View Full Version : Monk range - but seriously...
MjukisDjur
05-02-04, 13:57
Is it just me or is this fucking incredible anoying:
Before patches my fire halo had a range of about 300m. Good for attracting mobs and finnish them with a decent spell. Now the same damn spell have a range of 178m. But comon ffs... Is there no end of this? 178m is nothing out in the wastes. HL range I can understand the nerfage but this is a stupid halo.... :mad:
Anyone else got this? I have lomed the char and experimented but the difference shouldnt be that big. Might as well reroll the damn char.
Angry Mjukis
Monks shouldnt be able to snipe which halos allowed them to do and its not as if halos dont hurt, admittedly its not as bad as beams were.
Originally posted by Mr_Snow
Monks shouldnt be able to snipe which halos allowed them to do and its not as if halos dont hurt, admittedly its not as bad as beams were.
Why not? Spies and PEs can snipe, and they have more defense than monks and now do more damage than monks. Why should the class with least defense be forced to fight in close range?
Originally posted by Nysh
Why not? Spies and PEs can snipe, and they have more defense than monks and now do more damage than monks. Why should the class with least defense be forced to fight in close range?
well youre talking like theyve been reduced to melee range.......178 is still a good distance........pistoleers dont even have that much range.........
Check the patch 163 notes - APUs are supposed to be medium range fighters, with an effective range similar to that of tanks. Try hitting anything with a CS at 300m.
Originally posted by Scikar
Check the patch 163 notes - APUs are supposed to be medium range fighters, with an effective range similar to that of tanks. Try hitting anything with a CS at 300m.
not that I disagree, but the ravager is sick at long ranges..........and altho just slightly less dmg over time could easily tender up whatever youre shooting til whatever gets into CS range =)
Originally posted by Nysh
Why not? Spies and PEs can snipe, and they have more defense than monks and now do more damage than monks. Why should the class with least defense be forced to fight in close range?
Riflers can snipe, pistoleers cant, and unless they failed to fix damage on rifles and pistols they dont outdamage monks.
What game do you play out of curiousity that you think spies have a better defense then monks either apu or ppu?
heh .. I think range is good but only cause I played in beta and had spell ranges of 40-60m . . . I was thankful for a lazar rifle to aggro doomies off the cliffs of TG :p
Originally posted by Mr_Snow
Riflers can snipe, pistoleers cant, and unless they failed to fix damage on rifles and pistols they dont outdamage monks.
What game do you play out of curiousity that you think spies have a better defense then monks either apu or ppu?
not to chime in out of place here but spies do have better defense than an APU hands down.......first off and foremost stealth should always be considered when talking in terms of defense..........secondly 20 more STR than monks means advanced/gamma bones/possibly exp bones if u opt for max STR.....can drug for shelter......and heal/sanctum APUs have no healing abilities........
Yeah stealth is brilliant against mobs.
Yeah spies can use drug to shelter but so can monks if they throw in a few psi points and isnt a gimpage to tradeskills if thats what they want to do and apus not only have the best armour in the game they can use heavy belts and they have things called medkits, which are underpowered but exist, that you can heal yourself with and also monks dont need line of sight theres no better defense then not being hit or have the possibility of being hit.
TBH with hybrids being un-nerfed I really dont see why you dont have even a tl 3 heal.
Oh and spies have to gimp their damage to use exp bones or inq armour and then still have to drug another thing other classes dont have to do to use decent armour
MjukisDjur
05-02-04, 14:46
Originally posted by Scikar
Check the patch 163 notes - APUs are supposed to be medium range fighters, with an effective range similar to that of tanks. Try hitting anything with a CS at 300m.
Tanks got alternatives. We have nothing that goes over 200m.
Mr snow, you usually got problems with monks sniping you with a halo??
Yeah stealth is brilliant against mobs.
ok smartass =)
Yeah spies can use drug to shelter but so can monks if they throw in a few psi points and isnt a gimpage to tradeskills if thats what they want to do and apus not only have the best armour in the game they can use heavy belts and they have things called medkits, which are underpowered but exist, that you can heal yourself with and also monks dont need line of sight theres no better defense then not being hit or have the possibility of being hit.
scenario silent hunter spy 400m out against a APU with HL.....nuff said who needs LOS when u got range apus cant hit u anyways......
Oh and spies have to gimp their damage to use exp bones or inq armour and then still have to drug another thing other classes dont have to do to use decent armour
APUs would have to gimp theyre damage to use a TL3 heal......same situation.....
Originally posted by MjukisDjur
Tanks got alternatives. We have nothing that goes over 200m.
Mr snow, you usually got problems with monks sniping you with a halo??
Storm lasers and TT epic lasers arent exactly brilliant but the new plasma wave seems fairly good but havent used it.
And it was actually becoming more common for monks to use halos because of higher RoF to beams and rares and because of the range advantage so kinda but I havent been on since the patch and not a lot before that.
1: Melee
3: Non-Teck Pistols
4: Heavy Weapons
5: Teck Pistols
6: Psi
7: non-Teck Rifles
8: Teck Rifles
Aww come on, your 6/8! Thats awesome range!
Don't complain.
MjukisDjur
05-02-04, 15:05
The thing is that I only want something with good range without need of a non tech rifle. I dont care if it does 10 damage, I only want the mobs attention. And dont tell me to put points in rc. I need my runspeed :)
Mendicant rifle = 12 RC
Lazar rifle = 5 RC
Wont fuck up your runspeed much if even if you stick in a RC eye.
Originally posted by extract
scenario silent hunter spy 400m out against a APU with HL.....nuff said who needs LOS when u got range apus cant hit u anyways......
Meh sniper spies die pretty fast up close and all you have to do as an apu is run behind a tree and your fine
Originally posted by extract
APUs would have to gimp theyre damage to use a TL3 heal......same situation.....
