, therefore any high-tech PE wishing to use a rare tech weapon or the highest level non-rare tech weapons has sufficient T-C. The INT req is satisfied with the simple addition of the Special Forces CPU. However this is almost always included with an Experimental Ballistic Weapon Chip 3. If an SF is unavailable (and they are far from difficult to obtain) then a Neural 2 will suffice, albeit providing little further bonus. The reason for this being that a PE can only achieve reasonable defence using medium protection belts, primarily the Medium Energy Protection Belt, at INT 66. So you see, by merely adding two standard combat imps, and setting himself up to use standard high-tech weaponry, the PE automatically enables himself to use Stealth 1. Not exactly hard now was it? o_O

What exactly do you think balance means, that they change the classes till you say "when"? That they ask you what class you would like to have everything then put it on? Or maybe the classes will be balanced when you recognise it, like the King recogniseing the independance of other countries.

Balance means you don't automatically lose every fight as a result of playing a certain class which should be viable, and you don't automatically win a certain fight by playing a different class. It means every class has a use, a position in which they work, that makes people play that class without being put at an unfair disadvantage. If I were so close minded as to believe balance is only defined by me, then I wouldn't be here, I'd be in-game on the trade channels telling everyone how important I was. :rolleyes:

I realy didn't want to make the list above, because I know what happens after this post. Next, you describe exactly how each of the things I listed make no difference, and that Im a noob for even thinking that I know what balance is, because clearly I never PvP and have no interest in it. Ive been in these arguements before, I know how they work. You will say anything you want, regardless of pertinance, truth, accuracy, or logic, that says what you have decided is true, is.

Ah yes. You read a post based on truth, logic, knowledge, and experience, reply with a post based on hearsay, guesswork, and being confrontational, and then tell me that I'm discounting your logic? :lol:

BTW - Just becuase you dont think the fact that spies are the only class that is truely cxompetent at tradeskilling is important to class balance, doesnt mean it isn't.

And just because you think killing someone from an enemy faction on sight is wrong, does not mean it is. That works both ways, the difference is, I back up what I say with facts. You do not.

A PPU can reasonably skill implant without restricting his combat effectiveness, enough to poke MC5 chips. He can also skill enough hack to hack an OP, again without gimping himself. A Pistol PE, similarly, can skill both implant and hacking. If a PE or monk so desires, he can choose to be a constructor, or a researcher. He will reduce his combat effectiveness in doing so, but that is the limitation of his class, a part of balance. If everyone could perform tradeskills easily, spies wouldn't live up to their names. Every class can drive the lower level vehicles, and Monks can manage Rhinos without problems. Some vehicles, such as the Combat Trike, are aimed at PEs. Recycle is common amongst Tanks, and also repair.

So what if spies are the best class at constructing? Someone has to be. Tanks are the best at using heavy weapons, do spies complain? Monks are the best with PSI weapons, do Tanks complain? Spies are able to tradeskill so well because their weapon speciality, DEX weapons, is shared with PEs. Tradeskill excellency is the balancing factor here, otherwise all spies might as well be PEs.

I'm still going here, so come on. What other balance points have I missed in my infinite stupidity? :rolleyes:

JackScratch

19-03-04, 04:05

So let me get this straight, Spies are the best with Dex weapons and at Int Trade skills, aka most of them, the important ones anyway, and you dont regard that as more than just a small class edge. If what I just said is accurate, then please, dont resond to anything I submit to the forums ever again.

Tell me, oh guruu of stealth, what is the highest stealth module a PE could posibly use? what would a PE have to sacrifice to use the top rare stealth?

None of this matters because what I am saying, and you are ignoreing is that the list I made is a tiny fraction of all the things to consider, and you wont even consider them, all you will do is argue with them. Im not interested in argueing part of the points. In fact, what I am trying to say, is that I am sick to death of someone like you posting some epic imbalance they have discovered and proven, every damn time they lose a fight, where they are outnumbered in the first place.

