View Full Version : Stealth balance [BRAIN PORT ]
Truesight eye 6x L Techparts or Epic Run /Mission Reward
INT 90 Used By PPUS/APUS/SPYS/PE’s to Target Steathers and See the Sealth Cloud Within a Certan Range
Downside -3 INT
Truesight Helmet 5x T- Techparts or Epic Run /Mission Reward
STR 90 Used by Tanks With built in Electronics to Combat Steathers and Allow them to See the cloud and Target Within a Certan Range
Downside Helmet Gives No Resist At All and – 10 Agility
Truesight Scope 5x E – Techparts or Run /Mission Reward
Used as a special Scope Same electronic as a Truesight Helmet Will show you a Steather Cloud and allow you to Target him Through a Scoped Weapon
Downside Much Shorter Distance that a Standard Scope.
Dribble Joy
25-02-04, 12:31
And totally fuck pistollers.
Make the scope a flashlight, people stealthed show up under it's beam.
Having a "true sight" implant woul "nerf" the stealth too much in my opinion.
I would rather have a device that lets you see a stelthed person (which you must use as a weapon in the QB). This way you cannot use the true sight to target AND shoot people. You would for example have to use the true sight device first, get a grip on where the stealther is and the fire away an AoE weapon.
Also, it is still usable in OP recon, mission recon or whatever.
Maybe a way for all classes to see stealthers would be good, but it should be something time limited with drawbacks.
e.g. a drug that enhances your eyes allowing you to see stealthers within 20 metres.
Fine to use in combat or when chasing down a stealther, but you get bad drugflash after so people won't use it all the time.
If we went with your idea we might as well just get rid of stealth (and half the playerbase).
Th epoint of my suggestions is. There High Level Requirements for use and enough of a downside that most people will not use them UNITIL the threat is arround.
In OP Fight people will probably not use them. But if a Steather or 2 are PK people...the people who come to help kill the Steathers will come kitted out to deal with that specific Problem.
i.e a tank will go to his gogo and grab is Truesight helmet.
IMO stealth is used to sneak up on People and SPY and maybe Escape quickly.
Its not a GOD MODE lets take the piss out of these 4 people Toy. SHoot a few rounds and watch them run around like idiots for the next hour of so.
Surely in the Hi-Tech world of Neocron You would have Hi Tech Devices to Detect Enery Emmisions or Heat Signitures.
Originally posted by Babes
[B]INT 90 Used By [...] PE’s
You must be joking...
the only way to balance stealth is to remove it.
Originally posted by Oath
the only way to balance stealth is to remove it.
Got there like 3 seconds before me.
Originally posted by Mr_Snow
Got there like 3 seconds before me.
i aim to pwn :D
You gotta be kidding... apu's could see and target stealthers within a certain range just using an eye?
Do you realize that all monks would wear the eye always?
I can hear the future nerf screams from here.
What about a tool only usable by spies, and maybe a lower TL version for PE's, that uncovers stealthers when used. With this maybe for once people would have to call spies and pe's to do something.
And call it with a cyberpunkish name please, we already have enought of DnD in this game... something like Magnetic Field Generator, or EMF (ElectroMagnetic Field).
And removing True Sight Sanctum from ppu's is also a good idea.
All classes should have the ability to both see stealth and to anti-buff kk already has biased too much towards one class ie monks and cant have them doing the same thing towards another class and then removing stuff from others.
Dribble Joy
25-02-04, 13:54
Though I am inclined to agree, you can'tgive all classes the ability to do the same things/everything.
Otherwise, what's the point?
Some do some stuff better then others but all should be able to do everything even if they can only do it badly and if you keep biasing towards one class or another you are going whatever class o cron
While we're at it we might as well get rid of the new transform toy for spies before its even put in game. It might allow someone to get away from you in a crowd....
Everytime we get something new and interesting that brings a class back to life, the other classes spend all their time moaning about how it makes their lives harder.
Get over it.
Since holo vests dont even work yet nobody can really comment on them but personally I doubt they are going to be anything other then something you will use for shits and giggles for a few hours after their release and then they will be stowed in apartments for eternity.
They wont be useful unless you can change name faction clan etc and according to KKs policys thats a bannable offense.
