Make stealth tools require Willpower! [Archive]

Mr Friendly

20-02-04, 07:07

Originally posted by Praetorian
This is not a nerf, its altering the game balance... If you do think back a year, spies had NO stealth. So dont come here and call it nerfing! I died plenty back then lol... Now I *ALWAYS* get away unless im in sync/crashed/fataled...

All it comes down to is... will you use skill points in being able to stealth? The way it is now you get it as an added bonus because you put points in T-C to use hightech rifles... Yeah that makes so much sense now doesnt it... :rolleyes:

wasnt referin to u btw w/ that comment

Originally posted by extract
hell no, spies if anything need MORE toys, cause right now, the ONLY advantage to playing a spy is being able to use stealth 3+

a PE can use ALL rifle and pistol rares, capping them is easy with the right setup and implants, the only drawback, is PEs would have to drug to use the higher TL rifles, so lets see a drugged out disruptor PE with stealth 2 and shelter............

and spies have too many toys.....

get a clue please

nerf PEs

not spies
& hellooo?....sniping & all of the tradeskills?...yea, thats what spies are for
not to mention the morphing PAs that the spies get in the next patch :rolleyes:

Richard Blade

20-02-04, 07:10

Tanks know that weaponlore is fairly important.
Most other classes need weaponlore to be effective.
If willpower was needed for stealth, then that would take away from weaponlore, or another skill.
Most classes get to do multiple things. PE's can shoot and hack.
A pistol / constructor does ok for a spy.

But, willpower would take too much int, and make an "expert" in INT into a third rate loser.

NO.

Praetorian

20-02-04, 07:14

Originally posted by extract
hell no, spies if anything need MORE toys, cause right now, the ONLY advantage to playing a spy is being able to use stealth 3+

a PE can use ALL rifle and pistol rares, capping them is easy with the right setup and implants, the only drawback, is PEs would have to drug to use the higher TL rifles, so lets see a drugged out disruptor PE with stealth 2 and shelter............

and spies have too many toys.....

get a clue please

nerf PEs

not spies

Sorry bro, seems to be you thats clueless...

'dont nerf this, nerf that'. Read what I wrote k thx.

The way it is now spies has nothing going against them... Give them more toys? Are you insane? What the else would they need? They have *.*

And 'nerf PEs'... Thats just too easy to say, how about some examples of how to balance out what you think is screwed up?

I am pointing to one single factor that IMHO is very unbalanced. And it WOULD nerf the PEs as well, as I dont think too many PE's would care to put points into willpower.

Like I said before, spies has got everything going for them. Only thing they cant is PvP face to face. Well they can, but will have much more success in sniping from the distance with a SH. That rifle can take out anyone. And if they get detected *puf* stealthed...

Bl@zed

20-02-04, 07:18

ummm.....NO

Praetorian

20-02-04, 07:23

Originally posted by Richard Blade
Tanks know that weaponlore is fairly important.
Most other classes need weaponlore to be effective.
If willpower was needed for stealth, then that would take away from weaponlore, or another skill.
Most classes get to do multiple things. PE's can shoot and hack.
A pistol / constructor does ok for a spy.

But, willpower would take too much int, and make an "expert" in INT into a third rate loser.

NO.

So tell me why he should have: Hacking skill to hack OPs, great aim, use all rifles/pistols, AND stealth (perhaps even throw in the odd tradeskill) at the same time? Thats just too good, really... Think about it.

Besides, what would a tradeskill spy use stealth for if he is going to be a tradeskiller in the city?? And if he does, he surely does not have to hack. Either way, if stealth where to require an INT skill like Willpower, I dont see the problem in having to nerf down your hacking abit, so you might only be able to do warbots. Besides, the Willpower could start pretty low at the first stealth device, say 50'ish...

Praetorian

20-02-04, 07:32

Originally posted by Bl@zed
ummm.....NO

Yeah that would be a typically tank'ish answer... :p

I take it you have a spy since you say no? Perhaps explain why you said no...

trigger hurt

20-02-04, 07:34

Originally posted by Praetorian
Yeah... I mean it...

Why should the stealth tools require nothing but T-C? I mean, spies want to use hightech rifles anyway, so of course they have loads in T-C... At least enough for the 3rd level stealth tool, which is more than enough to get away safely.

So basically spies get all the good stuff in this world, they can hack, they can use hightech rifles and they can stealth away whenever they wish... Whats up with that? They can even tradeskill as well, I might add (Like myself).

That just isnt balanced... Then I started thinking... Why not make it require another skill, like willpower. This could be because you'd have to concentrate real hard to maintain the stealth or keep it working. T-C is for weapons, not tools right?

So am I completely mad or out of my mind? Agree/disagree? Why and why not?

1- Spies do not get all the good stuff.
Tanks get 2 of the best weapons. Devourer and Cursed Soul
Monks get THE best weapon in the game. Holy Lightning (even with the recent secret nerf)
PE's can use just about everything that spies can use, they can also be really good at melee or heavy combat
Ever try to kill a ppu with a first love from range? Or with a ray of last hope right in their face? Even if you do get them down, they pop their holy heal and outheal a high tl rare pistol or rifle.

2-We spies sacrified our ability to take a ton of damage like ppus, tanks and pe's so that we can use our intelligence and dexterity to our benefit. We are supposed to be able to hack/construct/research/etc.

3-Why would a spy have to concentrate to keep a stealth? It's not a magic spell, it's a device, a TECHNICAL device that allows him to 'disappear' momentarily to avoid confrontation. We already can't attack you when we are stealthed, how much more do you want to damage us?

There is nothing wrong with stealth as it stands right now. Some people are cowardly and will take one good, clean shot and hit the stealth button, then there are the others who will fight it out to the death. This might not hurt spies very much, but it would kill hacking pe's who depend on their psi use to allow them to runcast heal which is much more effective in a fight than a stealth tool, in my opinion.

Break out your AOE or wait for him to unstealth then lay in to him. And while he's running around stealthing, heal up and keep moving.

Mr Friendly

20-02-04, 07:40

greploco

20-02-04, 07:52

damn

please don't kill stealth

it's a game element, deal with it. more than that -- it's a game element that forces people to use their brains. now that's really cool. both to use stealth and to defend against it.

I don't want to get off topic - but

it's like the devourer, everyone wants to nerf it. but the fact that buffed apus can no longer walk up to tanks and holy lightning them do death with impunity is a good thing. it's short range and takes some skill to aim, and tanks can't run with a drawn heavy wepon -- but buffed people sure aren't going to be walking up to tanks without fear anymore. I mean, spys are killing tanks with slashers and disruptors -- no more if tank has a dev.

it fits the class. tank == massive freaking damage.

same for stealth.

Praetorian

20-02-04, 07:53

Originally posted by trigger hurt
1- Spies do not get all the good stuff.
Tanks get 2 of the best weapons. Devourer and Cursed Soul
Monks get THE best weapon in the game. Holy Lightning (even with the recent secret nerf)
PE's can use just about everything that spies can use, they can also be really good at melee or heavy combat
Ever try to kill a ppu with a first love from range? Or with a ray of last hope right in their face? Even if you do get them down, they pop their holy heal and outheal a high tl rare pistol or rifle.

2-We spies sacrified our ability to take a ton of damage like ppus, tanks and pe's so that we can use our intelligence and dexterity to our benefit. We are supposed to be able to hack/construct/research/etc.

3-Why would a spy have to concentrate to keep a stealth? It's not a magic spell, it's a device, a TECHNICAL device that allows him to 'disappear' momentarily to avoid confrontation. We already can't attack you when we are stealthed, how much more do you want to damage us?

There is nothing wrong with stealth as it stands right now. Some people are cowardly and will take one good, clean shot and hit the stealth button, then there are the others who will fight it out to the death. This might not hurt spies very much, but it would kill hacking pe's who depend on their psi use to allow them to runcast heal which is much more effective in a fight than a stealth tool, in my opinion.

Break out your AOE or wait for him to unstealth then lay in to him. And while he's running around stealthing, heal up and keep moving.

1. What you say is obvious, tanks will have the best weapons, an APU that will keel over from being hit with a canopener would have really good offensive spells. A spy's combat strength is ranged combat. So what beats a SH? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. And you can keep pestering someone with it for eternity. Either you kill him, or he gets frustrated and leaves the zone... Killing a PPU with a SH can be done. Anyone will have a hard time taking down a PPU. That is THEIR strength. Nothing is wrong with what the spies have now at all. Quite the contrary...

2. So go hack/construct/research if you want, but if you want to be good, then specialise for it. And IMHO then you dont need stealth. If you absolutely want the best of both worlds, then you cant be an expert in all fields.

3. I agree, I was just giving ideas as to why it could be willpower... But what the hell does willpower have to do with spells eh? Nothing! What if it took some kind of interface into the device so you had to use your mind to make the stealth effect? Is that hard to imagine? And what do you mean you cant attack when stealthed, eat 'the blue pill' ffs... :rolleyes:

Everything is wrong with the way stealth is now, why wont you see it? And dont get me wrong, I have a near capped spy, I know what it can do. I can hack OPs, I aim great, I repair great and I also stealth great... my spy has no real weaknesses, except for close quarter combat! If I wanted to kill people, I would lug a SH with me and go hunting... (not something I practise though)

I also think you contradict yourselves a few times... You say theres cowards, and those that stay and fight to the death. Great, let me know why the ones that stay and fight to the death would need to put points into willpower to be able to stealth then. Also tell me why it would kill the hacking PE's who with your words are better off runcasting heal anyway...

