View Full Version : Another Idea to balance stealth.
ok, we all know that if your very close to a stealther, you can kinda see them.... my question.... why cant you shoot something you can see? my suggestion is to make stealthers targetable as long as you can see the cloud... meaning monks could "slect" them and tanks/pes/spies could close a recticle on them... as long as they could stay right ontop of them. In this way, stealth would truely be a sneak attack/spying tool instead og just a get out of death free card. people would also have to plan their escapes better, instead of stealthing just whever it suits them. Oh, and if your gonna say you ca hit a stealther with plasma, im just gonna say LOL... i empied an entie clip or Judge as a test into a stealthed spy, point blank standing still, did maybe 30 damage total... remeber his is point blank with him standing still, not on the run.
Dade Murphey
24-02-04, 10:34
I like this idea...I suggested something similar before but everyone just went on how you could hit them with plasma weapons/AoE :rolleyes:
ever occur that the stealther was kitted out for plasma. Odds on if they were standing still they didn't see you much of a threat to begin with.
Problem is if you have a targetting box people could discover you
by accident. If you didnt have a targetting box but could still be
shot at Im all for it tho.
Dade Murphey
24-02-04, 10:39
what I had suggested before was that the reticle closes at like half speed...could also add that if you go off very very briefly the reticle has to start over rather than picking up where it was at before when you move it back over
[edited for violation of the forum rules] the spy was a clan member, who i asked to stealth, then i shot into the cloud point blank.... who cares what his resitis were, the average tank takes in the low 40's from 1 judge burst, and this stealthed spy got "glanced" by 20 bursts stealthed, and took about 30 damage. A baboon coulda drawn the conclusion that it was a willing test, but obveously you couldnt.
Rade i considered that too, but maybe they could make it so you have to be within 5 meters to target them
juvestar15
24-02-04, 10:44
Maybe they should still be targetable if you have a lock on them before they stealthed. So once you lose the lock, you have lost them.
Make the reticule close etc but no big ass target box appears.
ppl useing normal guns should figure out that theres someone there, as in they can see the cloud so can target them by the reticule closing but its harder to see because of the fact theres no big hitbox around them. Another thing to this is you wont be able to make out their name/faction as their invisible (duh :p)
Only problem is that monks without a reticule wouldnt notice any difference \:
Originally posted by VetteroX
[edited for consistency]
Quit with the name calling.
I use stealth. It might be overpowered for PE's but it certainly isn't for spies. Without Stealth a spy is pretty much dead.
What I am sick of is people whining because they can't deal with a certain situation or fail to realise that prehaps they aren't as good as they think they are.
Bring an decent AOE weapon, and tag the stealther so you can follow them until they leave stealth.
But whine about it? When you can hit them.
Incidently did you try hitting him directly when not stealthed? Or doing AOE on them to get a baseline?
[edited for violation of the forum rules]
Im so sick of this bring aoe bullshit... try hitting a stealther with a rocket pistol or rocket launcher... its not gonna happen unless they are parashocked and dont have antishocks or have 30 ath 30 agil... fusion/ray cannos are also a joke, they do shit damage unless they hit very close, and u have to kneel to make the shot go anywhere near where you want it.... not doable.
Original monk
24-02-04, 11:02
i dont like the idea, there are many many many ways to kill a stealther, not because you cant hit em with a stupid judge that they are unkillable in stealth lol
this idea would only make the rifler-sniperspy's an easier target ..
i voted: NO
btw: stop trying to kill a stealther with a pistol vetterox, there are also cannons, cs, barrels, and ffcourse spells like multi-energybolt and multilightningbolt :)
Please show me where I insulted you? Kthx.
mal or moonie hurts stealther but since every dame tank out there only carries a dev they wouldnt know this ....
Originally posted by VetteroX
Rade i considered that too, but maybe they could make it so you have to be within 5 meters to target them
Works for me.
what's hard about following a stealther anyway? even untagged, provided you are in 1st person, following the blue cloud is usually failrly easy. i can't say i've ever had a major problem following a stealther.
Original monk
24-02-04, 11:09
i forgot to mention a first love :) ideal for raping snipers also :)
Originally posted by s0apy
what's hard about following a stealther anyway? even untagged, provided you are in 1st person, following the blue cloud is usually failrly easy. i can't say i've ever had a major problem following a stealther.
Thats true. But by logic, seeing that blue cloud running around means that you know their there, so why not be able to target them and cause full damage.
Shooting them causeing a 'AOE' hit with a plasma weapon causes a very very small percentage of the damage it would normally do. Stealth is by far the best defence in the game, and if your movement is erratic it is very easy to lose any ammount of people following the cloud.
Originally posted by Archeus
ever occur that the stealther was kitted out for plasma. Odds on if they were standing still they didn't see you much of a threat to begin with. Trnaslation: you suck.
Anyone can tell it was a willing test.
Anyway, i use a rocket pistol too, it does nothing to someone running full speed... rockets are too slow, pes have no other option. As a tank, read what i said about aoe cannons....
