View Full Version : You win KK, balencing classes.
Every class is pratically equal now, with balencing this game is getting less and less skill based, and more and more "We got more PPUs/Tanks/apus, then your clan we are the pwnzors!!!11"
Now you go to op battles or pk, and the people with more usually win not because of skill but because less of them crash overall, and by taking out or modifying every item in the game that is considered "exploitable" is reducing the factor of a players skill to that of just being another runner at a fight that makes it a battle of attrition not of skill, or team work.
In the past a hybrid with skill and high lvl char with good items, coud usally win battles of 10:1, ie *insert ub3r hybrids of back of the day here* Though a player with crap skill with hybrid could take on 1:1 and always win, as long as thier player skill was being a factor in the battle as in not crashing fataling or my favorite getting a synchozing word a blazened in the middle of your screen so you get to watch yourself die.
Hybrids died, a tank or apu with equal skill can kill the best hybrid of the same skill level, with very little difference on who wins or loses in 1 on 1 battle, but in scales of 10:1 gets ********** or is a decoy.
Time, PPU/APU team could take on 10:1 ratio as a single hybrid could do, but was two people essentially making up the power of the orignal hybrid but in return could take on numbers of 20:1 with the easy abiltiy of spamming holy para on everything that moved, which allowed for glueing on avg the 6 ppus to the ground and every fighter, so the apu could focus and drop one at a time, ie in 5 secs could glue 7 people to the ground and db 1 person while puttin heal on apu.
Parashock barrel also made it easier could cast rapidaly just as fast as apus holy energy barrels or fire barrels while running made it easy to quickly hurt a laruge number of people to weaken them so hl could wreck faster, and keep ppus busy keeping other attackers alive or themselves, also with little or no psi mana useage at all to APU and ppu could cast 3 barrles and 3 para barrles in a matter of seconds with explotiation of terrain could snafu a group fo 10+ easily for 5 secs. Tank weapons only cs/gatling very uselses for most, since you need to have skill to use properly, and it would be very rare to have 10+ people of the best skill all together organized when you can para barrle spam holy para and use terrain to advantage unless you are at and op battle which makes lacks any use of terrain as and advantage of a fight, but instead has everyone in the open, civil war style, not tactically smart.
Present: PPU/APU vs PPU/TANK same skill tank team will win. The inabilty to multi task of parashock only with tl 8 paraschock allows the ppu not able to reduce a players skill to nil with rapid employment of parashock and parabarrles, allows for ppu/apu team not to be effective against 10:1 instaed at best 3:1 reduced quite considerablly in effectiveness.
PPU/TANK can outheal apu dmg, and tank can kill apu easily. And in battle can kill attackers fairly easily and take large ammounts of dmg which in the past the apu relied on the PPUS ability to reduce a large amount of players skill considerably, but can't do so now so apu dies. But tank can take more damage, so doesn't need to rely on PPU instead PPU can parabeam one person and tank can focus on them, but still unable to be effective at killing ppus, as apu could do so.
So in the end, one person ub3r skill is nothing now, unless you have 2 ppus 1 for tank and 1 for apu, and the apu isn't the attacker he is the person who runs away from everyone and the tank is the aggressor, you need 4 people now which is virtually impossible now to find with immense skill and ability to coordinate with othesr to a point where it could be at the solo hybrid winning constantly 10:1 or the PPU/APU team of not to long ago able to do the same as the hybrid but with much much more diffilcutly because 2 people are needed to have skill and coordinatin, now-- Its impossible to find 4 people to become completly coordinated with a great amount of skill to be on consistialny together to be able to take on overwhelming numbers because those 6 ppus you would be fighting with your orignal one ppu can screw youi over with holy para, because they don't have to worry about taking 2+ secs and 200+ mana to cast holy para on your ass, and instaly null all your skill, and watch as you get your ass pounded to you, and you can't do anything, your effectiveness is nowhere near what it was in past patchse.
Go this game is gettin more and more ballenced everyone with thier role, and a war of attrition winning not one of skill.:lol:
notice how there is no mention of PE's or spies?
**** balancing em! Make it rock papers scissors!
Tank vs Psi User
Psi User vs PE
PE VS SPy
Spy beats Tank
Something like that, would be pretty cool if classes were supposed to be good against other classes (come skills wise).
