View Full Version : Implanting, where's the risk? (idea, implanting changes)
Q`alooaith
04-02-04, 11:41
Ok, here's somthing that's alway's ticked me off a little..
A hacker who muff's a hack get's shocked, a conster who's skill's too low can break the item's he's makeing, or make it poorly, a researcher can break data cube's and rarepart's if he muck's up...
An implanter, a street doctor, who's resposible for putting implant's into your head don't have enough skill, and they simply don't do it.. and they can either do a job or can't..
Now here's my idea..
Make Implant a real tradskill, where you can try if your level with the TL of the imp, but you'll have a chance to fail, no failing would cause damage to the person your implanting, now the higher level implant's would have to do more damage for a failure...
Now diffrent imp spot's could cause diffrent ammount's of damage, muck up a foot and it's gonna hurt but no real harm, muck up a brain or spine and there's going to be a lot of damage, maybe have implanting cause "damage" while going in, so higher level implant's that take a long time could have the potential to kill an unwary implantee...
Also note, implanting skill would be changed so it's 0.8 (80%) implant skill 0.15 (15%) dex and 0.05 (5%) int based... and chances of fail's based on that.. so monk's don't rule to roost on it totaly, but can do as well, just need a little more imp..
so what do ya think...
Edit.. So you know, you'd not be able to try and implant anything above your skill level jsut because of the changes, you'd still need at least the TL of the implant to try.. Also, these changes would make implanting a real skill where people go away to get the imping done, rather than stand about and get it done poorly with high chances of fail, meaning good imper's would fianly get paid for their service..
.....make failed implant cause SI ? Drugflash ?
Critical implantation failure = death ? SI + Drugflash ?
Lana DarkWolf
04-02-04, 11:49
Umm not sure, but i can see a lot of problems coming with people & their MC5 imps, say if another chip falls out (not the mc5) & they get it re-implanted........but it fails and they take enough damage to actually die, that could mean MC5s being damaged one hell of a lot more couldnt it?
Would also mean that pokers able to actually poke MC5s in successfully are gonna be even rare too.......:(
that would put a real damper on getting tips if you kill your client ...LOL ... actually I think maybe if you were to majorly fail it should drop condition on the item itself . . if it was just a simple muck up . then maybe some small dmg and synap hit (with a cool animation of the person falling to their knees with their hands on their head and a screaming sound :D )
if it was death . .you might see lots of dead bodies around from people who were getting mc5 chips implanted :p
Dribble Joy
04-02-04, 11:52
Nice idea, but could possibly fuck up many (including mine) PEs main/only form of income. Without poking I cannot sustain my chronic redflash addiction.
I poke tll 115, as in I have (with buff and glove) IMP 115, with only 109 dex (with the glove pa and redflash) and only about 71 int. Poking mc5 chips would probably become far far to risly to even contemplate, thus rendering my independance redundant.
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
Nice idea, but could possibly fuck up many (including mine) PEs main/only form of income. Without poking I cannot sustain my chronic redflash addiction.
I poke tll 115, as in I have (with buff and glove) IMP 115, with only 109 dex (with the glove pa and redflash) and only about 71 int. Poking mc5 chips would probably become far far to risly to even contemplate, thus rendering my independance redundant.
Go hunting :D
Only way I get money :wtf:
200 - 400 K income from a few hours of just killing mobs.. not even selling what they drop.. ^^
Heavyporker
04-02-04, 11:55
I quite like this idea.. ooooh yes... you'd definitely use battlefield medics and street doctors a LOT more carefully now...
death would be a bit harsh though... realistic, yes... what the hell, i say let it go in.
Q`alooaith
04-02-04, 11:55
Originally posted by Lana DarkWolf
Umm not sure, but i can see a lot of problems coming with people & their MC5 imps, say if another chip falls out (not the mc5) & they get it re-implanted........but it fails and they take enough damage to actually die, that could mean MC5s being damaged one hell of a lot more couldnt it?
Would also mean that pokers able to actually poke MC5s in successfully are gonna be even rare too.......:(
And you say this like it's a bad thing?
MC5 poker's are rare, because the chip's are rare, but these idea's would mean there would be more people able to poke MC5, due to needing more poke to get a lesser chance of fail on other implant's, like the more common rare one's, though they'd fail MC5's a bit.. but then can't have it all good now can you?
also, mean's people would have to recover a little before getting poked, and it'd be best to do it in a medicare near a rec unit so you can get health back...
The idea is to make implanting a tradskill, you can fail when researching, consting and hacking, and are punished for failing, why not implanting.. why are all implanter's past a certain skill level assumed to be good enough never to fail, and never be punished..
