The recticle is what seperates the noobs from the eliete [Archive]

Benjie

17-02-04, 04:00

Originally posted by subsys
umm what i ment by the aim = rpg thing is that you have to level to get your wep to be able to aim well ie RPG over FPS, thats prably still not clear but nm.
I get it, but it pushes neocron into a tight corner.

to fps people, it's crap becuse there is still very little player skill involved.

to rpg people, it's crap because ffs neocron only barely classes as an mmorpg. It's too 1337.

So the only people who like it are Neocrack addicts, blade runner junkies, people who like it, and a few other niche genes of peeps.

If you remove the recticle, it wouldn't make it any less of an RPG, but it would certinly attracks a bigger fps audience.

Originally posted by kurai
Sometimes I really don't follow what the hell goes on inside your head, Benjie :D

(Or how you try and explain it in posts, at least)

After seeing a few of your followups it looks like you want a pure hitscan based system, like Quake/UT/CS etc.

Sorry dude - that just ain't gonna happen.

It would mean a complete rewrite of the game, and more importantly also removing any possibility of individual character setup personalisation outside a handful of generic templates.

People took the 'give monks recticles' thread seriously.
This suggestion is on the exact same level.

subsys

17-02-04, 04:09

Originally posted by Benjie
I get it, but it pushes neocron into a tight corner.

to fps people, it's crap becuse there is still very little player skill involved.

to rpg people, it's crap because ffs neocron only barely classes as an mmorpg. It's too 1337.

So the only people who like it are Neocrack addicts, blade runner junkies, people who like it, and a few other niche genes of peeps.

If you remove the recticle, it wouldn't make it any less of an RPG, but it would certinly attracks a bigger fps audience.

People took the 'give monks recticles' thread seriously.
This suggestion is on the exact same level.

im an fps person :), i find that nc has a lot of skill involved, not the same split second reaction time and rocket jumping abilitys but it still requires bucket loads of skill to be a good PvPer.

im not a rpg player so i cant comment on that

theres an awful lot of people out there who find the whole blade runner/deus ex/dredd(ish) kind of thing interesting and exciting. im one of them, i saw the NC reviews and thought YAY cyberpunkish mayhem that isnt all beardy and isnt just a first person shooter, i like the fact that its half and half

my understanding is that monks dont have a reticle because the aim with their mind not with their eyes.

and i am taking you seriously, i just dont think its a good idea, it would be fun to try i just dont think it would work.

Dade Murphey

17-02-04, 04:31

if you make it "skill" based...you basically have one of those cs mods where it's like lord of the rings or shit...with the reticle atleast some "cahracter" skills goes into it as well...which is rather essential for the "rpg" part...so no

To balance it why not give monks a reticle also...I mean damn...melee used to have a reticle...even if it did close really quickly...monks still kind of have to aim...think them having a reticle would be alright

Benjie

17-02-04, 04:58

Originally posted by Dade Murphey
To balance it why not give monks a reticle also...I mean damn...melee used to have a reticle...even if it did close really quickly...monks still kind of have to aim...think them having a reticle would be alright
I don't see why altering the damage/range/rof of the guns and taking away the recticle is any worse than giving Melee and Psi recticles in implamentability.

Rieper

17-02-04, 05:03

what would be the point of levelling up then? it means a lowbie could pwn if he had the aim and the movement.. we'd have to sort out lag, and it would drive away the storyline. hitscan would kill NC.

KramerTheWeird

17-02-04, 05:22

Reticle only demands more skill from a runner. No reticle just makes it stupid easy to hit. I think melee is fine without a reticle and some psi spells but some psi now should have reticles I think.

Strych9

17-02-04, 05:29

There have been discussions on making this game based on actual aiming. The devs indicated that given all of the calculations and factors that come into play, it wouldnt be workable in terms of game performance.

El_MUERkO

17-02-04, 13:00

NO!

Shakey -=Tank=-

17-02-04, 13:47

Would be cool if implemented properly but it's not gonna happen in an MMORPG cus lag would fuck PVP up & RPG element would be screwed, so NO!

Mumblyfish

17-02-04, 13:50

Turn Neocron into an MMOFPS? Well done, you've completely fucked the game over.

I play Neocron because of the RPG elements. The stat building, character customisation, percentages, roleplay. It's an RPG with a first person viewpoint. Not an FPS.

Clyde

17-02-04, 13:58

Neocron did not have a recticle IIRC back in beta 2

Mumblyfish

17-02-04, 13:59

Originally posted by Clyde
Neocron did not have a recticle IIRC back in beta 2

Relevance? Zero.

