View Full Version : APUs should seriously get reticle! Here's why.....
Shadow Dancer
10-02-04, 04:14
A reticle would be a GOOD thing. See, IMO(and I know many apus will disagree), fire apoc and HL don't really need a damage boost. To me, they have the opposite problem that HL had pre-nerf. Pre-nerf HL often scored high random damage too many times and the "ceiling" for random damage was way too high.
FA had good damage, but the "floor"(:p) for random damage was too low and I felt that I would hit that too often. Hitting a PE 5 times with a capped FA and not even getting close to half health. Yes sometimes that happened.
Now if apu damage was based on reticle and how closed or open it was, then that would be different. That means if you keep getting low damage, it's not because it's random, it's because you suck. :D And you can always improve that. ;)
Now I wasn't sure if HL should have gotten a reticle before, because the max damage was too high. So if it was based on a reticle, then a skilled apu would be overpowered. But HL is no longer overpowered, so there's no need to worry about that any MO.
The "tighter" your reticle on the target is, the higher your damage range. And vice versa. It would be more skill based, like the other classes. It would be more fair as well. You could make it based on psi use and handling on spells.
Oh yea, and give apus TL 3 heal. Seriously now. :)
Hell, the reticle doesn't even have to be for all spells, maybe just beam spells.
Apus aren't like ppus, apus can be easy to balance. IMO at least.
But anyways, what do ya'll think?
Oh and if you disagree, please say why. :)
I have always agreed on something like this. Why do apus/ppus get to hit targets around a wall without even using a reticule again? :rolleyes:
Psychoninja
10-02-04, 04:24
We already had this convo in PP1 :P
Agreed. Even though I hate recticles. I don't know about APUs having TL3 heals, Just medkits with the same effect would be nice.
Lifewaster
10-02-04, 04:26
PLEASE MAKE THIS HAPPEN , and for PPU spells too, if you want holy heal to get full effect you need a close aim for teh entire cast, or if you can snipe heal several ppl at once they are gonna get lesser healing etc......
PLEASE I'm sick of monkacron , I wanna be a balanced monk, and to fight against balanced ones.
sounds good to me . . . also wasnt' the ppu penalty reduced in the last patch to 5% although I know the attack chips take away ppu . . . and I guess it's not that great to not have those in just to have a TL 3 heal . .hmm oh well . . .maybe when you're just leveling up don't use attack chips and have a TL 3 heal *shrug*
Lifewaster
10-02-04, 04:30
Hmm an idea about the tl 3 heal, what if minimum reduction on APU was set to 10 instead of 0 ?
Like atm if you have all the attack chips, your PPU is minus 25 , but it appears zero, this could be moved to 10 somehow ? so having just 10 in PPU for heal , you would still get the 10 even with attack chips etc......
Or hell, even make it 30 , thats not gonna make any any uber hybrids if ppl have a 30 APU or PPU on the side......might even encourage mild hybrids instead of whatever turns out to be the new optimal 50/50 ones.
Shadow Dancer
10-02-04, 04:42
Originally posted by Psychoninja
We already had this convo in PP1 :P
Agreed. Even though I hate recticles. I don't know about APUs having TL3 heals, Just medkits with the same effect would be nice.
Noooooooo.
Because a PE with a capped TL 3 heal and a medkit that gives the effect of a TL 3 heal. I dunno, that might be a bit too much.
Or give us a leech spell.
I mean give apus a leech spell. :D
Originally posted by Lifewaster
PLEASE MAKE THIS HAPPEN , and for PPU spells too, if you want holy heal to get full effect you need a close aim for teh entire cast, or if you can snipe heal several ppl at once they are gonna get lesser healing etc......
PLEASE I'm sick of monkacron , I wanna be a balanced monk, and to fight against balanced ones.
I think a reticle would balance apus, but not ppus. To me the problem with ppus is their importance. And just stressing them out by adding a reticle isn't really going to help that.
Um, but really this thread is only about apus and reticle. Let's not go somewhere else please. :D
Originally posted by Lifewaster
Hmm an idea about the tl 3 heal, what if minimum reduction on APU was set to 10 instead of 0 ?
Like atm if you have all the attack chips, your PPU is minus 25 , but it appears zero, this could be moved to 10 somehow ? so having just 10 in PPU for heal , you would still get the 10 even with attack chips etc......
Or hell, even make it 30 , thats not gonna make any any uber hybrids if ppl have a 30 APU or PPU on the side......might even encourage mild hybrids instead of whatever turns out to be the new optimal 50/50 ones.
I have no idea what's your saying. :p
But you did give me an idea. What if the - penalty only applied to the amount of ppu points you have in ppu equal to the penalty or higher.
Err, in other words, let's say you have a -25 penalty. If you put 25 points into ppu, it would still say 25. But then you would need another 25 points to get it to 26.
how about that?
Come on that's a great idea. :D
Lifewaster
10-02-04, 04:46
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I have no idea what's your saying. :p
But you did give me an idea. What if the - penalty only applied to the amount of ppu points you have in ppu equal to the penalty or higher.
Err, in other words, let's say you have a -25 penalty. If you put 25 points into ppu, it would still say 25. But then you would need another 25 points to get it to 26.
how about that?
Come on that's a great idea. :D
Bah thats what I said, your just trying to take the credit.
Well actually your idea is better, I was just saying that PPU points dont get reduced below 30 at all from minus effects.
But your way is better, ie with 25 ppu you get no reduction from the 3 attack chips, while with 50 PPU you would be subject to 25 points reducable etc.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Now if apu damage was based on reticle and how closed or open it was, then that would be different. That means if you keep getting low damage, it's not because it's random, it's because you suck. :D And you can always improve that. ;)
Oh yea, and give apus TL 3 heal. Seriously now. :)
I LOVE YOU!
