View Full Version : Why is para a PPU spell?
Tell me what do the letters PPU stand for?
Passive Psi Use
Can you tell me what Parashock does.
It is an agressive attack used in combat.
It slows down an enemy and even does a bit of damage to them.
Can you now tell me what does the word Passive mean?
Well if your not sure exactly what it means, I'll be happy to give you a hint. Nonviolent is a synonym of it.
Heres another hint:
http://www.mkgandhi.org/mkgadhi_write.gif
If you are still not sure what it means maybe there is just no hope for you.
If parashock is to continue to exist, it should ONLY be a APU spell.
However, I do feel there should be a PPU spell to counter this maybe to make you run faster?
Note to Mods: yes the idea at the bottom does tie in with my other idea; however, this thread is NOT a clone of the other so please do not close just because of that last sentence.
Holy fuck, you beat me to a thread O_o
Yeah, I was thinking that earlier...
I'd like it to be an APU spelltype..not PPU spelltype.
Any objections? and no, I don't want to hear from the people who think PPUs need it, I've seen enough discussions that defused that theory already.
Edit: Runspeed+ spells would be nice...if unfair. I'll think long and hard about that one.
Why is heal a PPU spell?
I know for one as a PPU I pro actively in an agressive mannor heal me time.
kthxbye
Shadow Dancer
14-03-04, 05:41
I agree. It should not be a ppu spell. That and damage boost are far from passive. DB shouldn't be a PPU spell either(although I think pes should still have it).
Parashock shouldn't be apu either. A shock of that power shouldn't be in that hands of any players.
That's all I have to say for now.
People think just because something doesn't kill you DIRECTLY, that it's passive or passive enough to be PPU. I swear, their could be a PPU spell that reduces the HP of everyone in the zone to 1 and no less, and people would still say it's fine for PPU. :rolleyes:
Gestra, very sorry....but I have to be honest.
Your grammar in that post seriously hurt my head. O_o
Mind restating?
"However, I do feel there should be a PPU spell to counter this maybe to make you run faster?"
Yep, just considered it, and I just remembered something. D:
There ARE spells that add to Transport and Agility...dunno about Athletics, but still.
Unless you mean a spell that significantly upgrades runspeed/stamina/etc.
Originally posted by Kenjuten
Gestra, very sorry....but I have to be honest.
Your grammar in that post seriously hurt my head. O_o
Mind restating? Exactly the same here...
Asking how is heal an PPU Spell?
Umm, how is it not? You do not heal as an act of agression. You do it passively, non-violently, and to help. That is passive.
Originally posted by Kenjuten
"However, I do feel there should be a PPU spell to counter this maybe to make you run faster?"
Yep, just considered it, and I just remembered something. D:
There ARE spells that add to Transport and Agility...dunno about Athletics, but still.
Unless you mean a spell that significantly upgrades runspeed/stamina/etc.
I mean directly upgrades runspeed for a small period of time.
parashocking the enemy is non violent. Its crowd control. It is not a full blown agressive action such as shooting someone dead. Its passive in that respect. Its not an agressive spell by any means.
using your logic. TL3 healing the enemy would be an agressive spell.
Parashock PASSIVELY reduces the enemies fighting ability in a non agressive manner that is why it is a PPU spell. Shooting enemies legs out by a tank or apu is agressive reducing there fighting combat. See the difference?
This subject already has been brought to forums in many occassions, same with damage boost. APUs themselves are in the line that is almost shaving the unbalance, due the extreme damage mainly of course.
Personally I don't want this horrible whinner-maker spell near my char abilities, but if we were doomed to use it... well, damage of APUs is already enought excuse to bitch at us, we should not retain that capability. Basically any change like this results in the need of tweaking some other areas, and for some reason KK is reluctant to it.
Don't get me wrong tho, aside my personal prefferences I don't have anything obvious against your arguments, I supported this time ago myself. I'm all up for getting more varied roles with my APU, leaving then the damage dealer role to the tanks... it's just that I can hear the whines from here.
Originally posted by Gestra
parashocking the enemy is non violent. Its crowd control. It is not a full blown agressive action such as shooting someone dead. Its passive in that respect. Its not an agressive spell by any means.
using your logic. TL3 healing the enemy would be an agressive spell.
Parashock PASSIVELY reduces the enemies fighting ability in a non agressive manner that is why it is a PPU spell. Shooting enemies legs out by a tank or apu is agressive reducing there fighting combat. See the difference?
Crowd control is an act of violence. If I run up to a cop and he smacks me down with his night stick saying its crowd control, is that not violent?
Anything that REDUCES an ability, or damages a player is agressive.
Anything that SUPPORTS an ability, or heals a player is passive.
And no you are not reading what I say completely. Using my logic Healing an enemy is passive.
ANYTHING you do to HELP someone is passive. ANYTHING you do to HARM a player is agressive.
Para HARMS a player by reducing his speed and even does damage to him.
Using a TL3 Heal on an enemy is HELPING that player, so is passive.
Shadow Dancer
14-03-04, 05:51
Originally posted by Gestra
parashocking the enemy is non violent. Its crowd control. It is not a full blown agressive action such as shooting someone dead. Its passive in that respect. Its not an agressive spell by any means.
It doesn't have to do damage to be aggressive.
Any spell, IMO, that affects the enemy in a negative way is an aggressive spell.
Part of the reason that made parashock do some damage, so you could lose SL for parashocking someone.
Using your logic, antibuff is a passive spell. Let's give that to ppus too. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Shujin
Anything that REDUCES an ability, or damages a player is agressive.
Anything that SUPPORTS an ability, or heals a player is passive.
Shujin>sex
Your logic, healing a team mate, Agressive hurts the enemies ability to kill them. Hence heal is an agressive spell in your black in white world.
Clear enough?
Shadow Dancer
14-03-04, 05:54
Originally posted by Gestra
Your logic, healing a team mate, Agressive hurts the enemies ability to kill them. Hence heal is an agressive spell in your black in white world.
Nope. What the player who is healed does is his choice. HE is the one doing the aggressive action.
Originally posted by Gestra
Your logic, healing a team mate, Agressive hurts the enemies ability to kill them. Hence heal is an agressive spell in your black in white world.
Clear enough?
Your not very good at thinking things through are ya?
My logic, Healing a team mate is helping that team mate. What he does after you heal him is not any matter in what you do.
Thats like saying a doctor heals a patient, that patient later kills a nurse. Is it the doctors fault that the nurse is dead? No because he serves his purpose to heal.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Nope. What the player who is healed does is his choice. HE is the one doing the aggressive action.
nice complete avoidance of the point made.
healing a player reduces the enemies ability to kill them. Para shocking a player reduces the enemies ability to kill them.
healing player gives them for of a chance to kill the enemy. Parashocking the enemy gives a player more chance to kill that enemy.
yet one is agressive too you and one is passive. Massive loophole Nah.
I think you should separate exploits and player work-arounds from intended features. TL-3 healing is.. let's not say an exploit... but a player-designed work around for that spell. Parashocks are exactly intended to affect negatively to the target, so does damage boost.
There are many other ways you can take to defend PPUs for having it, don't know why you took the more complicated.
Originally posted by Gestra
nice complete avoidance of the point made. He wasn't avoiding the point, he answered it in his own opinion; which I personally thought was correct.
If you still think the logic is wrong because of that try this:
You are a computer repairman, you repair a guys modem. He hacks into your account and steals everything you have. Would you be able to blame that repairman for allowing him to do it?
Or if you think that maybe that player was ONLY able to kill someone because of that buff that a passive player put on him. Wll try this:
You are a gas station operator. You sell someone a gallon of gas. They poor it on someone and light it.
Are you then agressive because you sold him the gas he used in an act of agression?
edit:
And if you think para is passive because it helps someone kill them, that is agressive right there. You said it yourself. You only do it because you are helping someone kill them. The act of you helping in an act of agression is in itself, agressive.
:lol: Gestra you crack me up. Where did you get this love of parashock? Maybe you like parashock because you can't really aim and if everyone at an OP fight is slowed to a crawl it's easier to heal your team mates and DB your enemies?
Shadow Dancer
14-03-04, 06:00
Originally posted by Sleawer
Parashocks are exactly intended to affect negatively to the target, so does damage boost.
Exactly.
Originally posted by Shujin
Thats like saying a doctor heals a patient, that patient later kills a nurse. Is it the doctors fault that the nurse is dead? No because he serves his purpose to heal.
omg Shujin is on a roll.
Originally posted by Gestra
nice complete avoidance of the point made.
Avoidance? I just answered your point. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Gestra
healing a player reduces the enemies ability to kill them.
Read shujin's example, thx.
Originally posted by Gestra
yet one is agressive too you and one is passive. Massive loophole Nah.
There is no loop hole. What the target does is irrelevant IMO.
The point is the effect YOU have on the target.
Since you think parashock is passive, please tell me why it's ok for apus to have antibuff then and not ppus.
Psycho Killa
14-03-04, 06:01
I r agree with gestra.
Though completely besides the point parashock shouldnt exist at all.
Okay, stfu. Now.
Never thought I'd get annoyed about this.
Aside from the RATHER ANNOYING TL3 heal loophole...
Yes, Healing is White Magic. Killing is Black Magic. But Magic is Magic. Either can be used for other purposes THAN WHAT THEIR GENERATOR INTENDS.
Healing feeds off the positive aspects of the soul, Killing feeds off the negative aspects.
This can not, and will not, change the fact that either side can be used for their opposite means. Someone can save the life of a bad guy. Someone can kill with good intentions.
This will not, however also, change the fact that the generator of healing will forever be the goodness of the soul..
With that shit out of the way:
You may have a point.
Parashock is kind of a Gray spell.
And so, until we figure out the real generator of Parashock, I have only this to say:
It does not belong here.
Until I, or we, figure out Parashock for certain, it has little to no place at all in Neocron.
Edit: Hoi, you people type up a storm. O_o My sudden rage seems ill-timed, lol. Just take my information as you normally would, I suppose D:
Shadow Dancer
14-03-04, 06:03
Originally posted by Kenjuten
Until I, or we, figure out Parashock for certain, it has little to no place at all in Neocron.
Exactly, best point so far.
BTW, delete the items in your SENT folder as well.
hehe
The thing is, I just realized what he's been saying. He said Para is passive because you do it to HELP someone kill someone.
If you are helping in an agressive act you are also taking part in that act.
However, I can already see what he will respond to this:
"If that is true than if you heal someone while they are attacking someone you are helping them attack someone" that is true; HOWEVER, not all the time you heal is an act of agression.
Every single time you para it is an act of agression because there is no reason for you to para someone unless you want to harm them.
Originally posted by Shujin
He wasn't avoiding the point, he answered it in his own opinion; which I personally thought was correct.
If you still think the logic is wrong because of that try this:
You are a computer repairman, you repair a guys modem. He hacks into your account and steals everything you have. Would you be able to blame that repairman for allowing him to do it?
I parashock the enemy, Then MY team mate kills him. Is it the PPU's fault the enemy died to a different player.
That uses the same logic bais as your analogy above. If you cant blame the repair my you cant blame the PPU, both assited in the act and helped supply the 3rd party with the tools for the act.
So para is passive. hthhand.
Psycho Killa
14-03-04, 06:07
Originally posted by Shujin
there is no reason for you to para someone unless you want to harm them.
Thats not true infact if you use para for what it was initialy to designed for as a ppu and that is make it so people cant chase you.
The logic being you cant fight so you need something to help get away or youll be running forever as someones hammering on you.
Originally posted by Gestra
I parashock the enemy, Then MY team mate kills him. Is it the PPU's fault the enemy died to a different player.
That uses the same logic bais as your analogy above. If you cant blame the repair my you cant blame the PPU, both assited in the act and helped supply the 3rd party with the tools for the act.
So para is passive. hthhand. Yes but if you Para him with the specific intent that he will die is agressive!
If a repairman fixes a guys modem specifically for him to hack then yes he would then be at fault.
If the gas station operator sold the gas specifically for him to poor on someone and light a match then yes he would also be at fault.
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Thats not true infact if you use para for what it was initialy to designed for as a ppu and that is make it so people cant chase you.
The logic being you cant fight so you need something to help get away or youll be running forever as someones hammering on you.
That is true ;o... damn O_o why'd you come here!
But it should do absolutely no damage, and it currently does.
Originally posted by Scikar
:lol: Gestra you crack me up. Where did you get this love of parashock? Maybe you like parashock because you can't really aim and if everyone at an OP fight is slowed to a crawl it's easier to heal your team mates and DB your enemies?
Damn right, much easier to heal my own team when the enemy para's them. You need how much boosters you go through when you keep missing para's ^^
BTW, If a person is damage boosted should a holy heal not heal them more? If it increases the damage taken surely it would increase the heal effective too. Would be a nice balencing factor to damageboost. Could hurt the enemy more but they can also heal better.
Originally posted by Shujin
Yes but if you Para him with the specific intent that he will die is agressive!
If a repairman fixes a guys modem specifically for him to hack then yes he would then be at fault.
If the gas station operator sold the gas specifically for him to poor on someone and light a match then yes he would also be at fault.
You heal your team mate with the specific intent to keep him alive so he can kill more people. heal is now an agressive act under your logic.
I para the enemy. to hinder his chance to kill my own team mates. That would make para passive under your logic.
How would you how ever decide what a PPU's intent behind the useage of the spell was?
Originally posted by Gestra
You heal your team mate with the specific intent to keep him alive so he can kill more people. heal is now an agressive act under your logic.
I para the enemy. to hinder his chance to kill my own team mates. That would make para passive under your logic.
How would you how ever decide what a PPU's intent behind the useage of the spell was?
Brings up another thing then ( writing idea in edit )
Shadow Dancer
14-03-04, 06:13
Originally posted by Shujin
That is true ;o... damn O_o why'd you come here!
That's like saying spies are the 2nd best users of PSI just because the manual says so.
Even if the devs intended the spell that way along time ago, obviously they don't feel the same now. What with the rof and antishock drugs into the equation.
So psycho's point is moot. We're talking about present day.
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Thats not true infact if you use para for what it was initialy to designed for as a ppu and that is make it so people cant chase you.
Just curious. Is this a fact? Did the devs say parashock was made for this reason?
Originally posted by Gestra
That uses the same logic bais as your analogy above. If you cant blame the repair my you cant blame the PPU, both assited in the act and helped supply the 3rd party with the tools for the act.
Actually no. Because the repairman isn't targetting the victim, whereas the PPU is.
So the repairman fixing the modem is analogous to the PPU healing a teammate.
And can you answer my point about antibuff?
Meh, I said my piece. I'm done.
@ SD: I cleaned up my folders =P
Quite bad analogies I'm reading here, the purposes behind the resources are always player made, and that's the reason why you will never come into agreement. Everyone uses the resources at his dispossal in a different way and to achieve different goals, but this doesn't make a definition of either what is passive or agressive, or the real nature of the item to use.
A Pistol is a weapon, period. Your legitimation in its use is a very different concept, and very subjective... depending on the country laws of the place where you use it.
By saying "the ppu module was intended to stop people chasing him away" you are making a subjective valoration of its use. I tell you something clear, "the spell harms, hence it is a weapon". You guys cannot twist the real meanings by your own perception of their use.
About damage boost and heal, hehe nice thought to balance it, tho it should be called 'psi amplifier' then.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
So the repairman fixing the modem is analogous to the PPU healing a teammate.
And can you answer my point about antibuff?
thx for gettin be back on track, had a bit of a brain fart O_o...
Simple way of way of ending it. Classifing things as either agressive or passive is limiting and false.
You can make an arguement for Para being agressive or passive, Probally do the same for anti buff.
its a grey world not black and white.
para fits a ppu's role in that it allows him to help out the team he is in, parashocking an enemy can be as benifical as healing a team mate. So I dont see why it should be removed from PPU's.
Sleawer, there is a big bloody difference between the subjective objects that are external to us..and thus so anything can be a weapon, and the objective soul and its parts.
Like I said, I've already said my piece. All I'm doing now is reading to see where this goes.
Shadow Dancer
14-03-04, 06:18
Originally posted by Sleawer
A Pistol is a weapon, period.
By saying "the ppu module was intended to stop people chasing him away" you are making a subjective valoration of its use. I tell you something clear, "the spell harms, hence it is a weapon". You guys cannot twist the real meanings by your own perception of their use.
Exactly my point d00d.
grrr
Ken I pmed you.
Using a heal spell to heal a team mate EVEN if he is going to attack someone is passive. I know I earlier stated that it would be agressive to do something to help someone commit an agressive act; however, read what I have to say.
When you heal someone and they attack someone else, yes it is true you are helping in the act of agression.
However!, when you parashock someone you are yourself committing that act of agression because you are the one hurting that player by doing the direct effect to him.
Even if it is in the intent to help your friends, you are harming someone to do it.
And in your logic, Healing a friend that will later kill someone only because he was healed would agressive also.
BUT the thing is, you did not do the direct effect that HURT someone.
By healing someone you HELPED someone hurt someone. You did not HURT the person yourself.
Originally posted by Shujin
By healing someone you HELPED someone hurt someone. You did not HURT the person yourself.
And by para'ing someone you did not directly hurt them unless you count the few points of damage it does. You reduced there ability to fight effective. That does not hurt some one, the other player shooting them hurts them.
But as I said, Really easy to argue that para is passive or/ agressive. its all grey.
Kenjuten, as long as you guys keep trying to attach personal uses in the definitions of the items, then of course everything can be a weapon, even a potatoe can harm you in the right context.
Gestra no, to classify things is necessary if we want to have certain guidelines to move around. Otherwise it is confusing people to obtain what you want. To me it is simple, PPUs keep parashocks because it is the class which benefits the least from it... my personal prefference? remove it from the game, but that is a different point, isn't it?
You guys keep mixing personal uses and prefferences along the way, hence you don't agree even in the most basic.
Originally posted by Gestra
And by para'ing someone you did not directly hurt them unless you count the few points of damage it does. You reduced there ability to fight effective. That does not hurt some one, the other player shooting them hurts them.
But as I said, Really easy to argue that para is passive or/ agressive. its all grey. You hurt them because you REDUCED the speed in which they run.
REDUCE = HARM , HARM = HURT, Hurt = Agressive, agressive = not very passive now is it?
And no I have nothing personal against it, I've used it before, and ive been on the end of it before, I could really careless if its in the game. I would just like for things should be what they say they are.
I would not want a cannon to require rifle use.
this is quite terrible,
By healing someone you HELPED someone hurt someone. You did not HURT the person yourself.
By parashocking someone you HELPED someone hurt someone. You did not HURT the person yourself.
You can just twist the logic around and around
doesn't matter parashock and DB must be left on the PPU, APUS have godman enough spells to have fun You can't make it into a hybrids spell because PEs need the DB. Right now the parashock and DB are right in the hands of a PPU.
anyhow the best solution is STILL S/D SELFCAST it seriously will balance every class in fights
Originally posted by Rai Wong
this is quite terrible,
By healing someone you HELPED someone hurt someone. You did not HURT the person yourself.
By parashocking someone you HELPED someone hurt someone. You did not HURT the person yourself.
You can just twist the logic around and around
doesn't matter parashock and DB must be left on the PPU, APUS have godman enough spells to have fun You can't make it into a hybrids spell because PEs need the DB. Right now the parashock and DB are right in the hands of a PPU.
anyhow the best solution is STILL S/D SELFCAST it seriously will balance every class in fights But you DID hurt the person yourself You slowed them down.
In real life if you seen someone walking down the street, and u dart'ed them with a blow gun that made them run slower. That would not be harm?
And you said they have enough spells to have fun with... The point is not how you can have fun. The point is it logical?
Sure its fun for a PPU to have para, but it is not at all logical.
I gotta disagree, with a heal you directly DO NOT harm the target.. althought its use can result in helping your allies (TL-3 heal).
On the other hand with a parashock you not only do some damage, but harm in great measure the person abilities to scape, run, dodge... you are actively damaging the target.
Again the use should not shape the definition, but the real effect.
/edit: Shujin I'd let the logic aside. Logic is reasoning, your reasoning.
Originally posted by Sleawer
I gotta disagree, with a heal you directly DO NOT harm the target.. althought its use can result in helping your allies (TL-3 heal).
On the other hand with a parashock you not only do some damage, but harm in great measure the person abilities to scape, run, dodge... you are actively damaging the target.
Again the use should not shape the definition, but the real effect.
Sorry, don't really understand what your saying O_o don't know who your talking to either O_o... but it appears your basicly saying what I think too.
Psycho Killa
14-03-04, 06:35
No my point is not moot. Shujin stated that EVERY TIME you para someone it is to kill them which is not true.
Yes I have used parashock when running away.
Point still stands.
I heal people so they can kill weither it be a mob or player so if I continue your logic out I healing is an agressive act.
I certainly dont heal people so they can pick daisies do I?
Yea I disagreed with Rai Wong.
Dade Murphey
14-03-04, 06:36
If they continue allowing it to do dmg, it should be made a APU spell...but if they want to allow it to be a PPU spell they need to take away dmg and have it just be the freeze effect...they also need to take the dmg away from shockers as all they say is "Stun 15 seconds"...none of the freeze devices should do actual dmg...only stun things
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
No my point is not moot. Shujin stated that EVERY TIME you para someone it is to kill them which is not true.