Unlike the majority of cowards in this game, its usually my tank and 1 ppu vs an army, or my pe and 1 or2 other pes vs an army... i dont attack 1 pe/spy with a ppu 2 apus and 3 tanks like mercs do.... so having a tank and apus aoeing the whole map isnt a n option
And ill say again, why dont you people who say you can kill a stealther try to kill my spy? just try it.... you wont be able to.
Original monk
24-02-04, 11:20
Originally posted by VetteroX
Unlike the majority of cowards in this game, its usually my tank and 1 ppu vs an army, or my pe and 1 or2 other pes vs an army... i dont attack 1 pe/spy with a ppu 2 apus and 3 tanks like mercs do....
i think someone is lieing he's ass off here ... we all know you gankrape noobies with a team of you, a ppu and a pe, sumtimes accompanied with some others but never witouth the ppu ...
with other words the majority of cowards you describe includes yourself mainly ...
but you will probably deny that ... altough i been r@ped myself by a team of you and some mates ... including freezing,DBing ppu ...
when i was actually helping youre clanmates leveling up in the chaoscaves (including healing, rezzurecting etc) ... now who's the petetic, whiney, noobie, coward here ??
idd -> you
lol, we had just had a battle at cycrow lab and we decided to go into the caves to clean out any garbage. You dmed me whining to be left alone, and for your poison beam back.... like you had any chance of getting it back? lol.
Originally posted by Original monk
i think someone is lieing he's ass off here ... we all know you gankrape noobies with a team of you, a ppu and a pe, sumtimes accompanied with some others but never witouth the ppu ...
with other words the majority of cowards you describe includes yourself mainly ...
but you will probably deny that ... altough i been r@ped myself by a team of you and some mates ... including freezing,DBing ppu ...
when i was actually helping youre clanmates leveling up in the chaoscaves ... now who's the petetic, whiney, noobie, coward here ??
idd -> you
yeh 1 or 2 sacraficial newbies to get them to cry over trade/faction chat if there arent any higher level chars out there, that gets alot of viable targets out to get a decent fight from, as their out for your blood their properly equipped etc, but even if theres one of you, because the call's gone out that theres a PKer there and its such and such name you get a hell of alotta people out tere for your blood, having that many people out after just you is a good blood rush, gets the adrenaline going that they are out there after you. Then you get a decent fight, till you take 3-4 down and they call even more out after you because they cant do the job on their own...
Original monk
24-02-04, 11:30
Originally posted by VetteroX
lol, we had just had a battle at cycrow lab and we decided to go into the caves to clean out any garbage. You dmed me whining to be left alone, and for your poison beam back.... like you had any chance of getting it back? lol.
hehe so you agree that i am right in my previous post, ty
and no i dont need my regular poisonhalo back ... i only have about 300 left of em ...
same as with weeman who teamed our chaoscavesteam and waited till i died to steal my belt ... he got a 3 slotted holy energyhalo, but left a zeroslotter in the belt luckely :P so i could finish the caverun, to then take some pisboosters and a 4 slotted halo with me :P
ow its soo fun having a decent constructor :P + the fact that i even make money making them spells thanx to me barter :)
or did ya really tought that i would defend myself attacking a group of a tank,ppu and pe with my tl 30ish poisonhalo ??
mhuahahahaha, you guys are such nibs unbelievable ... come on ask to duel me again ... then i say again that i dont waste my time on you ... NOOB
[edited for violation of the forum rules]you asked for your spell back, and you asked to be left alone, I belive you also said you dont wanna deal with what you do on the forum in game...[edited for violation of the forum rules]
please leave ingame stuff in game or take it to AIM and cyber
Originally posted by VetteroX
Trnaslation: you suck.
Your translation, not mine. You have got issues.
So what are the stats on hitting the same person unstealthed, and hitting AOE unstealthed? Are you saying that direct hits are getting automatically shielded by Stealth?
Vet to you everyone but yourself is a coward and a carebear so since we all know we are cowards and carebears why dont you stop flaming the forums with it?
As for stealth Im starting to think removal of stealth is the best solution to stealth as its downsides in the game are starting to out weight its benefits and thats not to say how irritating the forums have become because of it.
Oh and anyone who think stealth is the main or a major defence to spies shouldnt play spies and are probably snipe stealth pussies like most "combat" spies are these days.
Original monk
24-02-04, 11:46
Originally posted by VetteroX
the fact is, like everyone else on this forum that bashes me your a pussy in game... you asked for your spell back, and you asked to be left alone, I belive you also said you dont wanna deal with what you do on the forum in game... words are your only means of attack, your a coward.
i dont want anything from you, not the spell where i have 200 copy's left of and certainly no duel.. waste of my precious time
also i asked to leave me alone yeah .. its not fun when im powerleveling my nibchars that ya come ganking me, while i was teaming youre clanmembers btw ... it aint that difficult to kill a lowlevel ... certainly not when ya bring a tank, ppu, pe and i dont know what anymore else ... littlebit overkill no ?? but indeed it would be a humiliation if i owned youre ass again he :)
im smart now and dont help any cartels nomore ... first you help em out all afternoon, do business with them and then they come ganking you in youre back, pretty brave ... and selfdestructive ..
for the last: words are one mean of attack ... dont see the cowardness in it ... another mean i have is secret chars :) wich i cant give ya any explenation about cause of logical reasons :)
(one of em being that if i tell ya who i am ya come ganking me with a team of cartels anyway when im leveling in the caves ... lame ??? nah .......................................... :rolleyes: )
Vetterox,
I don't like your ideas. The thing is that you consider you should be able to get stealthers on your own. I can understand your frustation when they run away from you in stealth. But you have to consider that not anyone plays the way you do.
