Silent Hunter Spirit mod/bullets [Archive]

Archeus

27-02-04, 11:21

Originally posted by Artie
but hey..when people post in the forum, they should prolly like to ask in the...say....RP forum? *HINT HINT HINT* and then i could give a really cool explanation. ^_^

Pray tell doth thou know where I would findest this mod? Or does thou just whack a lot of AB to find it? Heres a loaf of bread for thine fine services as a stoolie. -_-

* No seriously, the kami chips were a joke. The select few basically farmed them and only the major clans got them. PSI PA is hard to get but it is at least possible by every player.

** Unless you have to talk to an NPC, about the only thing out of the ordinary was a sniper no-faction called "Johnny Morietti" tried to take me out yesterday. Couldn't kill him but I did a citycom search on him and his record is completly blank (although his name appears on the mailcom).

Q`alooaith

27-02-04, 13:19

Gasp, shock horror, somthing added in a patch that was not in the patch notes....

Wonder how long before all the other stuff creep's in, all the little event item's and stuff maybe sleeping just waiting to be spawned..

Gulinborsti

27-02-04, 13:35

Check the screenie in this (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=92225&perpage=15&pagenumber=3) thread...

GT_Rince

27-02-04, 14:43

Now THAT looks interesting...

Finally a way to perhaps bring a PPU to his knees? OP fights will be full of peeps running round trying to find snipers :D

Psychoninja

27-02-04, 14:49

I guess they're dropped by mobs :eek:

Someone confirm plz :(

Weazle

27-02-04, 14:53

Originally posted by GT_Rince
Now THAT looks interesting...

Finally a way to perhaps bring a PPU to his knees? OP fights will be full of peeps running round trying to find snipers :D

Yep .. now spies have a use in OP wars :lol: :lol:

retr0n

27-02-04, 14:56

That sounds really good, but i can allready see the threads starting
"NERF SPIES I R NO LONGER GOD(like)!!!!!!!!!!!ononeseveneleven"

Sounds really cool though.

GT_Rince

27-02-04, 15:02

I guess there will only be limited numbers of these... They wouldn't let everyone have access to them...

El_MUERkO

27-02-04, 15:12

If it is some new damage type of bullet and people dont know about it, when they start falling over dead because of it KKs going to have a forum full of people screaming exploit, cheat, imbalance till they come clean.

Cruzbroker

27-02-04, 15:27

SH reload time < holy heal...
you need some backup.

(I don't think it's one shot kill, altho I don't know how SH hits a moving target etc.)

GT_Rince

27-02-04, 15:32

Originally posted by Cruzbroker
SH reload time < holy heal...
you need some backup.

(I don't think it's one shot kill, altho I don't know how SH hits a moving target etc.)

I think that some spies will be very useful in OP fights whith these. It either cuts through defences, or removes shelter / deflector - not sure which yet.

And you can't say you will need backup - no-one knows how these affect PPU's yet.

DarkFear

27-02-04, 15:41

Some Runner in German thread said following facts:

Spirit Bullets Remove S/D

Spirit Bullets do low DMG

They were introduced by a GM on Uranus last Days

Can someone confirm this plz?

Q`alooaith

27-02-04, 16:47

If that's true, then just think of what these would be like + anti heal drone..

Original monk

27-02-04, 16:53

Originally posted by Q`alooaith
If that's true, then just think of what these would be like + anti heal drone..

couldnt they bring em in before the 50 monknerfs ??

GT_Rince

27-02-04, 17:26

Next question.. where the hell do you get em from ?

L0KI

27-02-04, 17:43

i know where they were spawned, but i dont think i can say.

i didnt get one after all ;)

alig

27-02-04, 17:43

Originally posted by Token
it was on uranus.. the spy that showed it to me wont let me screen shot them now.. he asked me to figure out what they were but wont let me see them again o_0

[ edited for violation of the forum rules - clan flaming and corruption allegation ]

Cyphor

27-02-04, 17:43

This should be a good change, have to test it out when i can get hold of one, however before everyone loms to rifle :p people should look at the pattern emerging, first droners get anti-heal, then snipers get anti s/d, id guess next will come a pistol debuff wep and perhalps even a melee/hc one if they dont just want to limit these weps to spies and pe's.

Also before everyone over-reacts, remember how the raptor was going to be oh so usefull? Prob best to wait and see how it plays in practice, my only other gripe is that it should have been the thunderstorm that got the mod, its useless atm; would have gave a line of sight to the sniper so not overpowered and would have allowed the sniper to shoot then change weps, (and if in an anarchy zone they would have to risk a weapon as need to carry two weps). Just some observations, great change though :) cant wait to see it in action.

Glok

27-02-04, 17:46

Just wondering... the description in the screenshot say it's a construction mod. Does this mean you use it when the weapon is made, and it can only from then on use spirit ammo? It will take a dedicated sniper to devote a weapon to s/d debuffing.

Archeus

27-02-04, 17:49

*edit* never mind read the other section.

I advertised to buy them this morning on pluto and I was told they are spawned by the FC's.

LTA

27-02-04, 19:13

Roll on spy`o`cron with sh's, its like a dev wave all over again :eek:

juvestar15

27-02-04, 19:17

[ edited for violation of the forum rules - accusations of corruption (even baseless ones like this) should go to abuse@neocron.com ]

Glok

27-02-04, 19:19

Originally posted by juvestar15
[ edited ] LOL. You are so banned, [ edited for violation of the forum rules - flaming ]

juvestar15

27-02-04, 19:23

Originally posted by Glok
LOL. You are so banned, [ edited ].

hmm, would you like the pic of the item on Uranus?

Celt

27-02-04, 19:27

Originally posted by Glok
LOL. You are so banned, [ edited ].
Why is he banned, and how is he an [ edited ]?

Token

27-02-04, 19:27

Originally posted by Cyphor
This should be a good change, have to test it out when i can get hold of one, however before everyone loms to rifle :p people should look at the pattern emerging, first droners get anti-heal, then snipers get anti s/d, id guess next will come a pistol debuff wep and perhalps even a melee/hc one if they dont just want to limit these weps to spies and pe's.

Also before everyone over-reacts, remember how the raptor was going to be oh so usefull? Prob best to wait and see how it plays in practice, my only other gripe is that it should have been the thunderstorm that got the mod, its useless atm; would have gave a line of sight to the sniper so not overpowered and would have allowed the sniper to shoot then change weps, (and if in an anarchy zone they would have to risk a weapon as need to carry two weps). Just some observations, great change though :) cant wait to see it in action.

The spy was in a clan but not one of the major ones that usually ends up with stuff first. He said he found them on a mob whilst out hunting

Psyco Groupie

27-02-04, 19:27

I'd like to see alig banned for that BS

GT_Rince

27-02-04, 19:28

Originally posted by juvestar15
hmm, would you like the pic of the item on Uranus?

Are you stupid? You don't say shit like that on here - you can get banned for making accusations like that.

Some people... :rolleyes:

Rade

27-02-04, 19:30

I so hope that lower level sniper rifles cant be modded with this.

GT_Rince

27-02-04, 19:32

Originally posted by Rade
I so hope that lower level sniper rifles cant be modded with this.

Can't see it myself rade. I don't think there will be many of these kicking about.

Keiron

27-02-04, 19:33

Originally posted by Glok
LOL. You are so banned, [ edited ].
As much as he will prolly get banned/have post edit'ed. It is true (although since KK has been making the epic items very heavy it's been happening less).

Doc Holliday

27-02-04, 19:38

Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
I'd like to see alig banned for that BS

i would so love to see u banned for all the harrassment myself and a couple other friends who u happen to dislike recieved over trade nc or any other public channel but is it really gonna happen??

Rade

27-02-04, 19:41

Originally posted by GT_Rince
Can't see it myself rade. I don't think there will be many of these kicking about.

Maybe not straight away, but after a while they will probably
be "commonly" available, like a rare drop or something. If you can
mod lower level sniper rifles with it then all classes just got a
debuff tool that costs 50 r-c...

Psyco Groupie

27-02-04, 19:43

Rade the mod has SILENT HUNTER on it .. so i guess not

Originally posted by Doc Holliday
i would so love to see u banned for all the harrassment myself and a couple other friends who u happen to dislike recieved over trade nc or any other public channel but is it really gonna happen??

doc calling you crap at the game isnt harrassment ... 5 of you all abusing me is harrasment .. sssh

Rade

27-02-04, 19:45

Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
Rade the mod has SILENT HUNTER on it .. so i guess not

Im hoping that, I dont think its a guarantee tho :/

Psyco Groupie

27-02-04, 19:47

Im pretty sure its possible to make a mod thats SH only .. so im gonna bet it is SH only

Nidhogg

27-02-04, 19:52

This item is being introduced in a new way so I don't want to see any more crap about GM abuse on this or any other thread. The next offense will result in a temp ban for the offender.

N

steweygrrr

27-02-04, 20:16

Originally posted by Rade
I so hope that lower level sniper rifles cant be modded with this.

Look at the screenie earlier in the thread....says SH Construction mod. Does this mean that all rares will be getting specialised ammo mods.....or could this be the riflespies Wisdom of Ceres item......

jernau

27-02-04, 20:20

Originally posted by steweygrrr
Look at the screenie earlier in the thread....says SH Construction mod. Does this mean that all rares will be getting specialised ammo mods.....or could this be the riflespies Wisdom of Ceres item......

Doubt it has anything to do with WoC. Too soon, too specialised, etc.

Has anyone seen/got one on Saturn yet? Please DM if you have...

Shadow Dancer

27-02-04, 20:30

Originally posted by GT_Rince
I guess there will only be limited numbers of these... They wouldn't let everyone have access to them...

What makes you say that?

Originally posted by Archeus

I advertised to buy them this morning on pluto and I was told they are spawned by the FC's.

wtf

Why are they spawned by the FC's?

I seriously hope that's not true, or only temporary.

Originally posted by Rade
I so hope that lower level sniper rifles cant be modded with this.

I'm surprised you say this. I thought you would be happy at any anti ppu weaponry. Unless of course you don't want your PE getting debuffed. :D

LTA

27-02-04, 20:43

i am gload theres more counter measures but heh 1 spy with this will have a team debuffed, i know the rof is slow but it aint that slow.... he'll have the ppu debuffed as soon as he's rebuffed and prolly debuff a good portion of the team..... add 2/3 sh anti buff spies and your away ppu pretty much removed..

Strych9

27-02-04, 20:44

I think Rade recognizes this as a specialized too for high end snipers. In that sense, it is fine. But as soon as you allow it to be on any sniper rifle, that means that every class in the game suddenly has a debuff tool, when that is probably not the intent of KK with this.

My bud's melee tank uses the lowest level sniper rifle for causing aggro with mobs he cant reach himself. I dont think they as of yet want melee tanks to have a debuff ability. If they do, I am sure it will be a more practical solution than that.

