View Full Version : March 2004 Class Review: Private Eyes
March 2004 Class Review: Private Eyes
Ok, PE's have been the topic of a number of forum discussions over the last few months and, much like the other three classes, everyone seems to have their opinion on how they should be. I've experimented with the other classes on one of the multi character servers, but I've been playing my PE since beta 4. Now as it happens, I'm quite happy with the PE as they are now, but many of you don't share my feelings on the matter.. so I'd like to start a discussion on what you think the PE class should be capable of. Don't simply cry "nerf teh PE's" because that’s not constructive.. I want to hear where you see the PE's fitting in with the current class structure and what niche they fill - if any at all. It would also be nice to see similar all-encompassing threads for each of the other three classes, but I’ll leave that to someone who plays that class and knows what they’re talking about.
Here are some questions for you to consider (but not necessarily answer!)
o) A PE can hit 112 DEX without drugs, and that means they have access to all most all of the DEX based weapons. To do this they loose most of their flexibility and become tougher (but dumber!) spies who can't cap the stats on the top end weapons. Is this an acceptable trade off or is this completely unacceptable?
o) Many people can recall fighting PE's who seemed too fast to hit or too tough to kill. This usually means they are weaker in another area (or there is just a great player behind that PE) but it can also be attributed to their stat breakdown (INT:60,STR:60,DEX:80,CON:65,PSI:35). Bearing in mind that all classes must have 300 stat points, what might a better stat distribution be?
o) If PE's are to remain (or become, depending on your point of view) JOATs, they should continue to have access to everyone's toys, even if they are the low level ones. As a result, perhaps they do not deserve any toys of their own as some people have pointed out? If a JOAT's advantage is breadth of skills rather than depth of skills, could the role unbalance the game in, say, two years time when there could be twenty or thirty class "toys" - all of which the PE could use.
o) Without introducing a new stat, or increasing one or more of the PE's main stats to 100, can the PE ever become its own, independent class or should it forever remain a hybrid of the other three classes?
If you play a PE, you should mention that in your reply and if you don’t play a PE, you should mention that too so it’s easier to spot trends. I’d also love to hear KK’s opinion on PE’s too, but I’m not going to hold my breath on that one :D
One final thing: Lets try and keep this civil, okay? ;)
Deanus_willis
05-03-04, 15:40
PE's can be a bugger to set up, chip setups etc can cause you shit loads of grief. But i think PE's generally can win 1v1 with ANY char out there. HC tanks are the hardest but remember PE has access to better spells and also stealth (the Spy's main toy) so generally can avoid being killed in tough situations.
I thin PE's should stay as they are, a nice mix of all classes.
I play a Low tech Pistol PE on Saturn and i love it. Soon to go TC as i want stealth back. Truthfully the PE needs stealth in order to get away from certain situation alive.
didnt know a PE could have 114 w/o drugs. if that is so, could there be a viable PE droner?
would be great to have a droner that can take a attack if they are found
My bad, it's 112 DEX. I clearly cant do maths today o_O
EDIT: See? I really, really cant add today.
o) A PE can hit 114 DEX without drugs, and that means they have access to all DEX based weapons bar the Disruptor. To do this they loose most of their flexibility and become tougher (but dumber!) spies who can't cap the stats on the top end weapons. Is this an acceptable trade off or is this completely unacceptable?
To hit 114 dex you will need 4 rare chips, 2 of which are MC5s, when you do you will be gimped, although you might be able to use the high end rare weapons you will come nowhere near capping the damage.
o) Many people can recall fighting PE's who seemed too fast to hit or too tough to kill. This usually means they are weaker in another area (or there is just a great player behind that PE) but it can also be attributed to their stat breakdown (INT:60,STR:60,DEX:80,CON:65,PSI:35). Bearing in mind that all classes must have 300 stat points, what might a better stat distribution be?
Everythign is so finely balanced that any change to my core skillpoints would probably make my PE stronger, if you dont want me using the ROLH then take 10 points from my dex, but where do you put them?
Int, cheers I can use Stealth 2 with an SF i think i'll pop my cyber eye and replace it with a pistol eye :)
Str: level 3 inq & duranit armour, heavy boots, sweeet.
