View Full Version : Monk ballencer idea..(Psi booster changes)
Q`alooaith
04-02-04, 14:31
How's about we stop trying to nerf the monk class with all these changes, and get right to their heart's (wait, not my monk, leave him alone!!!!)..
Make psi booster's unclonable.. simple, and deadly to most psi's, who now rely on clonning their booster's rather that building or buying them..
What's this do to monks? well in case you didn't notice, Psi booster 3's don't come cheep, before clonning drug's was possible consting them took time, and so monk's didn't rule the roost, it was just too plain expensive to keep buying booster's for most people's tastes and they quickly left the class after they found they needed booster's to be the best..
So we remove the clonning of psi boosters, and maybe all the monk hate will stop, or at least let up and monk class see less attention on part's of Uber leet speak players..
Just and idea..
Rather increase the amount of psi boosters 3 u get in cloning...cause ur idea wont stop ppl from getting them at all.
Since money isnt a problem anymore these days , and with a barter...
Q`alooaith
04-02-04, 14:45
Originally posted by Sefran
Rather increase the amount of psi boosters 3 u get in cloning...cause ur idea wont stop ppl from getting them at all.
Since money isnt a problem anymore these days , and with a barter...
FFS, didn't you read a thing I put up..
The idea is that even though money's not a problem, it'd still be an issuse with many monk's that play the class just to be good and not spend any ammo costs..
Psi booster's should not be clonable, without clonning they become more a hassle to get the higher level one's, yea you can buy em, but then your monk's losing money which most people don't want to do.
Devils Grace
04-02-04, 14:52
i dont clone my psi boosters, and i dont use a barter to buy them, cant be hassle to find one....
so nottin new to me
And ur idea would fuck every low lvl monk up even more, i dont see any sence in ur idea...
Ammo is for guns and psi boosters is ammo for monks both are clonable , so why would 1 have to be unclonable? o_O
Q`alooaith
04-02-04, 14:57
simple, monk's don't have to use boosters..
this change would mean they are a luxary item...
Gun's need ammo to work, psi's don't need booster's to cast..
The idea is to make monk's a less uber desirable class to play, more balleced with the other classes..
BTW, my idea would fuck over most high level monk's too.. Rely more on booster's they do..
Aight , seems u played a monk quite some while then...emtpy mana pool is no more casting , same like ur gun is empty with no ammo....Why does every thing have to be indentical the same for u? Its the same thing at the end....
Well you could stop trying to nerf the things that dont need nerfing?
Monks are the core of team fighting, meant this as OP wars and massive fights... yet your idea of hurting the monk class where it needs is.... this?
Please....
Making classes less confortable to play, more stressful and more costly not only doesnt solve the imbalances in the game, but also screws the people that choosed the class to have fun instead being the 'uber monk'
Definetly this doesnt balance the game, but leads the monk class towards a more oriented Only_OP-War_Class.
Dade Murphey
04-02-04, 15:03
Originally posted by Sefran
Aight , seems u played a monk quite some while then...emtpy mana pool is no more casting , same like ur gun is empty with no ammo....Why does every thing have to be indentical the same for u? Its the same thing at the end....
Not sure...but I think part of the difference here is:
Monks regain mana...guns don't regain ammo naturally...just a shot in the dark :o
darkservent
04-02-04, 15:04
WOW QALOOTH ur on a real IDEA postin FRENZY 2day. Wots got u buzzin.
Q`alooaith
04-02-04, 15:07
Lol...
Point to a gun who's ammo regen's..
Didn't think you could..
Psi's don't need the boosters, you can still cast you just have to find some cover and let your psi pool regen a little... Yes, I have played a monk, I've played serveral in fact, Hybrid, APU, PPU, Mostly APU with TL3 heal hybrid, and I recently started a new PPU..
that's using one char slot and rerolling. the TL3 heal APU was the one that helped kill the MC5 newbi base commander BTW..