But the mod DOES say SH in the name. It does NOT say its a 7.62 ammo mod, but a SH mod. So I think that is pretty clear. Only way for it to be on the other sniper rifles is with a named mod for each of those.

EDIT: and maybe this is there idea as to how to balance the PPU without removing foreign cast S/D. By giving runners the ability to debuff, you can leave it in and still have it be useful in PvM. In PvP you will simply need runners able to debuff in some way or another. ??????

Dribble Joy

27-02-04, 20:51

They are indeed on Uranus, and afaik, they can be bped... afaik.

I also know how you get them, and NO IT'S GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH GM CORRUPTION, but like fangers, I dunno if I can/should tell :D.

Shadow Dancer

27-02-04, 20:52

Sexy Strych, MAYBE you're right. The only way I would stop whining about s/d is if every class got a form of deboof.

Mr_Snow

27-02-04, 21:16

Originally posted by Nidhogg
This item is being introduced in a new way so I don't want to see any more crap about GM abuse on this or any other thread. The next offense will result in a temp ban for the offender.

N

[ edited for violation of the forum rules - did you even read what I posted? Never mind, read it in 3 days. ]

Celt

27-02-04, 21:22

The fact remains that while FC's and GM's have the ability to do these things unrestrictedly, bias will and DOES happen.

Rade

27-02-04, 21:32

Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I'm surprised you say this. I thought you would be happy at any anti ppu weaponry. Unless of course you don't want your PE getting debuffed. :D

Just because I want PPU nerfed doesnt mean Im rabbid dog
crazy about it, believe it or not I can spot unbalanced when Im in
the mood :p However the big problem wouldnt be PEs and spies
if low level sniper rifles could be modded with this, itd be tanks
and monks getting 50 r-c and debuffing everything that moves.

Psyco Groupie

27-02-04, 21:33

Theres also a chance that a slotted item without a name could have been made by a character that no longer exists ...

anyway - this SH thing is kinda cool but with the dev in its current state a team of 2 PE's with SH, 2 Tanks and a ppu could own upto 20 people ... perhaps the apu anti will get its rof upped somewhat ?

Rade

27-02-04, 21:38

Ever seen hybrids duel? *dies from boredom*

Archeus

27-02-04, 21:40

The funny thing about the mod is that it won't effect the PPU as much as it effects other players. It will make it hell for a ppu at the end to escape, but they can see when thier shields drop, not when other players do.

Dribble Joy

27-02-04, 21:41

If this is the way KK is 'balancing' ppus, I don't think I like it.

Psyco Groupie

27-02-04, 21:43

Originally posted by Rade
Ever seen hybrids duel? *dies from boredom*

ever seen PE duel .... :lol:

Rade

27-02-04, 21:45

Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
ever seen PE duel .... :lol:

No, its not like Im a PE myself and have fought an average of like
5-10 duels a day (including long periods where ive been unable
to play) for the last 14 months.

Oh wait *bonks self*

Heavyporker

27-02-04, 21:47

Wait a minute... do you mean to say those "spirit" mods BREAK S/D, not PENETRATE them? Then that's by far and away seriously overpowered.

I'm all for specialized S/D PENETRATING weaponry, but imo ONLY apus should be capable of BREAKING S/D.

Bad enough that droners have better anti-heal than apus do.

Rade

27-02-04, 21:47

From what Ive heard they remove S/D, am I wrong?

**edit: Oh yeah, unbelievable that someone can do something
better than monks eh :rolleyes:

Shadow Dancer

27-02-04, 21:48

Originally posted by Rade
However the big problem wouldnt be PEs and spies
if low level sniper rifles could be modded with this, itd be tanks
and monks getting 50 r-c and debuffing everything that moves.

It's ok for a pe to debuff but not a tank?

And yea it would suck if a ppu was able to debuff.

Honestly I think the mod should be for SH and commando rifle only.

But anyways, it's only for the SH atm.

Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
Theres also a chance that a slotted item without a name could have been made by a character that no longer exists ...

anyway - this SH thing is kinda cool but with the dev in its current state a team of 2 PE's with SH, 2 Tanks and a ppu could own upto 20 people ... perhaps the apu anti will get its rof upped somewhat ?

APU anti already has a good rof atm. But I do think mana should be lower.

Dribble Joy

27-02-04, 21:48

Penetrating is fine, but I think they are indeed S/D removing.

Zanathos

27-02-04, 21:48

Every class I believe should have some kind of debuff.

maybe a PE only item that is like a shocker where you gotta get up close, shoot them with it, then their debuffed, but it makes this item too powerful though :(

very class should have debuffing stuff, but they need to be balanced.

a debuffing Silent Hunter is a kewl idea.

KramerTheWeird

27-02-04, 21:49

uhm I think people need to test them a little before we jump at the throats of devs.

They could work like raptors and have some duration timer. The higher QL the sniper the shorter the duration. The could also very well just not remove S/D and penetrate through.

Dribble Joy

27-02-04, 21:49

Originally posted by Zanathos
Every class I believe should have some kind of debuff.

No, they should not.

That's the whole point of team work and having different classes.

Rade

27-02-04, 21:51

Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
It's ok for a pe to debuff but not a tank?

And yea it would suck if a ppu was able to debuff.

Honestly I think the mod should be for SH and commando rifle only.

But anyways, it's only for the SH atm.

Did I say it would be ok? No.

You seriously mean that you dont see why Tanks would be more
overpowered than PEs if both classes got a debuff tool?

Zanathos

27-02-04, 21:53

perhaps a PE could have a deflector debuff?

perhaps an apu gets a shelter debuff?

perhaps spies get support booster debuffs

perhaps tanks get combat booster debuffs

just ideas ya knw

but there definetly needs to be more debuffs.

well, not nessesarily more, but think of all the spies we will see in OP wars if this was added ^_^

that and PE's would come back as they now have use.

now just balance apus and we will all be happy

Now that i think about it, my PE with shocker debuffing is dumb :p

now all we need is better ways to detect those damn anoying stealthers rather than shock them and damage boost them. (true sight sanctum sucks)

KramerTheWeird

27-02-04, 21:54

Tanks have a debuff, it's called Devourer. Rather, they have no need for debuffs because dev deals so much dmg.

Psyco Groupie

27-02-04, 21:56

Originally posted by KramerTheWeird
Tanks have a debuff, it's called Devourer. Rather, they have no need for debuffs because dev deals so much dmg.

funny cos its true ... :rolleyes:

Psycho Killa

27-02-04, 22:02

Hah I know ill get bitched at probably but I prefer an across the board ppu nerf to this shit anyday.

Getting closer and closer to permenatly retire my ppu. I wanted to be balanced not have my life made a living hell.

This is what happens all you ppus when you dont admit somethings wrong with the class and try to bring out reasonable solutions kk just adds shit that makes our life a pain in the ass.

kurai

27-02-04, 22:39

Hrmmm

I'm probably the very sort of specialised sniper that this thing is designed for ...

... and I have reservations about it.

Penetrating S/D, and removing S/D are two *very* different propositons.

It'd take a PPU with nerves of steel and a damn good setup to try and do anything else except self heal & run when hit with full value SH shots.

Removing S/D entirely so that they are also wide open to other damage at the same time might be a bit too much.

Have to wait for the definitive word from KK as to the mod/ammo operation though.

Lifewaster

27-02-04, 22:43

Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Hah I know ill get bitched at probably but I prefer an across the board ppu nerf to this shit anyday.

Getting closer and closer to permenatly retire my ppu. I wanted to be balanced not have my life made a living hell.

This is what happens all you ppus when you dont admit somethings wrong with the class and try to bring out reasonable solutions kk just adds shit that makes our life a pain in the ass.

Yes seriously why couldnt they just nerf the heal and s/d.....sigh

Adding all this fiddly crap with all the various anti-spells , plus this new long range anti-shield thing really is sick if its true.

IMO: making PPUs easier to kill wont make them less important at OPs, it will just make them die faster at OPs, meaning you need to have even more PPUs there in order to win.....

Scikar

27-02-04, 22:52

Originally posted by Lifewaster
Yes seriously why couldnt they just nerf the heal and s/d.....sigh

Adding all this fiddly crap with all the various anti-spells , plus this new long range anti-shield thing really is sick if its true.

IMO: making PPUs easier to kill wont make them less important at OPs, it will just make them die faster at OPs, meaning you need to have even more PPUs there in order to win.....

So get the PPUs in a room, all together, and bash their heads until they agree on something to change. But it won't happen. Go look through every thread related to balancing PPUs. There's always the same PPUs in there saying what a bad idea it is, how it won't work, how there's nothing wrong with PPUs, etc. etc. As PK said, all these PPUs who are dead set against every idea suggested are only bringing this upon themselves, and it's been pointed out in nearly every thread where they post. I'm sorry but if nobody is going to think up a better idea to sort out PPUs then obviously stuff like this is going to happen. KK won't just sit there while the community fights over PPUs and do nothing just because a few PPUs say no to every idea. If the community can't come up with a solution or agree on one, then KK are going to do something about on their own - and now they are doing. I don't think anyone has any right to complain about this.

Token

27-02-04, 22:58

Originally posted by KramerTheWeird
Tanks have a debuff, it's called Devourer. Rather, they have no need for debuffs because dev deals so much dmg.

I have a nice ppu setup that can with-stand a dev and a rog for the last of psi boosters... havent been able to test fully cuz no one will join me in nf deck..but i can stand and pop psi boosters and heals and live through both... i also know how long my spells last and can buff exactally when they drop so...

imo the new SH mod isnt that bad it would be the way to mess me up in the middle of a dev running on meh or pe chasing me.

Strych9

27-02-04, 23:01

Originally posted by Rade
You seriously mean that you dont see why Tanks would be more overpowered than PEs if both classes got a debuff tool? I dont know what you had in mind Rade, but I would say its because since the tank itself doesnt rely on buffs like a PE, a tank would be by proxy more powerful with a debuff in the fact that a debuff would have little affect on them.

Am I close? :)

Strych9

27-02-04, 23:05

This all comes down to how the gun works...

BUT

Someone explain why this is really that bad?

We all NEED PPUs at an op fight.

We all NEED APUs/Tanks in order to do the main fighting

Now we all NEED Spies in order to counter the PPUs.

Didnt we just make another class more valuable in the op war system?

This wont hurt PvM, so no need to adjust/nerf mob damage which in and of itself could lead to problems.

This means more teamwork will be needed for ops. Now you need spies (if the other team has PPUs).

So seriously, someone spell it out for me why having the SH able to debuff (or penetrate buffs...???) is the end of the world.

Serious question, not being sarcastic.

Varaem

27-02-04, 23:39

Originally posted by Strych9

We all NEED PPUs at an op fight.

We all NEED APUs/Tanks in order to do the main fighting

Now we all NEED Spies in order to counter the PPUs.

