View Full Version : Make S/D selfcast only
I know it's been done before, but I dunt care :D
thats the biggest and worst load of bullshit ive ever heard, and i hope its considered spam and closed lol :p
PPU's ecspecially in OP wars would be absolutly useless.
SO NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mumblyfish
13-02-04, 00:22
FOREIGNcast only makes sense.
This does not.
Explain.
Dribble Joy
13-02-04, 00:25
Yes, yes, a hundred times yes.
If only people would actually think a bit.
PPU's can still s/d themselves, can still heal, rezz, hazz, damage boost & shock others, just not make their whole team totally invincible.
Hardly makes them useless at op wars as crazy(apt name that :D)_ said.
it wud be in a OP war like a massive army of PPU's running around and parashocking eachother since everyone else wud die sooner or later
Dribble Joy
13-02-04, 00:29
It's about class balance.
It's been explained over and over, but people still don't get it.
Yes please, it would FINALLY make all monks less important in op wars/pvp in general !!1!!!!
YES YES YES FFS YES!!!!!:
1. The ppus could still: Rezz, dmg boost, freeze, heal and cast lvl3 buffs
2. You will not see any APUs with about the same defence as a FUCKING TANK run in the middle of 10 enemies without dying.
3. OP fights will be more tactical, cause you can die fast as hell.
4. PEs would be better in OP wars (no I'm not playing a PE.
5. Would make PP1 fights more fun ;)
6. ect. ect. QD already wrote like 5+ pages on why this is a good idea. Make a search for it if you care..
all apus would reroll or lom to ppu...
just stab them in thier back, think again.
Apu solo 1on1 loose 95% now against PE/Tank
Nerfed range and fucked up HL :D and bad shit CON
Give apus stealth then I would say mmmkay ;)
Originally posted by t0tt3
all apus would reroll or lom to ppu...
just stab them in thier back, think again.
Apu solo 1on1 loose 95% now against PE/Tank
Nerfed range and fucked up HL :D and bad shit CON
Give apus stealth then I would say mmmkay ;)
If this went through, then I would be almost sure, they would re-boost apu's damage.
At least I would hope they were smart enough.
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 00:36
I've explained more than enough times.
In more than enough detail.
Most of the skilled/decent players in the community understand exactly why this is just about the only way things can go, properly.
Any clan tactition and/or decent troop leader should also know this isn't the end of the PPU, or the APU.
All I see here so far in terms of people saying no, is stupid noobs.
And, as Celt said.
A slight un-nerfing of the rezz nerf, and some unnerfing of APU Damage would obviously accompany this.
However, it's much more favourable than current, useless/annoying, nerfs on both classes, nerfs which don't need to exist.
If QD and myself can agree on something, even dumb people must see it's a very very good idea.
lol, wasnt this one of QD's idea's with shad O_o funny seeing you backing it :lol:
Anyway yea, after thinkin about it for a while when DQ mentioned it to me, i kinda like this idea
[edit] damn you 2 gits.... ur not allowed to post faster then me .... :(
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 00:38
Originally posted by Celt
If QD and myself can agree on something, even dumb people must see it's a very very good idea. Sign of the apocalypse? :p
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
lol, wasnt this one of QD's idea's with shad O_o funny seeing you backing it :lol:
Anyway yea, after thinkin about it for a while when DQ mentioned it to me, i kinda like this idea
*sigh*
This idea has been knocking around since the original hybrid nerf, damn newbies :(
Originally posted by Celt
If this went through, then I would be almost sure, they would re-boost apu's damage.
At least I would hope they were smart enough.
Hmm a APU unbuffed goes down as fast as a spie and they cant stealth.....
Spy = long range + stealth "good defence"
APU = pistol range + ? nothing :p "crap defence"
So now the APU would be the far most dead body bag in the game..
NOONE would even play it. Why use HAB? to debuff a ppu???? lol why even bother just a healer I can kill a tank in 3 s with a team and its all over just the ppu left running around....
He cant rezz "to long" he would get pwnd by 7 Dev tanks
Face it, the idea sucks...
When we had 240 m range I would say why not but now when we are mid/low range combat attackers with poor ass con I cant say ok... Call me a noob but it wont happend I need to kill a tank in 4 - 6 shots then and noone would agree with that..
Originally posted by t0tt3
Hmm a APU unbuffed goes down as fast as a spie and they cant stealth.....
Spy = long range + stealth "good defence"
APU = pistol range + ? nothing :p "crap defence"
So now the APU would be the far most dead body bag in the game..
NOONE would even play it. Why use HAB? to debuff a ppu???? lol why even bother just a healer I can kill a tank in 3 s with a team and its all over just the ppu left running around....
He cant rezz "to long" he would get pwnd by 7 Dev tanks
Face it, the idea sucks...
Uh, a good apu should win against a good tank 50% of the time if apu's got unnerfed.
why are people on monks backs again? for me this idea is the worst ive ever seen on this forum in over a year, you want to make op fights last longer not short little fights and people die in 5 secs flat.
Like has been said, APU's would just lom over to ppu coz whats the point in being a APU without any offered defensive help? if you want to fuck over apu's and just make a ppu useless enough to only ress or dmg boost the enemy, then put both those classes in the bin and bring back the hybrids without all the nerfs.
As it stand now all i see at op fights is a rare few APU's, many ppu's and lots of skillless Dev Tanks running around screwing up FPS and missing people.
The game has become a skilless heap of crap now, gone are the days when you had maybe one or two ppu's keeping an entire team alive in mass numbers, and gone are the days when tanks using a CS meant something to the enemy, and certainly gone are the days with a select few very good APU's who knew how to debuff and speed cast a HL on someone to drop them without the need to HL spam them in the vain hope they will drop even with a S/D and holy heal on.
Real players with skill are few and far between these days, I say no to this idea, it is shit, I want op fights to last at least 30 mins.
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 00:41
Originally posted by t0tt3
Hmm a APU unbuffed goes down as fast as a spie and they cant stealth.....
Spy = long range + stealth "good defence"
APU = pistol range + ? nothing :p "crap defence"
So now the APU would be the far most dead body bag in the game..
NOONE would even play it. Why use HAB? to debuff a ppu???? lol why even bother just a healer I can kill a tank in 3 s with a team and its all over just the ppu left running around....
He cant rezz "to long" he would get pwnd by 7 Dev tanks
Face it, the idea sucks...
[edited for violation of the forum rules]
Look at this;
NOONE would even play it. Why use HAB? to debuff a ppu???? lol why even bother just a healer I can kill a tank in 3 s with a team and its all over just the ppu left running around....
[edited for violation of the forum rules]
Ask Shadow Dancer about this concept, APUs don't have ALL THAT MUCH trouble staying alive, and they will still benefit from PPU support, the big thing about it effecting APUs is this;
APUs wont get UBAR ATTACK and UBAR DEFENCE anymore.
Boohoo.
You sound like a hybrid.... wait.....weren't you one of them to begin with?
Originally posted by t0tt3
all apus would reroll or lom to ppu...
just stab them in thier back, think again.
Apu solo 1on1 loose 95% now against PE/Tank
Nerfed range and fucked up HL :D and bad shit CON
Give apus stealth then I would say mmmkay ;)
HL will be upped again or so thanatos has said, but monks dont seem to listen and apus tend to lack skill in my opinion as with the speed you run at they are hard to hit and can hit easily and still have a better defence then spies who dont gimp their dex.
If you want stealth re-role.
Originally posted by cRazy2003
it wud be in a OP war like a massive army of PPU's running around and parashocking eachother since everyone else wud die sooner or later
What op wars do you go too most clans have more ppus then combat chars at op wars these days.
I remember op fights before ppu's, I also remember them lasting as long as 3 hours.
There's a thing called a "genrep" you see.
When you die, you "genrep" to another area, get poked and go back again.
Understand yet?
Problem is lazy people who want to sit around until they get rezzed.
Well I could combat good vs a tank before all the nerfs. Now its pretty hard unbuffed.
Me and Xer0 had some nice duels and I almost woped his as 4 - 1 and he won with 4 - 5 doh! :D
PE would own with their own buffs "not skill less dev tanks" but any other thing with own buffs and holy heal :eek:
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 00:44
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
I don't like the PPU idea but really don't have the energy to address it... -- SD said the same thing
Scikar says:
heh
Scikar says:
the only thing that concerned me was tank and pe defence ending up the same, but i figured that was a minor point and not the issue of the thread
Scikar says:
i think it would certianly decrease the importance of ppus at op wars if tanks and pes dont gain anything from ppus except buffs and heals
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
A) It's too complex B) it's not going to fix the balance issues between APU/PE/Tank when PPU is around
Scikar says:
why not?
Scikar says:
well maybe on the apu side
Scikar says:
but tank/pe would essentially be on level ground
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
I've explained enough times what the balance issue between PE/Tank/APU + PPU does
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
lol
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
ugh
Scikar says:
the way he put it, a pe self buffed would have the same defence if ppu buffed, and a tank would not gain any defence at all from shields
Scikar says:
though when he said ppu shields would bring apu defence up to the same level i wasnt too sure
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
It's nicely thought out, but lacks one thing
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
...knowledge of the game
Scikar says:
i guess
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
"lets make it so that having a ppu makes everyone's defence the same =DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD"
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
............
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
When everyone has different levels of attack power?
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
LOL
Scikar says:
maybe i just got a bit overexcited at the first real chance to reduce a ppu's importance
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
First real?
Scikar says:
well when was the last half decent idea?
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
I already put the only idea that will work and balance the effects of the PPU at the same time on that forum.
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
It got rejected by a few people, sure, but that's mainly because 90% of this community are bloody morons.
Scikar says:
what about the big ass tank shield idea? =)
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
Tanks no longer need boosting.
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
as long as you ignore the somewhat underpowered AoE
Scikar says:
CS will get its damaged reduced again next patch
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
but then if their AoE was significantly boosted I'd ask CS to be reduced somewhat
Scikar says:
the PEs have been whining already
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
so what?
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
those boosts were never meant to be there
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
for sake of balance i'm ignoring them
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
because if i didn't it would drive me insane at how STUPID those changes were.
Scikar says:
you do realise pain easer was boosted too?
Scikar says:
i think the damage increase on CS is balanced by PE stealth
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
-_-
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
just don't
Scikar says:
im serious, PE stealth just has to go
Scikar says:
just because you never liked using it doesnt mean that the 90% who do can be ignored
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
I already posted up other options.
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
I did use it, occasionally, but like I said --- mainly because I was either out numbered or parashocked
Scikar says:
and if thats all it was used for there wouldnt be a problem
Scikar says:
do you realise that people have actually started dying again since the last patch?
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
I don't particularly care about who dies, who lives, who rules, or whatever. - but then again, that's why I am normally right ... because the only thing I do give a crap about is uncompromised balance, that's why when I say something, I say what needs to be done, if people want compromise they can go to hell
Scikar says:
ill admit its not really balanced
Scikar says:
but before the patch, nobody died
Scikar says:
it took 3 clips of CS and a PE would still be alive
Scikar says:
just think for a second how hard it is to kill someone when you have to hit him 15 times without him healing once, and when he's stealthing everywhere
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
That's an exageration...
Scikar says:
its not, i tested with vet
Scikar says:
his pe setup survived 3 clips of CS from 3 different tanks
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
Heh, dude, Vett is one of the three best PEs on Neocron, and he only has that defence (DISPITE what he says) when he has drugged for it.
Scikar says:
ok so take the average then, what difference does it make?
Scikar says:
say 2 clips of CS, is that unreasonable>?
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
2 clips = 8 or 10 bursts?
Scikar says:
10
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
PEs don't measure clips we measure bursts...
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
typical non-drugged defence for hi-tech PEs is 8-10 bursts, yea.
Scikar says:
ok, now throw in stealth
Scikar says:
and add in the fact that at every oppurtinity he's hitting heal, thats giving him 105 hp
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
lol
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
so what?
Scikar says:
so they didnt die
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
GOOD Tanks should be able to do that too.
Scikar says:
no, nobody should
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
I was refering to the heal.
Scikar says:
bah
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
As for PE Defence
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
it's FINE, it has to be better than a tanks to balance out tank attack
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
YES Stealth is a problem
Scikar says:
stop getting so defensive, im not saying its just PE defence
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
but there are FAR more ways to fix it than to remove it.
Scikar says:
im saying its everyones defence
Scikar says:
did it never strike as you being a little bit counter intuitive when you empty 3 clips of lib ammo into someone and he's not dead?
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
Even when played at their maximum combat effectiveness, everyone, including PPUs, can/will typically die in a 1on1 situation given both players are equal in skill and prepaired.
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
heh
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
dumping 3 clips of lib ammo into someone and them being still alive was something I attributed to using pistols
Scikar says:
it was true of everything though
Scikar says:
even CS - we're looking at average players, so they're not hitting with every shot
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
105/min - 50-100 hp per hit, 400-500 hp per person, how long does it take someone to die?
Scikar says:
HL deals twice as much damage as anything else
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
*waits for you to fall into a specific trap*
Scikar says:
you cant say oh HL kills people fairly quick so therefore everyone's defence is fine
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
heh you didn't say what i expected
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
so i'll say my next comment anyway...
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
the more you increase EVERYONEs offence
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
the more underpowered APUs will become, by default, because they depend on their massive offence as their only real defence, sufficing to say, even if HL were increased in proportion to the other weaponry, every increase would work to the PE/Tanks/Spies benefit in terms of damage vs defence
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
as much as you don't like your "nobody dies" view - it isn't true, but the reality of the problem is damage vs defence currently these levels are the closest to balance there will be...
Originally posted by t0tt3
Spy = long range + stealth "good defence"
APU = pistol range + ? nothing "crap defence"
i think u mean apu = pistol range + IMMENSE DAMAGE
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 00:46
Scikar says:
as much as it would pain shadow for me to say it, i dont think its worth trying to balance apus in 1v1 any more because the vast majority would never consider 1v1 anyway
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
it doesn't matter
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
if you balance an apu for a 1vs1 situation
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
and then use my single, simple, clear, uncompromised ppu balance/reliance adjusting idea, it stops mattering, because apus are still balanced, even when PPUs are around.
Scikar says:
well lets put apus aside for a minute
Scikar says:
after the latest patch we've seen CS, Devourer, Judge, Beam of Hell, Healing Light, Executioner all get a boost
Scikar says:
oh and speedgun
Scikar says:
and slasher
Scikar says:
the result is, lib is a little underpowered
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
untrue
Scikar says:
rolh is maybe a little lower than it should be, rog is where it should be
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
the lib was previously overpowered just impossible to aim reliably enough to take advantage of that fact
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
when they fixed the aiming i would suspect liberator became overpowered
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
if they fixed the aiming
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
vett said they did but that means fa to me
Scikar says:
well anyway if i was making the decisions
Scikar says:
i'd give lib its burst bonus back
Scikar says:
tweak its aiming
Scikar says:
then balance it for a tl91 pistol
Scikar says:
im happy with everything else
Scikar says:
though of course i would say that cos im a tank
Scikar says:
it did piss me off before though that all chars in general were too difficult to kill
Scikar says:
i used to die in fights more than anyone else, not because i was fighting any worse but because i refused to run away, despite the fact i knew i could have easily survived
Scikar says:
oh and i think pain easer has been boosted as well
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
Scikar says:
i used to die in fights more than anyone else, not because i was fighting any worse but because i refused to run away, despite the fact i knew i could have easily survived
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
same deal
Scikar says:
and thats why i like this patch, because if you are winning the fight then it generally ends in your opponent dying, unlike earlier when you would be winning the fight so the other person just runs away
Scikar says:
anyway brb i need a drink
Scikar says:
so, now we come to apus
Scikar says:
what do you think about them now?
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
They, like every other class in the game are losely based on 1on1 combat
Scikar says:
and? are they strong or weak?
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
when alone
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
they're fine
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
when backed by a PPU they gain far too much of an advantage over anyone else backed by a ppu
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
primarily, because shelter brings their defence up far enough, to be fairly comperable with tanks/pes
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
this is the crux of the PPU problem
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
Shelter and Deflector unbalance class vs class combat
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
hense "monkocron" at op wars and APU+PPU being the most effective combo
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
should be a simple/basic premise that most people can see
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
....but they don't
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
however
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
once you realise this
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
the way to fix it becomes completely obvious
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
what's more, the way to fix it makes PPUs less important on the battle field.
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
whilst not actually "nerfing" the PPU itself
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
Simply; make Shelter and Deflector "self cast" only.
Scikar says:
yeah i know
Scikar says:
but we've been down that road once already with this community
Scikar says:
some realised it would solve the whole problem and went for it
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
I know but every time the idea is posted more people realise the reality
Scikar says:
others either couldnt see it or refused to
Scikar says:
this is the whole reason why we need a balancing commitee
Scikar says:
the devs cant see the solutions because they dont know the game well enough
Scikar says:
and the community as a whole is too short sighted to look at anything in the long term
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
I know
Self cast S/D explained.
It's ironic, the vets/regs/good players around are sayin yes the rest are crying...
QD, can you copy&paste your main reasons for supporting this again?
Might cut down on some of the silly replies...
lol nm :)
If s/d was made self-castable...
Tanks: Do very good damage, and last a long time.
PE's: Do good damage, and last a long time and some have ability to stealth.
