View Full Version : Anyone tested OP -fights with simulated S/D selfcast?
After reading some posts that was about S/D being selfcast I wondered if anyone has tried to OP-fight where they tried to create just that situation? Like two teams with all classes, no turrets and where PPU`s weren`t alowed to use their S/D on other people just themselves.
As I think it is a good idea that would solve a few problems and also make NC more fun it would be usefull to do if it hasn`t been done allready. I would be very interested to hear all the different classes experiences in such a fight, but in particular a PPU`s experience to this as so many claim they would be useless if such a change was implemented.
Anyways I would gladly volounteer to participate in such an experimenting if anyone else is up for it.
ZoneVortex
23-02-04, 07:18
i'll volunteer on Pluto with me APU
:D Kewl, then we are two. Now all we need is two PPUs.:p
Anyone else up for some experimenting?
I'd rather see the holy heal nerfed than s/D made selfcast only.
Holy firestorm..
will ******** everyoen without shelts
someone please tell me what the point of this is? for the PPU to stand there like a tool and just DB and para everyone?? retarded idea imo.....Ill be sniping on the hills
Originally posted by extract
someone please tell me what the point of this is? for the PPU to stand there like a tool and just DB and para everyone?? retarded idea imo.....Ill be sniping on the hills
The idea is to find out if its more fun and balanced. Some people thinks S/D selfcast is a good idea. Others think it suck. Why not try to find out?
Oh and if it comes to that people want to test this, someone might actually care that you are sniping. That would indeed be retarded.
SorkZmok a weak heal can be used by the ppus to see if that is better.
well, a long time ago we used to fight OP wars without PPUs at all. and yes - it WAS much more fun.
QuantumDelta
23-02-04, 11:22
Extract - not helpful.
Sork - nerfing holy heal doesn't BALANCE Anything just nerfs PPUs.
Use Holy Heal if PPUs come to this event.
PPUs will have PLENTY Of use at an event like this if you have GOOD PPUs there like PK they will still have a large say in the sway/tide of the battle, just not as monumentally large as before.
its one of the most idiotic ideas ive ever heard. The use of s/d isnt just for an opwar, its for levelling aswell. And if you think its a good idea, just take the example of low level apu's/ppu's going to aggies. How many times havent a deflector saved a life or a shelter when going firemob levelling on a melee tank?
sure take away sd, but then give us 6 seconds rezz again.
QuantumDelta
23-02-04, 11:25
Originally posted by CarniFlex
its one of the most idiotic ideas ive ever heard. The use of s/d isnt just for an opwar, its for levelling aswell. And if you think its a good idea, just take the example of low level apu's/ppu's going to aggies. How many times havent a deflector saved a life or a shelter when going firemob levelling on a melee tank?
sure take away sd, but then give us 6 seconds rezz again.
The rezz exchange was one of the points.
What's more, and, I will say this again, because people seem to be too thick headed to understand it being said FIVE TIMES.
PVM IS NOT A VALID ARGUMENT SINCE KK CAN EASILY ADJUST MOB DAMAGE AND HP AS THEY HAVE DONE SO IN THE PAST.
Yeesh :rolleyes:
Originally posted by CarniFlex
its one of the most idiotic ideas ive ever heard. The use of s/d isnt just for an opwar, its for levelling aswell. And if you think its a good idea, just take the example of low level apu's/ppu's going to aggies. How many times havent a deflector saved a life or a shelter when going firemob levelling on a melee tank?
sure take away sd, but then give us 6 seconds rezz again.
Jupp leveling and killing mobs is to hard without a ppu:rolleyes:, and if some mobs is too hard to kill without a team bigger than 2 it will mean the end to us all.
Boring *yawns* :o
Holy heal foriegn cast is the ONLY way forward IMHO, that can be semi tested by a PPU using a blessed heal at a fight, see how that goes.
The exmaple would be that if a player stands there with full buffs on and S/D and has a blessed heal running, he can STILL die by any enemy hitting him, thus we have balance even when a PPU is put into the mix.
Removing S/D will just fuck everything up, so please QD let this dog sleep.
My point was that we could do some extensive testing on all the different solutions and perhaps we could lay some of them to rest if they didnt work.
QuantumDelta
23-02-04, 11:42
Originally posted by YoDa-UK
Boring *yawns* :o
Holy heal foriegn cast is the ONLY way forward IMHO, that can be semi tested by a PPU using a blessed heal at a fight, see how that goes.
The exmaple would be that if a player stands there with full buffs on and S/D and has a blessed heal running, he can STILL die by any enemy hitting him, thus we have balance even when a PPU is put into the mix.
Removing S/D will just fuck everything up, so please QD let this dog sleep. Sorry anima but until I see a LEGITIMATE and REAL and LOGICAL argument against it I will not see your point nor your whine.
Because if I go back to the Celt Self Cast S/D Thread your post(s) were revealed as whine ¬.¬
Unthought out and unprofessional.
Sorry.
PVM is a stupid arguement tbh as any class can solo caves and fire mobs aswell as warbots and even if most people find these too strong they can have their strength lowered accordingly.
TBH something should be arranged on the test server to test this and somebody, LTA I think, started a thread on the test server forum but it seems to of been ignored.
Making holy heal foreign cast would fuck things up more then s/d self cast only as with self cast it would mean you need more skills but with holy heal foreign cast you need more ppus which isnt the solution.
Sorry anima but until I see a LEGITIMATE and REAL and LOGICAL argument against it I will not see your point nor your whine.
Because if I go back to the Celt Self Cast S/D Thread your post(s) were revealed as whine ¬.¬
Unthought out and unprofessional.
Sorry.
Well QD you have your opinions on this topic, and i have mine, obviously we both view eachother as whiners to it, mainly because we don't agree, which is fair enough.
Making holy heal foreign cast would fuck things up more then s/d self cast only as with self cast it would mean you need more skills but with holy heal foreign cast you need more ppus which isnt the solution.
Ok lets take the example of what Cleo put in this thread, Holy Firestorm, now lets use a typical situation, outpost has been hacked, your underground with your clan m8's and you know that above ground the enemy is waiting for you with barrels at the UG entrance.
Now which would you prefer, popping above ground to die in seconds coz you got no S/D, or having a S/D on and taking a lot of dmg coz your PPU('s) is trying to keep people alive with a blessed heal strenght heal?
Of course the only survivers of this test would be the PPU's "who now have to try and ress their entire team" or the PE's who will just stealth away and maybe hack a enemy op to get back at em for losing.
Sorry drifted into a whine there "QD :)" but you see my point, i do understand tbh where QD is coming from, trying to balance this game out and reducing the effect a PPU has when coming into play at any battle, my goal is the same, but we have different ways of viewing the outcome with our goals.