I know what being a monk is about. I know how booster's are the lifeblood of casting spell's forever, without them you need to stop often and let your pool regen, it take a little more time but your still as effective..
Besides melee no other weapon can do that, once you run out of ammo with a rifle you need to go get more.. pistol's same, so are cannons.. even vehical's don't have infinate ammo anymore..
Originally posted by Q`alooaith
simple, monk's don't have to use boosters..
ha, yeah right. You're suggesting that its viable to be be a monk without using a booster, it isn't, don't be silly. Sure, I'll just wait for my mana pool to regen, oops, it seems someone just blew my head off its shoulders, oh well.
All your suggestion will achieve is that it will recreate the old booster 3 sales market again. I'm all for that, I have 200 Psi boost 3's in a gogo doing nothing. Also, some PPU monks, like me, build their own boosters (its a reasonable way to level dex). With a construct 3 booster it means u don't need to lose that many INT points to do it.
In summary : Making boosters unclonable will just make it easier to sell them again. You've forgotten why ammo and boosters became clonable in the first place havent you ?
I dont just see any sence in the point u wanne make clear to us Q`alooaith. The only thing ur idea would make realistic that monks would increase there mana at a descent rate (now u can like ages to get a 300+ mana pool filled up), and having psi boosters on top of that would make it unbalanced so they would have to be taken out of the game...
And no1 would like to play monk if ur idea would come true ...so dont think so.
Q`alooaith
04-02-04, 15:17
Gydjia, you still play... not see you on saturn for... oh forever.... ahh well..
I don't realy have a problem with booster's getting sold, give's somthing for low/mid level ressers and consters to do...
I'm not saying remove them..
I'm just saying make it so people don't get them free anymore, which is basicaly what the current system is.. which was not the idea for clonning ammo and boosters..
Yes a psi can fight without boosters, I didn't say they'd be great, I said it can be done.. you want to get your pool back up use a booster.. Simple, I'm not saying booster's are bad, just saying clonning booster's is bad..
Clonning booster's is what make's monk's so attractive.. No cash output once you've your spells.
Q`alooaith the idea only would be good if the psi regen was increased to an extreme point, hence rendering psi boosters to the uselesness anyway due their own regen rate not being instant.
Running out of ammo in PvP is highly unlikely unless you dont have either transport and carry many weapons to feed with different ammo types.
Just to point that out also, the damage dealing ability of monks resides in their casting rate, and keeping it as high as possible. This with the current problems on monks and then mana (not being able to cap it) and the HUGE difference between RoF<->Mana replenish is already a problem.
And you ask to increase this problem even more?
As I have said, this is not making imbalances in the game, so a fix for what is not broken seems out of place to me.
Do you want to balance the monk class?
Then hurt the 'real heart' of the problem.
I was even thinking this was a joke.
I can stand your problems with the generic ammo type (even when all our STR points need to be in force), but auto-regenerate?
That is as usefull as any weapon pressing reload after each fight, the regenration rate doesnt allow monks to cast even_one_HL_more.
no one? . . umm pfft I hardly clone now a days I tend to always buy my psi boosters . .it's not like money is THAT hard to come by. In most cases money is totally useless . except to buy armor and when I'm leveling my monk up .. I hardly use any psi boosters . . things are either dead quickly . . or I'm hiding to heal up some . .in which case my pool is regenin' and if you're PvP'in in most cases you're at a mid to high level . . and by then the money should be rolling in from certain mob kills . .cave runs .. and such. Anyhow we're talking tradeskill here .. . make a better suggestion then to make recycling and everythign that falls into the recycling catagory more of a tradeskilll with benifits and failures . ..
heh the last line should belong in one of the other posts :p
Psyco Groupie
04-02-04, 15:22
have you ever tried cloning psi boosters ? .. a psi booster 3 takes like a bajillion tons of junk to make like 3 ..
if anything is changed people will just buy pb2's .. which is perfectly profitable
really really crap idea.
Q`alooaith
04-02-04, 15:23
Sleawer..