I play a spy on Venus.
When I face a group of runners including a tank and a PPU with true sight, I'm already in deep trouble, even using stealth.
It gives me a tiny chance to avoid the parashock and the CS shots.
The biggest nightmare of a stealther is the PPU.
They have all the tools to make stealth useless to escapre death.
You want to take stealthers down, bring a PPU along. If you want real challenge, tell him not to heal you, just to cast true sight.
I think this debate is wrong here.
Stealth is no god mode.
Stealth is not the solution to survive every fight.
Stealth is ok but you don't use the correct ways to handle it.
Originally posted by ~Drav~
Thats true. But by logic, seeing that blue cloud running around means that you know their there, so why not be able to target them and cause full damage.
Shooting them causeing a 'AOE' hit with a plasma weapon causes a very very small percentage of the damage it would normally do. Stealth is by far the best defence in the game, and if your movement is erratic it is very easy to lose any ammount of people following the cloud.
i don't think logic really has much to do with it. if we followed that, not too far, then why can't i target walls, trees or such? the system is purely pragmatic - i.e. you're not MEANT to be able to hit a stealter directly, only indirectly. it's simply how it's meant to work, since being able to hit the stealther with a direct weapon, even only at close range and vastly reduced damage, would negate the usefulness of the stealth to too great a degree.
stealth is balanced in that you can follow the blue cloud, period. that is also the fun part of dealing with a stealther. with practise, you can learn to outwit even the wiliest and "erraticest" (is that a word?) stealther. if they have massively long stealth then they're probably all gimped to hell, and therefore not a threat anyway - if so why even worry about killing them?
i gave up stealth a long time ago as a PE, and have never looked back, and i don't and won't play a combat spy (just not my thing), but i still see no reason to change it for others, at least not in this way.
the only reasonable change would be, perhaps, to make TC influence the "quality" of the stealth, so that just meeting the TC reqs of any stealth will make you considerably more "visible" than you are with current stealth, but increasing TC beyond the req will make the stealth more like the current visibility.
These 'bend the rules' are pissing me off.
The only reason for any of the French speaking Venusian to participate in those threads is just to give the view of a server on a specific set of rules which is being challenged by a player. Thing is, the challenges that are made to the rules are of this type:
1. Make an in-game experience which doesn't please oneself (i.e. impossible to kill the constructor stealther seen in the Wastelands)
2. Make an actual experiment out of it (facultative)
3. Write a big thread on the forum about how this is unfair and should be rebalanced / nerfed / made accessible to certain classes only.
4. Push, push, push...
5. Wait for the patch
Specifically on this one, stealth isn't meant to be 'targeted' although it can be hit with the right weapons, again AoE works for example. Some type of cooperation ensures that you can take a stelther down (again AoE or TrueSight).
The problem being Jerto is that majority of PEs start a fight then stealth around for a couple of hours not fighting being chicken shit which is where all the frustration and annoyance towards stealthers comes from.
Originally posted by Mr_Snow
The problem being Jerto is that majority of PEs start a fight then stealth around for a couple of hours not fighting being chicken shit which is where all the frustration and annoyance towards stealthers comes from.
except that isn't a problem because you can just follow them and kill them. a PE playing "chicken shit" with stealth will either be a very easy kill when you catch him, give himself away by healing or such, and generally be really easy to follow. are you honestly telling me that you'd follow them around for "a couple of hours" and not get bored or be able to kill them in that time? how is that runner even a threat? surely no more of an annoyance than an LE'd player.
So Mr Snow you're telling me that because of the mentality of some players, pepole here want the gamelpay to be adapted instead of trying and find solutions to handle these players behaviours.
I don't share this point of view and think that by putting together the correct competencies together, you could handle this without changes in the stealth features.
you said your a stealthing spy... your biased against a stealth change because you like constatly escaping death... well there was a time when there was no stealth, and people dealt with it. hopefully stealth will get a nerf and spies might actually die if they diecide to attack an enemy., instead of escaping 905 of the time.
Psycho_Soldier
24-02-04, 12:14
I don't have time to read all the replies to make sure no one suggested this idea, I doubt anyone did but if they did, sorry.
How about make it so they are targetable but show no highlighted target box. Only the rectile can be closed.
Originally posted by s0apy
except that isn't a problem because you can just follow them and kill them. a PE playing "chicken shit" with stealth will either be a very easy kill when you catch him, give himself away by healing or such, and generally be really easy to follow. are you honestly telling me that you'd follow them around for "a couple of hours" and not get bored or be able to kill them in that time? how is that runner even a threat? surely no more of an annoyance than an LE'd player.