Yes I have used parashock when running away.
Point still stands. EVERYTIME you para someone it is not to kill them, however it is an act of agression due to the fact that it harms them by deminishing their ability to run. Even if it is to help you, it is helping you by harming someone else.
Your point is not moot PK, but it doesn't *really* matter to say if the spell is agressive or passive.
I agree with Dade. I actually had an unsuccessful crusade to achieve that.
Psycho Killa
14-03-04, 06:39
I dont really think its either passive or agressive but it fits in more with the role of a ppu being a support character then it does with the role of the top damage dealer.
And healing diminishes the enemies chance to kill my player which increases the chances my ally will kill my enemy which makes my heal aggresive?
I also beleive para should do 0 damage especialy pvp. The tl9 parabolt should remain the same PVM ONLY just for missions sake. Or make soulclusters capable of doing missions in less then an hour.
Shadow Dancer
14-03-04, 06:40
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
I heal people so they can kill weither it be a mob or player so if I continue your logic out I healing is an agressive act.
Then you do not understand my logic. My logic isn't based on what the target does, it's based on how the spell affects the target.
The thing is though PPU is passive; thats why im so on this.
Its annoying me that a spell that harms someone by slowing them down is called Passive.
It does not matter why you did it, or who else will be effected by it.
The fact is that you harmed someone; you slowed them down.
That is in no way passive.
Also to KK PPU is a SUPPORT class. If it is a support class they should change it to SPU Support Psi Use, Not passive.
If it was SPU then, I would agree that para is fine not being APU.
Currently I think it should be APU or non-existant.
That's exactly my point PK... well that's my personal opinion, and as much as I hate to bring it here and be biased, it is probably the best argument against moving parashock to APUs. All what matters is balance, and APUs' damage dealer role combined with parashocks brings all but balance.
Psycho Killa
14-03-04, 06:45
Originally posted by Shujin
If it was SPU then, I would agree that para is fine not being APU.
So basicaly your against a class having a spell simply because you dont beleive it fits its name?
Doesnt seem like a very good reason to rally for the switchin of parashock over to apu.
Sleawer, go reread my 'stfu' post.
Then you'll know I'm not placing personal feelings on this. It's a simple application of universal truth.
You are the one placing what's objective as subjective.
Did you understand my posts Kenjuten?
If anything I have been brought here is PURE definitions and separations of what is objective and subjective. I just named the words, YOU brought the wrong examples.
/edit: well not actually YOU as your person, but as generally you 'guys'. However you are who is asking me.
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
So basicaly your against a class having a spell simply because you dont beleive it fits its name?
Doesnt seem like a very good reason to rally for the switchin of parashock over to apu. Noo, I'm just stating another little thing :).
maybe KK should bring back EPU or EXT whatever it was capped
exotic psi use
Okay, I said that I said enough, this time I'm gonna follow it.
Sleawer, we've allowed this to deteriorate into a 'your beliefs vs. mine' thing, and that's why I'm stopping.
You all can go on fighting, I've had enough of this thread entirely ignoring each other.
People believing what they want is one thing, but denying what is, is another.
To think this is the first thread that I've had to actually stop posting in because of such a thing...
Good Greif this is stupid.
1. GAME MECHANICS you cant give para to apus PERIOD too overpowered same with dmg boost.
2. Parashock is passive its main purpose is not to inflict damage but to inhibit the enemies capabilities of persuit or evasion.
3. In this game all classes need a sure fire way of dealing at least a minimal amount of dmg pvm or pvp. Otherwise youre going to have hell with epics. And trying to spawn a SC in close quaters is hell.
Normally id agree remove para. But after the recent nerfage of it i find that it is totally acceptable. and necessary in combatting ppus.
Oh Yea shujin look it up. Passive doesent mean FUCKING ghandi, he was a PASCIFIST, which you apparently translate to passive. Passive signifies the lack of a direct involvement in combat which is exactly what we have atm.
Kenjuten dude, I think you are the one who have missed the topic completely. This thread started exactly with the idea of discussing if parashocks are agressive, thus apu, or passive, as ppu. We are here happily discussing our beliefs in this, right as in every discussion people discuss things based on their own beliefs.
Me, personally, was trying to prove the point that no matter how you use the said PSI module it has a default meaning and definition. If it directly harms, and it does, then it is agressive... no matter if you use it to scape or collect money for the charity.
I wasn't even interested in what you said, as your opinions were the same as mine... until you mentioned my name in your post with a simple statement that I answered. From them you seem to have taken it as a crusade against you or something O_o
I can prove this point in-game and in-real whenever you want, it is real and it is a fact. My personal opinions are something very different tho, I cannot prove them beyond my own logic.
No, for some reason I'm just very miffed. Sorry. :(
I did had a feeling we were talking the same thing.
It's just...bleh. I'll try to stay away from debate topics for the rest of the night. This thread got me very uptight for some reason.
ok I get what you mean now, you are saying parashock is a purely aggresive spell I kinda agree, however what do u want to do about it is my question?
Perhaps they should be made into a hybrid spell? since as I believe hybrids cannot use 3rd level primaries or holy heal anyways. To be honest PPUs serve a too big role in an op fight, I think removing foreign cast sheilds will be a good nerf, it does not negate the PPUs defensive abilities but it helps alot in not making his entire teasm invulnerable, defenses raised the the maximum...
-parashock
-heal
-damage boost
-sanctum
-purge negative effects
- sheilds shelter and deflectors
-primary buffs (support, weapon and resist)
say example an Spies role in an op fight
-snipe..~?
Parashock-spells for APUs are a bad idea. APUs can move very fast and every apu-nub is able to aim and hit a target, that's 140m away. If an apu monk was also able to freeze enemies at that distance with a para shock, the victims wouldn't have any chance at all regardless of the player skill. Strong parashocks suck and parashocks in the hand of apu monks would suck even more. My main char is APU since one of the first hybrid nerfs, but I hate monkocron. People should play APU, because they like the char, not because APUs are easy to play and overpowered.
I also play meelee tank and in my opinion meelee tanks, pistol-PEs etc. wouldn't have any chance at all, if APUs were able to cast para shocks. The apu would be the uberchar to go and pk people. Freeze, a few holy lightnings and enemy dead in a few seconds.
I agree it should probably not be a PPU spell,
but imagine a capped APU with 5 slot rare spells and a holy parashock. You cant run away, and its almost definite death because of their range and speed.
I think thats probably why they dont have para as an apu spell.
There is such a thing as passive aggressive, which does fall under the passive catagory. Parashock is most definitly passive, because the ppu does not kill you with it. That is what makes passive and aggressive different. If the action kills you, that is aggressive. If a result of the action is that you're killed (by someone/something else), that is passive. If I kill someone with a gun, that is direct/aggressive. If I tell their wife he's been cheating on her and she goes and kills the guy with a gun, that is indirect/passive.
When paralysis had a higher rof, I could use it aggresively by spamming people. That's how ppu's could do some limited pk'ing. But certainly not now, it is entirely passive. You can not argue otherwise, I'm sorry. You certainly can't suggest apu's should get it. APU's don't have shock for the same reason PPU's are stuck with SoulClusters as their best offense. Can you imagine how overpowered apus would be with parashock? That's a good part of what made hybrids so wicked. The 50/50 hybrids used parashock/dmg boost/holy lightning. They easily did more damage then apu's and you were an easy target being glued to the floor.
Now it is an entirely different discussion if you want to say wether a ppu should have something like parashock, I think most agree the game would be better off without it. IMO even better would be to split the ppu up into at least two new sub classes. If the purpose of a ppu is to modify other's/self with buffs, then you can easily group buffs into two groups. There are positive buffs and negative buffs. It would be pretty sensible to have a defensive buffer and an offensive buffer. Note, the offensive buffer is not an APU. If you want apu's to take on this role then they could nolonger use any spells which deal significant direct damage. Buffers can not have an offense.
Personaly I think that would be a great move, change apu's to a real support role with offensive buffs and maybe some minor defensive buffs. PPU's would be the defensive buff masters, with a few minor offensive spells if needed. So in your typical team fight, the ppu's sole purpose is to heal/protect the team/himself. The apu's job is to fuck up the enemy, shock them, boost them, and do all kinds of other negative buffs to turn them impotent.
This would take a large step towards curing the apu's identity crisis and the ppu's joat status. The current idea of an apu is a damage dealing support character. But we all know that's not true nor can it be true. If the apu deals more damage then anyone else it'd be unfair unless the apu dies very easily. Yet if the apu dies very easily, his usefuless in a fight is rather limited.. unless he has a ppu attached at the hip. So its hard to see exactly what apu's role is in the game. The introduction of antibuff gave them their first real role, as ppu killers. The idea of antibuff, or dispel magic, is an offensive buff. It would seem to me that making apu's offensive buffers would be more fitting then just another damage dealer who happens to be able to counter ppu's. PPU's currently have more jobs/positions to fill then any other class. PPU's are more joat then pe's are. From offensive buffs, to defensive buffs, to team support, to self support, to pvm, to pvp, to anti stealth, to anti drone, to team strategist, to healer, to ressurector, etc, etc. Then we can go into the non ppu roles we can do, with our array of booster spells, we could take up rifling or pistols to some degree. We can excel at tradeskilling, with buffs to enhance us and plenty of int to spare if you don't care about combat. PPU's can do it all, and are expected to do it all. Which is why ppu's have nervous breakdowns every so often, or why we pick a specific job and stick with it. PPU's often decide they are only going to serve on or two purposes, and focus on that. You can't do everything, you'll end up failing miserably.
Shadow Dancer
14-03-04, 23:09
Parashock is passive, yet antibuff is aggressive?
Please explain that one Carinth.
Psycho Killa
14-03-04, 23:22
KK says its agressive for balancing purposes shadow just as they see parashock passive for balancing purposes.
Geeh we named these guys agressive WTF now we cant make HAB because that would make an apu doing a non direct agressive act lolz wtf give it to ppu's because of the way we named them.
Ya makes sense.
Shadow Dancer
14-03-04, 23:25
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
KK says its agressive for balancing purposes shadow
Yes that's obvious PK.
I'm talking about Carinth's logic not KK's.
Carinth said HAB was aggressive. Based on his defintion of what is and isn't aggressive, he contradicted himself.
When did i say that? I reread my post and didn't see anywhere I said hab is aggressive. Infact I said the opposite. It's an negative buff, just like parashock.
Shadow Dancer
14-03-04, 23:31
Car, what exactly is the difference between parashock and antibuff? They both harm you indirectly, and don't do damage.
So iyo, what's the difference? The way you described parashock, sounds like the way hab can be described.
Originally posted by Carinth
Parashock is most definitly passive, because the ppu does not kill you with it. That is what makes passive and aggressive different. If the action kills you, that is aggressive.
Forget My Name
14-03-04, 23:52
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I agree. It should not be a ppu spell. That and damage boost are far from passive. DB shouldn't be a PPU spell either(although I think pes should still have it).
Parashock shouldn't be apu either. A shock of that power shouldn't be in that hands of any players.
That's all I have to say for now.
People think just because something doesn't kill you DIRECTLY, that it's passive or passive enough to be PPU. I swear, their could be a PPU spell that reduces the HP of everyone in the zone to 1 and no less, and people would still say it's fine for PPU. :rolleyes:
ok brain guy, and you want PPUs to level in this game how? Why is it in EVERY game ever made, the medic/healer can wield weapons yet in Neocron, all you leet non ppu's hate oto much, and try to make ppus totally useless in this game?
How am I supposed to level? All I got now is holy bolt, and even that blows WITH damage boost. And no, a server witha population of 100 doesnt = teams.
Also, I dont pay 10 bucks a month to have OTHER people play my character. Why should I need a team to play this game?
Other classes level fine without me, but I NEED a team.
Fine, lets do this. Since PPUs need other player to enjoy this game, make it that all other classes have50 health, and they need a ppu to boost them up to their normal life. that way, PPus cant level without you all, and you all cant level without a ppu.
now thats balance.
Originally posted by Carinth
When did i say that? I reread my post and didn't see anywhere I said hab is aggressive. Infact I said the opposite. It's an negative buff, just like parashock.
Where did I say antibuff is an aggressive spell? I have no idea what you're talking about shad. Antibuff is passive, the same as damage boost and parashock are passive. It's a negative buff, as it removes a spell from the target. What do you want me to say?
Originally posted by Forget My Name
ok brain guy, and you want PPUs to level in this game how? Why is it in EVERY game ever made, the medic/healer can wield weapons yet in Neocron, all you leet non ppu's hate oto much, and try to make ppus totally useless in this game?
How am I supposed to level? All I got now is holy bolt, and even that blows WITH damage boost. And no, a server witha population of 100 doesnt = teams.
Also, I dont pay 10 bucks a month to have OTHER people play my character. Why should I need a team to play this game?
Other classes level fine without me, but I NEED a team.
Fine, lets do this. Since PPUs need other player to enjoy this game, make it that all other classes have50 health, and they need a ppu to boost them up to their normal life. that way, PPus cant level without you all, and you all cant level without a ppu.
now thats balance.
FMN, under a sane system ppu's would gain exp for doing ppu stuff. For healing, for sheltering, for damage boosting, etc. Everytime we use a spell to improve someone's chance at fighting then we should gain exp. We realy really realy shouldn't ever hafta kill anyone or anything. That is the definition of passive. That we need things like soul cluster and holy para bolt are because neocron does not support pure support classes. Everyone is supposed to take part in combat.
Shadow Dancer
14-03-04, 23:59
Originally posted by Forget My Name
ok brain guy, and you want PPUs to level in this game how? Why is it in EVERY game ever made, the medic/healer can wield weapons yet in Neocron, all you leet non ppu's hate oto much, and try to make ppus totally useless in this game?
First of all, I don't even agree with how ppus are done in this game. Secondly, I was just referring to parashock. Don't tell me ppus use that to directly level. The bulk of their leveling is from team xp.
And no I don't want to make ppus useless. Please don't exaggerate.
And as for why medic/healer can weild weapons in other games. I dunno, but just remember the medic/healer in other games doesn't have supreme defense and near unkillability with SPECIAL weapons required to kill them.
Originally posted by Forget My Name
How am I supposed to level? All I got now is holy bolt, and even that blows WITH damage boost. And no, a server witha population of 100 doesnt = teams.
SO you're telling me with the current rof and mana costs, you use paralyze spells to level?
heheh
Very simple, their can be other ways to help ppus level if parashock is removed.
Originally posted by Forget My Name
Also, I dont pay 10 bucks a month to have OTHER people play my character. Why should I need a team to play this game?
Dunno, ask KK.
I'm not sure what you mean by the first sentence though. O_o
Originally posted by Forget My Name
Carinth is right, PPUS in this game are screwed by the non ppu player base. over and over again.
When KK made pure ppus, they were designed to level in teams. It's not like people said "omfg ppus should need teams" and Kk did it because of what they said.
Secondly, if you wanna blame ppus being screwed over. You need to blame some ppus themselves. Like the ones who abused para before and would paraspam to high hell making people hate them, and making the overpoweredness of paralyze even more apparent.
Third, alot of ppus have the hybrid mentality. Where no matter how much influence they have in pvp, they will never admit there's a problem.
Sure, if you SINCERELY believe ppus aren't imbalanced, then hey that's fine. But many ppus are in denial and don't even want to acknowledge a problem exists.
So just like the hybrids were in denial and never offered any solutions to help, and got slammed with a huge ass nerf, don't be surprised when the same happens to PPUs.
Originally posted by Forget My Name
Fine, lets do this. Since PPUs need other player to enjoy this game, make it that all other classes have50 health, and they need a ppu to boost them up to their normal life. that way, PPus cant level without you all, and you all cant level without a ppu.
now thats balance.
The sword cuts both ways. It isn't exactly a realistic option to not use a PPU these days in PvP. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Carinth
Where did I say antibuff is an aggressive spell?
You said it was an aggressive buff.
Originally posted by Carinth
Antibuff is passive, the same as damage boost and parashock are passive. It's a negative buff, as it removes a spell from the target. What do you want me to say?
Ok, well you made it seem like it made sense for HAB to be under APU. Which is what I wanted you to clarify. Do you think it makes sense to be under apu?
Forget My Name
15-03-04, 00:06
If we did not have paraspells, what would a 0/2 ppu do?
Lets see..... log in, ask for a 0/2 team, and every time after that, I have to log in and HOPE that someone my level wants me to cut their exp in half to level.
Carinth made it clear. PPUs should gain exp for doing PPU things. I am doing epic missions, and MY GOD!!! Epics where NOT designed for ppus.
Three things KK didnt think of putting in this game when they first made it...
LE chip / Tradeskillers / PPUs
Just take out all three, rename this game to COunterStrike and make everyone happy.
As long as my SOLO game SUCKS AN ASS, youare DAMN stright that I will abuse everything I got to make other players lives a libing hell in PvP. GLue your ass ot the floor? Damn right. Atleast you can cap your character alone, but it would take me, what? 4 years with a tl 8 parabolt to cap?
Keep parashocks for PPUs -AS LONG- as the solo game for PPUs blows such a huge dick.
Shadow Dancer
15-03-04, 00:11
Originally posted by Forget My Name
Carinth made it clear. PPUs should gain exp for doing PPU things.
I agree too.
Originally posted by Forget My Name
As long as my SOLO game SUCKS AN ASS, youare DAMN stright that I will abuse everything I got to make other players lives a libing hell in PvP. GLue your ass ot the floor? Damn right.
So instead of making brainport ideas or constantly campaigning for better ways to level a ppu solo(a pure support char :rolleyes: ), you decide to have this mentality? And you really think this'll help the situation?
Lol.
:rolleyes:
Originally posted by Kenjuten
Until I, or we, figure out Parashock for certain, it has little to no place at all in Neocron.
Discussion should have ended there. Para is, and will, always screw this game until a solution, a VIABLE solution is found. Stop already with the Para is fine, cuz thats just BS. And stop thinking that a solution is gonna be pulled outta your ass in 5 secs flat cuz what usually comes out of ure ass will please more people. Not everyone will like a decision to remove Para, even for a short time, but ffs, its the only way to go for now.
Nuff
Fricking
Said
and pwned.
Clownst0pper
15-03-04, 00:21
Can you imagine an APU casting parashock?
Heres the scenario.
Tank running @ APU, APU parashocks, selects holy lighting, instant dead tank.
Great idea. :lol:
Psycho Killa
15-03-04, 00:33
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
You said it was an aggressive buff.
He used the word "offensive" not agressive.
Strictly by passive/aggressive it makes no sense for antibuff to be an apu spell (if apu's are truely just supposed to be damage dealing support characters). As pk said, it's an apu spell purely for game balancing. You could give it to ppu's, but its not like we don't have enough things to do already. By giving antibuff to apu's, they've not only made apu's valuable, they've also put in a counter to ppu's invincible shields. None of which would be necessary if kk actualy thought about what a ppu's purpose is. Instead of just thinking of random cool things a passive inclined character would do and packaging them all up into the ppu.
In regards to parashock's usage, it actualy is used to level early on. Para Bolt and Holy Parabolt deal the most damage of any shock, pitiful as it is, it's enough to kill rats with. Unlike other classes, ppu's are rather useless until they reach certain levels. The ppu spells are not evenly distributed nor is there any sense to their layout. They seem to cluster around certain levels, especialy the important spells. So there are times when a ppu isn't wanted in a team at all, until he hits a magical level and has access to the right spells.
Later on, when it actualy has shocking power Parashock is used for one of three reasons. First, it is used to slow down hostiles going for the ppu. This is especialy used in the case of an apu trying to debuff the ppu. Shock the apu and run around a corner to rebuff yourself. It was also very nice against dev tanks, to keep them out of range. Secondly, shock is used to impair a single or team of hostiles so that your team can kill them easier. This is also done in pvm, though in pvp this is the one use that everyone hates. Thirdly shock is used as an anti ppu weapon, if you can imobilize the enemy ppu then your apu/team has a much better chance of killing the ppu.
There's no reason somethign else couldn't be introduced to fufil the legit uses of shock, without the parts people hate. For example we could keep para bolt, it doesn't shock anyone it doesn't serve any purpose other then to let a ppu do some pitiful damage. It seems to me though, that all except for one use of shock are fair and don't need to be changed. It's the prevalant single use of parashock to make people easier for your team to kill, that ruins pvp for everyone.
Instead of blanketdly saying get rid of shock, since kk won't do that, maybe it would be wise to think of ways that single unfun use could be removed. For example as said, para bolt can stay because it serves a useful function that has nothing to do with ruining pvp. As a mechanism for escaping, Para Barrel could be made useful. It could be made that we can runcast it and the shock effect does not effect us. So that a ppu can run away and drop a barrel while they're running to try to slow down whoever is following them. The range and location would be balancing factors. Once the person leaves the barrel range (assuming both were running wouldn't be that long), the shock effect wouldn't stay that long. It would be enough to slow them down a little tho, and let the ppu escape. Frankly I have no idea how to still allow a shock that will help bring down enemy ppu's tho. It's rather contradictory to think of a shock that lets a ppu get away and a shock that lets you stop a ppu. Yet atm thats exactly what the form of shock we all hate so much does.