The idea is not to bloody remove booster's.. Just make them so people have to pay for them again..
It's ballenceing not in the monk's problem's all solved, but monk's are less viable farming machines.. You can still get a bunch of booster's still use them as fast as you like.. you just can't get them for nothing anymore..
MjukisDjur
04-02-04, 15:23
this would change NOTHING since we got 4 char servers...
U can clone ammo so u dont have to pay for that , why would i monk have to pay for that, racism for monks? (besides psi boosters are way more expensive if u wish to buy them anyway).
exactly amfest.
And just as a side note, if monks rely on recycle to get psi boosters that's also applicable to weapon ammo, just that weapon ammo is potentially obtainable in insane ammounts with few points in recycle, unlike boosters.
Killing two doomies grant you easyly 50-100 packs of ammo.
Killing the same two doomies after a cave run grant you prolly between 5-10 boosters (and I am being really generous).
No I dont like this change, this is going back to the past when everyone built their own boosters.
Q`alooaith
04-02-04, 15:27
Originally posted by MjukisDjur
this would change NOTHING since we got 4 char servers...
In that case you'd be for these changes... it won't affect you if it changes nothing..
//////////////////////////////////
This is where anything to do with monk's always get's noisy, people want to keep thing's how they are, don't want change, or there are the anti monk's who want monk's changed into nothing's...
So anything people say is pointless, the idea remains, make psi booster's unclonnable, that's all psi booster's... Then every psi has to put a bit of cash out to buy em....
Q`alooaith...
I am glad that you think in possible options for what is considered a problem, but making this change wont solve any problem.
Monks are great farmers because they can clone boosters?
I disagree. We are great farmers due:
1- damage (specially AoE damage)
2- no LoS required.
3- ability to team with a ppu with zero negatives
This would not even serve as money sink, since everyone will build their own psi boosters anyway to gain precious dex levels.
Monks need changes, but not this, not silly-changes or stupid-nerfs to make the class less comfortable to play.
And to me what people say is not pointless, even if the idea remains.
I lommed out recycle after I lommed in barter.
Recycling for boosters isn't really worth it to begin with. You can go through quite a few boosters when your PvM that just about keeps you on par with the junk you get (worse if you have others in the group who want ammo).
Buying them is not that big a deal, I certainly wouldn't buy them constructed. About the only time it might be worthwhile is if you had a clan collecting junk to generate them.
Once you have a fair whack into PSI Use your dependancy on boosters goes away.
As for op fights, no one is going to recycle while they are there, and all this really does is screw over the lower level users who are short on cash.
Anyway, boosters were already nerfed sometime ago. If you actually played a monk full time you would know this already.
have you ever tried cloning psi boosters ? .. a psi booster 3 takes like a bajillion tons of junk to make like 3 ..
Exactly, only certain loot gives good number of boosters so generic junk doesn't help (where as you end up with 200+ boxes of ammo that you will never ever need).
mcouillard
04-02-04, 15:38
How about instead of making this a diablo potion-fest (which it has become if you've ever seen an APU's QB or seen one fight), a re-use delay is added to all boosters? Or perhaps just slow down how fast psi regenerates when taking a booster. It would balence monks versus heavy/rifle/pistol users, in my mind:
Monks:
PSI Pool (effectively inconsequential thanks to booster chewing)
No aiming reticle
Weapons:
Ammo & reload time
Aiming reticle
Hm?
Heavyporker
04-02-04, 15:38
what a bullshit idea. This does nothing useful and only makes it annoying. I'll only buy into this poor idea if ammo becomes unclonable.
and no, the monk hate won't stop. you think hate is a rational thing. this idea does fuckall to change that.
and no one EVER made a profit off cloning psi3s and shit... you hold up the table values of the scraps and shit and the value of the psi3s that come out... you're losing money, even with barter.
As a monk myself I don't really see this as a huge problem.
I would simply LOM my recycle and put it somewhere else.
However, my problem with this IS the expense.