And i also love this idea. So simple and still so great. 5 stars.
SEX
sure.. give the monks reticles, and make their damages depend on reticle size..
but I´m gonna be pissed if you put a reticle on melee..
This is a great idea!! I love it!!
I really like the idea that Lifewaster suggested and you clarified.
TL3 heals for APU's? Now that's a good idea. :D
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I think a reticle would balance apus, but not ppus. To me the problem with ppus is their importance. And just stressing them out by adding a reticle isn't really going to help that.
Thats the one thing I don't agree with. I mean, when your running around in combat like that, do you think your really going to have the time(and skill) to sit there and follow a person around till your recticle is fully closed? Not really.
I personally really don't see any other way to decrese ppu's importance in op fights. Unless you make shelter and deflector self-cast only(leaving everything else tho, maybe tone down holy heal by a tad.) Only other reason I could think of would be to get rid of PPU's. But there would be ALOT of pissed people if that happened...
You want my opininon? Take out psis all together. Thats my opinion.
Ya know reticles actually help ya aim. It tells you when you should shoot. If lib aimed like a spell I wouldnt hit anything at all ;)
Just thought I'd add that.
Originally posted by ServeX
You want my opininon? Take out psis all together. Thats my opinion.
One question about that - What would the current PSIs do about chars? I mean, hell, I wouldn't want to have PSIs taken out, get my char deleted, then have to make a new char and level that up again...
ZoneVortex
10-02-04, 06:11
yeah good idea Shad
HHHhhhhEEEEeeeYYYyyy!!!
This makes sense......
The more closed in the reticle is on the target, the harder the monk is concentrating on its target, the more damage the spell will do.
The farther away the target is, the weaker the spell is, the reticle will not close all the way if the target is far away, the spell will do less damage because the mental energy travels a greater distance.
Its a known fact that energy is lost the longer it travels.
if the target is simply out of range like people can be with ammo using weapons, then he simply just wastes mana like they do now, just like how ammo weapons waste ammo.
5 stars
this idea kicks ass.
Zan said EVERYTHING I was about to say.
Especialy the concentration part, that was going to be my RP connection suggestion.
Shadow Dancer
10-02-04, 07:00
Originally posted by Drake6k
Ya know reticles actually help ya aim. It tells you when you should shoot. If lib aimed like a spell I wouldnt hit anything at all ;)
Just thought I'd add that.
o_O
Originally posted by ServeX
You want my opininon? Nerf the devourer
Indeed!
j/k
:p
C'mon Serve, we need realistic solutions. You know damn well KK would never take out PSIS.
@zan
Exactly. ;)
yeah...great idea. now if they would just implement it....
Psycho Killa
10-02-04, 07:35
All i have to say is if you put a reticle on my heal I will quit ppuing forever. Weither or not you want that is fine by me but its so fucking hard being a psi monk as it is. Its so hard to get a heal off on someone dancing around between enemies and allies alike to do it with a reticle would be impossible.
Yes this is no threat no lie no nothing I would NEVER EVER play a ppu again if there was a ppu reticle.
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
All i have to say is if you put a reticle on my heal I will quit ppuing forever. Weither or not you want that is fine by me but its so fucking hard being a psi monk as it is. Its so hard to get a heal off on someone dancing around between enemies and allies alike to do it with a reticle would be impossible.
Yes this is no threat no lie no nothing I would NEVER EVER play a ppu again if there was a ppu reticle.
I tried playing a PPU once and it bored the hell out of me, not to mention the fact that I suck at it. ;)
But I can see your point. It really would suck as a PPU to have to worry about a PPU reticule, especially one that governed the effectiveness of your heals/buffs.
People already give PPU's a hard time, or so I've heard, about not getting their heals on time, now imagine the uproar if their buffs are less effective because of a reticule.
This is great idea for APU's, NOT for PPU's.
If it's possible to give one a reticule w/o the other, this idea should be implemented as soon as possible.
I disagree because I have no skills and suck at aiming.
Psyco Groupie
10-02-04, 09:39
yes for beam spells
nothing else, and no apu heal O.o
you all still arent satisfied?
they have nerfed the apu to the point where its rarely used (saturn) all i see now are nibs who think the devourer is the answer to everything.
wtf leave the psi alone. boost everything else
APU: Yes
PPU: No
Simple, if you've ever played a PPU you know how people run around the place. Getting a lock on people in the first place is hard enough. A reticle for PPUs is not viable.
I played my monk as PPU when he was capped in PSI and I would consider myself a good PPU. However, it doesn't matter how good you are really, since people don't stand still. As PPU I would not accept a reticle. As an APU (which I play now to cap INT) I wouldn't have a problem with it in the form of Shadow's idea.
EDIT: Of course if and only if they un-nerf the HL and other spells and remove the random damage (damage implied by how much the reticle is closed instead).
HL needs a damage boost. Seriously. And APUs need speshulfull bones that enable them to use TL3 heal/Deflector/ubar leech spell.
The reticle ist gut, but, we dont want fucking melee APUs that have to be 2m away to do decent damage.
And the reticle must be fast, your using your mind to cast this shit, not your eye.
Original monk
10-02-04, 10:14
no reticules for spells: why ? dont change sumthing that is OK allready ...
tl3 heal for apu's : YES (deflector nope, heal yes)
MjukisDjur
10-02-04, 11:00
please stop kicking the dead apu...
steweygrrr
10-02-04, 11:02
Originally posted by Lifewaster
Hmm an idea about the tl 3 heal, what if minimum reduction on APU was set to 10 instead of 0 ?
