View Full Version : Complete Outpost Re-Work
Ok. This thread is all about Outposts, their effectiveness and their defence/attack.
Firstly I’ll say that about half of these ideas are mine, the other half have been semi scrounged off of other people. This is just putting them all together in one massive melt-pot of uberness.
Add a new part to the citycomm under the outpost management, the place where you change Genrep/turret settings, which controls what your OPs do. You can only choose one of the settings…. most OPs would have two or more settings under these ideas. This new section also lists the amount of Warbots you own, the amount of Gen-Tanks you own, the amount of Missiles you own, how many KV of electricity you have stored and how much “Raw materials” you own. By the way, you have to read the whole thing; otherwise you won’t understand most of the ideas. Additionally the timescale are all in REAL hours, not the screwy Neocron time.
Factories can:
Give off the +50 bonus as per usual.
Produce Weapons or Vehicles. A “weapon/vehicle name Mass Production Blueprint” is placed in a new container in the underground. Every hour the Factory produces one of the weapons/vehicles named in the mass production blueprint until the clans “Raw Materials” runs out. The produced weapons are put into other new containers in the Factory underground and the factory can store up to 500 weapons/Vehicle keys before it has to stop. Each weapon takes up 1 “Raw Material” and each vehicle takes up 3 “Raw Materials”. Please note that the Blueprint is NOT used up in the production. If there is not enough “Raw Materials” then the process stops and the production is lost.
Produce Warbots (***). A Warbot takes up 5 “Raw materials” to make and takes two hours per Warbot. Using the new menu in the Citycomm you can assign a number of Warbots (Up to 10) to any of the OPs that you currently own. They will patrol inside of the OP. It takes an hour for every zone between your factory and the outpost you want to send the Warbots to for them to arrive. If there is not enough “Raw Materials” then the process stops and the production is lost.
Labs can:
Give the +50 bonus as per usual
Produce “Mass production Blueprint”. A weapon or Vehicle key is placed in a new container in the underground of the OP. A weapon takes 24 hours to Blueprint and a vehicle takes 48 hours. To create a “Mass production Blueprint” you need a “KV (Kilo-Volt) of electricity” per hour. If there is not enough “KVs” then the process stops and the research is lost.
Produce Gen-Tanks (***). A Gen-Tank takes up 5 “KV of electricity” to make and takes two hours per Gen-Tank. Using the new menu in the Citycomm you can assign a number of Gen-Tanks (Up to 10) to any of the OPs that you currently own. They will patrol inside of the OP. It takes an hour for every zone between your factory and the outpost you want to send the Gen-Tanks to for them to arrive. If there is not enough “KV of electricity” then the process stops and the production is lost.
Fortresses’ can:
Give the +50 bonus as per usual
Produce Munitions. A piece of Ammo is placed in a new container in the underground. Every hour 50 clips of that ammo are produced and appear in another container in the underground. Every 50 clips take 1 “Raw material” to produce.
Produce Missiles. Every 48 hours the OP produces a Cluster-Missile. It takes 10 “Raw Materials” and 10 “KV of electricity” to produce a missile. In the new Menu a missile can be targeted at any non-safezone on the map (yes including Plaza/Via Rosso when DoY comes out). It takes 48 hours for the Missile to be readied and finally fired. The missile is equivalent to five capped moonstriker blasts in a circle radius followed by five capped holy firestorms where the moonstriker blasts hit.
Mines can:
Give the +50 bonus as per usual
Produce Raw Materials. The mine produces a “Raw material” every hour.
Uplink’s can:
Give the +50 bonus as per usual
Intercept communications. Any members of the clan can hear one other faction’s ‘Faction Chat’ and the Clan is given messages when anything happens/changes at that Factions OPs. For example if a CA clan are monitoring BD’s OPs then they would hear when one of BD’s fortresses starts making a missile or starts producing Munitions. Basically any feature that has been described above is mentioned in Clan Chat like “turret destroyed” messages are now. They also know where the missile is pointed when its set for launch.
Bleed Electricity. The Uplink bleeds electricity off from various other OPs or either of the Cities themselves. It produces 1 “KV of electricity” per hour.
Now… here is the scrounged part. This is mainly Rade’s idea. But the original idea comes from another MMORPG so I don’t think he’ll mind me blagging it as it works so well with the other ideas.