7 skill points will do fuck all to your damage or RoF so I dont see how its close to using 3 of 5 dex imp slots for str for gimpage.
wish monks had a spell that you didn't have to aim to shoot .. you just fire and it flys for a long distance till it hits something anddoes a small AoE hit . . . like a Brimestone Spell that shoots and explodes on impact .. then you can just fire off at a mob and get it's attention . .. would mostly be useful for mob fighting . or I guess annoying people standing in a group :p
7 skill points... sigh.... wish some people thought twice what they post.
Originally posted by Benjie
1: Melee
3: Non-Teck Pistols
4: Heavy Weapons
5: Teck Pistols
6: Psi
7: non-Teck Rifles
8: Teck Rifles
Aww come on, your 6/8! Thats awesome range!
Don't complain.
er what happened to number 2 ?
thats bollocks and you know it
if you take the best weapon (not some shit that has range but no damage) for each class it would read more like this
1:melee
2:non-tech pistols (but how many of these are their libby caps at 90m?)
3:APU HL 134m i think
4:tech pistols
5: tanks 480m on ravager i believe
6: non tech rifles PE 500m
7: tech rifles silent hunter and/or insanely boosted healing light 1200metres
now in defence capabilities
1: APU
2: Rifler
3: Tank
4: PE
Originally posted by Sleawer
7 skill points... sigh.... wish some people thought twice what they post.
Why you dont need to cap it and your mst and ppw are there already so what didnt I think of, anyway ppw adds a shit load of damage on low TL spells so with the bare reqs you should get fairly decent damage and what its 2 apu at high level so what exactly did I fail to think of?
Keep saying yourself that.. maybe it will become true... in your mind.
Btw my spy has to eat one drug to use that armor yes :( but he's not a gimp, he caps all rifles and uses stealth 3.
/edit: I agree with that list Stig, it seems to have more sense.
//edit: sorry Mr. Snow, didnt read that you were asking for what you missed.
Take a look at apu/ppu chips and PA's, see what they negatives are like.
UNNERF THE APU
Before they all re-roll to PE's :eek:
(Yes it does say PPU in my sig, coz I lommed from the sucky apu)
it shouldn't be as bad to use a ppu spell on a apu now should it? . .. they changed the penalty for having both fromwhat was it 20 to 5 didn't they? I haven't messed with it so I have no clue
Its been changed from a 30% penalty to a 5% penalty so its basically been removed as a penalty monks are only pissed cos the reqs for weapons have gone up and HL was reduced in damage accidentaly which will be fixed eventually.
Well if the chips and PA didnt take -60 in the opposite skill by themselves I would agree with that... and not wearing them is almost as bad so...
No apu's cant use ppu modules, those are hybrids, and the benefit of being hybrid (if there is any) starts when you use the blessed part of it.
/edit: and the new req's in the psi modules are not as bad as everyone thought in fact, just should need a little more thought than before in making setup's (and a psi skill points release IMO). Wish I could use the test server to make a guide throught the leveling, but loms are broken yet.
CQFA range got cut in half for the 195 patch, the stacks also seem to drop faster, that an APUs best defence againist stealthers, now it sucks :(
But APUs get no recticle - they only have ot hold target long enough to click their mouse button and then they hit the target - even if they go behind a wall and out of sight. All other classes have to maintain lock and maintain line of sight.
If APUs want this 'unnerf' then they MUST get reticle as well IMO.
Originally posted by Sleawer
Well if the chips and PA didnt take -60 in the opposite skill by themselves I would agree with that... and not wearing them is almost as bad so...
No apu's cant use ppu modules, those are hybrids, and the benefit of being hybrid (if there is any) starts when you use the blessed part of it.
Hybrids get removed - you then start whinign about how PAUs can't use heal without bad nerfing - now KK make it possible for you to use heal again without major nerfage - you're still bloody whining.
APUs can use heal - yes they'll lose an amount of damage / range - but that's a price you pay. It's a choice you can make. Make it!
Athon Solo
Originally posted by Mr_Snow
Its been changed from a 30% penalty to a 5% penalty so its basically been removed as a penalty monks are only pissed cos the reqs for weapons have gone up and HL was reduced in damage accidentaly which will be fixed eventually.
when was HL nerfed accidently ?
http://www.cpcug.net/images/bullshit.jpg
the intentionally fucked with the range when everyone was bitching
Originally posted by Sleawer
Well if the chips and PA didnt take -60 in the opposite skill by themselves I would agree with that... and not wearing them is almost as bad so...
No apu's cant use ppu modules, those are hybrids, and the benefit of being hybrid (if there is any) starts when you use the blessed part of it.
Bleh sorry forgot about the stupid attack chips and PAs
Originally posted by athon
But APUs get no recticle - they only have ot hold target long enough to click their mouse button and then they hit the target - even if they go behind a wall and out of sight. All other classes have to maintain lock and maintain line of sight.
If APUs want this 'unnerf' then they MUST get reticle as well IMO.
Athon Solo
i would not mind gettng a recticle, if the spells, range dmg was all put back as it was.
i am very much against LOS for APU's after all they are summoning lightning from the sky not firing it from their ass
Originally posted by stigmata
when was HL nerfed accidently ?
http://www.cpcug.net/images/bullshit.jpg
the intentionally fucked with the range when everyone was bitching
Originally posted by Thanatos
HL was indeed reduced in damage. As far as I know this was unintentional and will be rectified.
Range was reduced because it was too large but damage was reduced accidentally.
Can I ask monks what exactly do they want?
Old over powered hybrids back?
A sniping spell that can kill anything in 2 seconds?
A law that ppus cant die or if not that all their slots being safeslots?
Man most of the threads are monk bitchs these days because KK is trying to stop them from being the uber and most played class.