Like atm if you have all the attack chips, your PPU is minus 25 , but it appears zero, this could be moved to 10 somehow ? so having just 10 in PPU for heal , you would still get the 10 even with attack chips etc......
Or hell, even make it 30 , thats not gonna make any any uber hybrids if ppl have a 30 APU or PPU on the side......might even encourage mild hybrids instead of whatever turns out to be the new optimal 50/50 ones.
make hybrid chips simple. Secondly hitting things around a wall that they know are there...power of the mind. Finally don't give us a reticle....take away runcast. Not walk cast too, just run cast
Yes, good idea. I don't see any reason why PPUs would need to be forced to have a reticle though - just put it on parashock, maybe damage boost, and leave everything else as it is.
shodanjr_gr
10-02-04, 12:17
Didnt read thru the whole post, im bored. I just got a question for SD. How can u consider the HL to be fine at the moment??
A sheltered PE got shot with it 16 times and still had a tad of health left. Then he was shot 16 times with an energy beam and he also had a tad of health left (almost the same as before). Now the HL is 13 (i think) tls higher than energy beam, does that sound right?
Also, you believe that the main damage dealing class in the game should be getting the worst damage? I mean that PE could have been taken down far more easily by a CS tank, and killed in like 5 or 6 seconds by a devourer tank.
This is not normal, HL damage should be fixed first to what it was pre-195 patch.
After that you can talk about a reticle...
KramerTheWeird
10-02-04, 12:28
Shadow Dancer and I have been talking about this for some time :)
He used to argue that he high end random damage would hurt too much but yes now it seems about right. Also, reticle size should determine range too.
To me it seems that apu's are not powerful at all anymore.
To me it seems that tanks and PE's are more powerful now.
So why not nerf them and let apu's be already.
APU's have been nerfed almost in every patch and
tanks and PE's get better and better stuff all the time
Man the amount of monk whiners that come along whenever its suggested they have to aim.
If the HL got a reticle it would do high damage with a closed or near closed reticle but would do crap damage if it was open.
Thats not suggesting aim so stop crying about that.
It also means that if you take time before you start HL spamming that you will be guarenteed high end damage and this would make the HL strong again undoing the nerf.
Do the crybaby apus understand now?
Its not suggesting a nerf its suggesting a way of putting some sort of skill back into the class so it might be worth playing again since it wont be point and click anymore.
As for ppus no reticle because its hard enough to hit the right person in opwars with them as it is.
I agree, APU Reticles for every APU. And the the longer your reticle aims at a target the higher damage thingy.
Also lower the Dev damage back as it was last patch or something.
I think its a fantastic idea to be honest - would really improve the way an APU has to be played.
Better player = Better damage
pwnd :D
5 stars btw
Clownst0pper
10-02-04, 14:16
Sorry shadow but i dont agree with your thread.
Most of the time alot of APU's miss cast, as PVP in Neocron revolves around the follow.
I strafe left, circling.
My opponent strafes right circling.
And in some circumstances I may change direct ohh, just to get the edge.
Imagine an APU that to dmg has to effectivly stand still or, because you want a reticle for them to do any amount of dmg, they will sacrifice this damage by following the motions of standard PVP just to stay alive.
And I know for a fact most APU's would never adopt a stand there approach, as a non-moving player, is a dead player in Neocron.
Sorry, I play a tank, and monks are fine at the moment, I actually think Holy Lightning Needs a boost :confused:
Uh with a reticle you can still run about just like the other classes to get reticle lock.....OMG WHAT YOU CAN RUN WHILE TARGETING PEOPLE WITH RETICLE?
so if the apus have to wait and aim with a recticle like everyone else, are they gonna get better heals/const like everyone else?
if they get more powerful aim the longer they wait for the recticle to close, what lvl should it be when they do cast they spell? cos I'm sure whatever it is, it will be too powerful
as for taking the psi's out completely, have these people read the story? its like playing swg and saying that the jedis should be taken out
Clownst0pper
10-02-04, 14:20
Uh with a reticle you can still run about just like the other classes to get reticle lock.....OMG WHAT YOU CAN RUN WHILE TARGETING PEOPLE WITH RETICLE?
The point I was making is if a monk moves, the reticle will never be 100% closed, unlike a stationary target, players often move so fast, your reticle is often only 3/4 closed.
In effect not allowing apus to ever reach there damage cap on spells.
Sorry but I think its a terrible idea.
There shouldnt be a target reticle on monk spells because its a roleplay issue. The monks are blind, they dont use their eyes to see things, they "feel" it. thereby they "feel" the enemy and hit em by that and dont need to aim with their eyes like the rest of the human population in a postapocalyptic 3rd worldwar world.
/edit First i thought wow great idea for apu's, then i realised that a ppu would die very very fast if this was implemented and everyone he tried to support would die aswell. so no.
Originally posted by CarniFlex
There shouldnt be a target reticle on monk spells because its a roleplay issue. The monks are blind, they dont use their eyes to see things, they "feel" it. thereby they "feel" the enemy and hit em by that and dont need to aim with their eyes like the rest of the human population in a postapocalyptic 3rd worldwar world.
If we take it a roleplay way, then Monks would be weaker then the other classes....
"Through spring Thor forms up his men and some new followers from the ranks of Ceres to take Neocron with their help. Thor's men are equipped with a powerful hand weapon which shoots heavy plasma. This green glowing concentrated energy contains an enormous amount of destructive power. When Thor's men leave the city of Ceres they know that there's no turning back. Ceres has told them that everyone who'd rather choose war than peace would be forfeiting his place in this community.