My way i think would help people survive but make them NOT godlike from PPU's. "and i now have 2 PPU's to play, on saturn and pluto, so yes if you think its a nerf, then nerf holy heal by making it foriegn cast power"
Nerf me.
Man how did you hold ops back in the day with no UG?
You ran from another OP, or another gr near your op being attacked all you have to do is the same thing again and I dont think the UG gr thing should of been put in in the first place since it was obviously so exploitable with AoE.
When things are changed you adapt, if it makes life slightly harder for a better game its something you should be willing to accept.
Anyway there is a reason for the test server and its to see if stuff like this is viable but nobody seems willing to organise a test for this.
QuantumDelta
23-02-04, 12:14
Nerfing heal was something I originally saw as a concept...the only problem with it in terms of "balance" is that it focuses wholly on the PPU :/
Now, it's true, it will damage the PPUs ability to survive ..and considering what I've survived, I think that is a note worthy comment, but, when you look at how much the PPU can do in terms of damage, it's fairly balanced...
Anyway...
A nub PPU will run to someone with fire/energy attacks coming onto them and shelter first them, a pro will heal them first...
In a way it supports your argument at the same time as mine, since, priority wise heal would always come above S/D...
More to the point the self-cast S/D is about *class balance in op wars* not really PPU usefulness...
Since;
Foreign Cast S/D equals;
Nerfed PE in combat.
Spies being the second weakest class by far.
Tanks being lower (in a world where damage wasn't bugged by a patch) than APUs by about 10-20% battle effective performance and APUs being top of the pile because they have incredible offence and great defence.
That's all Self Cast Theory is/was aimed at...
If we're both trying to achieve the same thing in a way neither of us can be whiners but I'll be honest and ask you what's wrong with self cast that holy heal fixes?
Apart from nerfing the PPU themselves? (As for PEs stealthing away....erm...I hate stealth whores too....)
juvestar15
23-02-04, 12:19
Originally posted by Mr_Snow
You ran from another OP, or another gr near your op being attacked all you have to do is the same thing again and I dont think the UG gr thing should of been put in in the first place since it was obviously so exploitable with AoE.
Attacks from the UG suck, you are always dead when you jump out. Lag, syncing and your char being vulnerable while you sync. It really sucks, running from other OPs was better.
QuantumDelta
23-02-04, 12:20
Originally posted by juvestar15
Attacks from the UG suck, you are always dead when you jump out. Lag, syncing and your char being vulnerable while you sync. It really sucks, running from other OPs was better. hehehehe, that's just cuz of where you live :p
Also depends on how many people are in the zone above a german clan mate of mine stealthed up from the UG at regant a few weeks ago had a long sync and was dead before he synched in, so server distance isnt the only factor to this
Prodigious
23-02-04, 12:38
im no neocron expert but this is usuch a great idea (and i dont mean the s/d selfcast thing)
HES NOT ARGUING ABOUT THE POINT OF IT HE JUST WANTS TO DO A TEST!!!! A TEST WITH THE IDEA TO SEE WHAT ITS LIKE
Go get a dictionary people, look up the word test.
i honestly cant see why so many people are so against it
a question tho, ppu's can still holy heal you right
so ppu's are basically gonna become the first targets in OP wars? the PPU will still be a big base of the team...
so you are gonna want to wipe out any PPU's.
Think about people, whos gonna win (if equal skilled fighters)
a group of 5 of each class(apu, spy, tank, pe) and 1 ppu casting DB, parashocking etc
or the same with 3 ppu's
ppu's are still gonna be damn important, running round ressing etc.
lets face it, when it comes to s/d now all ppu's do now is buff you before fight, if you fight a team without a PPU you only need the 1 cast before its all over, thats how big a difference they make at the minute.
the more i think about it tho the more i think its a good idea, i dont know why KK dont just patch the test server, i mean it is a test server after all(again look up the word test in the dictionary everyone)
KK should really allow us to place doors and more automated defences in OP's... defences that cannot be replaced until the battle is over, but that prevent UG camping and ninja hacking.
This would be sooooo easy and would make soooo much sense that it's impossible that KK ever does it :\
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
More to the point the self-cast S/D is about *class balance in op wars* not really PPU usefulness...
Since;
Foreign Cast S/D equals;
Nerfed PE in combat.
Spies being the second weakest class by far.
Tanks being lower (in a world where damage wasn't bugged by a patch) than APUs by about 10-20% battle effective performance and APUs being top of the pile because they have incredible offence and great defence.
WHOA THERE, Hang the fuck on 1 minute.
Right... lemme think this out.
INSTEAD of putting it that way QD, Why dont you turn it around to when theres no foreign casting =
PE top in combat, full stop.
PPU still unkillable, but not as effective, needed or wanted due to lack of foreign casts.
Tanks, powerful damage wise, but still not matching defense of a PE (due to lack of shelter, slower speeds with gun out, etc etc..)
Spies. Still fucked.
APU's. Well.. no shelters = dead APU. About as effective as a close range spy. Which to say the least, Isnt. (not including those who drug up the ass, not a viable option for most normal people)
...
So, could this be a biased opinion I'm seeing? A proxy boost to PE's across the board in all combat, putting them back on top in ALL situations?
surely not...
Yea... I must be weird to think that there is no balance in ppu's having extremely defences and being unable to kill a roach... I always thought in the passive psi user as the mind control monk, mind attacks, croud controler, healer and skill enhancer... without super-insane defence/utter-crap offence.
That must be me that I'm weird.
Actually elric it would actually make PEs useable at ops and tbh the tanks and apus you know must be shit if they couldnt solo PEs before the damage fuck up and how would it make ppus defunct holy heal will still be needed aswell as combat buffs damage boosting and if para isnt gone para shocking, man some people read what they only want to read.
juvestar15
23-02-04, 13:13
Tanks do nice damage. PEs not so much so.
PEs have a better defense.
That's pretty much equal isn't it?
how long have you people been around?
Personally I dont want to see a regression back to beta and first month of retail, back when it was almost PE city.
PE's are not supposed to be top of the league tables. technically no one is. thats what balance is.
IF changes like that were made, when thinking about it, would overpower PE's in comparison to all the other classes (again).
Tanks can kill PEs easily unless the PE stealths the same goes for apus against PEs and tanks and tanks against apus, spies can generally win against apus and tanks but PEs are harder because of their capped heal but as a whole the classes are fairly balanced if ppus are left to the sidelines.