Anyway, it seems Im fighting a lost battle here... Well it was an idea anyway. I guess people are too set into their ways to allow any new ideas to mess with their spies... ;)

Bl@zed

20-02-04, 07:55

Originally posted by Praetorian
Yeah that would be a typically tank'ish answer... :p

I take it you have a spy since you say no? Perhaps explain why you said no...

hmmk,
willpower is a DRONE ONLY skill, makes your range and effects the damage of drones a little (droner equivilant of weapon lore). From an RP perspective it would make NO SENSE whatsoever if you throurally thought this out. Will power has nothing to do with stealth at all. Makes no sense.

trigger hurt

20-02-04, 08:01

Originally posted by Mr Friendly
spies dont have all the good stuff?....what r u mental?....lets look at the figures:
1) only 2 classes can use stealth, spies are one of em
2) the Silent Hunter sniper rifle (sniping in general)
3) able to cap any tradeskill
4) have a drone that nails ppus
5) have a drone that nails apus
6) drones in the first place are hard as hell to target & deal good dmg & are damn fast
7)need i continue?....sure
8)are one of the only 2 classes that can wear the heavy belts
9) are getting a PA next patch that can morph their appearance to any class's appearance
10)are the only class that can use high lvl drones efficiently
11) the only class capable of using stealth 3

my god, u spies whine & bitch sayin yall want better weapons/drone, & are underpowered. the class is now to the point where they're average/overpowered, just like the monks....& yall want MORE stuff?....o_O go home :angel:

I never asked for more stuff. I just want you to leave my stuff alone. You 'other classes' whine so much when shit is handed to you on a silver platter, but give a spy an advantage, and you gotta whine for the nerf.

so, I will dispute your points then be off to bed.

1. Monks are not dextrous, so they dont have enough skill to use a technical device such as a stealth tool. You already do/take the most damage in the game.
2. Silent Hunter. While it has improved greatly since the last patch, it's still not that great. Pe/Tank/Monk gets shot, runs off to hide and heal up. If APU, you can still get away, although if you can't heal, you are pretty much screwed. Which is the way it should be.
3. A friend has 4 pe's 1 researchers(uses a lab)/implants, 1 constructs (uses a factory)/repairs. The constructor caps the high level pb drones and repairs TL 150 base and the resser has never broken an e part of mine. I have had him do at least 300 techs in the past few months.
4. Holy Heal outheals anything. And with the right con setup, it outheals devourer. It can definatly outheal this drone, which happens to be bugged to hell and back right now. Remember how long it took for them to fix the first thousand drone bugs?
5. Why shouldn't apu's get nailed by a drone that does peirce? You don't have alot of peirce armor available to you. But you can get enough force resist to be able to run away.
6. Drones are slow as hell. And they should be harder to target. They have a smaller hit-box and 2 or 3 hl's will blow them up, leaving the droner with synaptic impairment. (is there a balance issue there?)
7. I know I'm going to continue...
8. Monks need an adjustment on their int gain so they can get up to heavy belts. But what's the problem with having things that only a couple of classes can use? Isn't that what balance is about?
9. At a sacrifice of what? What does the spy have to give up to use this armor?
10. Uh, what's your point? PE's aren't supposed to be able to master 1 particular skill, monks dont have the dex and droner tank? rawffles.
11. We have to have something that only we can use, dont we?

Based on your points, spies should be the uberest characters in the game. They are not. They can be good or great. They are typically mediocre, simply because getting a really good pvp setup with them requires sacrificing damage on their high end weapons, or not using them at all.

Meanwhile, a pe can sacrifice some damage on a weapon in order to get more defense and take down apus, ppus and spies and other pe's. Monks dont have to sacrifice any damage to be able to setup their con decently. Tanks? Tanks get the most con in the game, they should be able to cap every resist in the stat, plus they deal a huge amount of damage.

Secondly, most everything a spy uses, a PE or Tank can use decently. So isn't it ok that we have a couple things all our own? A monk/tank/pe saying "it's not fair, you can use high level drones effectively" is like a spy saying "it's not fair, you can use holy lightning/holy antibuff effectively"

We have stuff that was made for us, why is there a need to nerf it into oblivion because YOU can't kill a stealther.

Praetorian

20-02-04, 08:02

Originally posted by greploco
damn

please don't kill stealth

it's a game element, deal with it. more than that -- it's a game element that forces people to use their brains. now that's really cool. both to use stealth and to defend against it.

I don't want to get off topic - but

it's like the devourer, everyone wants to nerf it. but the fact that buffed apus can no longer walk up to tanks and holy lightning them do death with impunity is a good thing. it's short range and takes some skill to aim, and tanks can't run with a drawn heavy wepon -- but buffed people sure aren't going to be walking up to tanks without fear anymore. I mean, spys are killing tanks with slashers and disruptors -- no more if tank has a dev.

it fits the class. tank == massive freaking damage.

same for stealth.

Hey, I didnt say I wanted stealth killed, I think its a good thing, but they way it is now its being abused. Think about it, its for free! Spies can use it if they decide to use T-C rifles, and I dont know anyone who doesnt. (Except for pure tradeskill alts)

What if a Tank could get it just because he had 89 T-C because he wants to use his Doombeamer?? o_O
After all, its just a device, why cant everyone get it? :p

And another thing. How would you defend yourself as a tank if someone decided to go "hide-and-silent hunt" on your ass? You couldnt, you'd have to leg it out before he kneecapped you... It doesnt take brains to push a key and be instantly in a safezone. (except that one time every 6th millennia where you'd be busted by a PPU that had his true sight sanctum with him because he forgot it in his QB - and he happened to zone in on your back while you sniped one of his clannies) And this a spy gets for absolutely free. FREE!!!! Before you had to spend extra points in T-C for the long stealths, now you get 30 seconds for free.

Its just not right...

Praetorian

20-02-04, 08:05

Originally posted by Bl@zed
hmmk,
willpower is a DRONE ONLY skill, makes your range and effects the damage of drones a little (droner equivilant of weapon lore). From an RP perspective it would make NO SENSE whatsoever if you throurally thought this out. Will power has nothing to do with stealth at all. Makes no sense.

Like I said in an earlier reply to someone else, it was just an idea to make it possible. Its not too hard to imagine a technical device that would tap into your brain, using it to form some kind of illusion around you... I mean, what with hacknet coming up, this kind of stuff is not too far off.

It was just to make the spies PAY for being able to stealth...

And remember, I have a spy myself. So its not because I'm tired of stealthing spies, I love being able to do it. I just think its ridiculously overpowered for its cost - which is nothing.

Bl@zed

20-02-04, 08:07

Originally posted by Praetorian
Like I said in an earlier reply to someone else, it was just an idea to make it possible. Its not too hard to imagine a technical device that would tap into your brain, using it to form some kind of illusion around you... I mean, what with hacknet coming up, this kind of stuff is not too far off.

It was just to make the spies PAY for being able to stealth...

And remember, I have a spy myself. So its not because I'm tired of stealthing spies, I love being able to do it. I just think its ridiculously overpowered for its cost - which is nothing.

if it tapped into your brain, wouldn't it make more sense to have a stealth implant rather than a stealth tool? which has no connection to your body, its more like a remote control for a TV (a separate device to control one thing)

Babai

20-02-04, 08:12

LOL @ the thread.

Praetorian

20-02-04, 08:19

Originally posted by trigger hurt
I never asked for more stuff. I just want you to leave my stuff alone. You 'other classes' whine so much when shit is handed to you on a silver platter, but give a spy an advantage, and you gotta whine for the nerf.

so, I will dispute your points then be off to bed.

<cut>

We have stuff that was made for us, why is there a need to nerf it into oblivion because YOU can't kill a stealther.

I am not whining for a nerf. I dont want the stealthtools gone, I dont want them to last shorter periods of time. I do however want that you pay some kind of price for the huge advantage it gives you. For the billionth time, the spies gets it for FREE. lol, well, they pay for one, but you know what I mean... ;)

I am also tired, and even though I could 're'-dispute just about 90% of your points, I wont...

Again I stress... 'nerf it into oblivion' is a thing someone says when they are afraid that something too good to be true will finally be taken away again. Look its ridiculously overpowered for its price (I think i've said that a few times now). There is no excuse, and 'whine we wanna something only our class can use' is just so sad... NOONE IS TAKING YOUR 'PRECIOUS' AWAY...

All I did was come up with an idea that made it an option, not a natural thing to have. Hacking is nice, you have to put points into hacking. Aiming is nice, you have to put points into aiming, etc. etc., oooh and stealthing is nice, you ehhh, oh right, you already had points in there... lucky you... :rolleyes:

Praetorian

20-02-04, 08:21

Originally posted by Bl@zed
if it tapped into your brain, wouldn't it make more sense to have a stealth implant rather than a stealth tool? which has no connection to your body, its more like a remote control for a TV (a separate device to control one thing)

Good idea actually, that would increase the cost of being able to stealth dramatically... Imagine losing a slot for other imps to be able to stealth... That would work for me. :)

Mr Friendly

20-02-04, 08:28

Originally posted by trigger hurt
I never asked for more stuff. I just want you to leave my stuff alone. You 'other classes' whine so much when shit is handed to you on a silver platter, but give a spy an advantage, and you gotta whine for the nerf.

typical - u said urself "spies dont have all the good stuff" meaning u think they should get better stuff, neway...
& secondly, point to me where i said i wanted to nerf sumthin. jtlyk, im 100% against "nerfing" nething. im 100% all for "adjusting" things. mainly accidents that come w/ patches etc
& also, those points were not to be specific points, u can easily argue em out - they're there to show u how spies DO have alot of "the good stuff" u say they DONT have. end.
_________________
neway, back to the topic:

Originally posted by Praetorian
Good idea actually, that would increase the cost of being able to stealth dramatically... Imagine losing a slot for other imps to be able to stealth... That would work for me. :)
actually id have to agree ever since i saw a melee tank that was able to use stealth 1 o_O sumthin has to be done, but makin the stealths require more wont help & will piss off the PEs, but yet, the same will happen from adding some wpw in. we cant make it spy only, cuz PEs wont get to use it. (imo, i dont believe they should be allowed to use it in the first place)
so neway, adding wpw could make it so that PEs would have to sack some hacking or psi use to use it & the same with spies. & i dont believe tanks would be able to use it then cuz they would have to basically be melee & get rid of all psi use :\

Bl@zed

20-02-04, 08:33

Originally posted by Praetorian
Good idea actually, that would increase the cost of being able to stealth dramatically... Imagine losing a slot for other imps to be able to stealth... That would work for me. :)

this wouldnt make the chance of you stealthing smaller, maybe a RANDOM time each time you stealth (decent time for each tl) instead of a SET time. Or the more will power you have, the longer you stealth with the imp, and yes you could invest a lot in will power to stealth just like obliterator. But this would also hinder the spies ability you hack or poke + stealth. ;)

Zanathos

20-02-04, 08:49

adding will power to stealth would help hackers :D

if they did add will power, it better not be a friggin bucket load.