The Battle of Neocron doesn't last long. After Crahn and his Psi Monk bodyguards manage to escape, the remaining Psi Monks surrender quickly when realizing that they stand no chance against the powerful energy weapons of Thor. Thor is displeased by the escape of Crahn, but the joy and jubilance of the liberated people comfort him enough to forget his disappointment soon enough. And there are not only his own people who receive him with cheers, but also the people of Crahn. They, too, had suffered badly under the cruel reign of Crahn and his monks and now hope for the organization of a just government or at least for Thor to take over the city as a just ruler, he, about whom they had heard so many encouraging tales.
Crahn flees together with his guards into the wastelands. On the base of an old ruin they begin with the construction of a secured abbey. In the course of the following years Crahn dies. His guards found the Sect of Crahn in the abbey. This sect will become a most influential religion in the following decades."
In other word, trying to argue using Roleplay is STUPID.
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
The point I was making is if a monk moves, the reticle will never be 100% closed, unlike a stationary target, players often move so fast, your reticle is often only 3/4 closed.
In effect not allowing apus to ever reach there damage cap on spells.
Sorry but I think its a terrible idea.
Thats almost like saying that I should expect my reticle to be closed all the time while using a pistol running around.
There shouldnt be a target reticle on monk spells because its a roleplay issue. The monks are blind, they dont use their eyes to see things, they "feel" it. thereby they "feel" the enemy and hit em by that and dont need to aim with their eyes like the rest of the human population in a postapocalyptic 3rd worldwar world.
/edit First i thought wow great idea for apu's, then i realised that a ppu would die very very fast if this was implemented and everyone he tried to support would die aswell. so no.
For one SD didnt say that this was ment to effect ppus.
As for "feeling" the enemy. You see as much and as good as any non-monk in this game. If you didnt need to aim you should also be able to hit people behind walls, fences and other obstacles.
Now if you had a distorted view of some sort thats something else. I would assume the monk cant feel and entire zone. Perhaps something like the different views in AvP.
Look at it as the monk needing to keep up his concentration to be able to target the spells.
here's an example of why monks dont need reticles........... if you can 't be bothered to read it - the point is - cos we're so damn weak!
my apu was hunting at the weekend, one sector to the east of MB, the one with a small tower with one ladder (K14?? cant remember)
I usually hunt alone, sometime with friends (pe, spy or tank) very rarely with a ppu unless its somewhere in a big team. this time a pe (shout to Lana Darkwolf)
I was baiting the warbot then running back to the tower for cover (cover - the friend of every apu)
We killed a wartit, then i saw a big spiderbot, tried to hit it but hadn't got the range (apu is near capped) the pe couldnt see the bot it was so far away.
I started to climb down the tower, and the bot started to fire its (newly boosted or so its seems) weapons at me, I had to use my (uber) medikits on the way down, I couldnt get down that quickly cos of the newly nerfed PA3 I was wearing, I got to the bottom with 4 health, the uber medikits couldnt keep up with the damage this uber mob was doing. I tried to run to cover, but couldnt, i tried to turn and hit the mob, buts till hadnt got the range with my HL, FA or the capped holy halo I have. So I died there at the bottom. This is with PA3, full holy spirit armour, 360 in heath and bsing pure apu - no veh, a little rec.
the PE couldnt believe I had died to that mob, as he couldnt even see it until I told him where it was.
My point is.................. (at last) on top of the nerfed spells, extra agl loss on pa, being the weakest class, and having to nearly cap spells to be able to use them while running, you now think its a good idea to make us wait to use full power on our casts too??
Sorry, I usually totally agree with Shads, but I think he's got it completely wrong on this one.
@clownstopper & carniflex - nice to hear a non-psi speaking up for us!
Originally posted by Wellard
...We killed a wartit...
I usually don't mark words, but that one really gets my imagination going... o_O
WARTIT 120/120 ***
(.)(^) (^)(.) (.)(^)
Damage boost it!!
EDIT: Ok, I'm bored o_O
@phunge - :D looks like ur horny and bored
You are missing what clownstopper is saying.
For other weapons... reticle size doesnt dictate damage, it dictates hit or miss.
If you make reticle size indicate damage for monks, then a monk can ONLY get the full damage from their spell with a 100% closed reticle.
No other class must have a 100% closed reticle to deal max damage.
No class can effectively keep a 100% closed reticle in PvP without standing still.
And max damage is the one advantage supposedly of the APU.
Clownst0pper
10-02-04, 15:32
Glad you are intelligant Strych9
:angel:
In pvp its harder to keep a closed reticle while standing still because you have to move to keep the reticle closed on the target and it could be made that max damage is at 75% closed rather then 100% but that would be a balancing issue.
Monks have it too easy and they are used to having it too easy so whenever anything happens to nerf, also known as balancing, they complain and when an idea that would put some skill into using the class its flamed down.
Apus have pretty shit con yes but they can use terrain to make it so they cant get hit making up for this in pvm and have ppus to make their resists as near to a tanks so it doesnt matter in pvp so your point of 'onoz I got killed by a spider bot so dont change monks' has no relivance it just shows you werent being careful enough.
Originally posted by Mr_Snow
Apus have pretty shit con yes but they can use terrain to make it so they cant get hit making up for this in pvm and have ppus to make their resists as near to a tanks so it doesnt matter in pvpSorry thats bogus reasoning.
So in PvM they can use terrain to avoid damage (not so much if they have to have reticle closure. YES thats the way it is NOW... but thats not how it would be with this suggestion. They couldnt use terrain as much if they had to wait for reticle closure)...