MjukisDjur
23-02-04, 13:44
bring down the power of group S/D and force people to use that :eek:
Originally posted by Mr_Snow
Tanks can kill PEs easily unless the PE stealths the same goes for apus against PEs and tanks and tanks against apus, spies can generally win against apus and tanks but PEs are harder because of their capped heal but as a whole the classes are fairly balanced if ppus are left to the sidelines.
No, Tanks cannot kill PE's.
Im talking about REAL pe's, not random Joe running about the street.
Go ask Vet last time he lost one on one to any tank. Or any other class for that matter....
Originally posted by MjukisDjur
bring down the power of group S/D and force people to use that :eek:
Now thats some good thinking. As it is those spells are pretty much redundant anyway, give them a proper use and balance the power they give appropriately.
Self cast, I do not like the idea of. Fixing and balancing the amount of defense they give i do.
That there that you mention is like a middle of the road compromise thing, I like it.
Devils Grace
23-02-04, 13:53
yea op wars lasting 30 secs, wooow that would be fun
juvestar15
23-02-04, 13:59
Originally posted by Elric
how long have you people been around?
Personally I dont want to see a regression back to beta and first month of retail, back when it was almost PE city.
PE's are not supposed to be top of the league tables. technically no one is. thats what balance is.
IF changes like that were made, when thinking about it, would overpower PE's in comparison to all the other classes (again).
Wow one PE can beat all tanks he fights(which isn't every tank), i guess that settles it. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Devils Grace
yea op wars lasting 30 secs, wooow that would be fun
30sec OP wars kicked ass!
Damn, i miss the early retail days. Lucky if you got an op war that lasted 10minutes, Hectic frenzied and exciting. It was brilliant. I Personally cant be arsed with all this 3 hour long seige, turret dropping, stealthing, undying OPwar bullshit. Bring back the excitment somehow!
For now I'll stick to random PvP and PP scrapping.
Originally posted by juvestar15
Wow one PE can beat all tanks he fights(which isn't every tank), i guess that settles it. :rolleyes:
FFS!
The first name that oppped into my head that could back up me argument and you moan.
Jesus, what do ya want, a fuckin list?
:edit:
Oops, meant to edit, sorry bout double post
juvestar15
23-02-04, 14:15
Don't get snotty because i don't agree with you. I'm not moaning either. I'm saying PE vs Tank is a good fight.
How would YOU, Elric, get tanks and PEs at the same level so the duels are even?
I think what Elric meant was people with skill "vet" those are the people that show the balance to the game, normal average everyday PE's that moan coz they die a lot should just train more and learn better setups and such, its how the top guys got there.
I just can't see the option of removing S/D to remove the godlike defense put on others by a single PPU, its because people don't die with a ppu up their arse that brings this arguement to the fore.
Imagine a world where you still can't kill that PPU without a large force or HAB's, but imagine that same world where those with PPU's up their arse can still be killed even with S/D and Holy heal on them, imagine those same people now having to use skill instead of laughing coz they can't die.
Now you would have balance, everyone is able to die, real risk is there in each battle, even with a PPU.
How do you get that world, not by removing self cast S/D, no that won't work, coz it would inbalance things with PE's being the only class to be able to self buff and do dmg, strange as it sounds they would become the new "hybrids"
If you removed teh PE out of the game for this one argument, then i would 100% agree with self cast as it wouldn't matter for the other classes either way, but because we have that one class who can do such a thing, it would not be balanced.
If those of you think PE's are not a viable class at a op fight, well lets look at other ways to improve that without screwing over the other classes, lets not nerf but boost in some other way.
We all know the PE is one class that hacks the ops, maybe there should be some other form of skill that is need that a PE can do, but saying that I know a few PE's are very good at op fights, taking down APU's nice n easy.
PPU:
S/D self cast 100% Strenght
S/D Foriegn cast 50%
Holy heal self cast 100%
Holy Heal forieng cast 50%
I do truely believe this would work, so test out both theories on this, see which works better and people have the most fun with, it doesnt reduce a PPU's job, but brings more balance to the game, might make people think a little too.
I would test this out myself but have never used test server and never intend to.
Devils Grace
23-02-04, 14:20
Originally posted by Elric
30sec OP wars kicked ass!
Damn, i miss the early retail days. Lucky if you got an op war that lasted 10minutes, Hectic frenzied and exciting. It was brilliant. I Personally cant be arsed with all this 3 hour long seige, turret dropping, stealthing, undying OPwar bullshit. Bring back the excitment somehow!
For now I'll stick to random PvP and PP scrapping.
NOPE
NOPE
NOPE
NOPE
NOPE
NOPE
they didnt
and thats why i hate CS, if u die at the begining u have to wait 10 min to the end game to play again
and im not paying for that
im simply saying that removing foreign cast shelters and deflectors WOULDNT help that situation. It would just make PE's overpowered in comparison to the other classes even when PPU's are there. Which is what I was talking about.
Actually i dont even know why I'm bothering. I honestly wouldnt give 2 shits if PPU's were removed from the game completely (actually, I would, Id be happy about it) This game IS NEVER EVER GOING TO GET BALANCED. Its impossible as far as i can see with the huge variations in character classes and possibilities.
Its just not going to happen.
anyways, Im just trying to make the point that I do not believe that making S/D selfcast only would solve the problem. I leave it to those more creative than myself to think of. I'll still do what i can to see if theres any holes in the idea's though.
One way to balance things. Remove skills and regulate defenses and damages across the board :p
That would be balanced wouldnt it. Everyone equal is the epitome of balance. Wouldnt like that though would ya :rolleyes:
:edit:
@DG
They were more fun :p
More frustrating at times, but always fun. I just find the dragged out Zerg rushing camping style of current op wars extremely tedious. (yes, I know the above has a double negative, I'll just assume you all have the intelligence to see my point)
Dribble Joy
23-02-04, 14:48
Originally posted by Elric
WHOA THERE, Hang the fuck on 1 minute.
Right... lemme think this out.
INSTEAD of putting it that way QD, Why dont you turn it around to when theres no foreign casting =
PE top in combat, full stop.
PPU still unkillable, but not as effective, needed or wanted due to lack of foreign casts.
Tanks, powerful damage wise, but still not matching defense of a PE (due to lack of shelter, slower speeds with gun out, etc etc..)
Spies. Still fucked.
APU's. Well.. no shelters = dead APU. About as effective as a close range spy. Which to say the least, Isnt. (not including those who drug up the ass, not a viable option for most normal people)
It is the CONCEPT that is being tested.
PvP dmg for each class can easily be adjusted, and if this were to come into affect, would HAVE to be changed, APU dmg would have to increase to suit the type of character they are supposed to be, shite defence and insane dmg.
PEs and tanks are allready pretty much balanced, even with the insane dmg the CS and dev do. PEs would probably have to loose stealth, or make them really gimp to use it.