It is called whineing, and it is old and sad.

Estabin

19-03-04, 05:47

Hey Jack, before you click on the Community Talk(English) take note of the description

"Discuss about Neocron, other MMORPGs, movies, community issues and other off topic stuff."

take a long hard look at that first part of the description... discuss about Neocron.. who are you to tell the rest of the community how they should discuss it exactly?

The original post was made by someone with a lot of experiance on the game and was perfectly valid until you came in here and started bellyaching, take your own advice maybe?

MegaCorp

19-03-04, 06:48

I confess i consider 99% of the threads on "game balance" totally pointless. Including this one. Why? Because game balance can not be sensibly discussed until you know the fundamental design goals ... how the classes and skills are *supposed* to relate to each other with regard to effectiveness: for offense, defense, and support activities. Otherwise we probably each have our own view of what "game balance" means in Neocron ... our own personal view that may be 100% wrong because it bears no relationship to what the designers are really trying to accomplish.

For example, i have read at least one post where the author believed that balance meant that every individual, of any class, should have a similar/equal chance of killing any other person in the game. And another where tanks should do the supreme damage but have liabilities that can be countered and taken advantage of by other classes, with PPus being next highest damagers, down to PPUs that are a buffing and healing class doing little damage but hardest of all to kill. Both of these obviously cant be right at the same time. What *is* right? I doubt anyone really knows.

What we need is a document from KK that describes their goals for game balance. Then we *can* discuss the realities of what we are experiencing versus the objectives in that document. Without that we are wasting our time. It might be an interesting exercise, maybe even entertaining, but ultimately pointless.

So ... KK ... how about posting a game balance goals document that can be the focus of our discussions from that point forward? That way we can knowingly help you evolve this game successfully ... as oppose to endless rounds of argument and debate with no supporting basis in fact.

Spook

P.S. Ehyuko, love your other points.

JackScratch

19-03-04, 06:56

And here the discussion becomes convoluted, for you see, if every one can say what they want, forum rules not withstanding, then in fact it is clearly my right to tell them not to say it. They are of course within their rights to ignore me, I accept it as a given that they will. Never the less, the constant whineing about the lack of game balance hurts game developement.

see arguements in these forums and in the chat channels in game that should have been solced by proper upbrinings. I think if you look, you will find that the behavior I expect from other people I exibit myself.

1 - I do not cry for game mechanic changes in any way. Game balance is a complicated and convoluted issue, one which cannot be resolved by anything but extensive controlled testing, useing all possible combinations of situations.

2 - I give everyone an equal oportunity to be human, unleashing my scatheing wit on them when they have proven themselves to be children or worse, animals.

3 - I work to better the game through the community and people in it. I debate not for the benifit of my oponent, rather the benifit of those reading the debate, as such I spare no quarter.

Nothing I have said in these forums have drawn blood, rather point out the flaws in people who have no time for self improvement. They should find the time. The battle cry of the simpletons in this game is "it's just a game" but know this, you will be judged by your actions, all of your actions. Any interuption of another humans actions for ones own entertainment is an interuption of their rights, but no one is accountable for standing their ground in a fight all parties have agreed to. And most importantly Words are a violation of no ones rights, you say what you want, even when you are wrong, and I will continue to rebut you with Truth.

Estabin

19-03-04, 09:03

There you have it, there comes a time in an argument when I just shake my head sadly when I realize that I am no longer arguing with someone, I am arguing with there ego. Your disjointed and thin arguments coupled with your contradictions and hypocritical statements in your last (and I put this loosely) statement that you are waxing poetically about your “truth” only show that it isn’t worth arguing with someone who is inflexible in his views and won’t accept anything other than his own “truth” which is a shure sign that the individual in question is immature, which makes me feel silly for getting into the argument in the first place.

The adults will just continue with there conversation while the children cry and whine for attention. Good luck on your crusade to educate people with your “truth”.