Dribble Joy
25-02-04, 14:04
Originally posted by Mr_Snow
Some do some stuff better then others but all should be able to do everything even if they can only do it badly and if you keep biasing towards one class or another you are going whatever class o cron
There lies the virtually impossible task of balancing.
Each class should have unique skills (even the PE, they are unique in they draw on all skills, but not the high level/specialist abilities of them) that the others cannot use.
The problem comes when the slightest unbalance arrives and people jump on in like ravenous hyenas.
I disagree Mr_Snow. All classes should have special and unique traits.
The problem with monks in my opinion is very different:
- Monks are in the polar opposite extremes depending on the subclass, this coupled with the ability to share roles between apu/ppu situates them in the top.
- In top of this the only special traits in the game were held by monks, like all the new sanctums for ppu's or the ability to debuff for apu monks.
The problem with the first is that no one should be in the extreme and at the same time being able to negate the tradeoffs that this entails. I.E. apu damage + ppu defence = bad idea.
The problem with the second is that all the special roles existing in the game (aside stealth now) were held by monks, the ability to support then was only a monk ability.
If you really believe in the theory of all classes should be equal in means and resources, then all classes should be able to stealth, to tradeskill, to have the same weapons and same damage, same defence, etc etc...
I think this is bad, and applying it only to anti-stealth resources would be biased.
All classes should not have the ability to anti-stealth/anti-buff, instead stealth and buffs should create less impact in the game.
IMO the way is in another place, not making us equal.
Originally posted by Mr_Snow
Some do some stuff better then others but all should be able to do everything even if they can only do it badly and if you keep biasing towards one class or another you are going whatever class o cron
OK, I want to be able to rez with my spy.
We're going towards PPUcron cuz they're the only ones that can rez.
I also want to be able to gun a rhino. Even if my aiming is crap, I want to be able to do it.......
:rolleyes:
I said every class should be able to do everything even if they can only do it badly.
Theres nothing stopping a tank from tradeskilling or being an apu other then the fact that they do it so badly its not viable, and i think somebody came up with a completely gimped tank setup that could use stealth one, what Im not even saying that all new toys should be useable by every class but every class should be able to fight these new toys to a certain extent.
Even these anti-stealth ideas that babes suggested could be used not to target stealth but to be able to follow them with ease so you can shoot them as soon as they come out of stealth.
Originally posted by Jerto
I also want to be able to gun a rhino. Even if my aiming is crap, I want to be able to do it.......
:rolleyes:
Afaik If you get all rare str drugs and put in str imps you can do that as a spy.Not 100% sure on that because Im in college and dont have access to all the stats I need to be sure.
As for ressing I always thought there should be a resusitation divice but nobody listens to me really.
It is a bad analogy. Any class can use the lowest resources of others' for two reasons:
- The class itself has the same resources in its own field (*this has an exception, explained below)
- It has to be a progression in the game to create a leveling threadmill and allow us to level up with our own class resources, otherwise we would start with 100 in our main stats already.
A tank doesn't need to use apu modules because he already have means to deal damage; however he cannot stealth and dont have any similar role, that's unique to the spy/pe class. The same could be said about psi shelters/deflectors/heals, it's a trait of ppu/pe class (*read the aclaration below).
For default, the PE class should be the only allowed to avoid specialization penalties, it's flawed and that's why PE's don't have 60 in all their stats, it would be unviable.
I agree that every class should have a chance to fight against the others, independently of their perks, but the way to do this is not giving all the classes resources to counter these unique traits, instead these special roles, like is stealth, should have their own limits to prevent abuses and imbalances over other classes.
If you want balance, this is the only way.
*Note:
Now to explain about the psi 'passive' powers being shared for the mayority of classes... In the game KK have commited a flaw since the beginning, and it is tieing us to an unavoidable dependancy of ppu powers.
In theory the only class allowed to use psi powers besides ppu's should be the PE (or spies if you want to follow the story-line); however as there aren't ANY other resources to shield and heal ourselves, psi has to be usable even in minor cuantities by other classes.
Ideally tanks should be more resistant against damage attacks, hence deflectors being not needed, and medical-kits improved to allow non-psi users (tanks/spies) to heal as if they had a psi TL-3 heal (non-stackable with psi powers).