The hack terminals in OPs are not able to be hacked, nor are any of the OP turrets able to be killed, until a hacker places a slow acting Virus through the Citycomm (or hacknet when it comes out) to the OP. This OP will be marked as having a slow acting virus and it can contract no more. The slow acting virus lasts for 24 hours then the Hack terminal is able to be hacked as per normal. Another Virus cannot be placed on the OP for another 24 hours. And four hours after the Hack terminal is hackable it goes back to being invulnerable, this gives a window of four hours for the OP war to take place in.
Now for a working example:
BD have a stock of missiles. They set one to fire at Plaza 1 (assuming DoY has come). A CA clan monitoring BD’s OPs hear this over their Uplink which is monitoring communications. They place a slow acting virus on the Fortresses Hack terminal and start production of Tanks in their factory (having previously made a Mass production BP). They only have 9 Raw Materials left due to production of High level PPU spells to get some high slots so it makes 3 Tanks over 3 hours. Black dragon however have 15 KV of electricity so they produce 3 Gen-Tanks over 6 hours. They then assign the Gen-Tanks to defend their Fortress, it takes them ten hours to walk there (ten zones) but they arrive easily in time.
After the 24 hours the Viri allows the turrets to be killed and Hack terminal hacked on the Black Dragon OP. CA mass outside the OP with their three tanks and BD mass inside the OP with their three Gen-Tanks and Turrets. CA attack and BD manage to hold them off for the assigned four hours then CA crawl off licking their wounds as the OP is un-hackable and the turrets are all invincible once more. Unfortunately CA forget to warn people about the missile and twenty hours (24 – 4 for the OP war) after the OP war finished the Cluster missile slams into Plaza 1 wiping out most of the inhabitants.
I hope that this is all clear…. it took me quite a while to both think up then write up I can tell you. Well…. what do you guys think?
Thank you very much. :)
Anything that anyone wants to add or discuss?
jj dynomite
18-02-04, 02:23
Good idea. If it were intermixed with my idea i think it would rock....
Here's my idea for those that don't know about it.
http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87168
Dammit.... I knew there was something that I had forgotten. I did mean to include most of your ideas in there jj. They are t3h pwn.
jj dynomite
18-02-04, 02:27
Hehe...np man....glad i'm here to help
I voted yes.
I don;t agree with you to a higher detail but something along the lines for which you descibe would make better usage of the outposts in the game.
Be warned there has been several threads along this line in the past and nothing has been changed since. I'm talking in the year and a half i've been playing also.
Which parts don't you agree with Motice?
I like everything except the speed of the virus. I think it should be somewhere around 12 hours, 18 tops. 24 is just to long.
Even with that, 5 stars.
Been meaning to post something like this idea below for awhile, but this seems like a good time.
Perhaps rather then having uplinks give Kilo's, you could introduce a new type of op to give the electricity. Underwater ops. They would have like 2 entrances. One would have to be defended with turrets and melee tanks (they can use their weapons under water) and the other would be a long tunnel running from land into the op (the op itself and the tunnel would be "dry", while the other entrance would be like an airlock sort of thing).
Yes. 5 stars. Beautiful.
Too beautiful to happen : (
5 stars.Would definately feel like you're actually doing something (creating a lasting effect) plus waaay more strategy. Too tough to implement...and to quote someone else...
Yes. 5 stars. Beautiful.
ZoneVortex
18-02-04, 04:17
omfg
oh my god
E GAD
<3
i like it
so much
that i
have to keep
taking breaths to type hence
the lines
YES, PLEASE, READ THIS KK! READ THIS! READ THIS! READ THIS! READ THIS! READ THIS! READ THIS! READ THIS!
Neocron is a great game but the OP system is total garbage. If KK would consider even a few of the many excellent suggestions the community has proposed, the game would benefit greatly.
Prodigious
18-02-04, 04:38
its ok but you seriously need t rethink construction rates etc to make it work smooth, need more than 1 material per hour from mines etc,
great idea but is hard t implement/wont happen.
i dont know, im tired
going bed
ill re-read it tomoro if its near top of topics ;)
night all
jesus my eyes r closin already
SEINS! SEINS!!!!!
(My new word)
5 stars. Yes.
Heavyporker
18-02-04, 11:02
I'm sorry, I really don't like those ideas. While they got some element of "neatness" and "coolness" its just not at all practicable or proper for Neocron.