Clothing_Option

19-03-04, 19:13

Yes we all know only too well the issues that NC has.
but we make the free choice to play in the NC universe anyway.
SO stfu

JackScratch

19-03-04, 20:27

OK guys, this is starting to stack. I could say something realy clever at this point like "you started it." but why? The fact is, that my "TRUTH" in this thread is that you wouldn't know balance if it came up and bit you on the ass. I would be glad to have anyone show me that I am wrong, but what I will get are incomplete arguements and accounts of isolated incedents which represent a particular combination of effects resulting in an undesireable outcome for the person in question, and that somehow because this uindesireable outcome, in these particular combination of circumstances, all of which are clearly not represented, proves without a doubt, that there is some grosse imbalances in the classes in this game. And you are accuseing me of imatureity? You don't have a damn clue.

Scikar

20-03-04, 02:46

Originally posted by JackScratch
OK guys, this is starting to stack. I could say something realy clever at this point like "you started it." but why? The fact is, that my "TRUTH" in this thread is that you wouldn't know balance if it came up and bit you on the ass. I would be glad to have anyone show me that I am wrong, but what I will get are incomplete arguements and accounts of isolated incedents which represent a particular combination of effects resulting in an undesireable outcome for the person in question, and that somehow because this uindesireable outcome, in these particular combination of circumstances, all of which are clearly not represented, proves without a doubt, that there is some grosse imbalances in the classes in this game. And you are accuseing me of imatureity? You don't have a damn clue.

You just don't get it, do you? You come hear, preaching about how PKing is wrong, how you wouldn't dare engage in a fight with someone by shooting them in the back, how anti-PvP you are.

And then you come here and try to talk about balance?

Read the thread. Go on, read it. Because you clearly haven't. Stop posting the same bullshit in every balance thread about whining, and READ the thread first. When someone dies to a tactic or class which they lack the skills to defeat, they come here and complain about it. That's not a balance thread. That's a whine.

A balance thread occurs, when for example someone, let's say me, notices that in the last 20 OP fights he's been to, there have been no rifle PEs. It leads me to the question, why? And then, is this is a problem, or should it be like this? If it shouldn't occur, then what can we do to fix it?

If you stop listening the sound of your own voice and respond to a thread instead of starting your usual crusade, you might realise this. Instead you're too busy telling everyone that they're not allowed to post like this. That they "wouldn't know balance if it came up and bit you on the ass." I certainly can't see anyone LESS qualified to recognise balance than you.

Glok

20-03-04, 02:48

Scikar, please don't quote him, I have him on ignore for a reason. Namely, his posts give me a headache.

Egeon

20-03-04, 02:51

Originally posted by Glok
Scikar, please don't quote him, I have him on ignore for a reason. Namely, his posts give me a headache.
He's quite funny actually :) Just don't take him serious ;)

Glok

20-03-04, 02:59

Originally posted by Egeon
He's quite funny actually :) Just don't take him serious ;) Maybe you find him funny, but he drives me up the freaking wall. Reminds me of a shady politician that never really says anything but endless streams of bullshit come out of his mouth.

JackScratch

22-03-04, 13:42

You haven't listened to a thing I have said. First of all I have a \nd will shot many in the back. If you believe that is what I am saying, then you have set in your mind who and what I am and stand for, and nothing I say is going to change that. My requirement is reasonable motive beyond simple faction hostilities. If someone has ofended you and knows it, jump em, mob em, I could care less. Im talking about bringing those not interested in PvP into it against their will, no option to stay out ofm it. Now, if you are flat unwilling to talk to other runners, I can see where, to you, that would seem like complete anti PvP, but I assue\re you it isn't. The only thing I demand is that you actualy bother to operate like a human being instead of roaming NC looking for red brackets to Gank.