Bl@zed

20-02-04, 08:51

Originally posted by Zanathos
adding will power to stealth would help hackers :D

if they did add will power, it better not be a friggin bucket load.

i doubt it would be a lot, it would have maybe a 70 wp req, then the additional points you add up the time you stealth. :)

Jeros82

20-02-04, 08:54

Plz stop all this nerfing. If it keeps going like this you'll need an entire clan just to kill a sewer rat. Why don't you guys just power up the rest so you still out balance it.

SorkZmok

20-02-04, 09:00

Originally posted by Praetorian
And this a spy gets for absolutely free. FREE!!!! Before you had to spend extra points in T-C for the long stealths, now you get 30 seconds for free.

Its just not right...
Why not? Whats the problem with that? Got killed by a stealther? o_O

And you dont get it for free btw, stealth 3 is 95 t-c, more than the guns would need.

mdares

20-02-04, 09:58

well how about this then to keep people happy: take the TC req on stealth, halve it; then put the other half into wpw... voila! u get ur TC req and WPW req... its not too high so people wont have to seriously gimp for it... (actually i know that this really doesnt accomplish anything but still :p)

Dajuda

20-02-04, 10:14

Nerf the Stealthers !!!

Leebzie

20-02-04, 10:40

PE stealth is now much more difficult to obtain (absolutely beyond level 1) PE's *MUST* drug to get the high end rifles a spy can use in his sleep, but thats the disadvantage they pay in light of additional defence. Players with skill have far less trouble tracking a stealther anyway...

Spies are not overpowered, no matter how many toys they got atm.

Nvidia

20-02-04, 10:47

....
.....
....

Sorry to sound like an asshole here, but this suggestion is almost as bad as that guy that thought LE'd people should pay less for the game because they can't do PvP. o_O

You have any idea how hard it would be to cap aiming on a rifle if you wanted a skill like hacking as well, and also had to put points into Willpower?

I dunno, this sounds like the thread starter wants it easier for drones, and no one else, at least that's my take on it.

As much as I hate stealthing whores, who click the mouse button after every shot, this nerf would be un-justified. Before I shoved my kami chip into my head, I lomed out all my TC, just so I couldn't use stealth (on a spy :wtf: ) to challenge myself. As much as I want to see other people do that too, there are people out there with con setup's that aren't so great, and really depend on stealth to save their asses.

Adding willpower as a stealth req would effectively kill anyone trying to cap aiming on a rifle, possible more important than the damage itself, when trying to 'snipe'.

I'm sorry, I just don't think this idea was thought out at all.

1 star.

Argent

20-02-04, 10:51

Well, that would be pretty damn good reason to roll all my spies into 100% tradeskillers, since even my last bit of defence would be ripped from me.

Original monk

20-02-04, 11:00

i think the threadstarter is trying to fool us with somekind of bad joke lol ...

wpw LOL, so i gotta spec a skill with my rifle sniper stealther spy that i cant use at all ??

yah read the rifle part ??? that means my spy doesnt have anything to do with droning !!! so why would i need wpw ?? yust to waste valuable skillpoints ? no thanx hehe

whats next: make a HC powerarmour require 90 pistolcombat ???

then my suggestion is: make the riggers dream and the special rigger interface require atleast 65 MST ...

or make the dronereyes require 80 melleecombat o.O

hehe

weird people

Lethys

20-02-04, 11:03

I'm sorry, I just can't take this idea seriously.

You want MORE specialisation in the game? There's already FAR too much.

LordJammer

20-02-04, 11:16

100% agree trigger hurt

DestructionUK

20-02-04, 11:50

shut up idiot

Dajuda

20-02-04, 12:25

Didn't Vet just prove that spies dont have to be cowards .. I don't really agree with the willpower thing but I do think something should be done with stealth. Comments like 'last defence stripped from me' just don't hold up, cause if stealth is your only ine of defence you should be working out a better con setup or something.

Original monk

20-02-04, 12:35

Originally posted by Dajuda
Didn't Vet just prove that spies dont have to be cowards .. I don't really agree with the willpower thing but I do think something should be done with stealth. Comments like 'last defence stripped from me' just don't hold up, cause if stealth is your only ine of defence you should be working out a better con setup or something.

if you are a pure combat stealther riflerspy then its more then yust stripping defense .. the whole strategy of the sniper is beeing unseen all the time and strike out of nothing from faar away to then dissapear again at the same speed as he had arrived .. stay off stealth .. and certainly dont go mixing droningskills with stealth o_O

Lethys

20-02-04, 15:10

FirestarXL

20-02-04, 15:20

I'm sorry, but I disagree.

I feel the two main points you're putting forward in favour of this idea are flawed:

One, the power of the SH. It's not. Firstly, a silent hunter does virtually nothing against holy or blessed deflector. Secondly, the power of the silent hunter is crippled in pvp due to the hit/damage model used in calculating player damage. Thirdly the terrain means you will rarely get more than two hits on a player. you need a minimum of three to kill - someone else must do damage too for you to have a chance.

And two, the infallibility of stealth, it's also not. IF you see them coming, IF you manage to activate in time (remember it's delayed, and delayed further on their screen), then yes you can get away and choose a new sniping spot or escape from the close range combat you want to be in. That's intentional, that's how spies have to fight. Now let's assume you don't, let's assume someone is a competent player and chooses not to be a fish in a barrel by running along your line of sight - he runs around to the side (you're looking through a scope remember) and suddenly you're taking damage. Being a spy, you're taking a lot of damage. Sure you can stealth after a delay if you're not dead already, but lets assume this competent player has put stacking damage on you. You're not invisible, he can see exactly where you're going and if he has aoe, he can kill you and you can't fight back. Let's assume best case scenario and you survive the stacks. You lose your persuer, and then you have to spend time healing up and hoping you're not caught with your trousers down during that time. Congratulations, you just almost killed one person and just managed to survive, mostly by luck. There's nothing there or anywhere in this thread that you should need to gimp your spy to use stealth.

Praetorian

20-02-04, 15:32

Originally posted by Nvidia
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Sorry to sound like an asshole here, but this suggestion is almost as bad as that guy that thought LE'd people should pay less for the game because they can't do PvP. o_O

You have any idea how hard it would be to cap aiming on a rifle if you wanted a skill like hacking as well, and also had to put points into Willpower?

I dunno, this sounds like the thread starter wants it easier for drones, and no one else, at least that's my take on it.

As much as I hate stealthing whores, who click the mouse button after every shot, this nerf would be un-justified. Before I shoved my kami chip into my head, I lomed out all my TC, just so I couldn't use stealth (on a spy :wtf: ) to challenge myself. As much as I want to see other people do that too, there are people out there with con setup's that aren't so great, and really depend on stealth to save their asses.

Adding willpower as a stealth req would effectively kill anyone trying to cap aiming on a rifle, possible more important than the damage itself, when trying to 'snipe'.

I'm sorry, I just don't think this idea was thought out at all.

1 star.

Well, it seems I being misunderstood. Repeatedly.

Nowhere did I say I wanted to take it away, nowhere did I say I would like it to require 150 T-C or similar. The willpower thing was just a suggestion. And can people stop the 'oh but it will make it impossible for me to do all the things i want'. Can a tank cap his weapons? No. And he is a trained killer and he cant... But let the spy hack, cap aiming/damage AND stealth why not... o_O

So if you cannot survive in PvP, you have to specialize abit and spend points in some skill so that gives you bigger chance of survival, as it is now, you just get stealthing as a sidedish for going into T-C weapons...

I just think its unbalanced to let the spy stealth without any penalties. Remember stealth was introduced... We lived without it before. When it came, it actually cost alot in T-C to have long stealths, and did you stealth repeatedly, you ended up in a drug haze. Where are the penalties now? Nowhere.

Well, perhaps it WAS a bad idea. But I truly dont think its unjustifiable to make spies use skill points to be able to use a device like that... And 1 star, well that just makes me think that you didnt get it, really. And no, I dont care for droners, never tried it, probably never will. :)

Praetorian

20-02-04, 15:35

Originally posted by Original monk
i think the threadstarter is trying to fool us with somekind of bad joke lol ...

wpw LOL, so i gotta spec a skill with my rifle sniper stealther spy that i cant use at all ??

yah read the rifle part ??? that means my spy doesnt have anything to do with droning !!! so why would i need wpw ?? yust to waste valuable skillpoints ? no thanx hehe

whats next: make a HC powerarmour require 90 pistolcombat ???

then my suggestion is: make the riggers dream and the special rigger interface require atleast 65 MST ...

or make the dronereyes require 80 melleecombat o.O

hehe

weird people

One word, clueless...

Ok, im giving up in this idea, seems people dont want their 'precious' (as gollum would say) taken away.

I just want stealth to COST something. People want it for free. Fair enough. Lets give all chars a stealth device, i mean, ffs, its just a box with a button. Even a tank could push that. o_O

Get it now?