While the idea in principle is funky, it'd probably just mess up the gaming experience for those amongst us who don't want to be in large clans.
Why, I can hear you ask?
Simply because, just like researching and constructing, over time there would probably be less and less good pokers around, in the beginning it might be quite filled with them, but eventually they realize they're really not getting good money back for gimping their characters and retreat to just doing work for their clan.
Personally, if impant were to have any effect, the only effect I'd like it to have would be to make people with high impant skills poke faster, which is useful for defending clans if they just got decimated and start defending their next outpost, they'd get combat viable quicker.
if this is put in .. must punish the cloners . .anything in reycle :D .. you clone ammo and eventhough it seems likethe right ammo you put it in and it breaks your gun cause it was badly cloned or that medkit you cloned was actually a fatal poison that intoxicates you to your knees and when it runs out . . you fall over dead
Q`alooaith
04-02-04, 12:01
Originally posted by amfest
if this is put in .. must punish the cloners . .anything in reycle :D .. you clone ammo and eventhough it seems likethe right ammo you put it in and it breaks your gun cause it was badly cloned or that medkit you cloned was actually a fatal poison that intoxicates you to your knees and when it runs out . . you fall over dead
That's not a bad idea realy.. maybe make the medikit not a deadly posion, just like a low level posion ball attack, cause if your munching a medikit chances are your not in a healthy way..
*wander off to make thread*
Q`alooaith
04-02-04, 13:36
anyway back to implanting..
The idea is to get implanting into the same tradskill area as hacking and consting... If implanting was harder, people would need it badly enough to pay for it properly, the pentaly's for failure would change depending on what your getting poked.. backbones, heart's and brain and eye impant's should be risky to do, and bone enforcment's pretty much less risk, still a stinging ouch if they fail (alone with an ouchy implanting, rather than make it painless, so you get damage while the implant is going in, and at the end if it fail's you get stung with damage from it)
When's the last time anyone lost more than 3 hp from a failed hack =-P
Q`alooaith
04-02-04, 13:51
Originally posted by Melkior
When's the last time anyone lost more than 3 hp from a failed hack =-P
That's a point...
Maybe make hack failure parashock the hacker.. maybe also put a malus on hacking skill's a for a time as well.. As well as sting them for about 30HP each failed hack, maybe more, it'd have to depend on hack TL..
That's a point...
sounds like another poll post to make for you Q`alooaith :p
MjukisDjur
04-02-04, 13:58
make people drop dead due to infection if poke fails. HA
Q`alooaith
04-02-04, 13:59
Originally posted by amfest
sounds like another poll post to make for you Q`alooaith :p
Naaa, I won't push my luck too far on poll's.. I'm trying for one of the mod position's so don't want to be pushing my luck too far ATM...
hacker's should realy suffer biger penlaty's for failing don't you think though.. more damage thoguh def...
Implanting low level stuff should not have much a chance of causing fatal failure, though heart's, backbones, and brain stuff should all carry big risk's for implanting...
SL, if you fail to implant somone properly and they die, should you lose SL? I'd say yes... though bassed on current SL rules..
Originally posted by MjukisDjur
make people drop dead due to infection if poke fails. HA
Naaa, only do they if they don't have any implant dissinfectant gel... :p
Though I'd do it as a posion stack that last's 2 min's and tick's as fast as a fire stack..
Originally posted by Q`alooaith
SL, if you fail to implant somone properly and they die, should you lose SL? I'd say yes... though bassed on current SL rules.. The problem with that would be that with the current implanting system the poker has no idea what the TL of the item s/he's implanting is, so people would probably use it to kill lower level pokers by making them implant something they can barely implant.
I'm in favour of changes.
I feel that Pokers have it easy. Make it harder for them. Make the rewards greater for being a good one too. Point and Click is basic and assumes too much in my opinion. Lets have a nice game to play. Even if you were just hacking the implants into the neural interface.
There should be an element fo risk also. But I agree with other posters that that element would have to be increased for other tradeskillers in order to justify it being implemented.
J. Folsom
.. the person who would die is the one being poked . not the poker themselves . .. though the poker could take a SI hit
Q`alooaith
04-02-04, 14:07
Originally posted by J. Folsom
The problem with that would be that with the current implanting system the poker has no idea what the TL of the item s/he's implanting is, so people would probably use it to kill lower level pokers by making them implant something they can barely implant.
No no no no....
You missed the mark totaly..
The poker does not suffer damage, the person who is getting the implant put in them suffer's damage... Not the poker..