But PvP? Because they can have a PPU monk its no big deal?
WTF??
Well EVERY class can have a PPU strapped to them like a colostomy bag, but that doesnt mean you use that idea to balance anything. Thats the VERY thinking that has led to the many problems people have with PPUs today (the thought that you MUST have one to do anything).
APUs have crappy defense because their offense is uber. Or thats how it should be. Their spells already do random damage, which takes away from the uberness... but if you strap on a reticle, then I think it only fair that they get some other form of compensation.
A TL3 APU heal that they could cap would at least help.
All i have seen that monks are rerolling much now at pluto, ppu's and some of apu's, i have capped apu too, havent play it like in 2 weeks or so, its useless, i get under 10m from a tank with cs or dev, ill die in 2sec and tank will take like 150 damage from 4 hits from hl :p
tankocron is back :)
Clownst0pper
10-02-04, 15:45
APUs have crappy defense because their offense is uber. Or thats how it should be. Their spells already do random damage, which takes away from the uberness... but if you strap on a reticle, then I think it only fair that they get some other form of compensation.
There offensive isnt even that good any more...
A tank + PPU vs. An APU + PPU the tank will always win.
Ive yet to loose in that scenario, Tanks have insane dmg now, and insane defence with a Holy Shelter and Holy Heal.
Sorry but APU's have been nerfed to fuck and back, I think tweak holy lightning some, and add some sort of thorn barrier and thye will be desirable again.
Originally posted by Strych9
A TL3 APU heal that they could cap would at least help.
Read Shadows first post.
My primary is a melee tank so I know what random damage is like.
I personally would like if ppus just disappeared but you cant balance a game on what you would like in it you have to balance it on what really happens in the game and with holy shelter and deflector on a tank and apu the only major difference is the amount of health they have.
Terrain doesnt dictate that you cant use reticles it would take more skill but that would be the point of adding this change in general.
Clownst0pper
10-02-04, 15:54
the only major difference is the amount of health they have.
Wrong, A monk can NEVER have the resists of a tank.
and now, the CS does double the dmg of a holy lightning to all classes.
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
Wrong, A monk can NEVER have the resists of a tank.
and now, the CS does double the dmg of a holy lightning to all classes.
Man your living in the day when resists meant something in op wars with holy shelter and holy deflector they dont mean a hell of a lot only a percentage or 2 extra damage.
Clownst0pper
10-02-04, 16:06
Man your living in the day when resists meant something in op wars with holy shelter and holy deflector they dont mean a hell of a lot only a percentage or 2 extra damage.
Wrong again, Shelter only reduces so much dmg, and after that it 100% becomes a case of resists.
If it doesnt mean a hell of a lot why is it dispite An APU having a holy shelter and heal on my CS rips them them EVER TIME like a knife through butter?
Sorry but APU's dont have it easy.
[list=1]
They have no heal
there damage on even the highest rares is still random
miss casts are all too common, even without a reticle
there con is highly limited
they cant use gamma bones
The new power armour decreases there running speed quite considerably
[/list=1]
shodanjr_gr
10-02-04, 16:21
And people telling that APUs can get behind cover in PvM....
Please remember that positioning urself in such a way that a mob can not hit you is an exploit.
Refrain from doing that. Shoot a grim while you are in his plain sight.
Become an APU toast....
•Super|\|ova•
10-02-04, 16:27
5 stars. Keep it going SD :) Maybe some day we will get a reticle for our APUs.
Psycho Killa
10-02-04, 16:45
Originally posted by Strych9
No other class must have a 100% closed reticle to deal max damage.
No class can effectively keep a 100% closed reticle in PvP without standing still.
Last I checked hitting someone for 30 damage without a closed reticle for an apu is better then hitting someone for 0 damage with out a closed reticle for a gun o_O
And if you do manage to get a 100 percent lock you would do max damage each shot and if you have ever used a weapon you would realize this would of insanely overpowered apus when holy lightning was doing sometimes 130 a hit.
ITs not that hard to lock onto a target geez any of you against this ever use a pistol? Im sure hes not talking heavy weapons type aiming :rolleyes:
I think this would definately improve apu's not hurt them.
Clownst0pper
10-02-04, 17:30
Have you all got your heads up your arses?
Have you even faught an APU l8ly?
I dont think ive died to a single lone apu in months, there dmg output is terrible now, compared to EVERY other class which has a boost bigger than mosts players ego.
A reticle is unessasery - I know, lets have it so unless you have a fully closed reticle you cant fire your pistol or cannon.
OH YES THAT WILL BALANCE IT.
Jesus, its a shit idea, and KK know it, or they would have implemented it so long ago.
I completely agree with this as it would be a major boost to the apu imo. Atm with random dmg and with the bug atm where i mostly hit lows, im finding it still playable, even if slightly frustrating. Now on the basis that a reticle is fully open and you do that dmg then i find it workable since alot of the time the reticle will close more, yes it wont be great for dueling situations, but imo apus arent designed as a dueling char. About the point of rarely getting a closed reticle, you should rarely do dmg to the insane highs a apu can. If i hit a tank for 150+ every time (around the value of a high hit from my experience) wouldn't that be too overpowered, but now giving the power to do this to the apu, then at least where you dont get a high you'll know why, rather than wondering why kk's arch angel of randomness is pissing on you from above, nothing in a game like this should be random, not slots not dmg, nothing. This game should be based on the skill of the player and point investment. And as a last point apus, would pwn more in pvm with it :p
Please pay attention. This isn't an APU nerf...in fact, it would make them more effective, since they could do MORE dmg as long as they developed a skill that every other class has...aiming.