Um.. I read the opening post and didn't understand his point. The game is balanced now becuase skill doesn't matter anymore? That doesn't reward people for practicing or playing a lot... it rewards clans for zerging.
And yeah...
if the game is balanced because apu/ppu vs tank/ppu is almost even, where do the pes and spies go?
Lifewaster
14-03-04, 10:05
Originally posted by Varaem
if the game is balanced because apu/ppu vs tank/ppu is almost even, where do the pes and spies go?
Stealth maybe ? At least that seems to be where they all go when you try to kill em nowadays :p
Originally posted by Lifewaster
Stealth maybe ? At least that seems to be where they all go when you try to kill em nowadays :p
So arguing stealth is part of the balancing then. I remember time when there were no stealth tools. SPYs are considered pvp-droms and PE hijackered every thread about balancing to whine about their inability to kill any other classes than SPY and their own.
Now it's pretty much balanced as you say. PE and even SPY are able to solo a capped tank, even more easiler than one of their own class. You ever fought duel pistole PE vs pistole PE? It could take ages like PPU fighting PPU :)
The only sad thing is, people (mostly tank players) still regard using stealth tool as unfair. Personally I consider it simply as the way PE have to fight against unequal classes. Just like tanks using percing weapons against monks.
Originally posted by Varaem
if the game is balanced because apu/ppu vs tank/ppu is almost even, where do the pes and spies go?
Monks: A brotherhood, made to work together.
Tanks: Built on the model of brotherhood, by Monks for ceres war.
[COMBAT]:All combat pvp's use speed as their main defense and offense.
Spys: Not average citizen, has intelliegence and dexeterity but lacks the jack of all trades of a pe, relies on stealth, range, and not gettin hit.
Pes: Average citizen, made to be self reliant with whatever item at his disposal (Stealth, shileds damge boost), ie not made for large confrontations.
Spys & Pes overthrow Monks with numbers, ie were never equal, they are below monks and tanks.
So your saying a hybrid with "crap skill" should always win 1 vs 1?..........
Yea. I take you were a hybrid and your pissed that your overpowered class actually got put to everyone elses level?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Give me a break.........
•Super|\|ova•
14-03-04, 14:41
Before the last patch we were closer to balanced game than now.
Keyol45743241
14-03-04, 14:51
Originally posted by vTlo
Spys: Not average citizen, has intelliegence and dexeterity but lacks the jack of all trades of a pe, relies on stealth, range, and not gettin hit.
Pes: Average citizen, made to be self reliant with whatever item at his disposal (Stealth, shileds damge boost), ie not made for large confrontations.
Spys & Pes overthrow Monks with numbers, ie were never equal, they are below monks and tanks. W00t! You.... you're a RACIST 8| :rolleyes:
No, for real... this is a GAME. A game with an extreme PvP content, thus BALANCE is the keyword. For all the classes.
Game > Reality
Balance > pseudo RP a la "from the storyline, my char should pwnz yours, 'cuz im a Monkeh"
So cut this crap out that the Spy/whoever is supposed to be a victim of yours. :lol:
I was in NF yesterday with a few different types of player, and to KK's credit the duels almost consistently finished closely.
I read the opening of the first post and I kept telling my self: "Read on maybe the guy has something to say...bullshit....bullshit.....bullshit....omfg how stupid is he?.....bullshit...fuck this"
Basically you're saying that because the classes are balanced you cannot pwnz0r all with your hybrid, that's just über bullshit.
Clownst0pper
14-03-04, 19:45
Balancing issues?
The thing is. I dont think a spy or PE should be able to beat a tank (Easily) as tanks are designed to be the best fighters, PE's and Spys are meant to use other tactics
Like my APU when accompanied by a ppu doesnt have much problems vs tanks, unless his name is zoneseek or a melee retard.
Just anti buff the tank, and theyve fucked it.
SKill is still greater than class types IMHO
Lucid Dream
14-03-04, 20:03
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
Balancing issues?
The thing is. I dont think a spy or PE should be able to beat a tank (Easily) as tanks are designed to be the best fighters, PE's and Spys are meant to use other tactics
Like my APU when accompanied by a ppu doesnt have much problems vs tanks, unless his name is zoneseek or a melee retard.
Just anti buff the tank, and theyve fucked it.
SKill is still greater than class types IMHO
I agree with you to an extent...
