View Full Version : KK the SL system again, things don't work
There is many people unhappy with the results of the current system ReaKKtor, if anything it says that something is wrong, that it doesn't work.
Player Killers, PvPers and LE people are all unhappy.
SOULLIGHT
SL is not roleplay now, it is not a prevention measure, it is not a way of living. SL is a stupid game mechanic that everybody avoids. The penalties for being a true criminal are so insane, that implementing them as it should be would cause madness and players quitting.
SL doesn't exist in the game, it is a small insect that you kill with a fast mission. Capped players get bored because there is no roleplay, there are no real consequences for our actions... You have to give players something to enjoy in their actions KK, you have to give players a way to really feel the meaning of what they do.
When a capped player is bored the game gets extremely dangerous... instead roleplaying the SL system, people consider the crime something 'funny' to do when they are bored, name it killing newbs in plaza sewers, blowing a vehicle, murdering in Peeper Park... all actions without consequences, all empty actions, meaningless.
Inside the city
The atmosphere of this cyberpunkish game enforces a harsh world, but in every sense. The only punishment for the most insignificant crime is the death, yet you have players that go down into the sewers and cellars in the heart of the city... and player kill there without consequences. And what do the copbots... nothing. Murders happen in Peeper Park to see 2 minutes later the assasin wandering around Plaza... and again nothing happens.
Wastelands
Being in a City faction or in a Wastelands Based Faction means nothing. Where is the difference that separates players of both life styles.. I can't see it. Hunting inside the city limits or in the OutZone is not encouraged... there are the same risks by hunting at Chester or J-01 than in aggy cellars. On top of that the considered 'vetteran' factions start with a law enforcer O_o
The wastelands are the home of the hunters, but I just see the prey. Criminals should use the wastelands to live, yet they go to Plaza-2. Murdering in the wastelands is relieved of certain responsabilities, but not stripped of all sense like now. You kill a Reeza afiliated, you are a criminal. You terrorize Reeza's citizens vehicles, you are a criminal, you are ENEMY of Reeza, then you are a criminal... enemy factions have their combat ground in the wastelands, criminals earn they life in wastelands, bounty hunters make a living hunting them where ever they are.
With the current system 'good' capped players don't have a work, and eventually they turn doing something 'funny', like killing newbs. This is the result of 'evil' capped players not existing, no one is a criminal because it is unviable... but even worse, it is avoidable.
You complain because the game is full of senseless acts, blame yourselves and your system. What else can we do... the game law system has an insane potential, with differenciation between faction sympaties and crimes, but it is not exploited... it doesn't envelop every game-style as it could do.
....................................................
No matter what we do, but it needs some sense. Random behaviours are the result of non-existant consequences for them. You put a way without resistance, and then you wonder why people choose it... so naive are you?
All in all KK, GM interventions, banns, out-game enforcing rules, magic harsh measures... these are not the answers. The REAL answer is in the players themselves, look why we act like we do, stop hearing our whinnes, stop hearing our insults or harrassements. Just watch us act and everything will be clear. We are not those in-game avatars, we are persons, and persons always look for guides to walk between. We are lost and therefore we look for the path in our own way.
I'd like a game without in-game actions whines, where every action has a reason to be made and consequences to face. We can like or dislike the game balance or content, but in-game actions flowing the forums is a sign of problems.
Re-work the SL system KK, if I choose to join a faction I have to pay 300.000 cr and do lots of missions to gain sympaty (or killing enemies of that faction). If I kill innocent citizens I have to do 'few' fast missions... something is wrong here. You know what is wrong, the current penalties would make anything else too hard. I'm sure you guys can think better than this.
This was my constructive critic for today.
Remove all Plaver stats from normal display exept name of the players. all other stats must be discovered by special (eye,brain)implants or hacking.
it sucks like hell to be killed because the other one is simply better and dont need skill to tell that im a foe.
shodanjr_gr
14-03-04, 20:38
Originally posted by msdong
Remove all Plaver stats from normal display exept name of the players. all other stats must be discovered by special (eye,brain)implants or hacking.
it sucks like hell to be killed because the other one is simply better and dont need skill to tell that im a foe.