Didnt we just make another class more valuable in the op war system?

Aw... no PEs. *cry*

Psyco Groupie

27-02-04, 23:41

PE's can use SH ...

anyway - a user is gonna totally ruin his SH for PvM with this mod so unless you got space for two ammo mods its a 'costly' mod ... unless you ahve 5 of every gun of course :P

DrNarf

28-02-04, 00:19

hmm if silent hunter spirit bullets remove s/d it would explain a few things. At regants about an hour ago my clan attacked the op (no ncf came but thats a different issue). While the hacks were being done, myself and a couple of ppus kept on mysteriously losing their shields and getting sniped, with no apus anywhere near the op. A while later we found a stealther spy and killed him just outside the op and since haven't had any more incidents like it (on my screen he was clanless and factionless).

I'm not saying the stealther spy was the reason we kept losing shields, it may just be a co-incidence he was sniping us while we were bugged, I don't know, but if he was using a spirit modded SH, it would suggest it removes shields completely rather than just penetrate them.:eek:

SorkZmok

28-02-04, 00:30

Originally posted by Varaem
Aw... no PEs. *cry* EASY to level, superiour in duels, pepper park and great for raids or lame ass pking. Roll a _real_ class for op fights. ;)

SorkZmok

28-02-04, 00:31

Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
PE's can use SH ...

anyway - a user is gonna totally ruin his SH for PvM with this mod so unless you got space for two ammo mods its a 'costly' mod ... unless you ahve 5 of every gun of course :P I've got an explosive SH, an xray SH and a phosphor SH. o_O

Time to get some parts for the 4th one....

Radamez

28-02-04, 00:47

Originally posted by DrNarf
A while later we found a stealther spy and killed him just outside the op and since haven't had any more incidents like it (on my screen he was clanless and factionless).

Did the guys name happen to begin with a J?

I encountered a clanless, factionless pk'er at MB, killing anybody regardless of faction.. after killing him i noticed on his tags he belonged to faction "monster" which was strange.. but anyways he dropped a SH spirit mod when he died.. (not in his belt, on the ground where he died) which was also very strange lol

I'm looking forward to getting a decent SH built to try it out, will certainly make us spies more useful at OP wars. :D

Dribble Joy

28-02-04, 00:48

The guy on uranus was at MB too....

Psyco Groupie

28-02-04, 00:50

soooooo .... is it BPable ?

is ammo in any shops ? is it recyclable ?

Dribble Joy

28-02-04, 00:50

Is it a mod or an ammo mod? afaik, you use normal rounds.

Psycho Killa

28-02-04, 00:51

Strych9 only because being a ppu is the most stressful and difficult class to play in this game as it is.

I dont think I have to go over the basics of what a ppu does by now. Heal shelter deflector save your own ass save your teammates ass etc.

Now I gotta worry about drones stripping my heal or my teammates heal (when they make it not suck) Sniper rifles stripping my shelter deflector or my teams shelter deflector. Worry about HAB also.

It just adds more stress and frustration. Id much rather die over and over because my heal and shelter gets towned down a bit then the frustration of people teaming up on me and me running around not being able to do anything but keep myself busy.

If you think balance is needing 2 or 3 people devoted to keeping a ppu from helping his teammates then your crazy. All its going to do is redicuosly piss the ppu off and im sure the sh spy and droner are going to have a blast playing chase the ppu 24 7 :rolleyes:.

Id rather just have ppu's toned down in another way I dont like this shit at all.

Maybe if it was easier to tell when a shelter has been lifted off a teammate but usualy the only way to find this out is when its to late and they drop faster then a sack of bricks.

PPUS need LESS aggravation and need there class to have stuff added to releive some of the retardation of a ppu. (Shelter sanctum only affects teammates or group shelter) etc etc.

If it penetrates and doesnt debuff then thats cool with me.

Shadow Dancer

28-02-04, 00:51

Originally posted by Psycho Killa

This is what happens all you ppus when you dont admit somethings wrong with the class

lol

That is so true. Look at hybrids. Almost none of them admitted there was a problem. And many gave bullshit reasons/excuses for their overpoweredness. Like it's ok to take 3-4 people to kill a hybrid, because this game is about teamwork. :lol:

Originally posted by Rade

You seriously mean that you dont see why Tanks would be more
overpowered than PEs if both classes got a debuff tool?

It totally depends on HOW the debuff is implemented.

Psyco Groupie

28-02-04, 00:54

Originally posted by Dribble Joy
Is it a mod or an ammo mod? afaik, you use normal rounds.

The screenshots in the german forum show "SH converter : spirit bullets" and "SH Spirit bullets" :P

also says 'clonbar' under the ammo .. im guess u clone the ammo

Dribble Joy

28-02-04, 00:56

Ah, righto.

Perhaps Crahn might sell the bullets?
That comment from the CS FC was dodgy.

Radamez

28-02-04, 00:57

Originally posted by Dribble Joy
Is it a mod or an ammo mod? afaik, you use normal rounds.

It is an ammo mod, like any other ammo mod, but it's specifically labeled Silent Hunter Spirit mod, so I very much doubt it'll work on lower level rifles.

I've looked around in all the shops and have yet to see any "spirit ammo" so i'm not sure how i'll go about getting any.. maybe mail the mystery sniper dude ^^

Also i'm unsure if it's BP'able.. haven't tried yet but I will do tomorrow.

DrNarf

28-02-04, 00:58

Did the guys name happen to begin with a J?

I encountered a clanless, factionless pk'er at MB, killing anybody regardless of faction.. after killing him i noticed on his tags he belonged to faction "monster" which was strange.. but anyways he dropped a SH spirit mod when he died.. (not in his belt, on the ground where he died) which was also very strange lol

I'm looking forward to getting a decent SH built to try it out, will certainly make us spies more useful at OP wars.

Yep, thats the guy, Johnny something (dunno how to spell the name exactly). If it's KK's way of releasing spirit mods etc. to the public, it seems a lil strange that he would attack us in a war zone though.....

Clive tombstone

28-02-04, 01:02

How bout make it this...
Tank dont FRIGGIN need a Debuff tool, you guys aLready have Sweet damage, great defence, And good hacking skill. You guys serve a Purpose, Dont be Greedy when all the sudden, Oh Some class Is getting something New, oh i dont care, I already got a purpose... Im sorry I get pissed some times... (im only human :D )

The point Im trying to get accross is that This is a good idea. I dont care anymore for what the PPU's have to say, Ive played as them, and ive played a tank, And now Ive finally settled on a PE, Come On this is an Awsome idea. Itl give spys and PE's a better edge against the Monkeys and Meat-shields armed with death-rays of Extreme Payn:D

Yay for KK (Breaks out the Cron beer)

Psyco Groupie

28-02-04, 01:02

They should have let vetterox be "johnny rotten" :lol:

... well would have amused me anyway :rolleyes:

Radamez

28-02-04, 01:03

Originally posted by DrNarf
Yep, thats the guy, Johnny something (dunno how to spell the name exactly). If it's KK's way of releasing spirit mods etc. to the public, it seems a lil strange that he would attack us in a war zone though.....

It does seem very strange, especially since he was ganking noobs at MB... I DM'd him afterwards aswell to question him about the mod, just gave me a bunch of drivel which could maybe be passed off a RP... his amnesia about where he came from, what he was doing etc.

Zeph0n

28-02-04, 01:04

It is probably a gm controlled spy attacking people as part of the neochronical story and anyone who catches and kills him gets the spirit mod drop. that actually sounds pretty cool. Also if the SH doesnt do a lot of damage while using the spirit bullets it doesnt seem as bad. What your going to see now is people sniping with the SH to debuff then attacking with a different weapon for the kill. Or say a sniper snipes a ppu or a buffed opponent while someone else rushes in to attack. Coordinated spys are going to be very deadly if done right.

ie. Spy 2 stealths and moves toward target, before his buff runs out Spy 1 snipes the target to debuff and Spy 2 comes out of stealth to attack. Scary.

Clive tombstone

28-02-04, 01:04

Sounds cool, Lets see if hes on today on serv urinus, sounds like a good hunt.

Dajuda

28-02-04, 01:10

Maybe SD will finally stop bitching about PPUs now.

Scikar

28-02-04, 01:12

Originally posted by Dajuda
Maybe SD will finally stop bitching about PPUs now.

Actually as PK pointed out it won't do anything to the importance of PPUs really, so there could still be a problem. It will at least encourage more spies and lessen the importance of APUs at OP wars, which is a step in the right direction.

DrNarf

28-02-04, 01:13

bleh If he is meant to drop a spirit mod when you kill him, we didn't get one, no belt, no mod, nothing. :(

As far as the weapon itself goes, atm it's far too overpowered. It strips someone of both shields (shelter as well for some reason :wtf: ), leaving them open to an almost full SH clip and I doubt even the best tanks could survive that without buffs of some sort, all of this in the time it takes to fire one bullet. Penetrating shields rather than removing them completely would be better I think. And before anyone goes saying "snipers should be able to kill people easily from a distance, that's what they're good for", given the nature of the weapon, it's not physicly possible to get anywhere near the person without dieing (minus stealth), plus it renders ppu shields effectively useless.

Psyco Groupie

28-02-04, 01:19

its does the debuff and like 30 force or pierce .. whatever 'stich' means in german .. anyway with sd freq at 49 you arent gonna kill ppus much quicker becos it doesnt strip heal ... buts its gonna hurt the team the ppus is helping

Radamez

28-02-04, 01:23

Originally posted by DrNarf
bleh If he is meant to drop a spirit mod when you kill him, we didn't get one, no belt, no mod, nothing. :(

*shrug*

Maybe he only drops it for spies :p

Or maybe you killed him too quick and didn't give him a chance to drop it :lol:

Zeph0n

28-02-04, 01:25

It removes the shields but does minimal damage. If they want to kill they are going to need to switch the ammo or switch to a diff gun. If they have a full clip in their they have to empty the clip completely in order to switch to better SH ammo. Plus the gun is slow. More then enough time to recast shields and heal in about 2 shots time.

DrNarf

28-02-04, 01:32

@Radamez: Lol well he was damage boosted, 2 hls and a cs burst later he was down in seconds so probobly not. :p

As for the debuffing thing, fair enough one spy on his own probobly won't be able to kill a ppu who is paying attention, but it debuffs far too easily atm.

Take an op battle for example, various people are fighting away when all of a sudden the ppu instantly gets debuffed without warning, two or three people nearby shoot him a bit and he dies. Apu antibuff has a big flashing warning, takes a few seconds and has the damage boost sound at the end so ppus can react, spirit bullets are silent, instantanious and will almost always catch the ppu off guard so quickly you can't effectively react to it. It would just mean it wouldn't depend on how many ppus you had, but rather how many snipers you had instead. :rolleyes:

Psycho Killa

28-02-04, 01:35

My theory is this will do shit to the good ppu's. Me pete the psi and all the other good ppus will just adapt and overcome. All this will do is drive a further wedge between skilled ppu's and the not so skilled ppu's.