PPU: Do poor damage, last forever, can still heal/shock/db/partial buff others.
APU: Uber damage, last about a bit longer then a spy.
Pistol/Rifle spy: Very good damage, dont last long, but can stealth.
Droner: Good damage, last forever and some can stealth.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
It's ironic, the vets/regs/good players around are sayin yes the rest are crying...
It's the way it always is with things like this.
:confused:
Originally posted by cRazy2003
i think u mean apu = pistol range + IMMENSE DAMAGE
17 HLs to kill a tank :rolleyes:
You are right it IS IMMENSE DAMAGE !!!!!!!!!!!!
Originally posted by t0tt3
17 HLs to kill a tank :rolleyes:
You are right it IS IMMENSE DAMAGE !!!!!!!!!!!!
I used to be able to kill a capped tank with my capped apu, in like 6-10 HL's, about 10-20 seconds or so if he wasnt firing on me.
fw(uranus-capped apu) used to(used to!) be able to 1v1 anyone I ever seen and win.
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 00:51
When based on natural 1on1 situations...
The Maximum operational capacity of the PE (including drugs) is balanced with the Maximum operational capacity of the Tank.
In turn, the Maximum operational capacity of the Rifle Spy, is balanced with the Maximum operational capacity of the PE, or the Tank. (It's just that the tank doesn't REALLY need drugs to get close to this theoretical maximum).
The APU is mostly balanced with these classes at their operational maximum as well, it's Energy damage is very slightly too high, and it's Fire and Poison damage is too low, in ranged situations the APUs slight "Overpowered nature" is also visible.
Ignoring Parashock and Damage Boost for the time being, as soon as you introduce the PPU this happens;
APUs become the most powerful of all the classes(100%).
Tanks become the second most powerful of all the classes(90%).
Spies become the third most powerful of all the classes(80%).
PEs become the weakest(75%).
Please note APU and PPU are seperate classes for the purpose of this explanation, the reasoning for the above statements follows thusly;
PEs, who were previously balanced with the other classes, loses their defencive "advantage" from PSI, since Everyone has the same level of PSI defence, Natural CON, Armor defence, and Character Offence become the most important things available to the character itself.
APUs, who are naturally the weakest defencive character at their operational maximum (spies, stfu, this is true, if you think otherwise you NEED To go look at your character again), are naturally the strongest character in the game.
Their defence has just been boosted by 45% of whatever the remaining defence malus was between them and the 76% mark of all resists, Including Holy Heal they become very difficult to kill, and therefore due to their massive explosive damage become by far the most effective fighter to couple with a PPU.
Tanks, who are naturally(armor/con) the highest defencive character with good offence gain the defencive ground they would otherwise have lost on the PE / Spy due to their PSI.
This means that, if they could take advantage of their TSG/CS with holy heal running on them, they would be even more difficult to kill than an APU and would be able to naturally provide a LOT of damage output, though not quite as powerful as the APU.
Spies, who are naturally(traditionally) a defencively weak class that can actually drug for Shelter and use Deflector proficiently, lose the small PSI bonus they gained (drugging for shelter), on the tank, because of buffs, however still have a decently respectable arsenal of weaponry to use at high level (Disruptor, RoG, PE, RoLH, FL(...this is dependant on situation), and a few other of the good DEX Weapons), keeping them above the PE.
PEs, who are naturally average at defence(again CON/Armor), now totally cap out their resists in terms of the 76% rule, however, are still far exceeded by Tanks, and almost equalled by APUs(the main difference there being HLT), however, only have semi-respectable RoLH damage, Liberator, Pain Easer, Judge or RoG. ~ While RoG/RoLH/Liberator are respectable, Lib's aiming is bugged, RoG doesn't compete with CS when the defence of he characters is so close to equal, and RoLH is still too high a weapon to get the best stats on unless you're willing to make fairly drastic defencive cuts.
This means, that quite naturally, before Damage Boost or Parashock, or anything else is brought into the equation, PPUs make APUs the dominant class in the op fight.
The solution, is actually quite simple so long as you don't mind the fact that PPUs will ALWAYS be a benefit to the team no matter what...
25% self-heal malus for holy heal, 50% Malus on others.
Removal of Parashock.
Removal of Holy Cath Sanctum.
Boosting of Holy Cath (more usable).
Boosting of HAB (more usable).
Overridable buffs.
The loss of ability to rezz a corpse after 2-3minutes, unless the corpse is in a hunting zone.
PPU PA now gives no defence bonus at all, however gives better PPU bonuses.
Holy Deflector is weakened 25% on the PPU (n.b not accumalitive with the 50% malus on others).
edit;
I forgot, Hybrid Penalisation shouldn't be 30%, however 20-25% is a better option.
BTW, Celt, HL RoF is 105, 10 HLs would be less than 6 seconds :)
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
BTW, Celt, HL RoF is 105, 10 HLs would be less than 6 seconds :)
I had capped rof, and never actually fired 105 a minute :(
Never fired at 150/minute either.
Also they had the bug where like every second hit wasnt counted.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
It's ironic, the vets/regs/good players around are sayin yes the rest are crying...
So all of a sudden I´m a n00b just because I don´t support further nerfs on the PPU ?
Yea sure.. PPU... invincible... try shooting a PPU just in between S/D off and S/D on..
i can tell ya.. its 130 dmg per burst from a cs.
hmm.. wonder what a speedy could do in this time..
Stop hitting people over and over for their opinions....
Anti Buffs got introduced.. hmm. wonder what they were trying to do with Anti Buff spells *hint* *hint*
Let people have their opinions without shouting NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOB into their face..
Come ingame.. haven´t seen you in ages..
Then we´ll go NF, have fun...
let´s stop all these nerfings.. its been ages since I´ve seen this much balance..
leave it for a while.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Scikar says:
well maybe on the apu side
Thats the thing in your WHOLE thread....
All you talk about is PE vs Tank.
APU:s get nothing in your chat... just hey uber dmg vs low defence.
The thing is today THEY DONT HAVE IT!!!
If a APU should have UBER dmg... They should drop a tank in 4 - 6 HLs flat with this range we got now. It aint hard to just run upfront a APU today and kick his as with a speedy feet and blast him away with a CS, even a fast noob could do that ^^
Thank lord they changed from ATL to AGL else we would be allready dead. Speed is our only defence..
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
QuantumDelta says:
BTW, Celt, HL RoF is 105, 10 HLs would be less than 6 seconds :)
Well if you count out bugg'o'cron I agree but today we dont do 105 RoF thats less then a hit a sec, count in wtf? fizzels and shit or even try to play a APU for a while :p They can get REAL buggy sometimes and cap a pool and dmg is near impossible if you dont have a DS "if you even can do that???" If you cap the pool you will have crap dmg vice versa..
And APU and DS :lol: TL 115 poker ?
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
QuantumDelta says:
Tott3;
Talk to SD.
Well waws this before all nerfs? I agree with you I even thought about it my selfe but that was BEFORE all the APU nerfs today I can just say a plain NO..... :(
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 00:56
Originally posted by Celt
I had capped rof, and never actually fired 105 a minute :(
Never fired at 150/minute either.
Also they had the bug where like every second hit wasnt counted. Thought they fixed that bug...?
Never noticed it on my Parabeam o_O
Naimex;
You're a tank.
Balanced? heh.
Tott3;
Talk to SD.
And, FYI, one tank couldn't kill my PPU whether he had S/D on or not.
Originally posted by naimex
Yea sure.. PPU... invincible... try shooting a PPU just in between S/D off and S/D on..
i can tell ya.. its 130 dmg per burst from a cs.
hmm.. wonder what a speedy could do in this time..
Should try that on Omen Koulikov, or any of the other famous ppu's.
Omen used to take 60? from a full cs burst.
Clownst0pper
13-02-04, 00:58
Sorry but I h8 this idea, My tank would go down faster than britney spears on Colin Farel without a Holy Shelter, effectivly making him useless when without a Shelter a good APU can usually ******** me before I even get to them
Originally posted by Celt
Should try that on Omen Koulikov, or any of the other famous ppu's.
Omen used to take 60? from a full cs burst.
^^ I tried on a PPU with capped energy resists and heavy resists in ammo mod resists.. 130 dmg.. without s/d.. 30 dmg with s/d.
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 01:00
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
Sorry but I h8 this idea, My tank would go down faster than britney spears on Colin Farel without a Holy Shelter, effectivly making him useless when without a Shelter a good APU can usually ******** me before I even get to them :lol:
Did you read the other people complaining in the thread?
LOL The APUs I mean? :)
Dribble Joy
13-02-04, 01:01
But tank + holy shelter >>>> PE with holy shelter.
PE self buffs give him more or less the same defence as if given holy shields by a PPU, therefore PPUs totla unbalance the defence/offence ratio, with APUs it's even worse.
Psycho Killa
13-02-04, 01:01
PPUS
WOULD
NOT
BE
USELESS!
Shit fucking usless heal, usless buffs, usless peice of shit bringing people back to life fucking usless useless useless.
Clownst0pper
13-02-04, 01:02
Did you read the other people complaining in the thread?
Not really QD m8, I care about my classes, not everyone elses, and with my Cannon out im running slower than an asmatic granny going for her pension.
A slow tank with no shelter is a dead tank, at least APU's can run round like a chicken with its head cut off. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by naimex
^^ I tried on a PPU with capped energy resists and heavy resists in ammo mod resists.. 130 dmg.. without s/d.. 30 dmg with s/d.
What kind of ppu was that?
THIRTY with holy shelter?
You must be joking...
Dribble Joy
13-02-04, 01:02
Tanks are NOT slow. ffs.
u do realize that this change would stop the chance of a small force winning against a large force?
Clownst0pper
13-02-04, 01:03
PE self buffs give him more or less the same defence as if given holy shields by a PPU, therefore PPUs totla unbalance the defence/offence ratio, with APUs it's even worse.
Your also speaking out your bum hole.
ONOZ DBL POST!
Originally posted by Celt
What kind of ppu was that?
THIRTY with holy shelter?
You must be joking...
you should try it.. no heal.. just resist spell + holy s/d
without heal.. a PPU is just as easy to pull down as any other class.
Clownst0pper
13-02-04, 01:04
Tanks are NOT slow. ffs
Compared to APUs and PEs with weapons out, Yes.
In general, No.
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
Not really QD m8, I care about my classes, not everyone elses, and with my Cannon out im running slower than an asmatic granny going for her pension.
A slow tank with no shelter is a dead tank, at least APU's can run round like a chicken with its head cut off. :rolleyes:
My first char was a tank, and pvp'ed him a hell of a lot until last april or so, yeah being slow presented its difficulties, but I could hold my own against other tanks, PE's, and sometimes even uber hybrids :O
Originally posted by naimex
you should try it.. no heal.. just resist spell + holy s/d
without heal.. a PPU is just as easy to pull down as any other class.
I have tried it. :)
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
It's ironic, the vets/regs/good players around are sayin yes the rest are crying...
I say no, I am a good player.
So I guess that makes what you said.
Pure unfounded egotistical bullshit comment.
I am amazed.
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
PPUS
WOULD
NOT
BE
USELESS!
Shit fucking usless heal, usless buffs, usless peice of shit bringing people back to life fucking usless useless useless.
No but APUs would be :p
and with this nerf you REALLY needed a PPU strapon to your ass to survive :p
Clownst0pper
13-02-04, 01:06
My first char was a tank, and pvp'ed him a hell of a lot until last april or so, yeah being slow presented its difficulties, but I could hold my own against other tanks, PE's, and sometimes even uber hybrids
I know im lying, but it helps my argument :angel: :lol:
Dribble Joy
13-02-04, 01:07
Without PPU the defence/offence ratio of tanks/PEs/Spies/APUs is more or less balanced.
As soon as PPUs come into it this is utterly destroyed.
APUs, who previously had the highest offence and lowest defence, now have the highest offence and defence above that of a PE.
Tanks who previously had medium defence and offence, now gain a huge defence bonus, but much less in proportion to what the APU gained.
Spies gain some defence boost.
PEs gain NOTHING.
How is that fair?
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
Without PPU the defence/offence ration of tanks/PEs/Spies/APUs is more or less balanced.
As soon as PPUs come into it the is utterly destroyed.
APUs, who previously had the highest offence and lowest defence, now have the highest offence and defence above that of a PE.
Tanks who previously had medium defence and offence, now gain a huge defence bonus, but much less in proportion to what the APU gained.
Spies gain some defence boost.
PEs gain NOTHING.
How is that fair?
So during an OP fight, you would rather have own buffs than that of a PPUs ???
Clownst0pper
13-02-04, 01:09
Why do tanks gain a defence bonus?
PE's have equal defence to us, if not better.
APU's defense is there offence (who can take down most tanks before we get to them)
and spys are..well, spys are always gonna be shit :lol:
Originally posted by naimex
So during an OP fight, you would rather have own buffs than that of a PPUs ???
I think he means, there defence is barely improved compared to selfcast...
Psycho Killa
13-02-04, 01:10
Originally posted by t0tt3
No but APUs would be :p
and with this nerf you REALLY needed a PPU strapon to your ass to survive :p
Omg so like the tanks would have to stand in the front lines and... TANK?! lol wtf dude.
And apus would have to stand in the background and omg be SUPPORT FIRE? Lol who the fuck had that crazy idea.
Incase you didnt notice holy heal is sick and can keep you alive a very long time by itself.
Shelter about 35 percent protect casted on someone else....
Holy heal 34 a tick....
34!!
Also unnerf holy lightning with this just dont give it back its old max damage.
Originally posted by Celt
Pistol/Rifle spy: Very good damage, dont last long, but can stealth.
very good damage? hahahaa
i wish
i really do
for starters ive never actually managed to completely cap everyone on a FL and disruptor and if u dont use those guns then u do the same damage as a PE, pritty simple.
and spies last a lot less then APU's, A LOT LESS apus have so much more energy resist then spies, its a load of bs i think
Dribble Joy
13-02-04, 01:11
Originally posted by naimex
So during an OP fight, you would rather have own buffs than that of a PPUs ???
Unless the PPU has capped shields, no. I prefer to use my own shields.
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 01:11
Originally posted by Gestra
I say no, I am a good player.
So I guess that makes what you said.
Pure unfounded egotistical bullshit comment.
I am amazed. Your reasoning?
Since my own is on display.
No one has actually given decent, or even remotely statistic evidence against this.
Heh.
Oh yea PPUs would be useless btw guys, just try it these days a PPU in your squad can S/D you but not heal you, then tell me what the difference is.
Good PPUs first buffs are heal, S, D, in that order.
If it's not an APU D isn't always worth it anyway, if it's a PE D is never needed.
clown;
DJ isn't actually talking crap when he is talking about the balance issues S/D gives the 1on1 situation in classes.
If you were to read the paragraph style explanation you would see the reasoning behind it, or his last post...
sigh;
PEs get 30% protection out of their SELF CAST Shelter.
PPUs Foreign cast Holy shelter when CAPPED gives 35% protection.
PEs actually LOSE defence if they receive a foreign casted Holy Deflector.
Blessed Deflector (S/C) is better.
Tanks, who's defence with a PE is balanced more or less exactly (consider the HP difference and you will note the PEs slight resist difference isn't so great as it looks on paper) the same as a BUFFED (Self cast) PE goes completely out the window.
PEs DO NOT IN ANY SIGNIFICANT way gain defence from PPU buffs.
Tanks,
APUs,
Spies, do.
Instantly this puts the previously balanced-to-other-classes PEs under everyone else.
Now that part is out of the way;
Once both are under a PPUs S/D the APU and Tank whom previously are balanced, become unbalanced, because the APUs attack is far higher than the tanks (less prominent in recent patches, will need to be tweaked with this change, but, of course this change was designed for an older version of neocron, a few patches ago before KK FECKERED everything), it means that APUs should, by all means, beat the tanks.
Simply because the defence difference is not significant, and the offence difference is.
Hense all classes are unbalanced by foreign cast PPU S/D.
If you can't see that you really are stupid :p
Dunno why all say APU are the most powerd attacker.
I cant kill a PPU running with HL only I need to HAB and then try HL HL HL HL, but his heal and S/D on fast as hell is almost doable..
Then I see tanks run up to PPUS with a dev and spray spray dead [just watch FANG movie 2] :lol: yea right make my APU do like that :D ;)
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Omg so like the tanks would have to stand in the front lines and... TANK?! lol wtf dude.
And apus would have to stand in the background and omg be SUPPORT FIRE? Lol who the fuck had that crazy idea.
Incase you didnt notice holy heal is sick and can keep you alive a very long time by itself.
Shelter about 35 percent protect casted on someone else....
Holy heal 34 a tick....
34!!
Also unnerf holy lightning with this just dont give it back its old max damage.
?? you only get 34 ?? must be a bad heal..
I get 64 ..
blumblumshub
13-02-04, 01:12
Yes, we must nerf PPU monks some more.
It's the only way to maintain balance.
But only if we nerf a tank's damage too, and a droner's droning ability, and an apu's damage, and a hacker's hacking, and, and, and...
You see, the whole idea of different classes is that they specialise in one thing, but as part of a team can all work together and kick arse.
A tank kills things with great big guns, and is damn good at it.
An APU monk kills and fries the eggs in a morning, and is damn good at it.
