View Full Version : Stealth
As I have been reading lately there are still many complains about the use of stealth from certain classes, specialy with the intentions of making it an annoying weapon rather than an ambushing tool or a 'get-away'.
The use of stealth in this game in first place is quite limited, you cant de-stealth at will unless you use drugs, which makes the higher level tools less desirable for most combat situations and useful only in certain enviroments.
What I suggest is a couple of changes in the way to operate stealth tools (hope it can be coded) to a) increase the advantages of higher level stealths and b) eliminate that 'cheesy' use of people that attack and inmediately re-stealth.
First change
- It consists in a timer added between stealths only when a weapon has been pulled out.
If the desire of the player is to not engage in combat he wont pull out a weapon, therefore the use of stealth will be unlimited (as it is now) to get away. The stealth tool is remodeled now as a tactical weapon or get-away tool.
If the will of the player is attacking, once he is de-stealthed he will pull out his weapon to attack the enemy; in this moment a timer starts "[insert time to re-stealth here]", time that will be reduced as higher is the level of the stealth tool. The stealth tool is remodeled now as an ambush weapon.
*If the player wants to run-way he will have unlimited use.
**If the player wants to fight, he will pull out a weapon and wont be able to re-stealth for [xxx] ammount of time since he pulled the weapon.
Second Change
- Pulling out a weapon makes the player to de-stealth.
At first I was reluctant to introduce this idea... but after reading Callash' thoughts and the decrease of steath time in all the tools, I started to think in the real reason of people using low level stealths over their higher TL counterparts.
Basically the lower stealth tools act more like a tactical combat weapon, allow you to use it to change position and break the lock of your oponent without giving him enought time to heal or get away. The result of this is everyone, even spies, having in their belts stealth I-II tools for a better use, while spies gimping themselves to use stealth III or Obliterator are relegated to a second use, and still need those stealth I-II in their belts.
With the first idea the abuse of stealth I is already removed, but the introduction of an essential advantage of higher TL stealths over the lower ones is still necessary.
I come with this idea to encourage a different solution than the others proposed before. I use stealth III in my spy, and could use Obliterator... as a spy that relies quite a lot in his stealth I can assure that the solutions proposed above wont 'nerf' or weaken the right use of the tools, but will put an end to all the current problems.
/note: Stealth tools are considered in the game mechanics as weapons, this should be re-coded in order of this ideas to work.
QuantumDelta
08-02-04, 17:14
Best Stealth Change idea I've seen.
Five Stars.
'Nuff said.
wow....I like it. That wouldn't change the way I use steath at all, but would curb the whiners and the lamers.
Although it is kinda funny standing behind someone waiting for stealth to wear off, watching them look for me....:D
NS_CHROME54
08-02-04, 17:38
i like it :)
I am still sorta new to the game, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
If I am out hunting and all my concentration is on the MOB I am fighting (with my weapon out shooting) and I am jumped by a few enemy... what am I supposed to do?
The stealth at this point is my only defense as a rifle spy, I don't use drugs since I can't stand that drug haze, I did read somewhere that there was a work around but I don't want to use an exploit... I don't use Str imps because I need all the dex I can get for better weapons at this point. At most OP fights I take up a position somewhere and try to snipe, if I am found I am usually dead before I can switch to my stealth and activate it (depending on who found me),
Srry but unless they give Spy's some method of survivability at close range combat then I am against any change to Stealth that would adversly affect Spys. It is a joke even on these boards how weak Spys are and I believe that is why they added stealth to help the survivability of Spys, not that it helps that much for us, and the fact that they attempted to raise High Tech combat on it so that the PEs would have a tougher time using it I believe shows that they intended it to be mostly a tool for spys.
Heck, some clan mates where messing around at an OP today testing damage out on each other and one of them (a HC tank) took me down with one burst from his weapon (it wasn't the flamethrower either) and I am a 51/59 spy... I am wearing the best armor I can given my stats and the best imps I can get at this point... and still one burst and I am on my back. He then put another spy who was higher level than me on his back in one burst...
I just don't see it, maybe someone can explain to me what the problem is? At OP Wars I don't see stealthers causing much problems, it is usually tanks and monks running amok and if a Spy is spotted he is ignored (not much of a threat) or taken down fast (easy target)... don't take away one of our main defenses without giving us another.