Strych9 (I think) posted an interesting idea a while ago. That parashocks be changed to skill reducers. I.E. say holy para halo has the effect of -30 agility and -30 athletics.
Shadow Dancer
15-03-04, 01:28
Originally posted by Carinth
Instead of blanketdly saying get rid of shock,
Well i've always suggested to leave it PvM.
At one point I suggested to leave the barrel form for PvP. That actually seems like a balanced way of keeping shock in pvp. *gasp*
I really wish KK would totally rework monks. But I guess they don't want to piss off 90% of the playerbase, in other words monks. :rolleyes:
I'm still against that idea Glok. A direct parashock for pvp just doesn't work in this game, IMO. There is no stupid front line or backrow. When you see an op war, usually everyone(except sniper spies or droners) are intermixed. And weapons in this game do so much damn damage that it's quite possible to kill someone in 3 seconds or so while they are "shocked". Their are a few exceptions though.
But look at apu vs apu. An apu can kill another apu in like 1.5 seconds sometimes, unbuffed. Now if an apu gets caught, unluckily, with parashock while he's unbuffed. He better pray that nobody has noticed.
And that's without damage boost. :rolleyes:
I posted 2 theories on parashock.
The first was to make parashock do an instantaneous drain on stamina. Then it could be countered with stamina boosters... youwould HAVE to keep spamming it to keep someone immobile, and your aim wouldnt be altered.
Then if a ppu wanted to keep someone from moving, it would have to be their main job at that time.
My second idea was to have a formula... that thread is here-
http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=93640
And in a way, it acts like what Glock described above- so that you can fully counter the shocks if you spec agility and athletics.
Regardless... I think it has a place in game. Like Carinth said, it IS a vital levelling/self-defense tool. My original PPU on Pluto was fine with Psi Attack 1 til they made it APU. Since then, parabolt has taken its place as the "damage boost the mob and shoot them 129 times to kill them" method of choice.
Ah, must have been someone else then. Soz.
I think skill reduction para is a great idea tho. Sorry SD. :p At least you wouldn't have the ridiculous turning issue.
Shadow Dancer
15-03-04, 01:50
Originally posted by Glok
Ah, must have been someone else then. Soz.
I think skill reduction para is a great idea tho. Sorry SD. :p At least you wouldn't have the ridiculous turning issue.
I'm for that idea, if para has to stay in-game. hehe
Don't get me wrong. It's just that I think para has no place in pvp, and I don't want to make it seem like I think para is ok because it's in another form.
:p
Carinth, saying that Parashock is not agressive because it cannot kill you seems a misconception to me. I do not need to kill in order to be agressive.
That module has only one purpose, and it is harming the opponent, it doesn't need an indirect form of help to harm the target. Parashocks directly harm the target's abilities in great measure. You can do only one thing with that module, it is selecting a target and casting it... and its effect harms. Therefore it IS agressive.
Antibuff uses the same principle, hence it is agressive aswell. Debuffs are a form of agression, and not exclusive to this game. The healing class strictly as passive doesn't hold debuff roles, it is an agressive meaning to enhance your combat abilities, read as harming the target combat abilities.
Not all is disagreement tho, I'd also like to see the APU as the effetive debuffer in the game, but while the damage dealer role should be phased to tanks, its defences shall remain weak.
That is the main problem with PPUs. It is a very important group class, and at the same time that it has such awesome impact in any situation that evolves combat, the PPU also has special defence mechanisms that turn him into the hardest class to neutralize. This is an already beaten horse tho, any mention of reducing PPU defences while improving its team role is classified as tabu. PPUs seem to preffer an overpowered defence than having a real decisive supporting role. According to this, many PPUs accept Shelter/Deflector self-cast only as the best theory, and I have accepted it aswell... If they don't want to reduce their self-overpowered impact, lets reduce their overpowered impact on others. Same to me, I'm not the one that preffers to be nerfed in role.
On my APU however, I'd take the main debuffer role... damage boosts, resist reductions, parshocks, etc... but our defences should be indirectly proportional to the role-management capabilty: BIG role - SMALL defence. That is balance to me.
The last few months it has become clearer to me; the PPU class doesn't want to be balanced, it is a constant back and forth with suggestions that are inmediately disregarded... so unless KK does it by force, the PPU role will decay each day more, until it has a tiny impact... or will be turned into a annoying class to play. It is not what I'd like to ppu's tho, I'd rather have a flourishing class with a good deal of roles in the game... but hey, I cannot have things made the way I like always.
Get used to it, because no one is going to have things as they would like.
About parashocks themselves... atm PPUs are the class that benefits the least from them. Any other class having it, specially APUs, with the current roles would be insane.
I liked Strych9's idea... I don't feel like KK is going to re-work the monk class or do big changes, so these small ideas are much more acceptable.
Shadow Dancer
15-03-04, 04:03
Originally posted by Sleawer
On my APU however, I'd take the main debuffer role... damage boosts, resist reductions, parshocks, etc... but our defences should be indirectly proportional to the role-management capabilty: BIG role - SMALL defence. That is balance to me.
I couldn't disagree more. The apu would be the ultimate bitch class then IMO. I don't mind doing alot(ALOT) less damage, if i'm being the aggressive buffer. Having all sorts of indirect harming spells sounds cool, fun, and more complex than the simple point and click style now.
However if you want us to retain our crappy defense, and no healing, that would just make us big targets without ppus. Remember, as of now we can kill other classes because of our uber offense. If we no longer have that(which is fine IMO, but...) then we cannot kill someone unless they are SIGNIFICANTLY less skilled. So we would be like spies, except without TL 3 heal or stealth. Basically just targets out in the open.
o_O
Maybe if he had a form of escape, or some type of aggressive defense, like a elemental barrier shield that doesn't allow him to cast spells but significantly harms anyone who touches him. Then it might be ok....
But i'm not too keen on the idea of being a spy with no stealth. :p
Well I guess its in how you define aggressive/passive. To me being aggressive is attacking someone. Apu spells are all direct damage, the apu is the one inflicting the damage. That's aggressive. Passive on the other hand can not kill a person. There is however a subdivision of Passive called Passive Aggressive, in which the ppu's actions indirectly cause someone to die. But the death is not at the hands of the ppu.
The only way I can be aggressive is with the pitiful damage parashock does. Everythin else is passive. antibuff is a passive spell because it does not damage, it does not kill anyone. By removing the targets shelter, you make it easier for *someone else* to kill them. But you're not the one killing them. Even as an apu, you use hab and then switch to holy lightning or fire apoc to kill.
Ask yourself this question to determine the nature of a spell. If using soly that spell can you kill a person? can you kill someone by removing their shelter? I don't think so... You could kill people with parashock, but that is because it does direct damage aswell as shock effect. I realy don't believe the dmg portion is what gives people problems. If you removed the ability to deal damage, people would still hate para.
I could go look up passivity and aggression in a dictionary, they'd say somthin like this: Passivity is to allow something to happen, either by indirect means or by not doing anything. Aggression is to do something yourself. By shocking someone the ppu does not kill them. It is the Tank along with the ppu that kills, not the ppu.
Shadow Dancer
15-03-04, 04:16
Aggressive doesn't always mean killing. Jeez.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I couldn't disagree more. The apu would be the ultimate bitch class then IMO. I don't mind doing alot(ALOT) less damage, if i'm being the aggressive buffer. Having all sorts of indirect harming spells sounds cool, fun, and more complex than the simple point and click style now.
However if you want us to retain our crappy defense, and no healing, that would just make us big targets without ppus. Remember, as of now we can kill other classes because of our uber offense. If we no longer have that(which is fine IMO, but...) then we cannot kill someone unless they are SIGNIFICANTLY less skilled. So we would be like spies, except without TL 3 heal or stealth. Basically just targets out in the open.
o_O
Maybe if he had a form of escape, or some type of aggressive defense, like a elemental barrier shield that doesn't allow him to cast spells but significantly harms anyone who touches him. Then it might be ok....
But i'm not too keen on the idea of being a spy with no stealth. :p
Being the bitch clas.. like maybe ppu's are x 5 ? : )
If we went with this I would assume ppu's dont have the same crazy defenses they do either. Neither support role should have such a defense. Maybe a lil defense to get by on their own, but nothign to stand up to more then 2 ppl.
Shadow Dancer
15-03-04, 04:25
Originally posted by Carinth
Being the bitch clas.. like maybe ppu's are x 5 ? : )
Erm no. :)
Originally posted by Carinth
If we went with this I would assume ppu's dont have the same crazy defenses they do either. Neither support role should have such a defense. Maybe a lil defense to get by on their own, but nothign to stand up to more then 2 ppl.
Neither support role should have such uber defense? Hrmm. Yea but pure support chars should get several methods of escape or safety in some form or another.
ppu bitch buff me ffs lol wtf?
I agree to the problem. The solution is far from obvious tho.
Psycho Killa
15-03-04, 04:27
Not that it much matters to this thread but honestly wouldnt it be so easy to balance this game if monks didnt exist? :D
Shadow Dancer
15-03-04, 04:34
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Not that it much matters to this thread but honestly wouldnt it be so easy to balance this game if monks didnt exist? :D
Yes and no. The problem is monks are fucked up, and KK is trying to fix a fucked up system IMO.
It could also be easier to balance if they said "ok forget everything. Let's completely redo monks".
But we all know the likeliness of that happening. :D
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Not that it much matters to this thread but honestly wouldnt it be so easy to balance this game if monks didnt exist? :D
Of course it wouldnt, but yes removing monks would help a lot : )
There is still the problem of pe's being lame pe's with better defenses. There is still the problem of Tanks and Spies and Pe's somehow competeing on an even playing ground, yet obviously having different weak/strength points. Like how exactly can spies be ranged fighters when Tanks can make every fight close combat?
As for support classes, yes each would hafta have somthing to use when they're alone. They would also need somthing liek the Tank shield to protect them during an op war.
As far as necessity goes, I think that's a good thing. Everyone should be necessary for an op fight. Currently the problem with necessity is that only a few are needed, everyone else is superfluous. It would be nice if everyone had a role to perform in an op fight. Of course i understand what you're getting at, it'll be tough to make everyone important, yet not absolutely necessary to fight. It would be just as bad to have op fights only possible with one of each class or one of each type of required op fighter. That's the tough part to figure out: )
I say again. Agressive != kill.
You might believe parashocks are passive because the PPU cannot inflict any form of direct damage. No. Translate it to any other class and you will realize how agressive is that effect.
Passive is to alter your party capabilties, hence indirectly affecting the enemy. Buffs level 3 are passive forms of enhancing your party over the enemies; parashock is the agressive mean to do this. Buffs3 affect the power of your party, you need the party to affect your enemy. Parashocks affect directly the target negatively, it's a debuff. Shields are a passive mean to reduce the damage dealed by your enemy, again you need the party for this to work. Damage boost is the agressive counter-part, you reduce the targets capabilty to withstand damage.
If we took distract mind, and it made the target's reticle to close slower, it would be a debuff and thus agressive. If mind control made the caster invisible for the duration of the psi manipulation, it would be passive.
Aside this, EVERY class in my opinion has to have a way of dealing damage... call it smite for clerics or parashocks - soulclusters for PPUs; but it doesn't justify the nature of the spell or module, it is just the use. It is still agressive.
Originally posted by Carinth
If we went with this I would assume ppu's dont have the same crazy defenses they do either. Neither support role should have such a defense. Maybe a lil defense to get by on their own, but nothign to stand up to more then 2 ppl.
Exactly my point.
You are not meant to escape in any way, you are meant to enhance your party like no one else could do. Well I guess it was the idea, most PPUs preffer to not enhance the party that good but instead withstand an army.
Take this as an answer for you Shadow Dancer; if your role in the party is great, your means to survive are reduced and dependant to the party that you enhance. Of course once the extreme damage is gone, a basic heal and defence is required, but no way to compare it with a holy heal and holy shelter or deflector.
Spies are bitches because they don't have any party enhancer role.
/edit: I couldn't agree more with your last post Carinth. Oh and sorry for the quote, just wanted to agree with that.
Let me state my theory once more, which I still believe to be true...
Its not parashocks, its not S/D, its not Heals that make the PPU a pain to people. Its the mere idea of a pure support class in a PvP based game.
Clerics/healers are groovy when its PvM. Everyone like help is defeating the big bad mob.
But in Neocron, a PvP game, a pure support class is out of place.
I love my PPU monk, always have. And many know I have played a PPU monk since back when it was outright suckage to play one.
But I honestly dont see the PPU ever being "balanced" in this game.
Look at the suggestions people make- remove foreign cast S/D, nerf the heals, remove parashock... each one of those will just take away part of what it is to be a PPU. Even if PPU monks were nerfed to only use a blessed heal- PPUs would STILL be the most important class to have in combat.
Why? Because its the ONLY class dedicated to helping other classes. And hell, even if S/D is made self cast only, and PPUs only had BASIC heal- you would still have a fully buffed damageboosting/healing machine on the battlefield. If you assume that in the absence of PPUs, everything else is balanced... then the side with a PPU will still have the advantage, no matter what.
While I dont want monks removed (or PPU spells removed) I really cant imagine how they could change PPU monks so the monk whiners would think its "balanced" *and* the PPU monk would still be worth playing.
Maybe allowing certain classes to spec for heals, shields, etc... not only the PPU. But who knows.
Originally posted by Sleawer
Maybe allowing certain classes to spec for heals, shields, etc... not only the PPU. But who knows. Perhaps.
I think PPUs are okay save the effects parashock has on PvP. I blame that on Parashock itself, not the monks that use it of course.
But think about every other PvP game out there, where people run around in first person and do a lot of killing. How many of those have a class that ONLY can support and heal other classes?
I personally havent played any other game that is like that. Now some games DO have something CLOSE... but those games usually arent PvP and the healer doesnt have uber defense and does have some sort of offense.
The typical cleric has ACCESS to healing spells... but they are choice... they arent the only option.
So here in Neocron we have a class that cannot level by itself, and is totally dedicated to supporting other classes. THAT is the problem people.
OF COURSE the side with a PPU in combat has a huge advantage. OF COURSE you need a PPU for battle if the enemy has one. All the do is freakin keep people alive. It just makes sense.
If people would try and adapt their mindset to see PPUs for what they are (a brand new feature in online gaming) rather than seeing them for what they want them to be (a typical Cleric with possible healing ability but lacking super defense) then I think it would be far easier to balance the PPU itself.
Short of removing PPUs from the game entirely- as long as PPUs can heal better than other classes and as long as thats all they are supposed to do... nothing else matters, and PPUs WILL always be the most important class to have in combat.
Shadow Dancer
15-03-04, 16:47
Originally posted by Sleawer
Take this as an answer for you Shadow Dancer; if your role in the party is great, your means to survive are reduced and dependant to the party that you enhance. Of course once the extreme damage is gone, a basic heal and defence is required, but no way to compare it with a holy heal and holy shelter or deflector.
I'm not asking for uber defense. Just a good method of escaping or something. A "basic heal and defense" is not good enough for solo travel if our damage was signficantly cut down.
Also, I wouldn't be in favor of this idea if only ppus can protect/heal. If their are no medic classes, or classes that can protect the apu. That means the apu can't defend himself if someone directly attacks him in a fight. Which mean he HAS to be with a ppu at all times. Nah, apu shouldn't be changed to "ppu bitch". ;)
Originally posted by Sleawer
Spies are bitches because they don't have any party enhancer role.
And tanks and pes do?
Originally posted by Sleawer
/edit: I couldn't agree more with your last post Carinth. Oh and sorry for the quote, just wanted to agree with that.
Why the phobia of quotes? :p
Strych you're totally right man. Being the only pure support class in a pvp game like this is a big problem. It's hard for me to see PPUs being balanced as well.
:(
I think the support role of the ppu is more geared towards the RPG part of the game... well I don't know many FPS games with healers. There are some, but not like RPGs.
In other RPG games the healer class also depends on the team to level... it's true that there are alternative ways, but at the cost of your healing/support capabilities, not as good as a fighting devoted class, and of course not with the defence of ppus. In fact fighters have more defences as their role is smaller.
I have to disagree however with Strych's vision of the problem. This is not a problem of people wanting the PPU as in other games; but rather a problem of what the PPUs themselves want with their class. It's simply not possible to have all. The class has stupidly overpowered defences, what makes their huge role a problem in the game, and definetely is not possible to add any kind of offence to that class without overpowering it. Just no way.
In contrast to this, PPU players preffer to be less efficient for their team, have less impact in the game, and keep the extreme defence. THAT is the problem, people is not going to accept it. You nerf the effect of parashocks and people will complain about damage boost, you make self-cast S/D, and sooner or later people will moan about heals aswell, and then about ressurection... and if they don't complain about level3 buffs it's because they are very limited by timers, and not essential.
People will keep complaining about ONE class being too important. You cannot change that. There are only two things that make a class essential; these their supremacy in role-management and special dificulties to neutralize it.
You can keep nerfing their role, but if the PPU is the only one with that important role, until it is useless the class will still be essential and people will complain. We are moving towards that stage imo, well that's what PPUs are asking for at least.
That's my reason to keep APUs weak if we assume the role of debuffers. I don't want any mean to escape, I don't want to make out alive if my team dies... there is no point, my team is dead and I have failed, so shall die there aswell. If my team is so dumb to let me die first, then I should consider changing tactics or finding another team. THAT is balance to me, that is being fair.
And tanks and pes do?
What do you mean with this. This is why I hate quotes, I don't know what the heck you mean by quoting me a phrase out of a big post.
No, tanks and pe's don't have any party enhacer role aside damage, same with spies. But you mentioned spies, not pe's or tanks.
Or you just quoted this part to look funny or clever? I don't understand what you mean.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
So we would be like spies, except without TL 3 heal or stealth. Basically just targets out in the open.
Originally posted by Sleawer
Spies are bitches because they don't have any party enhancer role.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
And tanks and pes do?
:confused:
Shadow Dancer
15-03-04, 17:00
Originally posted by Sleawer
You can keep nerfing their role, but if the PPU is the only one with that important role, until it is useless the class will still be essential and people will complain. We are moving towards that stage imo, well that's what PPUs are asking for at least.
Isn't that basically what strych is saying?
Originally posted by Sleawer
That's my reason to keep APUs weak if we assume the role of debuffers. I don't want any mean to escape, I don't want to make out alive if my team dies... there is no point, my team is dead and I have failed, so shall die there aswell. If my team is so dumb to let me die first, then I should consider changing tactics or finding another team. THAT is balance to me, that is being fair.
Is hteir any particular reason you're seeing this so black and white sleawer? It's not like you.
It's not, uber shields+uber heal OR uber weak. Their IS a in-between.
What about solo apus then? What would a solo apu do then? Spies have stealth. PEs and tanks can fight back. PPUs have their defense.
Well, what about solo apus? And why does an apu have to be weak if he's no longer the extreme damage dealer? Remember, uber defense means nothing without uber healing. Why can't you significantly boost his defense without giving him massive healing capabilities? That way he's nice and sturdy, but will still die if he's the last person.
They don't do extreme damage. So there's NO reason to have extreme weakness. Shitty damage is already the tradeoff for being an offensive buffer. Shitty damage + shitty defense != fair
And what do you mean their is no point to making it out alive if team dies? That makes NO sense. If you can escape death, that's a good thing. Which is why many spies stealth out if they are the last ones living.
Originally posted by Sleawer
Or you just quoted this part to look funny or clever? I don't understand what you mean.
*sigh*
Originally posted by Sleawer
No, tanks and pe's don't have any party enhacer role aside damage, same with spies. But you mentioned spies, not pe's or tanks.
I said apus in this form, would be spies WITHOUT stealth. How many spies do you know without stealth? You said "spies are bitches because etc.......". But I never said anything about spies being bitches. You brought that up. Which is why I then mentioned pes and tanks, because I wanted to see if you thought they were "bitches" as well.
Understand?
Originally posted by Sleawer
I have to disagree however with Strych's vision of the problem. This is not a problem of people wanting the PPU as in other games; but rather a problem of what the PPUs themselves want with their class. It's simply not possible to have all. The class has stupidly overpowered defences, what makes their huge role a problem in the game, and definetely is not possible to add any kind of offence to that class without overpowering it. Just no way.Maybe you misspoke here, but its what KK wants, not what PPUs want.
No PPUs WANT to be overpowered. PPUs want balance just like everyone else.
I like the support role. Its fun and challenging to keep others alive in combat. THats what I want.
And I want balance. If I am expected (by KK, not by other PPUs) to level PURELY by relying on others, then I expect to be compensated properly.
If I can deal no real damage to others, I expect to be compensated properly. EVERY other game with a healing class has it so the healers can fight back... and often as well as the fighters. Or at least well enough to survive and advance in rank.
PPUs dont want it all, and they certainly dont have it all right now. Even if they are REQUIRED for an op war, that doesnt mean they are currently easy or fun to play.