On the subject of balance, I don't believe I ever said that I knew how to achieve balance. In fact I believe what I have said time and time again, to no avail, is that balance is too complicated for players to define, and that is for the ones who actualy put a fair, scientific aproach to it, all 2 of them. The ones who get killed by superior numbers and decide that means that some class is grossely imbalanced should just flat lose there forum privledges on the grounds that they have nothing intelligent to say, and are therefore a waist of everyones time.

Im a carebear (meaning I am against those who Gank, although the Ganker mentality has decided that all caarebears are against any PvP, and anyone who is against Random/Faction PKing is a carebear, therefore I am against all PvP, thus showing that Gankers are, in fact, morons.) and you believe that because I am a carebear I have no say in the subject of balance, of course you add to that the fact that you have decided that balance is solely a subject of PvP, which doesn't help your case either. Balance, class balance is, and should be, based on all possible class abilities and the weight they carry in the game. When we start seeing heavy (I mean like 75%) percentages of the runners in the game are one particular class, then you might be able (might) to bandy about the subject of balance. But untill that time, you are all whiners, looking to gain an advantage over the other classes by mass posting to the forums, a plague this game has suffered from for entirely too long.

BTW, I have found someone less qualified than me to judge balance, he's in your bathroom mirror.

Originally posted by Scikar
You just don't get it, do you? You come hear, preaching about how PKing is wrong, how you wouldn't dare engage in a fight with someone by shooting them in the back, how anti-PvP you are.

And then you come here and try to talk about balance?

Read the thread. Go on, read it. Because you clearly haven't. Stop posting the same bullshit in every balance thread about whining, and READ the thread first. When someone dies to a tactic or class which they lack the skills to defeat, they come here and complain about it. That's not a balance thread. That's a whine.

A balance thread occurs, when for example someone, let's say me, notices that in the last 20 OP fights he's been to, there have been no rifle PEs. It leads me to the question, why? And then, is this is a problem, or should it be like this? If it shouldn't occur, then what can we do to fix it?

If you stop listening the sound of your own voice and respond to a thread instead of starting your usual crusade, you might realise this. Instead you're too busy telling everyone that they're not allowed to post like this. That they "wouldn't know balance if it came up and bit you on the ass." I certainly can't see anyone LESS qualified to recognise balance than you.

Scikar

22-03-04, 13:50

No Jack. I think you're a carebear because you would rather KK enforce people to play the game the way you think it should be played, instead of doing something in-game yourself. That's where I see the difference between you and me. I don't shoot newbs either, and I don't go out hunting every single faction enemy just to shoot them while they're crippled by a mob. But I accept that it's a realistic part of the game, and you don't.

If you're not qualified to talk about balance, and players aren't, then who is? The devs, who barely get time to play the game at all?

PPUs are still the deciding factor in PvP, and that is unbalanced, and that is what I seek to rectify. No sane person would go to an OP fight against 10 opponents without PPU backup, whether his side had 10 fighters or not. It's simply an impossible fight. It's got nothing to do with being outnumbered or outskilled, and until PPUs are balanced I will keep posting, whether you like it or not.

JackScratch

22-03-04, 14:06

Hi, I'm JackScratch, clearly we have never met and you have never read anything I have written before. Just for the record, I am against most, if not all, game mechanics alterations. I have stated that I am against game mechanics alterations many many times. Now, I am realy sorry that ruins the effectiveness of your entire post, but that can't be helped. It is not my fault that you are constantly wrong. My entire campain is in game, it is a political move to influence runners to behave like human beings and my efforts have met with great success.

If this game were solely about OP fights then it would be called CS and I would not be playing it. If you are soooo certain that OP fights are decided by PPUs, then why dont you put together a pure PPU OP team and prove your point? In fact, I have asked before, why is it that not one group has put together a APU/PPU OP team and owned every OP on even one server? Why is that? I mean Im certain it isn't because you are WRONG because that simply isn't possible, is it?