Ok, so the poker doe's not suffer any damage from poking, this is why poker's would gain more respect and be more willing to skill, more people willing to pay better for known poker's, because a bad poker could kill you by mucking up, a good poker won't muck up so often, so might not kill you..
would be even grander if on the city com you could look up pokers who have had the greatest success in implants and how many failures they have had :D
Originally posted by Q`alooaith
No no no no....
You missed the mark totaly.. Actually, you did :p
I was specifically commenting on the lowering of soullight if the customer dies, indirectly killing the poker due to him becoming a target of the COPBots.
Q`alooaith
04-02-04, 14:23
The SL loss would not be -100 for failing, it'd be like if you'd killed the player.. It'd be a little loss..
And the thought come's to mind.. why would somone want to greif a poker? esp considering that they'd need to get the HP low enough that the fail would kill them, which any good poker would be healing them for so they don't just drop dead..
The idea is not to insta kill anyone though failed pokes, a implant would damage the implantee while going in, and if it fail's sting with another hit..
darkservent
04-02-04, 14:28
great idea. Makes a game more realistic. On top KK could put a sort of a small hospital to carry out implantin and only carry it out there instead of ur normal plaza 1.
Originally posted by Q`alooaith
The SL loss would not be -100 for failing, it'd be like if you'd killed the player.. It'd be a little loss..
And the thought come's to mind.. why would somone want to greif a poker? esp considering that they'd need to get the HP low enough that the fail would kill them, which any good poker would be healing them for so they don't just drop dead..
The idea is not to insta kill anyone though failed pokes, a implant would damage the implantee while going in, and if it fail's sting with another hit.. I'm just trying to argue about it to stimulate you into further working out your ideas :p
More useful for KK that way. ;)
Anyway, I actually quite like it now I think about it.
Bah! no drom option!!
And I can imagine it now - peeps could run around an literally poke people to death :D
I poke, and to a degree I agree... But rather than just straight forward damage on a fail, a particularly critical fail should give a poison stack called "infection", that doesn't tick down and can only be removed with drugs :)
This way a street doctor really is a street DOCTOR, giving pokes, and medicating those he messes up.
The infection stack should be critical enough that it can kill a capped tank in about 10 minutes. Then you'll have some people staggering around the wastelands chugging medkits because the drugs to cure an infection are only sold in a few shops.
Steve
P.S. Application of heavy meds (a fully healing medkit that gives a heal effect for 3 seconds) and anti-infection should be dependent on either a current skill, or a new "medic" skill.
/me starts a street doc thread.
Q`alooaith
04-02-04, 14:50
Originally posted by GT_Rince
Bah! no drom option!!
Because I don't give two hoot's about droms, this is a poll about implanting and my idea's on the changes to said system..
I made a poll a time ago about how monk's where overpowered and what was the best fix, and people complained that there was no option if they didn't think monk's where overpowered.. The poll was to see what people wanted to do about overpowered monks, there was also no nothing option, why because I didn't care I just wanted feedback on my ideas..
This is why I don't give a drom option, and why my maybe is always Maybe/Own idea, there's no need for anything more..
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Mingeroo, read a little bit down.. the damage would be done while implanting as well, so implanting causes damage, and a fail just causes a tone more at the end..
I like your idea on infection... Though maybe need implant skill and a tool to remove it, or an expesive drug.. lower level imps' should not cause it.. Maybe only for bone imps though..
Q...
Rince might like his Drom option, and I do belive it is his right to select that option, but you do need to have an abstainace vote for your poll to be worth anything.
Rince has also made a very valid point. People would mess up pokes in order to annoy people they didn't like. You now need to take this into consideration In your discussion.
Personally I think the discussion is going the wrong way. I agree that a change should be made, but what you're proposing isn't the way forward in my opinion. We need to Change that horrid poke tool for a start and make it visible on your avatar so people would stop kneeling near me when I have a spell equipped. Then you need to look at the method. I don't think clicking on someone does the process justice, and like I said earlier it assumes too much. I don't think there should be SL loss for any part of this process, be it for the customer or vendor. That's just silly since the current system doesn't work properly anyway. Synapse as a result of each poke is a maybe. People are generally synapsed when they come for pokes anyway. Why should their wait be prolonged anymore?
The infection idea however I love. This should be implemented as a percentage chance of every poke. So something like one in 15 pokes will give you infection after a certain tech level (n00bs aren't gonna be able to get the drugs). Why not make a run for the drugs? Make a mid-level cave type run with a chest of drugs at the end that you need to hack or something. Maybe full of mutants in an abandoned hospital sort of theme. As long as the infection don't kill you for a period of 3 days or something that would be cool. It would probably give mid-level runners a bit of business as well as a place to level.