Spies should have the technology at their dispossal, to either heal themselves as medics or to shield with field generators. These would be the equivalent to psi powers (non-stackable).
Following the story line PE's should fall into this category, but story cant be use to balance I guess.
This is not the case in the game, and as there are no other resources to cover the basic needs for all classes (as is heal), a certain ammount of psi is given to everyone.
Allowing all classes to debuff and uncover stealthers goes beyond the basic needs, it deepens into specifical roles... a tank able to do this would place himself in a role that doesn't fit his class, thus unbalancing further the game.
What we need is to prevent the abuse of these tools, at the same time KK creates more for all classes.
In my opinion this game is falling in a big mistake, and it is our fault. We love our independancy in the game to a point that we fall in wanting to be able to do the same things that other classes do, in the end assuming their roles almost as good as they could do.
To me balance is this:
1) Each class needs to be allowed to have three types of roles:
- Given roles: specifical perks and traits by default for the class, unique in a form that only the said class can be specialist in this role.
Example:
Spies - stealth, anti-stealth, long range combat precision (snipers)
Tanks - greatest damage resistance and damage dealing, AoE weapons improved, etc...
Monks - PSI powers
- Assumed roles: the ability for the class to be proficient in certain areas of his election. This means that certain roles can be assumed for more than one class, but a sacrifice is necessary to avoid holding too many roles and to not create imbalance.
Why is this necessary? To avoid the essentiality of one class over the others
Example: More than one class can be field-medic/supporter. The exclusivity of ppu's in this subject is sick.
- Shared roles: all classes need certain roles for their own survival, as it is the ability to deal damage, take damage, to heal, etc...
2) The unique roles of each class impact in the game on a subsidiary form, a factor to favour them in any situation but not the deciding factor, leaving this last to the player skill. Therefore the player has to find the class appropiate to his own likes and feel confortable playing it, instead of choosing the class for its power or reliability in combat fields.
Example:
The idea of monks or tanks dominating the OP battlefield has to go away. Every class must favour the group on equal terms inside its own field. Which leads me to the next point....
3) In the group all the roles sum up with the rest of other classes', drawing a big picture of coordination where every one plays his own role in favour of the others.
Example: At the moment the terms Group/Team in Neocron mean ppu+[insert class here]; this is wrong and needs to change.
Where fits the PE in all of this... tbh with all the changes that KK made in the other classes I'm surprised it fits somewhere. Since specialization is reaching insane proportions in this game (TL-120 tools: Obliterator; and TL-114 weapons: First Love) we are each day further away from the original concept of the PE.
I'll stick to my idea that PE's should keep using the lowest/medium TL resources of the specialist classes at the same time he specializes greatly in the dexterity field... somat... somat...somat...
I guess this is my rant post :p
Just as always I dont mean offence to anyone, this is my point of view... etc...
Hackenstein
25-02-04, 20:27
Why dont you make it a weapon. WIth a con of influence and a range. It wont show the haze of the field but expose them as long as the reticle is on them. That would mean you would need a second person to shot them while you would have to keep them targeted. just a little Idea.
Logan_storm_03
25-02-04, 22:00
why does every one hate stealthers , its not unbalenced, its just people dont like other classes having differn't abilities, i dont see spys moaning about Tanks super cool plasma cannons. Its like a game i use to play before neocron called AvP2 which people always moaned about the Predator weapons because they didnt have anough skill to cope with them because they can lock on to you, but if you where good like me :D there easy if you know how to combat them. Basicly spys need tools like stealth to help them in situations, because spys do tend to be at a unfair advantage in pvp, they can have good attack dammage but they cant last long enough to use it to much affect.
well thats my views...
Shadow Dancer
25-02-04, 23:27
Make it so that when you put your weapon away, there's a timer during which you cannot activate stealth. That keeps stealth just fine for recon and stuff, but you stop the lame ass "stealth shoot stealth shoot stealth shoot stealth shoot" bs.
Originally posted by Logan_storm_03
why does every one hate stealthers , its not unbalenced, its just people dont like other classes having differn't abilities, i dont see spys moaning about Tanks super cool plasma cannons. Its like a game i use to play before neocron called AvP2 which people always moaned about the Predator weapons because they didnt have anough skill to cope with them because they can lock on to you, but if you where good like me :D there easy if you know how to combat them. Basicly spys need tools like stealth to help them in situations, because spys do tend to be at a unfair advantage in pvp, they can have good attack dammage but they cant last long enough to use it to much affect.
well thats my views...