No way. Noobs get ganged enough as it is. Now if there was no way to distinguish between the noob and the non-noob the ganging would get out of hand.
Originally posted by Sleawer
There is many people unhappy with the results of the current system ReaKKtor, if anything it says that something is wrong, that it doesn't work.
Player Killers, PvPers and LE people are all unhappy.
SOULLIGHT
SL is not roleplay now, it is not a prevention measure, it is not a way of living. SL is a stupid game mechanic that everybody avoids. The penalties for being a true criminal are so insane, that implementing them as it should be would cause madness and players quitting.
SL doesn't exist in the game, it is a small insect that you kill with a fast mission. Capped players get bored because there is no roleplay, there are no real consequences for our actions... You have to give players something to enjoy in their actions KK, you have to give players a way to really feel the meaning of what they do.
When a capped player is bored the game gets extremely dangerous... instead roleplaying the SL system, people consider the crime something 'funny' to do when they are bored, name it killing newbs in plaza sewers, blowing a vehicle, murdering in Peeper Park... all actions without consequences, all empty actions, meaningless.
Inside the city
The atmosphere of this cyberpunkish game enforces a harsh world, but in every sense. The only punishment for the most insignificant crime is the death, yet you have players that go down into the sewers and cellars in the heart of the city... and player kill there without consequences. And what do the copbots... nothing. Murders happen in Peeper Park to see 2 minutes later the assasin wandering around Plaza... and again nothing happens.
Wastelands
Being in a City faction or in a Wastelands Based Faction means nothing. Where is the difference that separates players of both life styles.. I can't see it. Hunting inside the city limits or in the OutZone is not encouraged... there are the same risks by hunting at Chester or J-01 than in aggy cellars. On top of that the considered 'vetteran' factions start with a law enforcer O_o
The wastelands are the home of the hunters, but I just see the prey. Criminals should use the wastelands to live, yet they go to Plaza-2. Murdering in the wastelands is relieved of certain responsabilities, but not stripped of all sense like now. You kill a Reeza afiliated, you are a criminal. You terrorize Reeza's citizens vehicles, you are a criminal, you are ENEMY of Reeza, then you are a criminal... enemy factions have their combat ground in the wastelands, criminals earn they life in wastelands, bounty hunters make a living hunting them where ever they are.
With the current system 'good' capped players don't have a work, and eventually they turn doing something 'funny', like killing newbs. This is the result of 'evil' capped players not existing, no one is a criminal because it is unviable... but even worse, it is avoidable.
You complain because the game is full of senseless acts, blame yourselves and your system. What else can we do... the game law system has an insane potential, with differenciation between faction sympaties and crimes, but it is not exploited... it doesn't envelop every game-style as it could do.
....................................................
No matter what we do, but it needs some sense. Random behaviours are the result of non-existant consequences for them. You put a way without resistance, and then you wonder why people choose it... so naive are you?
All in all KK, GM interventions, banns, out-game enforcing rules, magic harsh measures... these are not the answers. The REAL answer is in the players themselves, look why we act like we do, stop hearing our whinnes, stop hearing our insults or harrassements. Just watch us act and everything will be clear. We are not those in-game avatars, we are persons, and persons always look for guides to walk between. We are lost and therefore we look for the path in our own way.
I'd like a game without in-game actions whines, where every action has a reason to be made and consequences to face. We can like or dislike the game balance or content, but in-game actions flowing the forums is a sign of problems.
Re-work the SL system KK, if I choose to join a faction I have to pay 300.000 cr and do lots of missions to gain sympaty (or killing enemies of that faction). If I kill innocent citizens I have to do 'few' fast missions... something is wrong here. You know what is wrong, the current penalties would make anything else too hard. I'm sure you guys can think better than this.
This was my constructive critic for today.
Agreed, agreed.