Originally posted by stigmata
i would not mind gettng a recticle, if the spells, range dmg was all put back as it was.
i am very much against LOS for APU's after all they are summoning lightning from the sky not firing it from their ass
I don't think I'd mind the no LOS thing either as long as monks had to maintain lock while they fire like everyone else. But as it stands that is, IMO, a MASSIVE advantage for monks.
Monks also get a large amount of spare DEX they can use for runspeed - use that to your advantage - run around like a madman so the other classes can't maintain lock and shoot back at them - the other classed have to avoid getting hit by your no-recticle, no-lock firing ability AND they have to maintain a lock on you to shoot you.
Athon Solo
np Snow, apu's are fine without a heal anyway if they fix the HL damage (I would even get that damage reduced if they fixed FA and Psi Poison).
Yep I wouldnt mind a change in the animation secuence and aiming system either.
Dribble Joy
05-02-04, 15:51
Judge CAPS at 116m, you need an INSANE amount of WEP to get aywhere near that.
Even those people I know who don't poke mc5s don't get more than 90.
180ish range is the stuff of dreams for us.
IMO monks are just far to used to being able to kill / survive an attack from anyone they meet. They are going to have to adapt to the new system underwhich they are much more BALANCED (oh noz! The forbidden word!) and that they are gonig to die sometimes.
Athon Solo
I disagree with that.
Fortunately KK disagrees too.
Originally posted by Sleawer
I disagree with that.
Fortunately KK disagrees too.
Disagree with what? If my post, then IMO KK has done a lot in the past couple of months to balance monks a lot more.
Athon Solo
Yes I disagree with your post, monks are not balanced atm by miles.
And KK thinks the same, otherwise they wouldnt make so many changes to the class, changes that come since beta...
And fortunetly HL damage will be fixed.
Don't mind a slight range reduction, but having it chopped in half for most spells plainly sucks :)
Yeah pistoleers don't have much range, it's a pistol, you aren't meant to. And you have far superior defence than APU's. APU's need SOME range to survive beyond running around like a headless chicken, cutting it in half was too heavy handed IMO.
Still, at least KK listen, and do react reasonably swiftly to what they believe are rational and legitimate arguments for this and that. Alot better than some, although I have to wonder if it would stay the same if NC's player base jumped by 5000 people.
the other day i was with some pistolers and they were out ranging me o_O and i was like wtf. oh and if you are wondering im an apu and if you want range for a pistoler use the tt epic pistol
Originally posted by Lathuc
the other day i was with some pistolers and they were out ranging me o_O and i was like wtf. oh and if you are wondering im an apu and if you want range for a pistoler use the tt epic pistol
LoL that's even worse then :D
Originally posted by athon
IMO monks are just far to used to being able to kill / survive an attack from anyone they meet. They are going to have to adapt to the new system underwhich they are much more BALANCED (oh noz! The forbidden word!) and that they are gonig to die sometimes.
Athon Solo
you play an APU athon?
if you do then do you still go out solo hunting collecting tech parts?
my apu only comes out to play with a PPU now, so people bitch about APU/PPU teams being everywhere.
all the nerfs only continue to compile this dependance for an APU to have a PPU with him.
i used to solo at cycrow or TG or any other canyon zone, this is no longer possible, the advantage of range and speed of kill has gone now, by the time you shoot the mob you have to run back to cover wating for it to come into range only for it to walk over the hill your hiding behind and kill you.
Originally posted by stigmata
you play an APU athon?
if you do then do you still go out solo hunting collecting tech parts?
my apu only comes out to play with a PPU now, so people bitch about APU/PPU teams being everywhere.
all the nerfs only continue to compile this dependance for an APU to have a PPU with him.
i used to solo at cycrow or TG or any other canyon zone, this is no longer possible, the advantage of range and speed of kill has gone now, by the time you shoot the mob you have to run back to cover wating for it to come into range only for it to walk over the hill your hiding behind and kill you.
I don't play an APU right now - I relatively recently LOMd it to PPU. But an APU can easily hunt warbots solo. I used to do it a lot. Maybe you just need more skill and inteligence (and I'm not talking about stats)
Oh no! You can't solo 120 mobs anymore! My capped rifleman finds it difficult to solo chasers without dieing. Again, more examples of monks crying because they are not as uber as they were. Monks were masively unbalanced - that's why we had 'monkocron'. Now things are a lot more even - the only people who are whinign are the monks because they die occaisionally - about as much as the rest of us.
APU / PPU does make a good combo - but then so would a spy / PPU combo, PE / ppu combo or tank / ppu combo - PPUs give a massive boost to any class they double-up with.
Athon Solo
But in role-play terms, the monk is meant to be the superior class over say a gen-tank for damage? At least thats what the story line was when I last read it :eek:
That's a poor argument in terms of balance, I bet you are saying it in a sarcastic way before anyone says it seriously :p
MjukisDjur
05-02-04, 16:41
Yes Mister, in my manual the psi monks rip that capped tank apart in a sec... :P
Keep it civil please, this thread is merely a cry for a low lvl spell to have some range. I dont care if the energy bolt gets it. Just give us something to attract mobs with.
I really think that APU's should have the damage back, and the range for HL. Put some excitement back into the class :rolleyes:
If we're going to talk about storyline then keep up to date people! Since then a strange force has affected monks - on several occaisions I believe.
Athon Solo
Yea, its called nerfage :(
No it's not, it's the secret Yorkish (Or CityAdmin, if you're on the York side of things) PSI Suppressor! They're still optimizing it, which is why there's some odd fluctuations in efficience of certain Psi Modules or combinations of APU and PPU.
Shadow Dancer
05-02-04, 19:55
The range was far too high before, now it's good.
LOL Shadow wannabie Reez cant you be Rade anymore :p
Nash_Brigham
05-02-04, 21:33
Originally posted by athon
But APUs get no recticle - they only have ot hold target long enough to click their mouse button and then they hit the target - even if they go behind a wall and out of sight. All other classes have to maintain lock and maintain line of sight.