No PPU has EVER asked for offense while keeping uber defense. Not that I have ever seen at least.
Shadow Dancer
15-03-04, 17:13
Strych, no ppus want to be overpowered?
Come on, :p
Some do.
If clerics are gonna be like clerics, then they should have their defense toned down and have some form of attack.
Sort of like 3rd edition DnD. They were good fights, not as good as the warrior classes though, and some healing/buffing/protection ability to boot.
Maybe the whole "Backrow" char thing can work if player runspeed was reduced and range of all weapons completely reworked. Hrmmmm.
The problem is is that you are all using analogies to argue your points, which may seem fine, BUT APPLY IT TO NEOCRON AND IT MEANS NOTHING. Neocron needs more than just anologies backing up arguements - so what if it seems like an aggressive spell? Will it help the game any to make it aggressive?
All the para/ppu ideas on these forums may seem like the best solution to you, but to the next guy it might seem like Neocron will dissolve into more chaos than it already is. You arent gonna be able to please everybody, but give evidence and you WILL convert more people. Apply it to Neocron, come up with situations, explain possible flaws, ask for improvements and argue your case. Dont rely on analogies and Real World logic, because that logic aint gonna help in Neocron honey, bringing the game into balance is more important than making it seem real.
I agree that para needs to be sorted, but few people consider all the points in their preliminary case, which doesnt help in trying to persuade people. And finally, in arguing your case, follow this rule.
ADD, DONT TAKE
Taking from this game makes people hate you. Adding will make people think you have big ideas with big plans, and hence you will convert them to your way of thinking. (I always thought that KK should disguise nerfs to say "Increased overall resistance to Disruptor," rather than "AHAHAHAHAHA, WE NERFED J00 DISRUPTOR TO HELL BITCHES!")
Just a few tips to the next person posting a "I have a Para solution that you will all love!" thread.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Is hteir any particular reason you're seeing this so black and white sleawer? It's not like you.
It's not, uber shields+uber heal OR uber weak. Their IS a in-between.
What about solo apus then? What would a solo apu do then? Spies have stealth. PEs and tanks can fight back. PPUs have their defense.
And that's what I'm saying.
It's not weak-ass defences like now, but not the same as a PE or Spy with stealth can do. APUs would have a great team role, unlike PEs and Spies. Don't expect to have their same survavility.
Well, what about solo apus? And why does an apu have to be weak if he's no longer the extreme damage dealer? Remember, uber defense means nothing without uber healing. Why can't you significantly boost his defense without giving him massive healing capabilities? That way he's nice and sturdy, but will still die if he's the last person.
They don't do extreme damage. So there's NO reason to have extreme weakness. Shitty damage is already the tradeoff for being an offensive buffer. Shitty damage + shitty defense != fair
What do you mean by solo APU. Dude decide then, solo class or team class, not both. 1vs1 situations don't count now, that is easy to balance taking the classes individually, I'm talking about team vs team.
Why do you want to survive if all your team is dead in a fight... it was the problem with PPUs and ressurection, and it got a nerf.
You would not deal extreme damage, true, but your importance in the battle would be rival to the ppu one... I don't believe that you want to have the same problems as PPUs. If the APU had that debuffer role, it would increase the class importance in the game. Giving the APU a way of scape, a way to survive, a godlike defence like PPUs would result in people wanting to reduce its importance again. Then why we moved in first place.
And what do you mean their is no point to making it out alive if team dies? That makes NO sense. If you can escape death, that's a good thing. Which is why many spies stealth out if they are the last ones living.
And what do you want escaping, Your team is dead dude, the other team is going to kill you unless you have the genrep 1m away. You can't do anything else, what is the reason to have a guaranteed way to scape the fight. I can't see it for APUs, can't see it for PPUs, can't see it for PEs or Tanks... and I have my doubts about spies.
Why do you think people ask for stealth spy-only?
Special means to escape guarantee imbalances, unless the counters for these are so effective that prevents you from doing it always.
Originally posted by Strych9
Maybe you misspoke here, but its what KK wants, not what PPUs want.
No PPUs WANT to be overpowered. PPUs want balance just like everyone else.
I like the support role. Its fun and challenging to keep others alive in combat. THats what I want.
And I want balance. If I am expected (by KK, not by other PPUs) to level PURELY by relying on others, then I expect to be compensated properly.
If I can deal no real damage to others, I expect to be compensated properly. EVERY other game with a healing class has it so the healers can fight back... and often as well as the fighters. Or at least well enough to survive and advance in rank.
PPUs dont want it all, and they certainly dont have it all right now. Even if they are REQUIRED for an op war, that doesnt mean they are currently easy or fun to play.
No PPU has EVER asked for offense while keeping uber defense. Not that I have ever seen at least.
I can name at least 5 right now, within 10 seconds of reading your post. Most of today's PPUs are yesterday's uber hybrids, who DID have PPU defence and still have offense. It's a sad fact, but a true one, that though the real PPUs want a balanced support role, there are twice as many people who only play PPUs because they think not dying makes them superior skilled. And they would gladly sacrifice being able to heal and shield other players so long as they still have uber defence and can parashock.
PPUs are in a terrible situation right now. Everyone hates them, but the real PPUs are the ones that suffer. In response to the ones that are PPUs for the defence and not the support, KK adds shield penetrating bullets, antiheal drones, HAB, and doesn't dow anything about TL3 heal, etc. The result? If you try to play a PPU properly, and heal/support your team mates, your life is a living hell as you get antibuffed, noob buffed, paraspammed, and everything else the other team can come up with to take you down. If you focus on staying alive as the defence based PPUs do, then they're not a problem. So the real PPUs suffer, and the lame PPUs aren't bothered.
Trouble is, there is no support for change. You've got Carinth, who thinks things through and posts realistic, workable ideas. You've got Pete and PK, who will support good ideas and point out why other won't work. Then you have practically every other PPU on the boards who simply says no to every idea suggested, and then whines when KK adds antishelter bullets to the SH.
Shadow Dancer
15-03-04, 17:21
Originally posted by Saza
Apply it to Neocron, come up with situations, explain possible flaws, ask for improvements and argue your case.
Right, because no one was doing that right?
Sounds like you read 3 posts in this thread. :angel:
Originally posted by Saza
I always thought that KK should disguise nerfs to say "Increased overall resistance to Disruptor," rather than "AHAHAHAHAHA, WE NERFED J00 DISRUPTOR TO HELL BITCHES!")
roflmao
Wouldn't it be funny if KK tried nerfed items/classes in roleplay?
"Due to severe cut backs, tangent will now be producing a slightly modified, slightly less powerful variation of the infiltration suit".
:p
Originally posted by Strych9
Maybe you misspoke here, but its what KK wants, not what PPUs want.
No PPUs WANT to be overpowered. PPUs want balance just like everyone else.
I like the support role. Its fun and challenging to keep others alive in combat. THats what I want.
And I want balance. If I am expected (by KK, not by other PPUs) to level PURELY by relying on others, then I expect to be compensated properly.
If I can deal no real damage to others, I expect to be compensated properly. EVERY other game with a healing class has it so the healers can fight back... and often as well as the fighters. Or at least well enough to survive and advance in rank.
PPUs dont want it all, and they certainly dont have it all right now. Even if they are REQUIRED for an op war, that doesnt mean they are currently easy or fun to play.
No PPU has EVER asked for offense while keeping uber defense. Not that I have ever seen at least.
You did not mis-spoke. But it is not what KK wants either... well at least KK is doing what we ask for, no less. Each time someone asks for 'anything' different than nerfing the PPU role itself, there is an avalanche of PPUs whinning. I'm scared to post any idea... god save PPUs.
We have suggested incountable ways to balance PPUs, yet all were disregarded. Maybe you and still some others want this:
"I like the support role. Its fun and challenging to keep others alive in combat. THats what I want."
This is honourable, but doesn't seem to be what PPUs want. More support role doesn't combine well with powerful defences, the class becomes insanely hard to neutralize and very important for the group at the same time. But people preffers S/D at full potency and self-cast only, rather than support role at full potency and rely on the team to survive.
Originally posted by Sleawer
You did not mis-spoke. But it is not what KK wants either.
We have suggested incountable ways to balance PPUs, yet all were disregarded. Maybe you and still some others want this:
"I like the support role. Its fun and challenging to keep others alive in combat. THats what I want."
This is honourable, but doesn't seem to be what PPUs want. More support role doesn't combine well with powerful defences, the class becomes insanely hard to neutralize and very important for the group at the same time. But people preffers S/D at full potency and self-cast only, rather than support role at full potency and rely on the team to survive. I still say you are having an issue conceptualizing the PPU as something other than a cleric.
You say that support doesnt combine well with defense. What ELSE could it possibly combine with? We are talking about a class with ZERO offense in a PvP game... a game based on attacking others. If someone cannot attack... it makes sense that they CAN defend.
And if you suggest that they cant attack OR defend, and should ONLY be able to support OTHERS- then I would buy that IF the team had ANY sort of way of keeping them alive.
But in this game, you cannot protect another runner except with buffs. If you suggest that the PPU should have no offense AND no defense... then just scrap the class altogether. Cause that just wont work in Neocron.
The problem is that its impossible to rely on the team to survive in PvP. PvM you can attract aggro. In PvP, you cannot. In PvP, support char without offense and defense is pointless.
Shadow Dancer
15-03-04, 17:40
Originally posted by Sleawer
And that's what I'm saying.
It's not weak-ass defences like now, but not the same as a PE or Spy with stealth can do. APUs would have a great team role, unlike PEs and Spies. Don't expect to have their same survavility.
Unlike pes and spies, the apu wouldn't be able to fight back either. I thought THAT was the tradeoff for a great "team" role.
Using your logic, ppus should have low defense since they have a great team role. Yea let's see how long they last in a fight with that.
If they don't have good defense and can't fight back, their just cattle regardless of how good their abilities are.
They would need a ppu up their ass 24/7. You would seriously have to strengthen the support role of apus. But you don't want apus to become the next 'omg we need them' class do you?
Originally posted by Sleawer
What do you mean by solo APU. Dude decide then, solo class or team class, not both. 1vs1 situations don't count now, that is easy to balance taking the classes individually, I'm talking about team vs team.
Solo apu. An apu traveling alone. A ppu traveling alone can run and escape, maybe even parashock his opponent to run. He certainly can't die. Some pes use stealth, AND they can fight back.
You want the apu to have no method of escape, low defense, and low offense? So basically he can't go out alone now without a ppu?
Great idea..........not.
If you're talking about team vs team, then I still disagree with you. Low offense and low defense is too great a disadvantage. As long as they have low or crappy offense, then that is already a tradeoff for having debuffing abilities that don't directly kill an opponent. It'd be nice if they didn't die in 1 second flat without the aid of a ppu in an op war. One reason I survive a bit longer in an op war is because i cna fight back with great offense. Otherwise I would be dying left and right too easily. You can't expect ppus to be on this "new" apu 24/7. That's just unrealistic.
Originally posted by Sleawer
Why do you want to survive if all your team is dead in a fight
This doesn't even make sense. When i'm talking about escaping, i'm mostly talking traveling alone or without a ppu. Since they cannot FIGHT BACKCKCKKCKCKCKC(jesus), then they should have some special form of escape or defense.
In a team, it's fine if they die if their team is dead. Something many pes, spies, and tanks go through. I'm saying that your statement "why do you want to survive if you team is dead" is a silly one. It's like saying "why do you want more money". Do you really want an answer?
Escaping death is a good thing Sleawer. Why would you want to die, is a better question. lol
Let me clarfiy my position. My request for a method of escape is for lone traveling apus or apus without ppus. That's why spies love stealth. Finally they could go places without being such an easy target.
For the team position. They just would need more defense. Because if they don't have their extreme offense to help them defend themselves, then they need something to make them last a bit longer. And expect a ppu to always have them healed and shielded is about as realistic as KK making a deadline. :p
I hope you understand my position.
And like I said, unless their support abilities is GODLIKE, they don't deserve TWO disadvantage of shitty offense AND defense. The shitty defense was always meant to balance their offense.
And I don't want their support abilities godlike anyways, the last thing we need is another class with "PPU" syndrome.
Originally posted by Sleawer
Giving the APU a way of scape, a way to survive, a godlike defence like PPUs would result in people wanting to reduce its importance again. Then why we moved in first place.
Giving apus a way to escape wouldn't make them godlike, or spies can be considered godlike.
Like I said many times, you seriously need to read this part now because i'm getting tired of repeating it, I DO NOT WANT THEM TO HAVE PPU DEFENSE!! OK!!!!!????
Why do you keep saying "what do you want, godlike ppu defense? what do you want, uber heals and shields?"
Come on dude. I said more defense. Signficantly more actually. But as long as they dont' have uber healing, they will never anywhere near the defense level of ppus. I don't see how they would be overpowered with alot more defense. If they can't directly kill you, or even HEAL.
And about giving them a method to escape. IT simply depends on the method. It doesn't have to be crazy or overpowered. Like I suggested before, a thorn or elemental shield that deals great damage to the person attacking the apu, but in return the apu can't cast anything. 2-3 people could still kill him easy. But he wouldn't be a walking "bitch" that can die to ANYONE because he can't escape or fight back.
That's not balanced?
Originally posted by Strych9
You say that support doesnt combine well with defense. What ELSE could it possibly combine with? We are talking about a class with ZERO offense in a PvP game... a game based on attacking others. If someone cannot attack... it makes sense that they CAN defend.
And if you suggest that they cant attack OR defend, and should ONLY be able to support OTHERS- then I would buy that IF the team had ANY sort of way of keeping them alive.
But in this game, you cannot protect another runner except with buffs. If you suggest that the PPU should have no offense AND no defense... then just scrap the class altogether. Cause that just wont work in Neocron.
The problem is that its impossible to rely on the team to survive in PvP. PvM you can attract aggro. In PvP, you cannot. In PvP, support char without offense and defense is pointless.
A-fucking-men.
Sleawer, this is precisely why i'm saying the idea of an apu with shit offense AND defense will NOT work.
Strych hit the nail on the head, or whatever the hell the term is. :D
I don't like the idea of uber defense and pure support, but pure support in THIS game doesn't work without uber defense. At least not the way it is at the moment.
hrmmmm
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Right, because no one was doing that right?
Never said that Shads, note I said FEW people do this. You are one of the few, Ive always admired youre style of arguing things (as I have Quantam Deltas and Heavyporkers) but Shujin over here didnt refer to how this would balance Neocron at all in his original post. Thats not a good way to get people on your side. I havent read all of the posts in this thread - see below to find out why.
Originally posted by Saza
Para is, and will, always screw this game until a solution, a VIABLE solution is found. Stop already with the Para is fine, cuz thats just BS. And stop thinking that a solution is gonna be pulled outta your ass in 5 secs flat cuz what usually comes out of ure ass will please more people. Not everyone will like a decision to remove Para, even for a short time, but ffs, its the only way to go for now.
Nuff
Fricking
Said
and pwned.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Wouldn't it be funny if KK tried nerfed items/classes in roleplay?
Role...play? :confused:
Shadow Dancer
15-03-04, 17:46
Originally posted by Saza
Never said that Shads, note I said FEW people do this. You are one of the few, Ive always admired youre style of arguing things (as I have Quantam Deltas and Heavyporkers) but Shujin over here didnt refer to how this would balance Neocron at all in his original post. Thats not a good way to get people on your side. I havent read all of the posts in this thread - see below to find out why.
My mistake.
:p
Originally posted by Saza
Role...play? :confused:
Lol. You know what I mean right?
Or are you being sarcastic and implying that RP and Neocron don't mix? hehe
Originally posted by Saza
Never said that Shads, note I said FEW people do this. You are one of the few, Ive always admired youre style of arguing things (as I have Quantam Deltas and Heavyporkers) but Shujin over here didnt refer to how this would balance Neocron at all in his original post. Thats not a good way to get people on your side. I havent read all of the posts in this thread - see below to find out why.
Role...play? :confused: im not asking that it should be APU, and im not saying it would balance the game to be APU, im just saying its not passive, so why is it ppu, using it is agressive.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Unlike pes and spies, the apu wouldn't be able to fight back either. I thought THAT was the tradeoff for a great "team" role.
Using your logic, ppus should have low defense since they have a great team role. Yea let's see how long they last in a fight with that.
If they don't have good defense and can't fight back, their just cattle regardless of how good their abilities are.
They would need a ppu up their ass 24/7. You would seriously have to strengthen the support role of apus. But you don't want apus to become the next 'omg we need them' class do you?
Who said that APUs would not have offence. You would not have extreme offence, which is a very different thing. Your tradeoff for losing the extreme offence would be better defence AND a great team-role.
Do you think that your APU can escape anywhere right now? lol, what are you asking for, you already do not have it.
And yes, using my logic PPUs would not have insane defences, but in tradeoff they could get a BETTER support role, and some kind of offence to level and fight (and win) on their own.
Doesn't seem that bad to me.
Solo apu. An apu traveling alone. A ppu traveling alone can run and escape, maybe even parashock his opponent to run. He certainly can't die. Some pes use stealth, AND they can fight back.
Solo APU.. NOW... cannot escape traveling alone unless it is an 1vs1/2 situation. And you critiquize my reasoning because you STILL would not be able to do it. OK.
You want the apu to have no method of escape, low defense, and low offense? So basically he can't go out alone now without a ppu?
Great idea..........not.
Get a clue of what I am saying. This is a reasoning to explain what is balance.. not some sort of 'idea' that I want to explain. It is using the correct situation for the APU as analogy to compare what should be the PPU.
Read above if you still need more clues. APUs still would be able to fight on their own, their defence would be better, and their team role would be equal to the PPU.
That's what a PPU should be, Just that saying something like this for PPUs is tabu.
If you're talking about team vs team, then I still disagree with you. Low offense and low defense is too great a disadvantage. As long as they have low or crappy offense, then that is already a tradeoff for having debuffing abilities that don't directly kill an opponent. It'd be nice if they didn't die in 1 second flat without the aid of a ppu in an op war. One reason I survive a bit longer in an op war is because i cna fight back with great offense. Otherwise I would be dying left and right too easily. You can't expect ppus to be on this "new" apu 24/7. That's just unrealistic.
I have the feeling that I'm replying the same argument over and over in all your paragraphs O_o
Read above.
This doesn't even make sense. When i'm talking about escaping, i'm mostly talking traveling alone or without a ppu. Since they cannot FIGHT BACKCKCKKCKCKCKC(jesus), then they should have some special form of escape or defense.
Now I'm sure... you are just saying the same over and over. Somewhere I have explained myself wrong or you have lost yourself.
APUs would be able to fight back
PPUs would be able to figth back
But the extremes would be eliminated.
I know it is impossible now for PPUs, since most of them enjoy the extreme defence, so the decision is to nerf their role. THEIR decision.
As APU, it would not be my decision. I don't want extreme offence and extreme support role, I dont want extreme defence and extreme support role either.
In a team, it's fine if they die if their team is dead. Something many pes, spies, and tanks go through. I'm saying that your statement "why do you want to survive if you team is dead" is a silly one. It's like saying "why do you want more money". Do you really want an answer?
Yes I want an answer.
Why do you want money if you already have everything that you need?
Why do you want to survive if you have failed, if your team is dead, if you have lost the battle? To brag in OCC of your leet surviving skills? Why?
Escaping death is a good thing Sleawer. Why would you want to die, is a better question. lol
Because I accept the consequences of my actions, that's why. I went there to fight, if we do well we win and all survive, and the ones that don't are rezzed. If we fail we die, or we run and take a GenRep.
Why do I need an 'special' way to survive. Why I am special?
If you have skills to escape, good for you, but you don't deserve advantages to do it.
Let me clarfiy my position. My request for a method of escape is for lone traveling apus or apus without ppus. That's why spies love stealth. Finally they could go places without being such an easy target.
For the team position. They just would need more defense. Because if they don't have their extreme offense to help them defend themselves, then they need something to make them last a bit longer. And expect a ppu to always have them healed and shielded is about as realistic as KK making a deadline.
I hope you understand my position.
I understand your position, it's reasonable. But I don't agree with it, I don't 'share' it.
Lone traveling APUs currently cannot escape, they can fight or die. Aside spies and stealth, which is the cause of many troubles in-forum and in-game, everyone has the same situation.
APUs do not need PPUs now and still would not need them if suddenly were transformed into agressive buffers (inverse PPUs). But as I said above, this is my reasoning ON APUs of what PPUs should be.
For the team position they would not need more defence, they should remain the same to keep the balance. In addition to this, they would have a wider team-role to share.
I would be more scared of being too important.
I hope you get MY point.
And like I said, unless their support abilities is GODLIKE, they don't deserve TWO disadvantage of shitty offense AND defense. The shitty defense was always meant to balance their offense.
And I don't want their support abilities godlike anyways, the last thing we need is another class with "PPU" syndrome.
Agreed. But this do not disregard my opinion, you are just agreeing with me.
Giving apus a way to escape wouldn't make them godlike, or spies can be considered godlike.