Edit: Oh, and for the record: "I DO NOT WANT IT TO BE TAKEN AWAY FROM YOU" - I just had the nerve to suggest you'd have to pay for the bonus of being able to get out of almost any situation. My god people get so defensive. :confused:

El_MUERkO

20-02-04, 15:35

pish you guys all suck!

nerf stealth . . . whing whing whig wi!

trigger hurt

20-02-04, 15:47

Originally posted by Praetorian
I am not whining for a nerf. I dont want the stealthtools gone, I dont want them to last shorter periods of time. I do however want that you pay some kind of price for the huge advantage it gives you. For the billionth time, the spies gets it for FREE. lol, well, they pay for one, but you know what I mean... ;)

I am also tired, and even though I could 're'-dispute just about 90% of your points, I wont...

Again I stress... 'nerf it into oblivion' is a thing someone says when they are afraid that something too good to be true will finally be taken away again. Look its ridiculously overpowered for its price (I think i've said that a few times now). There is no excuse, and 'whine we wanna something only our class can use' is just so sad... NOONE IS TAKING YOUR 'PRECIOUS' AWAY...

All I did was come up with an idea that made it an option, not a natural thing to have. Hacking is nice, you have to put points into hacking. Aiming is nice, you have to put points into aiming, etc. etc., oooh and stealthing is nice, you ehhh, oh right, you already had points in there... lucky you... :rolleyes:

It's not rediculously overpowered. And it's definatly not free.

How is it balanced? Well, I can't attack you when stealthed and I have to skill a huge amount of valuable dex points to be able to use a decent stealth tool. Stealth 1 hardly affords a quick get away. Stealth 2 last just long enough. But if I am a sniping spy who takes a shot then stealths to reposition so noone gets a fix on me, I need something that last longer than 15 seconds, which means even more valuable dex points, (key word) sacrificing either damage on high level rifles or speed or both. How exactly is that free?

Edit: Oh, and for the record: "I DO NOT WANT IT TO BE TAKEN AWAY FROM YOU" - I just had the nerve to suggest you'd have to pay for the bonus of being able to get out of almost any situation. My god people get so defensive

Again, with the way lag is in-game, stealthing rarely gets you out scott free. Turrets can still stun a stealther and if he unstealths while still stuck in the turrets, he's toast. Not to mention anyone who had you targeted just before you stealthed and they fired, their shots are going to hit you, with the way this game works.

People are defensive about something that doesnt need to be changed. First, people bitched about invincible monks, when there were quite a few people who could kill hybrids 1v1, but hey...it's hard for a few people, lets nerf the fuck out of them

Then, you guys couldnt kill a stealthing pe. So, you whined and whined until they changed the requirements for pes. Surprise, it hasn't stopped pe's from stealthing and you guys are still bitching about it.

deac

20-02-04, 15:50

yea omfg spys get a toy! well its not a toy... its the one thing that saves spys from beeing owned 24/7...

Praetorian

20-02-04, 15:50

Originally posted by FirestarXL
I'm sorry, but I disagree.

I feel the two main points you're putting forward in favour of this idea are flawed:

One, the power of the SH. It's not. Firstly, a silent hunter does virtually nothing against holy or blessed deflector. Secondly, the power of the silent hunter is crippled in pvp due to the hit/damage model used in calculating player damage. Thirdly the terrain means you will rarely get more than two hits on a player. you need a minimum of three to kill - someone else must do damage too for you to have a chance.

And two, the infallibility of stealth, it's also not. IF you see them coming, IF you manage to activate in time (remember it's delayed, and delayed further on their screen), then yes you can get away and choose a new sniping spot or escape from the close range combat you want to be in. That's intentional, that's how spies have to fight. Now let's assume you don't, let's assume someone is a competent player and chooses not to be a fish in a barrel by running along your line of sight - he runs around to the side (you're looking through a scope remember) and suddenly you're taking damage. Being a spy, you're taking a lot of damage. Sure you can stealth after a delay if you're not dead already, but lets assume this competent player has put stacking damage on you. You're not invisible, he can see exactly where you're going and if he has aoe, he can kill you and you can't fight back. Let's assume best case scenario and you survive the stacks. You lose your persuer, and then you have to spend time healing up and hoping you're not caught with your trousers down during that time. Congratulations, you just almost killed one person and just managed to survive, mostly by luck. There's nothing there or anywhere in this thread that you should need to gimp your spy to use stealth.

We didnt have stealth always. Then it cost us something, now its free.

1. The Silent Hunters damage will be fixed (eventually), its damage is also always being altered. I take it you have alot of experience using it, since you say it always take 3 shots to kill, and your enemy always gets away because of terrain. Well, theres ways to counter those, really...

2. The stealth device was added. Remember? Before that you had NOTHING. You DIED. Now you get a really really big chance of getting away, at the cost of NOTHING. And I'm looking through a scope? Yes, but then my target is IN my scope, not to my side ffs... If he suddenly goes out of sight and I lost track, Id get my sorry stealthed ass out of the spot I'd been in. And I'd not attack a tank followed by a PPU, coz that would be suicide, even for another lone tank. Lets assume the competent player DID put stacking damge, then you'd be in trouble, as any class... Easy, shoot, stealth, move spot, unstealth, shoot, stealth... How will he target you to stack you?

Ahh ffs, just forget it... Lets just keep the stealth as is... All spies stay happy then... Free stuff is always the best isnt it...

Praetorian

20-02-04, 16:10

Originally posted by trigger hurt
It's not rediculously overpowered. And it's definatly not free.

How is it balanced? Well, I can't attack you when stealthed and I have to skill a huge amount of valuable dex points to be able to use a decent stealth tool. Stealth 1 hardly affords a quick get away. Stealth 2 last just long enough. But if I am a sniping spy who takes a shot then stealths to reposition so noone gets a fix on me, I need something that last longer than 15 seconds, which means even more valuable dex points, (key word) sacrificing either damage on high level rifles or speed or both. How exactly is that free?

Ok you had me puzzled there a bit... Ok, so stealth 2 requires T-C of 90, which is 1 point more than 89 required for, say, disrupter and first love. 1 point. Ok I was wrong... ;)

And the next level, 30 seconds which used to cost more than 100 T-C (was it 105?) not costs 95... Thats like 4 DEX levels more in cost... not too shabby... the old would be like 15 DEX levels in the old days... (95->105 T-C if im not too far off the 105 T-C)

And is the stealthbreaker drugs not working?

Again, with the way lag is in-game, stealthing rarely gets you out scott free. Turrets can still stun a stealther and if he unstealths while still stuck in the turrets, he's toast. Not to mention anyone who had you targeted just before you stealthed and they fired, their shots are going to hit you, with the way this game works.

People are defensive about something that doesnt need to be changed. First, people bitched about invincible monks, when there were quite a few people who could kill hybrids 1v1, but hey...it's hard for a few people, lets nerf the fuck out of them

Then, you guys couldnt kill a stealthing pe. So, you whined and whined until they changed the requirements for pes. Surprise, it hasn't stopped pe's from stealthing and you guys are still bitching about it.

And everybody is toast if they get stuck at at a stun turret, your point? I need to clarify myself: I have a stealth spy, I rifle, I hack, I get it all for free. I have the clear vision and balls to actually suggest I have too much going for me, I get gang ********** on the forum by spies who suddenly feels the cold hand of alteration approach their poor poor spy... Its understandable. Tell me this, we could live without stealth before, people CHOSE to play spies nevertheless... Then they added stealth, it got good, but at a cost. Now its just there as an added bonus. So you have to put *1* point into T-C to get 30 seconds worth of getaway time. Yeah thats balanced... Really... But like I said, I give up, all the spies on the forum dont want it, naturally.

FirestarXL

20-02-04, 16:16

I'm not trying to moan pointlessly here, I have far more respect for you than that, but I'm just countering your points with my own.

Yes, you're completely right, before stealth spies died a lot, because and I quote, we had NOTHING. We DIED. Lots more than any other class. But that was a situation that needed to be remedied, not just accepted in "you're a spy, your purpose is to go out there and die at them" kind of way. Stealth was that remedy, and it had to be given at low (NOT free) cost to us, in order to bring spies closer to the other classes in terms of viability. It was a compensation for being crap, not a boost above other classes.

No it's not free, it comes at a cost of TC (higher than the highest weapon), now a much more reasonable amount yes, but at the cost of RC and with a reduced stealth time (now 10/20/30/60)than when it had the higher requirements.

Also, my point with stacking damage was not referring to the damage part, but the graphical effects that stacks produce - those are visible by anyone and allow people to see clear as day where a stealther is, without needing true sight.

Praetorian

20-02-04, 16:20

Originally posted by deac
yea omfg spys get a toy! well its not a toy... its the one thing that saves spys from beeing owned 24/7...

Stunningly bright answer...

Spies had jack shit in the beginning when I started my spy. If the enemy came, you had to fight it out (like every other class) and then you would usually die... You had to stick together with team/clanmates for protection. You had to play it smart and solo hunt where noone would care to go for PKing. A spy is NOT by definition a combat character. He can be a sniper, and he could still be that without stealth. It would be ALOT harder, but then so is life. For the very last time, I dont want it gone, I just want it to cost something. Is that so hard to grasp? Why are spies getting this for (almost) free??? It USED to cost something...

Praetorian

20-02-04, 16:28

Originally posted by FirestarXL
I'm not trying to moan pointlessly here, I have far more respect for you than that, but I'm just countering your points with my own.

Yes, you're completely right, before stealth spies died a lot, because and I quote, we had NOTHING. We DIED. Lots more than any other class. But that was a situation that needed to be remedied, not just accepted in "you're a spy, your purpose is to go out there and die at them" kind of way. Stealth was that remedy, and it had to be given at low (NOT free) cost to us, in order to bring spies closer to the other classes in terms of viability. It was a compensation for being crap, not a boost above other classes.

No it's not free, it comes at a cost of TC (higher than the highest weapon), now a much more reasonable amount yes, but at the cost of RC and with a reduced stealth time (now 10/20/30/60)than when it had the higher requirements.

Also, my point with stacking damage was not referring to the damage part, but the graphical effects that stacks produce - those are visible by anyone and allow people to see clear as day where a stealther is, without needing true sight.