The other ppus will continue to bitch and moan that theyre fine and after you start seeing a lot of people HABin Spiritin and misqutioin they will say they are useless while the top ppus continue to be godlike after taking some time to adjust.

Even though I know I can adapt and overcome it still will make it that much more annoying and less enjoyable to be a ppu.

petek480

28-02-04, 01:39

Originally posted by Psycho Killa
My theory is this will do shit to the good ppu's. Me pete the psi and all the other good ppus will just adapt and overcome. All this will do is drive a further wedge between skilled ppu's and the not so skilled ppu's.

The other ppus will continue to bitch and moan that theyre fine and after you start seeing a lot of people HABin Spiritin and misqutioin they will say they are useless while the top ppus continue to be godlike after taking some time to adjust.

Even though I know I can adapt and overcome it still will make it that much more annoying and less enjoyable to be a ppu.
Exactly. KK seems to think that the only way to balance ppus is to give everyone a weapon to take off there shelter/deflector so during battle all they're gonna be doing is worring about themselves and not able to kepe people alive. So all this will do is make clans make sure they have twice as many ppus. YAY FOR KK's BALANCING!!!!!!

Dribble Joy

28-02-04, 01:39

Meanwhile pvp is still as unbalanced....it's just not as fun..

Myrlin

28-02-04, 01:39

Originally posted by Psycho Killa
My theory is this will do shit to the good ppu's. Me pete the psi and all the other good ppus will just adapt and overcome. All this will do is drive a further wedge between skilled ppu's and the not so skilled ppu's.

The other ppus will continue to bitch and moan that theyre fine and after you start seeing a lot of people HABin Spiritin and misqutioin they will say they are useless while the top ppus continue to be godlike after taking some time to adjust.

Even though I know I can adapt and overcome it still will make it that much more annoying and less enjoyable to be a ppu.

I totally agree with you. I hope that more people can have this attitude and just wait to see how things play out. Once we know for sure how it all works then adapt and move on.

Darken

28-02-04, 01:40

I heared its non researchable nor clonable and the dropped ammo is very low just like 4 shoot per clip

so ammo is rare, tahts good !

Psyco Groupie

28-02-04, 01:40

Not to mention you'll have the bestest excuse evar for dying ....

.... wrecked shelter and deflector :lol:

Myrlin

28-02-04, 01:43

Originally posted by Darken
I heared its non researchable nor clonable and the dropped ammo is very low just like 4 shoot per clip

so ammo is rare, tahts good !

That makes sense. SH ammo is now sold in clips of 16 and each shot takes 4 bullets so you only get 4 shots per clip. The new ammo behaves the same way if I understand you correctly.

Psyco Groupie

28-02-04, 01:52

either that or one clip is four bullets > one shot! .. that would be blissful balance tho ...

jernau

28-02-04, 02:09

Can anyone confirm if it takes both shelter/deflector and the sanctums off?

If sanctums stay up you just need to keep the PPUs close together and watch each other. Psi pool will be more important so PPUs will have to be more "pure" to be any good.

The whole 16rounds=4 shots thing pisses me off. Why on earth is it like that?

Shadow Dancer

28-02-04, 05:44

Originally posted by Clive tombstone
How bout make it this...
Tank dont FRIGGIN need a Debuff tool, you guys aLready have Sweet damage, great defence, And good hacking skill.

O_o

Originally posted by Dribble Joy
Ah, righto.

Perhaps Crahn might sell the bullets?
That comment from the CS FC was dodgy.

Why would crahn sell bullets they can't use so that it can be used against them?

O_o

Sounds more like something FA would create.

Originally posted by Dajuda
Maybe SD will finally stop bitching about PPUs now.

Nope. This doesn't do anything to lessen their importance, infact it just slightly lessens the importance of apus(which is fine by me).

As long as PPUs have a rediculous influence on PvP, and as long as PPUs make useless comments that do nothing to help their cause, like you just did, then I will continue to "bitch".

Originally posted by DrNarf
plus it renders ppu shields effectively useless.

blah blah blah

That's what people said about anti shelter. ONOZ it's going to be the end of ppus and ppu buffs.

Anways PK is right. Perhaps this isn't the answer, but at the same time I'm glad spies just got a lil more useful at op wars.

extract

28-02-04, 06:42

Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
That's what people said about anti shelter. ONOZ it's going to be the end of ppus and ppu buffs.

or the raptor....anytime any kind of weapon that comes into play where it has a negate effect people are gonna complain....I think this is a really cool idea, however I would never "personally" mod my SH with it, for one obviously if its part antibuff the dmg is gonna be slightly less(and I think its already still too low, it takes 3 shots with a capped SH to kill my spy - un-fucking-acceptable)....

btw it takes a PPU less time to recast both spells than it takes for a SH to take one shot, so unless youre out sniping while someone else is in close attacking the same PPU, then really its a mout point cause someone attacking a PPU close while a PPU is getting shot with a SH is usually dead anyways, so I ask, with this mod what the fuck is gonna change?.........nothing so whats the bitch about?

Archeus

28-02-04, 13:22

Originally posted by DrNarf
Yep, thats the guy, Johnny something (dunno how to spell the name exactly). If it's KK's way of releasing spirit mods etc. to the public, it seems a lil strange that he would attack us in a war zone though.....

Arrhhhhh!!!!! Johnny Moricetti ? I met him in CRP, he kept sniping me and I was shooting him back. The guy ran when I tried to outflank him and snipe him from behind. :/

J. Folsom

28-02-04, 14:17

Originally posted by Glok
Just wondering... the description in the screenshot say it's a construction mod. Does this mean you use it when the weapon is made, and it can only from then on use spirit ammo? It will take a dedicated sniper to devote a weapon to s/d debuffing. If it works just like normal ammo you should be able to switch between which ones you're using once you've used all bullets in your current clip.

Originally posted by Celt
The fact remains that while FC's and GM's have the ability to do these things unrestrictedly, bias will and DOES happen. Only GMs can spawn items, FCs can't. FCs only get god mode and invisibility. And as for GMs, AFAIK only the higher up GMs have item spawning abilities.

Originally posted by DrNarf
Take an op battle for example, various people are fighting away when all of a sudden the ppu instantly gets debuffed without warning, two or three people nearby shoot him a bit and he dies. Apu antibuff has a big flashing warning, takes a few seconds and has the damage boost sound at the end so ppus can react, spirit bullets are silent, instantanious and will almost always catch the ppu off guard so quickly you can't effectively react to it. It would just mean it wouldn't depend on how many ppus you had, but rather how many snipers you had instead. :rolleyes: Personally, I'd guess that since you can't properly see the PPU get debuffed, most of the fighters in the battle wouldn't notice until the PPU rebuffed, and it's pretty much too late then anyway.

Dribble Joy

28-02-04, 14:21

Originally posted by J. Folsom
Personally, I'd guess that since you can't properly see the PPU get debuffed, most of the fighters in the battle wouldn't notice until the PPU rebuffed, and it's pretty much too late then anyway.

That's where team work and timing comes into play. Sniper sits far away, just as he fires he shouts 'NOWWWW!!!!!!!', and everone lays into the ppu. Teamspeak would help alot.

der Ed

28-02-04, 14:22

I want that mod for freezer-pistols *coughs*

Psyco Groupie

28-02-04, 14:23

As PK said .. this isnt gonna hurt PPU's... more anyone they are ppuing for

J. Folsom

28-02-04, 14:24

Originally posted by Dribble Joy
That's where team work and timing comes into play. Sniper sits far away, just as he fires he shouts 'NOWWWW!!!!!!!', and everone lays into the ppu. Teamspeak would help alot. I suppose. I guess I should stop assuming everybody's like me.*

*That is, a selfish idiot.

Psyco Groupie

28-02-04, 14:55

This doesnt hurt ppus alot cos it doesnt strip their heal, all it does is puts their booster bill up and wrecks their sd alot quicker

Darkborg

28-02-04, 17:22

This will Seriously Redefine Op fighting as we know it. And this sounds pretty overpowered. 8|

Let me put it like this: ppus will drop like flies.
If u have any idea of how op fights work youll know why, if u have a way of insta antibuffing and with NO WARNING for the ppu he WILL drop easy Believe me.
3 spies 1 with spirit and 2 with normal SH's all shoot coordinated what does that equal ?? or just the fact that we have TS and vent ?? Actually those 3 can take out just about any player in the game more or less. Sure this will make op fight SOOOOOO much fun.O_o

IF this is the case im rolling a spy and i dont normally go with the flow. But in this case it appears you need a spy to take out the enemy team.

The only counter possible for this will be stealthing pes but then again they'll just be debuffed and killed the same way. or then pes guarding the spiess will take care of that.

Honestly this is bordering on silly imagine a fight where one side has these and the other one doesent.
HECK think little clan big clan the big clans with spies in them will have an INSANE advantage.

Not overpowered Hah :lol:

Another thing. How they are released .
Sure lets do the succes with kamis and hybrids ( v.2) all over again.O_o
oh and lets only let a few people have these so the clans who gets em will be wildly over powered.O_o
oh and lets also not have the game ballance in hand when we introduce them BEFORE 8|we fix Apu damage REAL smart move here sheesh.o_O
Someone has been thinking with a body part not mean for said function here.

Yes surprises are good and all that but something with such a profound impact on OPwars SHOULD FFS be tested. Which this apparently hasnt been.

PPus were good in op fights because they made the fight last longer this might just end the fight without there even being one.

Dribble Joy

28-02-04, 17:26

Nah, not really, sure the crap ppus will be fucked, but anyone who knows what they are doing will be able to counter this easily.
As has been said, this will only serve to make people bring even more ppus to OP fights and their job will only be more and more frustrating.

DrNarf

28-02-04, 17:39

blah blah blah

That's what people said about anti shelter. ONOZ it's going to be the end of ppus and ppu buffs.

Well these are two different types of debuff. With antibuff even people new to ppuing have a chance of surviving because it's so clear the apu is debuffing you, they can allow someone to kill the ppu more easily, but it can be countered so IMO it's ballanced. The point I was getting at was it antibuffs you _instantly_ and without warning, making it a lot harder to counter. Perhaps if it just penetrated shields rather than remove them, or gave a small timer before it removed the shields (like the anti-heal drone or the anti-drugs) then it might be ok, but atm its too easy.

As some other people said before, this does nothing to 'balance' ppus in fights, it just means people will bring more ppus. The only real way to reduce the need for ppus in fights is to reduce the other classes's dependancy on ppu support. This idea has the potential to be a good factor in PvP, but atm it's just too easy to use.