A hacker hacks ops and splits broken warbots in half, and is damn good at it.
A PPU monk keeps your team alive and is damn good at it.
A droner... well, he just gets in the way really, but he IS damn good at it.
For 1v1 a ppu can buff, heal, freeze and run away, and there's nothing at all wrong with that. In team pvp he is an essential cog in the machine. If you take away any of his abilities then you are diminishing everyone's teams.
Why the hell keep nerfing things? It just pisses people off and... erm... pisses people off.
Aren't you bored of having the monks nerfed?
Nerf teh tank for a farking change!
Blum
Clownst0pper
13-02-04, 01:12
Unless the PPU has capped shields, no. I prefer to use my own shields.
Thats probably why your always face down in grim shit :lol:
Originally posted by cRazy2003
very good damage? hahahaa
i wish
i really do
for starters ive never actually managed to completely cap everyone on a FL and disruptor and if u dont use those guns then u do the same damage as a PE, pritty simple.
and spies last a lot less then APU's, A LOT LESS apus have so much more energy resist then spies, its a load of bs i think
uh, first love & disruptor HURTS, dunno exact stats but I think as much as a CS, if not more.
Add in range, runspeed & stealth...
Clownst0pper
13-02-04, 01:13
uh, first love & disruptor HURTS, dunno exact stats but I think as much as a CS, if not more.
Not that much TBH, most people will never cap a FL without Kami rifle chip.
And then there defence suffers.
The dmg on them needs a boost, but generally spys will never be effective close combat fighters, they only are with a holy shelter. :eek:
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
Not that much TBH, most people will never cap a FL without Kami rifle chip.
And then there defence suffers.
The dmg on them needs a boost, but generally spys will never be effective close combat fighters, they only are with a holy shelter. :eek:
Spies arent meant to be tanks FFS.
Balance doesnt mean all classes do exact same dmg at exact same range in the exact same way.
Spies arent for 1v1 with a devourer tank, in an op war spies can really shine..
Dribble Joy
13-02-04, 01:15
It's a simple matter of maths.
A holy S or D gives 70% absorbtion (if capped). 35% to another person.
A PE shelter or deflector is very very close to this, PEs using their own shields means the PPU can get on with more important things, LIKE HEAL.
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
Thats probably why your always face down in grim shit :lol:
kao...
PE shields > PPU shields (when cast on the PE)
Clownst0pper
13-02-04, 01:17
PE shields > PPU shields
Someone please inform me how a capped holy shelter can ever be worse than a tl 25 shelter? that a PE can never cap :confused:
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Omg so like the tanks would have to stand in the front lines and... TANK?! lol wtf dude.
And apus would have to stand in the background and omg be SUPPORT FIRE? Lol who the fuck had that crazy idea.
Incase you didnt notice holy heal is sick and can keep you alive a very long time by itself.
Shelter about 35 percent protect casted on someone else....
Holy heal 34 a tick....
34!!
Also unnerf holy lightning with this just dont give it back its old max damage.
:lol: and cast holy heal 24/7 ? what do you call that???? I would call it a strapon.... you say it your selfe a heal is 15 s.. a cs can clip a APU easy if you cut thier legs off.
Psycho Killa
13-02-04, 01:17
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
Thats probably why your always face down in grim shit :lol:
Private Eye shelter 25? to 35? percent absorb something around that.
Capped CAPPED (Note you have to be a pretty up there ppu with the best of the best stuff to cap a holy shelter.)
70 percent absorb. Divide that by 2 (50 percent foreign cast nerf)
35 percent!
Clownst0pper
13-02-04, 01:18
Sorry but I doubt that completely.
Then dont you think its about time we nerfed the PE shelter?
ONOZ ITS CLOSE TO A HOLY SHELTER!
NERF
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
Sorry but I doubt that completely.
Then dont you think its about time we nerfed the PE shelter?
ONOZ ITS CLOSE TO A HOLY SHELTER!
NERF
lol
Psycho Killa
13-02-04, 01:19
Originally posted by t0tt3
:lol: and cast holy heal 24/7 ? what do you call that???? I would call it a strapon.... you say it your selfe a heal is 15 s.. a cs can clip a APU easy if you cut thier legs off.
Um totte did you miss the point where I said in an op fight you would have to stand behind tanks and let them take most of the damage???
You would then use beams and fire away at the enemy.
Unnerf holy lightning also Imagine taking people out with an unnerfed holy lightning and no shelter :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
Sorry but I doubt that completely.
Then dont you think its about time we nerfed the PE shelter?
ONOZ ITS CLOSE TO A HOLY SHELTER!
NERF
It's only half as good as a holy shelter on other people.
Doubt it or not, it just shows why you shouldnt have an input on the situation :D
Clownst0pper
13-02-04, 01:20
lol
GG no re :lol:
I vote yes, primes AND holy heal does enough.
Psycho Killa
13-02-04, 01:20
Originally posted by Celt
Doubt it or not, it just shows why you shouldnt have an input on the situation :D
:lol:
Exactly
hmmm if this keeps up this thread will be 50 pages long before morning :p
Clownst0pper
13-02-04, 01:21
Doubt it or not, it just shows why you shouldnt have an input on the situation
LOL ive had a PE for a year, I just dont delve into the maths of it all, I always knew Shelter helped shitloads, but not that much! :eek:
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 01:21
edit;bleh.
Clown - it's a long explanation, but basically, without PE shelter being where it is, it wouldn't be balanced in a 1on1 vs a tank, or an apu.
but, with PE shelter being where it is, as soon as a PPU is entered into the mix, the PE gets arse fecked back to the stonage -_-
ive thought about this alot since it was first brought up at first i thought w00t good idea
the more i think about the praticality of it not a chance in hell.
it only works if you consider pvp only and opwars only etc.
if you consider pvm etc then its well tbh bullshit
doy bots/ apparition/ chaoscaves/ grim chasers/ gaya mines / MC5
would all become impossiable for people like the spy and low lvl tanks and pes
a pe can shelter later on fair enough a tank eventually gets a good enough cons to take a few blows
spys would be fucked
apus who cares they dont need los to fight there would also be other knock on effects too. like duration of op fights would be like 20 seconds.
however a pe vs a pe duel would last forever as 2 good pes can just out heal each others damage would also mean the last man standing at opwars would most likely be a pe and you would get nothing but pe and ppu turning up to op wars
Clownst0pper
13-02-04, 01:23
90% of this community are bloody morons.
Oh Oh!
Im so part of the 10% that isnt!
W00T
blumblumshub
13-02-04, 01:23
Yes, and quite boring
Dribble Joy
13-02-04, 01:23
Shelter/Blessed Def is the only thing that makes PEs viable.
Give the same thing to all the other classes and it fucks them (and the other classes too).
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Um totte did you miss the point where I said in an op fight you would have to stand behind tanks and let them take most of the damage???
You would then use beams and fire away at the enemy.
Unnerf holy lightning also Imagine taking people out with an unnerfed holy lightning and no shelter :rolleyes:
hmm how? Seen the range latley OOOOOH you are a ppu sorry PK :(
But they nerfed it to shite and I cant stand behind tanks I need to go line to line with them to hit anything, sure I can stand behind and HAB all day long "which I do to help my clan" but then I aint a UBER attacker just a support debuffer to help them kill..
If they take away the SD shite to others then I dont need to HAB because ppus today are really GOOOOOD if they see HAB booom S/D up in notime, really they do :(
So first I aim at apus then tanks then last comes PPU
peace O_o
Originally posted by t0tt3
hmmm if this keeps up this thread will be 50 pages long before morning :p
It will be far more if we spam...
:rolleyes:
ONOZ I LOST 2 IN COMBAT RANKING ON MY TANK FOR GOING FROM 106 TO 89 TC !!! ARGH !! WTF WTF WTF !! Oh well I got 1 combat rank for gaining ´CON !!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No seriously.. Stop the nerfings.. stop the boosts.. things are fine the way they are..
(Oh besides.. could you plz lower the tank and monk PA4 ?? its annoying you have to drug to even wear it..)
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 01:25
Hinch;
KK has shown a lot of times they can adjust the level of mob strength.
If you remember correctly the reason mobs are so strong right now is because KK acknowledged the fact that PPU made leveling FARRRRRRRRR too easy (already was far too easy, almost made the PPU pointless), with this, all that would be needed would be a slight Mob nerf too.
Not hard :)
Originally posted by naimex
It will be far more if we spam...
:rolleyes:
hmm I can spam 2 more threads... edit 3 times to answer so duh :p
Doh last spam post :rolleyes:
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Hinch;
KK has shown a lot of times they can adjust the level of mob strength.
hehehe *loms to hyb* MC5 !!!! yaaaaaay fuck you all this is mine
do that :rolleyes:
Dribble Joy
13-02-04, 01:28
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Hinch;
KK has shown a lot of times they can adjust the level of mob strength.
Hehehe, I remember happily killing grim chasers and then one day, BOOM!! they suddenly have twice the armour, twice the hp and do shit load of dmg.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Hinch;
KK has shown a lot of times they can adjust the level of mob strength.
If you remember correctly the reason mobs are so strong right now is because KK acknowledged the fact that PPU made leveling FARRRRRRRRR too easy (already was far too easy, almost made the PPU pointless), with this, all that would be needed would be a slight Mob nerf too.
Not hard :)
Theres been what, 4 increases of mob strengths since last january?
Pretty sure they've doubled hp and output damage, doubled again, increase fire again, and increased poison
your overlooking the point re lowering the mobs again then means you would get pes at their current strength now soloing places like mc5.
balance isnt far off atm the weapons just need realigning and monks need to be fixed properly for once not some half assed attempt
tanks are currently perfect as are pes as are spys in fact im seeing more and more pistol spys at opwars these days and droners
last 3 op fights ive been to has had 2 ppus monks and 1 apu on our side that was it rest was tanks and spys so balance is clearly around the corner just apus are almost useless again :) appart from that leave be
Originally posted by hinch
your overlooking the point re lowering the mobs again then means you would get pes at their current strength now soloing places like mc5.
balance isnt far off atm the weapons just need realigning and monks need to be fixed properly for once not some half assed attempt
tanks are currently perfect as are pes as are spys in fact im seeing more and more pistol spys at opwars these days and droners
last 3 op fights ive been to has had 2 ppus monks and 1 apu on our side that was it rest was tanks and spys so balance is clearly around the corner just apus are almost useless again :) appart from that leave be
You are so good at saying things.. this was really really close to what was in my head.
i'm down with that idea,
IF
the speedhit from cannons gets removed
AND
turrets get nerfed to shit
Clownst0pper
13-02-04, 01:31
If you remember correctly the reason mobs are so strong right now is because KK acknowledged the fact that PPU made leveling FARRRRRRRRR too easy
Shame most of the grim chasers are 2 hard, with capped BH and Fire resist they still fuck my tank up. :mad:
Originally posted by hinch
last 3 op fights ive been to has had 2 ppus monks and 1 apu on our side that was it rest was tanks and spys so balance is clearly around the corner just apus are almost useless again :) appart from that leave be
Hinch you are so right :(
We are a dead :p the only thing I do in a OP fight is hmmm.
1: Hack first layer "piss easy with 86 base Hack..."
2: Holy firestorm the UG "come up and die cum bags :p"
3: HAB HAB HAB HAB HAB
4: APU aaaaaaaaah duel :D *booooom dev tank in my ass*
GG no re :(
Originally posted by hinch
your overlooking the point re lowering the mobs again then means you would get pes at their current strength now soloing places like mc5.
balance isnt far off atm the weapons just need realigning and monks need to be fixed properly for once not some half assed attempt
tanks are currently perfect as are pes as are spys in fact im seeing more and more pistol spys at opwars these days and droners
last 3 op fights ive been to has had 2 ppus monks and 1 apu on our side that was it rest was tanks and spys so balance is clearly around the corner just apus are almost useless again :) appart from that leave be
At this stage, any player, even a 0/2 with a stilletto can kill 99% of the mobs in the game, including 120/120's, if they have a near capped ppu up their ass.
What your point boils down to, isnt about balance, its about laziness in pvm.
I've solo levelled my droner, rifle spy, hc tank, hybrid then apu monk.
It's hard work, takes time, BUT GODDAMIT DONT BE SO BLOODY LAZY!
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
Shame most of the grim chasers are 2 hard, with capped BH and Fire resist they still fuck my tank up. :mad:
Must be doing something wrong.. my tank doesnt mind them.
wearing PvP armor that is.
Clownst0pper
13-02-04, 01:34
Must be doing something wrong.. my tank does mind them.
Can take alot of hammer, still ********** tho, not sure why :confused:
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
Can take alot of hammer, still ********** tho, not sure why :confused:
if you had ur char on uranus, i could go shoot you with shit.. see whats the problem with ur tank :p or you could just PM me your setup, then I can have a look at it, and try to figure out whats wrong.. my resists are teh ubar :)
Clownst0pper
13-02-04, 01:37
if you had ur char on uranus, i could go shoot you with shit.. see whats the problem with ur tank :P or you could just PM me your setup, then I can have a look at it, and try to figure out whats wrong.. my resists are teh ubar
Will PM you then Tomoz, Going to have some sex now. Later guys :D
Dribble Joy
13-02-04, 01:37
Originally posted by Celt
It's hard work, takes time, BUT GODDAMIT DONT BE SO BLOODY LAZY!
Hehe, indeed. I capped my PE before I knew about using built shields or heals. I was using a 2 slot judge before ppr/moveon/SA with group heal, soloing grims out at tescom :p.
Originally posted by Celt
At this stage, any player, even a 0/2 with a stilletto can kill 99% of the mobs in the game, including 120/120's, if they have a near capped ppu up their ass.
actually no they cant
little demonstration time
cyl0n created an apu monk on jupiter now i have a pure ppu there
i am fully capped i do cap all my spells
we went out with his 0/2 to kill a chaser he was fully buffed had a holy heal on and a heal sanctum running
we did kill the chaser he had to be ressurected 6 times and that was with constant heal on him he didnt loose it for 1 second
remove shelter and theres no way in hell that i was out healing any of the mobs outside tg.
perhaps if you remove the 50% fcast minus then you may start talking sense but as you say heal can already negate most damage anyway so at full strength forget it.
leave the fuck alone for the last time you do not balance games for a living you do not do this as a professional you have ideas.
ideas which for the best will in the world may sound nice but you dont know the ins and outs of it all you dont know the big picture.
suggest and make your idea of points but do not dare argue over what other people say as their points may be as valid as yours.
remember both sides of the equation can be true whilst at the same time not balancing up. this is the problem faced when designing a game especially one as complex as the nc system.
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
Will PM you then Tomoz, Going to have some sex now. Later guys :D
lol HH, Happy Humping..
[EDIT : I think I just got an idea... let´s make Resurrection self cast only.. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ]
Originally posted by naimex
[EDIT : I think I just got an idea... let´s make Resurrection self cast only.. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ]
Since you can heal and ressurrect, doesn't that negate the absolute neccesity to keep everyone alive via godmod... er...
*coughs*
s/d
Originally posted by hinch
[B]actually no they cant
little demonstration time
cyl0n created an apu monk on jupiter now i have a pure ppu there
i am fully capped i do cap all my spells
we went out with his 0/2 to kill a chaser he was fully buffed had a holy heal on and a heal sanctum running
we did kill the chaser he had to be ressurected 6 times and that was with constant heal on him he didnt loose it for 1 second
I've ppu'ed for a /10 spy against fire mobs(all of 'em), as well as been ppu'ed for as a newbie spy...
I died a few times, but that was due to grims getting in between us...
leave the fuck alone for the last time you do not balance games for a living you do not do this as a professional you have ideas.
No-one balances games for a living, nor are their any professionals at it.
The best coder in the world can still make shit balance decisions, and the worst coder can make the best.
ideas which for the best will in the world may sound nice but you dont know the ins and outs of it all you dont know the big picture.
We dont?
It's pretty easy to grasp, but if you cant grasp it, it's no-one's problem but yours :angel:
suggest and make your idea of points but do not dare argue over what other people say as their points may be as valid as yours.
They may be, but a lot of the time they arent.
That's why we argue, because a lot of them(like yours) dont hold up to scrutiny.
Guess what, people played, levelled, and capped before ppu's.
Prodigious
13-02-04, 01:46
i got to page 3 and couldnt be bothered t read nemore,
im an experienced player now (not good just experienced) and what can i say, if u made this change, give apu's the range back. shut em up:
pe's / spys stealth and run off
tanks r quick with wep holstered can run off
ppu's neednt worry and apu's can "psi snipe" bk
then there shitty dfence wont matter o much when your in a group
just make it so current range is run cast range, nad old range u have t b stationary.
prolly stupid idea but hey, im tired
edit/
this change HAS to happen, its just a matter of keeping the now 90% population of NC (APU's) happy,
edit2/
im gonna go delete my apu now cos i hate em
your right they did they did with hybrids around buffing them
they did with lower strength mobs they did it before alot of changes were made
as nc stands now this simply wouldnt work your idea is the one that doesnt stand up under examination
and btw some of us do do it for a living we`re called QA
i believe lupus does it for nc along with others only they dont get paid.