IMO, the major reason no one plays APUs really anymore is that they die SO fast now that everyone else is doing comparable damage.
Personally, I only use my APU for hunting warbots now, since in any 1 on 1 fight, I know I'll die before I can do significant damage. One CS burst = death. I'm not even going to get into what a Devourer could do...
And everyone LOVES to kill them, since almost anything they drop, being spells or PA or whatever is gonna sell for a bit.
I realise that APU is supposed to be pure damage, but they really need at least a working defence.
now im normally fully anti monk(well i still am)but when you face a monk who previously beat me everytime in the past 5 times ive fough him (2 as heavy 3 as melee) the amo has gone down.
i wouldnt want the recticle to determin the damage, if it was to get a recticle that was like others ie you hit or you miss kinda thing(i know there is partial shots as welletc)then maybe.
atm ive gone from fearing monks onmy tank to laughing at them, be it melee or heavy not one lone monk 1v1 has been able to beat me in the last few patches.
a slight boost( i say SLIGHT!!!)could do for the apus.
also i think the recticle if i was to come should onyl be on offensive spells, i.e holy light, fire apoc, holy para, maybe daamge boost
Psycho Killa
10-02-04, 19:22
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
Have you all got your heads up your arses?
Have you even faught an APU l8ly?
I dont think ive died to a single lone apu in months, there dmg output is terrible now, compared to EVERY other class which has a boost bigger than mosts players ego..
Rofl 2 months???? Someones exagerating by about 6 weeks arent we?
They did insane fucking damage until 2 weeks ago buddy stop with the exageration.
This would be more of a boost then a nerf wake up!
Guys, theres ways to refine this idea.
For example, the reticle closes 2 times faster than those that use bullet weapons, if your within 25% of the maximum range of the spell (i.e. if the spell casts up to 100 meters then if your within 25 meters of the target) then your reticle can close all the way and you can deal out maximum damage. so if your within 1 to 25 meters.
If your 26 to 50 meters away from your target, then your reticle will not close all the way and you wont do maximum damage, your monk is concentrating on its target but the mental energy has to travel a greater distance which reduces the damage the spell does when it reaches its target. at this range, you can do high damage, but not your maximum damage.
if your 51 to 75 meters away, its the same thing as above, you do mid level damage
if your between 76 to 100 meters, you do low damage.
basically, the closer you are, the more damage you can do.
allow monks to be able to run cast their spells VERY easily, reduce the speed hit to their monk PA, increase the resists of the monk PA to reflect a holy shelter vest. you never miss cast unless your target is beyond the range of your spell (as it is, miss casts are lag related i believe) have their reticle close faster than those of us that use ammo weapons.
do not even bother try to compare this to other energy weapons.
would THIS make it acceptable?
Shadow Dancer
10-02-04, 20:56
Originally posted by Cyphor
I completely agree with this as it would be a major boost to the apu imo. Atm with random dmg and with the bug atm where i mostly hit lows, im finding it still playable, even if slightly frustrating. Now on the basis that a reticle is fully open and you do that dmg then i find it workable since alot of the time the reticle will close more, yes it wont be great for dueling situations, but imo apus arent designed as a dueling char. About the point of rarely getting a closed reticle, you should rarely do dmg to the insane highs a apu can. If i hit a tank for 150+ every time (around the value of a high hit from my experience) wouldn't that be too overpowered, but now giving the power to do this to the apu, then at least where you dont get a high you'll know why, rather than wondering why kk's arch angel of randomness is pissing on you from above, nothing in a game like this should be random, not slots not dmg, nothing. This game should be based on the skill of the player and point investment. And as a last point apus, would pwn more in pvm with it :p
Cyphor>u
Even though I hate ncf. :p
haha
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
I dont think ive died to a single lone apu in months, there dmg output is terrible now, compared to EVERY other class which has a boost bigger than mosts players ego.
hehe
The only thing i agree with, is that an apu will NOT win against a good devourer tank, if their fighting in close range. Anyways I think devourer is overpowered now. *gets flamed*
I don't think any class really has an easy kill against an apu, except some lib pes. Which is why i'm unsure about lib getting totally unnerfed, i think it might be overpowered if that happens.
FFS clown, you're getting me sidetracked. :D
Originally posted by shodanjr_gr
Didnt read thru the whole post, im bored. I just got a question for SD. How can u consider the HL to be fine at the moment??
A sheltered PE got shot with it 16 times and still had a tad of health left. Then he was shot 16 times with an energy beam and he also had a tad of health left (almost the same as before). Now the HL is 13 (i think) tls higher than energy beam, does that sound right?
Ok it might be overnerfed just a tad. But i'm just saying, the high damage spectrum seems to be ok. So if you have reticle and skills, you would be scoring high damage alot.
If there's no reticle however, HL needs a damage boost.
Originally posted by Swelly
APU's have been nerfed almost in every patch and
No they haven't. :confused:
Originally posted by Mr_Snow
Man the amount of monk whiners that come along whenever its suggested they have to aim.
If the HL got a reticle it would do high damage with a closed or near closed reticle but would do crap damage if it was open.
Thats not suggesting aim so stop crying about that.
It also means that if you take time before you start HL spamming that you will be guarenteed high end damage and this would make the HL strong again undoing the nerf.
Do the crybaby apus understand now?
Its not suggesting a nerf its suggesting a way of putting some sort of skill back into the class so it might be worth playing again since it wont be point and click anymore.
As for ppus no reticle because its hard enough to hit the right person in opwars with them as it is.
Yea you're totally right, you explained it well. Except for the crybaby part. :p
Originally posted by L0KI
I think its a fantastic idea to be honest - would really improve the way an APU has to be played.