Spys should not be able to beat Tanks on the tank's turf, IE a spy should lose in a 1v1 situation, in a closed off area, but Spys SHOULD be able to take a tank on their turf, such as a tank at near clipping distance in a wide open area. Unfortunately, 99% of pvp in this game involves close range fighting in a closed off area (NF, PP, OPs etc) and the only long range shooting a spy ever gets is either A) in very very few ops that have a 'snipable' view of the op, or B) random PKing. Thus, stealth was implemented to give spys a shot in the closer range fighting. Now, if they made these new spirit bullets easier to obtain (build, clone, etc) i would say the spys are balanced pretty well versus the other classes.
Originally posted by Xizor
Basically you're saying that because the classes are balanced you cannot pwnz0r all with your hybrid, that's just über bullshit.
What I'm saying is to take on entire server you need not just a PPU/APU team but PPU/TANK team, which is 4 people, and now its impossible for a team of 4 people to get together consistanently day in day out and be so coordinated and have the skill to beat anyone in a duel everytime, theirfor it is impossible to = the power of the hybrid being able to kill anythign and anyone or even in the past that of the PPU/APU doing the same.
If they got 6 ppus they can sit their SPAMING your ass with holy parlisis while you can't do shit cuz of the mana it takes to para them, so you need FOUR people now to kill anyone and everyone.
How many PPU/APU teams are so good they can kill many now a days vsing much greater numbers?
Or how many PPU/TANK teams are so good they can kill a large force of greater numbers?
What are the odds of getting these two teams together and cooperating so they can kill everything? (Very little)
(Heres the main thing ignore 1vs1 this game is not about 1vs1 anymore but about this team vs that team and your team is only as strong as your weakest link.)
Or maybe we've just reached a point where there are lots of skilled players, and it's rare for a PPU/Tank team to find themselves with 15 very poor skilled enemies in one place?
I really don't get what you're trying to say.
Originally posted by vTlo
Pes: Average citizen, made to be self reliant with whatever item at his disposal (Stealth, shileds damge boost), ie not made for large confrontations.
Spys & Pes overthrow Monks with numbers, ie were never equal, they are below monks and tanks.
Just because of that I will not take anything else you say seriously, and I know alot of other people will not either. You obviously have no idea of balance if you say that the only way a certain class should be able to beat other classes is through sheer weight of numbers. Why then, would people play a class where they know they will find it impossible / extrememly hard to beat other classes when they can just join the herd and play one of the more powerful classes?
[EDIT] Also the storyline has no place in the balancing of this game. If everything was balanced in terms of RP then monks would be able to rip people apart while levitating mid air doing a double backflip with their eyes closed practicing the karma sutra! It would also take 10 + (if not more) tank to take down a single WB. Tanks were not bred as the best fighters, they were bred in numbers, designed to kill far superior foe through SHEER weight of numbers.
Originally posted by Zeph0n
Yea. I take you were a hybrid and your pissed that your overpowered class actually got put to everyone elses level?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Give me a break.........
hybrids arent on the same lvl with others... hybrids are simply a totally fucked up , boring and useless class now.
oh almost forgot ... : :rolleyes:
Shadow Dancer
14-03-04, 22:35
Originally posted by .Cyl0n
hybrids arent on the same lvl with others... hybrids are simply a totally fucked up , boring and useless class now.
oh almost forgot ... : :rolleyes:
Oh come on, you don't find it fun to spend 10+ minutes DBing someone and hitting them just to kill them?
:p
So one person attacks you and you cant kill them so you need four people to do so now?..................
If they have 6 ppus and you expect to win a fight your crazy. In a 1v1 situation all classes are balanced and theirs something wrong with that? The game being balanced would insist that in a 1v1 situation you would not need 4 people to win a fight because both classes would have equal chance to win with skill being equal. So I think you need to make up your mind. Is the game balanced or do you really need 4 people to kill one guy....
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Oh come on, you don't find it fun to spend 10+ minutes DBing someone and hitting them just to kill them?
:p
O M G
Shad agreed with cylon over hybrids 8| 8| 8|
HELL HATH FROZEN OVER THE APOCALYPSE IS NIGH
Originally posted by vTlo
Monks: A brotherhood, made to work together.
Tanks: Built on the model of brotherhood, by Monks for ceres war.