Like I said many times, you seriously need to read this part now because i'm getting tired of repeating it, I DO NOT WANT THEM TO HAVE PPU DEFENSE!! OK!!!!!????.
APUs are not spies, they would have a greater support role than spies, they would be more important. IF SPIES HAD PPU IMPORTANCE THEY WOULD BE GODLIKE WITH STEALTH.
Do you get that point now that I write in caps like you?
The PPU situation is even worse, because the PPU can survive WHILE doing its role, whereas spies can't do anything else while stealthed.
Sleawer, this is precisely why i'm saying the idea of an apu with shit offense AND defense will NOT work.
For the last time, I'm not saying SHIT defence/offence. I've said extreme damage reduced and defence enhanced, but not at the level of PEs.
Originally posted by Strych9
I still say you are having an issue conceptualizing the PPU as something other than a cleric.
You say that support doesnt combine well with defense. What ELSE could it possibly combine with? We are talking about a class with ZERO offense in a PvP game... a game based on attacking others. If someone cannot attack... it makes sense that they CAN defend.
And if you suggest that they cant attack OR defend, and should ONLY be able to support OTHERS- then I would buy that IF the team had ANY sort of way of keeping them alive.
But in this game, you cannot protect another runner except with buffs. If you suggest that the PPU should have no offense AND no defense... then just scrap the class altogether. Cause that just wont work in Neocron.
The problem is that its impossible to rely on the team to survive in PvP. PvM you can attract aggro. In PvP, you cannot. In PvP, support char without offense and defense is pointless.
Strych, extreme importance doesn't combine AT ALL with godlike defence. The idea of a class that cannot attack is ridiculous, but the idea of having a class extremely important and unique in its role while keeping extreme OFFENCE or DEFENCE is even worse.
Where do you think the idea of self-cast shelter/deflector came from.... people don't want an extremely protected buffing machine in the battle field. Not enhancing other classes beyond their limits, hence people complain about the powerful support of the PPU.
To me is the same, they can keep it.... the class will turn into an annoyance, more classes will have HAB, anti shields, anti-heals, TL-3 heals or everything that can make the class more annoying.
Don't make assumptions, it doesn't fit you. I'm not suggesting anything but what I write. Read my thoughts about the APU, apply them to the PPU... then you won't need to make assumptions about what I 'suggest'.
If my APU had the role-management that PPUs have, I would not like for him either extreme offence or deffence, I'd want him to be balanced in both. THAT is the only way to go if you want to keep the class fun to play and balanced.
Shadow Dancer
15-03-04, 18:28
Originally posted by Sleawer
Who said that APUs would not have offence. You would not have extreme offence, which is a very different thing. Your tradeoff for losing the extreme offence would be better defence AND a great team-role.
Ok. It depends on how much defense you get compared to how much offense you lose.
Let's say there's a % of defense and offense. A tank let's say is 50/50. A pe 70/30. A ppu 100/0.
Would you agree with that?
Let's say an apu, atm, is 10/90. Would you agree with that?
Now, would your "new" apu have 30/70? or 40/60? Or some other balanced ratio?
Or would he lose more offense than defense gained? If so, are you saying that his extra "support" abilities would make up for that extra offense lost? Would it make up for it in team play only? Or also in 1v1?
Much like a good apu can kill a good tank or PE now and vice versa, will the "new" apu be able to kill a good tank or pe now 1v1?
See, the way you were describing it made it seem like the "new" apu couldn't do 1v1. Ya dig?
Originally posted by Sleawer
Solo APU.. NOW... cannot escape traveling alone unless it is an 1vs1/2 situation. And you critiquize my reasoning because you STILL would not be able to do it. OK.
Yes but he can fight back, and uhh KILL his opponent.
Read above.
Originally posted by Sleawer
and their team role would be equal to the PPU.
The ppu now? Or the ppu after he's balanced?
O_o
Originally posted by Sleawer
Yes I want an answer.
Why do you want money if you already have everything that you need?
Why do you want to survive if you have failed, if your team is dead, if you have lost the battle? To brag in OCC of your leet surviving skills? Why?
Because I accept the consequences of my actions, that's why. I went there to fight, if we do well we win and all survive, and the ones that don't are rezzed. If we fail we die, or we run and take a GenRep.
I'm not going to continue wasting my time with this point anymore.
Originally posted by Sleawer
Why do I need an 'special' way to survive. Why I am special?
If you have skills to escape, good for you, but you don't deserve advantages to do it.
55th time- For solo or traveling alone. The impression you gave me was that apus wouldn't be able to do 1v1. If that's not the case, then NVM about my point. If that IS the case, then my point still stands.
Originally posted by Sleawer
Lone traveling APUs currently cannot escape, they can fight or die.
Read above.
Originally posted by Sleawer
For the last time, I'm not saying SHIT defence/offence. I've said extreme damage reduced and defence enhanced, but not at the level of PEs.
Like I said above, it depends on whether or not the amount of offense lost is equal to the amount of defense gained.
Yea Shadow I'd agree with that, something balanced.
Again what I would not like for my APU is to keep extreme offence while an extremely important role, like the PPU.
Look, this is not changing APUs, I don't have interest on tweaking the class... at least not inmediately. It is just another way to tackle the subject.
If your APU role suddently was as important as the PPU role... imagine anti-shields, damage boosts, resist-debuffs, parashocks, life drains, etc... would you want him to keep the current extreme offence? would want to have extreme defence? or instead you would preffer to have balance between both?
This is the argument that I am using as analogy with PPUs. These are very important roles, that also are held by only the monk class. Personally I'd like balanced offence and defence. Any of those balanced ratios that you explained above.
If we kept the extreme offence and shitty defence, people would complain because we are too important, we can kill insanely fast, and coupled with a PPU we would be insane.
If we had extreme defence, we would have what you said before... "another class with PPU syndrome" :lol:
Bad in both cases I'd say. Well that's what I think about PPUs. But PPUs already have chosen their path, they do not seem to hear other's suggestions... so instead they preffer to nerf their role. I would not like that for my APU, and I say it openly... that's why I can't understand the reason PPUs want it for themselves.
Well I think I know why; it is more on the line of what Scikar have said.
Shadow Dancer
15-03-04, 18:53
The only reason I was against your idea was because I thought you wanted only a little more defense in exchange for alot of loss offense. You know I don't mind losing extreme offense.
I'm only for the idea if.....
1.The offense lost is equal to the defense gained.
2.Offense is lost, but they have special defensive measures to help them out when they are alone or traveling without a ppu.
I prefer the first one, easier to balance and more fun.
As much fun as i'm having with the APU now, I don't think he should be a simple "tons of offense, little defense, point and click" class the way he is now. He should be the way we both describe.
As for ppus. I gave up on ever suggesting anything that is even "Slightly" radical for them. :p
if you want to get some defence for the the loss of attack be like me go hybrid:angel:
Shadow Dancer
15-03-04, 18:59
Originally posted by ezza
if you want to get some defence for the the loss of attack be like me go hybrid:angel:
That has nothing to do with what me and Sleawer are talking about, lol.
So here's another irrelevant comment. Pluto>saturn
lol :p
Lol SD it's not an APU idea... I used the APU to show my point of view of what a PPU would be balanced. I don't mind to change APUs either hehe, it would be more fun and enjoyable but that's another thread :p
Look:
I'm only for the idea if.....
1.The defense lost is equal to the offense gained.
2.Defense is lost, but they have special offensive measures to help them out when they are alone or traveling without an apu.
;)
Originally posted by Sleawer
Strych, extreme importance doesn't combine AT ALL with godlike defence. The idea of a class that cannot attack is ridiculous, but the idea of having a class extremely important and unique in its role while keeping extreme OFFENCE or DEFENCE is even worse.Extreme importance isnt some skill that PPUs have... thats only the value people place on them. Regardless of the value that people place on a PPU, you still must address the offense and defense issue. APUs are also EXTREMELY IMPORTANT in an op fight cause of their offense- so thats not something unique to PPUs. Afterall, you CAN have an opfight with no PPUs. You cannot have an opfight with ONLY PPUs.
If you want to give them offense and decrease defense, that is fine. But as it stands now, something must balance out with their supreme LACK of offense in a game BASED on attacking other people. And the fact they MUST have a team to level yet the team CANNOT do anything to keep them alive in combat.
Where do you think the idea of self-cast shelter/deflector came from.... people don't want an extremely protected buffing machine in the battle field. Not enhancing other classes beyond their limits, hence people complain about the powerful support of the PPU.And my argument is that its not powerful support- its just support at all. Like I said, give PPU monks only blessed heal and remove foreign cast buffs, and they are STILL gonna be extremely important just because their only task is to help other runners.
And self cast buffs would mean little. I, and others, think that the heals are what make them so relied upon by other runners. Their whole point is to heal others, and healing others is what makes them so important. Its tied to their ROLE itself.
Don't make assumptions, I doesn't fit you. I'm not suggesting anything but what I write. Read my thoughts about the APU, apply them to the PPU... then you won't need to make assumptions about what I 'suggest'.Come on now, I always said "if" you suggest something. I never assumed anything. :rolleyes: And if I am so off base, just tell me what you want done to the PPU class to fix it and then I can deal with EXACTLY what you say.
If my APU had the role-management that PPUs have, I would not like for him either extreme offence or deffence, I'd want him to be balanced in both. THAT is the only way to go if you want to keep the class fun to play and balanced. The APU is pretty much pure offense. (pure APU I mean, not hybrid). Why dont people complain about the APU ruining op wars? Because the APU attacks- and that what people do in Neocron. The tank attacks, the PE attacks, the Spy attacks. All classes attack. The PPU doesnt attack. Instead of attacking, it helps the attackers.
If PEs suddenly stopped attacking and just stealthed around casting their basic heals, blessed deflectors, and shelters- people would complain about PEs ruining op fights as well.
I have yet to hear any description of how a PPU should function in this game that would
1. leave the PPU is a worthwhile class to play
2. solve the problems that people have with the PPU
A lot of the problems that people have with the PPU, I think, is perception based. They do like the fact that the PPU cant be easily killed, yet they dont mind that the PPU has no way of attacking or even defending themselves.
Shadow Dancer
15-03-04, 19:09
Originally posted by Strych9
If PEs suddenly stopped attacking and just stealthed around casting their basic heals, blessed deflectors, and shelters- people would complain about PEs ruining op fights as well.
No they won't.
PE can die easily. pe can't buff/heal while stealthed, and pe buffs on other people doesn't make enough of a difference for them to ruin it.
Originally posted by Strych9
Extreme importance isnt some skill that PPUs have... thats only the value people place on them. Regardless of the value that people place on a PPU, you still must address the offense and defense issue. APUs are also EXTREMELY IMPORTANT in an op fight cause of their offense- so thats not something unique to PPUs. Afterall, you CAN have an opfight with no PPUs. You cannot have an opfight with ONLY PPUs.
Sure Strych, but if the enemy has APUs you don't suddenly need APUs in your team to win. Importance is something that people concede to things, but I'm sure we all have similar concepts of importance in this game.
If you want to give them offense and decrease defense, that is fine. But as it stands now, something must balance out with their supreme LACK of offense in a game BASED on attacking other people. And the fact they MUST have a team to level yet the team CANNOT do anything to keep them alive in combat.
Sure, read above what I would do with APUs.
And my argument is that its not powerful support- its just support at all. Like I said, give PPU monks only blessed heal and remove foreign cast buffs, and they are STILL gonna be extremely important just because their only task is to help other runners.
And self cast buffs would mean little. I, and others, think that the heals are what make them so relied upon by other runners. Their whole point is to heal others, and healing others is what makes them so important. Its tied to their ROLE itself.
.
It's not powerful support the problem then... I must have missed that part between nerf HOLY heals and make SELF-CAST shelter/deflector.
We agree in something tho, self-cast buffs will mean little. That's something you have to convice of to your fellow PPUs, not me. Nerfing heals is the same to me than making self-cast shelter/deflector... really those are other's ideas. I just accept them
Come on now, I always said "if" you suggest something. I never assumed anything. :rolleyes: And if I am so off base, just tell me what you want done to the PPU class to fix it and then I can deal with EXACTLY what you say
Eh? You must be mistaken dude, I was chatting with SD about some changes related to APUs. I don't have any interest to suggest more direct ideas regarding PPUs, they all end disregarded and me flamed. And after all you are turning to be another PPU.
The APU is pretty much pure offense. (pure APU I mean, not hybrid). Why dont people complain about the APU ruining op wars? Because the APU attacks- and that what people do in Neocron. The tank attacks, the PE attacks, the Spy attacks. All classes attack. The PPU doesnt attack. Instead of attacking, it helps the attackers.
Oh they do believe me, people hate APUs almost as much as PPUs. It's just that bringing an APU into an OP war doesn't force the other team to bring another. Also the APU without the PPU is pretty much balanced.
The PPU however... well I tried to explain you why people complain about PPUs, you don't seem like listening.
If PEs suddenly stopped attacking and just stealthed around casting their basic heals, blessed deflectors, and shelters- people would complain about PEs ruining op fights as well.
I doubt it.
I have yet to hear any description of how a PPU should function in this game that would
1. leave the PPU is a worthwhile class to play
2. solve the problems that people have with the PPU
I tried to make one with the APU some posts above. You might try to use with PPUs if you want.... not that I'm suggesting anything.
A lot of the problems that people have with the PPU, I think, is perception based. They do like the fact that the PPU cant be easily killed, yet they dont mind that the PPU has no way of attacking or even defending themselves.
I think that problems are more related to balance, not perception.
I'd discuss deeply with you Strych, but I don't feel like being totally flamed by a PPU just because he is making assumptions of why I believe ppus are broken.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
My mistake.
:p
Tis OK, I make those rare mistakes too :D . (Sorry about the long time to reply, got bollocked in IT for being on the forums even though I'm the first to hand in the coursework :mad: . )
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Lol. You know what I mean right?
Or are you being sarcastic and implying that RP and Neocron don't mix? hehe
Forgot the :rolleyes: and the /sarcasm tags :D . Yes I know what RP is, just look on the Role Play Pluto forums, but I also know how many people indulge in it, round about the same proportion as those who have done their IT coursework in my school (see above).
Originally posted by Shujin
im not asking that it should be APU, and im not saying it would balance the game to be APU, im just saying its not passive, so why is it ppu, using it is agressive.
OK, since you love to make things simple for us (loving the Ghandi picture :lol: ) I'll make this simple for you. Dont worry, dearie, Ill hold your hand if it gets to hard to understand. Watch carefully now:
Originally posted by Saza
Apply it to Neocron, come up with situations, explain possible flaws, ask for improvements and argue your case. Dont rely on analogies and Real World logic, because that logic aint gonna help in Neocron honey, bringing the game into balance is more important than making it seem real.
Ooooooooo k?
Edit: Can you go higher than size 10? I dont think its big enough :D
Edit Edit: Thats better ;)
How about removing every PPU module above the first ressurrect except sanctums, move them down to TL 55 or so and make them tick slower, removing the hybrid nerf completely, and making every monk a hybrid? :o :p
I'm only half kidding. o_O
Originally posted by Glok
How about removing every PPU module above the first ressurrect except sanctums, move them down to TL 55 or so and make them tick slower, removing the hybrid nerf completely, and making every monk a hybrid? :o :p
I'm only half kidding. o_O
Sarcasm doesnt travel well through wires, thats why god invented the sarcasmic face (sarcasmic... sounds like a sex-related adjective :p ). So is that sarcasm or what? I'm a dumbass
So anyway Shujin, did you realise what I am on about? Or do I have to find a picture to help :confused:
Originally posted by Saza
So is that sarcasm or what? I'm a dumbassIt's half sarcasm. It really would balance monks, imo, but it is incredibly drastic.
If parashock is aggressive, then you can make the same argument for all of ppu's spells. It's a buff the same as the rest. I weaken my enemies so they can be killed easier. I strengthen my friends so they can kill easier. The effect is the same, just the target is different. By sheltering someone I have done the same effect to you as if I had a "reduce damage output spell" to cast on you. I seriously doubt you want to say shelter is an agrressive spell, but you can't differentiate it from dmg boost.
I don't see how an indirect spell can be considered aggressive. Maybe we're using different meanings of the words? If you consider an aggressive act to be both the act and what caused the act, then what is passivity? You can't call shelters passive, because by casting shelter on someone I've made it easier for them to stay alive and thus to kill their enemies. That's aggressive by your standards.
It's interesting in this thread to see ppu's consider the community/kk to be the problem, whereas the non ppu's say ppu's/kk are the problem. I don't run into these ppu's in denial that often, but they must exist. As said they're ex hybrids, forced to change by the hybrid nerfs. But you can't seriously say they are a louder group then the anti ppu community? Every time I turn around there's an anti ppu thread. Ingame it's even worse. Most often their ideas/suggestions are totaly hostile to ppu's. It's like they think ppu's hafta be eradicated before they can have fun again. That it's not possible for ppu's to have fun and for them to have fun. You say you're afraid to post ideas because of the ppu's that will disagree with everything? Well I often don't post ideas because of the hostile community. I feel like I'm standing up to a Tsunami hitting the coast. Nomatter what I say, I won't change anyone's opinions. Nomatter how many good ideas and alternatives I suggest, it won't be deflected. I can see the wave coming, I know it's gonna be bad, all I can do is hold on and hope I'm not hurt too badly. The only reason I do still post is because it's nice to have other ppu's pop up and show their support.
Well, in contradiction to my post above, I like having PPUs around. Everything becomes so much easier and enjoyable. So don't take my words to heart, Carinth. :)
Maybe Passive is just a figure of speech.
We could rename
APU to wizard
PPU to Priest
Maybe that would make you feel better. Go in for some nice old school titles.
Get something better to do than look up words at dictionary.com and go into the study of ghandi and demand cause a chars title has a word in it that it must meet that words deffinition to extreme exactness.
I mean Monk is a Religous person who lives in solitude and devotes himself to religon so take everything away from APU and PPU and make it so they cant leave the crahn church.
I kinda like the make up for in support idea, so long as the offense doesn't drop too low. Consider this:
The APU is given damage boost, he has a low RoF on it but can still runcast (would need some tweaking, though best way would be make the damage cap for damage boost 5000% or something with RoF of say 25/min). The idea being that he can plant damage boost on a runner if he needs to but against several enemies he can't DB everyone.
He also is given a 'summon' ability. RP - he uses his Psi powers to teleport a mob into the area. Higher levels of the spell would not go up to Grims etc. but would instead spawn multiple mobs. So maybe highest level rare would spawn 2 WBs in. Nothing too powerful, nothing that would kill a whole team, but if you have 3 APUs in a team that means 6 WBs, which is at least something to think about. The cast time would need to be about the same as the DB though for the high level spells, while lower for low level mobs (like you could spawn some Launcher Cyclops in pretty quickly, but the WBs might take a while). The actual number would depend on damage %, so a low level apu who capped his Poisonous Fierce Spider spell might get 5 spiders out of it.
The idea is that the APU on his own stands no chance at all in a 2v1. A Tank can get lucky and kill the first with a fair bit of HP left to take the second. A PE or spy can stealth, heal up, and come back. The solo APU cannot - so instead he spawns some mobs. The mobs won't win the fight for him, but they might at least cause something of a distraction, long enough to run away or give him a chance in the fight. In a 1v1 it's not unbalancing either - if the APU casts a quick low level spell, then it won't be enough to turn the tide in his favour. If he spawns 2 WBs, then it would take him so long he would probably die. Spawned mobs would not drop loot at all.
What do you think?
And Carinth, just look in those anti-PPU threads. The reasonable PPUs like yourself say why it's bad, and what would be better. The PPUs in denial say no and then bullshit.
The use of the module only determines the behaviour of the caster, which indeed can be agressive and passive.
The effect of the modules is what really determines its definition. You are going too far to determine the effect. You should have stopped in enhance and weaken. That is what determines the agressive or passive action of the PPU itself.
Of course both modules have one double-effect, and it is the team-role capability, support. Both modules have support effects. However one directly enhances your party while indirectly affecting your enemies, the other affects directly the enemy while affecting indirectly your party.
The latter can be said aswell for damage. Damage harms the enemy party directly, and indirectly helps you allied party.
That's the simple definition of support.
I liked something that you have said...
I weaken my enemies so they can be killed easier. I strengthen my friends so they can kill easier.
The very foundations of agressive and passive. Of course the final effect is supporting, but support can be either agressive and passive.
About PPUs.... I'd like that class fun for all, specially for the people playing it, enjoyable and confortable. Rewarding and balanced. Seriously.
Originally posted by Sleawer
Eh? You must be mistaken dude, I was chatting with SD about some changes related to APUs. I don't have any interest to suggest more direct ideas regarding PPUs, they all end disregarded and me flamed. And after all you are turning to be another PPU.WHat on earth?
1. I respond about PPUs. I am going through scenarios. I say "If you suggest..." which is just a rhetorical phrase meaning "if you were to suggest" or "if one were to advocate the following alternative...". I wasnt saying you actually said anything.
2. You freak out telling me not to assume you made a suggestion.
Just drop this already. I read what you said about the APU. I am not sure why you got so weirded out about me responding to possible alternatives to my advocacy, but I will be sure not to do it again in a thread with you.