Balance fuck ups by KK:
Spies
Uber hybrids
Nerfing uber hybrids
Nerfing uber hybrids again
PPU + APU dream team combo
Loss of level pills
All classes versus monks
Uber rifle PE's with shitty pistol PE's
And thats just off the top of my head...
Professionals? sure
Originally posted by Marx
Since you can heal and ressurrect, doesn't that negate the absolute neccesity to keep everyone alive via godmod... er...
*coughs*
s/d
I can cut a deal tho..
Fix the Soul Clusters.. (yes they ARE broken)
Remove Parashock.. (no I cant walk when I get hit by parashock tyvm)
Make Resurrection Time 5 seconds again on capped spell instead of 36 (yes it has been timed)
Make tanks actually use their strength.. ONOZ a tangent hand grenade slows me down just as much as a doom beamer !!! jesus fucking christ !!!! i have 124 strength.. I SHOULD THINK that I could have a handgrenade in my hand without it slowing me down.
... But NO.
Let me just save you all from flaming me :
[THE FLAMES THAT I WOULD RECEIVE ... IF ... I hadnt already wrote them]
Soul Clusters .. omg.. it can fly.. NERF IT !!!!
Parashock.. Parashock... HOW THE FUCK AM I GONNA OUTRUN A PE IF I CANT SHOCK HIM !!!
Resurrection.. well uhmm.. bringing dead people back to life, is very complicated.. and should take a lot of time.
Well.. a Hand Grenade is "heavy" a tank with extreme strength should be slowed down a lot by it..
[END:FLAME]
Originally posted by hinch
your right they did they did with hybrids around buffing them
they did with lower strength mobs they did it before alot of changes were made
as nc stands now this simply wouldnt work your idea is the one that doesnt stand up under examination
and btw some of us do do it for a living we`re called QA
i believe lupus does it for nc along with others only they dont get paid.
QA isnt professionally balancing.
Lupus doesnt work for KK.
Any more amazing points to make?
Richard Angelus
13-02-04, 01:50
I agree with hinch
+
with this changes (+ many other changes that will be need to rebalance the game) you don't need much skill to play a PPU anymore....
DB/Para the enemy require no skill
heal a runner need a bit more skill.....but not so much if you only have to heal
oh and in my opinion its fine that a APU is much more powerfull with a PPU than any other class + PPU
PS: hi hinch long time not seen :D
This idea is the best way to balance PPUs. Balance all the classes without PPUs, then if PPUs have only heals and buffs to give they won't be overpowering. Thus, we have PEs who aren't useless in OP wars, and APU/PPU is not 10x better than any other combo.
And saying PPUs will have nothing to do is BS. I have yet to see a single PPU who doesn't groan inwardly every time someone says "S/D!!!!"
celt your being thick again
i said he does qa for kk and doesnt get paid hense not working for them
i however am QA for a living for a major games company (no im not going to name it atm though some people already know)
and yes i do get paid for balancing it as im quality assurance i make sure all aspects of the product are upto scratch that includes balance kk as both me and you have stated doesnt have a paid qa team only people like lupus hense mistakes will be made.
self cast s/d would be possiably the biggest mistake ever and i will make a real money bet that you would see more pes than any other class if they did
EDIT: hiya richard ive started playing jupi more often again now :) so you may see me around more often but i move house on saturday so ill be without net access for a while :(
Originally posted by Scikar
This idea is the best way to balance PPUs. Balance all the classes without PPUs, then if PPUs have only heals and buffs to give they won't be overpowering. Thus, we have PEs who aren't useless in OP wars, and APU/PPU is not 10x better than any other combo.
And saying PPUs will have nothing to do is BS. I have yet to see a single PPU who doesn't groan inwardly every time someone says "S/D!!!!"
A skilled PPU knows when to buff..
so the receiver of spells, only has to concentrate on the opponent.
THAT is where the skill of a PPU lies.. knowing WHEN to buff, HOW to buff.... AND.. how to stay alive with 20 peeeps shooting at him.
Ok this thread is moving faster than i can keep up at this time of night, so before i nip off to bed and get some much needed sleep, this is my take on this thread thus far, i shall catch up with it in the morning as per normal.
So far what i see here is a moan from some people in the community about s/d being allowed on other classes by PPU's, while those people dont consider this to be a nerf on PPU's, it is, just like my idea about foriegn cast holy heals, people said it as a ppu nerf, and so was rubished.
If you take away the simple fact that a tank will not be able to get any shelters, the tank will drop very fast to a PE, as it stands right now. I don't care what aiming skills that tank has, but a stealthing/healing pistol PE can drop a tank easy enough, a tank runspeed is utter shit with a weapon out.
Take away the shelter for a APU and anyone can drop a APU in less than 10 seconds, no argument about it, who gives a shit about a monks armor resists, most other classes weapons counter this Tanks speedgun, PE's lib or PE and same with spies.
APU would become a useless class and HAB would be a waste of a good spell in the game.
Tanks: Do very good damage, and last a long time.
PE's: Do good damage, and last a long time and some have ability to stealth.
PPU: Do poor damage, last forever, can still heal/shock/db/partial buff others.
APU: Uber damage, last about a bit longer then a spy.
Pistol/Rifle spy: Very good damage, dont last long, but can stealth.
Droner: Good damage, last forever and some can stealth.
This is utter crap.
As it stands in the game right now, tanks do very good dmg with one weapon, the Dev, I dont want togo into details here about it, Tanks also have the highest con and resists setup, but a PE can match that and still do just as much dmg as a tank and gets stealth and a fast high capped heal and shelters.
PPU do poor dmg? where the fuck you get that wrong, PPU does ZERO dmg, unless you think a soulcluster would help in a outpost fight?
APU last longer than a spy unbuffed? no chance, with the latest nerfs on range a spy can kill a APU easy enough, even up close a SPY can use speed and ROG to kill one, or very close to it, again a spy using stealth is the idea there and will drop a APU after getting range, hell 2 shots froma SH will drop a APU easy without breaking a sweat.
PE/SPY do very good dmg but dont last long? god knows where you been playing your NC game, a PE can last as long as a tank, if not longer on their own, throw a PPU into it and a PE can still last longer than a tank, seems strange but its true, tonight for example a fight at fosters, myself on my ppu, not capped, against a capped ppu and a dev/cs tank "carniflex/gestra" and i had a capped pistol PE "lib/judge" using my buffs on him, he killed the tank.
So that throws out the foreign cast complaints there, both using a ppu buffs and the PE killing the tank, and no way do i consider Carniflex to be a shit tank, he is good.
Tbh what i see here is a lot of people who have PE chars moaning again, it happened before with a big post from Rade and KK listened and things got nerfed to high hell.
Now before anyone jumps on me, I don't play a APU anymore, I got a HC tank, a pistol PE, a rifle spy and a PPU on saturn, I play them to their strenghts, the PE for pking, the tank and ppu for op fights, and well the spy for hunting and some pking at range.
I also think this move would completely fuck up outpost fights, it would mean a small team would no longer be able to hold a outpost for any given time depending on who was on in your clan, many times we hear people moan about not having enough online to fight back and people calling others ninja hackers, imagine this happening to say 5 people online against 10 attackers, coming up from the UG without buffs? they would die before pressing their keys to run "or syncing to long or a fatal"
ITs just not viable to put this into the game as it stands, to many things would be screwed up from it, and i dont care about the %'s or stats on spells and shit like that, what i care about is the fun element at the end game, coz thats all we play it for, and removing buffs on people is just insane.
Of course the one class who would love this change is of course the PE's, coz although they are meant to be the "ALL ROUNDER" class and never the best in anything, they still get the fucking best shit in the game, they get stealth, they get shelters, they get great weapons to use on people, they are the hybrid class that is never nerfed or even considered a problem.
You moan when you see a PPU in the battle, why? coz you know you can't kill someone, its all about teamwork and the PE's that moan are the ones who fight duels and PP scraps, the real fights take place at the outposts, where teamwork and class balance is crucial, using a APU to anti buff someone is key, coz you know a S/D tank with a holy heal on him/her wont go down at all, so people resort to tactics or a TL 3 Heal or debuffing them and then a PE will TL 35 Shelter them just so they CAN kill them, again im drifting to my holy heal problem.
The way i would balance this game is this:
Remove para spells/weps 100%
Remove the PE's ability to use any stealth
Remove the Holy cath sanc's
Up the run speed for tanks with HC weps out.
Lower the DEV dmg to its correct TL
Correct the PA reqs on lvl 4 PA so all classes can use them.
If you really want to lower the need for PPU's in a battle, then simple make holy heal foriegn cast like S/D is now, that way people are able to die without the need to debuff them.
@PK If you think your idea about making people play their class like some sort of field operation then its crazy, you say tanks should be at the front line? well they already are, but you know what a fight is like with people running all over the place, its hard enough to tag your own people to catch a heal on them as it is, imagine no buffs on people and a APU standing at the back with limited range trying to hit a group of enemy fighting your own side, just utter madness, they would end up hitting their own side, it would remove APU's from the field of play.
My guess is a PE doesn't like it when they see a APU enter Pepper park and a PPU comes in with them, simple fact is a APU NEEDS a PPU for his defense, maybe removing the parashocks that a PPU can't do anything more than pure defense for their APU's would help no? and maybe a foriegn cast holy heal might lower the chance of survival for the APU no? then your stealthing fast moving pistol PE would be able to zip about and kill that APU, just maybe.
Again, lost post but felt i needed to say this after reading 5 pages, this idea is wrong, it should never be put into the game unless you really want to screw it over for 99% of the players.
My thoughts.
Originally posted by hinch
i said he does qa for kk and doesnt get paid hense not working for them
So ergo, he's not a professional, nor does he do it for a living, so he shouldnt be balancing, according to your earlier post?
and yes i do get paid for balancing it as im quality assurance i make sure all aspects of the product are upto scratch that includes balance kk as both me and you have stated doesnt have a paid qa team only people like lupus hense mistakes will be made.
You get paid for QA, QA involves many aspects, and not just "professional balancers" as you originally stated.
self cast s/d would be possiably the biggest mistake ever and i will make a real money bet that you would see more pes than any other class if they did
Lovely, state it, dont back it up.
Way to make a point.
Guess what, PE's probably should be the largest class in the game..
you mean making heal spells have same down-percentage as foreign cast s/d..
This could work..
I don´t see why it should be so.. but as you said.. IF people ONLY wanted to lower PPU usage in battles.. then that might be the most effective way imaginable.
Gives Anima a cookie good post you agree with me and me with you 100% :D
http://home.cwru.edu/~bxl34/photos/cookie_s.jpg
gg anima manage to save me having to write something that long
celt back to your hole please if you cant see past the end of your nose put some glasses on
Originally posted by YoDa-UK
PPU do poor dmg? where the fuck you get that wrong, PPU does ZERO dmg, unless you think a soulcluster would help in a outpost fight?
I've killed a capped tank with holy para, took me about 2-3 minutes, but was fun.
Ingmar/Hivemind used to kill people with his pistol as a ppu.
APU last longer than a spy unbuffed? no chance, with the latest nerfs on range a spy can kill a APU easy enough, even up close a SPY can use speed and ROG to kill one, or very close to it, again a spy using stealth is the idea there and will drop a APU after getting range, hell 2 shots froma SH will drop a APU easy without breaking a sweat.
Any apu who lets a spy get a second shot on him with a SH is a n00b.
If kk boosted apu damage and range again, they'd be able to take spies on 1v1 easily.
PE/SPY do very good dmg but dont last long? god knows where you been playing your NC game, a PE can last as long as a tank, if not longer on their own, throw a PPU into it and a PE can still last longer than a tank, seems strange but its true, tonight for example a fight at fosters, myself on my ppu, not capped, against a capped ppu and a dev/cs tank "carniflex/gestra" and i had a capped pistol PE "lib/judge" using my buffs on him, he killed the tank.
Where the hell did I say PE's only lasted as long as a spy, you buffoon?
Tbh what i see here is a lot of people who have PE chars moaning again, it happened before with a big post from Rade and KK listened and things got nerfed to high hell.
I dont play a PE.
Originally posted by hinch
gg anima manage to save me having to write something that long
celt back to your hole please if you cant see past the end of your nose put some glasses on
Again, cant back up your points.
How many games get balanced in patches?
ONOZ must be your uber professional QA people again?
How many times have games taken community suggestions and patched with those ideas?
Countless.
cant delete second post
Originally posted by Celt
If kk boosted apu damage and range again, they'd be able to take spies on 1v1 easily.
:lol: well they wont cant you see the problem... today spy > APU all time
*stealths away*
Originally posted by naimex
Just because the cow goes Moo, doesnt mean that it wants food.
ROFL!!!!!! hahahahahahahaha
best thing I seen for years love you now naimex <3 <3 <3
Originally posted by Celt
Again, cant back up your points.
How many games get balanced in patches?
ONOZ must be your uber professional QA people again?
How many times have games taken community suggestions and patched with those ideas?
Countless.
Ever stopped to wonder...
What if any suggestion made on forum that got the most backup got implemented into the game ??
I might just go make a thread.. SPYs should have godmode..
OMG... 51 % thinks SPYs should have GODMODE.. IMPLEMENT IMPLEMENT IMPLEMENT...
That might just be the lamest excuse/explanation... ANYTHING I´ve ever heard..
Just because the cow goes Moo, doesnt mean that it wants food.
Where the hell did I say PE's only lasted as long as a spy, you buffoon?
Well you said it yourself by putting this:
PE/SPY do very good dmg but dont last long
So you put both PE and SPY in the same catagory.
Anyway this is turning into a personal flame thread and im off to bed, should be about 30 pages long by tomorrow morning.
NN all.
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 02:07
Like I said Celt.
Don't bother, heh.
Too biased or too stupid.
Hinch as a QA I really thought you would have had the scope of mind to see how this idea is THE ONLY Truth o_O
Even if it does require suppliments to make it complete, it's the only way to fix the stupid error that never should've been there in the first place o_O
Originally posted by hinch
gg anima manage to save me having to write something that long
celt back to your hole please if you cant see past the end of your nose put some glasses on
It still amazes me that someone who claimed the old hybrids were balanced still believes his opinion has value in a balance thread.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Like I said Celt.
Don't bother, heh.
Too biased or too stupid.
Hinch as a QA I really thought you would have had the scope of mind to see how this idea is THE ONLY Truth o_O
THE ONLY TRUTH ?? o_O
*goes to look at dog*
Nope, you´re wrong.. dog looks like dog and says vuff
That has got to be a truth.
Originally posted by naimex
That might just be the lamest excuse/explanation... ANYTHING I´ve ever heard..
Just because the cow goes Moo, doesnt mean that it wants food.
Speak english?
Backing up your points mean posting evidence to back it up, jesus naimex.
im off to bed now too but as i said it does have some merits and for a long time i did think it was the only logical way to progress
however i sat with morgatha and pulse for about 6 hours and we discussed it and did some predictions and you would need some MAJOR changes in game play skill setups and caps and mob setups to compensate so to implement this idea in the current state of nc not a chance
but it would work if there were some major reworks including splitting monks into 3 sepperate classes
Originally posted by Celt
Speak english?
Backing up your points mean posting evidence to back it up, jesus naimex.
How many times have games taken community suggestions and patched with those ideas?
Countless.
^^ hence.. my post
Originally posted by YoDa-UK
Well you said it yourself by putting this:
So you put both PE and SPY in the same catagory.
Anyway this is turning into a personal flame thread and im off to bed, should be about 30 pages long by tomorrow morning.
NN all. You said that, I said "PE's: Do good damage, and last a long time and some have ability to stealth.
PPU: Do poor damage, last forever, can still heal/shock/db/partial buff others.
APU: Uber damage, last about a bit longer then a spy.
Pistol/Rifle spy: Very good damage, dont last long, but can stealth.
Droner: Good damage, last forever and some can stealth."
Goddamn, you cant even remeber what you wrote and I wrote.
No wonder its turning into a flame thread.
Originally posted by naimex
THE ONLY TRUTH ?? o_O
*goes to look at dog*
Nope, you´re wrong.. dog looks like dog and says vuff
That has got to be a truth.
HAHAHAHA stop it I cant handle it :p :lol:
*kicks the cat* mjaaaaaaau
nope its all right still the same, it IS the truth :p
Originally posted by Scikar
It still amazes me that someone who claimed the old hybrids were balanced still believes his opinion has value in a balance thread.
actually as qd will confirm i agreed hybrids did need nerfing
yeah i miss my hybrid yeah i want him back but i did say they DO need nerfing its just the kk nerf was ott
Originally posted by hinch
however i sat with morgatha and pulse for about 6 hours and we discussed it and did some predictions and you would need some MAJOR changes in game play skill setups and caps and mob setups to compensate so to implement this idea in the current state of nc not a chance
Never balance PvP on PvM o_O
btw: I'm for selfcast only
Originally posted by hinch
actually as qd will confirm i agreed hybrids did need nerfing
yeah i miss my hybrid yeah i want him back but i did say they DO need nerfing its just the kk nerf was ott
You only admitted it when you realised nobody believed you when you said you took 100 damage from a Moon Striker rocket.
Scikar, QD and Celt all agree'ing, WAKE UP PEOPLE!