Neocron is far better now.

Zaq

17-02-04, 14:27

I agree benjie

I say remove reticle or give it to monks

for those who like their stats - maybe make aiming % affect how big the hit box is?

Mumblyfish

17-02-04, 14:28

Originally posted by Zaq
I agree benjie

I say remove reticle or give it to monks

for those who like their stats - maybe make aiming % affect how big the hit box is?

No, because that's fucking daft. Why would someone's skill in aiming a pistol/rifle/cannon affect how big someone is? It makes no sense!

Clownst0pper

17-02-04, 14:29

What a stupid thread.

Its taken me vast amounts of time to get a great aim with most weapons.

Lets remove it so anyone who joins the game is in the same position as me.

Neocron PVP is 100% skill based, even for APU's.

Fool 8|

•Super|\|ova•

17-02-04, 14:29

I voted NO. Instead make monks have reticles.

Aziraphale

17-02-04, 14:30

Worst idea ever :wtf:

Zaq

17-02-04, 14:32

Originally posted by Mumblyfish
No, because that's fucking daft. Why would someone's skill in aiming a pistol/rifle/cannon affect how big someone is? It makes no sense!

it was just a random suggestion

but its just as daft as someones skill affecting how long you have to wait till you can pull the trigger

Mumblyfish

17-02-04, 14:38

Originally posted by Zaq
it was just a random suggestion

but its just as daft as someones skill affecting how long you have to wait till you can pull the trigger

No, the reticle suggests how long your character has to aim until you have a decent shot, the higher your skill the less you have to wait until you have a perfect shot. THAT makes sense.

•Super|\|ova•

17-02-04, 14:49

Originally posted by Mumblyfish
No, the reticle suggests how long your character has to aim until you have a decent shot, the higher your skill the less you have to wait until you have a perfect shot. THAT makes sense.

Exactly. Hands need training and need to get used to it before they are steady enough to aim fast and correct and hit exactly the spot you tried to.

Dade Murphey

17-02-04, 15:10

This is actually one of the reasons I didn't like Planetside...why pay monthly to play CS or Tribes or any combination there of?...if I want an FPS I go play Battlefield or something...if I want an RPG I play NC...don't take character skill out of the game, that's a large part of the point of this after all

Zaq

17-02-04, 15:10

Originally posted by Mumblyfish
No, the reticle suggests how long your character has to aim until you have a decent shot, the higher your skill the less you have to wait until you have a perfect shot. THAT makes sense.

ermm you rephrased what I said and added "THAT makes sense" :p
combat is unique in neocron, its not quite FPS-like and its not quite RPG-like. I just think there should be an even playing field - monks don't have a reticle why should any other class?

Dade Murphey

17-02-04, 15:17

Originally posted by Zaq
ermm you rephrased what I said and added "THAT makes sense" :p
combat is unique in neocron, its not quite FPS-like and its not quite RPG-like. I just think there should be an even playing field - monks don't have a reticle why should any other class?

1 of 3 classes doesn't have a reticle...so remove them all? Dumb...the only reason monks don't is because it's a lot easier to point at someone with your finger than it is to make that bullet him them...monks basically have to point and think...with a gun you have to make the bullet touch what you're shooting at...and you have no control over the bullet after it leaves the barrel...

Along your reasoning...why not give everyone crazy mind powers to control the bullet so we can besure it always hits o.O

This is just dumb...go play planetside or cs or any other game that isn't stat based

Zaq

17-02-04, 15:24

Originally posted by Dade Murphey
1 of 3 classes doesn't have a reticle...so remove them all? Dumb...
i said remove it OR give it to monks

now to the funny part

the only reason monks don't is because it's a lot easier to point at someone with your finger than it is to make that bullet him them...monks basically have to point and think...with a gun you have to make the bullet touch what you're shooting at...and you have no control over the bullet after it leaves the barrel...

i think a rifle can hit a target 100m away more accurately than I can point my finger.

This is just dumb...go play planetside or cs or any other game that isn't stat based
no you go play a pure RPG auto-combat game I heard DAoC is quite good

•Super|\|ova•

17-02-04, 16:27

numb

17-02-04, 16:33

I havent played a monk for a long time, but how long exactly do you need to be pointed at your target while you concentrate? I thought it just registered what you were pointing it when you started casting and applied the spell you were casting on that target. I wouldnt be surprised if I was mistaken though.