//edit:
I don't think this test will be fair within the current patch. With the dmg of weapons all over the shop, stealth still being to easy to use for high lvl tech combat users and all the other problems.
PEs atm would own the fight, which is wrong, it's not what the self cast s/d is meant to do. APUs would get frazzled by CSs and Devs all while they try and shoot back with their unintentionally nerfed HLs.
The test should (imo) be postponed till after the next patch, where hopefully they will have fixed the dmg fuckup. Otherwise the current imbalances will only serve to distort the idea that they are testing. An unfair test.
Elric, a good tank takes down a very good PE 3 out of 5 - I would say that sounds pretty balanced to me.
As for the test idea, I took part in one OP fight some time ago where there was only 1 PPU and it was awesome. It lasted even longer then I expected. Pretty amazing how fights change with the lack of PPUs. Go ahead, give that test a try, might be the best OP fight you will ever have ;-)
Originally posted by MjukisDjur
bring down the power of group S/D and force people to use that :eek:
Thats a nice one. Make the normal s/d selfcast and make the grp s/d foreign cast, up their reqs a bit so their shite hard to cap. That way the PPU can still hold his own and be a nice asset to the group. He just looses some of his powers to make his grp uber.
This can also be done for grp heal I think.
No "real" nerfing needed.
Originally posted by Ferabukoo
Holy firestorm..
will ******** everyoen without shelts
And the droners and snipers who have been doing recon at the op will be able to take out the apus in a few hits ;)
Imo all this will do is make fights quicker which can be a good or bad thing, all chars can have s/d on them atm, a tank with it on still has more protection than a spy or apu with it on, it just allows battles to last longer, the only thing i see unbalancing about ppus atm is holy heal, slap a holy heal on most chars and they are invincible untill it runs out...
I am fustrated now. Read before you answer, PLEASE:
No, Tanks cannot kill PE's.
Im talking about REAL pe's, not random Joe running about the street.
Go ask Vet last time he lost one on one to any tank. Or any other class for that matter....
Then the tanks SUCK. PEs imo are maybe 5% stronger in 1on1 atm I think, that would have to be adjusted.
yea op wars lasting 30 secs, wooow that would be fun
I'm sorry but that is probably the most stupid comment I have ever read. We would have 6 sec rezz back PPUs with full power can rezz in 6 sec even while under fire. We would have no charging APUs running in acting like they cannot die cause they have the über defense while SD is on. They would be a SUPPORT class. OMFG imagine....
How do you get that world, not by removing self cast S/D, no that won't work, coz it would inbalance things with PE's being the only class to be able to self buff and do dmg, strange as it sounds they would become the new "hybrids"
You obviously think PEs would be overpowered? Tanks can beat PEs, spys can beat PEs at good range, APUs can beat PEs. People would just have to play their class instead of just getting buffed and running in shooting no matter what class they play.
Atm tanks get buffed and run in and starts shooting.
PEs do the same
APUs do the same
Spys do the same
If SD was self-cast only we would have tanks and PEs in close combat, APUs in mid-range combat and Spys in long-range combat. Like it was meant to be.
Imo all this will do is make fights quicker which can be a good or bad thing, all chars can have s/d on them atm, a tank with it on still has more protection than a spy or apu with it on, it just allows battles to last longer, the only thing i see unbalancing about ppus atm is holy heal, slap a holy heal on most chars and they are invincible untill it runs out...
Rezz reset, it will not make the fights shorter, it would make people more cautious not to die though.
A tank has got more defense with SD on than an APU yes but by how many %? 5? 10?
Rezz was nerfed for a reason :rolleyes: bringing it back might allow sheilds to be selfcast only and make battles last just as long but it will just bring more problems.
A tank with sd can take ALOT more punishment than a apu with s/d, proportionally its the same difference as before the s/d, if it comes from the same ppu, as the ppu will add the same amount of protection onto their base protection.
So all we will have is battles where people drop fast but reappear constantly, and this doesnt solve the problem of the clan with the most ppus wins, if anything it make it worse. A clan is forced to need alot of pus to fight or the other clan will be able to constanly rezz and heal where the clan with only one or two ppus will struggle managing their fighters.
By nerfing holy heal, ppus are still useful for their shielding abilities, and heals are always good but as you only need to shield ones every few mins a clan can fight an op war without needing an army of ppu's. If a clan does have enough ppus to have a heal on people constantly then with the nerfed heal it should still be possible to kill someone once the heal is one them, thus making ppus less important on a battlefield but still usefull.
Also if rezz is un-nerfed they should make it cause a self anti-buff as noone should be able to rezz under fire.
These are my oppinions, i have a capped ppu on saturn and a base 99 psi (damn loms) ppu on pluto, so i do play a ppu alot and i can accept that in many ways they are overpowered.
QuantumDelta
23-02-04, 16:24
That's a semi-reasonable compromise I guess KuifJe.
Elric read Xizor/Dribble Joy/Lucjan's comments...
X/Lucjan = Good Tanks imo...
Lets put it this way if I saw Vet PE vs Vet Tank and Vet PE wasn't allowed to Stealth I would put real world money on Vet Tank winning.
Add A PPU to both teams and I would bid every single worldly possession I had, on Vet Tank winning.
Cyphor Rezzing under some fire should be allowed especially if S/D was removed from the foreign cast list.
Tanks can't take A LOT more fire than APUs with S/D especially if that APU has been setup to work with a PPU (some people do).
The difference is about 2-4% and 100 HP depending on peoples setups.
That's not a lot, especially with holy heal running around.
Oh yea, and running around, APUs can, HC Tanks can't, MC Tanks need point blank range.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
snip...
Add A PPU to both teams and I would bid every single worldly possession I had, on Vet Tank winning.
snip...
I'd be quite disapointed at the loosing teams PPU tbh 8| :p
I like the idea of S/D selfcast only.
at least i am willing to test it cause right now you lose every op war without a PPU =/
and i dont understand those people who say that the PE will be overpowered then, cause they are balanced without a ppu.
Clownst0pper
23-02-04, 17:32
Try MC5 without a shelter..
Then lets see how much of you want this implemented, what a fucking stupid idea.
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
Try MC5 without a shelter..
Then lets see how much of you want this implemented, what a fucking stupid idea.
as said many time before, this isn't about PvM its about PvP, cause mob damage can be easily ajusted !!
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Cyphor Rezzing under some fire should be allowed especially if S/D was removed from the foreign cast list.