Bottom line though. The point and click needs to go. I would be in favour of a mini-game of sorts similar to the hacking game so people have a chance of getting it wrong at any level and invoking a consequence.
Keep discussing!
I've always wanted a different type of mini game for each tradeskill also . . and more points in the trade would help to make the game easier just like hack . .. so constructors would play a game to assemble the parts .. researchers would have to carefully examine something without dmg to it . .. repairers would have to move to certain points on the weapon or whatever within a certain time limit or something . . reyclers would umm ... errr . .. .umm n/m :p
Q`alooaith
04-02-04, 15:38
Vortice.. Have you any idea how to take a poll properly..
If people want to abstain, then they don't have to vote, simple as that. I don't care how many people don't want to vote, I only care about weather they like the idea or not, or if they like it but only "if....."
I'm not taking a poll to see who like to sex dead droms, I'm not taking a poll to see who wants to vote or not, I'm talking a poll to find out what people think of MY idea's, no other infomation is needed, you like the idea, yes, no, maybe with these changes...
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Now onto poking again..
I agree with making to tool visible, I dissagree with all else.
The point is to make high level implant a viable skill, to do this there is now damager if you get poked by a rank amature, though to stop greif only people with a skill and tool of level TL with the imp you want poking can try, thus there's a chance they'' do good, also, you don't have implant's drag from invetory, so you don't want somone to poke you don't put the implant into the processor, if you want to be poked put it in and take the chance...
The SL loss is only if the person being poked dies, this is not a SL loss for failure, or for poking, it's if the guy dies' from your shoddy poke..
superfresh
04-02-04, 16:05
Not sure about the dmg/death penalty, since the customer will already have gone through the impairment seeing if it goes in...
how 'bout this -
1) Make it like research, where it fails a couple of times if the poker is low TL, and maybe even breaks (100% durability) after the third try (but can be repaired).
or
2) Make the imp lose a little durability every time the poker fails.
Anyway, I voted yes.
First, the PITIFUL experience you get from poking justifies its ease. Look at all of the skills that have no real risk involved- Hacking, Poking, Recycle- how much experience do you get from them? Virtually none. Granted, Poking gives good exp when you poke yourself...
But otherwise the low risk is due to LOW REWARD. You can NOT compare Poking to Construction, as Construction has a risk AND it rewards you for that risk. You get good Int, Dex, and Str exp from construction. And research gives good Int experience.
So dont even consider increasing risk of poking without increasing rewards.
Now, onto the idea-
SL loss for the poker is a bad idea. No other tradeskill can cause the skiller to get negative SL. That makes NO sense. And as it was pointed out, someone can use their MC5 chip to make have a poker kill them, and then the poker takes a SL hit. Boooooo.
Maybe have it decrease the quality of the imp.
But as it is now worded, for the fact that there is no increase in the reward for poking being advocated, I vote no.
Man if they that into the game I would put 5 points into poking and then poke all the city folk I hate.
What I would like for pokers is other tools. Like a detox tool (pokes detox nanites to remove drug haze).
An interesting idea but considering the difficulty finding ANY
pokers at certain times of day, I don't think the server populations
could support a change like this yet.
Forget My Name
04-02-04, 16:39
A constructor gets paid millions for building a multi slotted rare.
A poker gets a pat on the back and maybe 50k for mc5.
no thanks. that and the experience gain is tiny.
oh yeah, hackers get NO downfall for failing. You telling me that the 3 damage a hacker MIGHT get shocked for is a drawback?
I think implanters are fine, it is researchers that need something better...
Good idea, but poking is fine as it is.
Originally posted by Q`alooaith
Because I don't give two hoot's about droms, this is a poll about implanting and my idea's on the changes to said system..
I made a poll a time ago about how monk's where overpowered and what was the best fix, and people complained that there was no option if they didn't think monk's where overpowered.. The poll was to see what people wanted to do about overpowered monks, there was also no nothing option, why because I didn't care I just wanted feedback on my ideas..
Time to hand out the Sense of Humor pills I see... Try lightning up a little u miserable git :rolleyes:
Q`alooaith
04-02-04, 17:30
Ok, no one read's anymore..
They can't be reading the thread at all..
I said that poking would not cause SI, I said that you'd need at least the TL of the item you where poking in, so poking a MC5 would still need a whole lot of poke..
You'd not be able to wander aroudnw tih 5 poke and try and poke any item higher TL of 5, and if they've got nout in processor nothing happens..