Just my opinion...
Estabin, if I read this idea correctly, there's a timer which starts every time you draw your weapon, which invokes a delay before you can stealth again.
If you've already been hunting for a while, and thus had your weapon out for a while, you wouldn't run into any problems, since the timer would have ended already.
I'm very impressed with this idea. 5 stars (respect, only stealth thread I've given stars to :p).
Some arse will probably come along soon and say "OMG STEALTH FOR T3H SPIEZ ONLY!!!!1!!!!1!!111oneoneone" which really will ruin this well thought out thread.
Funny that there are 3 'no' votes, but none of them has dared post. I wonder why? :rolleyes:
why cant they just put 10 seconds between every stealth activation? this way people coulndnt stealth over and over and might actually die once a month.... its easy and fiar change.
QuantumDelta
08-02-04, 19:10
Originally posted by J. Folsom
Estabin, if I read this idea correctly, there's a timer which starts every time you draw your weapon, which invokes a delay before you can stealth again.
If you've already been hunting for a while, and thus had your weapon out for a while, you wouldn't run into any problems, since the timer would have ended already. That's how I read it as well.
When you vote no, people, State reasons.
Psycho Killa
08-02-04, 19:27
Anyone who voted no is a stealthwhore and thats that.
hehe I voted No because I am selfish and I like my idea better even if my idea is worse! ^_^ I have never used Stealth in Neocron but once!
Psycho Killa
08-02-04, 19:31
Lol but voting no wont get your idea any more attention it will just make one more players idea be overlooked by the devs.
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Lol but voting no wont get your idea any more attention it will just make one more players idea be overlooked by the devs.
Your right.. I don't think my idea needs any attention this person is good but like I said I am selfish so I voted no :P
Lifewaster
08-02-04, 20:34
Too complex imo , too much messing with different timers for different situations with 4 different stealth tools.
Gotta be a simpler fix than this.
Like, when a stealth ends for whatever reason, a drug effect timer appears as does when drugging out of stealth anyway, this timer is longest for stealth 1 and tiny for Oblib, and untill the timer ends your weapons and stealth tools stay red as when u were stealthed.
simple.... you stealth in combat, giving an advantage, stealth ends, your now at a disadvantage untill you can stealth/fight again etc...this disadvantage is shortest for the best stealth tool.
This would make oblib better as it would just have a split second of weakness between stealths, but would render pretty useless anyone trying to use stealth 1 for other than pure escape.
It would also eliminate the need for multiple stealth tools as using your single best tool would always be better.
Psycho Killa
08-02-04, 20:50
Uh i dunno it doesnt seem complex in the slightest to me o_O
Lifewaster
08-02-04, 20:57
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Uh i dunno it doesnt seem complex in the slightest to me o_O
Well for example, he has all 4 stealth tools in his belt , he pull's a weapon, now suddenly he has 4 different timers running , for each of the different TL tools . Thats messy imo. Whatever is done should only put one timer on the screen . And there are easier ways to do something about stealth.
Ozambabbaz
08-02-04, 21:02
no
it's fine
adapt
Shadow Dancer
08-02-04, 21:05
FANTASTIC idea slewer.
Absolutely fantastic.
Psycho Killa
08-02-04, 21:35
Originally posted by Ozambabbaz
no
it's fine
adapt
Adapt to what if I dont want to die on my stealthing pe guess what I almost never ever ever will die.
Holy true sight sanctum sucks ass.
Follow someone around wow that helps! Especialy when half a second later they can restealth.
This isnt taking stealth away from people for ambushing or running away purposes its keeping people from stealthing shooting stealthing shooting stealthing shooting which is just lame and extremely hard to combat if you dont have the most aware ppu strapped to your ass.
Adapt.... sounds like the same thing overpowered hybrid and overpowered ppus said that there was magical ways to kill them :rolleyes:
Seems the idea got a good approval after all, I understand the arguments against it anyway (the ones posted that's it).
My main worry is that I dont know if this can be coded. If it is possible to fit with the current stealth system in Neocron then it would be less messy or complex than some of you are thinking.
The idea is giving to the stealth tools a proper ranking, making always more useful stealth III over II and over I. With this you no longer would need to wear 4 stealth tools in the belt, just one, the highest TL you can use.