I disagree, this would mean ppus would still be too overpowered, if a rezz goes back to the 6 sec cap, then a ppu still has his god mode during rezz and the rezz will happen so fast that theres not much anyone can do, so if clan A brings 6 ppus and clan B brings 2 clan B will find it almost impossible to win even if they are more skilled and have the same numbers as clan A will have enough ppus to constantly rezz, and with a 6 sec rezz it wont matter how many times you kill them, the enemy they will keep coming back. bringin a extra ppu to a fight should give you just as much of an advantage as bringing a extra tank/spy or pe, rezz was nerfed imo so when you see it happening on the otherside of an op for example you can get there and have a chance of stopping the ppu before the rezz finishes.
uh i say it again^^
i`m all up for sd selfcast only....it would simply seperate the good ppus from the nub ppus ;)
if i could play nc imo i would join you to test with my tank...i can only come online this weekend tho :I
.cy
/€ and sex @ les :p
Devils Grace
23-02-04, 17:49
U GUYZ are completly forgetin those u like to play a ppu
ppu is hard to play, very hard to keep all the team mates alive under fire...
the prob is some clans or some ppl do not have a ppu, why should those u have, completly remove them from fun and game
i dont know what to think really
me i like big last fights, not just some quick ones, and if some got the bad luck to be killed at the bigining u will be bored tro hell
QuantumDelta
23-02-04, 17:55
DG.
Learn to read.
FYI Quite a few of the GOOD PPUs support this.
Cyphor - Learn to read.
I said SOME FIRE.
Rezz of 9 seconds is enough.
As for rezzing under fire now?
Heh, you can do it just like you used to do it, just need two PPUs instead of one, big fucking woop.
Clown - LEARN TO READ PVM IS NOT A VALID ARGUMENT.
Jesus this community is thick headed ¬.¬
Originally posted by Devils Grace
U GUYZ are completly forgetin those u like to play a ppu
ppu is hard to play, very hard to keep all the team mates alive under fire...
the prob is some clans or some ppl do not have a ppu, why should those u have, completly remove them from fun and game
i dont know what to think really
me i like big last fights, not just some quick ones, and if some got the bad luck to be killed at the bigining u will be bored tro hell
It will still be hard for a ppu to keep your team alive even without S/D! so those who like playing a ppu will still have fun, but it wont be like now, where you get your S/D and heal and run into the enemy without to worry dying.
And fights will last long enough without S/D, people just have to think a bit LOL
right now, people without a ppu dont have any chance to win a fight against a team with one !
My clan and some friends has recently run a test 6v6 (equal classes) on the thing, and godamnit it works.
YES thats it dribble joy!, if selfcast is enforced then op fights won't be a whirlwind of tanks/monks all blasting away with no risks, assuming APU is unerfed each class will resume its role, as tank will become the best close fighters, apus for mid, and spies for long while pes remain flexible but not best at any field.
right now, with everyone s/d all classes just end up close combat, not caring about their defensive capabilities, and the PEs get the end of the stick because they have less offence and their defence is neutralised because it doesn't get an advantage sinces it psi is equally powerful and thats what keeps it equal to other classes in the first place
also eldric do you have a clue wtf u are talking about sorry to get angry, but from what I heard vet is a very good pvper you cannot judge from one player who is at the top of the game, what about the rest of us "get some skills" argument is ridiculous and old because we all know down the game is still 60% based on statistics and systems, and no hc tanks/pistol pe with self buffs have an EQUAL chance of winning agaisnt each other.
And god no, APUs are getting unerfed soon, and spies DO NOT SUCK after selfcast is enforced ... WHY? duh...because snipers and droners can deal far more long range damage then now, APUS will benefit equally as support fire, they cannot fight directly, but if they play support they can deal massive damage, even during the test it proved that they dealt alot more damage, but cannot come under direct fire, while the tank has to play a role of a damage taker now, and less stress is on the PPUs, while they are still important.
I have to say this is a better idea then it sounds, because people cannot see the fact that they will be doing as much damage, because everyone has no shields, and suddenly the whole defensive capability of your characters come to play, tanks can no longer do that mindless crap, and PEs are just like weaker faster tanks.
I do emphasize that the disadvantage appears to be that holy heal becomes terribly important, and if its anything the PPU actually becomes more important and require way more skill. So still the more PPU the better, only now you need more, but they are less significant now which can be a good point, as long as you have 2-3 its ok.
Try it out, you won't regret it.
QuantumDelta
23-02-04, 18:32
So the first proof is in...
... QD doesn't pimp things that are wrong.
Learn that well :p
However, I will say again this is the most major step in balancing op wars, it's NOT the ONLY STEP...
Other tweaks would need to be made, to pvp, and pvm, along with this change.
Psyco Groupie
23-02-04, 18:36
hmmm ... well if this happened you'd just get billions of low tech PE's with 70 odd str ppu'ing themselves and ppus dmg boosting for em and rezzing occasionally
Originally posted by Rai Wong
also eldric do you have a clue wtf u are talking about sorry to get angry, but from what I heard vet is a very good pvper you cannot judge from one player who is at the top of the game, what about the rest of us "get some skills" argument is ridiculous and old because we all know down the game is still 60% based on statistics and systems, and no hc tanks/pistol pe with self buffs have an EQUAL chance of winning agaisnt each other.
Coming to that point, well, yes.
If your going to balance something. Dont you have to take the class at the peak of its abilities (or player obviously, in this case) and balance using them as example?
To me that would be the sensible way to do it. thats all.
eg. Xantor ? = best spy (or so i hear, I'd say Eggs or Kurai only as I know them and seen them in action)
Vet, QD, Kyle? = best of PE
so on and so forth. I'm sure you see where Im comin from now.
AND I did not say "Get some Skills" either, and that was not what I was intending to infer either.
The point of balancing the classes should be that Pistol PE's have as much chance against a tank as a tank against a Pistol PE (given the situation its in obviously, if a RIFLE SPY goes up against a Tank, if its balanced, then given the spy has the range that the class is supposedly the ideal class for, then he should win. That is how I see balance. )
Yawn. Just got up. Nightshifts really screw up my day-rythm.
Anyways as DribbleJoy said its a test of a concept. If some weapon is screwing up such a test by beeing all to powerfull the group can only choose not to use it. Its not about etching the truth in stone just to get an indication if this is something that could balance the situation and/or make NC more fun.
One op-fight I was at where I brought my rhino and the attackers was semi-outside of the op you would think I could do some real damage. I had a tank to gun for me and also gunned a little myself. Between me and the entrance of the op I had a clear los. The impact I made was very little. I might have killed 2 people, but I think they where spies. The rhino as pretty good aim and very good rof doing more than a capped SH. Thing is my targets ran in and out of the op making me get off maybe 2 or 3 shots before they ran inside again. With people being buffed and healed I could hurt them a little, but I never got close to killing one of the characters that matter. Meaning apus, ppus and tanks. I was firing from a little distance. Now if a rhino cant effect an op-fight more than that how is a spy or pe going to affect the situation? I would imagine a SH spy could get of a few rounds, but it would be futile. You need to get right up in the face of your target and hammer it constantly with high damage to be able to kill it. For doing this you need someone who can take the beating and who has a high damage output=APUs and tanks.