Fez

28-02-04, 18:30

i hate this idea why should a spy get a special abilty of a apu it just doesnt make sense>
PEs should get true sight santum and tanks should get stealth and res i mean come on

Rade

28-02-04, 18:32

yeah it is a bit stupid to have several classes have the same
special ability, remove antibuff spells. Spies deserve it hella lot
more than APUs.

Darkborg

28-02-04, 18:42

Fine then give it the same rof range and characteristics as the HAB please.
Or maybe have it leave a trail to where the sniper is so he can be seen easily or make it disable stealth for 10 mins because as it is now its just stupidly overpowered

Psyco Groupie

28-02-04, 19:51

rofl

two silent hunters is not > holy heal

thought FF were good ?

whats that you say ? zerg noobs ?

Bl@zed

28-02-04, 20:02

oi...my poor PPU :(

Archeus

28-02-04, 20:11

The spirit mod totally gimps the Silent Hunter. It hits like store bought commando (unless the GM that drops it is useless at rifle).

Bl@zed

28-02-04, 20:19

well from what i hear, is the mod goes THROUGH your deflector, doing the damge as if that person had no deflector on, even tho they do. So a fully buffed ppu will take a good 200+ from it instead of normal damage...

Psyco Groupie

28-02-04, 20:21

nonono this is waht it does :

it STRIPS SHELTER AND DEFLECTOR AND DOES 30 FORCE/PIERCE (whicher stich is in german)

so if the gm dude is only using the spirit SH then hes gonna be doing 30 dmg to you each shot

Archeus

28-02-04, 20:28

Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
so if the gm dude is only using the spirit SH then hes gonna be doing 30 dmg to you each shot

Unless you have natural resist force and armor to stop it.

Willgamte

28-02-04, 21:22

I don't know about the 30 dmg. I crashed when we took an OP and was attacked by this Johnny guy. When I got back ingame, after maybe 20 sec, I was dead. I'm PPU and was fully buffed at the moment of the crash. 20 sec is a short time to kill a fully buffed PPU with 70 combat rank if you do 30 dmg each shot.

In any case I was ressurected and our OP team killed the Johnny guy of course. He dropped a mod and bullets I belive. One of our members picked it up and didn't say until the day after. Thats why some said he didn't drop anything, but he did :)

Shadow Dancer

28-02-04, 21:40

Originally posted by Rade
yeah it is a bit stupid to have several classes have the same
special ability, remove antibuff spells. Spies deserve it hella lot
more than APUs.

and replace it with nothing right?

Since they can heal, oh wait they can't........

And they can stealth and hack...... oh wait.......

Um yea, apus already have enough toys without antibuff. :rolleyes:

I seriously doubt HL will return to it's "full" former glory. Which means they are not overpowered in the slightest. And yet you still wanna completely take away something of theirs and give nothing back? And please tell me how spies deserve it more. According to the BS you constantly spew forth, spies can be super uber with super 1337 setups that blow away pes. Since they can have kick ass defense(PE style) and kick ass offense, AND stealth, AND a minor tradeskill or 2(according to you, your super 1337 sekrat spy setup) then how exactly do they deserve antibuff a hella lot more than apus?

:rolleyes:

Clownst0pper

28-02-04, 21:53

Um yea, apus already have enough toys without antibuff

We get rare barrles! :eek: :lol:

jernau

28-02-04, 22:05

SD, I think Rade now admits that was just BS.:p

alig

28-02-04, 22:45

[ edited for violation of the forum rules - I warned you ]

Myrlin

28-02-04, 22:50

kurai

28-02-04, 23:13

Hrmmm - ammo not cloneable or researchable.

Anyone heard about how the ammo is going to be available in future ?

Duder

28-02-04, 23:29

Originally posted by kurai
Hrmmm - ammo not cloneable or researchable.

Anyone heard about how the ammo is going to be available in future ?

You have to serve oral pleasure to Faction Councellors.

Psyco Groupie

29-02-04, 00:02

I dont have an SH or a spy that can use it or any access to the game atm

but surely a spirit 'dealer' can be put some random place in the wastes :rolleyes:

ps ha ha ha @ alig

RayBob

29-02-04, 00:11

Is this a Test Server item or are they retail? If the latter, where are they available?

Dribble Joy

29-02-04, 00:12

They are ingame.

I have one, rar :D.

Rade

29-02-04, 00:22

Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
and replace it with nothing right?

Nope replace it with reinstating the HL to the way it was. I have
no problem with APUs being the supreme damage dealer by far
OR having antibuff and stuff, just not both. I agree tho, with APUs
in the current state its insanity to remove it.

Shadow Dancer

29-02-04, 01:08

Originally posted by Dribble Joy
They are ingame.

I have one, rar :D.

Can you clone the ammo?

Dribble Joy

29-02-04, 01:09

Erm.... dunno, lemme check, it's tl 7 :p.

Psyco Groupie

29-02-04, 01:11

Shadow Dancer
www.continuewhine.com

hahaha

surely the ammo is cloneable ...

Shadow Dancer

29-02-04, 01:14

Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
Shadow Dancer
www.continuewhine.com

hahaha

:p

Originally posted by Psyco Groupie

surely the ammo is cloneable ...

Hopefully it is. It shouldn't be an uber rare attack, unless they can't cast shelter for like 4 seconds or something.

I wonder if pistol spies are going to get something like this.

hrmz

Rade

29-02-04, 01:18

yepp the ammo is cloneable.

Scikar

29-02-04, 01:44

It's funny, I see lots of complaints that this is 'stupidly overpowered', yet no actual alternative ideas to balance PPUs? I didn't see any other idea getting support so I'm not surprised we've ended up with something like this.

I don't think it's going to have such a major impact at OP wars, if people start using their heads more. Spies on their own won't win an OP war for you. Spies are also the easiest class in the game by far to suppress. Shoot a few volleys in a spy's direction and he'll stealth. If he's stealthed, he's not shooting spirit bullets into your PPU, is he?

PEs have been crying for ages about how they have no use in OP wars. Now they will - hunting down stealthing spies means fighting away from the main battle and most likely without PPU buffs on the PE or the spy. If I'm not mistaken this is where PEs love to be, is it not?

Psyco Groupie

29-02-04, 02:00

good points, well said scikar - a PE is barely boosted by ppus anyway, i'd say this is also a brilliant reason for PE's to keep stealth and/ or up the stealth times so that the oblit can be 90 again without the one minute ontop of the stealth 3 ..

Dribble Joy

29-02-04, 02:17

Actually, the ammo is NOT clonable.

Just tried it and you get, 'this item cannot be researched'.

Willgamte

29-02-04, 02:28

Yep thats true, you can't recycle it. Haven't tried my self but clan mates have.

Psyco Groupie

29-02-04, 02:30

what the fook, so its not ?

Dribble Joy

29-02-04, 02:31

Indeed.

W00t, I can befuff a ppu FOUR WHOLE TIMES!!!!!!

Psyco Groupie

29-02-04, 02:33

so, when asking a FC for ammo do they give you 30 clips and say "dont spend it all at once" or would they happily supply you with 1337 clips and a cheesey grin ?!

Dribble Joy

29-02-04, 02:34

Fine line and the treading thereof.

I had to trade a lot to get my mod a 4 bullets. getting more is gonna be hard.

Alashandra_D.

29-02-04, 02:36

Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
so, when asking a FC for ammo do they give you 30 clips and say "dont spend it all at once" or would they happily supply you with 1337 clips and a cheesey grin ?!

As far as I'm aware, you can't "just" ask an FC for this ammo. :p

Oh, and "giving oral pleasure" (As some of you have put it....) to an FC won't be enough, either.

-Alash

Psyco Groupie

29-02-04, 02:36

ok .. so would a roleplay approach yield as much ammo as you want ?

kurai

29-02-04, 03:10

Originally posted by Dribble Joy
Indeed.

W00t, I can befuff a ppu FOUR WHOLE TIMES!!!!!! Nope.

Each shot takes 4 bullets.

So you can debuff a whole *ONE* PPU :(

Dribble Joy

29-02-04, 03:17

8|

ffs. :p

RayBob

29-02-04, 03:42

Originally posted by Scikar
It's funny, I see lots of complaints that this is 'stupidly overpowered', yet no actual alternative ideas to balance PPUs?...I don't think it's going to have such a major impact at OP wars...This does nothing to balance PPUs, it simply makes them more killable. The importance of PPUs in an OP fight is not diminished in the slightest. The clan with the most PPUs still wins and in fact now you need even more of them in case a spy kills a few. All this does is make the most stressful role in an OP fight even more stressful. A good PPU will probably never die to an anti-buffing spy but plenty of mediocre PPUs will. Skilled PPUs continue to be the most important member of an OP fighting team. You want a suggestion? Give spies an ammo mod that breaks rez or some way to force dead bodies to release. Now that would be useful without being overpowering.

Shadow Dancer

29-02-04, 03:53

Yea, maybe give them bullets that disrupt the concentration of monks and makes any current spell their casting fizzle.

Dribble Joy

29-02-04, 03:54

self cast shields

Shadow Dancer

29-02-04, 03:56

Originally posted by Dribble Joy
self cast shields

Random PPU-"OMFG THAT WOULD DESTROY US COMPLETELY, OMFG WE'LL BE USELESS AND CRAPPY"

:rolleyes:

Dribble Joy

29-02-04, 03:59

TBH I'm not sure I like these new sniper mods and ammo.
As other in this thread have said over and over, ppus will overall become MORE importnat, will have a much less fun time doing what they do and won't change the inbalance we continue to see at OP fights and other group combat situations.

Archeus

29-02-04, 07:09

Originally posted by Dribble Joy
Actually, the ammo is NOT clonable.

Just tried it and you get, 'this item cannot be researched'.

You used a research tool? or a recycler? It may be that it needs a recyle receipe.

Q`alooaith

29-02-04, 07:34

Originally posted by Alashandra_D.
Oh, and "giving oral pleasure" (As some of you have put it....) to an FC won't be enough, either.

........but it worked so well last ti..........

J/K

Even a good PPU will fall to this if it strip's sheilds, just think of it like this, you see a PPU, you tell your team your about to debuff, team attack's PPU and you take the shot, PPU's holy healing off the damage, and then shield's fall, and the PPU shortly after...

Now I see this as far more deadly that holy antibuff, why? Well a SH can be used from the clipping plane, and can be fired instantly, you don't have to stand and be seen anti buffing, you can be far away, pop the shield's off and wham the PPU suddenly find's all the damage comming though...

So while the best PPU's might be able to get a single sheild type up again the not so good one's will be dead...

Rember, if the PPU's self buffing then he's not buffing, healing of rezzing his teamates, you don't need to kill a PPU to take him out of the fight...
Also, the spy can take another shot, and another, the PPU might end up half the battle just rebuffing, so the rest of the sniper's team can take down the op defender's while the PPU's selfishly try to keep themselves alive... And by keeping themselve's alive while letting their allies fall by the wayside they pay honnor to Crahn, for he teaches us to allow the weak to die, and the strong to carry on..