My clan has recently changed server so we have levelling teams around so a chicken shit stealther is dangerous to them and if they give themselves away throught healing they just re-stealth instantly and run around until they can get a kill or kills on people.
Jerto the fact is that KK in their divine wisdom only gave an anti-stealthg weapon to a monk and a monk who cant kill de-stealthed runners if KK decide to give anti-stealth to all classes then fine keep stealth in but until they decide to balance the game so not to promote only one class over another this way stealth needs to be gone.
Cricket_Eater
24-02-04, 12:15
You can nerf stealth when KK gives us farther clipping range.
Dade Murphey
24-02-04, 12:19
Stealth is annoying...personally I'd like to see it gone...I think, if you can see the blue you should be able to shoot it...with anything...it's dumb as it is...I don't think your shots should be incredibly accurate...I don't think the reticle should maybe even close fully...but the ability to hit something you can obviously see with whatever weapon you use should be there...I mean for fucks sake, if I were to take an uzi and spread fire at a stealthed person, it would stand to reason that some of the bullets would hit...I think it's funny that there have always been good spies out there that can hold their own...but now since stealth has been in the game for a bit you get all these people saying "with out stealth spies would be dead" that's bull shit...people are just lazy and co-dependant now
I hate most of vet says, but I fully agree with him on this one :p
(Damn, did I just say that?) :D
Also...I like Psycho_Soldiers suggestion there
Okay, being a stealthing spie i must say stealthers get killed easy.
When there is a tank he's usualy faster and can follow the cloud, a ppu can db so you light up like a christmastree and when you unstealth you can't imediately restealth.
So what i usualy end up with is eitehr being paraed dbed by a ppu, or they take out my legs once i unstealth and i'm soooo easy to track then when i restealth.
On top of that, plasma does hit when you are stealthed and i died from that too, escpecially when my legs are out.
That is using stealth 1.
With stealth 2 it's a bit better as u have more time to escape.
I think vetterox should stop whining about how he can't kill everyone he sees.
I don't whine all day about how spies end up dead more than any other class do i?
Originally posted by VetteroX
you said your a stealthing spy... your biased against a stealth change because you like constatly escaping death... well there was a time when there was no stealth, and people dealt with it. hopefully stealth will get a nerf and spies might actually die if they diecide to attack an enemy., instead of escaping 905 of the time.
Escaping death? I do die occasionally. Without stealth I would die everytime, and I would probably just lom over to total trades skiller, as that would all the spy would be good for.
Do your test again, and try the same person without stealth direct and indirect PE and spy.
More toys to combat stealthers (which require more diversion and less cookie cutter characters), but not nerf.
When there is a tank he's usualy faster and can follow the cloud, a ppu can db so you light up like a christmastree and when you unstealth you can't imediately restealth.
As will poison, para weapons, fire weapons light up a stealther. Or for fun a PPU commands a Soul cluster to attack a stealther (before they stealth) and it will keep on giving even when they are stealthed. In first person also the cloud is so noticable, for some reason it doesn't show up in third person.
Originally posted by VetteroX
you said your a stealthing spy... your biased against a stealth change because you like constatly escaping death... well there was a time when there was no stealth, and people dealt with it. hopefully stealth will get a nerf and spies might actually die if they diecide to attack an enemy., instead of escaping 905 of the time.
I can tell you that I have my share of dying.
But should I wait for the guy to finish me or should I stealth, eat a kit and keep on fighting ?
No-one would choose the first option.
Anyway that doesn't change anything to what I've just said. You don't use the proper means to kill stealthers if you think that stealth use has to be changed.
I can ensure you that some people on Venus know perfectly well how to handle stealthers.
Originally posted by VetteroX
you said your a stealthing spy... your biased against a stealth change because you like constatly escaping death... well there was a time when there was no stealth, and people dealt with it. hopefully stealth will get a nerf and spies might actually die if they diecide to attack an enemy., instead of escaping 905 of the time.
vet - can you please explain why it is that you can't follow these spys while stealthed? even i can do this, and i'm well aware that you are a finer player, by probably a long way, than myself. so if i can do it, i cannot understand why you can't - especially when you have a PPU with you.
the only things i can think of (and please don't take this the wrong way) is:
a) you can't be arsed to follow them, which is fair enough, but no reason to call for nerfs;
b) since you are regularly taking on "an army" with you, the PPU and perhaps one other, as you said, then the stealthers may actually pose a tactical problem for you after a time. again, this is an extraordinary situation you put yourself into, and more power to you for prevailing more often than not, but again no reason to call for nerfs.
you cannot always win, and there is no reason why you should be able to kill absolutely everyone - particularly those stealthers who clearly do not wish to engage you properly. that's just the way it is sometimes.
Dade Murphey
24-02-04, 12:23
Originally posted by s0apy
vet - can you please explain why it is that you can't follow these spys while stealthed? even i can do this, and i'm well aware that you are a finer player, by probably a long way, than myself. so if i can do it, i cannot understand why you can't - especially when you have a PPU with you.
I dunno about vet...but on my screen if a stealthed person gets more than maybe 10feet from my character it's very hard for me to see them...they're already an incredibly pale blue...I can maybe see one for a second if they go running past my guy very closely...but beyond that I'm fucked
Originally posted by VetteroX
you said your a stealthing spy... your biased against a stealth change because you like constatly escaping death...