Once you are de-stealthed to attack and pull the weapon the timer starts, then your stealth tools turn red for the [xxx] ammount of time each. I dont really see a mess with timers unless KK really wants to mess it. I explain down:
At the moment when you activate a stealth tool your weapons turn red, they are red for the ammount of time that each stealth tool provides. Think inverse now, you pull the weapon and the stealth tool is red for the ammount of time set when you first pulled your weapon
Look I'm trying to drop a middle point between those that want stealth for safety and those that use it as a tactical weapon. Doing this while eliminating the abuse of the tools and providing a greater advantage for higher TL stealths is my goal, the root of the thread and the main idea. There are solutions that might sound easier, simpler and faster; but those solutions are not valid for everyone.
Hope I explained myself better now.
Lifewaster
08-02-04, 22:16
Originally posted by Sleawer
At the moment when you activate a stealth tool your weapons turn red, they are red for the ammount of time that each stealth tool provides. Think inverse now, you pull the weapon and the stealth tool is red for the ammount of time set [b]when you first pulled your weapon
Hope I explained myself better now.
Yes at the basic level it is a good idea, but it is complex coding to add this as an effect for pulling guns.
Also, would mean swapping from gun to a booster spell, then back would restart the timer.
The current stealth simply turns everything red, armor also :p , for the duration it is on... its just a one timer fixed to the stealth tool activated which has a single effect of turn all items red.
Your plan is going to be very hard to implement I just think, if pulling a gun needs to turn up to 4 different tools red with a different timer each, while not making anything else red etc.
My suggestion is still just make everything that already turns red when you stealth, simply remain red for a bit longer after you come out. They can do this quite simply, by just making you be visible for the last few seconds of a stealth, yet still have the red effects etc. So wouldnt require any degree of complexity.
hmm, I like Lifewaster idea of adding time when you are just destealthed, but cannot use a weapon yet.
I like concept of destealthing by simply pulling weapon out.
But here i my general concept : add timer after every state change:
- After you stealthed you cannot pop out (timer). Therefore you can attack visible and withdraw if something goes wrong. Or travel visible and escape ganking.
- After you destealthed you cannot restealth (timer). You can surprise attack from the back but you have to win or you're dead.
This conception leaves question if stealh should ever end by itself open. I don't see any problems with guy being stealthed for several hours. But max stealth time like 3, 5, 10, 20 _minutes_ should be also ok and will add more variety between tools.
Ozambabbaz
08-02-04, 23:10
i just don't see the problem with stealth, sure it's very annoying getting hit by someone who stealths as soon as you whip your weapon out, but hey, if that's the tactic, at least the victim won't die.
As i see, you've got a TC-PE, PK, you'd know _sometimes_ the stealth tool doesn't reactivate, and also that prolonged use triggers drug haze, there are viable ways to combat this.
For example, TC-Spies and TC-PE's are very good stealth hunters, this would actually give these guys a "speciality" *shock*. As it is now, Tanks and Monks got the battlefield mainstay.
As i read Sleawer's ideas, they seem excellent, well thought off and balanced. But they'd also prevent me attacking 5+ hostiles and giving most spies the blow.
Using it as a harassment tool, i think is a very viable tactics, sure it isn't noble or anything, but isn't this Cyberpunk?
For the guys who say stealthwhores etc, many of them seem to be fan of The Bigger Bat-theory.
Psycho Killa
08-02-04, 23:14
Exactly your a spy you think your should be able to easily attack 5+ hostiles by yourself o_O
This would only prevent you from attacking and quickly stealthing off.
You can still use stealth to ambush and escape you just cant use it to hit stealth hit stealth hit stealth which makes it impossible for some classes to do anything except die.
Even the classes that can compete have an extremely hard time against a stealther who has an in over 30.
Originally posted by Lifewaster
Well for example, he has all 4 stealth tools in his belt , he pull's a weapon, now suddenly he has 4 different timers running , for each of the different TL tools . Thats messy imo. Whatever is done should only put one timer on the screen . And there are easier ways to do something about stealth.
O also you would only need the best stealth tool in your inventory because you can unstealth at any time by drawing your weapon according to part 2 of his idea.