I dont think a recticle to make _you_ actually concentrate on a target for a specific amount of time to get the best results from your spell to be a bad idea. I do however believe the removal of all recticles in the game to be a really bad idea :) I think the system is great as it is (and I come from a mainly FPS background, with about a year worth of AO in me).

•Super|\|ova•

17-02-04, 16:36

Originally posted by numb
I havent played a monk for a long time, but how long exactly do you need to be pointed at your target while you concentrate? I thought it just registered what you were pointing it when you started casting and applied the spell you were casting on that target. I wouldnt be surprised if I was mistaken though.

I dont think a recticle to make _you_ actually concentrate on a target for a specific amount of time to get the best results from your spell to be a bad idea. I do however believe the removal of all recticles in the game to be a really bad idea :) I think the system is great as it is (and I come from a mainly FPS background, with about a year worth of AO in me).

Yup. Monks don't have to concentrate on the target even a second. All it needs is that you click attack button when it's on an enemy. No difference was it there for a 0,0001 seconds or an hour. Same result.

Jeros82

17-02-04, 17:10

Let's make it turn based "click and wait" while we are at it :rolleyes:

May have been serious, but quite funny idea.....

How to change a game 100 % into another game....

Make it turn based

hmmm, turn based Quake III :lol:

steweygrrr

17-02-04, 17:12

Originally posted by Benjie
huh? NO! thats the opposite! I mean S.K.I.L.L. B.A.S.E.D.

I mean aim your gun with you mouse, not with your penis size! (weapon lore)

Anyway, monks have no recticle, and there is no problem there really. Hell if all classes lost there recticles there would probabally be more balance!

And lets make it an FPS too!

No.

steweygrrr

17-02-04, 17:14

Originally posted by •Super|\|ova•
Yup. Monks don't have to concentrate on the target even a second. All it needs is that you click attack button when it's on an enemy. No difference was it there for a 0,0001 seconds or an hour. Same result.

Sorry for the double post but have you even played a monk?

If the target moves in between the time you originally had him targeted and you start to cast the spell, it fizzles i.e. miscast. Fast ROF only helps with that slightly. Thats why PPU's are always asking you to stand still lol.

•Super|\|ova•

17-02-04, 17:16

Originally posted by steweygrrr
Sorry for the double post but have you even played a monk?

If the target moves in between the time you originally had him targeted and you start to cast the spell, it fizzles i.e. miscast. Fast ROF only helps with that slightly. Thats why PPU's are always asking you to stand still lol.

Yes I've capped an APU and I know what I'm talking about. Don't even think that monks are even close to the difficulty level of tanks. Not a chance.

numb

17-02-04, 17:27

Originally posted by steweygrrr
Thats why PPU's are always asking you to stand still lol.

I thought that might be something to do with the range on their spells + perhaps the difficulty of getting someones target box up if they run infront of someone/something else rather than how long it takes to go from target to cast. Not that I've played a PPU, suppose I should shutup :)

steweygrrr

17-02-04, 17:27

So hard being able to take all that damage. But then again thats the price monks pay for uberpower, paper thin defences. Wish more people would see it that way and not 'Everyone else has it so why can't I?'

Judge

17-02-04, 17:41

Originally posted by •Super|\|ova•
Yes I've capped an APU and I know what I'm talking about. Don't even think that monks are even close to the difficulty level of tanks. Not a chance.

Yeah hehe.... and if you think that APU aiming is hard mr steweygrrr don't ever play a libby PE.

Alice

17-02-04, 18:10

I have capped aiming on my main characters, (over that with Fixer) and I can't hit for sh*t.

Simple. As soon as people start running around, I can't hit, I can't keep up with them, and I have my mouse tweaked quite high, I use an optical mouse too, and give me CS or something similar, and I can do evil amounts of damage. This game does not reward skills as highly as you think. It rewards nerves of steel and pinpoint accuracy. You have to follow said target with the reticle, until it closes in, and then, keep it within a certian amount of distance or the aiming goes back out again. I can't do it. I've tried it and I can't do PVP. Not even with a aim-capped lib. Not even Black-sun, nothing. The only hope I have, is if they crash and stand still, and THEN I can hit them.

And yeah I can hear the burning branches, but I hold my own in any FPS game, from red-faction and quake, to CS and BF1942. So why can't I in this game? 144 weap for a pistol user, should be enough to make that recepticle (whatever) zoom in, within mili-seconds.