Better player = Better damage
pwnd :D
5 stars btw
Exactly, how is this a "nerf"?
I barely see the difference between apu vs apus.
Originally posted by Strych9
No other class must have a 100% closed reticle to deal max damage.
Doesn't reticle judge how many bullets connect?
Wouldn't all bullets have to connect to deal max damage?
It could be something like this.
The tighter your reticle, the higher the chance of scoring high damage. If it's fully closed, it's a 100% chance of scoring max damage. If it's 3/4 closed, it's a 80% chance of scoring max damage.
Those are just random numbers, not what I think it should be. It's just to get the point across.
Originally posted by Strych9
APUs have crappy defense because their offense is uber. Or thats how it should be. Their spells already do random damage, which takes away from the uberness... but if you strap on a reticle, then I think it only fair that they get some other form of compensation.
A TL3 APU heal that they could cap would at least help.
Strych, under the current "COMPLETELY RANDOM" system, an apu doesn't always get max damage. GOOD apus are penalized, while bad apus can get lucky and r0x0r you if they get multiple "lucky" high random damage hits.
You know sometimes I have my crosshair on the target like 95% of the time, and hit all hits, yet it takes an enormous amount of hits to kill them. THat's because i UNLUCKILY scored low random damage multiple times. Rarely do I hit max damage all the time, or most of the time, yet I still kick major ass now.
So just because an apu wouldn't be able to get max damage all the time doesn't mean they would suck. Otherwise they would suck now, or always would have sucked. And we all know that's not true.
And anyways, I think apus are masters of PSI. Aggressive or not. So yes i agree they should get first level buffs(i mean resist boost, psi boost melee boost) and a TL 3 heal.
This system changes the damage from random, to being completely in the player's hands.
Clothing_Option
10-02-04, 21:03
Dude your a biright young person, however you have way too much free time on your hands. nuff said
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
A reticle would be a GOOD thing. See, IMO(and I know many apus will disagree), fire apoc and HL don't really need a damage boost. To me, they have the opposite problem that HL had pre-nerf. Pre-nerf HL often scored high random damage too many times and the "ceiling" for random damage was way too high.
FA had good damage, but the "floor"(:p) for random damage was too low and I felt that I would hit that too often. Hitting a PE 5 times with a capped FA and not even getting close to half health. Yes sometimes that happened.
Now if apu damage was based on reticle and how closed or open it was, then that would be different. That means if you keep getting low damage, it's not because it's random, it's because you suck. :D And you can always improve that. ;)
Now I wasn't sure if HL should have gotten a reticle before, because the max damage was too high. So if it was based on a reticle, then a skilled apu would be overpowered. But HL is no longer overpowered, so there's no need to worry about that any MO.
The "tighter" your reticle on the target is, the higher your damage range. And vice versa. It would be more skill based, like the other classes. It would be more fair as well. You could make it based on psi use and handling on spells.
Oh yea, and give apus TL 3 heal. Seriously now. :)
Hell, the reticle doesn't even have to be for all spells, maybe just beam spells.
Apus aren't like ppus, apus can be easy to balance. IMO at least.
But anyways, what do ya'll think?
Oh and if you disagree, please say why. :)
Originally posted by shodanjr_gr
And people telling that APUs can get behind cover in PvM....
Please remember that positioning urself in such a way that a mob can not hit you is an exploit.
Refrain from doing that. Shoot a grim while you are in his plain sight.
Become an APU toast....
That is a load of crap.
If a mob cant move to hit you its an exploit but if your standing behind a hill and shooting it and it can move to hit you its not an exploit.
TBH with this you would still hit everytime but your damage would go up if you are a better monk if you suck like alot of monks do atm your not going to get as much damage.
Theres no point comparing tank damage v monk damage atm because both have been fucked up in the last patch so its stupid to go and spout on about stuff that happened last patch since it will be changed when they get around to patching again.
this has been through the forums more than a few times shadow, so has the leech idea, just gets put down.
reticules dont work work for ppus for instance when they try and run cast the ret wont close and they will be fuxx0red, also apus would need to duck for barrels.
good idea, wrong system to implement it on matey.
no me gusta shadow
I die so fast as it is ,by the time the rectle closed i would be dead
Originally posted by ServeX
You want my opininon? Take out psis all together. Thats my opinion.
Wow someone who actually agrees with me :eek: :D
I'm kinda new here, but this is my opinion on it: I think it might actually be better for the APUs to have a reticle, but instead of making a certain size reticle correspond to a certain damage, make it correspond to a percentage of the possible random damage.
IE take enegy beam, it does 512-1772 enr damage according to neocron.ems.ru, making the possible damage range 1260. If you were to just point at a target and cast, the possible damage would be.... say 512-1772. However, as you are running around, keeping your reticle on the target, say the reticle goes down to 75% locked. Then, you might have a 15% reduction in the possible damage range (1260-189=1070), making to possible damage dealt 702-1772.
Of course, the percentages could, and probably should change, but I used those numbers just to give an idea. The percentage probably shouldn't go over 80 or 90%. Anyway, I think that would be best, but I'm just a n00b, so don't listen to me if you don't like it :D
Recticle should determin Range imo, not damage.
If you cast holy lighting at a Drom you can't actually see, it should fail unless you take the time to focus.
On the otherhand if you are attacking a Tsunami Sindicate Noob in his lift in pepper park 3 and you are in the street just outside then you shouldn't have to focus at all.
:angel:
This idea is excellent for apu monks if balanced correctly.
unerf their damage and tweak this idea and apus could be very balanced.