I guess VetteroX you also are biased... and as Jerto says, it is difficult escaping death with stealth too.
Man everyone of these solutions to killing stealthers requires atleast 2 people 1 of them being a ppu its the reliance of people in this game on ppus that really annoy me, people should be able to kill each other without a ppu there to hold their hand and db and para for them.
TBH a practiced stealther wont die to a solo runner unless they are extremely unlucky or make a stupid mistake and in this game any 1 runner should be able to kill any 1 other runner in pvp combat, with the exception of ppus, otherwise the game isnt balanced.
@Archeus If you cant survive as a spy without stealth you shouldnt play a spy, your just one of the people who gives spies a bad name as stealth pussies.
Shit, meant to send that as a PM O_o
Ignore me.
I do like the idea of targettable IF you can see the cloud (thats what.. about 5 - 10 m? in first person view, maybe 2 feet in third :rolleyes:)
I wonder if its codeable though....
I dont like it aswell , u could just get ur cursor in the area and u could locate the stealther very fast....this would affect spies also so no....Or maybe just make such change to stealth 1 and make stealth 2 unusable for all exept spy (like spy requirement only)
Cricket_Eater
24-02-04, 12:31
What's up with the new found hate for spies? We already suffer from a crummy max view distance (for snipers like me anyways) and not being able to attack while stealthed. We're obviously overpowered according to all dev/cs combo tanks.
Originally posted by Dade Murphey
I dunno about vet...but on my screen if a stealthed person gets more than maybe 10feet from my character it's very hard for me to see them...they're already an incredibly pale blue...I can maybe see one for a second if they go running past my guy very closely...but beyond that I'm fucked
playing 1st or 3rd?
i play 1st, and have reasonably high (though not maxed) detail settings, and i find it very easy to follow stealthers.
As a spy myself, we do need stealth to be able to compete. It is balanced in my opinion, as we cannot do anything other than eat medpacks while stealthed.
If we nerf stealth then we need to increase damage on rifles so we can penetrate other classes superior armour/defence.
What you have to remember is that spies have next to no armour so any damage done to us hurts. Yes, I can imagine it being annoying that you think you will kill a spy only see him stealth and escape. But we are not very good 1 to 1 without it....
But then to us its annoying when we shoot another class of player only to find our weapons barely scratch the surface of their armour ;) or bounce of the shelter....
And yes you can follow the blue cloud as normally when a spy gets hit our ability to move is reduced to a crawl. So even a 0/2 spy fully ladened with junk can keep up with us....
nerf the armour/shelter I say!!!!!!! ;)
Dade Murphey
24-02-04, 12:35
Originally posted by s0apy
playing 1st or 3rd?
i play 1st, and have reasonably high (though not maxed) detail settings, and i find it very easy to follow stealthers.
1st and 3rd...doesn't matter...I have my settings (cept vegi detail) the majority of the way up...it's just always a barely-there light shade of blue that I can't follow after they're 10-15ft away
Hm all my details settings are high i used to be able to track down stealthers (the cloud) pretty smoothly but lately i cant see the cloud if the stealther even gets 10m away from me, any1 know what could be the cause of that?
i didnt read the whole thread but i dont like the idea because if u make em targetable while stealthed there will be alot of shit caused by lag so many ppl will die even not being in range with the cloud
u all know the effect when u stealth but some shots hit u still while being stealthed so that sucks
it ok as it is right now, tanks can kill stealther with area weps and shit... and there is holy true sight sanctum
in my eyes there is nothing to balance
Originally posted by Cricket_Eater
What's up with the new found hate for spies? We already suffer from a crummy max view distance (for snipers like me anyways) and not being able to attack while stealthed. We're obviously overpowered according to all dev/cs combo tanks.
Not hate for spies but for spies who snipe then see somebody on local and instantly pull out an obliterator run 2 zones then come back and rince and repeat.
Personally I play a pistol spy which is kinda now fucked because of the devourer versus tanks but meh still the most fun class to play.
ok i again make a challenge to anyone who says stealthed spies are easy to follow: I challenge you to follow and kill my spy. I bet you cant do it. i can foloow slow spies, dumb spies, and spies whos legs ive shot out, thats it... if they have decent speed, and have anti db, shock, and poison drugs, you simply cannot catch them.
Originally posted by Mr_Snow
@Archeus If you cant survive as a spy without stealth you shouldnt play a spy, your just one of the people who gives spies a bad name as stealth pussies.
I play a Rifle spy. Apart from X-Ray/Energy and whatever belt I have on at the time every other attack hurts big time (belt helps survive 1 maybe two shots). An APU can drop me in one hit, if they get that hit.
I live with this penalty which is why I attack from distance and the majority of my kills the people I have killed never knew it was me. Its a different fighting style, that requires thinking so you can get those shots off to kill and escape.
I am sure there are people who think, hey run up take a few shots from a rifle and run. I scout the area, looking for spots that give me good view while coverage as well (When I take a shot I drop from view so they can't see where I am). If they aren't dead by the 3-4th shot then I move to another spot. If someone actually gets to my local position it is a good chance I will die.
