View Full Version : How does foreign cast really work? Numbers.
Well, this is drowning in the PE thread but its some damn useful
information.
Originally posted by Rade
Hey QD, I just did the testing with shelters. Unbuffed I took 60
from a RoG. With my own shelter I took 41, ie a reduction of
31.7% which sounds about right since I have 358% on my shelter
(basic shelter ranges 27-35). With a PPU casting capped holy
shelter on me I took 32 damage. Thats a 46.7% reduction. So it
sounds like neither of our theories are even remotely correct.
Unfortunately we didnt have a good testing piercing weapon,
explosive termi etc is hard to get exact values with so I didnt test
deflector but considering that PEs dont cap their blessed by a
long shot and the holy deflector will probably land around 45%+
reduction its still alot better to get it from a ppu.
Oh and its not a small benefit either, going from 41 to 32 thats
almost 1/4th less damage...
So, since neither mine nor QDs formula seems to be correct, does
anyone have a clue exactly how the foreign cast malus is
calculated?
nope.... just like that says, slef cast tl 25 shelter beasts foriegn cast tl 25 shelter or blessed shelter... however holy shelter beats self cast tl 25 shelter, but not by a whole lot... thats all i really need to know.
BTW, in all my tests (as recent as a week ago) shelter damage on self cast tl 25 shelter doesnt matter..... at least from 200% to about 400%.
im pretty sure that the difference between foreign holy shelter and selfcast TL25 shelter is small, Generally PE's are self sustainable during OP wars, their blessed def is better then foreign holy def, and the TL25 shelters almost the same as a foreign holy shelt. Just primes and heals all thats really needed. Not sure on specific numbers and percentages tho.
Originally posted by ~Drav~
im pretty sure that the difference between foreign holy shelter and selfcast TL25 shelter is small, Generally PE's are self sustainable during OP wars, their blessed def is better then foreign holy def, and the TL25 shelters almost the same as a foreign holy shelt. Just primes and heals all thats really needed. Not sure on specific numbers and percentages tho.
No, the difference is quite big, read the numbers in my first post.
The thing is, the widely accepted formula that 50% is taken off
the shelter/deflectors efficiency isnt true, the real numbers is a
quite a bit off from that, in the favor of the foreign casted spells.
Also a theory that I had that its the damage % you get on your
spell that is halved also isnt true because then the spell would be
a bit better. So anyone have any new theories?
maybe like all shelter have a set % of resit maybe they aslo have a set % of forieng cast % as well....like holy is 75 % self and 45 % foreing who knows ..
also make sure everyone is useing the same holy shelter to test i think Group and single target and difernt.....
to me it would make sense if say single target did 35 % and group did 45 % makeing group spells the better of the 2 im most circustances.
Originally posted by VetteroX
BTW, in all my tests (as recent as a week ago) shelter damage on self cast tl 25 shelter doesnt matter..... at least from 200% to about 400%.
Same results here from a test about 3 weeks ago: no difference between 250% up to 390% where I ended testing.
Originally posted by Fez
maybe like all shelter have a set % of resit maybe they aslo have a set % of forieng cast % as well....like holy is 75 % self and 45 % foreing who knows ..
also make sure everyone is useing the same holy shelter to test i think Group and single target and difernt.....
to me it would make sense if say single target did 35 % and group did 45 % makeing group spells the better of the 2 im most circustances.
It was stated that the foreign cast spells would be 50% less
effective or somesuch, question is exactly what it is that got the
50% malus, because its not the overall effectiveness.
How bout 2 PPUs with the same setup. Then try the dmg on one with his own shelter, then try it with a foreigncast one. Damn thats easy!
Shadow Dancer
24-02-04, 22:53
I thought the spell acted as it was 50%. For example, a 500% spell would act like 250% on someone else. That's the impression I got............
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I thought the spell acted as it was 50%. For example, a 500% spell would act like 250% on someone else. That's the impression I got............
Well, apparently thats not how it works, so, anyone has any
theories?
Originally posted by Rade
Well, apparently thats not how it works, so, anyone has any
theories? I don't have any theories offhand, but there is a way to test it I think.