There's a key difference here between AvP2 and NC. In AvP2 the game was balanced around the stealth in the first place. The Preds had stealth yes, but there were counters - aliens could see them anyway so no problems there. Marines had motion tracking to get a rough idea on location when the pred moved, plus a huge array of rapid firing and area effect weaponry. You've got a 99 round clip Pulse Gun which also has grenades - spray a bit and when you see green blood lob a grenade, one dead Pred. Smartgun tracks them when they move, no questions asked, and has lotsa ammo to spray like Pulser when the Pred isn't moving. Minigun, rocket launcher, need I say more?
By contrast, stealth in NC was implemented as more of an afterthought. The main justification behind it was that spies have far too low offense. Since then we have grown to understand more about resists and setups, and also been given access to additional tools - Moveon, PPR, spy PA, to name a few - which bring the spy's meagre defence up to a significant level. At the same time we see PEs using stealth as well. There is nothing inherently wrong with this, it's just that the only justification PEs can come up with as to why they should be able to use it, from a balance point of view, can be applied to other classes as well.
Consider how few counters there are to the stealth tool. Direct fire weapons cannot hurt the stealther. That cuts out the majority of useful weapons. We're left with no effective pistols, no effective rifles, severely range limited APU modules which will also damage severely anyone chasing behind the stealther, and Tank AoE which fires projectiles which are too slow and too inaccurate. Try hitting any moving target with a Moon Striker rocket or a Malediction shot out in a relatively flat area of the wastelands. It's a lottery, and to add to it you can't see the target. Tank AoE is designed to scatter groups of enemies and disperse them, not to kill individual enemies.
Using freezers and poison to give you something to follow is all well and good, but it's still requiring a lot of luck. The stealther just has to pop antidote or antishock pills and he's sorted - he can't get poisoned or shocked until the next time he unstealths which is plenty of time for a spy at least.
So far the only specific counter KK have provided is the True Sight Sanctum, which is almost completely ineffective with its minuscule range. That leaves Damage Boost being pretty much the best shot. The effect is much more visible than freeze or poison effects, and it makes AoE weapons effective. Unfortunately, that too can be negated with a pill (albeit slower than the other two), but more importantly, the effect does not always show up when the target stealths.
At any rate, the problem with stealth is not necessarily to do with the stealth itself, but with the lack of counters provided.
How many threads are we going to have trying to get KK to nerf the stealth!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:
We are spies after all and what good is a spy if we cannot stealth into an Outpost, check out the status of the enemy and report back to the clan?
If every man and his dog can have an anti-stealth device, what would be the point of us using stealth?
Another example of the use of stealth is when you are out hunting for rares (or whatever), on your own or in a small team. I am not a pure combat spy so my damage and defence are not great, I don't use drugs to boost abilities, etc. etc. I was killing a Warbot and had been injured, just about to hack it when an APU monk appears running at me, casts some fire spell on me and I start to burn, my health dropping like I am a paper bag. I did not see him coming and within seconds I would have been dead. I had no chance to change weapon, so I quickly stealthed, used a medpack and ran to my hover, got on and sped away.
Without stealth I would have died, lost my belt, had to re-poke 3 implants, etc. etc.
Each class has to have their own abilities, stealth being a spies!!
I can guess it would be annying if you were trying to kill a spy who keeps stealthing away to heal. But I find it annoying I cannot snipe you using the maximum range of my commando... now if this changed maybe stealth would not be such a requirement
SigmaDraconis
26-02-04, 13:12
what they need to do is fix the stealth tools themselves..NOT come up with half assed, poorly thought out alternatives/duct tape solutions..
increasing the duration of invisibilty for each level, as well as SIGNIFICANTLY decreasing the frequency of the tools. By doing this it would allow even Stealth1 users to gain a fair amount of ground between them and their attackers....On the flip side it would get rid of these damned people who use it as a method of near invulnerability every 11 seconds when theyre dancing around something that should normally flatten them into the ground..
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