As for you who say that ppus would be useless in op-fights without being able to S/D your friends I dont believe this is true.
What I sure feel that S/D makes PE`s and spies pretty useless in op-fights, but I might be wrong.
As for you who fears 10 second op-fights. Taking your tactics from op-fights today and putting them in a S/D self-cast scenario, of course its not going to sound good. I hope that a change like this would bring a little more fluidity and movement to opfights.
Well reading that last reply about how it tested i can now see some reason behind this arguement, i could imagine a op fight where instead of people rushing in and to hell with defense, people now really thinking it out and maybe some real AoE and tactics to get the enemy down, hmmm......................................
I just wanted to quote some things ive read.
Thats a nice one. Make the normal s/d selfcast and make the grp s/d foreign cast, up their reqs a bit so their shite hard to cap. That way the PPU can still hold his own and be a nice asset to the group. He just looses some of his powers to make his grp uber.
This can also be done for grp heal I think.
No "real" nerfing needed.
You can't say its not a nerf in such a way, first of all you ask for S/D self cast, now your saying added to that you want group buffs lowered in strenght, and also holy heal group, so in effect 3 so called nerfs.
Just wanted to view that one.
LEARN TO READ PVM IS NOT A VALID ARGUMENT.
Even i can see this, although it would require a lot of work on KK's part, yes PvM doesn't come into play here, its like the old school hybrid monks, they was great for PvM, a really good class to play, but was overpowered somewhat with PvP, and its that balance that we are talking about here today, NOT PvM.
ok now ive lost the part where someone mentioned holy heal's power, but i gotta say if S/D was removed and hundreds of other stuff brought in line with it, yes a PPU's work would be just as hard, trying to pin point a tank running around like a headless chicken can be hard enough, couple that with him running around inside a group of 5 people, 4 of them enemy and sometimes those ppu's will heal the enemy by mistake "would laugh my arse of at that :lol: "
I would like to see more tactics brought into fights, instead of zerg rush crap we got now, old days where it was a stand off for a few mins outside the op while inside they stood their ground, AoE flying in both directions and so on, APU's were rarely seen up front in those days, neither was PE's, tanks were in their right role, taking the dmg and dealing it out, while the rest sat behind and thought out the best battle plan as the fight went on, coz we all know the best plans go to pot when the fight is on and someone does something not expected ;)
I wanna test this out myself, both setups, one without a S/D and one fight with a blessed heal casted and S/D allowed, then see for myself what it would be like, of course playing both my chars in each fight, PPU/Melee tank.
Hmmmm im thinking now.
One last quote from QD:
Jesus this community is thick headed ¬.¬
LOL well there we go, did it take you this topic to know this? :p
The biggest problem i can see with making s/d self cast is hybrids. They could have some of the best resists around (excluding ppus) and would still be able to deal out large ammounts of damage, making them a lot stronger than the rest of the classes.
Of course this would depend on the setup, some have blessed shelt/heal etc. and holy halos, some have pe style buffs and beam spells (it's even possible to have pe buffs and run cast HL and FA, but that takes a DS/top quality spells etc. so wouldn't really be a widely used setup). Any of these setups would be able to dominate the battlefield in op wars since they have both offensive and defensive advantages. Granted tanks,pes,spies,apus and ppus may be balanced but hybrids would once again be overpowered IMO.
QuantumDelta
23-02-04, 19:07
Slowly one by one they begin to believe...soon...very soon my precious we will balance you...
erm seriously though everytime this topic comes up someone joins the self-cast theory-train, I realise I'll never get friendly or scratch to do that because they're so thick headed but if most of the rest of the community agrees on this I should suspect KK will take it under advisement, the only reason I can see KK not doing this for is because it requires several other adjustments to other classes/things throughout the neocron world.
TBH if you're looking for balance this is just about the only way to go about it...
If you're looking to nerf the PPU heals are the way to go...heh, your call really...
edit;
Narf - currently (this patch) hybrids have less offence and close to PE defence.
I see nothing unbalanced about them currently regardless of what the conditions.
HOWEVER this change might actually make the "duel viable" hybrids, viable on the battlefield itself.
Though I think some spells would need tweaking (or at least to be checked to see if they do or not).
IIRC, on Jupiter there have been some NO-PPU fights, and people had fun ('cause all classes were involved). I can't remember the patch though, and they probably used PEs for sheltering :D
But at least, it was without a PPU.
How about some big clans trying a fight with explicit "no foreign cast s/d" rules? Maybe it has a bad comeout (what I don't expect), but you'll at least have a completely new combat experience.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Cyphor - Learn to read.
I said SOME FIRE.
Rezz of 9 seconds is enough.
As for rezzing under fire now?
Heh, you can do it just like you used to do it, just need two PPUs instead of one, big fucking woop.
Clown - LEARN TO READ PVM IS NOT A VALID ARGUMENT.
Jesus this community is thick headed ¬.¬
Im not too sure who or where you've fought in the past few months but ive yet to see a ppu that can rezz with a apu on him (debuff) or a few dev tanks etc, if by some fire you mean some sniper taking pot shots then i consider that an annoyance rather than under fire.
Also everyone is allowed an oppinion, why do you take such offense to people who disagree with you? Just because you differently from me doesnt mean you're right, same with the rest of the people your flaming. I have read what your posting i dont agree with it however.
Originally posted by Cyphor
Also everyone is allowed an oppinion, why do you take such offense to people who disagree with you? Just because you differently from me doesnt mean you're right, same with the rest of the people your flaming. I have read what your posting i dont agree with it however.
QD is not the only one missing any useful arguments against the remove S/D idea.
@QD: Well like I said, it would depend on the setup. Hybrids using blessed buffs and halos may not be overpowered damage wise, but pe buffs and beam spells probobly would be. Bear in mind hybrids would be able to damage boost as well, which would bring them very close to the damage output of apus, but with a lot more protection giving them a clear advantage, especially so if they're using rare apu spells. It's also very hard to adjust the spells to match them. If you lowered apu spell damage, apus would lose their higher damage edge over some classes and if you lowered their ppu defense, pes would be affected badly as well. Thats also taking into account beam using hybrids can antibuff too, again giving them an edge.