[COMBAT]:All combat pvp's use speed as their main defense and offense.
Spys: Not average citizen, has intelliegence and dexeterity but lacks the jack of all trades of a pe, relies on stealth, range, and not gettin hit.
Pes: Average citizen, made to be self reliant with whatever item at his disposal (Stealth, shileds damge boost), ie not made for large confrontations.
Spys & Pes overthrow Monks with numbers, ie were never equal, they are below monks and tanks.
8| :eek:
o_O
You got issues.
IMO we will not be balanced as long as weapons are usable by anyone. What I mean is that everyone uses lowlvl psi, hybrids use midlvl apu and ppu, pe's use spies tools. You can not balance a system in which one group uses what another group used at a lower level. If you make the lowlvl item strong or weak, it impacts a different group unbalancing them.
The ideal setup in my opinion would be Tanks, Monks, and Spies as the archetypes each with their own unique line of weaponry. PE's do not use any of these weapons, they can't. Instead PE's use combo weapons, derived from merging the archetypes. The PE's the have their own line of unique weaponry which makes them truely joat in that they'll need combinations of archetypes to use their weapons.
I see the Three Types as Technology, Psi, and Combat. Spies would rely on gadgets and technology, not weapons. They would use traps/turrets/and other devices to inflict damage. As such stealth is purely a spy tool. Tanks should be the masters of all things gun related. Wether it's a pistol,rifle,cannon, or even a baseball bat, they should be able to use it. That is the idea of a Tank in Neocron, you put a weapon in their hand and send them off to fight. Lastly the Monks are of course specialized in Psi, and use spells to inflict damage and such.
Under Monks though, there would be a similar split. PPU's and APU's with their own unique lines of spells for defense and offense. Then Hybrids with a unique set of spells derived from combinations of ppu and apu. Things like leech, vampire's kiss, fire shield, etc. If you want to really diversify you can do something similar with Spies, have spies with offensive gadgets and defensive gadgets and then a mixed group.
Then the PE's, as a true JOAT, they would use combinations. For example a pistol that is enhanced with Psi for truely explosive bullets, or maybe speed. A nail grenade to inflict area piercing dmg. Tons of other combinations of psi/tech/weapons are possible.
NC woudl be so much better with a system like that. Currently pe's are gimped spies, yet both are supposed to use guns and actively compete with Tanks on the same playing field. Hybrids use the same spells pure's used at mid level. This means either the mid level spells are made strong to let the hybrid be decent (and pures uber), or mid level spells are made normal to make pures decent (and hybrids lame). You can not balance a system like that! Improving spie's improves pe's. Hurting monks hurts pe's. Hurting pure's hurts hybrids. We can not be linked together like that, we each need a unique set of weaponry so they can be balanced without worrying about impairing someoen else.
Clownst0pper
14-03-04, 23:30
Carinth is 100% on the money as usual :angel:
Carinth, you will henceforth be worshipped as a deity.
ALL HAIL CARINTH
Shadow Dancer
14-03-04, 23:33
Carinth you idea stealer. :p
Originally posted by Carinth
IMO we will not be balanced as long as weapons are usable by anyone. What I mean is that everyone uses lowlvl psi, hybrids use midlvl apu and ppu, pe's use spies tools. You can not balance a system in which one group uses what another group used at a lower level. If you make the lowlvl item strong or weak, it impacts a different group unbalancing them.
Your missing the point, the point is not to balence the classes so each weapon of one class are all the same and just have different names. But, instead to allow for items to be put in the game, that are only for one class, but are not so unique that can be used by another class so in combination with other items a player can uses these tools to make his character vastly more powerful. ie monks barrels parashock tl3 heal...etc
What is needed is not a whole bunch of unique items that are class specific as is pe/spy/monk/tank armor, because then when you go tech hunting you'll have to get 100's of techs just to get 1 item that your looking for, but to introduce a new set of skills to add a new element to this game that has been lacking.
The best KK can do is switch the stats on every item or "nerf" items 1 patch and up them the next patch, when thier really just avoiding the problem all together which is get rid of the zone lines.