Non-DoY controlling Warbots... yeesh. Worse yet, breeding Gentanks 0_o Not at all. Toss that out completely.
Automatic weapon/vehicle production, while interesting, would completely fuck the economy up, and make smaller clans yet further weaker (considering the superclans' multiple outposts, the smaller clan's difficulty of getting even a single outpost, much less the ability to supply it)
The virus thingie for shutting down OP anti-hack defenses could be lifted and put into game, though, especially with Hacknet coming.
5 stars.
I also think that clans should be encouraged to take OPs in their factions territory. For example, it should be VERY difficult for an enemy of TG to take Cycrow or Grant, and VERY difficult for an enemy of CA to take Jeriko, etc
nice ideas.. but can we please stop with the Gen-Tank breeding :(
It makes me feel like a "Sale in S-Mart"
[yes I know, according to story line I am, but still]
I'm impressed with how thorough your idea is but i have a couple of points i'd like to make:
1) Your idea would disadvantage most factions who struggle to hold even 1 op at the moment due to lack of numbers. You're saying that once they capture an op they also need to capture 2 (mine + uplink) more to even stand a chance of successfuly defending it.
2) Your idea naturally advantages big clans who hold many ops. They will have the ability to maximise defences on all of their ops. Who want to have to kill 10 warbots (each one of them warninig the owning clan that they are under attack) inside of an op before they are able to get into the hack room?
Just my 2 cents
I voted maybe.
I play mostly on Venus and these ideas seem not to be that adapted for this server.
Our GMs have implemented a system of secret labs for some factions.
I guess that many clans will want to find and rule these labs as they can allow the production of stuff we don't find that easily.
Moreover, OP wars are not the main interest on Venus. They are important and we have great fights, but we also have so many animations that we don't need to give more interest to OP wars IMO.
At last, some factions will never be able to have OPs unless they hire CMs to guard them (or another faction but it is supposed to be part of the CMs role, no ?). These features seem to be adapted to big clans, and that would give them advantages compared to smaller clans. It would widen the gap between the Big ones and the Small ones.
So maybe on some servers, but not on Venus please ;)
angelsenior
18-02-04, 14:01
I must say that you have some good ideas there but some points could be changed;
-mines should produce raw materials at a rate which provides enough material for 80-90% of the outposts (there is not enough for everyone to go round and trading/fighting for them becomes necessary).
-the raw materials should be delivered by truck from the mine to the outpost who needs it (driven by runners from the clan).
Intercepting these trucks would be fun indeed!
these runs could be broadcasted automatically on the faction channel some time before (to give something to listen for from uplinks).
-only lower tl weapons should be mass produceable at outposts so that it doesnt give an overwhelming advantage (couple this with higher weapons/items degradation/quality loss to create a need for these weapons).
-warbots are a good type of mob for production but i think that warbots should stay as they are and instead have each faction have its own kind of warbot (gives more faction identity) in a few different versions.
No need for gen-tank production with these different types of bots to chose from (anyway, producing a gen-tank is more difficult as its almost human so it needs training/education which takes too much time here, and the runners fulfill this role themselves).
The bots should degrade over time so that they dont stay indefinitely in the game.
-the missiles should take a week to build instead of 48 hours and instead of the effect you describe, i would use it in this way:
they can only be targeted against outposts
Everything in the zone (runners, mobs, turrets) when the missile hits it loses 50% of its life instantly and gets a minor radiation damage over time for the following 4 hours, thus the missile makes an outpost weaker so attackers can take them a bit easier.
the missile also destroys a part of all products/raw materials in stock at the outpost.
Missile and virus must be initiated at same time (24 hours before) to give effect at the same moment as the OP becomes hackable, but not necessarily.
-there should be a possibility of raiding an outpost (ie attacking it, steal some of its goods/production/raw materials but not hack ownership of it) and missiles could be used to weaken the OP for such an occasion.
This gives a reason for runners to regularly check upon outposts for defence etc.., also, the more outposts you have the more difficult to stop such raiding parties (ie defend all outposts).
@vortice, giving ideas here is worth the effort, some have already made it into the game (the SI free GR for the owning clan to outposts is an example of this).
the travel distance between outposts and the city should make outposts more viable closer to your base and to the mine.