@Cyphor: It is possible to ress ppl under that kind of fire you just need to work as a team with other members there. Say an apu and two dev tanks were shooting a ressing monk, just get another ppu to heal and rebuff the ppu and get some damage dealers to distract the tanks while he resses, simple.
Originally posted by der Ed
QD is not the only one missing any useful arguments against the remove S/D idea.
Im disagreeing with the adjusting of rezz sugested, i dont see a prob with the removal of foriegn cast s/d i just dont think it will cause ppu's to become any less important if rezz has its cast time lowered at the same time.
The problem for me is the effect ppus have on fights, if your clan wants to take an op, the ammount of ppus you have atm is something you must consider, that and the number of hackers...when was the last time you heard
"How many pistol spies do we have online? none ok better wait before op waring..."
All classes should have an equal effect on pvp, imo if rezz is un-nerfed at the same time shields made self cast only ppus are still too important in op-warfare. Nerfing holy heal will fix alot more probs than making s/d self cast only, i dont disagree with s/d idea just think there are better ones. Why not try an op war with ppus just using blessed heal? Still kicks ass just not god mode style...
Edit: @ DrNarf however a ppu wont last long to the devs without his own buffs, the moment 2 dev tanks turn up and a apu the ppu breaks rezz as he should, otherwise he will die if the tanks and apu are any good.
Originally posted by Elric
Coming to that point, well, yes.
If your going to balance something. Dont you have to take the class at the peak of its abilities (or player obviously, in this case) and balance using them as example?
To me that would be the sensible way to do it. thats all.
eg. Xantor ? = best spy (or so i hear, I'd say Eggs or Kurai only as I know them and seen them in action)
Vet, QD, Kyle? = best of PE
so on and so forth. I'm sure you see where Im comin from now.
AND I did not say "Get some Skills" either, and that was not what I was intending to infer either.
The point of balancing the classes should be that Pistol PE's have as much chance against a tank as a tank against a Pistol PE (given the situation its in obviously, if a RIFLE SPY goes up against a Tank, if its balanced, then given the spy has the range that the class is supposedly the ideal class for, then he should win. That is how I see balance. )
I see where you are coming from, I thought you meant if a good PE can kill alot of tanks then its unbalanced, but taking your example the best Tank can easily take on the best PE on equal terms...
Originally posted by DrNarf
but pe buffs and beam spells probobly would be. Bear in mind hybrids would be able to damage boost as well, which would bring them very close to the damage output of apus, but with a lot more protection giving them a clear advantage, especially so if they're using rare apu spells. It's also very hard to adjust the spells to match them. If you lowered apu spell damage, apus would lose their higher damage edge over some classes and if you lowered their ppu defense, pes would be affected badly as well. Thats also taking into account beam using hybrids can antibuff too, again giving them an edge.Shhhh, damnit... ¬¬
About hybrids using rares... ain't gonna happen. I have tried numerous times to work out a setup that would allow that, and even with DS, it just doesn't work. And now that I have reached beam modules on my currently pure apu, the APU required to get any kind of decent damage and rof is pure mana pool gimpage.
edit: I case that doesn't make any sense, I am just plain not spending the points now that I have reached my planned level of apu, they are sitting there until i cap, and then all shoved into ppu. I hate LoMing. So I have a really good idea what my offence will be like.
For balancing you definetly need to consider the best players as Elric stated. Balancing using the avarage Joe makes no sense at all as the best players will throw that supposed balance down the hill.
No clue why QD did changed his mind on that or there was just a simple misunderstanding.
argh, havent been able to post in this thread all day, norton fubar'd my IE
Originally posted by Rai Wong
I see where you are coming from, I thought you meant if a good PE can kill alot of tanks then its unbalanced, but taking your example the best Tank can easily take on the best PE on equal terms...
aaah, but heres the trick :p
there is no equal terms!
think about it. You'd have to balance based on that specific classes / weapon types area of expertise.
that ok?
now.
How do you balance a Tank against a Spy when the spy is 400m out of range of the tank and can take potshots freeely?
thats an ideal SPY situation where the spy should win, no questions asked. of course that works vice versa for short range (tank ideal ranges).
it gets difficult from there really...
Each class would have to be individually balanced so taht they are superior over each other class under theyre own set of specific ideal conditions.
Bloody confuses the hell outta me to be honest... but I do know how it should be done.
Not how to do it.
if you know wat i mean... .... .... urm... yea...
Where is the problem Elric?
Now take the PE between these two. Lets compare it to the tank:
-offense, his damage output lower
+speed, he is faster then tank
-defense natural
+defense, he has better defence, but it is limited in time due to the use of PSI
+heals better
On top of that the PE _can_ raise his damage by damage boosting, but this also can be counter measured by the tank.
For me the balance of PE and tank is good. All it takes is to find the difference in combat style between classes and differ their offense and defense (like it is done on the PE) starting from the basic combat class which is the tank.
All I can say, give NC without PPU buffs a try to see that it is actually quite more balanced then people think.
maybe Im just over-thinking it.
When I think balance, I'm thinking across the entire board, not specifics. everytime i think i figured one bit out, thinking of the effect on the other class contradicts it...
Ya could be right though, it might be that simple.
@Cypher: No I don't suppose it would be possible for a ressing ppu to survive a debuffing apu and 2 dev tanks without his own buffs, but like I said it is possible. If they were onto him just as he started ressing then yes, he will die if he doesn't stop the ress but if he finds someone who isnt close to the main battle and gets a lot of the ress done before enemies arrive then it probobly would be. It's perfectly counterable but still possible, so IMO it's ballanced and doesn't need changing. Remember, I said POSSIBLE, not easy ;) .
@Glok: I managed to do it on my hybrid, but I had capped psi, all the best imps and spells etc. and could only barely manage it (literally 1% lower on dam or 1 shot/min lower and I wouldn't be able to runcast them), so like I said earlier it isn't a viable setup for most people. Also bear in mind I'm not going to mention all the details on these forums or there might be a lot of new hybrids popping up. :p
Originally posted by DrNarf
@Cypher: No I don't suppose it would be possible for a ressing ppu to survive a debuffing apu and 2 dev tanks without his own buffs, but like I said it is possible. If they were onto him just as he started ressing then yes, he will die if he doesn't stop the ress but if he finds someone who isnt close to the main battle and gets a lot of the ress done before enemies arrive then it probobly would be. It's perfectly counterable but still possible, so IMO it's ballanced and doesn't need changing. Remember, I said POSSIBLE, not easy ;) .
:) thats my point too think we misunderstood each other, i believe rezz is fine as it is atm, others were saying if shields become self cast only it should be put back to what it was before it was nerfed. And i agree if the attackers only catch the ppu at the end of the rezz it can be possible, but under the old rezz rate of fire almost every rezz would be successful as it would create the same situation where no matter how quick the attackers are the rezz will be over before they can do much about it.