Ozambabbaz
08-02-04, 23:21
Easily, lol no :D and mostly the succes would be drawing the attention, and messing enemy ranks up, mind you i don't do this to anyone enemy i see, i still hope most hostiles respect for the fact that i just don't piss people off to piss them off, only using it as tactics, in war, with my clan.
About the spies, i know a few who use Kami chips, these guys don't survive for long when spotted, and i'll happily say it again, if you can't combat a stealther, don't PvP.
Sure, as you point out, some get the boot, in other instances, other classes get the boot against other set-ups, why's it wrong here?
I quite like this but I'd want to see it in practice to test the exact effect of different timer lengths.
I'd still just like to see Stealth 3 and Obliterator un-fucked though. With them as they are now I'm having real difficulty justifying any T-C over my weapons. I'll probably be LoMing any surplus T-C in the next day or two and put the tools in my "are KK mad?" cabinet.
wrt Lifewaster's alternative- really, really, really bad idea.
You still should be able to take 5+ persons; unless I'm miscalculating my own theory the re-stealth time shouldnt last much, just enought to force you to decide if you want to pull out the weapon and fight or remain stealthed to get a better chance.
This idea should not affect those that pull out a weapon and decide to fight, but those that pull it and as soon as they get shot draw the tool again and re-stealth. If you are willing to kill 5+ persons you need to be unstealthed enought time to harm them anyway, so the timer most likely would have expired when you decide to re-stealth before killing the next.
At same time I wanted to cover the fact that some people want the tool to spy, or to move around safely scouting... this idea would provide those the chance to do this without worrying about any timer.
Precisely the timers in stealth tools were reduced to encourage more the use of stealth III and Obliterator, and those that want to spy will have to time better their re-stealths (with the current retail times). Well while I dont agree with the stealth times being reduced I agree with the overall concept, that's the first reason why I started this thread...
I have to agree however that most of the changes proposed in stealth are more directed to situations of PE's and Spies with bizarre inq setups... well any "nerf" (I mean nerf) in stealth should be coupled with an improvement of the Spy defence IMO. Sure we can use inquision1 armors (I personally do), but at a price that some others dont want and dont have to pay.... and stealth affects all of us (spies) alike. This is the second reason for what I have started the thread; I didnt like the currently proposed solutions.
Bare in mind that the idea is raw, unpolished, and wouldnt be fair to take it literally.
Dont forget either that the idea of "enforcing" the right use of the stealth tool, which is setting a timer when you decide to fight (e.g. pull out a weapon), comes coupled with an improvement to "help" the stealthing spy/pe to really decide when is the moment to attack... it is being able to de-stealth at will.
To me this is much more important than being able to re-stealth 100 times in a row, it's just my opinion tho.
@Jernau... I agree, not even sure if it can be coded but if it could, then it should be tested extensively.
*looks above* I need to explain it better step-by-step:
- Each stealth tool sets a timer when used.
- This timer is shorter as you use higher TL stealth tools.
- Once you draw a weapon the timer set by the stealth tool starts running.
- You cannot re-stealth again until the timer finishes.
- Stealth tools are no longer coded as weapons, so you can draw again the tool and re-stealth.
- The timer is only set if you activate the stealth tool, so drawing a weapon itself wont set any timer.
- You can de-stealth by drawing a weapon (the timer starts running).
I think it's very simplist.. not sure if I made myself clear.
QuantumDelta
09-02-04, 05:12
PK Change your name to QD :p
As usual the man has spoken, and taken the words out of my mouth.
Abuse of the Stealth tool needs to stop.
Period.
Originally posted by Lifewaster
Yes at the basic level it is a good idea, but it is complex coding to add this as an effect for pulling guns.
Oh is it now? Care to explain how? Because it seems pretty simple to me.
The main thing that stealth needs is more ways to force stealthers out of stealth (as usual only monks can do this) and maybe a way of "dying" a stealther so even if hes in stealth he can be seen from a distance.
Personally I dont like the start the timer when a weapon is drawn idea just put a timer from when stealth is over, anyway this wouldnt work amazingly well because stealth is classed as a weapon by the engine so you just pull it out to activate the timer which would end up the same as just adding a timer.
What a wonderful idea.
Would help to get finally rid of all those stealth whores who fire 1 shot, then stealth and run, then repeat.