Clownst0pper
18-02-04, 14:12
Strangly like it.
Just restrict the warbots to having a maximum of 2.
Any more and its pointless, there already pretty good against spys/pe's.
10 walking around an OP would be insane.
Or, make them 120/120 and make them the little sizewarbots, like the malfunctioning one.
Otherwise, really good.
5stars
Originally posted by angelsenior
-the raw materials should be delivered by truck from the mine to the outpost who needs it (driven by runners from the clan).
Intercepting these trucks would be fun indeed!
You been playing too much planetside :D
There is nothing majorly wrong with out posts atm, except op wars seem to have turned into a large zerg fest and ninja hacking.
Also the whole production thing is far to much like an RTS game.
Solution to ninja hacking...make the op's better defendable maybe with fixed camera positions the clan owners can look though to see if it's just 1 person pissing them off, or a load of people serious about taking the op. Turrets that would fend off a lone hacker or two.
Solution to zerg fest....Get rid of war zones and make the clan wars mean something across all zones. IE if you ain't at war, you lose SL.
angelsenior
18-02-04, 14:40
it may surprise you, BITeme, but ive never played planetside (when it came out, shortly before SWG came out, i choose to try SWG instead).
If you want fps only, go play CS, medal of honour, battlefield 1942, UT2003 etc...
MMORPG is about playing a role and achieving some purpose through it, these ideas give interests beside just pure combat.
If its too ligthly done, you will indeed get the big difference between bigger and smaller clans, while if it takes a bit of effort you are limited in how much you can do, thus how much outposts you can keep producing.
Q`alooaith
18-02-04, 14:43
I like half of the general idea..
One thing.. When a neutral hacker hack's a layer, or any hacker for that matter turret's should instantly agro him and any non clan runner's in the area.... just a thought..
Clan wars will add RolePlay..Once you have RP'd the war or whatever how do you take an op?...erm......yea.......you blow shit up with an FPS interface.
I do more than my share of RP, but once the battle has commenced there is no time for RP.
RTS.......producing minerals to make weapons to fight other people who have produced minerals to make weapons.....
Also under the origonal posters scheme the rich will get richer, the poor will still be poor.
To people who say op's don't have a purpose right now I suggest you move to a low population faction, and try GR'ing to all your favourite spots. The money is not insignificant as well if you can hold enough ops for long enough and there is always prestige of having your faction colours splattered all over the map.
Op wars atm are broken, but changing what the ops do and how they work (ala planetside) will not cure it.
Making them easier to defend and making the clan wars in citycom mean something on the battlefield will.
DestructionUK
18-02-04, 14:58
i liked and voted yes to 90% of it
1. if missiles were only targetable against OP's
2. raw materials and electricity were stats in the citycom
3. WB's or some other kind of high lvl sentry robot were limited in number say on rank (2 80/80 guards 4 50/50) or somthing like that
4. not to sure on the virus taking 24 hours to enable hacking
other than those points great rework and makes OP's somthing really worth fighting for whilst not a nessesity for smaller clans/guilds, 5 stars.
OK... well the reason that I had missile being able to fire at the city was because it would give a real feel of danger, if you know that you could be hit by a rocket if CA or any of the other factions don't do their jobs. And tbh with you if it hit plaza, your dead once thats it. Its not a major thing, it would be better to coreograph the missil launch with you attack of an OP.
I was going to think of some way of having materials transported to the OP etc etc, but I decided that I really couldn't think of an easy way to do that.... its just too complicated for what it needs.
The reason that the slow acting virus takes so long is because then both sides have a chance to get a good sized force together and have a proper fight.
2. raw materials and electricity were stats in the citycom
They are. :)
Also under the origonal posters scheme the rich will get richer, the poor will still be poor.
Very cyberpunkish don't you think? :)
Just restrict the warbots to having a maximum of 2.
Yeah, it was like, 1 oclock when I posted that and I wasn't really thinking. 10 warbots would be insane.
-mines should produce raw materials at a rate which provides enough material for 80-90% of the outposts (there is not enough for everyone to go round and trading/fighting for them becomes necessary).
Yeah, i couldn't remeber how many mines there were, it might be a better idea to have them produce two or three raw materials per hour or something... also the tradable materials idea is good. As long as its all done through the citycomm.