Con: and you thought i was hard to kill before :D
Psi: Mmmm gotta love blessed spells :)
o) If PE's are to remain (or become, depending on your point of view) JOATs, they should continue to have access to everyone's toys, even if they are the low level ones. As a result, perhaps they do not deserve any toys of their own as some people have pointed out? If a JOAT's advantage is breadth of skills rather than depth of skills, could the role unbalance the game in, say, two years time when there could be twenty or thirty class "toys" - all of which the PE could use.
If you stop us using your toys then you'll ahve to give us our own or the class will die, if you stop me using rares I'll have too use non rares, downgrading to the Blacksun would be deprsssing but i'd get by.
o) Without introducing a new stat, or increasing one or more of the PE's main stats to 100, can the PE ever become its own, independent class or should it forever remain a hybrid of the other three classes?
PEs are meant to be a jack of all trades, we're meant to be independant runners that can do a bit of everythign or with some gimpage do one thing to a high standard but not as high as the specialized runners we're copying.
If you stop us being that JOAT then you might as well scrap the class and start from fresh.
Originally posted by Shujin
didnt know a PE could have 114 w/o drugs. if that is so, could there be a viable PE droner?
would be great to have a droner that can take a attack if they are found
SA + SF + Riggers Dream + Special Riggers + Experimental Smart Cyber Eye 4 + Experimental Reflex booster 4
boing
Well said, El_MUERkO. One thing you did mention that got me thinking is a situation where PE's had to use non rares. I read in the weapons testing thread that Rade was concerned with the damage output of the rares with the current set of changes. If they ever hit retail like that, using non-rares would actually become pretty viable, don't you think?
As for the PE, I think it's point disrobution is as good as it can be, compared to how it is now. Any change would be very diff.
I play a Rifle PE on Pluto
(exp smart Cyber eye ?!? )
i too have always played a PE, low-tech rifles. had a brief fling with TC purely for stealth, but lommed back to pure RC/AGL.
i play it still presicely because, as you said, it's a hybrid of all the other classes. it requires a good deal of thought to get the best out of it, but it also requires a great many sacrifices too. that's what i like best about it, that you cannot do everything at once on a PE - you have to drop one thing in order to do the other, so the choices are hard, but similarly rewarding.
PEs don't really need any more toys, and definately nothing specifically for PEs alone. i'm happy enough that we get the low-end scrappy shite versions of the other classes real toys, because it's a challenge to put all these things together and make the whole greater than the sum of the parts.
the only thing i would change is to increase slightly the advantage of going low-tech as opposed to high-tech. right now there is still too much of an incentive to go high-tech pistols on a PE, especially if you have an SA. the advantage in speed and better resists of going low-tech, i think, need to be increased very slightly to compensate for this, or TC reqs on these pistols increased somewhat to, again very slightly, widen the gap.
but as with all things PE, only very minor adjustments need to be made to the class as it's really very well balanced as it is now.
The TL94 pulse laser is going to be a very popular weapon i think, decent range, capable damage, massive rate of fire and entirely disposable as a non rare.
In fact all the highest level non rare pistols will have to be looked on as a threat to anyone which i think is good for new people joining the game and going it alone.
PE's can have really awesome con setups but not at the same time as using any of the highest level rares (105+). I think perhaps it may be better to slot in the "bonus" chips for some CON boosts rather than gimp up to the highest level rares, because then it's so hard to die (I'm talking like 15+ CS bursts as long as your shelter holds, maybe less now that it got boosted).
PE's biggest weakness is they have no way to kill any decent PPUs, good thing they have stealth to run away from them... perhaps some anti-PPU mods for weapons might change this?
this whole "PEs can use all rares" thing is a little off
the problem is -- with max dex you give up a lot of pistol or rifle combat
in fact, enough to really hurt the use of the higher level rares to the point where you can't really use them in pvp
to be really effective about the highest dex you can have is 98 to 100 and you wear PA3 to bump you up to be able to use judge and maybe beam of hell
98 if you don't have mc5
100 if you have mc5
if anyone want's to know more, I'll break it down
Dribble Joy
05-03-04, 16:40
PEs can indeed use high end weapons, but at a much higher trade off to defence than some people think.
I currently think my resists suck, but people tell me they don't, I almost cannot contemplate my char without both moveon and ppr in her head, hp/atl/resist lvls are appaling without them.
Stat wise they are fine. I think it is more of a question as to which items they are allowed access to that is the issue.