Ozambabbaz

17-02-04, 18:17

Banz0r teh redicule, erhm, rectum-mule, arh, sod it NERF!

serious tho, remove the f00kly thing, make a "aim button" were u raise the weapon to chin / eye-point, and animate the weapon accordingly (ie if reticle would have been at max, the weapon would shake and move a bit, fully closed, only slightly animated)

numb

17-02-04, 18:41

Originally posted by Alice
And yeah I can hear the burning branches, but I hold my own in any FPS game, from red-faction and quake, to CS and BF1942. So why can't I in this game? 144 weap for a pistol user, should be enough to make that recepticle (whatever) zoom in, within mili-seconds.

I do agree with your point in general. And with regard to keeping a target, it may be that you have your mouse sensitivity up too high, too much of that and the slightest move can get you off target. I think fighting in 3rd person reduces your sensitivity somewhat further aswell, which besides the ability to shoot out of your.. ahem.. back, may be one of the reasons a lot of people find it easier to fight in that view.

Duder

17-02-04, 18:47

Id like APUs to gain runcasting and a reticle and a little dmg nerf with their ability to runcast.

Fawkes

17-02-04, 18:55

Take off the reticle and you'll lose all the balance in this game. Fights would take seconds to end. It would take too much work to balance this game again with a normal aiming system. Can you picture a tank with a CS fighting a monk with normal aiming? who do you think will win? as I said, total imbalance.

Although I agree newbies sould be given a chance to participate in PvP and that the reticle aiming is somewhat tiring after a while, this isn't a FPS game and it will never be one. As someone said here, this game isn't FPS, but a MMORPG with FPS features.

Also, I don't see why you think the reticle takes away skills. On the contrary, it's harder to aim with a reticle than hitscan aiming. You actually have to keep your crosshair on your opponent in order to hit and not just point at him and shoot. Takes more skills, don't you agree?

Rimase

17-02-04, 18:57

I agree, I think. :wtf:

steweygrrr

17-02-04, 18:58

Originally posted by Judge
Yeah hehe.... and if you think that APU aiming is hard mr steweygrrr don't ever play a libby PE.

Worse....I've done a libby spy o_0

Doc Holliday

17-02-04, 19:23

forget trawling 4 pages. reticle means increased skillz required to aim rather than some noob using a rocket launcher an scoring a lucky hit and takin you out. i know all about this. i was that noob back playing unreal tourney about 2 yrs ish ago. u have to learn to get your aim in neocron and keep it in order to beat your opponent. that encourages skill. you should be lookin to introduce a reticle for monks if anything. not remove the thing all together. if i want to play a point and shoot type game i will play max payne 2 :cool: i think neocron benefits from the reticle system cos it makes for a more skilled combat game and when u get owned u no the other guy was better, same when u own someone u know u truly did and didnt just land that lucky blow with your rocket launcher.

jernau

17-02-04, 19:26

No.

Kurai said why earlier.

superfresh

17-02-04, 19:46

I don't need a reticle. I don't even need a monitor.

StryfeX

17-02-04, 21:52

I think it would be an interesting option to explore.

Personally (selfishly) I'd like to see it go straight in, but thinking about balance, it would need to be tried and experimented with first.

If this does get implemented, you should be able to fire as soon as you acquire a target, however there would be no hitscanning beyond what we currently have: head/chest/legs. When you fire, the game would look at your aiming and handling of the weapon, do some calcs, toss in some randomness, add some penalties or bonuses (whether you're running/walking/standing still/crouching/jumping/etc., target's range in relation to weapon's max range, weapon type, etc.), and viola, you've got how many shots of the burst hit or miss. For single-shot weapons, it would simply be hit or miss. PSI would remain prety much the same.

--Stryfe

Edited for l33t grammar.

Nash_Brigham

17-02-04, 22:00

I acutally prefer this idea honestly. Removing the recticle and makign the game more FPS based, requiring actual *gasp* targetting skill of the player involved. That way dodging out of the way of shots is more viable to, and the skill just ups the ability to aim straight and improves damage as it does now.

Mumblyfish

17-02-04, 22:01

Originally posted by Nash_Brigham
I acutally prefer this idea honestly. Removing the recticle and makign the game more FPS based, requiring actual *gasp* targetting skill of the player involved. That way dodging out of the way of shots is more viable to, and the skill just ups the ability to aim straight and improves damage as it does now.

But... this is an RPG! A lot of us like stats, not skill!

jernau

17-02-04, 22:03

Originally posted by Mumblyfish
But... this is an RPG! A lot of us like stats, not skill!