And what the hell does that mean about me being a PPU? I have played every class in this game to cap. Several times. PPU was my first love, back when there were only a handful on PPUs on the server (Carinth being one of the others). Dont EVEN try to lump me in with whatever you think is the cliche PPU crowd. I just want KK to do WHATEVER needs to be done to the PPU so its once again fun to play. Frankly, being a PPU was much more fun back before they became uber.
Oh they do believe me, people hate APUs almost as much as PPUs. It's just that bringing an APU into an OP war doesn't force the other team to bring another. Also the APU without the PPU is pretty much balanced.RIght, a lone APU is just fine. A lone PPU is pointless. Eh?
So if you can be bothered to state it explicitly for PPUs instead of saying "see what I said about APUs", what changes to the PPU do you think would make them playable AND no longer be mandatory at an op war?
Seriously- the second PPUs are no longer mandatory for combat is the second that PPUs, in theory, really serve no purpose.
Tanks, Spies, APU monks, PEs... all can attack, level, participate in the game as it was meant to be played. On their own, in a team. Every one of those classes can even solo the chaos caves.
PPUs cannot function in the game UNLESS they are helping other runners survive.
So you want to make it so that the runner whose ONLY way to exist is to help out... have their help no longer really needed?
Thats why I say its the approach of the PPU itself... the role... that throws people off.
The PPU however... well I tried to explain you why people complain about PPUs, you don't seem like listening.What ON EARTH makes you think I dont know why people complain about PPUs???? Is it because I am not reciting the same tired lines that so many others are using or what?
I think that problems are more related to balance, not perception.So lets talk about balancing.
The game is pure PvP. You must attack others. The PPU, by role definition, cannot attack others. It must 100% rely on others for experience and for purpose. Others cannot do ANYTHING to keep the PPU alive.
So lets talk balance.
If the answer (not that you would suggest this) is a mixture of offense and defense... then its no longer a PPU, its a hybrid, in which case I am no longer interested as its no longer pure support. And, in that case, my point stands that perhaps a PvP game simply cannot handle a pure support char.
I'd discuss deeply with you Strych, but I don't feel like being totally flamed by a PPU just because he is making assumptions of why I believe ppus are broken. Flamed by a PPU. LOL. I flamed you? Im a PPU? Have I even ever suggested that PPUs are perfectly fine???
Seriously, are you just looking for a way to bail out of this discussion? I never flamed you once. Drop the "you are a PPU" bullshit and continue discussing if you feel like it.
steweygrrr
15-03-04, 21:13
Here you go....can you pull the spell in a safe zone?
No.
Do Copbots/STORMs attack anyone with an agressive weapon drawn?
Yes.
Its agressive then.
Does it allow a PPU to kill an enemy directly?
No. (unless its some really unfortunate sod with 7hp :P)
Does it allow a PPU to escape from a dangerous situation?
Yes.
Its passive then.
But thats oversimplification. Like someone said before para is a grey area because you cant clearly define its precise use. Until you can you cant classify it.
Originally posted by Strych9
WHat on earth?
1. I respond about PPUs. I am going through scenarios. I say "If you suggest..." which is just a rhetorical phrase meaning "if you were to suggest" or "if one were to advocate the following alternative...". I wasnt saying you actually said anything.
2. You freak out telling me not to assume you made a suggestion.
RIght, a lone APU is just fine. A lone PPU is pointless. Eh?
THIS kind of suggestions are what I mean. I say a lone APU is more or less balanced, that's why people doesn't moan about them half as PPUs. You assume the rest.
You finally advocated for assuming that the community is wrong, we percibe things wrong... and PPUs are just pointless?.
Just drop this already. I read what you said about the APU. I am not sure why you got so weirded out about me responding to possible alternatives to my advocacy, but I will be sure not to do it again in a thread with you.
Possible alternatives?
Ok, saying that you have yet to see any alternative that doesn't include making PPU un-worthwhile, is now advocating for possible alternatives.
So if you can be bothered to state it explicitly for PPUs instead of saying "see what I said about APUs", what changes to the PPU do you think would make them playable AND no longer be mandatory at an op war?
I was using previously the same situation as PPUs have now, but using APUs as a example, in fact I consider it a very good analogy. The only way I see the PPU balanced is by dropping the extremes... yet everytime it is suggested, the magic word useless appears.
Do you honestly think that we can keep providing an endless supply of ideas until all the PPUs are happy. To Hell with it dude, I'm tired to do that and being consistently flammed and accussed of wanting the class nerfed to hell (not by you tho)... I will just accept whatever the majority decides. And guess what, it is always nerfs.
Seriously- the second PPUs are no longer mandatory for combat is the second that PPUs, in theory, really serve no purpose.
See what I said about useless?
That is completely denying any other alternative. So if the class is not mandatory for combat, it serves no purpose, read as useless.
This is what I mean by saying "you just turned to be another PPU", it's not an insult of any sort, but sometimes you seem in denial about this subject. It is fine for you like that, well not for me, not for many. I REALLY tried to give alternative ways to enhance the PPU support role while relieving the class of some importance. Your words: It serves no purpose.
Tanks, Spies, APU monks, PEs... all can attack, level, participate in the game as it was meant to be played. On their own, in a team. Every one of those classes can even solo the chaos caves.
PPUs cannot function in the game UNLESS they are helping other runners survive.
Tanks, Spies and PEs are not creating problems, they are somewhat balanced offence-defense wise. They do not create imbalances with other classes.
APUs alone perhaps don't, PPUs alone certainly don't... the second teamed with ANY class creates complains and imbalances. The APU teamed with the PPU... you name it dude. Perhaps it's again a problem of our perception.
So you want to make it so that the runner whose ONLY way to exist is to help out... have their help no longer really needed?
Would you read what I said about APUs... would you know that I don't want this. QUITE far from it. Improving the supporting role is exactly the oppossite of your 'assumption' in the above quote.
Thats why I say its the approach of the PPU itself... the role... that throws people off.
The role can be balanced. ANY role can be balanced.
What ON EARTH makes you think I dont know why people complain about PPUs???? Is it because I am not reciting the same tired lines that so many others are using or what
Actually you seem to believe that people complain about PPUs due their role itself. I disagree with that, well not completely, but I believe that its role can be balanced. There are the other features what seem unbalanced combined with that role. It's a decision, you want to be in a middle term or in the extreme. PPUs are holding TWO extremes, the most important support role and the best defence in the game by far... the other extreme point is not having offence at all, well it has offence, but very little.
No wonder why people complain. That class is unbalanced by default.
So lets talk about balancing.
The game is pure PvP. You must attack others. The PPU, by role definition, cannot attack others. It must 100% rely on others for experience and for purpose. Others cannot do ANYTHING to keep the PPU alive.
And THAT is the first unbalance. The game is pure combat, not all PvP but completely combat oriented. A class that must rely 100% on others might work in a pure RPG game, an FPS game simply doesn't have the resources to leave a class 100% dependant on others, either in offence and defence.
If the answer (not that you would suggest this) is a mixture of offense and defense... then its no longer a PPU, its a hybrid, in which case I am no longer interested as its no longer pure support. And, in that case, my point stands that perhaps a PvP game simply cannot handle a pure support char.
The support role still would be there, at 100% capability if not more. But the complete reliance of the PPU on others is simply not viable. EVERY class needs some kind of solo survavility, offence... at the very least in PvM. Stop the 'hybrid' crap, it is a term which debts its existance to the PURE. If APUs and PPUs are made to provide different support roles, they will still be pure in their own class. Of course both would have some kind of offence and defence... seriously, what do you expect.
Flamed by a PPU. LOL. I flamed you? Im a PPU? Have I even ever suggested that PPUs are perfectly fine???
To be honest that's what I thought. If the community's perception of the PPU role is the problem, it means that PPUs are fine, and that we are the problem.
Certainly it's not a flame, but you are not contributing much to think otherwise.
Seriously, are you just looking for a way to bail out of this discussion? I never flamed you once. Drop the "you are a PPU" bullshit and continue discussing if you feel like it.
Bail from the discussion???
Pfft... the only discussion of which I expect something is about agressive/passive effects of parashocks. Do you really think I'm dissapointed about PPUs not wanting to change even an inch?
Dude, more than assumed. I actually made some funny remaks of APU balanced as analogy, and to discuss MY point of view. In no way I expect to change PPUs that believe they are fine. I accepted it... PPUs won't be balanced until they or KK wants. What I could say doesn't matter, my ideas are disregarded the second they are out anyway.
You want to talk about balance. Let's talk about balance, let's start both then.
I stated my reasons of why a pure support class can't be balanced, I'd venture to say in ANY game, but let's say in this COMBAT oriented game.
You think it can be, state why.
Shadow Dancer
16-03-04, 00:50
Originally posted by Carinth
I seriously doubt you want to say shelter is an agrressive spell, but you can't differentiate it from dmg boost.
IIRC sleawer and me both used the same logic for explaining passive and aggressive. Basically the module's effect on the target, regardless of the intended purpose or what the target does.
So no shelter is not the same as dmg boost.
Scikar i'm against summoning. :p Look at the wonderful job KK did with soul clusters. :D
did anyone even read my post ?? ( on page 4 )
Geesh
Passive and agressive are the names kk gave the monks because it sounded cool. Not because they by the naming wanted to establish firm frames for the usage of them. They where meant as the inclination of the monks.
so deal with it being under your definition of agressive and respect that anything in the world ( more or less ) can be used according to your wishes. Like spoons and bikes and so on.
This is why i think this discussion is bordering on the Ridiculous.
Also this has very readily shown it self as another " get the ppus thread".
parashock is a spell just like so many other spells in the ppu inventory it can be used agressively but not directly. and thats the difference.
Now listen CLOSELY
Shelter can be used offensively, as can heal and buffs and deflector, and whatnot ALL off them have offensive capabilities but you still name them as passive why ???
I could answer it but id probably be making not so nice comments along the way so ill wait for someone to ask me.
Also the damn ghandi image: that man was a pascifist and even he employed ways of obtaining his goals that resembles para and db.
He blocked a train track with his body i believe.
and he also directed negative attention to the british.
Again i feel compelled to reiterate how stupid this thread appears.
Para seems to be better and not spammable with the recent increases in cast time and mana usage. Actually i dont have it in my qb anymore. too much trouble for me, personally i feel im making a bigger impact by doing healing and sding for my team.
db is still fun because it actually enables me to feel some effect of my actions on the enemy.
What i really dont get is why theres such a big fuzz over ppus. they cant really kill you 1 on 1 ( yea they can but takes for ever and almost anyone with sense can escape.) reminds me of a fight i had once near the crahn village with ppu on my apu whe were going for fucking ever. Me medipacking and outhealing his SC and him outbuffing me and so on. in the end we both left.
Point is apparently the problem people sees with ppus is that theyre needed for combat. Well frankly yes they are. Why ?? because they help your team greatly.
But what i dont get is where the problem is ??. probably beacause people just attack or something. Let me tell you, i wouldnt want to op fight without some of the EXTREME spies we have. Neither would i do without apus or tanks. Pes are VERY usefull as well though maybe the least used, though i find they can take on the Role of: Hacker, Sniper, Attacker, Buffer, PPu harasser, and spy. So i guess theyre multitude of roles compensate for their lack of excellene in one.
So whats the problem ??
PPU = support
APU = artillery
Tank = frontline force
Spy = Snipers / spys
PE = Skirmisher/joat.
I find the team is weakened with the absence of any one of these.
So why is there these incessant nerf cries. I find it isnt hard to bring down the last ppus of the enemy team and if theyre the "u cant kill me n00b" and run around using the clipping problems, type we generally go "err and your team is dead good job Bob".
Originally posted by Sleawer
You finally advocated for assuming that the community is wrong, we percibe things wrong... and PPUs are just pointless?Gee, what happened to the word "lone" I had in front of the word "PPU"????
Yes a LONE PPU is pointless.
Please consider quoting what I say- I never said a PPU is pointless, only a lone PPU is.
I was using previously the same situation as PPUs have now, but using APUs as a example, in fact I consider it a very good analogy. The only way I see the PPU balanced is by dropping the extremes... yet everytime it is suggested, the magic word useless appears.Dropping extremes = a hybrid... its no longer a PPU. Unless you mean dropping extremes just within the PPU class itself (i.e. keeping the total lack of offense and the pure support role)... in which case yes, I have yet to see anyone offer a suggestion that would BOTH keep the PPU fun and viable AND make them balanced in combat.
Do you honestly think that we can keep providing an endless supply of ideas until all the PPUs are happy. To Hell with it dude, I'm tired to do that and being consistently flammed and accussed of wanting the class nerfed to hell (not by you tho)... I will just accept whatever the majority decides. And guess what, it is always nerfs.Well maybe take a different approach? Leave PPUs alone and suggest changes to other classes to compensate? Not nerfs, but additions.
See what I said about useless?
That is completely denying any other alternative. So if the class is not mandatory for combat, it serves no purpose, read as useless.
This is what I mean by saying "you just turned to be another PPU", it's not an insult of any sort, but sometimes you seem in denial about this subject. It is fine for you like that, well not for me, not for many. I REALLY tried to give alternative ways to enhance the PPU support role while relieving the class of some importance. Your words: It serves no purpose.Where did you explicitly state what you had in mind for PPUs? I asked you to state it instead of telling me to look at your APU comments, but I dont see it here. ???
But the point is that if combat characters dont need the PPU... NEED it... then why have it at all???
The PPU NEEEEEEDS other characters. If they dont need him back, its pointless to be one. I mean, why bother? If you dont need him, all he does is leech exp and money when you are mobbing, and in combat... if you dont need him you dont need him.
If you take away the need for the PPU, then you need to take away the need of the PPU for the other runners. In which case, just call him a hybrid, give him offense and defense, and be done with it.
But its the NATURE of the PPU role that basically mandates he should be needed for combat.
Tanks, Spies and PEs are not creating problems, they are somewhat balanced offence-defense wise. They do not create imbalances with other classes.
APUs alone perhaps don't, PPUs alone certainly don't... the second teamed with ANY class creates complains and imbalances. The APU teamed with the PPU... you name it dude. Perhaps it's again a problem of our perception.Well I have been advocating perception issues from day 1. :)
Every runner without a PPU is fine. Every runner with a PPU is much more powerful. The PPU cannot exist by itself.
Thats how it is designed to work. PPUs are part of the game. The PPU is almost a tool, rather than a character to itself right now.
If you take away the need for team exp and the lack of offense, then you can start balancing the PPU as an individual class.
Its tough to balance a class in a PvP game that lacks the ability to kill. Thats the kicker here, and why we need to change the way we view a PPU.
Would you read what I said about APUs... would you know that I don't want this. QUITE far from it. Improving the supporting role is exactly the oppossite of your 'assumption' in the above quote.Let me ask again... specifically what do you advocate being done to change the PPU?
The role can be balanced. ANY role can be balanced.Sure, but the PPU role cannot be balanced the same way as the others can. Thats where people get off course.
With every other class you have balance based on Offense/Defense/Tradeskills/RP. The PPU is the only variant that lacks one of those four items- offense. Therefore you cannot balance it the same way or under the same paradigm as the other classes. And thats what people try to do.
But yes, I am sure it can be balanced. No reason it cant be.
Actually you seem to believe that people complain about PPUs due their role itself. I disagree with that, well not completely, but I believe that its role can be balanced. There are the other features what seem unbalanced combined with that role. It's a decision, you want to be in a middle term or in the extreme. PPUs are holding TWO extremes, the most important support role and the best defence in the game by far... the other extreme point is not having offence at all, well it has offence, but very little.People dont complain about the role, but I think the role and their mindset is why they complain to begin with, regardless of the individual complaints.
Its a PvP game, yet the PPU cannot engage in PvP... it can only help those that do so. People try and equate the PPU to other classes as a peer, rather than as a supporter.
And those two extremes are what define the PPU as a class- the utter lack of offense and the complete presence of defense. That is what a PPU *is*. Of course you can give them offense and drop their defense, but then at least stop calling them a PPU, and instead call them a PPU slanted hybrid or something. But a pure PPU is one that lacks any points in APU, and that is what we are trying to deal with I believe.
And THAT is the first unbalance. The game is pure combat, not all PvP but completely combat oriented. A class that must rely 100% on others might work in a pure RPG game, an FPS game simply doesn't have the resources to leave a class 100% dependant on others, either in offence and defence.Yep, that was my very first advocacy on this subject. Its the role, not the strength of parashock or the s/d casting that makes it difficult.
The support role still would be there, at 100% capability if not more. But the complete reliance of the PPU on others is simply not viable. EVERY class needs some kind of solo survavility, offence... at the very least in PvM. Stop the 'hybrid' crap, it is a term which debts its existance to the PURE. If APUs and PPUs are made to provide different support roles, they will still be pure in their own class. Of course both would have some kind of offence and defence... seriously, what do you expect.First I would like to here what you think should be done.
Second, you are again saying what I have advocated the whole time. Its nature of the PPU itself that is the problem here.
If you want to change the 100% reliance on others (dont know what you want to do since you havent said yet, so I wont assume) then that may solve it, but like I said above, I dont know to what extent you could call that a "PPU."
But if both APUs and PPUs, by what you say above, have offense and defense... then arent we just talking about hybrids with a particular slant?
Are you advocating (I am asking) the removal then of pure monk classes?
I stated my reasons of why a pure support class can't be balanced, I'd venture to say in ANY game, but let's say in this COMBAT oriented game.
You think it can be, state why. Uh, I said to begin with that the nature of the PPU is the problem... and therefore to fix the problem we either change the nature of the PPU or we change our perceptions. Not sure what I need to say in response to what you say here above.
I think if people start viewing the PPU as a pure support class instead of as a combat char to be balanced with tanks and PEs, we will be able to handle balance issues much easier.
Does the PPU need some adjustments? I am down with that.
Here is the deal.
1. People see the role that the PPU plays in combat, and they dont like it. The PPU effects the outcomes of battles, and rather than directly contributing it just makes the enemy harder to kill. To top it off, the PPU itself is hard to kill. Since they cant always have a PPU online, and since they always want a "fair" fight, they want the impact of PPUs lessened.
2. People then suggest ways to nerf the effectiveness of PPUs. These nerfs WOULD have immediate effects on the DEGREE of the impact PPUs make.
Now, I feel that people should
1. Realize that no matter what the degree, PPUs, as long as they are in the game as they are now, will always be important in battle. They are coded that way. It no accident that people want PPUs to help them in combat. Its not the fault of the player of the PPU.
2. Realize the degree of "we MUST have them" is relative, and there is no clear criteria for when their role will be reduced "enough" to make people happy. Say you make S/D self cast only, and the PPU can only Holy Heal and boost and damageboost and whatnot. The role is reduced, but would that be enough? What about if you also reduced the heals to blessed instead. Again, the role is reduced, but how would we know if that is "enough" of a reduction to make the game "balanced"??? We wont know. And I personally think that as long as there is a PURE support class in the game, SOMEONE will be upset when the other team had one present and they did not.
3. View the PPU as a valuable combat tool, and try to get one themselves. Constructors- players dont whine when some clans/groups have constructors in the clan to do their builds, while those without have to pay strangers to build. Players dont whine about how Clan A has a barterer and its not fair that Clan B doesnt and must pay more for parts. The PPU is the same way, and also has a very specific role- its just a role that is more vital to the game as it deals directly with combat itself. View the PPU as a tool, and try to get one for yourself.
4. Advocate changes to bring people up to par with the PPU, or advocate changes to change the PPU without lessening their role in combat. I am all for removal or changing Parashock for example- and I have made several suggestions that have been well received for making parashock stay in game but not ruin PvP like it does. Removing/altering parashock would have a huge effect on the game but a MINOR effect on the game. Other changes would be to strengthen others rather than nerfing the PPU.
So sure the PPU can be balanced. Some changes to the PPU class itself can be made- but if people were to embrace the role and the presence of the PPU, that would fix a lot of the problems people have.
The BIGGEST gripe I hear is that "But we MUST have a PPU if the other team does..." and I think that is what people want to fix. On a theoretical level, if you nerf PPU monks such that if the other team has one, it really doesnt matter- then just get rid of the class altogether. You SHOULD need a pure support class in combat, esp when the class is dedicated to keeping you alive.
So get some PPU monks and recognize they are vital combat, or lets dump them altogether. No PPU want to sit back and keep having more crap piled on them to make their life difficult (ask Carinth about that part of it).
I hope that clarifies my stance on this.
Originally posted by Strych9
Gee, what happened to the word "lone" I had in front of the word "PPU"????
Yes a LONE PPU is pointless.
Please consider quoting what I say- I never said a PPU is pointless, only a lone PPU is.
Ok a lone PPU is pointless, hence it is not balanced 'alone'.
A PPU in teams however also creates unbalance... so the PPU seems completely unbalanced at the current situation.
Dropping extremes = a hybrid... its no longer a PPU. Unless you mean dropping extremes just within the PPU class itself (i.e. keeping the total lack of offense and the pure support role)... in which case yes, I have yet to see anyone offer a suggestion that would BOTH keep the PPU fun and viable AND make them balanced in combat.