Paraschock is going to stay in this game until zone lines dissapear. With out paraschock people can just zone all day or run around so they never can get enough dmg to kill them, parashock is in to make runners die, it slows "runners" down so they can die. What is needed is more types of parashock, as in you cast holy parlsis as long as you clicked them theri screwed, but instead make parashock be target specific if you hit a player with holy parlisis in the legs 1x it slows down them by 10% 20% 30% etc... and if you use holy parschoc holo it goes up by 5% per say and get rid of all anti parashcok spells and drugs, and FINALLY ppus are not just PASSIVE they actualy have to do something in a op battle then just stand around and watch.
Originally posted by Carinth
The ideal setup in my opinion would be Tanks, Monks, and Spies as the archetypes each with their own unique line of weaponry.
They do just not all combat related ie spys and monks can hack ops/belts while tanks have to put all their int into hack if they want to, which gimps them alittle while a spy or monk is not neccasarily gimpes for combat.
You are right tho, monks rezzerection should not be solely to them make the SPYS paramedics for gods sake. They got nanao technolagoy or something make them able to be stealthed and have some sort of reviving tool that takes 30 secs, and make it a hitech and int requirmetn so then someone can use stealth 3 and rezz people while stealthed, then a pe could have a paramedic tool that is 75 int so he has to take a drug and takes 60 secs and he can rezz also, but make its ammo implant parts j's and stuff.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Carinth
We can not be linked together like that, we each need a unique set of weaponry so they can be balanced without worrying about impairing someoen else. [/Q
UOTE]
Unique weapon set alittle allowization for specialty type combat items such as barrels paraschock as monks do for other classes yes.
Doc Holliday
15-03-04, 01:03
Originally posted by Lucid Dream
I agree with you to an extent...
Spys should not be able to beat Tanks on the tank's turf, IE a spy should lose in a 1v1 situation, in a closed off area, but Spys SHOULD be able to take a tank on their turf, such as a tank at near clipping distance in a wide open area. Unfortunately, 99% of pvp in this game involves close range fighting in a closed off area (NF, PP, OPs etc) and the only long range shooting a spy ever gets is either A) in very very few ops that have a 'snipable' view of the op, or B) random PKing. Thus, stealth was implemented to give spys a shot in the closer range fighting. Now, if they made these new spirit bullets easier to obtain (build, clone, etc) i would say the spys are balanced pretty well versus the other classes.
amen to that.
Originally posted by vTlo
Your missing the point, the point is not to balence the classes so each weapon of one class are all the same and just have different names. But, instead to allow for items to be put in the game, that are only for one class, but are not so unique that can be used by another class so in combination with other items a player can uses these tools to make his character vastly more powerful. ie monks barrels parashock tl3 heal...etc
What is needed is not a whole bunch of unique items that are class specific as is pe/spy/monk/tank armor, because then when you go tech hunting you'll have to get 100's of techs just to get 1 item that your looking for, but to introduce a new set of skills to add a new element to this game that has been lacking.
The best KK can do is switch the stats on every item or "nerf" items 1 patch and up them the next patch, when thier really just avoiding the problem all together which is get rid of the zone lines.
Paraschock is going to stay in this game until zone lines dissapear. With out paraschock people can just zone all day or run around so they never can get enough dmg to kill them, parashock is in to make runners die, it slows "runners" down so they can die. What is needed is more types of parashock, as in you cast holy parlsis as long as you clicked them theri screwed, but instead make parashock be target specific if you hit a player with holy parlisis in the legs 1x it slows down them by 10% 20% 30% etc... and if you use holy parschoc holo it goes up by 5% per say and get rid of all anti parashcok spells and drugs, and FINALLY ppus are not just PASSIVE they actualy have to do something in a op battle then just stand around and watch.
They do just not all combat related ie spys and monks can hack ops/belts while tanks have to put all their int into hack if they want to, which gimps them alittle while a spy or monk is not neccasarily gimpes for combat.
You are right tho, monks rezzerection should not be solely to them make the SPYS paramedics for gods sake. They got nanao technolagoy or something make them able to be stealthed and have some sort of reviving tool that takes 30 secs, and make it a hitech and int requirmetn so then someone can use stealth 3 and rezz people while stealthed, then a pe could have a paramedic tool that is 75 int so he has to take a drug and takes 60 secs and he can rezz also, but make its ammo implant parts j's and stuff.