However a bit like PPU'ing, because the playstyle is different people seem to think it is lame, because "Hey why isn't he in range fighting me mano o mano?".
Originally posted by Archeus
I play a Rifle spy. Apart from X-Ray/Energy and whatever belt I have on at the time every other attack hurts big time (belt helps survive 1 maybe two shots). An APU can drop me in one hit, if they get that hit.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Man if an apu drops you in 1 or 2 hits you have worse resists then a roach.
My spy can take atleast 5 HL (old damage) hits and could take 3 FA stacks when I wasnt wearing inquisition armour.
How about trying to use your con points rather then putting them in health or leaving them unspent.
As for sniping I have no problem with it it just when the dude snipers are sniping finds them the runaway and dont pull a disrupter or RoG to finish them off thats what my problem is with snipers today.
Kinda agree with mr snow on taht one.
Sniping is fine, its a tactic and an advantage I expect to see riflers using. Otherwise there wouldnt be much point to having those kinds of ranges on them.
Whats fucking irritating is when you get one run up to your face with an RoG and you manage to take him down to 3/4 health, stealths and fucks off. then comes back and does the same thing over and over and over...
thats the annoying bit.
Id say no to a target box, yes to being able to hit stealthed runners, why not just increase the chance of hitting when aiming at the cloud? I dont like the idea of a target box as it would allow a person to scan the horizon and find you easily or scan an area so even if they havent noticed you yet they could use it to see you. Allowing all weapons to hit them when reticle over the cloud may work however, perhalps give burst weps a slightly less chance of all shots hitting etc but make it so they are easy enough to kill. As a note the last time i tested it was a while ago but a clip of a cs was fired at my stealthed pe at point blank range and i think one blob from one burst was all that hit, not really good enough.
Originally posted by VetteroX
ok, we all know that if your very close to a stealther, you can kinda see them.... my question.... why cant you shoot something you can see? my suggestion is to make stealthers targetable as long as you can see the cloud... meaning monks could "slect" them and tanks/pes/spies could close a recticle on them... as long as they could stay right ontop of them. In this way, stealth would truely be a sneak attack/spying tool instead og just a get out of death free card. people would also have to plan their escapes better, instead of stealthing just whever it suits them. Oh, and if your gonna say you ca hit a stealther with plasma, im just gonna say LOL... i empied an entie clip or Judge as a test into a stealthed spy, point blank standing still, did maybe 30 damage total... remeber his is point blank with him standing still, not on the run.
the spy was me, i have as yet no resist specced because im leveling and minimal armor on, i had PA2 for the DEX.
i have 0 fire, energy. so even if the judge Vet used was xray the energy should still have hurt me.
he unloaded a full clip and the total damage was 52 HP, the only thing the judge did was move me about 2 inch to the left.
Originally posted by Archeus
ever occur that the stealther was kitted out for plasma. Odds on if they were standing still they didn't see you much of a threat to begin with.
incorrect read above, on a side note, do you have a vehicle solution to this problem :rolleyes:
•Super|\|ova•
24-02-04, 14:28
Hmmm... I didn't read all of the posts but anyways I think the only problem in this one would be that the stealthers should then be able to use weapons in close distance also. Otherwise it would be pretty unfair (which means unbalancing :p )
Originally posted by Elric
Whats fucking irritating is when you get one run up to your face with an RoG and you manage to take him down to 3/4 health, stealths and fucks off. then comes back and does the same thing over and over and over...
thats the annoying bit.
Yea I agree on that, however I don't agree on nerfing stealth to deal with it.
How about medkits give drug effects if you used while stealthed (when stealth breaks). make it progressive.
Originally posted by •Super|\|ova•
Hmmm... I didn't read all of the posts but anyways I think the only problem in this one would be that the stealthers should then be able to use weapons in close distance also. Otherwise it would be pretty unfair (which means unbalancing :p )
Not really as they get the advantage of being hard to see, the disadvantage of being able to be hit, a fair tradeoff. However it is another reason why giving a hit box would prob be too much but increaseing the chance of hittting might be ok.
Ozambabbaz
24-02-04, 14:38
[edited for violation of the forum rules]
How bout we wait til the devourer is nerfed then talk about this?
With the damage as it is on the devourer, I don't want every tank to be able to burn me to a crisp while stealthed.
Original monk
24-02-04, 14:44
Originally posted by SynC_187
How bout we wait til the devourer is nerfed then talk about this?
With the damage as it is on the devourer, I don't want every tank to be able to burn me to a crisp while stealthed.
i might be wrong but i tought a dev couldnt kill you while stealthed, altough i havent tried yet ..
maybe when he allready has some stacks on you yeah ... so he can follow the burning so you are noticed and the oponent can kill ya with a cs or sumthing, but i tought a dev had to be locked on to do damage ..
i could be wrong tough cause i havent tried, anyone tried it ?