5 stars
best idea ive seen for stealth...shit if this went in, i might actually use stealth...right now i dont use it cuz it's a pussy ass way to fight...almost die and stealth out...pussy
5 stars...really nice ideas
I would prefer a complete renovation to Stealth.
Official Neocron Forum > CityCom [Member Area] > Brainport > Stealth Change!! :) (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&postid=1211581#post1211581)
I'd like there to be a suit. Very light-weight and fragile suit covering the whole of a body, looking like a PowerArmor.
Surgically connected to your body.
- No stealth timer. There would be a stealth toggle.
- Cannot equip any item, or you'll disrupt the cloak.
- Can not be targetted but people may still hit you. Once they hit you, the suit is disturbed and de-cloaks.
Running, being shot at and cloaking - Maybe include a short timer for anti-damage (to allow escape easier without instant de-cloak disruption)
Lana DarkWolf
09-02-04, 14:25
Good idea - may finally shut some people up moaning about stealth especially PE use anyway.
I only ever use stealth if someone trys to pk me (while hunting or something) in Pvp if im about to die.....fair do's they killed me - just means hunting for poker time :eek:
Lana DarkWolf
09-02-04, 14:27
erm i was referring to the thread idea, one above i aint too sure about yet........:p
QuantumDelta
09-02-04, 15:24
Originally posted by Mr_Snow
The main thing that stealth needs is more ways to force stealthers out of stealth (as usual only monks can do this) and maybe a way of "dying" a stealther so even if hes in stealth he can be seen from a distance.
Personally I dont like the start the timer when a weapon is drawn idea just put a timer from when stealth is over, anyway this wouldnt work amazingly well because stealth is classed as a weapon by the engine so you just pull it out to activate the timer which would end up the same as just adding a timer. Maybe a TAG (Target Acquisition and Guidence) system could do that.
A weapon does no damage but "lights up" your target, can be used tactically quite well;
Op fights - Player can highlight priority targets and tell a team to focus on one target simply by firing a gun.
Stealther - allows players to follow Stealther but not kill.
Ozambabbaz
09-02-04, 15:28
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Maybe a TAG (Target Acquisition and Guidence) system could do that.
A weapon does no damage but "lights up" your target, can be used tactically quite well;
Op fights - Player can highlight priority targets and tell a team to focus on one target simply by firing a gun.
Stealther - allows players to follow Stealther but not kill.
That sounds neat...odd o_O
Someone suggested for the Oblit to be able to see other stealthers, i liked that too
Seems like a well thought out comprehensive idea. Quite viable.
Its a good idea, the only part I dont like is when the stealther takes out a weapon he unstealths. I understnad it makes it an ambush tool but I still dont like that part.
Some idea like this should be implemented, because stealth is way too easy to use in a fight. But ONLY if PPUs / freeze are fixed. Spies and PEs would be fucked completely if stealth is nerfed but PPUs aren't.
@Rimase - if stealth dropped on damage to user no-one would use it at all as a) lag often lets hits through in the first few seconds, b) anyone with half a brain would just AoE to uncloak you and c) Plasma would reveal stealthers. You've also got DoT ticks and mobs that can still see you.
In other words - you'd never keep it on for more than 2 seconds that way.
the idea is pretty nice.
maybe stealth 1 = lasts ten seconds but 10 second delay afetr
stealth 2 = lasts 20 seconds and 10 second deay after
stealth 3 = lasts 30 seconds and has 5 second delay
stealth 4 = 60 seconds and 4 secodn delay after.
i am a PE btw not a spy
this would mean pes could stealth in combat but if u folow him as soon as he pops out of stealth u have a chance to kill the bugger.
stealth 1 adn 2 have same delay because (with gimpage) u can use 1 and 2 (i think u can still use 2)
the stealths 3 and 4 are for spys and qould suit the spys role as a spy and a sniper better. plus in general u need les time to killa spy so u still have a chance to kill em at lvl 4 stealth.
only thing u cant use for the delay after u unstealth is the stealth tool. can simply be conciderd as a recharge time.
this would allow u to use steath in combat but stop the over and over hit and run attacks meaning tanks cant kill PE's useing stealth whore tactics as PE is all healed etc after a few stealths.
just my thoughts
QuantumDelta
10-02-04, 01:20
Originally posted by Klyne
Seems like a well thought out comprehensive idea. Quite viable. SASUKE!!!
Sorry, I had to.
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