If your idea is implemented, why should monks be forced to pay nearly 4 times as much for 4 psi booster 3's as the most expensive type of ammo for any other class (raygun cannon ammo). Maybe charge twice as much. Even with the ability to regenerate mana it is still way too expensive, especially for low level runners.
Or, instead why not raise the TL of psi boosters? Making it more difficult for monks to want to recycle them, of course don't affect how much junk would be necessary.
Just my opinion, though.
Sounds like a really bad idea too me.
"I know what being a monk is about. I know how booster's are the lifeblood of casting spell's forever, without them you need to stop often and let your pool regen, it take a little more time but your still as effective.."
Yea errrrm, how tiny was your mana pool? I have over 300 on both my monks and by the time that had regened either
a) The person i was shooting who have caught up to me and smacked me round the face
b) The entire war would be over, lot of fun that was
c) I spend 5 minutes camping the underground pop up for 5 seconds to empty my pool - rinse repeat
:rolleyes:
Errrr yea, fun
We NEED boosters, now i know you didnt say remove them and thus the above wouldnt happen but implying you CAN fight without them, which you did, is absurd.
The only possible way for what you say to be viable is if boosters returned to giving their + amount instantly (eg instead of progessively, you take a PSI 2 booster and you instantly get 200 no waiting).
Also with guns - It takes a few seconds to reload a cheap clip which can be cloaned 10x the amount of a booster 3. For a booster 3 to reload your pool it can take allllllllot longer. I fail to see how this would be at all balancing O_o
While your at it why dont you make Tank PA cost 10x as much for yet another MONEY SINK (which in essence is all your suggesting and really wont affect players with 20 million - who happen to the guys who talk in l33t btw as they have nothing better to do - but rather those strapped for cash) because you know ... then tanks would also be less farmed and we may see some more spys popping up :rolleyes:
May want to make Spy PA a freebie btw so to make them more attractive :rolleyes:
/end sarcasm
Dade Murphey
04-02-04, 15:42
I stopped reading at the first page...it seems some people forget the point of Q' something or another's thread...such as the fellow who said this would only work if the mana regen rate was increased...how in the HELL would this work with what Q was suggesting...it would, infact, defeat his point...this isn't just at that dude...I've seen an unusually high amount of stuff like this in the time I been home tonite O_o
tbh no
i want to play this game not spend hours consting them or waste thousands buying them.
no need to add mre time sinks, the current ones are enough to drive alot of people away
Originally posted by mcouillard
How about instead of making this a diablo potion-fest (which it has become if you've ever seen an APU's QB or seen one fight), a re-use delay is added to all boosters? Or perhaps just slow down how fast psi regenerates when taking a booster. It would balence monks versus heavy/rifle/pistol users, in my mind:
How about we make other players put thier ammo in thier quickbelt to use it?
There is already a slow down, it's the yellow regen (which was the original nerf, it used to be instant regen).
As for how fast it regens when you take one, as I said if you have specc'ed for PSI use then your mana pool already regens like a booster.
Well and why not make recycle an useful subskill worth to spend many points in it rather than attacking one class recycling ability?
This is not the right approach to the issue Q`alooaith, we already had this system in the past and it wasnt fair, hence it got changed.
You know this if you are _the_tank_ I think you were long ago.
Dont need psi boosters ? O_o
Then try to HAB 5 runners in a minute w/o boosters... good luck.
The regain is piss slow I still need to wait to get back on track WITH psi boosters.
Well if you cant clone them make them as good as they where pre psi nerf and instant gain then you would make me to stfu.
That aint a option now when anyone can be a hybrid so........
Or make all ammo non cloneable or give us monks DEX gain "if you take away the psi booster clone you wont have any option at all to cap the DEX, ooh forgot missions O_o" :lol:
Q`alooaith
04-02-04, 15:49
and so people get upset that I don't care what there emotional body's think of my idea..
the idea is to make monk's more anyoing to play, does no one see that, it's not a ballence the class Vs class ballence... it's player class type ballence...