If APUs want this 'unnerf' then they MUST get reticle as well IMO. That is just becoming major bullshit. An APU must maintain LoS in order to zap their target. They must still be targetting their target, have the box on them and everything. I have yet to be able to zap someone through a wall.
Originally posted by Nash_Brigham
That is just becoming major bullshit. An APU must maintain LoS in order to zap their target. They must still be targetting their target, have the box on them and everything. I have yet to be able to zap someone through a wall.
Your APU doesn't get out much then (assuming you actually have one).
Athon Solo
QuantumDelta
05-02-04, 22:31
Unless he's using like..fireball or lances......or something....but those are noob spells (Like QFA :p)
Halos/etc need one click while the enemy target box is live, and can then twirl around all they like and it'll still hit when it casts.
Halos/etc also insta-hit, have no ballistic style travelling problem.
Then there are the multi bolts that never need a target box in the first place.
Nash_Brigham
05-02-04, 22:37
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Unless he's using like..fireball or lances......or something....but those are noob spells (Like QFA :p)
Halos/etc need one click while the enemy target box is live, and can then twirl around all they like and it'll still hit when it casts.
Halos/etc also insta-hit, have no ballistic style travelling problem. I do play an APU and I do use energy halo, and I have yet to get one lock and just run around without keepin lock and be able to attack something. I think other ppl are just full of major bullshit here. And yes, I do hold down the attack button, and still if I don't keep that lock on, then my spell does the fizzle pop.
QuantumDelta
05-02-04, 22:44
Originally posted by Nash_Brigham
I do play an APU and I do use energy halo, and I have yet to get one lock and just run around without keepin lock and be able to attack something. I think other ppl are just full of major bullshit here. And yes, I do hold down the attack button, and still if I don't keep that lock on, then my spell does the fizzle pop.
Let me explain this clearly then...
1. APU Sees enemy.
2. APU Targets enemy.
3. APU clicks mouse button ONCE for ONE attack and once that mouse button is clicked that attack WILL hit unless the spell fizzles due to runcast error*
*Runcast errors happen ONLY due to running, the more proficiently you can use the spell (statistically) the less likely you are to have a spell that fizzles.
Ironically, all weapons work like this, however, it's most obvious with PSI Spells because they do not have a reticle.
If you hold down the mouse button, then sure, you will need to keep the target lock, however, it is much more effective in high pressure situations to *click* the mouse button repeatedly when the enemy is targeted.
Simply because if you lose your target you will not waste mana on fizzling spells.
I think that just about covered it...
I really don't wanna see someone *TRY* tell me this is wrong ¬.¬
You are wrong QD. j/k :p
Pretty much you covered it all... all weapons work the same, and if monk casting fizzled when we lost LoS then the animation secuence would have to be tweaked a bit also.
Another key is that with the APU spells, if you have a targeting box, YOU WILL HIT THE TARGET no matter how much of the target you can see. Even if you cant see the target and you can only see the box.
With other weaps, your projectile must be able to get to the target, even if you can see the box.
Mr Friendly
05-02-04, 23:04
if u'r this pissed over just the range, & gunna reroll cuz of it...u dun deserve to represent part of the PSI class. seriously, with all the psi nerf threads, just be glad they didnt make buffs self cast only, by each char, or summin else the whiners came up with
QuantumDelta
05-02-04, 23:05
Originally posted by Mr Friendly
if u'r this pissed over just the range, & gunna reroll cuz of it...u dun deserve to represent part of the PSI class. seriously, with all the psi nerf threads, just be glad they didnt make buffs self cast only, by each char, or summin else the whiners came up with Classic "can't see past the end of his own nose" syndrome.
Mr Friendly
05-02-04, 23:08
if ur refering that to me, then apparently u dont deserve to either.
if not & referin to the thread starter, den kk :D
QuantumDelta
05-02-04, 23:10
Originally posted by Mr Friendly
if ur refering that to me, then apparently u dont deserve to either.
if not & referin to the thread starter, den kk :D I was refering to your reference of Self-Cast Theory alone.
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
I don't like the PPU idea but really don't have the energy to address it... -- SD said the same thing
Scikar says:
heh
Scikar says:
the only thing that concerned me was tank and pe defence ending up the same, but i figured that was a minor point and not the issue of the thread
Scikar says:
i think it would certianly decrease the importance of ppus at op wars if tanks and pes dont gain anything from ppus except buffs and heals
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
A) It's too complex B) it's not going to fix the balance issues between APU/PE/Tank when PPU is around
Scikar says:
why not?
Scikar says:
well maybe on the apu side
Scikar says:
but tank/pe would essentially be on level ground
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
I've explained enough times what the balance issue between PE/Tank/APU + PPU does
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
lol
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
ugh
Scikar says:
the way he put it, a pe self buffed would have the same defence if ppu buffed, and a tank would not gain any defence at all from shields
Scikar says:
though when he said ppu shields would bring apu defence up to the same level i wasnt too sure
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
It's nicely thought out, but lacks one thing
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
...knowledge of the game
Scikar says:
i guess
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
"lets make it so that having a ppu makes everyone's defence the same =DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD"
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
............
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
When everyone has different levels of attack power?
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
LOL
Scikar says:
maybe i just got a bit overexcited at the first real chance to reduce a ppu's importance
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
First real?
Scikar says:
well when was the last half decent idea?
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
I already put the only idea that will work and balance the effects of the PPU at the same time on that forum.
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
It got rejected by a few people, sure, but that's mainly because 90% of this community are bloody morons.
Scikar says:
what about the big ass tank shield idea? =)
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
Tanks no longer need boosting.
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
as long as you ignore the somewhat underpowered AoE
Scikar says:
CS will get its damaged reduced again next patch
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
but then if their AoE was significantly boosted I'd ask CS to be reduced somewhat
Scikar says:
the PEs have been whining already
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
so what?