Its funny how monks think this is some sort of nerf. :lol:
I guess they dont realize it would take the randomness (as said by many others) out of being an apu and put the dmg dealt into the hands of the player.
And for the people who says "monks are the weakest!!" you need a reality check. A spy has 5 LESS CON AND CAN ONLY WEAR BATTLE ARMOR 3!!!! (not taking into consideration a capped spy can use a butchered imp setup for str...which is rare). Not to mention their weapons do less dmg and their highest TL ones are nearly impossible to cap. Yet they have to use a reticule....just like everyone else.
And if all you monks think people run around in PVP with their ret. 50% closed all the time and deal max dmg (IE hit with every round of a burst) you are HORRIBLY mistaken.
PS- Has anyone tried to hit someone moving around with a first love at 75% closed reticule..? Your lucky to get 1 round on target. Same goes for a tank.
Originally posted by StrongSad
Its funny how monks think this is some sort of nerf. :lol:
I guess they dont realize it would take the randomness (as said by many others) out of being an apu and put the dmg dealt into the hands of the player.
And for the people who says "monks are the weakest!!" you need a reality check. A spy has 5 LESS CON AND CAN ONLY WEAR BATTLE ARMOR 3!!!! (not taking into consideration a capped spy can use a butchered imp setup for str...which is rare). Not to mention their weapons do less dmg and their highest TL ones are nearly impossible to cap. Yet they have to use a reticule....just like everyone else.
And if all you monks think people run around in PVP with their ret. 50% closed all the time and deal max dmg (IE hit with every round of a burst) you are HORRIBLY mistaken.
PS- Has anyone tried to hit someone moving around with a first love at 75% closed reticule..? Your lucky to get 1 round on target. Same goes for a tank.
Spys get stealth. I chased a stealthing rifle spy over a zone for an hour. If he'd been an APU, he'd have been dead in seconds.
And monks get rare AOE weapons, rare poison weapons, good armor. And stealth is only used for running, so dont say it balances a spy....
Shadow Dancer
10-02-04, 23:35
Originally posted by StrongSad
And monks get rare AOE weapons, rare poison weapons, good armor. And stealth is only used for running, so dont say it balances a spy....
PLEASE PLEASE let's not turn this into another spy vs apu thread.
Thanks.
Originally posted by REMUS
this has been through the forums more than a few times shadow, so has the leech idea, just gets put down.
reticules dont work work for ppus for instance when they try and run cast the ret wont close and they will be fuxx0red, also apus would need to duck for barrels.
good idea, wrong system to implement it on matey.
I suggested it only for apu beam spells.
KramerTheWeird
11-02-04, 01:01
People are saying we don't have to have closed reticles to deal 100% damage with weapons, well you're wrong.
Very few weapons are true single shot.. even ones that seem to shoot one beam (raygun, laser) are actually multiple shots. As the reticle closes on a target, you get a better chance of all those shots hitting. A liberator gets it's best chance of all 4 shots hitting if the reticle is completely closed obviously, so in effect if it's not too closed and only 3 shots hit we only deal 75% of potential damage, or if only one hit we deal 25% of potential. Not only that but weapons have the chance of completely missing, even at closed reticle (with some weapons). Having a very open reticle while firing a raygun will almost always have only one shot hit (if that), and that's only 50% damage.
The way an APU reticle would work would be similar to how the pistols do now.. pistols even while running keep a relatively tight close on aiming, except when there is recoil. The momment you crouch it closes instantly if you are within close range of the target. If you have ever heard comparisons of pistol Spy's to APU's well this is a perfect example. You can effectively keep all your tactics the same as an APU user with a reticle if they are adjusted properly to behave like or better than pistols. Range and damage are similar as it is now so it would only mean adjusting target focusing (how much the reticle opens when you switch to another target).
Actually Kramer, APUs would have it better than a burst pistol.
A burst pistol, e.g. Liberator, does not deal 25% damage if only one bullet hits, due to burst bonus. Each additional shot has a greater chance of missing (28% I think) but deals 20% more damage. Every other burst weapon has 28% extra damage but it was nerfed on the Lib a while ago. It was nerfed because it was believed to cause the problem with yo-yo health - at the time people referred to it as the piercing bug because it was most noticable with piercing weapons, i.e. the Lib. Nobody realised it was actually the high RoF which caused it.
Anyway, burst bonus is the reason why 3 CS hits will do 60 damage to a target while 4 will deal 100 (example numbers, I can't be bothered to work out precise ones, but you get the idea - it's not linear).
Ray and laser weapons are the opposite, they have beam bonus. IIRC each additional 'shot' deals 10% less damage but has a 10% greater chance of hitting. This is why often with a raygun the first beam misses yet the second one hits. It's also the reason why laser rifles have always been fairly weak - they were balanced before the beam/burst bonus, but afterwards burst weapons became much more powerful in terms of maximum damage output.
APUs will not have to worry about this, because they fire in single shots. So they will effectively have raygun aiming, which is actually fairly easy aiming, and IMO about right for APUs. To get full damage they will have to lock the reticle fully, which means at absolute maximum range they'll deal a little less damage, so I would suggest giving them a minor range boost at the same time to offset this (with a fairly open reticle they'll probably be dealing less damage than the spies they're targetting ;)).
KramerTheWeird
11-02-04, 04:01
Ah I didn't consider burst bonus, so instead of one bullet being 25% damage total it can be say only 10%. Good points and only reinforces my statement.
@ shadow..
I was just commenting on the statement that "monks are the weakest class".
And Scikar. Awsome points. I dont see why apus would not like this. I would love it on my apu, as long as the circle closed fairly fast, which would balance it out for hunting mobs.
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