Who is qualified to decide balance? All thing being equal, I still give it to the devs, even with limited game play time, they still put more, and better thought into it than your average runner. Honestly, I wouldn't mind some well thought out discussions on the forums about balance. They haven't happened yet, but if they did, I wouldn't realy mind. I am simply sick of the same old bandwagoning retoric that I always see, "nerf this nerf that, this is too powerful, that needs some loveing, 15 APU killed me in like 10 minutes, that's is stoopid uber." And bar none this thread is no acception. It was started by a runner whineing about haveing been killed by an APU/PPU duo to his one spy, please show me any way that this could represent an imbalance. An imbalance would have bben if they couldn't kill him. and even then I would want a lot more details.( I amend, that was a different thread, still doesn't change the fact that all balance threads say the same things. The starter of this particular thread wants all the classes identical, save different grafix, oh, the trade skills can stay the same, after all, they don't matter)

You think I am a carebear, because you dont listen.

Originally posted by Scikar
No Jack. I think you're a carebear because you would rather KK enforce people to play the game the way you think it should be played, instead of doing something in-game yourself. That's where I see the difference between you and me. I don't shoot newbs either, and I don't go out hunting every single faction enemy just to shoot them while they're crippled by a mob. But I accept that it's a realistic part of the game, and you don't.

If you're not qualified to talk about balance, and players aren't, then who is? The devs, who barely get time to play the game at all?

PPUs are still the deciding factor in PvP, and that is unbalanced, and that is what I seek to rectify. No sane person would go to an OP fight against 10 opponents without PPU backup, whether his side had 10 fighters or not. It's simply an impossible fight. Until that is changed I will keep posting, whether you like it or not.

Scikar

22-03-04, 15:58

I'm not going to bother digging up threads where you've said people should lose SL simply for killing a runner of lower rank. But I'm sure you'll remember it.

Balance won';t come about from whining when people get killed, but that doesn't mean we can't have a reasonable discussion in the same thread. There are unreasonable people on both sides of the fence. Ask Carinth, Psycho Killa, .cyl0n about how they feel about their PPUs. There's clearly something wrong, or the devs wouldn't be introducing antibuff bullets. But as soon as anyone suggests balance about anything, before they can even justify it they get flamed by people who like things as they are. Take away those people and I'll give you a reasonable discussion.

EDIT: And BTW, Cartel currently own the vast majority of OPs on Saturn, and when they attack they do so with a flood of monks. I'll see if I can find the screenies of ND when we took most of the OPs using only PPUs and APUs. The only other class you see atm are Tanks, there are only spies to hack and certainly no PEs.

JackScratch

22-03-04, 16:05

No, the gamer mentality is what wont allow these discussions.

I have always been against game mechanics change, I may have begrudgeingly offered alternative changes in the past, but I am always for change within game. Now Im certain you can take all my posts and paint a beutiful "out of context" picture of me that suits any pourpose you have, Go ahead. That doesn't change anything I have, or am, saying.

The Devs can decide what changes they feel they need to make, but Im fine withthe game mechanics just the way they are. Any changes I might feel would benifit the game are not worth the problems that would inevitably acompany them.

Game balance from the runners perspective will never exist. Game balance with any semblance of realism already does. Constant changes as responces to the pathetic whineing on the forums do nothing but hurt this game. The oner critisism I do have of Dev alterations, is that the must be made in small incriments over time. You can't make giant chages to game mechanics and not expect the environment to remain desireable. It becomes a lesson in futility.

Originally posted by Scikar
I'm not going to bother digging up threads where you've said people should lose SL simply for killing a runner of lower rank. But I'm sure you'll remember it.

Balance won';t come about from whining when people get killed, but that doesn't mean we can't have a reasonable discussion in the same thread. There are unreasonable people on both sides of the fence. Ask Carinth, Psycho Killa, .cyl0n about how they feel about their PPUs. There's clearly something wrong, or the devs wouldn't be introducing antibuff bullets. But as soon as anyone suggests balance about anything, before they can even justify it they get flamed by people who like things as they are. Take away those people and I'll give you a reasonable discussion.