The one thing that drives me nuts the most, is the fact that if you kill a Runner who attacked YOU first, then it is YOU who loses the SL?????? Where is the balanced, fairness in that? I'm on my APU, some Spy PP guy tries to kill me from afar with his rifle, luckily I catch sight of him in the distance and run over and attack back. A fight develops, in the end I killed him, and lost a shitload of fucking SL. What the hell is up with that? If you are allied/neutral to the other guy, you can attack them safely in the knowledge that as long as you don't kill them (just piss them off) they will kill you and take a massive SL hit. Sure I can run missions to raise the SL again, but why should I need to do that for defending myself?
Also, I think people shouldn't be able to use the GR if they have just attacked. Make it a flag/timer for a minute or two so they have to follow through with what they have just actioned, or attempt to run away via usual means (their own two feet). Instead of being able to GR hop when the fight gets tough.
Edited - I don't want to confuse people with direct ideas.
Originally posted by shodanjr_gr
.. Now if there was no way to distinguish between the noob and the non-noob the ganging would get out of hand.
i think you are saver them now. you have to see it in a possibe whole new picture. if someone wants to kill you he have to KNOW if you are the right faction, have the right SL and the right level.
when it matter what you sympatys are then you think twice to kill an unknown target.
nobody care if you are a noob when you travel @ CRP. you get killed by some ass anyway and get told to be lucky because its a nodrop zone.
90% of all players hate this SL system its not even viable to hunt or get hunted in this game, because you cant really get evil. 5 item drop sucks to who want to drop all their stuff just because they are evil? Isnt the city ban enough or just take away the safe slot..... or make them drop in warzones to!
Organics I understand your frustration in that case, but people learn. People learn to not go have red SL inside the city or they won't make out alive. That's the same situation, if someone is stupid enought to kill you inside the law enforced zones (i.e. guarded by copbots), he's going to die after straight that.
Think that it is much worse now, people can kill wherever they want without real consequences. What we cannot do is ask for consequences for them, but not for us.
The idea also is improving the system. FS and SL are two features completely unused in the game. What I am proving is that SL can protect citizens inside their Cities, in their homes, in the law enforced areas. Faction Sympathy can protect faction members outside the city limits, in the wastelands.
We have an SL most wanted list for criminals.
We can have an FS most wanted list, for faction crimes.
It's possible to encourage an entire faction to protect their members by the use of an FS list. The same way it's possible to instil fear for those that consider 'funny' to terrorize someone's vehicle or kill a factioned runner. You kill a faction runner or harm his possesions, you are going to pay for it, you are going to give account for your actions to the other faction runners.
Then it is possible to work for your faction, to feel yourself as a part of it. Real faction missions, clan or single runner missions based on the behaviours of other factions, enemies or allies. The enemy also has to fear his actions, he has to realize of them and take his decisions with complete consequences.
some ppl are afraid of numbers that make them less leet and prevent the killing of others without other skills them "pull trigger"
Yea I get the point msdong, it's not like everyone is going to zerg criminals at once... the idea is keeping busy capped players between themselves.
All the people doing the same and going in the same direction is not good; that people should be able to take different paths, roles that eventually collide between themselves and keep people busy.
You know what the bleedin' problem is?
SL was supposed to reward people with higher soullight killing lower soullight people.
A major bug in the system pretty much makes anyone with high soullight fall and crash back down if they mess up once, even with a red soullight person fighting them.
That should be fixed before we give them anymore ideas concerning this subject.
If you kill people with bad SL, even in a hunting ground, you don't lose SL.
In the same way I agree that even if you have 100 SL, if you mess up once your SL should go to the botton. You can be a very honest person of the society, but if you kill someone then you are fucked no matter how good you were.
In fact what I point with this thread are two things. One that SL penalties are too hard, hence people avoid the criminal role like a plage; the other is that people commiting crimes do not get enought SL hit... one crime should be enought to make you a criminal, for the same reason you are allowed to commit it you are going to be punished greatly.
Understood wholeheartedly.
But yeah, aside from Warzones and Hunting grounds, here's what I'm talking about.