But there was never any lack of spies, people still enjoyed them, and I still do. A spy is a weak character, not indented for close combat... So why should he then be given a device that will let him stealth for, and i truly think most spies put at least 89 in T-C for FL or Disruptor (then what is 1 more point to get 30 second stealth?). And the 10/20/30/60 time is just to make it go away faster so you dont have to drug you way out of the stealth IMHO...

I understood the stacking damage, I just didnt answer clearly enough sorry. Its the same with para, they can follow you around... I know, god knows I've tried it myself too often... But in those situations where you get attacked by a team of either a PPU and Tank or PPU and APU all other classes usually come up short in a 1v2 situation. Now the spy has more of a chance to get away than a capped tank... Spies should die if they meet a tank or APU, and be in big big trouble if they meet a PE of their similar level and skill...

Gulinborsti

20-02-04, 16:37

I like Praetorians idea, really!!!

And I don't understand why all spies are whining around about it, THEY have enough INT skillpoints to use the tool, even if it would take a little WPW to use the stealth tools and could still cap another INT subskill :confused: .

It's not a matter of "oh no, not more specialisation", it's more like not getting something powerfull as the stealth tools for free, like Praetorian mentioned in his posts.

I'll try to make my point clear by an example because my english is not good enough to argue in another way:

My main char is a rilfe / hacker PE and I always wanted him to drive all vehicles too. So I had to lower T-C and raise VHC to drive all the lately introduced combat vehicles. I still cap my Pain Easer and can hack OPs. But no more tech rifles, not even snipers.

There's no real Jack-Of-All-Trades class - well, the PE gets close - but hey, Spies are more likely to real allrounders at the moment.

The more things/items/skills a char wants to use, the lower the average quality of this abilities should be.

btw, I don't like and don't understand the idea of sniper rifles needing T-C, but do I care? NO!!! It's a matter of character balancing which has to be down in a way.

bla, bla, ... sorry, I just can't stay on topic ... :angel:

Richard Blade

20-02-04, 16:41

Praetorian, I'm a little late in answering you about my post.
Must be a timezone thing.
I also didn't read the 3 pages of posts that popped up after I went to bed. :angel:

However:
Obliterator DEX 120 INT 95 TC 100
Stealth III DEX 110 INT 85 TC 95
Stealth II DEX 100 INT 75 TC 90
Stealth I DEX 90 INT 65 TC 80

Stealth I is the only stealth that I can call "free" the way you do.
Anything higher than that requires more TC than any weapon that any other class has.
You have to balance PC or RC, TC, and Agility. Some may add vehicle skill or recycle to help their character be more selfsufficient.
That's a lot of DEX points to use up and still have access to high level stealth's. So, if a spy wants to use a high level stealth, he makes sacrifices in vehicle, recycle, and agility. That's not free to me.

Weaponlore from int. Rifles require about 160 or so to aim faster than snail sex. Pistols can probably get by on 85 weaponlore, but more is better if you are trying to compete up front with the big dogs. You die anyway without con so, it probably doesn't matter. To hack an op, 100 is the minimum. A rifle spy can't do anything but hack and weaponlore. A pistol spy can hack and might be able to poke, or build lower level stuff, but will never be "great" at construction or research. Choose one or the other, but it sure as hell isn't free to me.

If a combat spy wants to do tradeskills, they won't be hacking. Even then, they won't be as good as they could be. Certainly not getting the customers that someone with no combat skills who is advertising "200/150 construction plus repair 100/150, ammo recycled too.. Just bring junk."

1. Rifles take more weaponlore than any other gun in the game.
2. Stealth TC requirements make using high level stealth a gimping process. It slows you down, actually limits your con setup if you try to maintain any decent speed.
3. Stealth helps spies compensate for low con, and no choice in armor. Even if they got INQ 1 or Duranit 1, it wouldn't be enough to make up for the low con. This isn't saying it's a perfect replacement either. My spy has been killed while stealthed. DB and Parashock taking effect after being stealthed for 3 seconds put a big damper on getting away.
4. Spies can't get access to it until their base DEX is around 80. They will probably have the DEX imps to get to level one stealth by that time. However, they won't have the agility until they actually reach base level 90, and then, they are probably already straining to reach the next level stealth.

Stealth is good. But it is not "free", nor is it the "god mode" that some people claim.

wolfwood

20-02-04, 16:43

thats idiotic, spies nerf themselves to use ob and steealth 3 with all that excess tech combat AND NOW YOU WANT US TO GET WILLPOWER?

Strych9

20-02-04, 16:44

I will say this much. (I am assuming the thread started wanted WPW to take the place of TC... not to have BOTH WPW and TC)

Right now spies do NOT get it for free. Tech rifle or pistol spies can get Stealth 1 for practically free, but the oblit is FAR from free, and thats the one that really makes a huge difference.

With this change, droners sure as HELL would get it for free. Even the oblit.

Not that I mind, as I am a droner, and my Droner/Constructor would love the ability to use Stealth. Right now it costs a LOT for a droner to use Stealth, even more than it does for a PE or any other type of Spy (okay, unless the PE is a droner PE... hehe).

So this change would make open it up to being used by ALL spies, and ALL PEs. The only people really hurt by this would be the rifle or pistol tradeskill spies. I.e. those that want to research and use rifles.

FirestarXL

20-02-04, 16:58

Well Richard put a few points in his post that I was going to expand on, so I'll just point you in that direction.

BTW, I can see you're getting pissed with the posts going "ONOZ, YUO R TEH EDIOT". Well people always do that. But don't let it detract from the fact that there are many reasonable things which lead to the negative feedback on this idea. You post a thread like this and you must expect feedback from those whom it effects, even if as in my case, I really don't like doing this.

But in summary I will say this - I really feel that stealth is now as balanced as it will ever get. It does not need to be nerfed (that includes extra requirements pointsinks) and it does not need any sort of a boost either.

I feel it is still overpowered as regards PE's using it, but that's not a matter for this thread.

Edit: Just to put it in perspective, here are the current reqs AND times:

Obliterator DEX 120 INT 95 TC 100 (60 Seconds)
Stealth III DEX 110 INT 85 TC 95 (30 Seconds)
Stealth II DEX 100 INT 75 TC 90 (20 Seconds)
Stealth I DEX 90 INT 65 TC 80 (10 Seconds)

A realistic stealth for a combat spy to use without gimpage is Stealth2 - that's twenty seconds. Not unbalanced.

The times and reqs were changed to bring ore of the toos into play - quite rightly no one used to use the oblit.

Praetorian

20-02-04, 16:58

Originally posted by wolfwood
thats idiotic, spies nerf themselves to use ob and steealth 3 with all that excess tech combat AND NOW YOU WANT US TO GET WILLPOWER?

Another genius...

Look, why do you NEED 60 secs of stealth buddy?

And if you use FL or Disruptor you have T-C of 89, the stealth 3 cost 95 = 3 DEX levels... oh yeah, thats nerfing... omg... the pain!

It USED to cost loads more, but not anymore, so basically all (ok that I have to admit) high level spies gets to use one...

Praetorian

20-02-04, 17:02

Originally posted by FirestarXL
Well Richard put a few points in his post that I was going to expand on, so I'll just point you in that direction.

BTW, I can see you're getting pissed with the posts going "ONOZ, YUO R TEH EDIOT". Well people always do that. But don't let it detract from the fact that there are many reasonable things which lead to the negative feedback on this idea. You post a thread like this and you must expect feedback from those whom it effects, even if as in my case, I really don't like doing this.

But in summary I will say this - I really feel that stealth is now as balanced as it will ever get. It does not need to be nerfed (that includes extra requirements pointsinks) and it does not need any sort of a boost either.

I feel it is still overpowered as regards PE's using it, but that's not a matter for this thread.

Ok fair enough, but then what about when you had to put quite a few points more into T-C to use the stealth 3 and oblit? Now you get the stealth 3 for a measly 3 DEX levels (if you use FL and disruptor)... Is that balanced? Is it balanced theres no fee to pay for all the nice things that the tool brings? But I've given up, its clear that the spies dont want this, and the other classes are surprisingly silent in this thread. :)

FirestarXL

20-02-04, 17:16

Originally posted by Praetorian
Ok fair enough, but then what about when you had to put quite a few points more into T-C to use the stealth 3 and oblit? Now you get the stealth 3 for a measly 3 DEX levels (if you use FL and disruptor)... Is that balanced? Is it balanced theres no fee to pay for all the nice things that the tool brings? But I've given up, its clear that the spies dont want this, and the other classes are surprisingly silent in this thread. :)

When that was the case, the majority of serious players simply did not use them - this was the precise stated reason for the changes.

I think there is also some disagreement on the fact that at high levels those three dex levels matter - assuming capping RoF on a disruptor is an unrealistic goal without a kami (at ~220 RC, I don't think anyone disagrees with that), then your goal is to get as high a RoF on your SH as possible - you need EVERY ONE of those points, more than ever at high levels.

And regarding the "nice things", let's assume you do get the stealth3, taking into account the points raised in this thread all it gives you is this: the possibility of getting away from a combat that you probably cannot win. I don't think that one benefit justifies an extra cost beyond what we have now. It is totally, in my opinion, balanced.

Lifewaster

20-02-04, 17:17

My suggestion was always to make Stealth 1 just require 50 TC and 50 willpower along with the dex req.

Stealth 2 can be 60/60 and so on...

The point of this is that you do then actually gimp something, droners will gimp by spending TC , and TC'rs will gimp by spending willpower, and Lowtechs will gimp by spending both.

Then you dont have this imbalance where TC spies are suddenly the best solo pkers due to good weapon damage plus the ability to escape if the fight doesnt suit them.

ps:
To all the ppl who say stealth 1 is just a useless freebie, try giving stealth 1 to every class for free, and see how much fun it is when EVERYONE starts to use it to escape. 10 seconds is a long time in PvP.