Darkborg

29-02-04, 11:05

PG thats sounds like another NCF with performance problems.
Sheesh i voice my, i feel viable oppinion and you immediately starts bashing my clan wtf is up with that ?. who pee'd all over your sandwich ? o_O

No this will bring down the best ppus if its coordinated with the team. They no longer have any way of anticipating when the SD will drop it just will.
Heck yes you might be able to stay alive if you Dodge RIGHT after it happens but nothing more at all.

I hope this will stay as something very difficult to aquire and here i mean the ammo. I really hope you get maybe 8 shots then you dont have more spirit ammo because you couldnt get any. That might actually make this fair for ppus and apus and pes, tanks have enough hd and little enough reliance on shiels for them only to be worried about this.

But aye if the ammo is rare and not something you get a heck of a lot of i have no problem with this i just dont want this to be a permanent part of the game in the sense that every spys and clan has these.

Archeus

29-02-04, 11:29

Make the ammo rare, but not the mod. Annoying as hell when the farming clans basically get everything at the first chance.

Willgamte

29-02-04, 13:07

Originally posted by Q`alooaith
Even a good PPU will fall to this if it strip's sheilds, just think of it like this, you see a PPU, you tell your team your about to debuff, team attack's PPU and you take the shot, PPU's holy healing off the damage, and then shield's fall, and the PPU shortly after...

Now I see this as far more deadly that holy antibuff, why? Well a SH can be used from the clipping plane, and can be fired instantly, you don't have to stand and be seen anti buffing, you can be far away, pop the shield's off and wham the PPU suddenly find's all the damage comming though...

So while the best PPU's might be able to get a single sheild type up again the not so good one's will be dead...

Rember, if the PPU's self buffing then he's not buffing, healing of rezzing his teamates, you don't need to kill a PPU to take him out of the fight...
Also, the spy can take another shot, and another, the PPU might end up half the battle just rebuffing, so the rest of the sniper's team can take down the op defender's while the PPU's selfishly try to keep themselves alive... And by keeping themselve's alive while letting their allies fall by the wayside they pay honnor to Crahn, for he teaches us to allow the weak to die, and the strong to carry on..

Yes this is true and pretty much agrees with reality. We were sniped when we took an OP a few days ago. The sniping took place during the hack. Thats normally a time of 100% concentration. All should stay focused, the AoE damage dealers should do what they are asigned to to do. Debuffers should be in position, PPU's should have full control and so on.

With a Spirit (heh the name is a bit alarming) sniper around it didn't look like we are used to. I died, ok because of a crash, but it shows that stop moving is lethal and we had to keep on moving, trying to stay out of range of the sniper. So far this is nothing unusual, at OP fights a sniper often is send out to disturb us during the hack. But with shields and deflectors up a sniper is no problem. This time the PPU's had to do constant s & d and the TS was more or less spammed with unecessary calls for s & d. At the same time a spirit sniper isn't much of a threat alone. But with TeamSpeak and a group following up on his calls he sure is.

If the ammo is kept rare and I mean rare, almost as rare as some of the rarest items ingame I see no big problem with this. It will bring a bit more nerve to the game, when someone is sniped at a OP war all will think like "oh no hope it's not a spirit sniper". In most cases it won't be if the ammo is rare. In some cases it will be and the team with the Spirit sniper probably have like 25% greater chance of winning that fight.

Q`alooaith

29-02-04, 13:27

I'd not make the ammo rare, make it constable but high TL or such, but not clonable, so you must ress and then const more ammo for your spirit rifle..

The mod however, should be very very rare, maybe drop as part's from boss mob's only, and then only 0.1% of the time, so you've got to kill a boss mob 1000 time's to get a mod maybe..

Maybe just make it like a normal tech rare, but needing all the type's of rarepart, even the one's used only for drones and such..
what are there 8 diffrent tech parts, or somthing like that, well a spirt mod should need one of each to build..

Archeus

29-02-04, 13:43

Only certain ops a sniper is feasible, and all you need a PPU running around the outside with another fighter in tow to keep the sniper moving.

Q`alooaith

29-02-04, 13:46

Originally posted by Archeus
Only certain ops a sniper is feasible, and all you need a PPU running around the outside with another fighter in tow to keep the sniper moving.

But then anyone unsupported would fall to that team, or fall back..

I like the idea of taking down shields, it's not much good unsupported, but with a good team and comunication you could at least force the PPU's to do defensive and heal self more than others..

TWOK

29-02-04, 14:01

Originally posted by Q`alooaith
I'd not make the ammo rare, make it constable but high TL or such, but not clonable, so you must ress and then const more ammo for your spirit rifle..

The mod however, should be very very rare, maybe drop as part's from boss mob's only, and then only 0.1% of the time, so you've got to kill a boss mob 1000 time's to get a mod maybe..

Maybe just make it like a normal tech rare, but needing all the type's of rarepart, even the one's used only for drones and such..
what are there 8 diffrent tech parts, or somthing like that, well a spirt mod should need one of each to build..

I like your ideas, make the ammo res/cst only and given a 120 TL.

Candaman

29-02-04, 15:20

Originally posted by Q`alooaith
The mod however, should be very very rare, maybe drop as part's from boss mob's only, and then only 0.1% of the time, so you've got to kill a boss mob 1000 time's to get a mod maybe..

u prob mean 0.001% then

ghandisfury

29-02-04, 15:52

Wow.....seems much more simple to just make S/D selfcast, but OK. Anybody have any clues yet (yes I've read the thread) on where to get them?

DrNarf

29-02-04, 15:55

The only way to get them afaik is to kill the johhny sniper guy, once you've done that he drops the mod and 4 bullets for it.

jernau

29-02-04, 16:34

Originally posted by Q`alooaith
I'd not make the ammo rare, make it constable but high TL or such, but not clonable, so you must ress and then const more ammo for your spirit rifle..

The mod however, should be very very rare, maybe drop as part's from boss mob's only, and then only 0.1% of the time, so you've got to kill a boss mob 1000 time's to get a mod maybe..

Maybe just make it like a normal tech rare, but needing all the type's of rarepart, even the one's used only for drones and such..
what are there 8 diffrent tech parts, or somthing like that, well a spirt mod should need one of each to build..

That hardly fits with the storyline behind them though does it?

It's good to see KK finding new ways to bring in items and events. Why would anyone want to further pollute the old rare pool?

@cannings - erm......

RayBob

29-02-04, 18:53

Originally posted by DrNarf
The only way to get them afaik is to kill the johhny sniper guy, once you've done that he drops the mod and 4 bullets for it. And who/where is johnny?

Originally posted by Willgamte
If the ammo is kept rare and I mean rare...I see no big problem with this.I don't think that the way to solve a problem with an over-powered item is simply to make it rare. I would much rather see a more balanced specialty mod (like the two I suggested: break PPU rez and decay dead bodies) that everyone has a chance to acquire. It could be dropped by a very difficult new boss mob that requires a team to take down (similar to MC5).

Ray

DrNarf

29-02-04, 18:58

The sniper is a person who appears occasionally in random places, it's luck really if you find him, or rather he finds you. :p

Archeus

29-02-04, 19:00

Originally posted by RayBob
And who/where is johnny?

Who? Don't know. If we could even bump into npcs that give hints it would help apart from the neocronicle story.

Where? Where ever the GM that plays him spawns. I've been messaging him every 10-20 minutes or so to see when he is online. Looks like he wasn't on at all today while I was on.

Scikar

29-02-04, 23:11

Originally posted by RayBob
This does nothing to balance PPUs, it simply makes them more killable. The importance of PPUs in an OP fight is not diminished in the slightest. The clan with the most PPUs still wins and in fact now you need even more of them in case a spy kills a few. All this does is make the most stressful role in an OP fight even more stressful. A good PPU will probably never die to an anti-buffing spy but plenty of mediocre PPUs will. Skilled PPUs continue to be the most important member of an OP fighting team. You want a suggestion? Give spies an ammo mod that breaks rez or some way to force dead bodies to release. Now that would be useful without being overpowering.

No, I don't want a suggestion. I think we're past the time for suggestions. Every single one has been declared unworkable or impossible, so it falls to KK to come up with something since the community clearly can't agree. This is the result, and if the boards are swamped in a month's time with hordes of PPUs complaining that they're getting sniped, all they're gonna get is I told you so!

Q`alooaith

29-02-04, 23:25

Originally posted by Candaman
u prob mean 0.001% then

Where did you learn %'s

0.1%, you'd have to make 1000 kill's for the chance of having found that part to reach 100%,

What your suggesting would need, 100000 kill's for a 100% probablity you'd get a part dropped..

kurai

29-02-04, 23:38

Originally posted by Q`alooaith
Where did you learn %'s

0.1%, you'd have to make 1000 kill's for the chance of having found that part to reach 100%,

What your suggesting would need, 100000 kill's for a 100% probablity you'd get a part dropped.. ?

Leaving the pure guesswork numbers aside for now, that's not how probability works ;)

The chance of the part dropping would be the same for every event, be it 1st, or be it 1,000,000th.

Previous events don't affect subsequent ones.

Varaem

01-03-04, 07:44

Originally posted by kurai
?

Leaving the pure guesswork numbers aside for now, that's not how probability works ;)

The chance of the part dropping would be the same for every event, be it 1st, or be it 1,000,000th.

Previous events don't affect subsequent ones.

right. but on average, after the... whatever time, you should have gotten the part. but its not guaranteed.

StrongSad

01-03-04, 08:51

This is like the terminator event all over again. Only I can waste AS MUCH TIME AS I WANT looking for the random joker. :rolleyes:

Its cool though the way they implimented it (sp? its late). Something new. :D

PS-Nice time sink for the ammo there KK ;)

extract

01-03-04, 09:10

I think the people who actually waste a slot to mod their weapons with this will be sorry, first off atm, ammo is not cloneable nor researchable/cstable, meaning u get (4) shots and thats it, and thats not like 1 shot here and throw in some explosive ammo, thats like 1 shot and put it away, and use a diff SH to shoot regularly.....Im almost thinking this is gonna be some fluke thing that will pass, and people who have modded their SH with it are just gonna have a useless ammo mod once the ammo is gone.....I cant possibly see how this is gonna fit balanced into the game fully.......

it is, however, a really awesome RP thing, maybe next week tanks will get a double dmg dev mod.....oh wait they got that last patch:p

seriously tho what is the deal with this, Im not gonna mod my SH if the bullets are gonna be like the kamis now.....nonexistent.....

manderf

01-03-04, 09:17

how about spirit modded melee weapons that remove S/D

that'd balance thing s a bit

Archeus

01-03-04, 09:21

Originally posted by manderf
how about spirit modded melee weapons that remove S/D

that'd balance thing s a bit

Wouldn't balance things at all. It would have to be a rare that only a capped Melee tank could use.

extract

01-03-04, 09:26

Originally posted by manderf
how about spirit modded melee weapons that remove S/D

that'd balance thing s a bit

lol balance? first off melee requires no ammo, atm these people who get mods are getting (4) shots......not to mention capped freq on SH is 24/min what is the capped freq on a POB??? alot fucking more than 24.........Id totally be down for it if it was something like a Spirit stick(bring it on bitch) and like it wrecked after each use(meaning u hit someone once and it breaks) that wouldnt be so bad it would be about as useful as this here SH spirit mod......