I like a bit of both and IMO the current system does that better than any other I've seen.

My only change would be to replace random PSI damage with reticle-closure based damage as was discussed in another thread a few days ago.

Nash_Brigham

17-02-04, 22:05

Originally posted by Mumblyfish
But... this is an RPG! A lot of us like stats, not skill! I am an RPer, but in a game like Neocron, alot of shit happening in this game jsut crosses the line of totally stupid. Someone shooting a laser beam through a hill at me (yes, I do get this alot) just cause the hit got registered even after I ducked back behind the hill or the dum dum rockets curving and changing direction in midflight to hit me, even though the firer is not actively targetting me, it's totally rediculous.

Alice

18-02-04, 05:24

has it been tried?

Alot of people say "OMG THIS WILL RUIN ZE GAME!" but is there any other cyberpunk FPS-RPGs out there, that has this style that people are proposing?

The thing is, people are saying, they *think* it will unbalance the game, that it will kill the RP aspect etc.

We don't know that until it's tried.

Besides, it might make characters a little less specialized, which seems to be one of the things most people agree should happen. Without wep, or with a base requirement (added to all weapons), more points can be used in other things, which would be interesting, to say the least.

I'm for the idea of removing the recepticles. (recep... reept... whatever.) Read other posts and people say "omg that gun is a noob gun because it aims so fast". The fact rifles, or things that zoom distances, aim so much faster than pistols. There are so many discrepencies in this game, as it is to do with aiming, that I think the removal would solve more than it would hurt.

Of course stats will be important. Being able to use the weapon you hold, involve stats, but the stats will focus more on a hit/miss system. Once aiming is capped, you shouldn't miss a shot unless you are running around like a headless chicken. Then wep compensates for run-shooting, like psu does for run-casting.

I think it will balance out more than people realise.

And sorry if there are mistakes, it's half 3am, i'm tired.

Psycho Killa

18-02-04, 05:28

Ive thought about it on ocassion but really the reticle adds to neocron it makes it that much more unique.

Invertigo

18-02-04, 05:29

go play SWG...

Benjie

18-02-04, 05:55

It won't unbalance the game.

A radical change like this would be on the test server for about ten patches to make sure everything is balanced out before releasing it retail.

So there would be no balance issues created.

Originally posted by Invertigo
go play SWG...
I did. It's really crap. I hate that game.

Now, I bet _you_ havn't even played SW:G have you?

Bandwagon Jumpers... *sigh*

Dade Murphey

18-02-04, 08:18

It would unbalance the game because it would give people who play and are good at FPS's an upperhand...not everyone here plays or is good at that sort of thing...this is till, when all is said and done, a MMORPG...take out any sort of character skill, no matter how small or trivial it may seem and you lose some of the RPG aspect...as it is this is probably one of the most unique combat systems I've seen on the market...take out the reticle and you've basically got a bit more complicated planetside...it would make Rifle/pistol/Heavy Combat nothing more than requirements...would make weapon lore needless...I say if anything needs doing it's adding a reticle to Monks...Melee should be the only thing without a reticle...you don't have to aim all that precise to still do dmg to something with a blade...

Also...it would make it so that the game has to calculate where every bullet goes...because without the reticle you would actually be able to spread fire...making the game probably lag more and cause a lot of unneeded grief for the devs...it would really be a poor addition to the game, removing the reticle

StryfeX

18-02-04, 09:39

Originally posted by Dade Murphey
It would unbalance the game because it would give people who play and are good at FPS's an upperhand...not everyone here plays or is good at that sort of thing...this is till, when all is said and done, a MMORPG...take out any sort of character skill, no matter how small or trivial it may seem and you lose some of the RPG aspect...as it is this is probably one of the most unique combat systems I've seen on the market...take out the reticle and you've basically got a bit more complicated planetside...it would make Rifle/pistol/Heavy Combat nothing more than requirements...would make weapon lore needless...I say if anything needs doing it's adding a reticle to Monks...Melee should be the only thing without a reticle...you don't have to aim all that precise to still do dmg to something with a blade...