Praetorian

20-02-04, 17:22

Originally posted by Richard Blade
Praetorian, I'm a little late in answering you about my post.
Must be a timezone thing.
I also didn't read the 3 pages of posts that popped up after I went to bed. :angel:

However:
Obliterator DEX 120 INT 95 TC 100
Stealth III DEX 110 INT 85 TC 95
Stealth II DEX 100 INT 75 TC 90
Stealth I DEX 90 INT 65 TC 80

Stealth I is the only stealth that I can call "free" the way you do.
Anything higher than that requires more TC than any weapon that any other class has.
You have to balance PC or RC, TC, and Agility. Some may add vehicle skill or recycle to help their character be more selfsufficient.
That's a lot of DEX points to use up and still have access to high level stealth's. So, if a spy wants to use a high level stealth, he makes sacrifices in vehicle, recycle, and agility. That's not free to me.

Ok, so 1 point extra in T-C isnt free (FL, Disruptor), and 3 DEX levels to get stealth 3 isnt going to be any kind of price to pay for 30 seconds of stealth, really...

So that subtracts at most 15 skill points from your other skills, in a place you can get 100*5=500 of it... That is so close to being free... I dont even want to calculate the percentage of it, but you get my idea im sure... :)

Weaponlore from int. Rifles require about 160 or so to aim faster than snail sex. Pistols can probably get by on 85 weaponlore, but more is better if you are trying to compete up front with the big dogs. You die anyway without con so, it probably doesn't matter. To hack an op, 100 is the minimum. A rifle spy can't do anything but hack and weaponlore. A pistol spy can hack and might be able to poke, or build lower level stuff, but will never be "great" at construction or research. Choose one or the other, but it sure as hell isn't free to me.

If a combat spy wants to do tradeskills, they won't be hacking. Even then, they won't be as good as they could be. Certainly not getting the customers that someone with no combat skills who is advertising "200/150 construction plus repair 100/150, ammo recycled too.. Just bring junk."

If you want a combatoriented spy, why do you expect to be a 1337 tradeskiller as well? Makes no sense... If you just hunt mobs, then otoh you can do everything... You could even make a 150'ish CST'er (which will cap all non rares) and still be good at aiming... You'd have to give up on hacking OPs but hey, if you want to be the best at something, then you should make sacrifices... As it is now the stealth device remains close to free for spies...

1. Rifles take more weaponlore than any other gun in the game.
2. Stealth TC requirements make using high level stealth a gimping process. It slows you down, actually limits your con setup if you try to maintain any decent speed.
3. Stealth helps spies compensate for low con, and no choice in armor. Even if they got INQ 1 or Duranit 1, it wouldn't be enough to make up for the low con. This isn't saying it's a perfect replacement either. My spy has been killed while stealthed. DB and Parashock taking effect after being stealthed for 3 seconds put a big damper on getting away.
4. Spies can't get access to it until their base DEX is around 80. They will probably have the DEX imps to get to level one stealth by that time. However, they won't have the agility until they actually reach base level 90, and then, they are probably already straining to reach the next level stealth.

Stealth is good. But it is not "free", nor is it the "god mode" that some people claim.

1. I am aware of that, but again, can a Tank cap his weapons? No, but a spy can... o_O
2. Again, you get 30 seconds of stealth for 15 skill points. (if you use FL bla bla) I am sure you dont get too slow from missing another 5 or less points in AGL...
3. No choice in armor?? We get damn good PAs these days, remember when we had NOTHING? We still made do... Of course if an APU or PPU manages to target you before you stealth, your in trouble, but then isnt that fair? I've been taken down that way myself, but then I was asking for it (OP wars), or got surprised in which case the other classes gets cut down regardless...
4. When you get up there in levels, the stealth devices just fall into your lap when you strive for the better weapons. You do not have to actively try to get it, it will come all by itself. Everything else you need to put points into... Hardly ever with the stealth... (well maybe 3 or 15 skill points but blah...)

Stealth is still too good imho, but Im definatly in the minority I can sense that. So I back down. Fair enough. And no its no godmode, but unless your unlucky or get jumped, you will get away 99% of the time today unlike in the past where you would get killed 99% of the time... Perhaps some place in between is what I'm looking for, or that you'd have to let go of capping aim to get the added effect of NOT having to GR back to base the hard way... :)

Strych9

20-02-04, 17:30

Originally posted by Praetorian
Stealth is still too good imho, but Im definatly in the minority I can sense that. So I back down. Fair enough. And no its no godmode, but unless your unlucky or get jumped, you will get away 99% of the time today unlike in the past where you would get killed 99% of the time... Perhaps some place in between is what I'm looking for, or that you'd have to let go of capping aim to get the added effect of NOT having to GR back to base the hard way... :) Understand though, they go from getting killed all the time to getting away all the time... they didnt go from getting killed to killing.

And the Spy is still a Spy. It still doesnt take much damage to kill them. You catch a spy unready, and they drop a LOT faster than a tank thats not ready.

Also, the only spies that get stealth for free are those that are doing tech weapons. Low tech pistols, low tech rifles, and droners all dont have ANY points in tech combat so going for stealth is VERY expensive. I am aware that those three variants may not be the majority... but you need to keep that in mind when making blanket statements about "spies." If you qualify it and say "tech combat spies" it will be more realistic and perhaps received better. I am sure a droner doesnt like being told they get Stealth "for free."

Praetorian

20-02-04, 17:34

Originally posted by FirestarXL
When that was the case, the majority of serious players simply did not use them - this was the precise stated reason for the changes.

I think there is also some disagreement on the fact that at high levels those three dex levels matter - assuming capping RoF on a disruptor is an unrealistic goal without a kami (at ~220 RC, I don't think anyone disagrees with that), then your goal is to get as high a RoF on your SH as possible - you need EVERY ONE of those points, more than ever at high levels.

And regarding the "nice things", let's assume you do get the stealth3, taking into account the points raised in this thread all it gives you is this: the possibility of getting away from a combat that you probably cannot win. I don't think that one benefit justifies an extra cost beyond what we have now. It is totally, in my opinion, balanced.

Yes thats the point, but because the majority shyed away from using it because they had to use points they wanted elsewhere is not a valid reason to open it up for everyone is it... 3 more points in weapon lore aint gonna change the world.

So tell me, the way it is now, do you expect to kill a tank or apu that attacks you? Do you do that? If you want the added bonus of being able go get (far - 30 secs or more) away, then it should be at a certain cost. And no, 3 more points in weaponlore is not expensive for 30 secs stealth.

There is no worse thing that being killed. You get synaptic impairment, your imps pop out and your armor takes a beating. Now spies get a very very good shot at avoiding all this with a tool that is pratically free. Tell me again why this is balanced, because I dont get it... :confused:

Cyphor

20-02-04, 17:41

lol i thought this thread was going to be a joke then i opened it...

This makes no sense all it will do is remove the gimpage from droners using stealth making them harder to kill, i like the fact droners wont have to gimp as much but this could be fixed easier by giving drone imps a stealth bonus rather than a transport bonus now they've fixed the weight of drones to an extent.

People dont seem to realise stealth isnt just used to escape when close to death, it can be a tool for recon, and getting to places a spy with their low con would otherwise not have access to.

The class that needs stealth the most in this game is pistol and rifle spies, to make it harder for them to use it doesnt make sense, droners need it to an extent but as highlighted in other threads they can be very hard to find as it is and with their new boost it makes them almost overpowered as they can be very efficient killers. Pistol and rifle spies have a weak offence and only the third best offence, why shouldnt they have something extra? Why should they have to gimp themselves to use it? Yes a spy can set themselves up like a pe but why should a class be balanced around this? If i want a pe defence and to play in close combat with rifles and pistols il roll a pe! The classes should all have something unique about them with the exception of the pe. Put a spy requirement on stealth and leave it as it is.

Praetorian

20-02-04, 17:41

Originally posted by Strych9
Understand though, they go from getting killed all the time to getting away all the time... they didnt go from getting killed to killing.

And the Spy is still a Spy. It still doesnt take much damage to kill them. You catch a spy unready, and they drop a LOT faster than a tank thats not ready.

Also, the only spies that get stealth for free are those that are doing tech weapons. Low tech pistols, low tech rifles, and droners all dont have ANY points in tech combat so going for stealth is VERY expensive. I am aware that those three variants may not be the majority... but you need to keep that in mind when making blanket statements about "spies." If you qualify it and say "tech combat spies" it will be more realistic and perhaps received better. I am sure a droner doesnt like being told they get Stealth "for free."

Good valid points, but a spy with sinister intent does not go from being killed to getting away, he goes from sniping you to getting away so he can continue to snipe you if he wants. For (close to) free I might add...

And yes, most classes are in big trouble when they get jumped by other runners... Even tanks... Spies just go down alot faster, true...

I am sorry for making a 'vanilla' statement, I ment tech combat spies... Its true, I was only thinking about the majority. But perhaps theres a reason they are the majority?

Strych9

20-02-04, 17:41

Originally posted by Praetorian
And no, 3 more points in weaponlore is not expensive for 30 secs stealth.How are you getting the trade price of 3 points of weaponlore for 30 second of stealth? Or did you mean some other skill besides weaponlore?

Praetorian

20-02-04, 17:48

Originally posted by Cyphor
lol i thought this thread was going to be a joke then i opened it...

This makes no sense all it will do is remove the gimpage from droners using stealth making them harder to kill, i like the fact droners wont have to gimp as much but this could be fixed easier by giving drone imps a stealth bonus rather than a transport bonus now they've fixed the weight of drones to an extent.

People dont seem to realise stealth isnt just used to escape when close to death, it can be a tool for recon, and getting to places a spy with their low con would otherwise not have access to.

The class that needs stealth the most in this game is pistol and rifle spies, to make it harder for them to use it doesnt make sense, droners need it to an extent but as highlighted in other threads they can be very hard to find as it is and with their new boost it makes them almost overpowered as they can be very efficient killers. Pistol and rifle spies have a weak offence and only the third best offence, why shouldnt they have something extra? Why should they have to gimp themselves to use it? Yes a spy can set themselves up like a pe but why should a class be balanced around this? If i want a pe defence and to play in close combat with rifles and pistols il roll a pe! The classes should all have something unique about them with the exception of the pe. Put a spy requirement on stealth and leave it as it is.