100 soullight person kills another 100 soullight person....victim probably has high faction symphs all around, and most likely is a (psuedo-)paladin (has done at least almost all the epics...).
Yes, absolutely, that person should go piss off in the red zone and get shot. Well, maybe not; maybe, MAYBE it was temporary insanity or a mistake. But usually, yes and absolutely, even the top soullight people should get (a) huge dent(s) in their soullight and repent for whatever they did.
Here's the flipside of the coin:
100 soullight person kills a red soullight person. Person probably is an intentional terrorizer and most likely would be anti-city (this is just an example, btw). Killer might be killing the red soullight person as a duty to the people.
That killer will end up in the red with the current bugs, and if they're lucky they'll just get a huge dent...
I appreciate the changes you want to make, but I sincerely believe this error should be fixed first.
The bug may have a slightly complex code than what I may be saying here, so I'll just sum it up:
-If it gets fixed, people with average soullight can do small acts of crime without getting overall fucked up. By average I mean like 25 soullight to 50 soullight. Those people are most likely people that don't show their criminal activities and build a front to curb visual notice, i.e. Corrupt politicians.
-It will allow people with good/holy soullight to actually feel easier about going on crusades against the bad/evil soullights.
Let's face it, there are two sides to the coin of SL.
One is that Neocron and its city is aligned by the soullight system because of this, and the SL system in my view is supposed to give an accurate vision of who's pro-city and who's anti-city. The way SL is bugged currently does not and can not reflect this.
The other side of the coin is, hell, I'm even afraid to go bother the Skull Cult as a Chran Sectman because I know when I'm done with them, or even after one kill, my SL will be shot to hell. Soullight should also help determine who of the factions really are good and who really are bad. The bug kills this side also.
Yes, I want the criminals to do their activity without being agitated about their soullight. Yes, I want the good guys to be rewarded instead of be dropped into the red when they go after criminals.
That's why I want this bug fixed. It will make implementation of your ideas so much easier.
I think some people miss what soullight was designed to do, it was originally put in as a game mechanic to prevent random PKing. Punish people for doing it is it's job. I fail to see where the system isn't working.
It's performing it's original intention. It's not a measure of being a criminal or not. It's a mechanic to stop people from being fucktards.
1. Remove player faction/SL/rank and leave name/clan. This WOULDNT result in more newb ganks, CAUSE YOU HAVE TO KNOW THEY ARE A NEWB FIRST. This also would increase RP some, in that you would have to know which clans are in which faction, and then possibly remember runner's names and such. No more random killing cause red = dead. If you want to kill an enemy, learn who your enemies are. Justification of actions.
2. Change neg SL drops. Maybe remove safeslot or whatever, but 5 items is too much.
3. Dont have SL penalties in places where SL rules cannot be enforced. Wastelands should be a haven for criminals. Only places where SL rules could theoretically be monitored and enforced should have the SL rules apply. 2 runners meet out in the wastelands, in a random sector, they should have to suffer factional penalties but not SL penalties.
4. Have kills result in a constant SL drop, or at least on a sliding scale. If I work my SL up to 70, and while caving accidentally kill a newb with 10 SL, I shouldnt drop to a negative number right away.
5. FS with a faction, not the simple allied/neutral status, determines how those factional guards treat you. You kill your own faction, your own faction guards attack you. There would have to be a way of raising your own FS though in a reasonable manner.
The main thing I want is something like an "aggressor" flag. If someone attacks you, they have some sort of flag tripped that tells the game that if you kill them, you take no SL/FS hit because you were defending yourself.
Case in point: I was up at El Farid last night and a Tangent idiot (I'm Tangent too, currently) attacked me "for wasting his time" (he was going to go to the Graves with my team) while waiting for another member of the team to get there. So I dutifully smack him down and what do I get? -6 SL and an insane drop in FS. That's just fucked up.
As I said, if you kill someone who attacks you first, there should be NO PENALTY as you were simply defending yourself.