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
those boosts were never meant to be there
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
for sake of balance i'm ignoring them
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
because if i didn't it would drive me insane at how STUPID those changes were.
Scikar says:
you do realise pain easer was boosted too?
Scikar says:
i think the damage increase on CS is balanced by PE stealth
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
-_-
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
just don't
Scikar says:
im serious, PE stealth just has to go
Scikar says:
just because you never liked using it doesnt mean that the 90% who do can be ignored
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
I already posted up other options.
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
I did use it, occasionally, but like I said --- mainly because I was either out numbered or parashocked
Scikar says:
and if thats all it was used for there wouldnt be a problem
Scikar says:
do you realise that people have actually started dying again since the last patch?
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
I don't particularly care about who dies, who lives, who rules, or whatever. - but then again, that's why I am normally right ... because the only thing I do give a crap about is uncompromised balance, that's why when I say something, I say what needs to be done, if people want compromise they can go to hell
Scikar says:
ill admit its not really balanced
Scikar says:
but before the patch, nobody died
Scikar says:
it took 3 clips of CS and a PE would still be alive
Scikar says:
just think for a second how hard it is to kill someone when you have to hit him 15 times without him healing once, and when he's stealthing everywhere
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
That's an exageration...
Scikar says:
its not, i tested with vet
Scikar says:
his pe setup survived 3 clips of CS from 3 different tanks
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
Heh, dude, Vett is one of the three best PEs on Neocron, and he only has that defence (DISPITE what he says) when he has drugged for it.
Scikar says:
ok so take the average then, what difference does it make?
Scikar says:
say 2 clips of CS, is that unreasonable>?
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
2 clips = 8 or 10 bursts?
Scikar says:
10
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
PEs don't measure clips we measure bursts...
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
typical non-drugged defence for hi-tech PEs is 8-10 bursts, yea.
Scikar says:
ok, now throw in stealth
Scikar says:
and add in the fact that at every oppurtinity he's hitting heal, thats giving him 105 hp
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
lol
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
so what?
Scikar says:
so they didnt die
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
GOOD Tanks should be able to do that too.
Scikar says:
no, nobody should
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
I was refering to the heal.
Scikar says:
bah
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
As for PE Defence
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
it's FINE, it has to be better than a tanks to balance out tank attack
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
YES Stealth is a problem
Scikar says:
stop getting so defensive, im not saying its just PE defence
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
but there are FAR more ways to fix it than to remove it.
Scikar says:
im saying its everyones defence
Scikar says:
did it never strike as you being a little bit counter intuitive when you empty 3 clips of lib ammo into someone and he's not dead?
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
Even when played at their maximum combat effectiveness, everyone, including PPUs, can/will typically die in a 1on1 situation given both players are equal in skill and prepaired.
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
heh
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
dumping 3 clips of lib ammo into someone and them being still alive was something I attributed to using pistols
Scikar says:
it was true of everything though
Scikar says:
even CS - we're looking at average players, so they're not hitting with every shot
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
105/min - 50-100 hp per hit, 400-500 hp per person, how long does it take someone to die?
Scikar says:
HL deals twice as much damage as anything else
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
*waits for you to fall into a specific trap*
Scikar says:
you cant say oh HL kills people fairly quick so therefore everyone's defence is fine
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
heh you didn't say what i expected
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
so i'll say my next comment anyway...
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
the more you increase EVERYONEs offence
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
the more underpowered APUs will become, by default, because they depend on their massive offence as their only real defence, sufficing to say, even if HL were increased in proportion to the other weaponry, every increase would work to the PE/Tanks/Spies benefit in terms of damage vs defence
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
as much as you don't like your "nobody dies" view - it isn't true, but the reality of the problem is damage vs defence currently these levels are the closest to balance there will be...
Scikar says:
as much as it would pain shadow for me to say it, i dont think its worth trying to balance apus in 1v1 any more because the vast majority would never consider 1v1 anyway
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
it doesn't matter
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
if you balance an apu for a 1vs1 situation
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
and then use my single, simple, clear, uncompromised ppu balance/reliance adjusting idea, it stops mattering, because apus are still balanced, even when PPUs are around.
Scikar says:
well lets put apus aside for a minute
Scikar says:
after the latest patch we've seen CS, Devourer, Judge, Beam of Hell, Healing Light, Executioner all get a boost
Scikar says:
oh and speedgun
Scikar says:
and slasher
Scikar says:
the result is, lib is a little underpowered
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
untrue
Scikar says:
rolh is maybe a little lower than it should be, rog is where it should be
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
the lib was previously overpowered just impossible to aim reliably enough to take advantage of that fact
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
when they fixed the aiming i would suspect liberator became overpowered
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
if they fixed the aiming
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
vett said they did but that means fa to me
Scikar says:
well anyway if i was making the decisions
Scikar says:
i'd give lib its burst bonus back
Scikar says:
tweak its aiming
Scikar says:
then balance it for a tl91 pistol
Scikar says:
im happy with everything else
Scikar says:
though of course i would say that cos im a tank
Scikar says:
it did piss me off before though that all chars in general were too difficult to kill
Scikar says:
i used to die in fights more than anyone else, not because i was fighting any worse but because i refused to run away, despite the fact i knew i could have easily survived
Scikar says:
oh and i think pain easer has been boosted as well
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
Scikar says:
i used to die in fights more than anyone else, not because i was fighting any worse but because i refused to run away, despite the fact i knew i could have easily survived
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
same deal
Scikar says:
and thats why i like this patch, because if you are winning the fight then it generally ends in your opponent dying, unlike earlier when you would be winning the fight so the other person just runs away
Scikar says:
anyway brb i need a drink
Scikar says:
so, now we come to apus
Scikar says:
what do you think about them now?