1) Your idea would disadvantage most factions who struggle to hold even 1 op at the moment due to lack of numbers. You're saying that once they capture an op they also need to capture 2 (mine + uplink) more to even stand a chance of successfuly defending it.
Well if they manage to get hold of an OP then they can trade for other materials that they need, but the electricity and the materials are almost completely separate (except for missiles, and they need lots of support to make them) so if you want to make tanks all you need is a Factory and a mine, then buy a mass production BP off someone, maybe an allie who owns a lab.
Am I reading this wrong ?
Would it be the case that if two allied clans worked together they could send a virus to each others OPs continuosly so that they could never lose them.
They would send the virus , not show up , repeat , repeat , repeat ....................................
Not sure about the whole idea really , but as I don't do OPs I wont vote as I have no room to comment.
The factory and lab idea looks almost identical to an idea i posted ages ago ( in respect to mass producion) , it was made on what we were speakin about on irc (cant remember the other i was talkin to).
But basically i said they should mass produce, but yeah all the xtra ideas look good :p
As I have detailed before, there are already advantages to owning an OP.
What happens are large numbers of people will zerg said outpost to reap the rewards. If they don't zerg they will ninja hack.
Unless these 2 issues are addressed I don't believe any change to the OP system will be of a benifit to the average neocron gamer.
When I log on to play NC and my clan decides to take an OP I don't want to have to wait 24 hours before I can. Most people have a RL and might not be on the next day. If you decreased the time to say 4 hours....not many people will play NC for 4 hours straight during the day. OP wars should be spontaneous, but also fair for both sides (defenders vs attackers)
Making the ops more valuable with make the situation worse from zerging and ninja hacking.
angelsenior
18-02-04, 16:32
Warbots are the best mobs to use for production; they have the best overall combination of damage, health, AI and speed.
I dont know about spies, but most PE's and tanks can certainly stand toe-to-toe (in open field 1 on 1) with a warbot or WBT and win, and with the slightest use of cover, you can take on more then 1.
A warbot thus doesnt overpower, even in some numbers.
The whole idea behind OP wars is a battle between 2 big groups of runners, so they would even outnumber the WB's.
these ideas about OP's give a value to Outposts, thus also a reason to hold them, trade with the owners etc... thus the need to roleplay around them;
-clans could agree with a clan to have them fire a missile at the outpost you want to take for a certain favor.
-clans could trade the produced weapons/vehicles/warbots to use as their own.
-clans could have an agreement to listen to an opposing factions channel.
-agreements to help protect their outposts are possible.
-the produced warbots/missiles could be sent VS one of the cities and do some damage (this would result in less items available in the shops for some time).
Also, any runner could stand up and fight these invading warbots (a warning would be issued as the warbots/missiles approach is detected).
-a fortress could maybe have an added function of being able to intercept missiles with missiles (and clans would/could have agreements for protection).
-smaller clans should be more eager to have allies if they feel they are outnumbered by enemy clans, this will/should balance things no matter how small or big your clan is.
too many clans try to do it on their own without help.
Indeed, the politics in the game should be more influenced by what happens on the battlefield and diplomacy should also be a major part in the game for roleplaying purposes.
Being able to declare war on enemy clans is certainly needed in the game (coupled with no SL loss for fighting in clanwars).
the timer on the virus is needed so that both sides have some time to prepare.
@sorontar
I believe you mean that by sending this virus over and over, the outpost becomes unhackable afterwards, but the idea is that you still have that 4 hour time window in which it is hackable.
through the citycom anyone can check when that time window will occur.
So, even if the clan who sent the virus isnt planning on taking the outpost, another clan could unexpectedly show up too and hack it instead, it doesnt matter if it was them who sent it or not so you still need to defend it!
Cheers
I read it that it could only be the clan of the hacker who implemented the virus that could then hack the OP.
Doc Holliday
18-02-04, 17:32
i liked the ideas. would need a few tweaks as stated but over all its a nice concept. it will introduce diplomacy in a big way and one more than one level. With the current situation u get your clan "allies" and simply go to the op. camp the hack term. wait for the zerg rush. or alternatively gather your allies start the zerg. theres no real tactical advantage of multiple ops other than the gr rules for rally points. these ideas promote closer clan and faction relations. nice going. ok fucking A!!
quality.