--Stryfe
Kenjuten I did not know of that bug. Actually I killed yellow SL players myself even in hunting grounds and haven't lost SL. And the last time we killed a red SL player we gained SL lol. Anyway you should report it in the Forum Bugtracker, afaik if you kill red SL players the game is intended to give you positive SL points. That's another thread tho.
Precisely Mattimeo, people still can random PK, in fact with the current system you can avoid completely its penalties, so bored people is encouraged to this.
I remember a very different SL system in the beginning too, it needed some tweaks, but less than now.
•Super|\|ova•
15-03-04, 19:42
I pay the consequences of killing ppl who and where I feel like it and I don't mind about the SL. Only thing that would need fixing is the fact that when you kill a neutral faction member the SL loss should be half of the loss when you kill an allied faction member.
What consequences you pay?
•Super|\|ova•
15-03-04, 19:45
Originally posted by Sleawer
What consequences you pay?
Red SL = the risk to drop your valuable shit.
So you get RED SL for killing people?
I certainly don't... in fact I can't see more than one or two guys in their appts with red SL. Mistakes if what they commited to be in that state.
But I would not say that only one or two guys kill.
The truth is that you don't pay any consequences, you can avoid them and you do it. Like everyone else. If the system worked properly....
1- People would not be able to avoid the consequences for their actions
2- The consequences would not be insanely unviable to anyone that want to play the criminal role.
Next time read a bit more than the tittle of the thread.
•Super|\|ova•
15-03-04, 19:51
Criminal's role shouldn't be easy. That's the point. If you can't handle the SL loss then bugger off.
You keep missing the point, the criminal role at the moment IS easy... so easy that it doesn't exist, because people just avoid the consequences. Hence the reason it doesn't work.
Dude, seriously read the first post. You have completely lost the topic.
ps: so in fact, if YOU can't handle the SL loss then bugger off, at the moment there is NO SL loss.
•Super|\|ova•
15-03-04, 20:05
Originally posted by Sleawer
You keep missing the point, the criminal role at the moment IS easy... so easy that it doesn't exist, because people just avoid the consequences. Hence the reason it doesn't work.
Dude, seriously read the first post. You have completely lost the topic.
ps: so in fact, if YOU can't handle the SL loss then bugger off, at the moment there is NO SL loss.
You don't get it do ya?
1. I lose SL when I kill ppl who are green or yellow to me (usually in PP or Battle Dome or MB or OZ).
2. It causes me to drop the most of the shit I carry with me if I die.
3. Still I wander around when I have red SL.
4. I've lost a moonie and a CS and other stuff because of that. All it needs is just someone to take me down and get the belt hacked.
So what do still want? People with red SL automaticly throwing their shit around where ever they go? If you make the conequences more harsh (like double or triple the SL loss or make the lose even more) then you certainly have a smaller chance to see one of the ppl who have red SL and you also will see less players in general. Try to be objective. IMO the system is almost perfect as it is now.
And the whining thing... if you like it then get on it, if you don't like it just ignore it. If you can't handle it... well, then online games aren't for you. There are always ppl like that around when you're talking about online games or communities no matter you like it or not.
You don't get it do ya?
Look who is talking.
1. I lose SL when I kill ppl who are green or yellow to me (usually in PP or Battle Dome or MB or OZ).
That is your decision. If you *really* do this, then any change won't affect you or your gameplay. For the rest and majority of the community, killing allies or neutrals doesn't have any penalization.
2. It causes me to drop the most of the shit I carry with me if I die.
Again this is just your case. ALL the others avoid this system. You should be happy, here we are trying to instil the same features for everyone, not just for you.
3. Still I wander around when I have red SL.
I doubt it, or you would be completely broke. You will wander around for a time, then do some missions and back to the normality. The rest don't even go into red SL.
4. I've lost a moonie and a CS and other stuff because of that. All it needs is just someone to take me down and get the belt hacked.
If you played half of your gameplay in red SL, you would lose much more than a CS or MS.
So what do still want? People with red SL automaticly throwing their shit around where ever they go? If you make the conequences more harsh (like double or triple the SL loss or make the lose even more) then you certainly have a smaller chance to see one of the ppl who have red SL and you also will see less players in general. Try to be objective. IMO the system is almost perfect as it is now.