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
They, like every other class in the game are losely based on 1on1 combat
Scikar says:
and? are they strong or weak?
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
when alone
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
they're fine
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
when backed by a PPU they gain far too much of an advantage over anyone else backed by a ppu
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
primarily, because shelter brings their defence up far enough, to be fairly comperable with tanks/pes
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
this is the crux of the PPU problem
QuantumDelta
05-02-04, 23:11
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
Shelter and Deflector unbalance class vs class combat
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
hense "monkocron" at op wars and APU+PPU being the most effective combo
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
should be a simple/basic premise that most people can see
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
....but they don't
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
however
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
once you realise this
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
the way to fix it becomes completely obvious
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
what's more, the way to fix it makes PPUs less important on the battle field.
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
whilst not actually "nerfing" the PPU itself
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
Simply; make Shelter and Deflector "self cast" only.
Scikar says:
yeah i know
Scikar says:
but we've been down that road once already with this community
Scikar says:
some realised it would solve the whole problem and went for it
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
I know but every time the idea is posted more people realise the reality
Scikar says:
others either couldnt see it or refused to
Scikar says:
this is the whole reason why we need a balancing commitee
Scikar says:
the devs cant see the solutions because they dont know the game well enough
Scikar says:
and the community as a whole is too short sighted to look at anything in the long term
Uzumaki Naruto - Stop complaining about your destiny, and how it can't be changed. says:
I know
Stupid character count limit.
There.
Self-Cast Theory explained so even an idiot could see it is the only truth.
Mr Friendly
05-02-04, 23:13
aahh IC, anyway, apparently it seems u got the wrong idea. no i dont like the self cast idea at all & voted no for that thread.(buffs being ONLY self cast) was just demonstrating how he should be glad they didnt nerf sumthin else that's more important. but dont get me wrong, it could most likely fix alotta things if like, only monks were able to cast buffs on monks, tanks only on tanks, etc, etc....THAT im all for, but not for havin buffs, self cast only, cuz that takes the entire role of the ppu out of the game
but o/w, it's prolly a 'big patch=screw up' somewhere with the spell ranges since it wasnt in the patch 196 info
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
I really don't wanna see someone *TRY* tell me this is wrong ¬.¬ It's not 100% correct, fizzling can also happen if your target moves out of range, or you move to far away from the target, but that's the only thing you missed. And it's also rather unlikely to happen.
Shadow Dancer
05-02-04, 23:22
QD your msn name is way too long, lol. :p
Dribble Joy
05-02-04, 23:25
Not as long as mine used to be.
mom, I'll remember it in a bit.
Argh noooo all the people with ezzas avatar.... I'm so confused :(
QD I dont see it as the truth, I see it as the truth of a person that only sees the game from a very simple perspective.
Am I an idiot?
Self-cast shelter/deflector is the most retarded idea as long as ppu/apu concepts exist, to be fair... always that you consider the ppu a support char.
My thoughts... I would have sooo much to say in that conversation.
/edit: sorry if you got offended by the word "retarded", you know that you have my respect, but the word stays.
_______________________________________________
I re-edit the post, the above happens when I click "post reply" before going to another thread and read something that calms me down. My apologies.
The very first idea of implementing ppu's and apu's in the game is to divert the class into two supporting roles.. while I may agree or disagree with this it is my personal opinion, the concept of monk in this game then, if the system doesnt change, is tied to the word support.
Removing the ability to support the defences of other players, call it self-cast shelter and deflector, is cutting the role of ppu's in two. There are infinite more ways to balance the defences offered by ppu's without damaging their role so much.
To be honest, that sounds the same as the same people that wants ppu's with invincibility mode.
No I dont agree with the idea for the reasons stated above... to me agreeing with this would mean being careless about all the people that plays the ppu to really support others.
You always can re-design completely the monk class, but this is only possible if you think like me, that the whole monk class is flawed.
Dribble Joy
05-02-04, 23:46
Can I flame him?
Do what you want Dribble Joy, if you cant stand respectful with my ideas I will take this conversation to pm's or msn anyway.
No offence really.
Dribble Joy
06-02-04, 00:00
It's not that I can't stand respect full with your ideas, it's that you cannot do so yourself. You utterly disgregarded the opinions and ideas that QD put forth, with little reason and no constructive criticism.
Do not expect me to come back with witty coments or a well worded argument, my english skills are appaling.
PPUs are support chars. How can they be anything else?
APUs cirtainly are not support, they may lack independance and defence, but they do not NEED ppus with them.
Making shields self cast only brings the 1vs1 balance we currently see between the combat classes (ignoring the last patch dmg fuck-up), to the OP and team fighting arena. Simple as that.
I won't go into detail, because I will fuck it up.
True Dribble Joy, my apologies and thread edited so he can see both versions of my person... pissed one and calmed down the other (and embarrassed for being an ass).
My english is appaling also, you dont need to speak perfectly to sound good or be respectful. Thanks for opening my eyes tho.
Your second paragraph has its reply in my edit above. Just to add that while people keeps thinking in balancing the classes 1vs1 we will never get the so-called balance.
Mr Friendly
06-02-04, 00:12
i think u guys overpassed a fix that imo is a good one:
it could most likely fix alotta things if like, only monks were able to cast buffs on monks, tanks only on tanks, etc, etc....THAT im all for, but not for havin buffs, self cast only, cuz that takes the entire role of the ppu out of the game
the ppu is still a support char & the apu+ppu combo is still there. but u cant increase the spells of the tanks & PEs cuz that would just be creating another problem. overpowered kinda thing
no downside really, unless u think a PE or tank now not gettin to get buffed to holy hell when 1) the PE already has high health & his OWN buffs, & the tank with nice resists (if figured well) & VERY high health
this forum & everyone in the game seem to be all against another class besides their own, selfish, but mainly towards the monk class. why not make it that way in game? :p
Originally posted by Judge
Argh noooo all the people with ezzas avatar.... I'm so confused :(
Yea dont fuck with my avatar :mad:
*Shadow feel pwnd* :p
Rofl, I thought that WAS ezza just then, t0tt3 :p
QuantumDelta
06-02-04, 02:13
Sleawer - relax, I'm just polling for the simplest, most effective, most brutal changes that have a 100% garauntee of working...