5 stars
Vampire222
18-02-04, 17:35
ju8dge, you SEXY SEXY MAN!
Originally posted by BiTeMe
As I have detailed before, there are already advantages to owning an OP.
What happens are large numbers of people will zerg said outpost to reap the rewards. If they don't zerg they will ninja hack.
Unless these 2 issues are addressed I don't believe any change to the OP system will be of a benifit to the average neocron gamer.
Well it would be impossible to ninja hack an OP now with these changes. And I don't know what zerg rushing is.
Originally posted by BiTeMe
When I log on to play NC and my clan decides to take an OP I don't want to have to wait 24 hours before I can. Most people have a RL and might not be on the next day. If you decreased the time to say 4 hours....not many people will play NC for 4 hours straight during the day. OP wars should be spontaneous, but also fair for both sides (defenders vs attackers)
Thing is, you can't have spontineity without ninja hacking... I think that organised fights are the lesser of two evils.
HellBreaker
18-02-04, 20:24
Yes!
Good idea but I doubt it will happen :rolleyes:
But we can always hope lol :lol:
Originally posted by Judge
Well it would be impossible to ninja hack an OP now with these changes. And I don't know what zerg rushing is.
Zerg rushing is a term used to describe a whole lot of people attacking a lesser number of people all at once.
If you could lose SL in a warzone when you kill runners who your clan is not at war with..OR unclanned runners would lose SL then people would think twice before they called their mates in a different faction, that happen to also be allied with the ones they are attacking and not at war with.
Originally posted by Judge
Thing is, you can't have spontineity without ninja hacking... I think that organised fights are the lesser of two evils.
If OP's were designed better, to allow an unmanned op to defend it'self against a small number of attackers (3-4) then there would be alot less ninja hackers.
At the moment you have op turrets that dissapear 30 mins after they were placed, op turrets that come back to life once destroyed and of course, the fact there are 2 entrances to nealy all OP's and they are not easy to defend with a small force.
10 warbots would just be farmed for there tech parts as you wouldn't need to walk across the map to find them, and they would be in a war zone so no belt drops while your hunting which is a bonus..
angelsenior
19-02-04, 10:31
These bots wouldnt need to give rareparts, only defend the OP.
24 hours is the best delay you can get because it means you'll be fighting for that OP the next day, same time!
As many people tend to log on at the same hours this is perfect for them.
kind of a cool plan, but your "slow virus" reminds me too much of the wars of a game called Shadow Bane. The only reason that may be bad is because it reallly realllllly encourages huge clans to horde shit and attack after long periods of waiting. that means less op wars with fewer variations, but some interesting strategy elements that may be fun but would need extensive testing.
Originally posted by angelsenior
These bots wouldnt need to give rareparts, only defend the OP.
Even if they didn't drop parts, I would still consider leveling there.
Make them spawn after 1st hack
jj dynomite
19-02-04, 11:51
Originally posted by HellBreaker
Yes!
Good idea but I doubt it will happen :rolleyes:
But we can always hope lol :lol:
On a lot of these ideas people state "it probably won't happen" or something along those lines. You have to remember...a lot of the changes made in this game have been because the runners overwhelmingly wanted them. The ideas that people like Judge and myself type up aren't intended for full implementation, but are for ideas for the Devs. If they took good points from different ideas and found a way to make something better based off of parts of our ideas then i think we have a job well done. I am not speaking for anybody but myself, but i do believe Judge and others will agree with me.
Yeah, jj sometimes they do take some parts of various ideas and put them into the game.
I want the missle in-game.... plaza 1 is going down :p
Make them spawn after 1st hack
Hmmm.... interesting idea.... so its like they are garrisoned in, say, the underground then when they hear something going on they come out (spawn) into the main OP and waste some biatches.
kind of a cool plan, but your "slow virus" reminds me too much of the wars of a game called Shadow Bane.
Shhhhhhh..... :p
The only reason that may be bad is because it reallly realllllly encourages huge clans to horde shit and attack after long periods of waiting. that means less op wars with fewer variations, but some interesting strategy elements that may be fun but would need extensive testing.
Good point, but I would think that if an OP started making missles or Warbots/Gen-Tanks then the opposing side would think they mean to start a war and would attack their OPs to try and stop production. I think things like that and wanting more of their own resources would mean that the fight would get taken to the larger clans more often.
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