Also...it would make it so that the game has to calculate where every bullet goes...because without the reticle you would actually be able to spread fire...making the game probably lag more and cause a lot of unneeded grief for the devs...it would really be a poor addition to the game, removing the reticle
Originally posted by StryfeX
If this does get implemented, you should be able to fire as soon as you acquire a target, however there would be no hitscanning beyond what we currently have: head/chest/legs. When you fire, the game would look at your aiming and handling of the weapon, do some calcs, toss in some randomness, add some penalties or bonuses (whether you're running/walking/standing still/crouching/jumping/etc., target's range in relation to weapon's max range, weapon type, etc.), and viola, you've got how many shots of the burst hit or miss. For single-shot weapons, it would simply be hit or miss. PSI would remain prety much the same. Note the part: "and viola, you've got how many shots of the burst hit or miss. For single-shot weapons, it would simply be hit or miss." That would mean that it would still look at your aiming of the weapon (still based on what it is now, e.g. - mostly weapon lore for rifles, etc.) and determine how many hits/misses you have from that. You don't have to implement a conical fire-tracking system. Stop making this more complicated than it would have to be.

--Stryfe

Dade Murphey

18-02-04, 09:44

[edited by me: I'll be nicer]

Look...I really don't care about whether or not it'll make things laggier...if you'll notice that wasn't the majority of my post...I care about the fact that the game would be relying on Player skill as opposed to Character skill for something this game is based largely on: PvP

Alice

18-02-04, 12:23

but it relies on player skill now?

All in all, even with the aiming circle (hah! no receptoicles for me!) people with higher skills, faster computers and better net connections, will dominate over the people without. In theory, as long as you cap said gun, you could take a lower gun and pwn people with it, as long as the above requirements are easily met.

Me, op wars turn my screen into a chug-a-matic. I'm lucky if i hit my own side, never mind theirs, and that's with all settings turned down. Neocron is a resource hog, and it won't even let me run winamp without it going screwball, and juddering.

If this game soley relied on character skill, then why don't all tanks own equal? All PEs. All Spies etc. Why is there a few, if only one or two people at the top of each class, who are the *BEST* at PvP? Because of their character, and their player skills.

Have the stats make more effect on the way you fire, and deal damage, stick wep as a weapon requirement (which makes much more sense... no point picking up a laser pistol if you don't know how to aim it properly) and extended wep = better run-fire.

I think people need to try this rather than saying it won't work. It will still be based on char skills, as someone with a medicant SMG won't be able to take on a tank with a CS, but it means mid level battles would work, noobs can do something more than hunt rats, and EVERYONE in a clan, is viable in op-wars.

Babai

18-02-04, 14:22

The only persistent universe game which uses hit scan engine is Jumpgate. I wish NC used this type of hit detection method but I doubt its going to happen.

ichinin

18-02-04, 21:28

Yes.

This would mean that i would get better at PvP than the powerleveled PKers who relies on stats to be good (*caugh* Vetteroex *caugh*)

Babai wrote:
> hit scan engine

What engine?

Dade Murphey

18-02-04, 22:17

Originally posted by Alice
but it relies on player skill now?

All in all, even with the aiming circle (hah! no receptoicles for me!) people with higher skills, faster computers and better net connections, will dominate over the people without. In theory, as long as you cap said gun, you could take a lower gun and pwn people with it, as long as the above requirements are easily met.

Me, op wars turn my screen into a chug-a-matic. I'm lucky if i hit my own side, never mind theirs, and that's with all settings turned down. Neocron is a resource hog, and it won't even let me run winamp without it going screwball, and juddering.

If this game soley relied on character skill, then why don't all tanks own equal? All PEs. All Spies etc. Why is there a few, if only one or two people at the top of each class, who are the *BEST* at PvP? Because of their character, and their player skills.

Have the stats make more effect on the way you fire, and deal damage, stick wep as a weapon requirement (which makes much more sense... no point picking up a laser pistol if you don't know how to aim it properly) and extended wep = better run-fire.

I think people need to try this rather than saying it won't work. It will still be based on char skills, as someone with a medicant SMG won't be able to take on a tank with a CS, but it means mid level battles would work, noobs can do something more than hunt rats, and EVERYONE in a clan, is viable in op-wars.

First off...you don't really need to always cap a gun to be good...
If you get shit FPS durring an op war...what the hell do you think is going to change by removing the reticle...the reticle is not what screws you...and fortunately, with doy NC shouldn't use as much resources
Of course it's a combination of character AND player skill...that's kinda what allows everyone to be able to compete...but if you take out any sort of character skill it'll unlevel the player field even more for those who don't play FPS games
WL is kind of an unsaid requirement...it affects some of the stats on the gun as is...putting it as a requirement would rather suck...would allow less customizable characters...some people give up a bit of aiming so they can do something else...and you don't really need to know how to aim all that well to actually use a gun...I can pick up a pistol even though my aiming sucks in real life o.O
sorry but a the xample of a mendacant against a CS is a dumb and very far fetched xample that really has nothing to do with the over all thread...EVERYONE will not become more viable in an OP war...the dude with the low resists who is still using the first lvl Uzi will still suck in the Op battle and will still get wasted...You're whole theory at this point falls apart because you're not taking into effect resists and higher lvl armor
And by the way...I have tried this...it's called Planetside...and it sucked...though they had it set up right for that type of combat...you have no armor lvls...you have no resists...all you have is different armors and different guns...but that didn't save the suckieness