Wrong. Extremes do not mean the pure status. Pure is being upright in your class resources. PPUs and APUs are pures, mix both styles and they are hybrid.
PPUs have some kind of offence, yet they are pure.
APUs have some kind of defence, and still are pure.
They get their polar opposites means of offence/defence inside their own class and their own abilities. If the PPU extreme is tweaked by only specing points into PPU he will remain pure, but he will be balanced.
There are no hybrids in this game, aside those monks that spec for both APU and PPU. With the current specialization required to play, a pure combat char simply cannot be a hybrid.
Well maybe take a different approach? Leave PPUs alone and suggest changes to other classes to compensate? Not nerfs, but additions.
You are late. already have suggested that.
How many times have I said make implant a medic skill, allow spies to be tech supporters with field generators and heals, so we can have more variety, more classes in the game that share the most important role.
But always the same word... PPUs will be useless... arises.
Where did you explicitly state what you had in mind for PPUs? I asked you to state it instead of telling me to look at your APU comments, but I dont see it here. ???
In the loads of threads that start with NERF the PPUs. In all of them I always tried to suggest other changes. Something that did not nerf the PPU role... I was against S/D self-cast... was.
- Add new roles to other classes to make them important.
- Reduce the exclusivity of PPUs in the healing/buffer role.
- Divert the role of PPUs into both classes, APUs and PPUs.
- Change the form that shields and heals work, so it is not overpowered but still necessary.
- Add Team Utility into the ecuation to balance the classes, by adding special features that fit this new component.
And many more ideas... you are reluctant to say the same single argument that people use to nerf PPUs, but we have to provide over and over the same or new solutions. For what? so that anyone comes and says that he has yet to see any solution that keep both fun and viability.
And you wonder why I get pissed... Ok.
But the point is that if combat characters dont need the PPU... NEED it... then why have it at all???
The PPU NEEEEEEDS other characters. If they dont need him back, its pointless to be one. I mean, why bother? If you dont need him, all he does is leech exp and money when you are mobbing, and in combat... if you dont need him you dont need him.
If you take away the need for the PPU, then you need to take away the need of the PPU for the other runners. In which case, just call him a hybrid, give him offense and defense, and be done with it.
But its the NATURE of the PPU role that basically mandates he should be needed for combat.
Again this is wrong. ONE class ESSENTIAL for combat is not compatible in this game. You can make ALL classes mandatory for combat, with a pre-determined role each one, and everyone equal necessary. Then it would work.
Only one class won't work. People will complain.
Hybrid is not having both offence and defence either, perhaps strictly, in which case you could call every class, included the PPU, hybrid.
Every class in THIS game needs offence and defence. Otherwise won't work. Keep the PPU with his own PPU modules for offence and defence, and then it will remain pure in its class.
Well I have been advocating perception issues from day 1. :)
Every runner without a PPU is fine. Every runner with a PPU is much more powerful. The PPU cannot exist by itself.
Thats how it is designed to work. PPUs are part of the game. The PPU is almost a tool, rather than a character to itself right now.
If you take away the need for team exp and the lack of offense, then you can start balancing the PPU as an individual class.
Its tough to balance a class in a PvP game that lacks the ability to kill. Thats the kicker here, and why we need to change the way we view a PPU.
Hence it comes to be unbalanced.
The APU has extreme offence, but he does not depend on the PPU or other classes for everything. The APU alone can be neutralized with relative ease, couple him with a PPU and this balance dissapears.
THERE is the problem with the PPU. It cannot be neutralized by normal means, thus KK start to provide other classes with debuffs specially designed to kill the PPU. On top of that, PPUs share that special defence with others, being it his role, what creates even more unbalance.
This is the true reason, it is not a problem of perception, it is a problem of balance. Perception is YOUR point of view.
Why you have to change the way we see PPUs?
Because it is either change PPUs or change everything else.
Let me ask again... specifically what do you advocate being done to change the PPU?
Do I really need to answer this question again?
Perhaps if my opinion had any mean, it would be worth. I and many others already have provided our ways to balance PPUs, some of them mentioned in this same post.
That is what pisses me, you can repeat it over and over but still many people will disagree, I cannot change that, I just accept it. I know that nerf threads will remain, each day one, what can you do about it? You can keep explaining your reasons, and a mofo like the guy above your post will come with the same argument again, probably because he did not bother to read all, or simply did not care of what others wrote, even having read it.
Should I bother to answer to that?
I don't think so. I keep answering you because you 'seem' a reasonable person, well you are, but still sometimes I get pissed for cumulative reasons. I don't blame you, but as you are the person with which I discuss it...
Sure, but the PPU role cannot be balanced the same way as the others can. Thats where people get off course.
With every other class you have balance based on Offense/Defense/Tradeskills/RP. The PPU is the only variant that lacks one of those four items- offense. Therefore you cannot balance it the same way or under the same paradigm as the other classes. And thats what people try to do.
But yes, I am sure it can be balanced. No reason it cant be.
As I have said, and I'm glad that you agree, the PPU role can be balanced. ANY role can be.
I suggested to add a new term into balance equations, Team Utility. Based on the offence and deffence that each class posses, the Team Utility would be greater or lesser. I would quote a link, this was discussed with QD in the S/D self-cast thread. Anyway this is the equation more or less.
SOLO
APU: 80% offence - 20% defence
Tank: 60% offence - 40% defence
Spy: 55% offence - 45% deffence
PE: 50% offence - 50% defence
PPU: 10% offence - 90% defence
TEAM with PPU
APU: 90% offence - 70% defence - 40% Team Utility
Tank: 70% offence - 80% defence - 50% Team Utility
Spy: 65% offence - 65% defence - 70% Team Utility
PE: 60% offence - 60% defence - 80% Team Utility
PPU: 10% offence - 90% defence
TEAM between classes
Add the percents of the classes that you want to team, and you will ALWAYS have balance. Weaker offence/defence classes teamed between them will have greater TU, stronger classes will compliment themselves with lesser TU but greater offence/defence.
I.E.
Tank + APU: 140% offence - 60% defence - 100% TU
Tank + Spy: 115% offence - 85% defence - 100% TU
Tank + PE: 110% offence - 90% defence - 100% TU
Tank + Tank: 120% offence - 80% defence - 100% TU
What is Team Utility (TU). It is a compendium of new specific roles for each class. Roles that can be complemented perfectly with any other class up to a certain degree, not only PPU + [insert class], and provide an specific utility to the class in any situation.
Solo classes are balanced.
Classes Teamed remain balanced tweaking their TU depending on which class they team up with.
What happens with this: two things.
1) That PPUs gain nothing by teaming between themselves, as they are PURE PASSIVE supporters.
2) Their Team Role is based in their special ability to boost the offence and defence of the classes, so the Team Utility teamed with PPUs is reduced in the different classes, attending to the boost in offence/defence that PPUs provide to them.
The percents don't mean anything in fact, you can tweak them as you like, but the idea of balance has to remain. More offence, less defence, and balanced TU.
This is EXTREMELY hard to add in an FPS game. It means that all classes have an specific role, and their capability to fullfill that role in a team is directly proportional to the defence/offence of the classes combined in it.
Teams with all classes are then encouraged, but to configure a Team Role for each specific class, in a game with an FPS interface is an EPIC ENDEAVOUR. There, with caps... I have't seen such thing before.
That's why I am reluctant to pure support classes.
People dont complain about the role, but I think the role and their mindset is why they complain to begin with, regardless of the individual complaints.
Its a PvP game, yet the PPU cannot engage in PvP... it can only help those that do so. People try and equate the PPU to other classes as a peer, rather than as a supporter.
Not sure what do you mean with this.
I meant that people do not complain *only* due that role. The reason is the unbalance that creates having two extremes into one class. It has no justification, even if it can seem reasonable for you, it isn't at all.
Look at my example with the APU, it is an excelent analogy. If APUs suddenly had the debuffer role... reduce resists, parashocks, damage boost, drain life, etc... would you allow them to keep their EXTREME offence? even having the same defence as they have now?
I'm sure you would not, I'm sure I would not either. No one would allow such thing. Too much importance. By holding those two roles, APUs would become insane, extremely powerful.
There would be two differences, one is that APUs would boost their offensive capabilties even further with the new boost. The other is that APUs would still be killable by normal means, while PPUs would not. It IS the same situation. One would take advantage of the new situation, the APU, the PPU doesn't.... but the imbalance created is the same.
And those two extremes are what define the PPU as a class- the utter lack of offense and the complete presence of defense. That is what a PPU *is*. Of course you can give them offense and drop their defense, but then at least stop calling them a PPU, and instead call them a PPU slanted hybrid or something. But a pure PPU is one that lacks any points in APU, and that is what we are trying to deal with I believe.
Not at all. We make the PPU what we want him to be. Those roles are WHY the ppu is unbalanced, but as I stated, not due them alone... it is their combination. One must be weakened.
You could still call them PPUs, you don't need points in APU to balance PPUs. PPUs *already* have agressive elements, and they do not have APU points.
Merge APU and PPU into ONE class, drop the hybridness. Re-work the PSI modules and PSI system completely, make it one class....
or
Sepparate both classes for good and forever. Balance them with offence and deffence in their own APU/PPU fields...
or
Take a look at what I said of Team Utility. The hardest way, if possible at all.
Yep, that was my very first advocacy on this subject. Its the role, not the strength of parashock or the s/d casting that makes it difficult.
It's the way to handle that role. The form in which it has been introduced in the game. Not the role itself.
First I would like to here what you think should be done.
Second, you are again saying what I have advocated the whole time. Its nature of the PPU itself that is the problem here.
If you want to change the 100% reliance on others (dont know what you want to do since you havent said yet, so I wont assume) then that may solve it, but like I said above, I dont know to what extent you could call that a "PPU."
But if both APUs and PPUs, by what you say above, have offense and defense... then arent we just talking about hybrids with a particular slant?
To the first, I already have said it.
To the second, it's the nature of the PPU, but not its role. It's the part of the PPU that handles both extreme roles at same time.
What I want doesn't matter. My personal way of balancing the class are just suggestions, at the end of the day whinners and nerfers win. I want balance.
Hybrids.... I already answered that question. No I don't mean hybrids, I mean APUs and PPUs, or I mean MONKs.
Are you advocating (I am asking) the removal then of pure monk classes?
If by pure you mean extremes, yes I do.
I suggested a way to keep the extremes, but it is so hard to implement that I see it as impossible.
If however, by pure you mean having a role inside your APU or PPU field, sepparared completely each of the other, then I don't. I want to keep monks pures. Do it by having just Monks, or by having just APUs and PPUs, but balanced.
I will reply to the last part of your post in a while.
/edit: tweaked TU percents and explanations. It is tricky to explain, if you don't get it... ask, I will try to explain it further.
Originally posted by Strych9
Uh, I said to begin with that the nature of the PPU is the problem... and therefore to fix the problem we either change the nature of the PPU or we change our perceptions. Not sure what I need to say in response to what you say here above.
Again that is only your point of view, and while it is valid, alone means nothing. Everyone's opinion matters, hence ALL must be taken into account.
PPUs overshadow the role of other classes. PEs PSI abilities are not used in presence of PPUs, as it is insanely higher, and the extra defence of PEs doesn't matter either, the PPUs have and provide better defence.
Every other class role is completely neutralized when the PPU comes into scene...
- Tanks front line fighter role is dismissed, as APUs with shields and heals perform it better.
- Spies long range role is dismissed, as the defences provided by PPUs to other classes completely negate their range advantage. On top of this PPUs and not Spies have True Sight, even if it is useless.
- PEs compendium of roles is also negated. Their PSI abilties over-shadowed by PPUs, their extra defence aswell, and PEs also are the ones most suffering from this, as teamed with PPUs get no where the advantages that other classes do, specially APUs.
PPUs need to give away one of their extremes, or other classes are simply not needed. They are relegated to being raw damage, and here APU wins.
I think if people start viewing the PPU as a pure support class instead of as a combat char to be balanced with tanks and PEs, we will be able to handle balance issues much easier.
We are aware of PPUs as a support class, but its role is bad handled. His impact in combat is excesive to be ignored, or justified as pure support. It cannot attack I know, but it doesn't justify its over-importance. It doesn't, believe me, NO.
That is not balanced.
You can justify having that insane defence by having no offence. But you cannot justify having the exclusivity of the most important role in the game by saying that PPUs need other classes...
There are 3 other classes, with 12 different subclasses, and the APU subclass... all of them depending on the unique subclass PPU. No way to justify this.
Does the PPU need some adjustments? I am down with that.
Here is the deal.
1. People see the role that the PPU plays in combat, and they dont like it. The PPU effects the outcomes of battles, and rather than directly contributing it just makes the enemy harder to kill. To top it off, the PPU itself is hard to kill. Since they cant always have a PPU online, and since they always want a "fair" fight, they want the impact of PPUs lessened.
People see the role of PPUs negating their own roles, turning the game into point and click, and making of it a place called Monk-o-cron. You surely recognize these words. It is not a problem with the role ALONE.
Its the impact of the role in themselves, in others, and in the game overall. The role can stay, the OVER importance has to go.
2. People then suggest ways to nerf the effectiveness of PPUs. These nerfs WOULD have immediate effects on the DEGREE of the impact PPUs make.
Yes I agree. It is the easiest and fastest way, so people take it. I don't blame them really.
Now, I feel that people should
1. Realize that no matter what the degree, PPUs, as long as they are in the game as they are now, will always be important in battle. They are coded that way. It no accident that people want PPUs to help them in combat. Its not the fault of the player of the PPU.
People already realize of this problem. The role of PPUs is unique, not shared with any class, and its impact is reducing every class role or completely negating it.
We are aware of this, but we don't like it.
2. Realize the degree of "we MUST have them" is relative, and there is no clear criteria for when their role will be reduced "enough" to make people happy. Say you make S/D self cast only, and the PPU can only Holy Heal and boost and damageboost and whatnot. The role is reduced, but would that be enough? What about if you also reduced the heals to blessed instead. Again, the role is reduced, but how would we know if that is "enough" of a reduction to make the game "balanced"??? We wont know. And I personally think that as long as there is a PURE support class in the game, SOMEONE will be upset when the other team had one present and they did not.
I agree, nerfing the role itself won't solve anything... not unless its impact is terribly nerfed to the point that no one uses it anymore. It will never be enought.
However its importance, the "MUST have them", is not relative. Not beyond the relativeness of all things in the universe lol. We can see it, it is tangible. ANY situation that evolves advanced combat has as a consequence the NEED of a PPU. It is because the enemy will have a PPU.
The game itself has been tweaked due the strong impact of PPUs, that should say anything to you. That speaks by itself in fact.
You believe that PPUs importance cannot be relieved without nerfing its role, that's why you think it is a problem of perception. I believe it can be done throught balance, without even touching its role. You nerf the necessity, the essentiality, but not the importance or the direct effect. You can nerf the side effects.
Stop thinking in PPUs as the only possible support class.
3. View the PPU as a valuable combat tool, and try to get one themselves. Constructors- players dont whine when some clans/groups have constructors in the clan to do their builds, while those without have to pay strangers to build. Players dont whine about how Clan A has a barterer and its not fair that Clan B doesnt and must pay more for parts. The PPU is the same way, and also has a very specific role- its just a role that is more vital to the game as it deals directly with combat itself. View the PPU as a tool, and try to get one for yourself.
Now that is relative.
The direct effect is the same, however by creating weapons a constructor do not negate the role of other classes. By building a weapon you do not negate others to have one. That is the difference.
Don't your example gives you any hints?
The Tradeskill Role is probably the most important in the game, yet people do not complain about it. It is not creating any unbalance. The PPU role is LESS important, it is... but people complain.
That does enforce my argument that the problem is not the role, but the way to handle it.
4. Advocate changes to bring people up to par with the PPU, or advocate changes to change the PPU without lessening their role in combat. I am all for removal or changing Parashock for example- and I have made several suggestions that have been well received for making parashock stay in game but not ruin PvP like it does. Removing/altering parashock would have a huge effect on the game but a MINOR effect on the game. Other changes would be to strengthen others rather than nerfing the PPU.
It depends on what do you mean by bringing other classes on par with the PPU.
I want other classes to have important roles in the game, but ones should not completely negate the others. This creates distress, frustration and hate.
So sure the PPU can be balanced. Some changes to the PPU class itself can be made- but if people were to embrace the role and the presence of the PPU, that would fix a lot of the problems people have.
*Sigh*
People already embrace the PPU role as necessary and important. We don't have any other option. It is the reason for we don't like it, we want to have another option.
The BIGGEST gripe I hear is that "But we MUST have a PPU if the other team does..." and I think that is what people want to fix. On a theoretical level, if you nerf PPU monks such that if the other team has one, it really doesnt matter- then just get rid of the class altogether. You SHOULD need a pure support class in combat, esp when the class is dedicated to keeping you alive.
Of course people have that gripe. And indeed they have chosen the easiest path, the nerf. The problem is not that we must have a support class, it is that we need one specific subclass, and that his support role negates the others, turns the game into something that should not be.
So get some PPU monks and recognize they are vital combat, or lets dump them altogether. No PPU want to sit back and keep having more crap piled on them to make their life difficult (ask Carinth about that part of it).
Precisely Carinth admits that having both extremes is bad. He admits the unbalanced that it creates... well I would not like to speak for him, I just read on of his recent posts. Making the class stressful and annoying is of what we are against.
'Get more PPUs' is not the solution, it is acepting the unbalance created by one class and doing nothing about it. I could not agree with that statement unless all classes had the same threatement.
I hope that clarifies my stance on this..
Of course it does. With these steps you have not provided any solution, just have said that we are the problem, that we have to accept it and change our views. Correct me if I am wrong.
Sure the gamming would be fine, but still would be unbalanced.
This does not provide anything usefull to the discussion Strych. If many people complain it is because there is a problem... of course the people is creating problem, but it exists and it is real.
First let me say that this is really two different issues here.
First issue is can a pure support role exist in a MMORPG that is PvP based? That one I assume you say 'no' since you moved on to the second questions, which is "If not, what would you change about the PPU to make it work?"
Now I think a pure support role CAN exist, but I will get into that later. For now, let me say that I can have a PPU that is 90% defense and 10% offense right now, called a hybrid, and if I wanted a hybrid I would play one. Easily spec for say Holy Energy Bolt or something similar and still have good defense. But I dont- so while your solution is a solution, its not an answer for people wanting the pure support role.
Okay, on to your suggestion...
Originally posted by Sleawer
As I have said, and I'm glad that you agree, the PPU role can be balanced. ANY role can be.
I suggested to add a new term into balance equations, Team Utility. Based on the offence and deffence that each class posses, the Team Utility would be greater or lesser. I would quote a link, this was discussed with QD in the S/D self-cast thread. Anyway this is the equation more or less.
SOLO
APU: 80% offence - 20% defence
Tank: 60% offence - 40% defence
Spy: 55% offence - 45% deffence
PE: 50% offence - 50% defence
PPU: 10% offence - 90% defence
TEAM with PPU
APU: 90% offence - 70% defence - 40% Team Utility
Tank: 70% offence - 80% defence - 50% Team Utility
Spy: 65% offence - 65% defence - 70% Team Utility
PE: 60% offence - 60% defence - 80% Team Utility
PPU: 10% offence - 90% defence
TEAM between classes
Add the percents of the classes that you want to team, and you will ALWAYS have balance. Weaker offence/defence classes teamed between them will have greater TU, stronger classes will compliment themselves with lesser TU but greater offence/defence.
I.E.
Tank + APU: 140% offence - 60% defence - 100% TU
Tank + Spy: 115% offence - 85% defence - 100% TU
Tank + PE: 110% offence - 90% defence - 100% TU
Tank + Tank: 120% offence - 80% defence - 100% TU
What is Team Utility (TU). It is a compendium of new specific roles for each class. Roles that can be complemented perfectly with any other class up to a certain degree, not only PPU + [insert class], and provide an specific utility to the class in any situation.
Solo classes are balanced.
Classes Teamed remain balanced tweaking their TU depending on which class they team up with.
What happens with this: two things.
1) That PPUs gain nothing by teaming between themselves, as they are PURE PASSIVE supporters.
2) Their Team Role is based in their special ability to boost the offence and defence of the classes, so the Team Utility teamed with PPUs is reduced in the different classes, attending to the boost in offence/defence that PPUs provide to them.
The percents don't mean anything in fact, you can tweak them as you like, but the idea of balance has to remain. More offence, less defence, and balanced TU.
This is EXTREMELY hard to add in an FPS game. It means that all classes have an specific role, and their capability to fullfill that role in a team is directly proportional to the defence/offence of the classes combined in it.
Teams with all classes are then encouraged, but to configure a Team Role for each specific class, in a game with an FPS interface is an EPIC ENDEAVOUR. There, with caps... I have't seen such thing before.
That's why I am reluctant to pure support classes.Few questions:
1. What about experience earning? Experience in Neocron comes from offense, not support. Is the PPU expected to level off their 10% offense, or are they expected to rely on teams still?