Go to the test server, make a PE, and a PPU. Cap them fully, but make sure they have no points distributed.
Got to Neofrag so you can just exit to reset your points.
Now, at this point, the PE will have more HP than the PPU, so have the PPU put CON points into HLT until they get either the same HP or get it within a point or two.
Make sure you have no resists and no armor, distribute PSI and INT accordingly, then test away on both PPU and PE with/without shelter, etc.
--Stryfe
Vet said he did tests with PE shelters and that 200% or 400%, he took the exact same damage. If this carries over to blessed and holy shelters, that might be your problem right there. Damage % is supposed to affect shelters, but it is broken, and it stands to reason that if it is broken in self-cast, it is probably broken in foreign cast also, i.e. the 50% foreign cast nerf is broken too.
@Rade: I hope for your test you aimed shots at the same part of the body and repeated to be sure of the numbers. And the damage you did actually can be reduced by a shelter (modded guns..).
But I'm rather sure armor doesn't interfere here, 'cause reduction by shelters and armor/ resist are calculated after another.
I've done some calculations, but didn't come to anything useful.
Just to sum up:
Crahn Holy Shelter has 51-75% reduction.
You got 60 unsheltered, 32 with foreign HS, that's 46.7% reduction. It's less then the minimal value of the shelter, so it somehow must be a reduced value.
If 1/2 would be true, reduction should be 37.5 for a capped foreign cast HS.
Some more tests could help:
Try the damage on the PPU with a capped HS. Then try damage on the same PPU with a foreign cast capped HS on him.
It's funny. People completely ignore Vet in the posts he made on this subject, and then ignore me when I try to relay what his findings were. Maybe QD is right, 95% of this community are idiots.
i thought i remember reading that when they first nerfed forein cast shelters, it was going to be a 50% reduction of the self cast value...
im not sure what the real numbers are though, i just remember seing thato_O
@Ed: We did the tests with fire modded rayguns, which doesnt
hit body locations so always do the same damage.
Originally posted by Glok
It's funny. People completely ignore Vet in the posts he made on this subject, and then ignore me when I try to relay what his findings were. Maybe QD is right, 95% of this community are idiots.
I understood what vet and you wrote, but I couldn't figure out a useful formula, or at least one that comes close.
@Rade: I don't like them for testing.. the distance is always a problem.
Did you come to test the shelter reduction with PPUs?
Shelter strength was reduced 50% on foreign casted shelters. Ontop of that the %dmg you get on your shelter further modifies how strong the shelter is. In order of strength:
PPU Self
PPU Other
Other Self
Other Other
Only a hybrid might be an exception. Dependin on their setup, they could get high enough damage that their self shelter is better then a ppu's foreign shelter.
did you read the posts carinth?
Rade, if it's 50% as said here, ie: a 500% holy s acts as a 250% holy s foreign cast, then your test cannot prove or disprove that...
You need two ppu's & a combat char, exact same con setup and armour and the ppu's, and have one foreign cast and self cast.
holy shelter protects 58-75%, in the test we got 46.7%. If it
would act as having half the damage (ie 250% from 500% as in
your example) then we would have a higher reduction. If it would
have been the entire protection that was halved we would have
gotten a lower protection. IE it works in some other manner.
Originally posted by Rade
did you read the posts carinth?
No, I'm just repeating a previously already disputed argument to make this thread longer. Plus people like to reread the same argument over and over again. : )
I skimmed a lil bit too much, got the wrong impression. In terms of actual tested results, I've never ever understood how ppu spells work. Currently I am hybrid, I have 4 slot Holy Heal and a 5 slot Blessed Heal. My ppu is high enough that I get a decent dmg% on the holy heal and cap the blessed heal. Yet in testing them, they heal exactly the same amount. The blessed heal was faster to cast, which is why I'm using it now. That makes no sense to me, a higher level spell should always outdo a lower level spell. To make them overlap just adds confusion. If you want to make them overlap at the extremes, alright, but the overlap is much larger now. I could see a fully capped blessed spell being on par with a crappy store bought holy spell. The blessed shouldn't be better tho!
The oddity in shelter protection most likely involves this and/or is yet another bizzare outcome of kk's magic formulas which even they don't often know.
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