Raising some of the spy weapons (which PEs cannot cap anyway) to dex levels which they simply cannot attain without insane gimpage and HEAVY drugging, say tl 120+ might help.
PEs are viable now. They never really used to be, tanks and monks ruled for AGES, PEs were jokes not JOATs.
Bar a few small areas (stealth, etc) PEs, tanks, monks (apus) and spies are closer to balance than they ever have been. (weapon dmg is not an issue, it is fucked atm, for all classes)
Don't fix what isn't broken.
I played a PE for a few months as main character, Personally, I thought they were fine.
Doesnt look like they've changed much either, so I'm still of the same opinion.
My opinion on Private Eyes
Because of a thread about PA 4 i read, I thought of an idea
increase the TL of the higher end weapons.
Why? because its simply this.
with the best possible implants.
(I think this is correct)
spy gets 127 dex
monks get 120 psi
tanks get 121 str
private eyes get 107 dex
private eyes get around 75 strength (I think)
now if power armor requirements were reduced so that with the best possible implants you could use them without drugs.
then
spies get 135 dex
monks get 128 psi
tanks get 129 str
private eyes get 112 dex
make weapons that the private eye simply cannot use without serious gimpage make weapons that need 125 dex or more
that way private eyes only have access to the lower end items
private eyes should be able to use the lower end rare items from each rare pool (oviously not psi)
private eyes should not be given stealth if the following were ever implemented
duel wielding pistols (PRIVATE EYE ONLY)
jet pack (PRIVATE EYE ONLY)
then stealth can be spy only
I personally LOVE my private eye.
hes pretty much my main character dispite the fact my spies name is zanathos
If the TL of weapons are being changed (and weapons being more balanced) and non rare weapons become effective in high level or capped character pvp combat then I have no problem with private eyes having NO access to ANY rare weapons in the game, AS LONG AS YOU BALANCE THEM.
just give us PE's a toy of our own (such as a jet pack or duel wielding pistols)
from what I can see, the mini launchers are getting a boost, just think of how kewl it would be to jet pack above all the combatants below and launching rocket death upon everything in your rockets paths.
but hey! at least if the PE is found he cant stealth away!
I love my private eye and i wish they could be more uber
Psyco Groupie
06-03-04, 00:41
a PE droner with sa and sf would have crapola dmg
IMO PEs are probably the most balanced class in the game (once weapon damage is fixed) we don't need any tweaks in our setups our skills (except maybe the removal/reduction of DEX bonus from our PA, makes things FAR too easy).
What we really need are some toys to give us our own niche, I'm not talking about another way to make PPUs pull their hair out, but something unique, like the jetpack or other such things.
Originally posted by Zanathos
with the best possible implants.
(I think this is correct)
spy gets 127 dex
monks get 120 psi
tanks get 121 str
private eyes get 107 dex
private eyes get around 75 strength (I think)
Whoa... When you say best possible implants, do you mean implants that give lots of dex? Because thats not necessarily the best setup for a PE. A PE with 107 dex (with PA) not using drugs is slightly gimped, they probably don't have Move-on or Proto chip in... which are almost prequisites in PE setups. Also I think that the 73 str is a bit off.... most peeps have from 57 to 65ish, depending on wether they are Lowtech or hightech.
dude....
it has nothing to do with the best possible setups
its the best possible implants that raise your levels.
I dont care if it gimps your combat if you put in those imps
i dont care about anything except how high people can get there str, dex, psi
if it was implemented, then they just need to change things accordingly then.
Psyco Groupie
06-03-04, 01:07
PE can get 81 str with a marine
Spies can get way more dex ie PA 4 levels
Uh if it gimps your character for your supposed "best possible implants" then why are u askign to have reqs raised on higher end weps. The gimping wouldt make them viable in the first place....... o_O
Pls stop with the jetpacks and dual wielding people. The ideas really are impratical. Wait till the flying vehicles come out and see its effects on the game/op fights/ everythign else before u even consider if jetpacks would be viable (which they are not :rolleyes: )
Secondly about dual wielding already made weapons is not viable. Dueal wielded libies, judges, etc is not viable since u have to chage the effect of damage on the gun when holding 2 in hand. Theres gonna be issues especially that need to be fixed for single gun wielders who choose not to dual wield. Its just ridiculous. PE's are fine as they are and do not need any major drastic changes at all. They barely need any fine tuning. All fine tunig that would be done should be by the characters tuning their setups as of now.