Who want's to on and off play a monk for whom they've got to either buy booster's for, or spend much time making them? a few people maybe..
Also note, I did say all boosters, not all monk player's are so foolish to clone psi booster 3's form aything but the best junks (large Hyd part's anyone?) Psi booster 2's are dead easy to clone in large number's.. and PvM just as good, PvP will do as well, just gotta use them sooner..
I know a few people who've posted here knew my monk.. I mostly played my monk till I rerolled him.. I know what I am talking about, just as I know what I'm talking about with tank's, PE's, Spy's and the lot... I have more fun playing and rerolling than all the powerleveler's out there, because I give it all up every time, and play the game as a newbie every time.
Originally posted by t0tt3
Or make all ammo non cloneable or give us monks DEX gain "if you take away the psi booster clone you wont have any option at all to cap the DEX, ooh forgot missions O_o" :lol:
Q`alooaith that option then? How can a monk cap DEX without cloneing? And no I wont lom 2 times so I loose over 6 M in exp in INT because that aint a trip in the walk either to exp....
Originally posted by Q`alooaith
and so people get upset that I don't care what there emotional body's think of my idea..
the idea is to make monk's more anyoing to play, does no one see that, it's not a ballence the class Vs class ballence... it's player class type ballence...
Who want's to on and off play a monk for whom they've got to either buy booster's for, or spend much time making them? a few people maybe..
Also note, I did say all boosters, not all monk player's are so foolish to clone psi booster 3's form aything but the best junks (large Hyd part's anyone?) Psi booster 2's are dead easy to clone in large number's.. and PvM just as good, PvP will do as well, just gotta use them sooner..
I know a few people who've posted here knew my monk.. I mostly played my monk till I rerolled him.. I know what I am talking about, just as I know what I'm talking about with tank's, PE's, Spy's and the lot... I have more fun playing and rerolling than all the powerleveler's out there, because I give it all up every time, and play the game as a newbie every time.
Yea, what a great idea, make the game BORING and ANNOYING for a lot of players ... that wont make players leave (i soley play monks as i find them the only char to be fun. Not that they're over powered i just like em - and i was a monk before all the uberness and hybrid so no mentioning that) and cost KK even more money.
This game has a small cult following, KK cant risk losing all the monk accounts because you thinking making a class ANNOYING to play will balance out the game. Making something annoying just stupid, it would be like making the AWP in counter strike only able to buy 1 bullet at a time to cut down on whining :rolleyes:
"and so people get upset that I don't care what there emotional body's think of my idea."
If you didnt care what we thought then why did you post it? Thought youd spam up your post count a little bit more?
Ok, as I understand it Q`alooaith did not make this post in any effort to balance "combat" between the classes.
He made this post as a suggestion to balance out the "number" of monks versus other classes.
Having a greater balance of classes, in regard to quantity of runners, is not a bad thing. I don't think any of us would really mind walking into Plaza 1 and finding nearly the same amount of runners of each class. I know I wouldn't. (not that I care one way or the other really)
Anyway, the problem I have is this:
I disagree that making a class less fun to play, by forcing them to have to hide to let their mana pool regenerate while their enemy heals or finds them, or to have spend a shit load of money (especially as newbies) to buy psi boosters is just plain silly.
Then again, this is just my opinion and my understanding.
The idea wouldnt improve the balance of classes, it just makes the class more annoying to play, less comfortable.
First is necessary to see why there are so many monks over other classes... then ask yourself why making boosters unclonnable would change this.
Original monk
04-02-04, 16:36
Originally posted by Sleawer
The idea wouldnt improve the balance of classes, it just makes the class more annoying to play
indeed: didnt they made the monkclass (hybrid in particular) annoying enough allready ?
i got an even better idea: get rid of pisboosters3: let them daamn monks yust wait till there manna raised again...
then even less people gonna play, and less people playing monk = more fun in general ... or thats how people seem to think lately
if we cant get them nerfed to DEAD, we can yust annoy em to dead right :)
Originally posted by Sleawer
The idea wouldnt improve the balance of classes, it just makes the class more annoying to play, less comfortable.