Unique weapons are a necessity for balancing. As long as we share weapons, then any change to one group will screw up another group. It's like the Rubix Cube, the most heinous invention ever. You can spend hours shuffling it around, and always be just a few movements from finishing it... but each of those movements sets you back for another color. If you try to fix ppu's, you screw up hybrids. If you try to fix spies, you screw up pe's. If you try to fix monks, you screw up pe's. This happens because we are using the same weapons as each other. If instead weapon types were exclusive, then you could safely balance them in comparison to each other. Balance doesn't at all hafta mean equality. It just means that each class has the potential to achieve the same results. Diversity is great, there definity should be things spies can do with tech that no monk or tank can do with their abilities. But that ability should be balanced with other unique abilities of the other classes. For example you can have spies with stealth, monks with shelter, Tanks with shields. Though they have the same purpose, they way they go about achieving that purpose is totaly different.
Clive tombstone
15-03-04, 02:59
Carinth
I like your views, very good. I especially liked how you dealed with PE's, normally People say that PE's should just be JoaT(aka, teh suc) but you approached it with a very good idea as far as mixing and combos went. Very good. Im not only saying this since im a PE, but also that PE's are very hard to deal with as far as Game balancing.
once again, good job
Originally posted by vTlo
Monks: A brotherhood, made to work together.
Tanks: Built on the model of brotherhood, by Monks for ceres war.
[COMBAT]:All combat pvp's use speed as their main defense and offense.
Spys: Not average citizen, has intelliegence and dexeterity but lacks the jack of all trades of a pe, relies on stealth, range, and not gettin hit.
Pes: Average citizen, made to be self reliant with whatever item at his disposal (Stealth, shileds damge boost), ie not made for large confrontations.
Spys & Pes overthrow Monks with numbers, ie were never equal, they are below monks and tanks.
Sounds like a good idea, lets take a look at a pyramid chart to see how this relates to the other classes in more graphical detail and how Neocrons population would look like with your great idea of game balance.
http://www.imageshack.us/files1/realpyramid.jpg
SWEET!!! GO TEAM vTlo !!!! #1 #1 #1 !!!
Duder, you were a funny bastard, always were. :lol:
Anyways, we're no longer calling the game Monkocron, but yes, I think a lot of the talk is still nowadays about monks.
Why? Friggin' Parashock is why... -_-;;
Originally posted by Duder
Sounds like a good idea, lets take a look at a pyramid chart to see how this relates to the other classes in more graphical detail and how Neocrons population would look like with your great idea of game balance.
http://www.imageshack.us/files1/realpyramid.jpg
SWEET!!! GO TEAM vTlo !!!! #1 #1 #1 !!!
Here is actually a more appropiate pyramid to show actually how skill and class relate to each other. If you have ub3r skill the character you play limites your abilites to where players of another class with equal skill start to win, when that starts a small perctange of players can reach it and go beyond, but if your a spy your limited, if that same person applied himself to a monk or gm char he would greatily increase the power of the character he plays.
If you crash fatal sync all your skill is instantllyed null, because with out input he just sits their waiting to be shot, so stop all these threads about parashock at least you can take a drug or anti para spell, if you syncronize in battle, its worse you can't do anything, but hope noone sees you.
http://free.one.picturehost.co.uk/sTATS.JPG
The unique wep solution suggested by Carinthis probably the best solution, although one could argue that drones are a spy specific wep and still have balancing problems both in pvp and pvm. I think that some of the problem is that power players in some cases "chase the trends" hence a new monkocron or tankocron etc ......
To look for total balance in 1 vs 1 conflict is probably not possible due to the nonagressive nature of some of the skillsets. Spys seem well suited to tradeskills and that in fact should detract from their combat abilities. The one thing that i have a hard time grasping is a PPu's invulnerability. I always imagined the healer/buffer class as being fragile but able to bring the "near dead" back to life, a parallel to our real life doctors.
I think that some of the problem is due to what i sense is a player hesitation to allow the PPU class to have any offensive power whatsoever. But anyhow im just a new player so feel free to ignore my rambbleing :P
imo if they had of balanced hybrids way back when instead if creating 2 more classes to balance, there wouldnt be the uber ppu buffed 2 man killing team, but instead they created the awful things knows as apus and ppus and gave them god like powers(ok i know the apu dont have that anymore) if they had of just balanced the hybrids, i dont think we would have the problem to day of whohas the most ppus or whatever, but hey thats just my opinion.
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