Oh well... Seems I'm still not making myself clear...

Yes spies ADORE the stealth, who wouldnt... Need it? No. Do they chose to go 'tech weapon spy', then they get it for FREE (nearly)...

Ever fought a spy with stealth and a silent hunter?

Strych9

20-02-04, 17:49

Originally posted by Praetorian
Good valid points, but a spy with sinister intent does not go from being killed to getting away, he goes from sniping you to getting away so he can continue to snipe you if he wants. For (close to) free I might add...You are correct, but how big of a deal is that?

The sniper without stealth still has a GOOD chance of killing you should you chose to go after him. Stealth or not, if you see a sniper a ways off and run at him, he still has a great chance of dropping you.

Should you choose to avoid the sniper, the stealth doesnt help him track you down any better. A tank that gets shot once, and then runs to avoid the sniper, wont be hurt any more by the fact that the sniper stealths.

The only time that the stealth comes into play is if the sniper engages the target at a distance or in a situation where the target has a realistic chance to getting to them and killing them AND the target goes after the sniper AND the target attacks the sniper. In THOSE cases, the sniper might now be able to get away and snipe again instead of being found and dying.

But I am not sure that those situations warrant a changing of the stealth system. There are a lot of planets that have to line up before you can claim the spy has an unfair advantage uniquely because of stealth.

You ask if someone ever fought a spy with a Silent Hunter and stealth- see, now you are no longer dealing with a majority.

Praetorian

20-02-04, 17:50

Originally posted by Strych9
How are you getting the trade price of 3 points of weaponlore for 30 second of stealth? Or did you mean some other skill besides weaponlore?

damnit i ment R-C... Sorry about that... :confused:

Praetorian

20-02-04, 17:54

Originally posted by Strych9
You are correct, but how big of a deal is that?

The sniper without stealth still has a GOOD chance of killing you should you chose to go after him. Stealth or not, if you see a sniper a ways off and run at him, he still has a great chance of dropping you.

Should you choose to avoid the sniper, the stealth doesnt help him track you down any better. A tank that gets shot once, and then runs to avoid the sniper, wont be hurt any more by the fact that the sniper stealths.

The only time that the stealth comes into play is if the sniper engages the target at a distance or in a situation where the target has a realistic chance to getting to them and killing them AND the target goes after the sniper AND the target attacks the sniper. In THOSE cases, the sniper might now be able to get away and snipe again instead of being found and dying.

But I am not sure that those situations warrant a changing of the stealth system. There are a lot of planets that have to line up before you can claim the spy has an unfair advantage uniquely because of stealth.

You ask if someone ever fought a spy with a Silent Hunter and stealth- see, now you are no longer dealing with a majority.

I was just raising one of many good things about being able to stealth. My point is: You get it for free. Is it fair? I dont think so. Its a no-brainer advantage you can have for free if you, like the majority, use tech weapons...

Strych9

20-02-04, 18:13

Originally posted by Praetorian
I was just raising one of many good things about being able to stealth. My point is: You get it for free. Is it fair? I dont think so. Its a no-brainer advantage you can have for free if you, like the majority, use tech weapons... Sounds like you are hung up on the cost of it, and seeing it as a new gift.

Just imagine stealth was always there. Nothing new. Just something that spies get.

Is it still unfair?

In other words, forget about the cost, and look to see how it plays out.

MOST people, I think, consider it to bring spies into balance with the defense mechanisms everyone else already has, for free.

Now if it unbalances things and makes spies, overall, BETTER than yeah, it should cost something.

But its my understanding that originally, stealth was introduced because spies in combat were at a distinct disadvantage. Stealth brought them up to even.

So with that reasoning, should being even cost extra?

Praetorian

20-02-04, 18:31

Originally posted by Strych9
Sounds like you are hung up on the cost of it, and seeing it as a new gift.

Just imagine stealth was always there. Nothing new. Just something that spies get.

Is it still unfair?

In other words, forget about the cost, and look to see how it plays out.

MOST people, I think, consider it to bring spies into balance with the defense mechanisms everyone else already has, for free.

Now if it unbalances things and makes spies, overall, BETTER than yeah, it should cost something.

But its my understanding that originally, stealth was introduced because spies in combat were at a distinct disadvantage. Stealth brought them up to even.

So with that reasoning, should being even cost extra?

Perhaps Im really biased because I was there before stealth, I was there when stealth cost more in T-C than you got naturally from tech weapons, i was there when you got drug haze, and now I have returned from a long period of inactivity (work) and see that I got a free upgrade from stealth 2 to 3 for nothing. No drug haze either... So I tradeskill, but I still hold my own when hunting mobs, only 1xx/1xx gives me trouble... So it costs me nothing. Well, it makes spies ALOT better now we have cheap stealth, I just feel its too good. It should have some kind of downside, as it is now, it really hasnt...

Sefran

20-02-04, 18:33

Bad idea, next thing remove stealth? spies will be usefull then really....

FirestarXL

20-02-04, 18:34

Yes, Strych is taking the words out of my mouth here - forget the fact it was added afterwards, it, or its equivalent should have been there from the start. It's the spy thing, it's part of the bullet point list you could use to describe a class - it is and should continue to be a tool which becomes accessible as part of the natural spy development. Not an addition like vehicles, but a core compenent. This is where our opinions are polar opposites.

Let me express the way I see it in this manner:

PE's:

Can deal average damage (50/100)
Have superb defence (80/100)
Have limited access to stealth

Spies

Can deal reasonable damage (60/100)
Have poor defence (50/100)
Has full access to stealth

Tanks

Can deal excellent damage (85/100)
Have superb defence (80/100)
Has no access to stealth

APU Monks

Can deal best damage (100/100)
Have poor defence (45/100)
Has no access to stealth

PPU Monks

Can deal marginal damage (5/100)
Have best defence (100/100)
Has no access to stealth

----------

Remove the lines referring to stealth and that's why I think it needs to be there, as a core part of the spy class.

Edit: Drug haze is unchanged, but it's based on time since your last stealth - use stealth1 in a row and you will see it same as ever - but is almost unnoticalbe on higher ones.

Bl@zed

20-02-04, 18:34

spies get these gadgets, they are the masters of technology. That is why they get these things, to compensate for shitty defence (like a pure sniping rifle spy). My spy takes 2 bursts of cs, with the new boost, and im done. If i can't use stealth effectivly i might as well kill self and make another char :rolleyes:

Strych9

20-02-04, 18:40

Originally posted by Praetorian
Perhaps Im really biased because I was there before stealth, I was there when stealth cost more in T-C than you got naturally from tech weapons, i was there when you got drug haze, and now I have returned from a long period of inactivity (work) and see that I got a free upgrade from stealth 2 to 3 for nothing. No drug haze either... So I tradeskill, but I still hold my own when hunting mobs, only 1xx/1xx gives me trouble... So it costs me nothing. Well, it makes spies ALOT better now we have cheap stealth, I just feel its too good. It should have some kind of downside, as it is now, it really hasnt... I understand what you are saying. But the reason, I think, it really doesnt have a downside is that it is seen as a balancing agent, not a toy or a bonus.

Without stealth we used to have serious discussions that Spies simply werent made for the battlefield (that was also before the sniper rifles existed). And even still with stealth, the idea remains that a Spies body should not really be in combat too much. Droning, sniping, stealthing- all gives rise to the idea that the body of the spy is weak, so they have ways to compensate.

Now maybe with sniper rifles and droning allowing spies to stay out of the close combat, stealth wasnt needed. Thats an argument that can easily be made I think.

But stealth is here, and its here because it was viewed as a mechanism to bring spies on par with other classes. If that is in fact the view that the devs took, then I think it wouldnt make sense to "charge" spies for something that makes them "even" with other classes.

But like I said before, if the idea is to change the reqs from TC to WPW, that wont do much to rectify the situation if you think its flawed. With WPW instead of TC, droners would have it easier... easier because ALL droners, dedicated or not, have overspecced WPW for sure. My droner is a constructor/droner, and constructs at an uber/rare/quality cap level, and he will have 140 in WPW when capped. So for droners, its will be even easier than it is now for tech rifle/pistol users.

So bring on the change. :)

Zaq

20-02-04, 18:48

Originally posted by Praetorian
... now I have returned from a long period of inactivity (work) and see that I got a free upgrade from stealth 2 to 3 for nothing...

yes but they reduced the times a couple of patches ago, so that "free" upgrade doesn't count for much.

I've read most of this thread but I still don't understand why are you asking for a nerf here. take a look at the rating of this thread and you'll see that people don't like the idea of being nerfed for no reason.

SorkZmok

20-02-04, 19:11

Originally posted by Praetorian
1. I am aware of that, but again, can a Tank cap his weapons? No, but a spy can... o_O
2. Again, you get 30 seconds of stealth for 15 skill points. (if you use FL bla bla) I am sure you dont get too slow from missing another 5 or less points in AGL...
3. No choice in armor?? We get damn good PAs these days, remember when we had NOTHING? We still made do... Of course if an APU or PPU manages to target you before you stealth, your in trouble, but then isnt that fair? I've been taken down that way myself, but then I was asking for it (OP wars), or got surprised in which case the other classes gets cut down regardless...
4. When you get up there in levels, the stealth devices just fall into your lap when you strive for the better weapons. You do not have to actively try to get it, it will come all by itself. Everything else you need to put points into... Hardly ever with the stealth... (well maybe 3 or 15 skill points but blah...)