Originally posted by Scikar
You only admitted it when you realised nobody believed you when you said you took 100 damage from a Moon Striker rocket.
actually a capped malediction with ammo mod, only does 30 dmg to a fully buffed ppu.. on direct hit
Malediction dmg stats :
PPU : Direct hit :
-no buffs : 110 dmg
-full buffs : 28 dmg
TANK : Area DMG
-no buffs : 110
-full (ppu) buffs : 56
Originally posted by Egeon
Never balance PvP on PvM o_O
btw: I'm for selfcast only
What if s/d was made group castable in hunting zones, but self castable only in anarchy/warzones ?
Originally posted by naimex
actually a capped malediction with ammo mod, only does 30 dmg to a fully buffed ppu.. on direct hit
Malediction dmg stats :
PPU : Direct hit :
-no buffs : 110 dmg
-full buffs : 28 dmg
TANK : Area DMG
-no buffs : 110
-full (ppu) buffs : 56
...and your point is? Do you even know what I'm talking about?
Originally posted by Celt
What if s/d was made group castable in hunting zones, but self castable only in anarchy/warzones ?
???
Oh yes.. lets make all wasteland zones hunting zones..
hmm.. a manhun in PP you say ?? well.. DEV !!! hunting zone properties for PP plz.. we´re hunting..
...and your point is? Do you even know what I'm talking about?
My point is.. that he most likely wasn´t lying when he said he only took 100 dmg from a moon striker rocket.
Originally posted by Celt
What if s/d was made group castable in hunting zones, but self castable only in anarchy/warzones ?
looks at Crycow and Gab.... hmm cant do, its a lvl zone to aight...
Originally posted by naimex
???
Oh yes.. lets make all wasteland zones hunting zones..
hmm.. a manhun in PP you say ?? well.. DEV !!! hunting zone properties for PP plz.. we´re hunting..
You know, the only hunting zones are cellars and caves.
Get a clue please.
Originally posted by t0tt3
looks at Crycow and Gab.... hmm cant do, its a lvl zone to aight...
Yes, and both are easy to solo as a spy, apu, tank or PE without having a ppu s/d.
Christ, you have ops, shops and genreps to hide in, what bloody more do you want?
Originally posted by Celt
You know, the only hunting zones are cellars and caves.
Get a clue please.
no, YOU get a clue..
lets try it just for 1 week..
1 week plz.. S/D selfcast only..
You´ll see more whining, nerfing threads bitching.. here on forum..
Why.. CUZ it´s such a bad idea.. I´ve seen people typing.
/set kill_self 1
trying to get more health being a better idea..
(Hmm, I´m psychic, your next post will be :: DAM DAM DAAAAAM :: What´s you´re point?)
"Hunting Zones" ::
Dictionairy :
A hunting zone is a place where hunting is permitted
Hmm.. that would basically mean everywhere..
ok lets try it on neocron ::
"Hunting Zone" ::
A place to level up.
I´m leveling up in caves, gaia, mc5, wherever....
They should therefore be "hunting zones"
Yes, and both are easy to solo as a spy, apu, tank or PE without having a ppu s/d.
Christ, you have ops, shops and genreps to hide in, what bloody more do you want?
I would like to see you drop this outrageous idea.
Shadow Dancer
13-02-04, 02:25
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
Sorry but I h8 this idea, My tank would go down faster than britney spears on Colin Farel without a Holy Shelter,
HAHHAHAAHAH
lol
A ppu shouldn't take 130 from a cs unbuffed. They shoudl take alot less. o_O
Originally posted by Celt
I used to be able to kill a capped tank with my capped apu, in like 6-10 HL's, about 10-20 seconds or so if he wasnt firing on me.
That's the unnerfed HL though.
If KK doesn't unnerf it............o_O
Fire apoc is still good though i guess. bleh
Originally posted by t0tt3
PE would own with their own buffs "not skill less dev tanks" but any other thing with own buffs and holy heal :eek:
omg you mean pes could own in op wars then?
ONOZ
As it is now, op wars are the domain of monks and tanks IMO. Who's even afraid of a PE in an op war?
lol
Don't forget apu can still achieve kick ass health, and better resists with PPU buffs.
And holy heal still ownz.
Originally posted by t0tt3
all apus would reroll or lom to ppu...
just stab them in thier back, think again.
Not me.
Originally posted by t0tt3
Apu solo 1on1 loose 95% now against PE/Tank
Nerfed range and fucked up HL :D and bad shit CON
95%? Speak for yourself. I still kick pe and tank ass. o_O
HL atm needs either a reticle to determine damage or a minor damage boost.
Ok I was for this idea alot, and I didn't consider it a nerf to apus. But now with HL nerf, i'm not so sure. SO i'm just going to assume, that the HL is reasonably unnerfed, if this idea goes through. So i'll make all my points, with that assumption in mind.
Originally posted by t0tt3
Hmm a APU unbuffed goes down as fast as a spie and they cant stealth.....
Spy = long range + stealth "good defence"
APU = pistol range + ? nothing :p "crap defence"
So now the APU would be the far most dead body bag in the game..
NOONE would even play it. Why use HAB? to debuff a ppu???? lol why even bother just a healer I can kill a tank in 3 s with a team and its all over just the ppu left running around....
He cant rezz "to long" he would get pwnd by 7 Dev tanks
Face it, the idea sucks...
When we had 240 m range I would say why not but now when we are mid/low range combat attackers with poor ass con I cant say ok... Call me a noob but it wont happend I need to kill a tank in 4 - 6 shots then and noone would agree with that..
4 hits to kill a tank? That's a bit outrageous. You don't need that, espcially if you can take up to 5 bursts as an apu, and Hl is close to 2x the rof of CS.
You forgot, self cast sd means you can do your nice super uber damage to tanks as well. So they'll have to be careful, and they can't just rush in. And your barrels would actually do good damage.
:eek:
Originally posted by YoDa-UK
Real players with skill are few and far between these days, I say no to this idea, it is shit, I want op fights to last at least 30 mins.
That can easily be arranged without making PPUs the source of a long fight.
You want fights to last long, and then force it to be in the hands of a PPU?
eewww. I dunno about that. Sounds like you are actually ok with how important PPus are now.
IF this indeed makes op fights too short(which i don't think it does) then you can increase health on all players or decrease pvp damage all around, so no one gets nerfed, and fights last longer.
That's if indeed op fights will be too short, which i don't thikn they will be.
Originally posted by hinch
if you consider pvm etc then its well tbh bullshit
doy bots/ apparition/ chaoscaves/ grim chasers/ gaya mines / MC5
would all become impossiable for people like the spy and low lvl tanks and pes
I disagree. PvM is 2000000000000000000x easier to balance then pvp. You say doy bots, apparation, grim chasers, would be hard for low level pes and tanks? Uhhh so? Are they supposed to be easy for low level chars?
Originally posted by hinch
doy bots/ apparition/ chaoscaves/ grim chasers/ gaya mines / MC5
spys would be fucked
Spies would be fucked? i doubt it. First of all, they can outrange many mobs. Secondly, they can spec themselves specifically for a certain type of mob, and with a ppu they can get high health and better resists.
nly a few mobs would need to be toned down. Namely doy bots, and probably mc5. That's pretty much it.
If some mobs are deemed to powerful even with a PPU, KK can simply tone it down. Not that hard.
Originally posted by hinch
however a pe vs a pe duel would last forever as 2 good pes can just out heal each others damage would also mean the last man standing at opwars would most likely be a pe and you would get nothing but pe and ppu turning up to op wars
If this isn't the very definition of exaggeration, i don't know what is.
There's NO REASON to assume only pes and ppus would turn up. Apus would still do heavy damage, tank aoe would be deadlier than ever without shelter.
I know moonstriker and all that shit fucks up my apu big time without shields. So Iwould have to be extra careful.
If op wars last 20 seconds, it's because both sides zerg rushed.
Originally posted by t0tt3
If they take away the SD shite to others then I dont need to HAB because ppus today are really GOOOOOD if they see HAB booom S/D up in notime, really they do :(
So first I aim at apus then tanks then last comes PPU
peace O_o
O_o
dude hab is awesome for killing ppus. Hell I killed some of the best ppus with a store bought anti shelter.
Ask Psycho Killa. :p :p :p
Originally posted by YoDa-UK
If you take away the simple fact that a tank will not be able to get any shelters, the tank will drop very fast to a PE, as it stands right now. I don't care what aiming skills that tank has, but a stealthing/healing pistol PE can drop a tank easy enough, a tank runspeed is utter shit with a weapon out.
Take away the shelter for a APU and anyone can drop a APU in less than 10 seconds, no argument about it, who gives a shit about a monks armor resists, most other classes weapons counter this Tanks speedgun, PE's lib or PE and same with spies.
APU would become a useless class and HAB would be a waste of a good spell in the game.
I've never seen a tank drop "very fast" to a pe unless the tank sux. You mentioned stealthing pe? O_o Sure if the pe wants to stealth away fine, but a ppu can just cast a heal on the tank IF he has low hp. The stealth/healing thing is only really applicable in 1v1 situations. And even then, I agree that pe stealth is unbalanced atm. A tank runspeed being utter shit is so not true. Maybe on YOUR screen. But i've fought a bajillion tanks. ANd ALOT of them have great runspeed.
Ok now about apu. Take away shelter, and(assuming HL is unnerfed) they can drop anyone as fast as they can be dropped. They can fuck people's legs up easy if the person doesn't have shelter. They can attack from 140m without any worry about doing less damage or hitting only 1 bullet/blob/whatever.
As for hab. Me? I use hab and fuck up ppus big time in op wars. I also use hab on pes. You ever seen how fast a PE runs when unbuffed? It's very funny. They drop very fast when unbuffed. And hab is fast.
Originally posted by YoDa-UK
As it stands in the game right now, tanks do very good dmg with one weapon, the Dev, I dont want togo into details here about it, Tanks also have the highest con and resists setup, but a PE can match that and still do just as much dmg as a tank and gets stealth and a fast high capped heal and shelters.
Pes can do just as much dmg as a tank?
O_o
How?
Originally posted by YoDa-UK
APU last longer than a spy unbuffed? no chance, with the latest nerfs on range a spy can kill a APU easy enough, even up close a SPY can use speed and ROG to kill one, or very close to it, again a spy using stealth is the idea there and will drop a APU after getting range, hell 2 shots froma SH will drop a APU easy without breaking a sweat.
Um, an apu vs a spy. Assuming their both skilled and in close range, the apu should win literally 100% of the time. IMO at least. Now if the spy is at a huge range, then yea the apu would be toast. But the farther the spy is away form the apu, the harder it is to hit the apu if he's moving fast and furiously. Especially in a crowd.
Originally posted by YoDa-UK
PE/SPY do very good dmg but dont last long? god knows where you been playing your NC game, a PE can last as long as a tank, if not longer on their own, throw a PPU into it and a PE can still last longer than a tank, seems strange but its true, tonight for example a fight at fosters, myself on my ppu, not capped, against a capped ppu and a dev/cs tank "carniflex/gestra" and i had a capped pistol PE "lib/judge" using my buffs on him, he killed the tank.
So that throws out the foreign cast complaints there, both using a ppu buffs and the PE killing the tank, and no way do i consider Carniflex to be a shit tank, he is good.
O_o
Maybe carniflex fucked up? Your ONE example doesn't mean much. No offense, honestly. ALl good players fuck up every now and then.
Originally posted by YoDa-UK
imagine this happening to say 5 people online against 10 attackers, coming up from the UG without buffs? they would die before pressing their keys to run "or syncing to long or a fatal"
O_o
Ok, IMO this is the first valid point you've made. Maybe the clan can come from somewhere else?
Originally posted by YoDa-UK
You moan when you see a PPU in the battle, why? coz you know you can't kill someone, its all about teamwork.
Actually their moaning because of the importance of a PPU. I know that's why I moan. They are wayyyyyyy too important, and have too much of a goddan influence on fights. You CANNOT deny that. You know why? BEcause you're saying this one change would fuck up the game. And this change has to do with the PPU. Therefore, you are acknowledging their tremendous importance in this game.
And if you think that's ok, that's fine. But try to understand our point.
Originally posted by YoDa-UK
the real fights take place at the outposts, where teamwork and class balance is crucial, using a APU to anti buff someone is key,.
Real fights? So only outposts battles are real fights? Give me a damn break. Real fight is any fight.
There is no "Teamwork" IMO. It's "monkwork". Who's the only one who can antibuff? Apus. Who's the only one who can give super buffs? Ppu.
There, wow teamwork. *snort*
Of course, teamwork would suddenly include alot more people if this suggestion was put in. Droners and sniper would be alot more deadly. Alot more. Tank aoe would also be alot more deadly.
Originally posted by YoDa-UK
If you really want to lower the need for PPU's in a battle, then simple make holy heal foriegn cast like S/D is now, that way people are able to die without the need to debuff them.
That only changes the effectiveness of the heal. Doesn't do much to lower their importance, IMO. When a class + ppu can take out 5-6 people. You know something is wrong.
Originally posted by YoDa-UK
@PK If you think your idea about making people play their class like some sort of field operation then its crazy, you say tanks should be at the front line? well they already are, but you know what a fight is like with people running all over the place, its hard enough to tag your own people to catch a heal on them as it is, imagine no buffs on people and a APU standing at the back with limited range trying to hit a group of enemy fighting your own side, just utter madness, they would end up hitting their own side, it would remove APU's from the field of play.
Um no it wouldn't. Assuming HL was unnerfed, apus would still be deadly as hell. See, they can hit a tank like 20 times and the tank won't die, if the tank has a shelter on him. But if they stay at a range, and hit opponents without shelter they'll do heavy damage.
I seriously don't think this would remove apus from the field of play.
Originally posted by Celt
Yes, and both are easy to solo as a spy, apu, tank or PE without having a ppu s/d.
Christ, you have ops, shops and genreps to hide in, what bloody more do you want?
nice DP :P
then again I dont hunt in Crycow try to heal with medikits... doh! 1 hour later.......
Gab is the only way to go solo or ppu in caves. J-X is good to but Cranh got that and they aint friendly to TG :p Good hills to hide behind and shit but you cant have it all can you :D
[EDIT]
LOL shad I wanna see you hitting 16 HLs on a tank and win 1on1 who are you trying to brag to? Its utter shite atm before the secret HL nerf and before the range nerf it was pretty fun to duel even tanks and you could do 50/50 win with the dmg and speed. Atm naaaaa I use my HAB as much as I can, cant complain on that one best spell I got atm...
Originally posted by naimex
no, YOU get a clue..
lets try it just for 1 week..
1 week plz.. S/D selfcast only..
You´ll see more whining, nerfing threads bitching.. here on forum..
Why.. CUZ it´s such a bad idea.. I´ve seen people typing.
/set kill_self 1
trying to get more health being a better idea..
(Hmm, I´m psychic, your next post will be :: DAM DAM DAAAAAM :: What´s you´re point?)
"Hunting Zones" ::
Dictionairy :
Hmm.. that would basically mean everywhere..
ok lets try it on neocron ::
"Hunting Zone" ::
A place to level up.
I´m leveling up in caves, gaia, mc5, wherever....
They should therefore be "hunting zones"
Oh my jesus...
There are 4 ZONE types in neocron, safe zone, hunting zone, anarcy zone, warzone.
Each have different properties, including SL loss and what you DROP!
You lose more SL in a hunting zone then you do in an anarcy zone!
Originally posted by naimex
My point is.. that he most likely wasn´t lying when he said he only took 100 dmg from a moon striker rocket.
Clearly the answer is no, you don't know what I'm talking about. Do a search on old posts hinch made when he played as a hybrid before they were nerfed. Read through and notice how he claims to take a full 100 damage from a Moon Striker rocket, which was in fact complete BS, not to mention presuming that the hybrid stands still in combat with the tank.
And why are you arguing with Celt over minor points? He suggest that potentially group buffs could still be used, you think it's a bad idea, why not suggest something better? All I've seen so far is weak arguments like "I've thought about it and I don't think it will work," "PPUs will have nothing to do," "PvM will be too hard," "PEs will be the best chars to use," "APUs will be useless." Not one of these arguments is backed up with proof, and not one of them is anywhere near realistic.
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 02:34
Originally posted by hinch
im off to bed now too but as i said it does have some merits and for a long time i did think it was the only logical way to progress
however i sat with morgatha and pulse for about 6 hours and we discussed it and did some predictions and you would need some MAJOR changes in game play skill setups and caps and mob setups to compensate so to implement this idea in the current state of nc not a chance
but it would work if there were some major reworks including splitting monks into 3 sepperate classes Should really have included me in that debate.
Monks wouldn't need to be split into three classes (EPU?) again for this to work..
I do respect your oppinion, as QA you do typically think things through, if you had depth of conversation of two hours I suspect something went wrong somewhere...
I'd rather have the balance council idea completed and put through so a team of us who can maturely debate balance (without going off topic on a whim to try to prove a point no names mentioned), and come to acceptable conclusions.
For the most part I don't believe a large chunk of this community has any validity in terms of balance comments or suggestions, but I can't, rightly, turn around and tell them to shutup.
I was as ignorant/stupid to the way this game worked a while ago, and I was biased, for a long time too.
Two shackles that were hard to break, and two shackles I know a lot of people wont break.
Like you, hinch, I have played every class/subclass.
I realise that some /tweaks/ on a /minor/ scale would be required after this large a fundamental change was made.