StryfeX

19-02-04, 00:49

Originally posted by Dade Murphey
First off...you don't really need to always cap a gun to be good...True. But capping a gun makes you that much more effective.

Originally posted by Dade Murphey
If you get shit FPS durring an op war...what the hell do you think is going to change by removing the reticle...the reticle is not what screws you...and fortunately, with doy NC shouldn't use as much resourcesDo you have *any* idea how hard it is to track a PE running at full-tilt and dodging like hell with 2-10 FPS? It would be much easier to simply point and click, and let your character skills take over from there. Even if you're the best player in the world, you're still going to be dogmeat at 5 FPS. And since NC *IS* such a resource hog, it'd make sense to try and level the field for those that get the aforementioned shit FPS.

Originally posted by Dade Murphey
Of course it's a combination of character AND player skill...that's kinda what allows everyone to be able to compete...but if you take out any sort of character skill it'll unlevel the player field even more for those who don't play FPS gamesThis argument about disadvantaging those with no FPS experience doesn't hold water. I can at least hold my own (unless I'm having a shit day :lol: ) in just about every FPS shooter out there. In NC, I barely become mediocre. My style of playing is to simply move the crosshair over the enemy and fire, not to actually track them for several seconds *then* fire. Which is why I have a hard time at NC, although I'm getting better. If you took out the recticle, all you'd have to do is point and click, and your character skills would determine how much you hit. Trust me, pointing and clicking on something is much easier than tracking a wildly moving target for a couple seconds until you get a good enough lock on them to start hitting more than 20% of your shots.

Originally posted by Dade Murphey
WL is kind of an unsaid requirement...it affects some of the stats on the gun as is...putting it as a requirement would rather suck...would allow less customizable characters...some people give up a bit of aiming so they can do something else...and you don't really need to know how to aim all that well to actually use a gun...I can pick up a pistol even though my aiming sucks in real life o.OTrue. I only have marginal weapons training in real life, but I can still pick one up, point it in the general direction of what I want to hit, and pull the trigger. I agree about not having WEP as a full-blown requirement. WEP would be best set to affect things like how much of a "to-hit" malus you would receive while doing things like running, jumping, etc.

Originally posted by Dade Murphey
sorry but a the xample of a mendacant against a CS is a dumb and very far fetched xample that really has nothing to do with the over all thread...EVERYONE will not become more viable in an OP war...the dude with the low resists who is still using the first lvl Uzi will still suck in the Op battle and will still get wasted...You're whole theory at this point falls apart because you're not taking into effect resists and higher lvl armorWhy is this example far-fetched? Alice is saying that regardless of the player skill, the CS Tank is still going to win, simply because disparity between their setups, levels, etc. The example was just being used to further the argument that with this system, mid-level battles would be more interesting and more skill-based.

Originally posted by Dade Murphey
And by the way...I have tried this...it's called Planetside...and it sucked...though they had it set up right for that type of combat...you have no armor lvls...you have no resists...all you have is different armors and different guns...but that didn't save the suckieness You realize that the proposal is to simply remove the recticle, right? This in turn would mean that character setups would become THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS. Armor, CON setup, weapon skills, speed. All that would be more important.

--Stryfe

Psycho Killa

19-02-04, 01:21

Originally posted by ichinin
Yes.

This would mean that i would get better at PvP than the powerleveled PKers who relies on stats to be good (*caugh* Vetteroex *caugh*)

Thats funny I didnt realise there was a stat that determined your actualy physical aiming of the liberator ( not reticle close speed) and timing etc.

Your right you would be better without a reticle :rolleyes:

Sad thing is vet would be even better then.

StryfeX

19-02-04, 01:29

Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Thats funny I didnt realise there was a stat that determined your actualy physical aiming of the liberator ( not reticle close speed) and timing etc.