:angel:
Originally posted by DrNarf
[B@Glok: I managed to do it on my hybrid, but I had capped psi, all the best imps and spells etc. and could only barely manage it (literally 1% lower on dam or 1 shot/min lower and I wouldn't be able to runcast them), so like I said earlier it isn't a viable setup for most people. Also bear in mind I'm not going to mention all the details on these forums or there might be a lot of new hybrids popping up. :p [/B]Hey no problem. I'm not gonna divulge my setup either, assuming I can get it to work, and I have to cap psi before I have any idea how viable it is. :)
Originally posted by YoDa-UK
snip...
You can't say its not a nerf in such a way, first of all you ask for S/D self cast, now your saying added to that you want group buffs lowered in strenght, and also holy heal group, so in effect 3 so called nerfs.
Just wanted to view that one.
snip...
You're nerfing group members off the PPU not the PPU him/herself. We're all agreeing they're making too much of a difference in a group AND they should be close to impossible to kill solo.
The named spell is in-game atm, it's called a GROUP [insert spell name]. Why not use it for what it's there for?
If this idea sucks, why wont you let people test this and report their conclusion and results from this tests?
I mean, youre all so, so sure it will suck, whats the big deal then in letting people test this idea?
Youre 100% sure this will suck yet youre afraid of having other people test this theory.
QuantumDelta
23-02-04, 21:23
They already tested it (small group) seems like it worked/they liked it too.
--
I do agree with Elric quite rightly so about who should be balancing classes.
Disturbed021
23-02-04, 21:34
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
They already tested it (small group) seems like it worked/they liked it too.
I skipped over a bit of this thread so if someone said it somewhere I missed it soz; who tested it? how many ppl?
Someone should organize a large test at least 10+ ppl on a side.
imo making s/d selfcast might really help this game but I am (like most ppl) hesitant to say it would for sure until I see it in action.
Shadow Dancer
23-02-04, 21:46
I think several groups of people should test this several times over the course of a few days.
QuantumDelta
23-02-04, 23:01
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I think several groups of people should test this several times over the course of a few days. Same here.
Dist - it was sadly only a 6v6 but it was probably small numbers because it was an inclan fight...
Ok ive done a little test, well little for me anyway on my tank at a big op fight, i asked for no buffs, no S/D was given.
It happened no more than 5 mins ago and this was the result.
As the enemy came up from the UG, i chased a tank to the hackroom, now obviously he had S/D on as i wasn't really hitting him that much "melee here to so half of it dont register", anyway obviously a few others saw me and then chased me too, while i am melee i have the advantage of a lot of speed, making me harder to hit, which does give me some protection over other classes "setups".
Anyway needless to say a couple of other tanks was on me with cs/dev's and i dropped in about 10 secs flat.
What this shows is that without S/D your defense means jackshit to the power of a weapon, no matter what weapon people use, CS/Dev/Gatlin/HL/FA/PE/FL the list goes on, but its basically all rare weps will drop you in seconds with no S/D on.
Now this is exactly what i expected from the test, while i tried my best to stay alive and avoid being hit, it just wasnt a option for me, and i didn't get para shocked once or dmg boosted.
I will take into account that i only got one holy heal from my side, but tbh it does highlight the fact that a PPU can't afford to keep slapping a heal on the same person every 15 secs when it runs out, with a large team of people "10+" and maybe only 2 ppu's you will have fights ending just as fast as this, people dying on both sides of course.
Now i also know the dev is overpowered, but getting a ppu in a fight to d/s me and then only blessed heal me will be a tad difficult.
So this test was done in a real live op fight, regardless of what dmg i was doing, it was to show me how effective it would be without S/D, how long i would last, and as i expected, less than 30 secs.
Yeah i know its one test, and i know it was on the live server, but i still can't see the reason behind removing S/D
QuantumDelta
23-02-04, 23:53
Anima...when I'm PPUing for a team of up to ten...on my own... they're almost always healing... even if S/D is down they will always have a heal on :/
As long as I can see someone, if they are getting shot or in danger of getting shot, I will heal 'em... sometimes before they even start to take damage.
Then again I'm the real passive PPU in my clan, I barely ever reach for parashock/db unless it's a small scale skirmish where I S/D people then DB enemies then Para Melee/APUs then heal everyone.
Right so we talking about the combined effect of a S/D with Holy heal.
So your saying that a capped holy heal will out heal any dmg on someone without a S/D, this i find not to be true, i was still taking dmg even while being healed last night.
There is a patern here, if you remember back in the old days when S/D was full strenght from a PPU, op fights could and would last a long time, HAB's were in full sight and the battles was great, after the S/D nerf battles became a lot shorter, now we see tactics of people dropping turrets and camping UG's and such, the ENTIRE op system is completely flawed, thats without the S/D argument.
I still do firmly believe that S/D should remain as it stands, just lower the power of that holy heal, can someone test this out in a group? hell you don't even have to fight to do this, just slap a S/D on someone and then run a holy heal, get a few people to kill that person, even use a overpowered Dev if you must, and watch that person not die "as long as their setup is half good", then once the heal has run out, get the ppu to switch to a blessed heal and repeat it, now watch that person drop, or at the very least need a 2nd heal.
Do you see where im coming from on this?, while not removing S/D and making people drop in seconds, it does still offer some form of protection, but while also not making the attackers time wasted, meaning the defender will need to avoid being hit or die.
It won't reduce a PPU's worth, it won't reduce the lenght of a fight to such a extreme as removing S/D
Also remember i was on my tank, now effectively a Tank has better defense than any other class without a S/D on "including a nonbuffed PE" and i know i got a pretty damn good setup, so if i can die that fast, would i be right in assuming a PE/SPY/APU will drop even faster?
I think this argument can and will go on for a while, KK must be watching it like a hawk, but the community is split up over it, and unless you have at least 99% of people backing it, it would be wrong to make such a game changing move.
anima, this is the best post I've read in a very very long time on the S/D Heal problem. I'm beginning to get new ideas :)
yoda, if you don't use s/d and the others do, that's a useless comparison.
also, if you run into a bunch of enemies and die.. that's also not the best thing to do..
Well it is clear that this is something that divides the community I got the following challenge to you all. Any of you who want to test this send me a dm containing your class, server and in-game name. I only have pvp-able characters on pluto so I would prefer that the test was done there, but if the majority is on any other server I`ll just do the coordination. I`ll get 2 teams set up and balanced as best as I can and then coordinate a time that suits as many players as possible for the test to be done.
How about it?
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.