Yes I would prefer a total redesign of the monk class, but tell me, this game, neocron, that's been in retail over 14 months now... really shouldn't be fundamentally changing classes all the time.
Self-Cast is while obvious, a simple, direct, easy change that fixes a lot of problems.
Of course, the fact that Self-cast would fix a lot of the REAL PPU Problems, it would also allow some of the previous, not needed/"Good idea at the time" nerfs could be removed.
A total redesign isn't gonna happen, so I'm working with what I've got.
Once more, because you're thinking outside the box I'll give you credit, it is true what you said a full (WELL THOUGHT OUT AND TESTED) redesign would be preferable, but, it's just not gonna happen.
Hense my simple, brutal, obvious change that leaves PPUs intact AND leaves them with most of their abilities (only two reduced) intact, and allows us to remove some of the more annoying nerfs on APU/PPUs.
mmm... however it would mean that APUs would NEED to stay as they currently are.
Mr Friendly
06-02-04, 02:46
i thought this thread was bout spell ranges......& yes that is a hint that the thread is gettin off track ;)
QuantumDelta
06-02-04, 02:48
Originally posted by Mr Friendly
i thought this thread was bout spell ranges......& yes that is a hint that the thread is gettin off track ;)
Ranges are balanced.
Though APUs REALLY should be allowed a Heal of some sort to compensate for it.
Preferably a non-runcastable heal so that it doesn't unbalance PvP, but a strong enough heal (close to TL3) that is well worth finding cover for a second to use.
I'm relaxed now, thanks for the understanding of my unedited post.
Stating the idea as you say now I think I understand a bit more the motivations to be that extreme... tho still disagree.
It's like everyone asking to remove stealth from PE's.
It's really so hard to find a different solution?
What about the role of PE's getting access to the lower resources of the other classes?
What about being able to choose between different ways to spec and play your char?
Why a class has to be played in one form and only that one is the valid?
Why a class has to renounce to one of its roles for the shake of 1vs1 combat?
Sounds extreme to me, very extreme... same situation with this idea of ppu's.
Let's go to the other extreme; imagine for a moment that ppu monks suddenly arent able to shield themsevels, becoming therefore even more targets for everyone. What's the reason for this?
As the idea of having a char that can support very well but, for a flaw in the game mechanics, cannot be protected by his team properly therefore being dead in seconds, is extreme and unnecessary to me... having a char with insanely overpowered defences but a half-ass boring support role is it aswell.
Yes the idea of remodeling the monk class completely sounds as harsh as this, that's why besides mentioning it I'm not sure to count that as a solution.
The idea of playing a game and a class in particular is having a compendium of defined and fun roles to play... for harsh that it can sound, the tweaks of balance in a game can go as far as they dont harm the fun of playing the class. When a class, call it ppu, becomes boring, annoying and stressing to play, then people start to play it for the wrong reasons.. that's what I wouldnt like to see happen with ppu's.
No, after hearing your motivations I cant really disagree with what originates them, but I also believe that more solutions are avaible, solutions that do not harm the support role of ppu's.
I.E. I see a glitch here:
Apu's alone are fine> Apu's teamed with ppu's are overpowered>ppu's screw the balance.
No. Here is the fail.
If that happens it is because apu's arent fine either, both have a flaw. In first place I dont believe that one class holding two of the major extreme and most important roles in the game combat is balanced, and if it wasnt enought, no other class has similar or alternative roles.
The start IMO is suppressing the essential necessity that generates having one class with all the roles, giving the other classes alternative roles to the ones already existant in the monk class. We depend extremely TOO MUCH of psi for everything, that for saying the least is wrong.
A second step would be looking deeper into the specific unbalances that still are after the first step. This is the called "class balance" and in no way it is in first place, or should be looked only as the perspective of 1vs1. As I mentioned in another thread, no class should be able to negate their balancing negatives even teamed with the opposite class/subclass... complementing them is much more accurate... the perfect idea would be that all classes covered the negatives of the others with their own roles adding a small portion of their usefulness, but these negatives still would be there, even in big teams, so they could be still exploited.
This way we are "keeping" the balance.
To me it's like a puzzle, you can construct one slowly and carefully, and when everything seems alright a flaw appears and doesnt let you continue. You can either keep trying to insert the next piece by force, or you can try to search for what you screwed in first place when started the puzzle.
Bah not sure if I explained myself properly. I'd want to give you examples and ideas to make it clearer, but in the context of these forums they might aswell mess everything even more, taken them as facts that I think.
Overall I disagree with the whole idea (no need to agree with it to understand or even accept it), but I have to admit that the reasons for it are stronger and more acceptable than I thought. That happens me for jumping to conclusions, if I knew them probably I hadnt been so pissed to make those first comments.
So yea your theory is explained now.. mine still is in the mist... and seems that I'm an idiot, not for the reasons I thought but an idiot after all lol.
Just one question: did you guys understand what I have written in this thread?
Sometimes I get the impression that no one replies because I dont explain myself good enought lol.
QuantumDelta
06-02-04, 04:03
Heh, I do understand what you're saying.
I'll try make it a tad more clear...
The reason it's not actually a fail is this;
1vs1 - all classes are even (within some tweaking differences, and ignoring spy for purpose of exception to the rule that needs to be fixed but isn't the issue we're talking about right here), if we were to rate it we would do so, roughly like this;
APU;
80% Offence.
20% Defence.
Tank;
65% Offence.