If they would be expected to still NEED teams to level, then there would need to be allocations for that.
2. This 'compendium of new roles'- any ideas of what that is? Would this just be more things for runners to worry about having to do in combat? Playing a PPU is already a pain in the ass as it is- 10 QB slots to manage spells and boosters and drugs is beyond tricky. I cant imagine having the current tasks AND any new ones added in. And I dont think PEs and Tanks and APUs want to have more things to worry about either.
3. Its hard to evaluate this idea without knowing what the compendium of new roles would be made up of. Can you explain how this solves the problems people have right now with the PPU? Namely being due to how their spells affect combat, if the other team has one you better have one too. How does your idea reduce the reliance of the PPU in combat?
4. How do you make team roles when teams can have as many as like 30 runners fighting for an op? I assume you mean informal team, rather than just a group of 10 runners in an in-game formal "team" setup. What if you have 4 PPUs, 7 tanks, 3 APUS, and 2 PEs... how would the percentages work? Is there a system for determining that?
Those are my questions. :)
Right now, the roles are like this:
Spies/Tanks/PEs/APU- attack. They attack in different ways and their own stengths are balanced with their own weaknesses. Each char is balanced for combat and within itself. I am not saying they couldnt use their own tweaks- but everyone can find a reason to be one of those four types of runners. All four can level on their own, they can be active in a group or team environment. THose classes have their own play styles, options as to how to play the runner.
PPUs are different in that they can ONLY operate with the presence of another runner.
If we TREAT them as different and VIEW them as different, instead of trying to balance them the same way as we balance the other runners, it can work while keeping them 100% defense and 0% offense, pure like they are now.
It would just take a mindset shift. It would take runners seeing the PPU as a tool to be used, rather than a presence to try and eliminate. Remove parashock or whatever, thats fine. But the idea that a runner/group of runners is made better by a pure support character is not some odd idea. Of course they are. Embrace that and just like you want to have an APU on your team, or a tank, or anyone else- strive to have a PPU on your team as well.
EDIT: For your second post.
Of course it does. With these steps you have not provided any solution, just have said that we are the problem, that we have to accept it and change our views. Correct me if I am wrong.
Sure the gamming would be fine, but still would be unbalanced.
This does not provide anything usefull to the discussion Strych. If many people complain it is because there is a problem... of course the people is creating problem, but it exists and it is real.A pure support class can exist, and if we assume we WANT that, or it is desireable in some way, then yes, the players are the problem and the solution lies in a changing of attitude.
Gaming would be unbalanced? No, not if people agreed that a PPU is an important asset to have in combat. I mean, come on, its not like only a certain faction can have PPUs, and therefore the enemies of that faction are at a disadvantage. Its not like only certain people can be a PPU.
You dont have to think this is useful or not- its merit is not contingent on the acknowledgement of usefulness. What it does is provide a view on the PPU discussion that frankly had NEVER been discussed before. I have been in these forums since beta 4, and not once has anyone addressed the idea that maybe its the role thats the issue, rather than the % protection from shelter or the # of health points that Holy Heal restores per tick.
I am saying that constant changes to the effectiveness of the PPU... while leaving the nature of the role the same... are pointless. Unless the role changes, (or unless people's attitude changes), a changing of spell effectiveness wont change ANYTHING except perhaps the degree to which some people feel the PPU alters combat. The degree might change for some people, but the problem will still be there.
To fix the PPU problem, either redefine its role in the game, or embrace its current role without nickle and diming it to death. You have chosen to redefine the role, which is fine.
And I thought I used to write a lot... O_o
Guys, can you do us a favor and please take this conflict to PMs?
You don't have to, it's just my advice...
Thanks in advance, either way. :)
Originally posted by Kenjuten
And I thought I used to write a lot... O_o
Guys, can you do us a favor and please take this conflict to PMs?
You don't have to, it's just my advice...
Thanks in advance, either way. :) I think it has run its course. He thinks my view contribute nothing, so no need to post em in this thread any more. :)
Originally posted by Strych9
First let me say that this is really two different issues here.
First issue is can a pure support role exist in a MMORPG that is PvP based? That one I assume you say 'no' since you moved on to the second questions, which is "If not, what would you change about the PPU to make it work?"
MMORPG PvP based with FPS interface is the correct question.
A pure support class has 100% survavility based in its team actions. In FPS games it is highly unlikely to be viable. Maybe with an insane effort from KK, for which I doubt they will ever move a finger.
Now I think a pure support role CAN exist, but I will get into that later. For now, let me say that I can have a PPU that is 90% defense and 10% offense right now, called a hybrid, and if I wanted a hybrid I would play one. Easily spec for say Holy Energy Bolt or something similar and still have good defense. But I dont- so while your solution is a solution, its not an answer for people wanting the pure support role.
Those percents are NOT what it 'should be', it is what we have in the game right now. Look at it closely, might not be perfect but they go very close.
10% offence - Soulclusters, parashocks damage.
It is 10% offence... I think you are acting defensively. There is no class in this game with 0% offence. Not at the moment.
About the idea of TU... well it was disregarded the last time. I don't expect it to be different now. As I have said, not even viable in this game. But let's say that I have not invented anything with it ;)
1. What about experience earning? Experience in Neocron comes from offense, not support. Is the PPU expected to level off their 10% offense, or are they expected to rely on teams still?
You are mixing ideas. TU is an addition to balance classes, it doesn't change any game feature in the game... except for the addition of more roles to the different classes.
Something different, like PPUs leveling alone, would automatically mean dropping their defence in par with other classes. For that see my examples in the APU class, and replace the words with "PPU" and "Offence".
TU doesn't change your ways to level up, nor the current game features. It adds a new dimension to balance classes, it tweaks the balance itself.
2. This 'compendium of new roles'- any ideas of what that is? Would this just be more things for runners to worry about having to do in combat? Playing a PPU is already a pain in the ass as it is- 10 QB slots to manage spells and boosters and drugs is beyond tricky. I cant imagine having the current tasks AND any new ones added in. And I dont think PEs and Tanks and APUs want to have more things to worry about either.
1- Roles are not tools in QB. They range from special class perks to the purpose of the class in a fight or the game itself. This may be done by tools, or maybe not.
2- Precisely I avoided giving direct ideas of what the roles could be to not cofuse people. Direct ideas are bad, people can agree or disagree with the roles for each class easily, however the idea still could be good and would be dismissed by this role disagreement. What roles for what class is a developer's work.
3. Its hard to evaluate this idea without knowing what the compendium of new roles would be made up of. Can you explain how this solves the problems people have right now with the PPU? Namely being due to how their spells affect combat, if the other team has one you better have one too. How does your idea reduce the reliance of the PPU in combat?
Why do you need to know 'exactly' what roles they could be?
The TRUE idea is to give other classes a role that can take in effect, no matter what class is in the other team.
The PPU Team Utility is the special perk of enhacing the offence and defence of the classes. It is also the only class with TU. Others just add damage.
PPUs are the only class able to *really* team up.
APUs could have debuffs
Tanks could have damage that goes throught the defences provided by PPUs, and act as 'real' frontline fighters taking damage.
Spies could use poisons or special weapons designed to attack and kill APUs
PEs could get special tools to overcome every situation... making them useful in any moment. Perhaps could really get a a bit of every class, some apu debuffs, some ppu debuffs, some spy abilities, some tank critical shots...
It doesn't really matter, you could agree with the roles I said or could disagree. What roles would you give them? What roles would people give to each class?
That's Dev's work, stop asking for that. It just serves that people concentrate in specific ideas, forgetting the REAL idea.
4. How do you make team roles when teams can have as many as like 30 runners fighting for an op? I assume you mean informal team, rather than just a group of 10 runners in an in-game formal "team" setup. What if you have 4 PPUs, 7 tanks, 3 APUS, and 2 PEs... how would the percentages work? Is there a system for determining that?
Hehehe.
How do you balance 500 players in a big battle.
Teams could mean something, not just having a common chat and an XP pool. That's one of the main reasons I have serious doubts of this being viable in an FPS interface game. Actually having a well-rounded team needs to mean something, at the moment we just throw people in teams without many thought... you know why, because the only important person to have in a team is the PPU.
Right now, the roles are like this:
I'm a bit scared of what comes next heh...
Spies/Tanks/PEs/APU- attack. They attack in different ways and their own stengths are balanced with their own weaknesses. Each char is balanced for combat and within itself. I am not saying they couldnt use their own tweaks- but everyone can find a reason to be one of those four types of runners. All four can level on their own, they can be active in a group or team environment. THose classes have their own play styles, options as to how to play the runner.
Problem number 1. Each class is balanced within itself.
But this game, while having a big component of solo-play, has its goals settled in team combat, OP wars, advanced fights and player interaction.
Solo classes are easy to balance.
Problem number 2. They do not have real specific roles when the PPU comes.
And here comes the PPU problem. Their roles are reduced or negated, replaced for damage and nothing else. That's why I think all classes should have offence, it would be a lot easier to balance.
In combat not all should be reduced to damage and heals.
The new line of roles that KK is giving to droners and snipers (wonder how many time until all classes have the same role) is not good in my opinion. They all effect one thing, PPU abilities. That again says how biased is the system towards that class, for good and bad.
PPUs are different in that they can ONLY operate with the presence of another runner.
I don't agree with this.
PPUs role is to support, hence they need other players to fullfill it. However when it comes to team figths, everyone relies on PPUs.
While leveling I could understand this problem; once the player is capped and takes part in PvP this changes. In the moment a PPU comes, everyone needs a PPU.
This is one of the Roots of the problem.
If we TREAT them as different and VIEW them as different, instead of trying to balance them the same way as we balance the other runners, it can work while keeping them 100% defense and 0% offense, pure like they are now.
PPUs don't have 0% offence. Not either 100% defence.
Corect me if I am wrong, but your way to balance them seems to keep them as they are, while we all accept that the class is fine.
Could you understand that some (many) of us see a problem with this? That we do not accept this system as working well?
It would just take a mindset shift. It would take runners seeing the PPU as a tool to be used, rather than a presence to try and eliminate. Remove parashock or whatever, thats fine. But the idea that a runner/group of runners is made better by a pure support character is not some odd idea. Of course they are. Embrace that and just like you want to have an APU on your team, or a tank, or anyone else- strive to have a PPU on your team as well.
I'm starting to understand what's your problem.
I'm not talking about nerfing the PPU ROLE, I want to nerf the over-importance that it has. Really I don't have a problem with heals, shields, buffs, etc... If you remove parashock today, tomorrow you will be asked to remove shields, and the next day heals, and the next damage boost.... and so on until it never ends.
We can like or dislike a class in our team, but at least we should have the option.
Now, if what you really want is everyone accepting PPUs as they are, and assume that everything is fine... I mistaken you for another person.
Really, I am in a different line of discussion.. I have a different point of view to see the things than most people. I'm not satisfied with a stupid nerf.
However I don't want to discuss with you about nerfs... I'm happy just saying that I disagree. If you want to nerf parashock, make S/D self-cast, or nerf whatever heal... do it. I just disagree but in no way I'm going to change THAT opinion on you.
I just thought that you had a different belief, but maybe I'm mistaken. If that's the case sorry, this conversation is pointless and all what I said has no sense. I don't pretend to change anything.
EDIT:
I think it has run its course. He thinks my view contribute nothing, so no need to post em in this thread any more.
No, I said that you don't offer any solutions, which is totally true. For you WE are the problem and WE have to accept the game as it is. Great.
If I wanted to discuss whether there is a problem or not, I could have re-read the LOADS of posts where people say:
It is just fine, shut up and get a PPU yourself.
Well ok. That's your opinion, I accept it. People will keep complaining and KK will continue adding more HABs, Anti-heal drones, Sniper spirit mods, etc etc... You preffer this, ok. I'm not the one wanting to be nerfed.
Or maybe not... hey maybe KK thinks that PPUs are balanced after the new changes. In that case I will shut up too. I just discuss with people that see a bit further on this, they don't need to agree with my changes, but at least they agree that a problem exists with PPUs.
Originally posted by Sleawer
No, I said that you don't offer any solutions, which is totally true.First, you said this
This does not provide anything usefull to the discussion Strych.Your words, not mine.
Second, I do offer a solution. Either do away with the pure PPU role (which you do), or change mindset to accept the PPU as a tool available to everyone. Your suggestion is the first option- do away with the pure PPU.
I would rather see a mindset change, but I doubt that will happen.
For you WE are the problem and WE have to accept the game as it is. Great.If a pure PPU is to remain an option, yes, we are the problem.
If I wanted to discuss whether there is a problem or not, I could have re-read the LOADS of posts where people say:
It is just fine, shut up and get a PPU yourself.I have never said it is fine, nor asked you to get a PPU. And I am not speaking for or defending those people. I am giving you my analysis on the ideas of the roles of PPUs in Neocron.
Well ok. That's your opinion, I accept it. People will keep complaining and KK will continue adding more HABs, Anti-heal drones, Sniper spirit mods, etc etc... You preffer this, ok. I'm not the one wanting to be nerfed. I dont prefer this. Specifically I said
To fix the PPU problem, either redefine its role in the game, or embrace its current role without nickle and diming it to death.All that stuff you named is the nickle and diming it to death I was referring to. All that does is increase the workload of the PPU which already sucks as it is, while not really changing ANYTHING regarding the problems people have with the PPU. Even with spirit bullets- if the other side has a PPU, you better have one yourself.
I simply presented a dichotomy. The keeping of the PPU as a pure support character, or the removal of the PPU as a pure support role. I think for the former to work, a mindset shift is needed, regardless of what else is done. The latter is the far easier option- exemplefied by the scnenario you outlined.
Now if you take offense to me saying that if the pure PPU is to remain an option, players must first be willing to accept the idea of a pure support char in a combat PvP game, then I am sorry- I have no influence on what offends you or does not.
Originally posted by Strych9
First, you said this
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This does not provide anything usefull to the discussion Strych.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your words, not mine.
So? Saying that we are the problem and have to accept PPUs as they are what usefulness is exactly providing?
Second, I do offer a solution. Either do away with the pure PPU role (which you do), or change mindset to accept the PPU as a tool available to everyone. Your suggestion is the first option- do away with the pure PPU.
Puh. Remove the PPU or accept it as it is.
What a brilliant solution.
My suggestions are in now way near of mentioning 'doing away with PPUs'.
Tweaking down their defence and giving them some offence do not do away with PPUs. I know what I said thx.
If a pure PPU is to remain an option, yes, we are the problem.
Yes, because for you PPU = extreme defence and only class with support role.
I'd rather say that the problem is people like you.
I have never said it is fine, nor asked you to get a PPU. And I am not speaking for or defending those people. I am giving you my analysis on the ideas of the roles of PPUs in Neocron.
I find childish to be here now quoting one to each other. But if you insist dude, I save you from scrolling up.
Originally posted by Strych9
Now, I feel that people should
1. Realize that no matter what the degree, PPUs, as long as they are in the game as they are now, will always be important in battle. They are coded that way. It no accident that people want PPUs to help them in combat. Its not the fault of the player of the PPU.
2. Realize the degree of "we MUST have them" is relative, and there is no clear criteria for when their role will be reduced "enough" to make people happy. Say you make S/D self cast only, and the PPU can only Holy Heal and boost and damageboost and whatnot. The role is reduced, but would that be enough? What about if you also reduced the heals to blessed instead. Again, the role is reduced, but how would we know if that is "enough" of a reduction to make the game "balanced"??? We wont know. And I personally think that as long as there is a PURE support class in the game, SOMEONE will be upset when the other team had one present and they did not.
3. View the PPU as a valuable combat tool, and try to get one themselves. Constructors- players dont whine when some clans/groups have constructors in the clan to do their builds, while those without have to pay strangers to build. Players dont whine about how Clan A has a barterer and its not fair that Clan B doesnt and must pay more for parts. The PPU is the same way, and also has a very specific role- its just a role that is more vital to the game as it deals directly with combat itself. View the PPU as a tool, and try to get one for yourself.
4. Advocate changes to bring people up to par with the PPU, or advocate changes to change the PPU without lessening their role in combat. I am all for removal or changing Parashock for example- and I have made several suggestions that have been well received for making parashock stay in game but not ruin PvP like it does. Removing/altering parashock would have a huge effect on the game but a MINOR effect on the game. Other changes would be to strengthen others rather than nerfing the PPU.
So sure the PPU can be balanced. Some changes to the PPU class itself can be made- but if people were to embrace the role and the presence of the PPU, that would fix a lot of the problems people have.
The BIGGEST gripe I hear is that "But we MUST have a PPU if the other team does..." and I think that is what people want to fix. On a theoretical level, if you nerf PPU monks such that if the other team has one, it really doesnt matter- then just get rid of the class altogether. You SHOULD need a pure support class in combat, esp when the class is dedicated to keeping you alive.
So get some PPU monks and recognize they are vital combat, or lets dump them altogether. No PPU want to sit back and keep having more crap piled on them to make their life difficult (ask Carinth about that part of it).
I hope that clarifies my stance on this.
Unless this has a hidden meaning somewhere, you are exactly saying that PPUs are fine and we should accept it, by getting our PPUs.
Your opinion dude. I don't have to agree with it.
All that stuff you named is the nickle and diming it to death I was referring to. All that does is increase the workload of the PPU which already sucks as it is, while not really changing ANYTHING regarding the problems people have with the PPU. Even with spirit bullets- if the other side has a PPU, you better have one yourself.
What I said does not increase the PPU stress at all. It KEEPS the PPU as it is while giving other classes a reason for their existance bare 1vs1 fights.
I simply presented a dichotomy. The keeping of the PPU as a pure support character, or the removal of the PPU as a pure support role. I think for the former to work, a mindset shift is needed, regardless of what else is done. The latter is the far easier option- exemplefied by the scnenario you outlined.
Again your opinion, not mine.
PPU as a support char not necessarily has to mean ONLY support.
However I also provided a suggestion that does not include any change in the PPU offence/defence wise. Just incase.
Now if you take offense to me saying that if the pure PPU is to remain an option, players must first be willing to accept the idea of a pure support char in a combat PvP game, then I am sorry- I have no influence on what offends you or does not.
Duh.. I don't take offence at all. But could not say for sure what are we discussing here then. I see a problem with the current PPU, you just say that we have to accept it.
mmk...Sleawer's last line was the only thing I wanted to see.
If that's all the case, I seriously, seriously see no further point in going on about this. =\
I know, I'm adding nothing to the subject, but I can't be assed to read all these long posts. I don't even think anyone else but me is looking at this thread anymore because of the both of you talking up a storm about nothing in particular, especially something offtopic according to the thread starter.
I'll ask one more time. PMs please? :(
One problem in comparing a ppu to a constructor, is that it takes tons more work to put together a ppu. Ontop of that it takes player skill to play a ppu well. A constructor can be made by anyone, and leveled mostly just by constructing. A monkey could sit at the computer and be an effective constructor. Since it's so easy, the fact that tradeskiller's jobs suck horribly and all the imbalances they suffer are brushed to the side. PPU's have even more problems, but are also quite hard to level and not easy to play at all. But just as constructors are necessary for support, so are ppu's. That is probably my biggest gripe with the system.
Why make a class necessary for other's having fun if that class is no fun to play. Why are tradeskills so mind numblingly boring? Why make ppu's so stressful people burnout all the time. It's evidently with tradeskillers how messed up the system is, it's even more evident with ppu's. But because ppu's are involved in combat itself, instead of on the sidelines supporting ppl who fight, it gets the spotlight. Furthermore, anything that goes on outside of combat is considered irrelevant. So it doesn't matter how crappy ppu's lives are, you can't reward them with more goodies in the end. When you enter combat with those goodies, you are unbalanced and those goodies are taken away. What does this leave you with? Nothing to balance the negatives of being a ppu. That's were most balancing schemes end. If combat for non ppu's is good then the rest doesn't matter.
Please take away parashock, take away our self cast shelters, take away our ability to completely turn the tide of a fight. BUT PLEASE FIX OUR PROBLEMS TOO! Give us ppu exp gain, give us ppu missions, give us balanced pvp risk, give us a sensible distribution of spells/levels, on and on with things that ppu's suffer through. Noone talks about those things, because they are used to justify everything and the kitchen sink when used against us. It's ok that we risk more then anyone else by 500% when dying. It's ok that we hafta carry 20 some weapons which need to be slotted. It's ok we hafta kill rats for missions. It's ok because we are hard to kill! Oh wait, the entire purpose of the last few patches was to make us easier to kill.... Oh well we're still much harder to kill then anyone else, so it's still ok!
I swear even if you make the ppu role unimportant/insignificant I would be a happy ppu if I didn't hafta deal with all the other crap.
Car, start a thread. Seriously. You post all these serious ideas, but they're always within someone else's threads, and don't get focused on. If I start a thread on PPUs, it won't end on a positive note, I guarantee it. I think that's why things haven't changed - you, Pete and PK only reply to other people, you don't get your ideas down on the first page. Please just start a thread with how you think PPUs would work. We can't only have ideas from a Tank and 2 APUs all the time now can we? :p
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