StrongSad

01-03-04, 09:38

I really dont see what the problem with the gun would be.

1) Its hard to hit a moving target with the SH, so after you debuff the PPU it would be hard to hit them with follow-up shot as they moved around...not to mention it does shit dmg to unbuffed players (what I have heard)

2)A ppu can buff up very quick

4) Forces the spy to fight with 2 rare weapons to be effective....which is very risky in this game. (I know about warzones, but you can only snipe at a few select ops).

So, OMG YOUR NOT UNKILLABLE FOR LIKE 5 SECONDS PPUS!! Get used to it. As others have posted, if you can give an inch then shit happens.

PS- Whats up with all these shady people who are like, "HEHE, I know where it is but im not gonna say!!! TEHEHE!!!!". Seriously, stop being so freakin greedy. Unless someone told you to keep quite....which is even more shady.

extract

01-03-04, 09:47

Originally posted by StrongSad
PS- Whats up with all these shady people who are like, "HEHE, I know where it is but im not gonna say!!! TEHEHE!!!!". Seriously, stop being so freakin greedy. Unless someone told you to keep quite....which is even more shady.

its probably just they come here to brag to make people think they have something they dont, cause realistically, this is obviously somewhat of a random spawn, so to actually say what sector you got urs in wouldnt be such a big deal, but whats really going on is they dont have shit anyways.....so nothing to tell

Q`alooaith

01-03-04, 09:50

Originally posted by Varaem
right. but on average, after the... whatever time, you should have gotten the part. but its not guaranteed.

which is what I said..

with a 0.1% chance to drop you'd have to kill an average of 1000 time's for you to get it, though it could drop on the first, or the 1001st...

naimex

01-03-04, 09:52

Originally posted by extract
capped freq on SH is 24/min what is the capped freq on a POB??? alot fucking more than 24.........

All melee frequencies cap at 39/min

Archeus

01-03-04, 09:56

Originally posted by StrongSad
1) Its hard to hit a moving target with the SH, so after you debuff the PPU it would be hard to hit them with follow-up shot as they moved around...not to mention it does shit dmg to unbuffed players (what I have heard)

That is why you use a team. Follow up shot is easy except in op wars (actually in op wars sometimes easy).

2)A ppu can buff up very quick

4) Forces the spy to fight with 2 rare weapons to be

Or a two slot Silent Hunter. I routinely carry 2 rares around.

So, OMG YOUR NOT UNKILLABLE FOR LIKE 5 SECONDS PPUS!!

Unless that PPU has a HH running at the time of the shields going down, they are dead. period.

extract

01-03-04, 10:01

Originally posted by naimex
All melee frequencies cap at 39/min

heh so youre saying all melee shot barely faster than a SH.......

Archeus

01-03-04, 10:07

Another thing I remember. The bullet makes a noise when it hits you. So you can tell a sniper is hitting you (providing nothing else is hitting you).

naimex

01-03-04, 10:11

Originally posted by extract
heh so youre saying all melee shot barely faster than a SH.......

actually I don´t know what I´m saying.. but I know the frequencies are fu*ked up...

Frequency on my CS is 217
Frequency on my TPC is 227

still my TPC fires almost 1½-2 burst in the time it takes to fire 1 burst from CS..

melee seems to have double the frequency of the 39 it says it caps at.

I don´t do rifles, so wouldn´t know if the same thing is there.

Scikar

01-03-04, 11:10

I'm pretty sure every melee weapon says 39/min regardless of your skills and actual RoF with it. 39/min is definitely not the actual rate, however. With regard to the plasma cannons, I doubt there's a noticable difference. 227/min on a plasma cannon is like 370/min on a Lib, it fires constantly. 217/min is a very short gap between bursts, which is what mine feels like.

Varaem

01-03-04, 11:20

Anyway, a spirit modded sh would seem to be more effective at killing buffed apus/tanks, and to a lesser extend PEs. for a PPU it'd be a distraction, but it wouldn't kill them unless you have a lot of help, like someone closer to finish him off while the spy constantly debuffs. If a apu/tank was debuffed, it'd take a lot longer for them to get rebuffed than a ppu.

Carinth

01-03-04, 19:59

I love the community here, I really do. I'm just glad I'm not a ppu anymore. When ppl thought I was overreacting about the raptor, this is exactly what I knew would happen.

Psycho is absolutely right, everyone is obsessed with stripping ppu's defenses, as if that's the only way players can be killed. This is the same mentality that rationalizes using exploits like the lowlvl shelter or tl3 heal. Don't you think it says something about how unbalanced a class is, if the only way you can see to kill them is to remove their defenses? That doesn't mean you make more ways to remove their defenses! I would absolutely rather have the defenses of a spy then hafta deal with antibuff crap. When you take a class which has been made necessary for high end content and make them the hardest class to play and make them the most stressful to play and continue to make them even more stressful and the entire community hates you, then you end up with one fucked up game. PPU's will become like taking cough medicine. It tastes awful and you really don't want too, but you get it over with and hope you don't hafta do it again anytime soon. Why not just make it taste better?! Why can't we fix ppu's without making them so unfun to play?

Scikar, you're grossly exaggerating the number of ppu's who act like that. Maybe there are some ingame that you run into, but they're not here on the forum, and I have only run into a few ingame. I look at almost every single thread having to do with ppus and monks in general, and I usualy post in all of them too. I have never seen an overwhelming majority of ppu's posting about how they're fine. It's actualy the opposite in my experience. Most ppu's want to be balanced,we want to fix our class. We don't take enjoyment from outshadowing our team. I know many ppu's that respect ppl who don't want a ppu's help, many will even hang back and let ppl fight by themselves, only come in to ressurect or help someone thats almost dead. Sure it feels good to pull off super ppu moves, but you cant fault us for enjoying doing what our class was designed to do. The problem is that we do it too well. PPU's often become bitter/bitchy/argumentative because of how ridiculous the community is. Nomatter how many times we try to be reasonable, another angry player starts another thread full of misconceptions and general ppu hating. They always end up the same, the same argument is played out and we don't get anywhere. When I first started complaining about ppu's, I was told that I should encourage more hybrids to switch over to pure. If enough people are pure and see the problems, then kk might start to fix us. Well rather then encourage people to switch, hybrid were wrecked and ppl were forced to play pure. So we have a disgruntled new ppu population with many in each clan. Yet do I see improvement? Nope, things are actualy worse for us now. Soon we'll be back to where we were before. PPU's will be so unfun to play that only a few will stick it out. And the community will cheer, and be happy.

Many good ideas have been brought up many times, and then lost among all the other good ideas that could fix neocron. It really doesn't matter how many ppu's come up with good ideas, because the only voice that's heard is the majority. The majority discounts anything we say and favors harsh changes which will only lessen any fun we have left in the game. And even better, they think they're justified in doing this. As if it's somehow our fault our class has turned into what it is.

Zanathos

01-03-04, 21:23

It is unfortunate the current situation with monks are.

monks need a complete overhaul in my opinion.

but as the current situation stands

anti buffing silent hunter bullets and ammo mod is a good idea.

Archeus

01-03-04, 22:17

Archeus created a few slotted SH so far. Circle of life baby http://neocron.jafc.de/images/icons/icon6.gif

Dead Bodies

01-03-04, 22:31

Originally posted by Token
i just saw some one who found some bullets called sh spirit bullets and a sh ammo mod for spirit ammom.. wtf is this.. it ways unknown damage type..

On saturn there is an antiheal drone and a anti shelter/def drone ive never really sat down and tried it out

S.L.B.

01-03-04, 22:40

I know of one on Saturn.

Cause it's in my posession. :cool:
Got it by killin a spy (don't recall name off hand but I have his tags).

Dead Bodies

01-03-04, 22:44

[QUOTE]Originally posted by S.L.B.
I know of one on Saturn.

Cause it's in my posession. :cool:
Got it by killin a spy (don't recall name off hand but I have his tags). [/QUOT

Was it an antil heal one or a shelter/def one cuz i only know 2 others with the shelter/def drone besides me so if u got shel/def one u prob killed me :P

S.L.B.

01-03-04, 22:47

Was it an antil heal one or a shelter/def one cuz i ojnky know 2 others with the shelter/def drone besides me so if u got shl/def one u prob killed me :P

Nope - wasn't you.

Not sure if that's what you were saying above, but I have the Spirit Mod itself, not the drones.

mdares

01-03-04, 22:49

Originally posted by Dead Bodies
On saturn there is an antiheal drone and a anti shelter/def drone ive never really sat down and tried it out

anti def/shelt drone??? where did that come from? more importantly: wuts it called and where u get it :p

Dead Bodies

01-03-04, 22:51

Originally posted by mdares
anti def/shelt drone??? where did that come from? more importantly: wuts it called and where u get it :p

All these questions freaking me out u make me thignk that i shouldn't have it can any gm tell me if i get banned for it or not...
IE: i got it from a friend

mdares

01-03-04, 22:58

erm i think someone is getting a bit figity... cat got yer tongue?

i'm just saying theres nothing mentioned in patch notes about it nor was it ever on test... and theres nothing in neochronicles about a "anti def/shelt drone" either. so i'm just curious so i know wut to look for :D

Dribble Joy

01-03-04, 23:03

Arg!! n00bs!! where they all come from!!! (:p)

There is an anti heal drone, but not an anti s/d drone.

Dead Bodies

01-03-04, 23:05

If you say so...

StrongSad

01-03-04, 23:43

^^^ ^^^LOL, some people dont even read what the hell they type out!! :lol:

Sorry, but I wont carry 2 rares. Im a spy so I can stay alive and stealth no prob, but I dont trust the reliability of this game (fatals, long synchs, etc). An SH with 2 ammo mods would nto work really. In the time it takes to switch rounds the PPU could easily have his holy def. back on and a holy heal ticking away.

Carinth

02-03-04, 01:13

Originally posted by StrongSad
^^^ ^^^LOL, some people dont even read what the hell they type out!! :lol:

Sorry, but I wont carry 2 rares. Im a spy so I can stay alive and stealth no prob, but I dont trust the reliability of this game (fatals, long synchs, etc). An SH with 2 ammo mods would nto work really. In the time it takes to switch rounds the PPU could easily have his holy def. back on and a holy heal ticking away.