The current penalties are too harsh, that's why everyone (except you :rolleyes:) avoids staying in RED SL. It can be avoided completely, so it doesn't work. Get that straight in your head.
So try to be objective yourself, just because YOU decide to stay a bit more than usual in RED SL doesn't mean that the system works.
Stop trolling around and read the topic instead the tittle. You may realize of a couple of things.
And the whining thing... if you like it then get on it, i you don't like it just ignore it. If you can't handle it... well, then online games aren't for you. There are always ppl like that around when you're talking about online games or communities no matter you like it or not.
This makes no sense, I'm not whinning either for both sides. I want things well-done, not half assed. Things can be better handled for both criminals and honest players, and made fun for them.
If you stopped to read between troll and stroll you would have realized of the point of the thread.
About people... well here I am discussing with a person who has not read the thread; doesn't know how to avoid the penalties of the current SL system, and lives in the strong belief that it works for everyone like for himself. No doubt there are persons of every kind, I don't have to go far to find any.
Hackenstein
15-03-04, 20:57
Has anyoen put the suggestion of having a -sl applied if a person at *** comes along and kills a //// newb. No faction application. No clan affiliation. Just plain if the uber guy ganks a newb he losses SL. And make it alot. I think theres a formula that could be worked out but I will think about it.
PS. this is only to protect the newbs. Not to battle uber boredom
past few weeks ive been red SL a few times on my tank, i died twice as red in MB but thankfully my clan mate got my stuff
the problem is you drop all your stuff(as i did the second time)and its like basically time to start again, back to using nibblet weapons.
i belive its going to be changed with DOY but of course that long time to wait:(
I think the SL penalties should be lighter.
I dont agree with some of what Sleawer says, for it SEEMS like he doesnt make any exception for people that get neg SL via non-newb PKing means.
Chaos caves- you cast a barrel spell, some newb melee tank runs through it and dies. You get neg SL. Should you be "punished greatly for committing your crime"??? I would disagree.
But I am not sure that "lighter penaties that are unavoidable" would bring more criminals into the fold than "harsher penaties that are avoidable."
Its almost as if you are upset that there arent more criminals... cause you really want to punish them. :confused:
•Super|\|ova•
15-03-04, 22:13
Everything is up to ourselves so why do you whine then? IMO you're just whining for nothing.
And since this ignorant fellow gamer doesn't believe me I'm not posting in this thread anymore. I'm not going to waste my time on senseless arguments as you do so... see you around.
*gone to eat pizza*
lol Strych.
I wish there was a feature that did not punish for killing mistakes, or that if you are attacked first it is considered as self-defence. But I don't know if it can be coded.
If something like that it's possible, then perfect. If it is not possible you have to work around those features. In example, people in teams do not lose SL by kills between them, perhaps teams' allowed number of runners should be increased, or a way to link various teams in the same SL pool, so no one loses it by killing a newb.
About people being attacked... I can't really think in any work-around; people eventually would learn to not attack others in law enforced areas tho, after all what's the point if you are going to die by copbots and other players after killing your target.
Perhaps setting a feature that made the person drawing a gun in a law enforced area to drop "temporally" his SL to yellow. That way the person acting in self-defense would not lose SL by killing him. But no, it would not work, the killer would not lose SL either.
@SuperNova, don't let the door hit you in the arse.
Heh Sleawer.
It's easy to code in, I'm telling you. In fact, it's already in.
The reason we get shot in the nads into red soullight in certain areas (...sometimes it's okay to make a mistake, in some places you're screwed.), is cuz of the friggin' bug I mentioned earlier.
It's also because I don't know where it's safe to make a mistake like that..but that's my problem. But the bug is why I tend to play solo at the moment. I'm not interested in killing someone by accident and taking the Soullight hit from 76 to -10 or somesuch.
To everyone else:
Sleawer is simply saying that the Soullight system is REALLY fucked up at the moment.
I'm sure everyone can agree on that. :)
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