First is necessary to see why there are so many monks over other classes... then ask yourself why making boosters unclonnable would change this.
You're right! The idea wouldn't balance the classes as far as combat efectiveness, however it "could" deter some from playing monks by forcing them to either quit or play some other char type.
While quitting is not what Q`alooaith has in mind, I don't believe, for people to do, making a class annoying to play is not the answer to reducing the number of monks in the game.
This last point, reducing the number of monks, is what Q is after, I believe.
However, as stated before by many, this is not a viable solution to the problem of having too many monks.
Q states in this thread that the removal of the cloning of psi boosters is the way to "get right to [the] heart's (of psi monks)". Well this is not true. So what if monks can cast all day if they know how to use psi boosters? They still have to put more in their quickbelts when they run out, no other class has to that with their ammo. The problem, I think, is their importance. APU's for damage and debuffing PPU's and PPU's for para (nerfed :p), keeping people alive, and resurrecting them when they die.
Anyway, if KK decides they want to reduce the number of monks playing then something else needs to be done. Taking the fun out of playing a monk by doing what Q has suggested is not the anwer.
Just a clarification...
I'm not saying combat effectiveness. The idea would not affect the necessity of monks in the game, period. And with monks still being essential in team-fights the number of monks would not be reduced. I talk this because it was the system in past, everyone could recycle ammo except monks, and it didnt change anything.
Hope I explained myself better now.
With the rest of your post I agree completely.
That makes sense.
I miss the days when psi boosters worked like stamina boosters and filled up your mana immediately.
Good times! Good times!
lol
i want to play this game not spend hours consting them or waste thousands buying them
Welcome to the wonderful world of droners . . .
spikeownzu
05-02-04, 05:26
NOOOOOOOOOOO
NOOOOOOOO
NO
NO AND NO
NONO NONONONO NONO NOO
NO MORE MONK NERF
Psycho Killa
05-02-04, 05:42
Originally posted by Q`alooaith
Lol...
Point to a gun who's ammo regen's..
Sure ill let a cs get 1 bullet every 10 seconds that will help wont it?
Besided only leveling monks clone boosters it wont help the problem at all just hurt low level monks.
Make boosters instant. And THEN make them unclonable.
NO... your also forgetting that cloning is the easiest way for noob monks to lvl thei dex too! nib :p
A big assed NO...
Sorry - I don't see how this would solve any problems.
You dont clone boosters, you buy em - so?
They are cheaper - so?
All this will do is make it more annoying to play a monk - nothing more. It will solve nothing at all.
fuckn ****** idea
so remove ammo cloneable too
damn this idea suckz so mutch
Q`alooaith
05-02-04, 12:49
people still miss the point..
The idea is to make playing a monk more of a challenge... Less fun for anyone who's not into playing a monk for their real benifits..
It's not meant to fix and ballence issuse, as in damage or such, it's meant to ballence the number of people who want to play monks...
BTW, can anyone think of more than two line's to say on this.. rather dull to hear people say it sucks.. it suck's [insert appendge name]...
be imaganative, there are so many nasty thing's you can say about this idea..
I can see the truth, people saying it won't affect them will be hardest hit, people saying it won't fix anything will stop playing monks as a result...
Oh what joy to see though you all..
Also, my idea on clonning changes can be found here (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89810&perpage=15&pagenumber=1) in case you where wondering about ammo..
@Q`alooaith
These things just implanted if you play monk class you should know shouldnt you?
Nerf range... done
Nerf dmg... done
Nerf speed... done
Nerf PSI imps... done
And you want to nerf them even more? Get real
:rolleyes:
Rofl Q`alooaith, people not playing their monks or rerolling because psi boosters are not clonnable again....
Seriously...
Completely pointless idea.
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