The only exception to that, being, the thing that would require a major tweak, would be PvM.
There is a reason I have more or less only addressed your points, and will probably continue only, to address your points, in a major/respectful way, in this thread.
I suspect you could find the reason why, or someone else with a reasoned thought process, but meh.
I just pray you get to actually SEE this post before it gets burried under a pile of spam/flame/trash.
Edit;
Naimex.
If you gave me, and a few people I would select, from the community, one week.
One, Single week.
Along with the FULL attention of the Devs.
I would give you a balanced game.
QD when did you talk about this? after all APU nerfs??
Just curious..... because if you did it BEFORE the nerfs then I would be on your side today with dmg/range/psi nerf I will make a big fat thumb down
Originally posted by Celt
He did it before.
Well then he cant talk about it can he? BIG nerfs last patches and then I mean B.I.G
Originally posted by t0tt3
QD when did you talk about this? after all APU nerfs??
Just curious..... because if you did it BEFORE the nerfs then I would be on your side today with dmg/range/psi nerf I will make a big fat thumn down
He did it before.
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 02:38
Originally posted by t0tt3
QD when did you talk about this? after all APU nerfs??
Just curious..... because if you did it BEFORE the nerfs then I would be on your side today with dmg/range/psi nerf I will make a big fat thumn down
Yes, this was /designed/ for a world where APU truly was the dominant damage dealer.
As I just said to Hinch, this idea would need to be supplimented with a few, other tweaks, such as APU damage, and it would allllll be fixed....
Honestly, though, it just needs a little scope of thought to see how it balances..
Originally posted by Celt
You lose more SL in a hunting zone then you do in an anarcy zone!
Ok..
I don´t lose SL killing enemy faction in anarchy zone..
but I do lost 50 SL killing an enemy faction runner that attacks me first and is a higher rank than me in a hunting zone..
Yes of course that makes sense.. (only in your mind)
What I´m getting at is, how on earth are you going to divide WHAT is hunting zone and what is whatever other zone ?
people hunt there, so it must be a hunting zone..
hmm, people also kill there.. must be warzone
ohh I know.. it´s post apocalyptic, people are frying eachother no matter what..
EVERYTHING should be warzone..
SL should be removed..
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
back on topic..
S/D = selfcast ::
PPU : Heal, DB, para... thats about it....
APU : sorry, buffs, resists ? I´m not following you.. what are those ? I can´t get that.
PE : Hmm.. so he is selfbuffed aye ? then why don´t i just use this rifle that does the same dmg to a tank as a cs does and blast his ass off, i can run, i can stealth and I can god damn come back fully healed before the tank even gets 20 hit points back.
SPY :: Hmm, scope, scope.. POW, haha his leg is broken he cant run.. hmm, where to shoot him now.. oh screw it.. "HEADSHOT" oh no.. 190 dmg! POW POW! hmm.. better call medicare.. he stopped moving.
TANK : LOM LOM LOM LOM LOM LOM LOM.. ahh resists, finally.. my con is now.. 10 o_O damn.. well off to kill roaches..
*months go by* YES finally con 90.. off to kill someone.. aww damn.. 2 PEs/APUs/SPies.. i dont have the range.. to hit the spies, I dont have the speed to chase the PEs.. I don´t have the heal to outheal the APU.
*2 weeks later*
neocron forum :
Why´s everyone leaving ?
-Reply : Oh look at this thread I found..
http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90717
Aww man, why did they do such a stupid thing.
-------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Scikar
Clearly the answer is no, you don't know what I'm talking about. Do a search on old posts hinch made when he played as a hybrid before they were nerfed. Read through and notice how he claims to take a full 100 damage from a Moon Striker rocket, which was in fact complete BS, not to mention presuming that the hybrid stands still in combat with the tank.
And why are you arguing with Celt over minor points? He suggest that potentially group buffs could still be used, you think it's a bad idea, why not suggest something better? All I've seen so far is weak arguments like "I've thought about it and I don't think it will work," "PPUs will have nothing to do," "PvM will be too hard," "PEs will be the best chars to use," "APUs will be useless." Not one of these arguments is backed up with proof, and not one of them is anywhere near realistic.
You want a better idea..
LEAVE IT THE WAY IT IS !!!
It is more balanced than EVER before right now.. don´t ruin it with this.
Every Class has the tools to kill any other class..
YES EVERY !
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Yes, this was /designed/ for a world where APU truly was the dominant damage dealer.
As I just said to Hinch, this idea would need to be supplimented with a few, other tweaks, such as APU damage, and it would allllll be fixed....
Honestly, though, it just needs a little scope of thought to see how it balances..
How many times in this thread have I said "and apu re-boosted rng + dmg" ? :D
Thing is when you read the pages you all say..
Hey take away S/D
APU are uber dmg dealers... hell no not after these changes and after page 10 or so you say well pre patch.... duh no wonder... :rolleyes:
Well the others are balanced to some point to each other the only class that has 0 own defence are APU:s and it would hit them the most thats why....
word O_o
Originally posted by naimex
[B]Ok..
I don´t lose SL killing enemy faction in anarchy zone..
but I do lost 50 SL killing an enemy faction runner that attacks me first and is a higher rank than me in a hunting zone..
Yes of course that makes sense.. (only in your mind)
What I´m getting at is, how on earth are you going to divide WHAT is hunting zone and what is whatever other zone ?
ITS ALREADY DECIDED BY KK, LOOK AT THE BOTTOM OF YOUR DAMN SCREEN WHEN YOU ENTER A ZONE!
You clearly arent grasping a lot of this, and im not insulting you because of it, since you are danish?
But stay out of the bloody thread if you cant understand a lot of english.
Is the S/D removal only the single cast ones, not group buffs?
In that case, this is a good idea.
If not well blah.
Originally posted by Celt
ITS ALREADY DECIDED BY KK, LOOK AT THE BOTTOM OF YOUR DAMN SCREEN WHEN YOU ENTER A ZONE!
Of course.. how foolish of me..
Foreign cast Shelter / Deflector is just THE thing to save me when I need it in Aggie Cellars...
NO it´s not.
All i ever needed whilst leveling in the so called hunting zones, all i needed was HEAL. and even with you´re idea i can still get that..
So why don´t we just remove shelter deflector ? why don´t we just remove shelter, everyone should be tanks..
NO, it would get so fucking boring you would rather sit on a duck and take a shite on it. because that is soooo funny.. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Celt
ITS ALREADY DECIDED BY KK, LOOK AT THE BOTTOM OF YOUR DAMN SCREEN WHEN YOU ENTER A ZONE!
You clearly arent grasping a lot of this, and im not insulting you because of it, since you are danish?
But stay out of the bloody thread if you cant understand a lot of english.
THATS FUCKING RACISM BITCH !!
Keep that out of this debate my nationality nor my english capabilities have absolutely NO advantage / disadvantages IN this conversation.. so IF you would be so kind as to keep whatever you wanna throw at me TO my replies, and OFF my person.
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 02:49
Originally posted by Celt
How many times in this thread have I said "and apu re-boosted rng + dmg" ? :D Yea I know :/
Small FYI for everyone, Celt and I are normally at eachothers throats in threads/PMs/ingame.
This is probably the first time since .... june?
We've not been arguing :p
Why not just lower the on shelter thing even more then? Then just make it selfe cast only is just [h***fo**c of tha rule] thingy..
Or take away monks and PE:s no more psi for you suckers and all reroll to SPY/Tank
weeee cool fights!
Originally posted by naimex
Of course.. how foolish of me..
Foreign cast Shelter / Deflector is just THE thing to save me when I need it in Aggie Cellars...
NO it´s not.
All i ever needed whilst leveling in the so called hunting zones, all i needed was HEAL. and even with you´re idea i can still get that..
Get out of this damn thread you ****** ****.
I suppose you also solo: Chaos Caves, the apparition, bloodviper king, batqueen, swamp mage?
So why don´t we just remove shelter deflector ? why don´t we just remove shelter, everyone should be tanks..
NO, it would get so fucking boring you would rather sit on a duck and take a shite on it. because that is soooo funny.. :rolleyes:
And you ignore every SHRED of evidence that shows with a few tweaks, every class would be different, but RELATIVELY equal.
Originally posted by Celt
Get out of this damn thread you stupid fool.
I suppose you also solo: Chaos Caves, the apparition, bloodviper king, batqueen, swamp mage?
And you ignore every SHRED of evidence that shows with a few tweaks, every class would be different, but RELATIVELY equal.
NO I don´t solo those
And IMHO classes are equal as it is.
Originally posted by naimex
NO I don´t solo those
They are also hunting zones, so you just contradicted everything you've said in the last 3 pages.
See my above post on where to **** off to.
Originally posted by t0tt3
Thing is when you read the pages you all say..
Hey take away S/D
APU are uber dmg dealers... hell no not after these changes and after page 10 or so you say well pre patch.... duh no wonder... :rolleyes:
Well the others are balanced to some point to each other the only class that has 0 own defence are APU:s and it would hit them the most thats why....
word O_o
HELLO T0TT3, LET ME INFORM YOU OF THAT THE DAMAGE NERF OF HOLY LIGHTNING AND FEW OTHER APU SPELLS ARRISED FROM BUGS AND ACCIDENTIAL TWINKLINGS FROM KK, THEY WILL FIX THE DAMAGE NEXT PATCH WHAT (http://neocron2.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89794)
Originally posted by Thanatos
HL was indeed reduced in damage. As far as I know this was unintentional and will be rectified.
Originally posted by naimex
And IMHO classes are equal as it is.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAA THE CLASSES ARE AS EQUAL YOU SAY? They are as equal as 2 different species of incects.
Originally posted by Celt
They are also hunting zones, so you just contradicted everything you've said in the last 3 pages.
See my above post on where to **** off to.
I did ??? :confused:
I´m pretty sure I´ve been saying that S/D should remain the as it was.
Originally posted by naimex
I did ??? :confused:
I´m pretty sure I´ve been saying that S/D should remain the as it was.
No, the last 3 pages have been you waffling on how to decide what were hunting zones, and how S/D would be useless in hunting zones.
Scikar was right on his post about you.
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 02:59
Remind me never to piss you off Duder :p :p
@Duder
WELL HELLO!!! HOW LONG CAN WE WAIT FOR A REAL PATCH THEN REZZ ME WHEN I DIE SO I CAN WATCH THE COMEBACK OF THE DMG ON THE HL
kthxbye
Originally posted by Celt
No, the last 3 pages have been you waffling on how to decide what were hunting zones, and how S/D would be useless in hunting zones.
Scikar was right on his post about you.
Will you please stop the personal attacks here ?
as if your racism towards my nationality wasn´t enough.
whatever you read from my posts my point remains the same..
S/D Selfcast only -| Foreign Castable in Hunting Zones..
Will bring the current almost flawless balance into unbalance.
Originally posted by Duder
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAA THE CLASSES ARE AS EQUAL YOU SAY? They are as equal as 2 different species of incects.
Even the most different insects have things in common.
guess what... it´s balance.
yah neocron would be so fun with battles lasting 30 seconds. i cant fucking wait. what a stupid idea.
Originally posted by naimex
Will you please stop the personal attacks here ?
as if your racism towards my nationality wasn´t enough.
So recognising you were Danish, so your main language probably wasnt english is being racist?
Just proving again your apparent lack of grasp of english.
whatever you read from my posts my point remains the same..
S/D Selfcast only -| Foreign Castable in Hunting Zones..
Will bring the current almost flawless balance into unbalance. [/B]
No, your points on how to decide what are hunting zones, forein casting in hunting zones being useless, and a lot of other extraneous silly points are completely wrong.
This thread gives me headaches, and i think the problem with people not grasping the idea is because few have difficulties reading the small text.
OH I HAVE NO IDEA, WHY DONT YOU ASK THANATOS AND HIS MERRY CREW ABOUT A HOT HOT APU DAMAGE FIX? NOTHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN IF YOU DONT ASK OR DEMAND FOR IT, AND I LIKE THE NERFED APU DAMAGE CHEERIO OL CHAP!
Shadow Dancer
13-02-04, 03:05
Duder my eyes.......
Btw t0t3, fire apoc kills tanks in wayyyy less than 16 hls. ;)
Originally posted by Celt
So recognising you were Danish, so your main language probably wasnt english is being racist?
Just proving again your apparent lack of grasp of english.
No, your points on how to decide what are hunting zones, forein casting in hunting zones being useless, and a lot of other extraneous silly points are completely wrong.
wanna take a test ?
I started speaking english as a 6 year old..
I got top marks in english the first year i ever had it in school at age 10.
Guess what.. I had english on "A" level.
I have absolutely no problems understanding english tyvm.
But I do have my way of writing things, and I do believe my point is able to be seen in the way I write, but what you MIGHT be getting at, is that it isn´t clear to you, and I might not be able to explain it in other ways.
nevertheless remains my point STILL the same. that S/D and ALL classes are balanced the way they are, and an implementation of this idea, is IMHO a really really really bad move which will have a really really really bad affection on the game.
Originally posted by Celt
No, your points on how to decide what are hunting zones, forein casting in hunting zones being useless, and a lot of other extraneous silly points are completely wrong.
A high lvl PE and a high lvl tank fighting against eachother both have a 50/50 % chance of winning the fight on own buffs.
That´s how you see it balanced.
this is if none of them can run off.
The PE has the option to run off, even stealth off.. and come back really shortly after with full health, a tank does not have that option, and must therefore rely on the S/D to keep more of his health for that second blow that is coming when the PE returns.
I´ve seen a PE run into a group of 17 people, kill 2 people and get out again, without serious injury, i´ve seen him come back again after mere seconds, fully healed, fully buffed..
Yet this is because of skills with the class..
A tank on own buffs can pull down a hybrid, even when the hybrid is using freeze and running off to heal.. I´ve seen it, I´ve done it.
but each time.. there´s that small amount of health left on either class.. and this health for the tank.. this is crucial.. for the spy this is crucial, for the apu this is a cry to run away.. but if they had had ppu buffs. then they would have been prepared for the second return of those that can just run off midfight and come back within seconds to finish off with full health.
I hope this memory of wars might enligthen my point to you.
@Duder
SO YOU DONT THINK THEY SE THIS OOH WELL THEN I HAFTO HAVE EVEN LARGER SIZE!!!!!! ONOZ
Or spice with diffrent color :eek: <--- nasty nasty PP feeling
Just found it O_o
http://www.outlawx.de/count.php <--- fucking freaking ages like 19 weeks wooot :eek:
Originally posted by naimex
wanna take a test ?
I started speaking english as a 6 year old..
I got top marks in english the first year i ever had it in school at age 10.
Guess what.. I had english on "A" level.
I have absolutely no problems understanding english tyvm.
So that's why you took it as being racist? And it took 3 posts for you to realise KK already had hunting zones in the game?
Either you have crap teachers and a crap school system, or you are the one with a problem.
This thread is full of posts of yours, quoting others and BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS that you are mis-interpreting and understanding them
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Duder my eyes.......
Btw t0tt3, fire apoc kills tanks in wayyyy less than 16 hls. ;)
Make FA direct dmg then I would have a really good toy to play with :D
Originally posted by Celt
So that's why you took it as being racist? And it took 3 posts for you to realise KK already had hunting zones in the game?
Either you have crap teachers and a crap school system, or you are the one with a problem.
This thread is full of posts of yours, quoting others and BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS that you are mis-interpreting and understanding them
maybe you are no better at making people understand your opinions than I am ?
Let´s do it the other way around.
Tell me again, concrete..
What would a class gain by this without bringing unbalance to wars ?
only one thing to say to this thread
stfu
Originally posted by naimex
A high lvl PE and a high lvl tank fighting against eachother both have a 50/50 % chance of winning the fight on own buffs.
That´s how you see it balanced.
this is if none of them can run off.
The PE has the option to run off, even stealth off.. and come back really shortly after with full health, a tank does not have that option, and must therefore rely on the S/D to keep more of his health for that second blow that is coming when the PE returns.
So a tank cant run off and heal/medkit too?
Wow didnt know they were glued to the ground...
I´ve seen a PE run into a group of 17 people, kill 2 people and get out again, without serious injury, i´ve seen him come back again after mere seconds, fully healed, fully buffed..
Shitty 17 people if they cant hurt a PE in the time the PE has to kill a person..
A tank on own buffs can pull down a hybrid, even when the hybrid is using freeze and running off to heal.. I´ve seen it, I´ve done it.
Again, presuming A)there's no PE with the tank, B)the tank doesnt move an INCH
but each time.. there´s that small amount of health left on either class.. and this health for the tank.. this is crucial.. for the spy this is crucial, for the apu this is a cry to run away.. but if they had had ppu buffs. then they would have been prepared for the second return of those that can just run off midfight and come back within seconds to finish off with full health.
The PE has to get far enough away that he can heal without being spotted.
Not seconds.
I hope this memory of wars might enligthen my point to you.Not even in the slightest.
Originally posted by naimex
maybe you are no better at making people understand your opinions than I am ?
Not a single person had a problem but you.
How is there another way to put "There are 4 types of zones in the game..."?
You didnt understand that, nor the post previous.
yeah ppus are overpowered :)
melee tank + ppu = overpowered omg must nerf
http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90711
Celt you say 3 pages....
this is on the 13th and still 57.35% doesnt understand wtf u need to take away the SD from all attackers...