Your right you would be better without a reticle :rolleyes:

Sad thing is vet would be even better then. That may be very true that both he and Vet would both get better if they took out the recticle. But I'd be willing to bet that the margin by which ichinin gets better will be more than the margin by which Vet gets better. Thus it could quite possibly lead to MORE skilled-based fights, not just "my setup is uber and yours isn't, so I kill you" fights.

--Stryfe

Clownst0pper

19-02-04, 01:33

No reticle.

Id have 100% accuracy with every weapon.

Big head? NO.

Ive got very very good aim with most weapons with a reticle, it would be stupid with none, id hit almost 99% of the time 8|

Psycho Killa

19-02-04, 01:51

Its already highly skill based not every ass clown can get good aim with a gun infact its HARDER and requires more skill to aim with this system then quake or unreal tournament.

This takes aim and timing the other games just take aim.

Dont forget setup is going always will and always should be an important factor in this game or it would just be a fps and not an mmorpg.

jernau

19-02-04, 02:37

One point I haven't seen mentioned is that point-and-zap is more exploitable.

If you are lagging people teleport about more, meaning they appear to stand still a lot more than is in fact the case. With the current system it's often not long enough to compensate for the handicap of being lagged. In a non-reticle Neocron people will use net-hacks to slow/stop opponents, ratlle out a clip then run off at full speed.

Keiron

19-02-04, 02:44

If KK could fix the servers so people walked (not jumped about) and got FPS to an acceptable level (I wouldn’t be that effected by it, I get 20'ish at most op wars) that this would be a good idea. However, since that’s a long ways away (although DOY may fix FPS) I don't see this happening anytime soon.

Invertigo

19-02-04, 02:45

Originally posted by Benjie
It won't unbalance the game.

A radical change like this would be on the test server for about ten patches to make sure everything is balanced out before releasing it retail.

So there would be no balance issues created.

I did. It's really crap. I hate that game.

Now, I bet _you_ havn't even played SW:G have you?

Bandwagon Jumpers... *sigh*

yea i have.

got it the first day it went retail...

cancled account later that week.

StryfeX

19-02-04, 19:54

Originally posted by Clownst0pper
No reticle.

Id have 100% accuracy with every weapon.

Big head? NO.

Ive got very very good aim with most weapons with a reticle, it would be stupid with none, id hit almost 99% of the time :shocked:I think that most people would be able to aim better, too. I would also have a very high accuracy with weapons if they took out the recticle, due to my aiming style. But that's where your setup would come into play. By having physically excellent aim with a mouse, it would give your character the maximum chance to hit based on his or her setup.

Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Its already highly skill based not every ass clown can get good aim with a gun infact its HARDER and requires more skill to aim with this system then quake or unreal tournament.True. And that puts non-FPS'ers at even *MORE* of a disadvantage than they would be with no recticle.

Originally posted by Psycho Killa
This takes aim and timing the other games just take aim.Unfortunately, unless you have a $2500 computer, the 'timing' part of NC's aiming is really hard to accomplish, especially with people warping around due to lag. Consider this. I have 2 accounts. I play using one internet connection. I have two computers, roughly similar in specs playing one account each. I have about a three-quarter second lag time between the computers, e.g - I'll do something on one computer, and the other computer doesn't see it for 3/4 seconds.

As long as crap like this exists, the game is going to favor no recticle weapons, like melee and PSI.

Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Dont forget setup is going always will and always should be an important factor in this game or it would just be a fps and not an mmorpg.I didn't say that setup was going to be a moot point. I simply said that with the right amount of skill, the setup would become less important.

Originally posted by jernau
One point I haven't seen mentioned is that point-and-zap is more exploitable.

If you are lagging people teleport about more, meaning they appear to stand still a lot more than is in fact the case. With the current system it's often not long enough to compensate for the handicap of being lagged. In a non-reticle Neocron people will use net-hacks to slow/stop opponents, ratlle out a clip then run off at full speed.You bring up a good point, and KK would certainly have to add some server-side cheat checks, but I personally think this is already quite possible and I wouldn't be surprised if it's actually being used by a few less-than-moral people.

So as I said, there would need to be some more server-side checks, and adding some client-side checks wouldn't be a bad thing, either.

So far it seems to me that a lot of people want the recticle to stay in the game mostly so they can stay 'uber' and have less competition. And I find it quite annoying, TBH. I see no reason why we couldn't at least *try* the no recticle system on the Test Server for a while. Maybe I'm completely off my rocker, but until we're given a test avenue for this, we will never know the complete validity (or invalidity) of either side's arguments.

--Stryfe

[Edited for l33t spelling and grammar.]