Stealth is still too good imho, but Im definatly in the minority I can sense that. So I back down. Fair enough. And no its no godmode, but unless your unlucky or get jumped, you will get away 99% of the time today unlike in the past where you would get killed 99% of the time... Perhaps some place in between is what I'm looking for, or that you'd have to let go of capping aim to get the added effect of NOT having to GR back to base the hard way... :)
1. A tank can throw all of his STR into h-c. Without any problems. Afaik that caps a CS rof or at least gets very close to it. Well you cant cap aiming but CS aiming is still damn good. Actually its even better than FL aiming. o_O A spy has to put points into r-c, t-c and agl. And maybe he likes a tradeskill too. If i want to cap FL rof, my runspeed will be gimped and my resists will be pure shit. Stealth is just fair then.
2. See above.
3. As 90% of all damage types are mainly enr attack, the pa doesnt help that much. Well yeah, theres the heavy enr belt. Awesome 70 enr armor. Thats not that much. Also you have to badly gimp yourself to also get some fire resists. Stealth is just fair then.
4. Wheres the fucking problem with that? I just don't get it. The only change that would make some sense imo is a timer between stealthing.

And about those "getting away 99% of the time"...NEVER. If you get jumped on, chances are good your legs are broken before you even got your tool out. Also theres lag, bad netcode, bad luck, para, damageboost and more.

Darth Slayer

20-02-04, 19:17

Actually a good idea, should see off Stealth whore PE's.......:D

Richard Blade

20-02-04, 19:25

Ok, so 1 point extra in T-C isnt free (FL, Disruptor), and 3 DEX levels to get stealth 3 isnt going to be any kind of price to pay for 30 seconds of stealth, really...

So that subtracts at most 15 skill points from your other skills, in a place you can get 100*5=500 of it... That is so close to being free... I dont even want to calculate the percentage of it, but you get my idea im sure...

My bad, not enough Mt. Dew to open my eyes. Yes, I should have said Stealth 2. However, I still hold to my opinion that rifles require much more "dedication" = gimping. If you want to be the best you can, those point distributions are tighter than a ducks ass. (watertight) :D
I seem to recall that you get 525 points.
180 = (131 + imps) points are needed to cap PC damage but not rate of fire.
85 = (62 + imps) points are needed for agility the rest will balance out at 100 = (82 + imps) TC. This also includes the DEX setup for using the 115 level armor. Those numbers = 525.
It's been a while since I worked a rifle spy, but I don't think the 180 is enough to cap rof on the top two rares.
Remember RoF = Damage. If you can't cap RoF, you don't do the max potential damage. This is part of the cost of stealth.

If you want a combatoriented spy, why do you expect to be a 1337 tradeskiller as well? Makes no sense... If you just hunt mobs, then otoh you can do everything... You could even make a 150'ish CST'er (which will cap all non rares) and still be good at aiming... You'd have to give up on hacking OPs but hey, if you want to be the best at something, then you should make sacrifices... As it is now the stealth device remains close to free for spies...

I said, "Choose one or the other."

1. I am aware of that, but again, can a Tank cap his weapons? No, but a spy can...
2. Again, you get 30 seconds of stealth for 15 skill points. (if you use FL bla bla) I am sure you dont get too slow from missing another 5 or less points in AGL...
3. No choice in armor?? We get damn good PAs these days, remember when we had NOTHING? We still made do... Of course if an APU or PPU manages to target you before you stealth, your in trouble, but then isnt that fair? I've been taken down that way myself, but then I was asking for it (OP wars), or got surprised in which case the other classes gets cut down regardless...
4. When you get up there in levels, the stealth devices just fall into your lap when you strive for the better weapons. You do not have to actively try to get it, it will come all by itself. Everything else you need to put points into... Hardly ever with the stealth... (well maybe 3 or 15 skill points but blah...)

1. Tanks don't "need" to cap aiming. They cap damage on the second most deadly weapons in the game. APU being the most. err, before this last nerf.

2. I reiterate that the points required to use the high level stealth, and come "close" to capping your weapon, and run at a decent rate makes up the value of your "cost" of stealth.

3. Ok, spy armor is very nice. I should have stated something like, "our lack of resists". But, even then it becomes more of a nacessity (sp) than an option.
Oh yeah, if you get nailed it's time to drop. I can't disagree there.

4. The act of getting 120 DEX and 100 TC, meaning that you are fully capped.... Isn't that payment enough?
I know that you will say it isn't. So, I again say that setting up for those tools gimps a spy, when he is already gimped for combat anyway. Otherwise, you can go without stealth, choose the STR setup and become a mini-but-oh-so-dead-anyway-Private Eye.

As to your other comment, it sucks to be on the flame side of so many people. Some people just don't get it.
I hope you don't take any of what I said as a flame, or hostile. It's been a fun excercise in brain usage. Something I don't get very often right now. :D

MjukisDjur

20-02-04, 19:44

willpower my ass. shut that pie hole at once

cRazy2003

20-02-04, 23:18

dont like the idea im afraid

Drake6k

20-02-04, 23:36

Originally posted by leGit v. 2
agree.. whatever will nerf stealthers

ditto

TWOK

21-02-04, 00:34

High end stealth is FREE??
Having the lowest constitution level and armour ( besides PA ) that gives NO usefull resists is fair payment. Get a clue pls
:rolleyes:

kane

21-02-04, 00:36

Only nerf should be put on made for spys only and thats it maybe other kinds need some news tools too buy spys got crap armor I died like 2 hits lol and my str and con capped and all my str but like 15 points put into resist force.

greendonkeyuk

21-02-04, 02:46

shit idea. spies dont need nerfing.

Lifewaster

21-02-04, 02:47

Just a question.

If this change happened, and stealth did require an actual pointsink skill , how many of you stealthers would still use it?

Probably still most of them, doesnt that tell you something about just how effective it actually is.

I'm hearing figures of 99% escape rates for stealth users. Which is pretty sick, even a PPU couldnt claim that ratio of defense.

Then considering a PPU cant pull out a SH or FL and kill you back after he gets away, or after he sneaks up on you , it does seem even more of a current unbalance.

Netphreak

21-02-04, 03:29

BombShell

21-02-04, 03:47

real bad idea spys need cloak to find a new position with out being detected with their sniper rifles.

but even thou spys are ment for that thay need more. i can care less for holovest. unless its a bush barrel or trashcan.

and intergrated into pa3 like tanks

and when u stand still holovest kicks in and u turn into a bush. but when u move it deactivates

and shrenk the target box as a object to a size of a weecrab making it harder to track them.

and showing as a bush and having ur weapon out it shows ur weapon so peeps can identfie it when spys are shooting someone.

things that spies need to.
-Darnit into dex armor
-bones other then gamma bones req change to its type like ath as leg req turned into con req.
-adding -5psi to all PA's of spys so thay dont use shelter with drugs only if thay get darnit as dex armor.

-these will help toen the spy. even thou the inq armor setup defence is stronger but as a spy this setup will give mroe bang for ur buck.

specail features- drones need slots

i hav more on weapons but am waiting to see wut lupus has hold for them and I am trusting his methods :)

the best way i can nerf the cloak is 1 thing. hav it debuff ur char when u use it.

like as a PE u hav shelter and heal going and in a battle u are almost died u use it to be a stealth whore and poof ur defence is gone and healing is gone to making u hav to heal and buff while the other guy healing to.

for spies it will hardly effect them.

making this a actual defence tool.
so no heal and cloak
no offence attack from behind at full buff with out being seen.

Estabin

21-02-04, 04:49

I am a pure offensive rifle spy, I drop pretty darn fast if I am caught with my pants down... hunting or if I am sniping at someone and someone comes up behind me. I can't fight toe to toe with APUs or Tanks, I can against certain PEs and Spys but I am not built for that really so I don't mind. That seems fairly balanced to me.

I say no to your idea, it wouldn't really affect me to be honost since I would just LOM from hacking to Willpower... plenty of hackers in my clan... heck most of the monks in my clan have a high hacking for OPs since most of the OP fights are monks and tanks now.

As far as I can tell OP fights aren't decided by who has the most stealthing PEs or Spies so what is the beef? Most of the people who coin the phrase "stealthing whores" or "stealthing cowards", what is your problem? Having trouble ganking people? Don't want a little challange? Are spies supposed to be the whipping boys of Neocron or something?

It seems in game most people have no trouble with taking down stealthers, the stealther either gets killed or eventually leaves... most of the tough gankers I have seen have been tanks and PEs, in fact one of the best PE gankers I have seen is a low tech rifle PE with massive run speed, he doesn't use stealth and is deadly with a Pain Easer... in my opinion spies don't make the best gankers or 1 on 1 fighters and they definately don't decide OP fights... so where exactly is the unbalance? :confused:

BombShell

21-02-04, 04:55

Originally posted by Estabin
I am a pure offensive rifle spy, I drop pretty darn fast if I am caught with my pants down... hunting or if I am sniping at someone and someone comes up behind me. I can't fight toe to toe with APUs or Tanks, I can against certain PEs and Spys but I am not built for that really so I don't mind. That seems fairly balanced to me.

I say no to your idea, it wouldn't really affect me to be honost since I would just LOM from hacking to Willpower... plenty of hackers in my clan... heck most of the monks in my clan have a high hacking for OPs since most of the OP fights are monks and tanks now.

As far as I can tell OP fights aren't decided by who has the most stealthing PEs or Spies so what is the beef? Most of the people who coin the phrase "stealthing whores" or "stealthing cowards", what is your problem? Having trouble ganking people? Don't want a little challange? Are spies supposed to be the whipping boys of Neocron or something?

It seems in game most people have no trouble with taking down stealthers, the stealther either gets killed or eventually leaves... most of the tough gankers I have seen have been tanks and PEs, in fact one of the best PE gankers I have seen is a low tech rifle PE with massive run speed, he doesn't use stealth and is deadly with a Pain Easer... in my opinion spies don't make the best gankers or 1 on 1 fighters and they definately don't decide OP fights... so where exactly is the unbalance? :confused:

we all understand y spies r stealthing whores :) its the Pe that shouldnt be doin that thayhav the defence but not the skill.