Word
Scandinavia > you
Originally posted by t0tt3
Celt you say 3 pages....
this is on the 13th and still 56% doesnt understand wtf u need to take away the SD from all attackers...
Word
Scandinavia > you
And if you understood, we were talking about hunting zones, not S/D.
Another person who shouldnt be on this forum.
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 03:26
Originally posted by t0tt3
Celt you say 3 pages....
this is on the 13th and still 57.35% doesnt understand wtf u need to take away the SD from all attackers...
Word
Scandinavia > you Can't change a vote once it's been cast.
When based on natural 1on1 situations...
The Maximum operational capacity of the PE (including drugs) is balanced with the Maximum operational capacity of the Tank.
In turn, the Maximum operational capacity of the Rifle Spy, is balanced with the Maximum operational capacity of the PE, or the Tank. (It's just that the tank doesn't REALLY need drugs to get close to this theoretical maximum).
The APU is mostly balanced with these classes at their operational maximum as well, it's Energy damage is very slightly too high, and it's Fire and Poison damage is too low, in ranged situations the APUs slight "Overpowered nature" is also visible.
Ignoring Parashock and Damage Boost for the time being, as soon as you introduce the PPU this happens;
APUs become the most powerful of all the classes(100%).
Tanks become the second most powerful of all the classes(90%).
Spies become the third most powerful of all the classes(80%).
PEs become the weakest(75%).
Please note APU and PPU are seperate classes for the purpose of this explanation, the reasoning for the above statements follows thusly;
PEs, who were previously balanced with the other classes, loses their defencive "advantage" from PSI, since Everyone has the same level of PSI defence, Natural CON, Armor defence, and Character Offence become the most important things available to the character itself.
APUs, who are naturally the weakest defencive character at their operational maximum (spies, stfu, this is true, if you think otherwise you NEED To go look at your character again), are naturally the strongest character in the game.
Their defence has just been boosted by 45% of whatever the remaining defence malus was between them and the 76% mark of all resists, Including Holy Heal they become very difficult to kill, and therefore due to their massive explosive damage become by far the most effective fighter to couple with a PPU.
Tanks, who are naturally(armor/con) the highest defencive character with good offence gain the defencive ground they would otherwise have lost on the PE / Spy due to their PSI.
This means that, if they could take advantage of their TSG/CS with holy heal running on them, they would be even more difficult to kill than an APU and would be able to naturally provide a LOT of damage output, though not quite as powerful as the APU.
Spies, who are naturally(traditionally) a defencively weak class that can actually drug for Shelter and use Deflector proficiently, lose the small PSI bonus they gained (drugging for shelter), on the tank, because of buffs, however still have a decently respectable arsenal of weaponry to use at high level (Disruptor, RoG, PE, RoLH, FL(...this is dependant on situation), and a few other of the good DEX Weapons), keeping them above the PE.
PEs, who are naturally average at defence(again CON/Armor), now totally cap out their resists in terms of the 76% rule, however, are still far exceeded by Tanks, and almost equalled by APUs(the main difference there being HLT), however, only have semi-respectable RoLH damage, Liberator, Pain Easer, Judge or RoG. ~ While RoG/RoLH/Liberator are respectable, Lib's aiming is bugged, RoG doesn't compete with CS when the defence of he characters is so close to equal, and RoLH is still too high a weapon to get the best stats on unless you're willing to make fairly drastic defencive cuts.
This means, that quite naturally, before Damage Boost or Parashock, or anything else is brought into the equation, PPUs make APUs the dominant class in the op fight.
The solution, is actually quite simple so long as you don't mind the fact that PPUs will ALWAYS be a benefit to the team no matter what...
25% self-heal malus for holy heal, 50% Malus on others.
Removal of Parashock.
Removal of Holy Cath Sanctum.
Boosting of Holy Cath (more usable).
Boosting of HAB (more usable).
Overridable buffs.
The loss of ability to rezz a corpse after 2-3minutes, unless the corpse is in a hunting zone.
PPU PA now gives no defence bonus at all, however gives better PPU bonuses.
Holy Deflector is weakened 25% on the PPU (n.b not accumalitive with the 50% malus on others).
edit;
I forgot, Hybrid Penalisation shouldn't be 30%, however 20-25% is a better option.
Sigh.
Hinch - Go read my post address to you burried some pages back :p
Originally posted by t0tt3
Celt you say 3 pages....
this is on the 13th and still 57.35% doesnt understand wtf u need to take away the SD from all attackers...
Word
Scandinavia > you
Or maybe 57.35% took even less time than Ryuben to think about it. :rolleyes:
Lifewaster
13-02-04, 03:26
I like this , it would balance out op wars a lot I think.
Atm it seems to be, "get shields, run in and HL or Devourer the enemy, run back for heal, repeat, run back for new shields, repeat"
Would boost PE/spies in op wars also.
For PvM , the only place this would really screw up is MC5 .
Originally posted by Celt
And if you understood, we were talking about hunting zones, not S/D.
Another person who shouldnt be on this forum.
Are you dumb or just stupid?
I say it has taken over 13 pages and still 57.35% doesnt know wtf you need to take away the SD... bha read the post before you type pretty plz onoz on you
Originally posted by t0tt3
Are you dumb or just stupid?
I say it has taken over 13 pages and still 57.35% doesnt know wtf you need to take away the SD... bha read the post before you type pretty plz onoz on you
No, you are dumb.
I referred to the 3 pages with regards to making s/d foreigh castable in hunting zones, the poll doesnt refer to hunting zones, so what the **** drug are you on?
Celt you say 3 pages....
this is on the 13th and still 57.35% doesnt understand wtf u need to take away the SD from all attackers...
Originally posted by naimex
NO I don´t solo those
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They are also hunting zones, so you just contradicted everything you've said in the last 3 pages.
No I am mean...
Well lets refraise the shit then....
naimex bla bla to you for 3 pages about zones
you say: naimex you slow bla bla bla does it need to take 3 pages to get you to understand
then I say: well it takes 3 pages for him but this is on the 13th and we the 57% doesnt understand wtf u need to take SD away...
And yes I am on a drug called life whats your excuse?
Originally posted by Celt
Move on! Perhaps we both got it wrong.
That only took you a ½ page I am impressed maybe not so dumb as I thought.... O_o
Originally posted by t0tt3
No I am mean...
Well lets refraise the shit then....
naimex bla bla to you for 3 pages about zones
you say: naimex you slow bla bla bla does it need to take 3 pages to get you to understand
then I say: well it takes 3 pages for him but this is on the 13th and we the 57% doesnt understand wtf u need to take SD away...
And yes I am on a drug called life whats your excuse?
Move on! Perhaps we both got it wrong.
Originally posted by t0tt3
That only took you a ½ page I am impressed maybe not so dumb as I thought....
Back at you:lol:
Mr Friendly
13-02-04, 03:37
Originally posted by Ryuben
only one thing to say to this thread
stfu
:D :D :angel: agreed totally :p
Mr Friendly
13-02-04, 03:41
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
soon as you introduce the PPU this happens;
APUs become the most powerful of all the classes(100%).
Tanks become the second most powerful of all the classes(90%).
Spies become the third most powerful of all the classes(80%).
PEs become the weakest(75%).
lets look at the past, they both possess the mystical powers of magic, & both trained in the same areas to use them.
the monks owned the city for years until the copbots came. the monks were the rulers, almighty & powerful. they also have WEAKNESSESS, unlike the tank or PE with a good con setup.
i dont get u SD, ur like the lonley guy who wants to break up this couple who love each other & u have to see em every day... :\
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 03:43
Originally posted by Mr Friendly
lets look at the past, they both possess the mystical powers of magic, & both trained in the same areas to use them.
the monks owned the city for years until the copbots came. the monks were the rulers, almighty & powerful. they also have WEAKNESSESS, unlike the tank or PE with a good con setup.
i dont get u SD, ur like the lonley guy who wants to break up this couple who love each other & u have to see em every day... :\ You have got to be kiddin me man....?
Not really sure how to address this post, but it made me chuckle (I get the impression it was meant to be funny :p)
QD come ingame.. im at NF deck 1 on uranus..
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 03:50
Originally posted by naimex
QD come ingame.. im at NF deck 1 on uranus.. My account is inactive/being passed on to another.
I have access to two other accounts, but one, only has a low-level-APU on Uranus and the other isn't really much to do with me :p
edit;
And if you think "beating QD" is something worth recognition for when I haven't played anything but my PPU, or my low level APU in close to 4months now and my PE probably 7 months before that you need to think again :p
Mr Friendly
13-02-04, 03:52
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
You have got to be kiddin me man....?
Not really sure how to address this post, but it made me chuckle (I get the impression it was meant to be funny :p)
u think too long & too hard on most things, u get caught up in ur own discovery & dont realise the other possible ideas, instead u reject em :rolleyes: besides, u havent been active in the game for what? like 4 months now?.....lotsa things have changed dude..
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
My account is inactive/being passed on to another.
I have access to two other accounts, but one, only has a low-level-APU on Uranus and the other isn't really much to do with me :p
edit;
And if you think "beating QD" is something worth recognition for when I haven't played anything but my PPU, or my low level APU in close to 4months now and my PE probably 7 months before that you need to think again :p
Just out of curiosity...
when you´re not even playing.. how can you have any sense of what goes on ingame..
and what will balance the game..
reactivate your account.... play the game.. try using self buffs for a while, then try with ppu buffs.. you will notice the difference on the spot.
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 03:56
Originally posted by Mr Friendly
u think too long & too hard on most things, u get caught up in ur own discovery & dont realise the other possible ideas, instead u reject em :rolleyes: Quite true, actually.
However most of the time I reject them for good reason;
They're flawed.
However if you wanted to tell me how to play UT, or perhaps BG1/2 I'd probably let you have your way if you sounded competent.
It's a matter of expertise.
The maths and combat styles of this game, is one I understand, the others, I don't.
I'll openly admit, I'm a noob at BG 2 (I played it once or twice never got particularly far before getting bored), or some other games (maybe Planet Side or SW:G, even FFXI).
However here...
Unless I say I am not sure, or something in that fashion, I am normally right.
Why?
I check my facts over several times.
LoL.
Playing or not, I can tell things from the changes stated, or reports on this forum, or limited experience on the character I use.
Don't try attack me there, either.
I KNOW What I'm talking about / doing around here.
Someone else wants to take my account on, I have had a gratifying stint ingame here, however my interest in ingame politics/playing are over.
Issues with balance and other things are not...
As for not using PPU buffs.
As a PPU, I would run around on occasion unbuffed, merely healing.
more than enough.
Like I said one tank could never kill my PPU alone.
My PPU managed to make it 1/4 way across the zoneline, COMFORTABLY, and genrep out infront of close to 30 monks.
My PPU managed to get rezzes on other people while under fire from 6-15 organised players.
Of the calibur of Rabbi Fang (admittedly he was on his PE but that shouldn't stop him from killin a PPU when he has APU/PPU backup).
Sigh....
Shadow Dancer
13-02-04, 03:57
Originally posted by Mr Friendly
i dont get u SD, ur like the lonley guy who wants to break up this couple who love each other & u have to see em every day... :\
roflmao
That was hilarious.
But no you're wrong. I'm trying to balance the game, because i feel ppus are too important. Oh and, I like the fact that their are people out there who are together and care about each other. I would never do anything to break a couple a part if they truly cared about each other.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
I'll openly admit, I'm a noob at BG 2 (I played it once or twice never got particularly far before getting bored), or some other games (maybe Planet Side or SW:G, even FFXI).
However here...
Unless I say I am not sure, or something in that fashion, I am normally right.
Why?
I check my facts over several times.
because i have played this game without pauses since my bro made me see its potential.
And S/D selfcast except for hunting zones, will bring nothing more than unbalance to the game.
I have lommed more than 30 mil con xp, more than 20 mil str xp and shitloads of dex..
ive tried almost every combination of implants ingame for a tank..
and ive knocked it up, ive died in fights millions of times, merely for testing..
and taking away the s/d from a tank from a ppu during an op war.. he will in simple words get ********** by the rapid heals, and dmg absorbtion of a skilled pe.
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 04:02
Originally posted by naimex
because i have played this game without pauses since my bro made me see its potential.
And S/D selfcast except for hunting zones, will bring nothing more than unbalance to the game.
I have lommed more than 30 mil con xp, more than 20 mil str xp and shitloads of dex..
ive tried almost every combination of implants ingame for a tank..
and ive knocked it up, ive died in fights millions of times, merely for testing..
and taking away the s/d from a tank from a ppu during an op war.. he will in simple words get ********** by the rapid heals, and dmg absorbtion of a skilled pe.
[edited for violation of the forum rules]
Mr Friendly
13-02-04, 04:02
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Quite true, actually.
However most of the time I reject them for good reason;
They're flawed.
However if you wanted to tell me how to play UT, or perhaps BG1/2 I'd probably let you have your way if you sounded competent.
It's a matter of expertise.
The maths and combat styles of this game, is one I understand, the others, I don't.
I'll openly admit, I'm a noob at BG 2 (I played it once or twice never got particularly far before getting bored), or some other games (maybe Planet Side or SW:G, even FFXI).
However here...
Unless I say I am not sure, or something in that fashion, I am normally right.
Why?
I check my facts over several times.
LoL.
Playing or not, I can tell things from the changes stated, or reports on this forum, or limited experience on the character I use.
Don't try attack me there, either.
I KNOW What I'm talking about / doing around here.
Someone else wants to take my account on, I have had a gratifying stint ingame here, however my interest in ingame politics/playing are over.
Issues with balance and other things are not...
as do i dude, i dont study the game anymore, i KNOW it. been playin since beta 3 :)
& hehe, actually yeah i could also tell ya how to play those games also :p
& no, id have to disagree, experience is much diffrent than just reading about it. think about it....ppus would then not be able to do nething in wasties & PP except DB & para.......in other words, here we go again with all the para/DB spammin.
also realize most apus like to be able to be buffed sometimes in PP cuz basically its close to suicide to try & go kill someone inside with more than 2 guys in there. no fun. just get active for another month & actually test this idea of urs, see how bored u get, what the side affects are, etc, THEN decide on it
Originally posted by naimex
because i have played this game without pauses since my bro made me see its potential.
Didnt you say, you didnt play between january and september?
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 04:06
Friendly.
You don't get it.
I HAVE Tested and observed I DO know.
I don't NEED to be there right now because I know the game has not significantly ENOUGH Changed, even the changes that have been done are ones I am distinctly aware of, and are there in the power to defence ratios I am aware of.
Let me put it this way;
Since nothing else seems to be penetrating the density around here.
In regards to balance.
IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ME YOU ARE WRONG.
Okay?
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
I'm sorry you are too small minded to see that.
Let´s say I did good dmg to you, you were close to death..
Would you :
A: Stay and die
B: Run off heal, rebuff, and then run far far away
or
C: Run to minimum safety heal, rebuff run back and slay the poor opponent who does not have that fast heal, whos buffs do almost nothing..
I think you choose C.
This is one of the places the opponent (in this explanatory reply a tank) would rely on the buffs given to him.
PEs would in fact ´be the only class benefitting from a solution such as this.
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 04:08
Originally posted by naimex
Let´s say I did good dmg to you, you were close to death..
Would you :
A: Stay and die
B: Run off heal, rebuff, and then run far far away
or
C: Run to minimum safety heal, rebuff run back and slay the poor opponent who does not have that fast heal, whos buffs do almost nothing..
I think you choose C.
This is one of the places the opponent (in this explanatory reply a tank) would rely on the buffs given to him.
PEs would in fact ´be the only class benefitting from a solution such as this.
You forget I'm a duelist and a chivalrist?
Silly.
This scenario is also, completely fictional, I have beaten decent tanks in the past without even being HIT let alone anything else ¬.¬
Originally posted by Celt
Didnt you say, you didnt play between january and september?
yea i didnt play except a few hours in weekend, due to military service.
account was closed 2 months due to lack of payment.
2 months several months ago.
compare that to 4-7 months and counting.
----------------------------------------------------------
You are right here. and I apologize for my misinformatory reply.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
You forget I'm a duelist and a chivalrist?
Silly.
This scenario is also, completely fictional, I have beaten decent tanks in the past without even being HIT let alone anything else ¬.¬
--- and exactly where in this quote.. do you find the neccessity to further improve the PEs options of advantage ?
All I see from that is :: NERF the PE.
But IMHO I think every class is balanced as it is. as I´ve stated all along.
Mr Friendly
13-02-04, 04:08
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
In regards to balance.
IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ME YOU ARE WRONG.
Okay?
exactly my point. ur too conceeded. test it, then decide.
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 04:09
Originally posted by Mr Friendly
exactly my point. ur too conceeded. test it, then decide. Conceited.
And As I said, I have tested it.
Christ on a crutch.
Mr Friendly
13-02-04, 04:11
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
You forget I'm a duelist and a chivalrist?
Silly.