Alone noone can kill a ppu, not an apu, not a tank, not a spy, not a pe. Well a good ppu I should say. I can time when to start casting my shelter so it will kick in only a few seconds after holy antibuff stripped the previous one. At worst an apu can get one or two shots on me before I'm sheltered and healing back up. I havn't fought a Raptor yet, but I don't imagine it'd be much of a threat on its own. When antibuffers become deadly is when they work in a team. At least with Apu's I can see the big disco ball and know to prepare. With the drone I can maybe see it on local. I have noway of knowing a sniper is on a hill accross the map and about to make my shelter go poof. With several people shooting me, I will have a tough time making it out. Especialy if an enemy ppu is shocking/boosting me.

Even better, if you're not going after a ppu the antibuffing weapons are much more effective. Non ppu's wouldn't have the speed to recast, plus they don't usualy watch their buffs that much. But their buffs do make a huge difference. If you're a spy sittin back to snipe and you see an enemy Tank beating up your teamates, zap him. Suddenly he'll be taking normal damage from 3 or 4 ppl and won't last very long. Pe's that rely on their own shelter will also make good targets, since their defenses aren't as good without psi.

Lastly even if you can't kill a ppu, you can piss him off and distract him from helping his team. A ppu that has his shelters vanish isn't gonna stand around and heal his team. He's gonna be runnin away to find some cover. This is where my real beef with antibuffs comes in. I was mad when apu's got antibuff, but it turned out not so bad because there were only a few apus around. The number of apu's grew and soon you had to bring a ppu to be backup. Then as if that wasn't bad enough other classes are getting anti buff's. With so many people capable of removing my defenses, I won't be able to support a team at all. As soon as the enemy is in range, it'll be time for me to run away. As a ppu is my job to prepare a team and then hope they do alright? That's a pretty crappy role, we see little action as it is. Do you think its fun to always watch other people do the killing? At least we could feel good about supporting them and indirecting cause the killing. But sure, give everyone antibuffs and have ppu's sit on the sideline while the fight goes on.

If you consider the strengths of passive vs active combat, the active combatant specializes in attacking. The passive combatant specializes in defense. In Neocron everyone except the ppu is active, and kills regularly. The ppu does the opposite, he lives. Antibuff removes the ppu's defenses, and is becoming open for other classes besides apus now. I want my anti kill spell, thank you. Let me see you have fun when I cause your weapons to jam : p Wouldn't it suck to be shut out from combat?

Ooh I like this idea, I'm gonna go post it in brainport. Holy AntiGun, it's not that far fetched to imagine someone trained in psionics could interfere with weapon functioning. Machines are pretty easy to break on their own, add some controlled energy and you could disable them. Now to mimic anti buff, this would remove your attack, so to speak. Any weapons in your belt will be dropped to inventory (the bottom of your inventory). So you'll hafta tab, scroll down, drag it back over, tab, equip. That'd be the equivalant of a ppu having to recast. We could get rid of parashock and have this instead. It would of course be similar to antibuff, rare, take lots of psi to cast and take a while to cast. But once it does, the target is "disarmed."

kurai

02-03-04, 02:34

The way things are heading currently PPUs will soon only be viable (or perhaps `wanted` is a better word) in PvM situations.

The absolute core of the problem lies with the scaling of the relationship between mob attacks/runner attacks and runner defences.

From a systems point of view the imbalance stands out like a sore thumb - KK have been trying to weld together two damage scales that are orders of magnitude apart (runner damage and mob damage) with a single non-scalar modifier (the PPU).

They've been poking and prodding and tinkering with the system for well over a year now ... and it just doesn't work.

An analogy : It's like considering the engineering requirements for filling a bathtub and filling a reservoir. You have one tool - a pipe. So far so good ... but - think about the scaling.
A one inch pipe is fine for the bath, but useless for the reservoir.
If you then slap in a bigger 6 foot diameter pipe to cope with the reservoir needs, then the bath gets swamped in a fraction of a second.
There's just no good halfway measure - the relative scales of the requirements are too different for an averaged solution to work.

A diameter of pipe halfway between one suitable for a bath and one suitable for a reservoir will end up being useless for both.

To relate it back to the PPU issue at hand ... if you scale the PPU/pipe to a halfway state then the reservoir/PvM requirement takes forever to accomplish. Then you look at the bathtub/PvP situation and the same halfway scaled pipe/PPU is still way too much. It floods the bathroom/stifles PvP activity.

The way KK have gone about it is to randomly tweak individual elements of the system without seemingly grasping the big picture.

They've tweaked mob attack strength, PPU buff strength, runner attack strength, runner class strengths, changed buff lengths, fiddled with foreign cast effectiveness etc etc, all the while gradually increasing overall capped runner armour/resist/implant/weapon capabilities.
(Think of it like monetary inflation, but for runner abilities. Contrary to what one might expect from reading the complaint threads there have been a great many more boosts than there have been nerfs. Noobs now have a vastly more difficult time than they used to a year ago)
The problem is that they have only looked at each element in isolation - because of the magnifying effect stemming from the scale differences what fixes one problem makes another twice as bad.

The current flavour of the month regarding PPU balancing at KK seems to be to concentrate on nerfing them/making them easily removable in PvP situations.

This improves the PvP situation for the non monk classes, but leaves APUs up shit creek without a paddle, and leaves the PPU endlessly doing hand-holding cave runs

If they keep down this road I think most reasonable people can see that there would be very little incentive to go through the tedious and awkward PPU levelling process.

There are no easy answers, or magic bullet fixes here.

If you solely scale PPUs to current mob/guard strength then PvP battles will monumentally pointless - you might as well throw snowballs at the sun. The flip side is solely scaling them for PvP - then you will have every mob larger than a hopper becoming a mortal peril.
It's abundantly clear the the current halfway measure is unsatisfactory to both situations.

The best I can come up with for now is to separate PvP and PvM damage, so that PPU buffs have differing effectiveness depending on whats hitting you.

I really can't see another way, currently, to bridge the two systems in an effective manner.

manderf

02-03-04, 04:17

omg hax

Rade

02-03-04, 10:19

I disagree kurai; yeah mobs and players recieve very different damage but
they deal more or less the same, so there shouldnt be a problem using the same
scale as you talk about. Being shot by a grim reaper or by a tank with a Dev isnt
all that different. So why should the amount of damage done to mobs have
anything to do with ppu balance? I dont see how this matter in any way.

Imo the problem is that shields and heals are simply too strong, the simplest way
for KK to have solved this issue would have been to slowly decrease their
strength until they found a level where they were not as incredibly overpowering
as they are now.

**Edit: And then we wouldnt have needed the PPU job to be so damn stressful,
we would only need one class with a debuff tool, no anti-heal drones and
whatnot. shields duration could be raised to 10 mins so that you dont have to
recast them on yourself and your time all the friggin time etc. I think PPUs could
have been less stressful and more balanced at the same time. This would but all
PPUs on a medium level instead of having the ubar PPUs and then the noob
ones that gets a seizure when they are attacked.

Radamez

04-03-04, 17:19

OK so.. what exactly is the deal with the ammo? I have an SH with the Spirit Mod in now.. but i'm hesitant to use it in case it becomes impossible to acquire anymore of the ammo...

Any attempt to clone or research the ammo has failed for me, yet i've heard people have managed to do it? Want to let me in on the secret? :confused:

If it truly is uncloneable and unresearchable, I find that rather illogical, why not make it super high TL so only specialised recyclers (not many of them now, is there?) can create it. This way it still wouldn't be easy to get, but at least it wouldn't be impossible...

Candaman

04-03-04, 20:19

I don't know i've found on my ppu i've been taking more dmg than usual from rifle pistols and somewhat from cannons aswell. On the flip side two days ago me on my low tech rifle pe and two spy's took down a ppu solo. Then me on my melee tank and a droner took down a ppu. These two weren't great examples of good ppu's but then me and two other melee tanks and a droner took down a very experienced ppu.

Now a month back they would not have even scratched the surface

Shadow Dancer

04-03-04, 21:12

Strych9

04-03-04, 21:36

Originally posted by Radamez
If it truly is uncloneable and unresearchable, I find that rather illogical, why not make it super high TL so only specialised recyclers (not many of them now, is there?) can create it. This way it still wouldn't be easy to get, but at least it wouldn't be impossible... Then all it takes is someone to LOM a few points into recycle and snag a recycle glove, and that whole server has access to unlimited ammo. The TL would then no longer be anything special.

I say make the ammo normal TL and easily cloneable, and just make the mods themselves the truly rare parts.

Myrlin

04-03-04, 23:34

Originally posted by Radamez
OK so.. what exactly is the deal with the ammo? I have an SH with the Spirit Mod in now.. but i'm hesitant to use it in case it becomes impossible to acquire anymore of the ammo...

Any attempt to clone or research the ammo has failed for me, yet i've heard people have managed to do it? Want to let me in on the secret? :confused:

If it truly is uncloneable and unresearchable, I find that rather illogical, why not make it super high TL so only specialised recyclers (not many of them now, is there?) can create it. This way it still wouldn't be easy to get, but at least it wouldn't be impossible...

It wouldn't take long for one person to clone it and sell it, thus further screwing up the economy. Once the big clans get it they'd dedicate an alt to recycling and they'd have enough to cover the rest of the server.

Drexel

05-03-04, 05:51

Are you guys telling me we have to wait for a GM to spawn the ammo ?

So it will be as common as Laurant Hovers & Titan armour.

Thats just peachy keen, i dont know any GM's who can spawn this for me so I will have to pay those with connections dearly for this item.

Fucken A, great plan.

Or will it be like Kami Solders so I speck a good SH with the mod then they stop the auto spawn once a select few have the item.

Even fucken better.

I apologise unreservedly if I am wrong.

I love this game, but I FUCKEN HATE GM spawns.

mdares

05-03-04, 06:35

Originally posted by Drexel
Are you guys telling me we have to wait for a GM to spawn the ammo ?

So it will be as common as Laurant Hovers & Titan armour.

Thats just peachy keen, i dont know any GM's who can spawn this for me so I will have to pay those with connections dearly for this item.

Fucken A, great plan.

Or will it be like Kami Solders so I speck a good SH with the mod then they stop the auto spawn once a select few have the item.

Even fucken better.

I apologise unreservedly if I am wrong.

I love this game, but I FUCKEN HATE GM spawns.

i agree; while the concept of getting this new item out to the players is nice, the way its being implemented is kinda, for a lack of a better phrase, fucked up.

Perhaps another way like in the form of a miniepic with GMs posing as a "wanderer" in the wastes just walking through zones... and u need to find him and do something for him... dunno but just an idea against gm spawn...

but as drex said, if GM spawn is NOT the case then i apologize and will be going back to my corner :D