35% Defence.
PE;
55% Offence.
45% Defence.
When PPUs are introduced, this happens;
APU;
80% Offence.
80% Defence.
Tank;
65% Offence.
85% Defence.
PE;
55% Offence.
50% Defence. (providing the PE self cast blessed deflector and the PPU cast holy deflector, the PPU gains roughly 5% shelter protection, these are rough figures since actual PvP absorbtion isn't effected precisely like these, but again, these are only for demonstration).
It should be instantly obvious where the error occurs, it's in the way shelter works...
I have tried, and beyond overly complex coding to reduce damage in proportion to defence gained (which would effectively turn everyone into complete, exact equals on the battle field because your defence would have been boosted to the same, medium level as everyone else, and your damage would have been nerfed, into the same medium), kinda makes classes pointless doing that though.
So, other than that option, and self-cast not being allowed for this example, the only other possibility, is a total rework,
Total reworks will mean that people will be unhappy with how their class has been changed (you will always get more whiners when there's a fundamental change, than you will when there's a nerf).
So generally speaking in my view it is pretty much the only workable option.
At the same time, this balancing of PvP in op wars, instantly reduces a PPUs presence in an op war to Curative and Holy magic only, which is very close to what most other MMORPGs/RPGs have set to (the only real exceptions I can think of are single player games).
Generally speaking it's probably the only real way we will ever see balance.
Of course, as I said before this allows stuff like rezz to be reasonably unnerffed (kk and others seem to appreciate death meaning something but under the new rules 25 second cast time isn't nessicary, 9, would be more than enough, especially with HAB and the new Drone wandering around).
add to that;
What's more, PPUs themselves remain relatively untouched.
PEs actually become on a level footing with other classes in op wars.
Spies still require balancing.
It's really a major step forward, imo...
n.b;
mob damage can be easily adjusted.
That makes sense. I can see the idea... i.e. the apu gets such a big benefit from ppu's because its strenght is built upon a buff free enviroment, therefore getting buffs is making him going over the top. Reducing his offence and boosting the defence (e.g. having basic buffs) only would make him equal to the other classes... each class has a reason to get that boost and to modify the reason has the consequence of making an unique role for all classes most likely.
Might aswell make all monks hybrids and balance from there... of course with self-cast only, but not sure if we would be facing the same problem.
The problem I see making Shelter/Deflector self-cast only is having the ppu as a healing/rezzing whore. Not sure about the fun of that.
I was giving as a fact that adding more alternative roles would help to fix the dependancy we have in monks, but might aggravate the current flaw in the combat effectiveness. I'm trying to not think 100% in pure combat, but more in the usefulness of the classes.
The side that we are not taking into account is prolly this:
PPU:
90% defence
10% offence
He's the ppu so he is the one providing those benefits to the other classes.... what he gets? His situation is the same no matter how many ppu's come into the scenario, yet he is first of the most essential classes in the game. I'd say we are missing one element in that equation:
100% team utility.
This IMO is where the classes are most screwed rather than offence/defence. If ppu's get 100% utility just tell me what apu's with HAB and highest damage get... the chance to neutralyze that 100% team-role. In one class_everything_.
My idea is balancing that third element outside the offence/defence. 1vs1 we should still be even...
APU
80% Offence
20% defence
TANK
65% Offence
35% defence
PE
55% Offence
45% Defence
SPY
60% Offence
40% Defence (duh.. not sure if that much)
PPU
10% Offence
90% Defence
Now we move to team fight:
APU
80% Offence
80% Defence
40% Team Utility
TANK
65% Offence
85% Defence
50% Team Utility
PE
55% Offence
50% Defence
95% Team Utility
SPY
60% Offence
60% Defence
80% Team Utility
PPU
10% Offence
90% Defence
100% Team Utility
This would be only achieved throught adding new useful roles and features to the game... enriching our gameplay and the content of the game.
We need more classes that can support others effectively.
- The most potential candidates are PE's and Spies.
- We know that ppu's already have the 100% TU, and apu's the 40% (more I believe, but with the other roles added it would decrease).
- Tanks could get major AE boost to improve their fighter role, AE damage comparable to apu, great range but low precision and the need of a team (it's just an example, dont take it as a fact)
- Spies could get a decent spy role, SD had very nice ideas regarding gadgets and tools for spies... but it should be really useful to the team, something that gives a fair advantage (like ppu's give advantages to their teams).
- PE's... I'm open minded.
Add to this the fact that we need more healers (i.e. medicine, we are in the future how come that PSI's are the only medics?) and probably other kind of shields rather than just PSI shields (technology does wonders).
These should be features that only could be used in teams... what's a ppu outside a team?... then the fragile 1vs1 balance should be untouched. And all teams should add their utility equaly, atm when we talk about teams we think always in ppu + [insert class here].
This was my point. If it works I wouldnt bet my neck on it, but might worth the try.
/edit: dont take the SPY percents seriously as their offence/defence is imo lower than tanks... it shoud be addressed better.
MjukisDjur
06-02-04, 10:21
So just make shelter and deflector self cast.
Force the use of group shelter / deflector and make them weaker than the original s/d.
We can probably throw in heal at the same time. No heal unless group heal is being used or sanctum.
Think about it for 1 sec before you flame. Personally I think something good can come out of this idea :)
Originally posted by MjukisDjur
So just make shelter and deflector self cast.
Force the use of group shelter / deflector and make them weaker than the original s/d.
We can probably throw in heal at the same time. No heal unless group heal is being used or sanctum.
Think about it for 1 sec before you flame. Personally I think something good can come out of this idea :)
Actually that is very good. If we make group s/d the only way to shield others, and we make foreign cast s/d even weaker, then PPUs still get their sheilding role, without it being so unbalanced. It might not be perfect, but it will certainly be better than the current situation, and all without upsetting PPUs either.
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