This scenario is also, completely fictional, I have beaten decent tanks in the past without even being HIT let alone anything else ¬.¬
pfft, rofl, u obviously havent played ne good tanks on pluto.....er wait, ur one of those saturn players arent u.... :\ oops
Originally posted by naimex
I was curious, I dont actually care if someone's been playing 1 month or 12, it has little bearing ;)
Originally posted by Mr Friendly
pfft, rofl, u obviously havent played ne good tanks on pluto.....er wait, ur one of those saturn players arent u.... :\ oops
Hes from uranus, as am I.
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 04:12
Originally posted by Mr Friendly
pfft, rofl, u obviously havent played ne good tanks on pluto.....er wait, ur one of those saturn players arent u.... :\ oops I play(ed) Every server.
I played a few of the "Good" Tanks on Pluto with a close to 15% complete PE Configuration.
Didn't win any but came close enough to know that they would be statistically more likely to lose, once my configuration was complete.
friendly;
http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90729
YOU SUGGESTED THIS IDEA.
And you believe you can possibly justify even the REMOSTED Valid oppinion on balance? LOL.
Mr Friendly
13-02-04, 04:14
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
I play(ed) Every server.
I played a few of the "Good" Tanks on Pluto with a close to 15% complete PE Configuration.
Didn't win any but came close enough to know that they would be statistically more likely to lose, once my configuration was complete.
name these "good tanks u battled" (even though i know u might just name some good guys u know who play pluto :rolleyes: )
Originally posted by Mr Friendly
name these "good tanks u battled" (even though i know u might just name some good guys u know who play pluto :rolleyes: )
QD does many things, and shades the truth and misremembers a lot :P, but he never outright lies..
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 04:16
Originally posted by Mr Friendly
name these "good tanks u battled" (even though i know u might just name some good guys u know who play pluto :rolleyes: ) Xia is the first one who jumps to mind I don't remember many more.
Xia did the best against me out of the lot but as I said 15% setup brought me fairly close to him.
Some other tanks might come forward to say that they dueled my pluto PE, however at this time I would be unable to put forward a list.
Originally posted by Celt
QD does many things, and shades the truth and misremembers a lot :P, but he never outright lies..
Made me chuckle :)
Mr Friendly
13-02-04, 04:16
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
I play(ed) Every server.
I played a few of the "Good" Tanks on Pluto with a close to 15% complete PE Configuration.
Didn't win any but came close enough to know that they would be statistically more likely to lose, once my configuration was complete.
friendly;
http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90729
YOU SUGGESTED THIS IDEA.
And you believe you can possibly justify even the REMOSTED Valid oppinion on balance? LOL.
mine's been tested IN GAME, urs has not :) its called "proof". without it a theory cannot succeed
& go on sayin w/e to these guys, im tired of tryin to get things through ur conceited self
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 04:18
Originally posted by Mr Friendly
mine's been tested IN GAME, urs has not :) its called "proof". without it a theory cannot succeed
& go on sayin w/e to these guys, im tired of tryin to get things through ur conceited self You can't fucking read.
I HAVE TESTED IT INGAME.
Jesus Christ.
Even if I hadn't, and had been overconfident and posted it, it's correct anyway ¬.¬
Your idea has been tested ingame you should have seen how friggin overpowered the monks were.
Three seperate times I've stated this idea has been tested.
[edited for violation of the forum rules]
Mr Friendly
13-02-04, 04:20
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
You can't fucking read.
I HAVE TESTED IT INGAME.
Jesus Christ.
Even if I hadn't, and had been overconfident and posted it, it's correct anyway ¬.¬
Your idea has been tested ingame you should have seen how friggin overpowered the monks were.
Three seperate times I've stated this idea has been tested.
[edited for consistency]
:rolleyes:
QuantumDelta
13-02-04, 04:21
Originally posted by Mr Friendly
:rolleyes: I see you are completely out of argument.
Good night?
Psycho Killa
13-02-04, 04:24
ROFLMAO @ Mr friendlys idea
ROFL
I Was going to post the meaning of balance from dictionary.com but when I seen the definition I realized you probably wouldnt understand that either.
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
ROFLMAO @ Mr friendlys idea
ROFL
I Was going to post the meaning of balance from dictionary.com but when I seen the definition I realized you probably wouldnt understand that either.
Made my day :):):):):)
Shadow Dancer
13-02-04, 07:28
Originally posted by naimex
PEs would in fact ´be the only class benefitting from a solution such as this.
Snipers and droners would be very deadly. Moreso. Snipers would hit hard, and you can't just negate their damage so easily with shields.
Droners could really make a good difference if people don't have shields.
Tank aoe would be deadlier. No shields to protect you. AOE hurts my apu really bad.
Apus? Do I need to explain? ;)
i'm all up for that cause it would seperate the no-skill from the skilled ppus
.cy
Gotterdammerung
13-02-04, 07:46
my eyes hurt after 16 pages.
Here is a word of advice. There are a few posters (no names mentioned) that cannot fathom someone may have an opposing viewpoint, they also by virtue of their personality are enamored of themselves, their writing styles and feel they are right 100% of the time. Some also can't/don't deal with other well.
The advice is, when you read through a long post like this, if you see someone who gets under your skin, LET IT PASS, be a bigger person and forgoe the jab or sarcasm. If someone disagrees with you don't get angry, LET IT PASS, it's a free world and people CAN disagree. Don't take to bashing people for what counrty they come from, implying that since english is not their primary language then they must be dumb as a rock as to not understand the sterling ideas laid out before them.
This isn't a telephone conversation where you blurt something out and can't take it back, you are TYPING and that takes time, So by the end of whatever you wanted to write, go back & re-read it and the things that you put in that were veiled jabs at people, edit them. Put a little time & effort into making what you post NOT sound like it came from an impetuious troll and you'll find you get taken alot more seriously.
Now lets get this back on track. I'd hate to see it closed for editing or closed outright.
Could all of you people that says making s/d selfcast only will make ppu useless like stop thinking about your apus. OMG you won't be an overpowered apu without s/d if this does happen. It'll put the skill back into the game. People will have to actually start thinking about there setups and whoever has the best setup will actually have an edge in op fights. And ppus will still have lots of roles. For one they'll still have heal which is the best ppu spell there is. They still get there buffs which can improve and make people setups better. They also got rezz which is a very useful spell.
Originally posted by petek480
Could all of you people that says making s/d selfcast only will make ppu useless like stop thinking about your apus. OMG you won't be an overpowered apu without s/d if this does happen. It'll put the skill back into the game. People will have to actually start thinking about there setups and whoever has the best setup will actually have an edge in op fights. And ppus will still have lots of roles. For one they'll still have heal which is the best ppu spell there is. They still get there buffs which can improve and make people setups better. They also got rezz which is a very useful spell.
exactly pete <3
:p
As many have said before apus have lost there range and there really hard punch.
As of now an apu takes a real beating even if they are buffed I think this would really hurt the apu.
Plus it would also be the rebirth of the hybrid my friend has one its preety mean can go head to head with just about everything only problem he has is with a PPU team cause of the shelter.
The advice is, when you read through a long post like this, if you see someone who gets under your skin, LET IT PASS, be a bigger person
The advice is, when you read through a long post like this, if you see someone who gets under your skin, LET IT PASS, be a bigger person
Top Top Top notch advice good for not only the forum posters but others as well to bad not many use it :(
Psycho Killa
13-02-04, 08:00
I have yet to fight a hybrid my pe couldnt outheal even while damage boosted....
Granted they outheal me also its pretty much a stalemate.
Apus would have to be defucked.
Originally posted by KimmyG
As many have said before apus have lost there range and there really hard punch.
As of now an apu takes a real beating even if they are buffed I think this would really hurt the apu.
Plus it would also be the rebirth of the hybrid my friend has one its preety mean can go head to head with just about everything only problem he has is with a PPU team cause of the shelter.
The advice is, when you read through a long post like this, if you see someone who gets under your skin, LET IT PASS, be a bigger person
The advice is, when you read through a long post like this, if you see someone who gets under your skin, LET IT PASS, be a bigger person
Top Top Top notch advice good for not only the forum posters but others as well to bad not many use it :(
Well kk can always adjust apus if they did make s/d selfcast only. And about hybrids, can your friend take on 2+ people at a time? If not then i don't see how it would be any different then now.
I read to page 8 then I skipped to last page. I don`t have time to read it all through. Some quick comments.
I would love seeing this change go through. People seem to put this change and how it would affect op-war situations as it is played today. Would monks be standing still or take solo rides into the op like I see some do when their buffs are running at 100%? Nope, you would have to think out some other strategy. That goes for all types of characters. In op-fights when hit by a sniper you might even consider to go hide from the line of sight. No really.
As for mobs that is outside. No problemo there as far as I can see. They need no reduction in damage. Any character can hunt wbs so tech parts is open for anyone to gain.
If you need to hunt doys or firemobs just get your ass into a Rhino. Problem solved.
Originally posted by Celt
just not make their whole team totally invincible.
Hardly makes them useless at op wars as crazy(apt name that :D)_ said.
Um.. ive took out teams by myself with them using a PPU then took out the PPU after :lol: ... its really no big deal... u just have to have the right time'ing and weapons =) ... (me using a Dev with meh tank owns :cool:)
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
I've explained more than enough times.
In more than enough detail.
Most of the skilled/decent players in the community understand exactly why this is just about the only way things can go, properly.
Any clan tactition and/or decent troop leader should also know this isn't the end of the PPU, or the APU.
All I see here so far in terms of people saying no, is stupid noobs.
And, as Celt said.
A slight un-nerfing of the rezz nerf, and some unnerfing of APU Damage would obviously accompany this.
However, it's much more favourable than current, useless/annoying, nerfs on both classes, nerfs which don't need to exist.
I can clearly see that you love monks... And I voted that it shouldnt be self-cast only, because it shouldnt. The point of having a ppu with you is to get buffs from. Not just heal, nor rezz, nor damage boost, but to have it all. To make you harder to kill, thus the reason to have a PPU to power level nOObs. PPU's should not have there spells nerfed, they should just be took out of the game IMO. But hey, thats my opinion. PPU's ruin PvP but make PvM better. Who wants to go into pepper park to find that you have 5 enemies that are being buffed by a PPU then get parashocked / damage boosted? But PPU's are not invincible, they can be killed. They are just annoying to me :mad:
Dribble Joy
13-02-04, 10:43
Originally posted by GRIM
I can clearly see that you love monks...
QD's only chars of note are his PE and his PPU.
And I voted that it shouldnt be self-cast only, because it shouldnt. The point of having a ppu with you is to get buffs from. Not just heal, nor rezz, nor damage boost, but to have it all. To make you harder to kill, thus the reason to have a PPU to power level nOObs.
That is not the point, this is a balance issue, whereby all classes under the PPU are equal in all situations. PPUs are STILL far too important.
PPU's should not have there spells nerfed, they should just be took out of the game IMO. But hey, thats my opinion. PPU's ruin PvP but make PvM better. Who wants to go into pepper park to find that you have 5 enemies that are being buffed by a PPU then get parashocked / damage boosted? But PPU's are not invincible, they can be killed. They are just annoying to me :mad:
I am somewhat confused as to your actualy opinion on the matter. You agree that they ruin PvP yet feel no need to sort this out? (other than the removal of PPUs)
Tbh, PPUs ruin PvM too, all you have to do is sit there and pug away while a PPU heals, buffs and boosts. There is no skill involved and it is bloody boring.
16 pages... when I left it was 7, blimey.
Originally posted by Mr Friendly
pfft, rofl, u obviously havent played ne good tanks on pluto.....er wait, ur one of those saturn players arent u.... :\ oops
Um... ok, something wrong with this picture... Mr Friendly, im from 4 servers and well... to tell you the truth there are only a FEW really good players on each server... People from Pluto think they are "teh ub3r kewl $h!t" but let me tell u this.... You have no clue what your talking about. Im playing on Uranus / Pluto atm and the differences that i see are: Pluto has more people ages 16 and younger (hope this dosent offend anyone) and they are less mature than on Uranus (all the whine'ing and cry'ing), there are less trade skillers, less role players, less carebears, more Random PKing, more people online.... The thing that i dont see is where there is more / better people in PvPing. To my knowledge there may be 10 people that are good at PvP on Pluto, and 8 people on Uranus? ... How does this make people from Pluto better? ... "sigh" nOObs these days :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
Tbh, PPUs ruin PvM too, all you have to do is sit there and pug away while a PPU heals, buffs and boosts. There is no skill involved and it is bloody boring.
Tried MC5 lately?
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
[BI am somewhat confused as to your actualy opinion on the matter. You agree that they ruin PvP yet feel no need to sort this out? (other than the removal of PPUs)
[/B]
ya i dunno wut im talking about there.. sorry im a lil tired haha but i dont like PPUs... nor APU's ... and i would like to see parashock removed from the game... PPUs are still somewhat of use but i dont think they belong in PvP.. btw Drib.. u know me, we fight in NeoFrag every now and then :p
It is a stupid idea. I am sure someone has explained why.
I voted yes, because I know if it ever did happen most people would Lom out of PPU and it would totally fuk over all the other players (and lead to whines of 'omg nerf heal' next).
Originally posted by Archeus
It is a stupid idea. I am sure someone has explained why.
I voted yes, because I know if it ever did happen most people would Lom out of PPU and it would totally fuk over all the other players (and lead to whines of 'omg nerf heal' next).
Actually, surprise surprise, nobody has put forward a convincing argument why it's a stupid idea. They just say it's stupid idea yet cannot back that up. Perhaps you would like to enlighten us?
BTW Grim nice quintuple post.
Because it doesn't stop anything.
Self casting S/D means the PPUs will have the best defenses (still hard to kill). Other players will die faster, except for those who have a PPU in tow. APUs will be totally useless in combat, so instead of dealing with it people will whine more to nerf PPUs.
So it is a stupid idea as it solves nothing, of course thats assuming there is actually a problem.
and i would like to see parashock removed from the game
It is removed for all intents and purposes.
Originally posted by Archeus
Because it doesn't stop anything.
Self casting S/D means the PPUs will have the best defenses (still hard to kill). Other players will die faster, except for those who have a PPU in tow. APUs will be totally useless in combat, so instead of dealing with it people will whine more to nerf PPUs.
So it is a stupid idea as it solves nothing, of course thats assuming there is actually a problem.
A good APU is capable of fighting without a PPU, they won't be completely useless in combat, they just won't be better than any other class with PPU buffs.
With selfcast S/D we can balance all the classes for PvP without PPUs and they'll still be balanced WITH PPUs. In a 3v3, one side with a PPU, the other without, it would still be possible to bring down the 2 combat classes on the other team and at least force a stalemate with the PPU, if not killing him. Whereas now, in that 3v3 the combat classes with the PPU are far more difficult to kill. A PPU buffed APU has better defence than a self buffed PE, yet he has more offense than any other class. That it why PPU/APU is overpowered. Removing the shields makes this much more balanced, but without nerfing PPUs.
Also why would "Other players die faster, except those with a PPU in tow?" They won't have PPU buffs anyway if they don't have a PPU in tow, so their defence won't be any different. The difference is they can actually damage their PPU buffed opponents, which reduces the number of weapons targetting them, which means they actually survive longer.
Originally posted by Archeus
Because it doesn't stop anything.
Self casting S/D means the PPUs will have the best defenses (still hard to kill). Other players will die faster, except for those who have a PPU in tow. APUs will be totally useless in combat, so instead of dealing with it people will whine more to nerf PPUs.
So it is a stupid idea as it solves nothing, of course thats assuming there is actually a problem.
It is removed for all intents and purposes.
1. I don`t care if I can kill ppus or not.They cant kill me directly. I cant see any reason why I would whine to nerf ppus more. It wouldn`t change anything from today.
2. Players will die faster. Yes, but maybe not as fast as you might think because you wont be standing in the same spot recieving damage like its done now.=fast death.
3. The player with a ppu in tow will have its rightfull combatboost and live longer. It just makes the ppu a resource to be treasured and cared for more.
4. With a fix to HL and stuff like that I would find it hard to say that apus are useless. I guess you have to come to terms with the fact that you would be a soft target and play accordingly. Meaning no op storming for you. Leave that to the tank and keep popping in and out of range of your spells and outsmart your foe. Maybe you could use some cover also?
5. I think there is a problem.
Originally posted by Mirco
3. The player with a ppu in tow will have its rightfull combatboost and live longer. It just makes the ppu a resource to be treasured and cared for more.
That is exactly the way it is now and people are screaming to have them nerfed.
Originally posted by Archeus
That is exactly the way it is now and people are screaming to have them nerfed.
Erm yes, but because of S/D only being selfcast a ppu has less time to spend on focusing on other allied players and has to concentrate on his partner for that fight. This means that other targets stay "soft" and the player with the ppu also would be easier to kill so it would be nothing like it is today.
Originally posted by Archeus
That is exactly the way it is now and people are screaming to have them nerfed.
Stop twisting words. It's clear that the player with a PPU in tow will die faster than he would now, yet still lasting a little longer than a self buffed opponent, which means PPUs still have a role to play.
Dribble Joy
13-02-04, 12:21
Originally posted by GRIM
Tried MC5 lately?
The very reason mob dmg and hp/reists has been increased over and over and over again is because PPUs have made it too easy.
MC5 is something of a special case, because there is no room for skill, there is no cover to hide behind to heal.
This idea is a CONCEPT, not a single change, there would HAVE to be subsequent changes to mob and PvP dmg and other issues balanced.
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