Originally posted by Original monk
i might be wrong but i tought a dev couldnt kill you while stealthed, altough i havent tried yet ..
maybe when he allready has some stacks on you yeah ... so he can follow the burning so you are noticed and the oponent can kill ya with a cs or sumthing, but i tought a dev had to be locked on to do damage ..
i could be wrong tough cause i havent tried, anyone tried it ?
Sorry m8.
Was talking about what would happen if this idea went ahead.
no fucking way,
PE's have already had stealth more or less taken away, and spies have already had there stealth nerfed, and ecspecially for tradeskill spies etc stealth is there only way to get away from some situations, u can already target them in certain ways so just leave it at that ffs and stop making the weakest class in the game easier to kill
Afaik the dev has no AoE or splash damage effect so shouldnt effect stealthers atm.
I really dont think putting a target box on stealthers would change much really so I dont see a point to it.
What I think they should do is add an anti-stealth eye that has a dex requirement (monks have true sight even if buggy) that has longer range effect with the higher the dex req.
Originally posted by Mr_Snow
Afaik the dev has no AoE or splash damage effect so shouldnt effect stealthers atm.
I really dont think putting a target box on stealthers would change much really so I dont see a point to it.
What I think they should do is add an anti-stealth eye that has a dex requirement (monks have true sight even if buggy) that has longer range effect with the higher the dex req.
I agree to a certain extent. Maybe give people a way to see stealthers, but only when they are within a certain range.
If the stealther is 20+ metre's away then they are not necessarily an immediate danger.
If the range was too high, then it would make stealthing completely useless.
Originally posted by Mr_Snow
Afaik the dev has no AoE or splash damage effect so shouldnt effect stealthers atm.
You can shoot stealthers with them. I've been hit a couple of times with them.
Thats why i didnt say a range it would have to be tested to balance it before setting it.
Originally posted by cRazy2003
PE's have already had stealth more or less taken away,
o_O Dont know what pe's you know but i know very few if any that were effected by the changes, most pe's have 66int for med energy belt, stop exagerating, kk never did enough to remove stealth from pe's. If pe's coudnt stealth the bitching would perhalps go down, so perhalps put a class requirment on it and finish this once and for all.
Stop asking for nerf when there is something you don't manage to kill.
Find proper ways to do it and don't hesitate to ask for help if needed.
This is a multiplayer game, so don't complain when there is something you can't do solo. Just team.
Original monk
24-02-04, 15:18
Originally posted by SynC_187
what would happen if this idea went ahead.
okie, then i understand yeah :)
lol, now i feel dumb :P
but then you are right yeah :)
lol... vehicle solution to the problem, that made me laugh. Archeus and his vehicles, lol...
why shouldnt you be able to kill stealthers solo? i really cantbelive there are people who cant compromise, and have stealthed weakened a bit..... too used to being immortal.
The vast majority of PEs have 66 int so as I said then it doesnt make life harder for PE stealthers and still doesnt raising the int to 70 would of made life hard on PEs not 65.
Tradeskillers always have and will run the risk of being ganked when not protected by clan mates and obliterator dropped down to 60 seconds but the TC was dropped too to compensate so it was hardly a nerf considering you are only visible for like 3 seconds before you can restealth.
Originally posted by VetteroX
lol... vehicle solution to the problem, that made me laugh. Archeus and his vehicles, lol...
why shouldnt you be able to kill stealthers solo? i really cantbelive there are people who cant compromise, and have stealthed weakened a bit..... too used to being immortal.
I'm not immortal and I use stealth.
I can kill stealthers solo with my non capped spy.
So you should be able to do so.
I am not used to being immortal, I'm pretty often killed.
The thing is that nerfing stealth is not justified.
Reading your posts, I have the impression that you want it nerfed cuz you can't find a proper way to kill a stealther.
Too bad, try again.
Originally posted by VetteroX
lol... vehicle solution to the problem, that made me laugh. Archeus and his vehicles, lol...
What vehicle solution? For stealth? I didn't offer one? What do you be reading?
Originally posted by Archeus
What vehicle solution? For stealth? I didn't offer one? What do you be reading?
was a joke Stig made a page or so back.
Read the whole thread.
Can anyone explain the logic behind the fact that you can see a stealther close up, and you know where they are, yet you cannot hit them directly?
Like it or not, it is silly that you can see someone, point a gun at them at point blank range, and not hit them.
Even better, melee- I have a big sword, I know you are standing in front of me, yet I cannot damage you at all...
How about reworking the old freezer weapons to make stealthers targetable or undo their stealth? Might be the worst idea ever, but at least just another idea ;-)
I hate to steal one of Vet's phrases, but anyone who thinks stealth should be left as a mechanism for getting out of the shit needs to be punched in the face. Just look the word up in a dictionary...
And yes this would go some way to fixing the problem, recon etc would still be easy as no one would be looking for the stealther, but escaping wouldn't be.
Lifewaster
24-02-04, 19:20
I dont get this easy to follow stealthers thing ? Is it reliant on lag? display settings? What ? First or third person ?
All I know is when the blue mist moves more than a foot away, it dissappears and it doesnt come back.
And its not just me, I've seen upwards of 20 ppl trying to catch a single stealther in TH corridors , and yet he can still escape.