i think he's point was to make them unviable so that PEs cant use the highest end rares... (tho if i'm wrong then soz)
but erm i dunt think anything needs to be changed about PEs... theyr very well balanced as of now... (i had one but delted him to another monkey) and with fighting PEs its not an issue of "OMG THEY TOO UBAR NERF!"/"OMG THEY SUX0R BOOST!" but more skill related... a good apu/tank/pe can kill another pe just as easily a good pe can kill any one of the other classes.
but ofcourse there is the annoyance with stealth... new toys like someone else said would be neat... then get rid of stealth and ur set.
Originally posted by Zanathos
with the best possible implants.
(I think this is correct)
spy gets 127 dex
monks get 120 psi
tanks get 121 str
private eyes get 107 dex
private eyes get around 75 strength (I think)
now if power armor requirements were reduced so that with the best possible implants you could use them without drugs.
then
spies get 135 dex
monks get 128 psi
tanks get 129 str
private eyes get 112 dex
must i quote myself?
oviously private eyes cant get that high in the stats the other classes can in.
and if this was implemented, then things need to change dont they?
"Best Possible Implats" as opposed to best possible setup a Pe can already get 112 without dex though. I dont really see your point??? :confused:
Increase the TL so you can wear PA 4 at a lower req?
Thats basically what Im gettig out of it.
Either way your still getting gimped so the change isnt too neccessary.
omg
you arent seeing the point.
what im trying to point out is that private eyes cant get as high in skill as tanks, spies and monks
so increase the stats on some items so that private eyes can use them but spies, tanks and monks can.
and yes this has somewhat to do with lowering PA 4 reqs.
although we really dont need to worry about monk stuff :p
I think pistol PEs are fine, did u see the damage executioner can inflict,as per usualy I am all for a Rifle PE help, because they are underpowered by a bit.
Also as I said before spies are easily the best JAOT in the game, and any rifle PE with 1 tradeskill is gimped. While I hack on my rifle Pe I suffer an immense disadvantage compared to a hacking pistoler PE. KK has made alot of PES having to specialise, because there is no real advantage to diversify, and not only no advantages you get severely penalized for not specializing, into rifle or pistol.
My suggestions.
Boost frequency of rifles or damage to compare with pistols.
Give PEs a Toy, IE Jet Packs
Make PEs harder to cap.
jetpacks and dual wielding pistols would not make up for stealth. what about riflers? and jetpacks let you... what? move around and fly? pes will be able to do that when more vehicles come out anyway.
how about...
smaller vehicles that fully protect you (driver of jeep/in a tank, as opposed to bikes) and also don't require an asg. like maybe a 'mech
Clownst0pper
06-03-04, 21:08
A friend of mine "phobos" got his PE to 96/7 intelligance, and 116 dex.
He odviously had to use drug to activate the 3 mc5 chips SA, Hawkins, Riggers dream, SF.
Then add PA 4, and a couple of drugs, came off with like 178 pistol, 90 agility, 86 high tech.
And generally it worked fucking amazing, seen as he could use a heavy belt + inq 2 + shelter and run casting heal.
But personally, PE's should have stealth access, and they shouldn't be allowed to access all of spy's weaponry.
Effectivly they do a spy out of being a class.
Why be a spy when a PE can almost cap a slasher? and can use stealth 1 which is more than pracitcal.
Sorry but PE's should never have got PA.
We managed for 1year+ without it, with some fucking uber setups, but not unstoppable like the best are now.
Take away the PA, as that is the choice they made being the 'average' class.
They shouldnt be better than existing ones.
Sorry but ive dumped my PE as TBH, there totally an unbalanced class.
i'd be down with removing pe pa. besides that it's ugly...
it'd make RoLH setups require drugs (just one), and push slasher into the 2 drug range. Exec after changes would only require one drug too. I think it's fair, because spies should have some things for themselves, and RoLH is still an overpowered weapon after it's nerf.
A good example: GMs can use any weapon they want, and cap it. Weapon of choice? RoLH. Why? High damage, easy aiming and lots of ammo. BoH is good too, but it's hard to aim, so it's balanced I think. Exec and slasher shouldn't be PE weapons without drugs and gimped setups.
On the rifle side... it's balanced.
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