IMO lag is the biggest prob, even unstealthed PPl jump about the screen half the time.
The fog effect is based on where the camera is, so in 3rd person you lose track of them more quickly when they are in front of you but are more likely to see them behind or to the sides.
Also if you have graphics turned way down (I forget which one) stealthers become pretty much invisible.
VetteroX,
Let me try to give you a fair and honest response to your suggestion which started this thread ... here goes ...
1) For some people, the way they use stealth, what you suggest would probably be fine. This kind of person vanishes the moment they feel threatened, having taken little to no damage. They are out harrassing their targets with as little risk to themselves as possible, sniping away and then disappearing at the first hint of trouble. So your idea would provide a meaningful element of added risk and danger ... and that would probably be a very good thing. I, myself, am guilty of doing this sometimes during Op fights, but not very often - mostly i fall under #2 below.
2) Then there are stealthers like me, who focus on Op wars. To be effective in a fight you cant just ditch out at the first hint of trouble. You often have to hang in there and be nearly shot to shit in order to do your own share in the fight. You bail out when waiting any longer means you're dead. Other times you get so focused on sniping that you fail to realise someone has jumped you and in an instant you are nearly dead. In both cases you need to select the stealth tool, then activiate the stealth tool - both of which take precious seconds during which you often fall down dead anyway. Once stealthed, you obviously gotta get outa there and heal up. With your suggestion, being still targetable while stealthed, i suspect i would be killed almost all the time from having so few hit points left already ... meaning i might as well throw the stealth tool away for all the good it would do me.
So, for #1 i think it would be just dandy as a counter to stealthing snots who cause trouble in hunting zones. Gives people a chance to clobber them, but the stealthers still have a chance to get away although perhaps being shotup good - which is just fine to my mind.
But for #2, these guys are [usually] bugging out only when the alternative is sure death, so all you would be doing is making it very likely that they do die ... thus making stealth mostly useless for them ... which i dont agree with. In general, I have no problem with stealthers being a pain in the ass to kill, because i find other classes (ppus and super buffed people in op wars) an even bigger pain in the ass to kill - but i can deal with that and am not hollering for nerfs. Whereas making #2 stealthers a certain kill, or nearly certain kill, just seems wrong.
So i do not see how to balance your suggestion. It seemingly would be fine for #1s, but way too harsh for #2s. This is exactly the challenge in balancing a complex game ... change one thing to fit a certain purpose and you may be changing things too harshly for others without really realizing that.
Spook
I usually am against all changes to stealth but the idea of being able to hit stealthers as long as they are a certain distance away is something close to acceptable for me. Only if the reticle doesn't close all the way making you miss more. The biggest problem I see with this is the people who don't need reticles... and the fact that it would prolly take a bit to code so I don't see them adding it with so much other things borked in this game.
I still think stealth is fine, last night we had a stealthing sniper at Gab mine, he used an exploit to hide inside the UG model making him untargettable, well a tank came and AoE'd him out and I followed him while he was stealthed, he eventually just logged while stealthed since he couldn't lose me... he was annoying but he was a really weak player, couldn't kill anyone and had to use exploits to even be a danger. It's like people who kill you while you are hunting and proclaim themselves uber :rolleyes: they are annoying but pretty much a non issue, my clan mates come rez me and I continue on...
AHH THIS MAKES ME MAD! i made a post with this exact same idea and a few others and got 0 replies... and only 20 views. just becouse some1 with high post counts says somthign they get tons of replies. but ya i agree. i hate you all o_O
sorry, but plasma and AOE can kill stealthers.
If you dont carry either, tough shit.
I Carry a napalm or judge incase a stealther is ever about.
1 star :(
Lifewaster
25-02-04, 04:16
Originally posted by Estabin
I still think stealth is fine, last night we had a stealthing sniper at Gab mine, he used an exploit to hide inside the UG model making him untargettable, well a tank came and AoE'd him out and I followed him while he was stealthed, he eventually just logged while stealthed since he couldn't lose me... he was annoying but he was a really weak player, couldn't kill anyone and had to use exploits to even be a danger.
See thats the very thing thats the problem, despite all your skill in being able to actually follow a stealther , plus an AOE tank to help you , you could not even kill this one single little annoying "really weak player" and he was even able to log out in front of your eyes. All because he had stealth.
Think about it in the hands of a "decent" or even a "good" player, how can you sit and describe what just happened to you and yet suggest stealth is fine ?
/shrug
Originally posted by Lifewaster
See thats the very thing thats the problem, despite all your skill in being able to actually follow a stealther , plus an AOE tank to help you , you could not even kill this one single little annoying "really weak player" and he was even able to log out in front of your eyes. All because he had stealth.
Think about it in the hands of a "decent" or even a "good" player, how can you sit and describe what just happened to you and yet suggest stealth is fine ?
/shrug
I used that example to show that no matter what you nerf, people will find ways to exploit the system, the guy wasn't an issue... I get killed while hunting a lot but I don't come on the boards and start wanting a nerf for this and that. I haven't seen one explanation on how stealth imbalances the game yet, stealth doesn't decide OP fights, I would be open to a suggestion for a counter to stealth but leave stealth alone.
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