The SL thing is if you let the guy die.. Chance's of killing someone are low, yea the idea is to implment damage while the implant is going in to the implantee (I don't belive I have to explain all the simple details) and a extra sting if the implant fail's... the damage for most implant's would still be pretty low, you'd still need a tool of high enough TL to poke an item, so somone comming to you with a MC5 to be poked saying it's a zerker 2, you poke them with a lower tl tool and nothing happen's..
I didn't say that the damage caused by failing would be mega huge.. maybe 3 point's per item TL... and while the implant's going in maybe 2 point's a second untill it either get's in, or fails..
OK - you want some feedback on it? I think it is a stupid ass idea... Like KK don't have enough to think about atm anyways. :rolleyes:
Psyco Groupie
04-02-04, 17:36
jesus people.
can you think of anything more anoying:
you need to rush back to an op fight, but instead you catch this dumbass infection and have to get a medic .. or the others sudjestions ... a drugflash .. yeah tis fun to fight with a drugflash ..
this might be 'fun' or remotely quirky .. but it'd get old very fast imo
Originally posted by Q`alooaith
Ok, no one read's anymore..
They can't be reading the thread at all..
I said that poking would not cause SI, I said that you'd need at least the TL of the item you where poking in, so poking a MC5 would still need a whole lot of poke..
You'd not be able to wander aroudnw tih 5 poke and try and poke any item higher TL of 5, and if they've got nout in processor nothing happens..
The SL thing is if you let the guy die.. Chance's of killing someone are low, yea the idea is to implment damage while the implant is going in to the implantee (I don't belive I have to explain all the simple details) and a extra sting if the implant fail's... the damage for most implant's would still be pretty low, you'd still need a tool of high enough TL to poke an item, so somone comming to you with a MC5 to be poked saying it's a zerker 2, you poke them with a lower tl tool and nothing happen's..
I didn't say that the damage caused by failing would be mega huge.. maybe 3 point's per item TL... and while the implant's going in maybe 2 point's a second untill it either get's in, or fails.. You still didnt address my main beef- the fact that imping has ULTRA low rewards in terms of experience. Your plan so far does nothing to compensate for the increase in risk/annoyance/failure involved with the process.
And once you address that, dont forget that the highest possible imp you can have in game is a monk foreign casting spy booster 3 on a capped spy with 100% of his points in Int and a SS CPU, Hawkings, and Imp glove- and that comes out to 216 imp. No Ops for imps. No other imps for imp. So thats another imbalance that would have to be dealt with if you raise the risk...
Q`alooaith
04-02-04, 17:38
No one listen to my idea then!
I didn't suggest drugflash, somone else did..
I didn't suggest SI, somone else did...
I didn't suggest infection, somone else did... (though I kinda like the idea in a way, though I'd change it a lot)
Originally posted by Q`alooaith
No one listen to my idea then!
No stomping feet now...
I think the general concensus is that it would be a bad idea. It is Neocron, not ER ! No, there should be no penalty for failing pokes' no penalty or drug flash, it should not be made any more awkward than it already is as pokers don't really make much money to do it full time like cst or res.
Q`alooaith
04-02-04, 17:48
Originally posted by GT_Rince
No stomping feet now...
I think the general concensus is that it would be a bad idea. It is Neocron, not ER ! No, there should be no penalty for failing pokes' no penalty or drug flash, it should not be made any more awkward than it already is as pokers don't really make much money to do it full time like cst or res.
You quote me yet fail to read all that I wrote..
Has somone removed some of oyur grey matter? do you need some help with the big words?
If you'd read, these idea's, done in the way I, that's ME and ME suggest thenh it'd work rather well at improving implanting as a true tradeskill.
Originally posted by Q`alooaith
You quote me yet fail to read all that I wrote..
Has somone removed some of oyur grey matter? do you need some help with the big words?
If you'd read, these idea's, done in the way I, that's ME and ME suggest thenh it'd work rather well at improving implanting as a true tradeskill.
My my my, arn't we angry today :rolleyes:
The stopming feet part was referring to you - that is where you finished in my post. The bit underneath was a generalisation of the other 'ideas' that had been posted.
I STILL think it is a dumb ass idea - my perogative :)
Oh, and if you are trying for a MOD position, I hardly think that insulting peeps is what they are gonna want to see - you need to be able to act with a little more maturity, not jump in with both feet, just because you didn't understand what I posted :)
Strych9 summed it up pretty well...
Low Risk, Low Reward........
Please don't try and kill off Pokers.......
On some servers it's hard enough to find them as it is......
Maybe if poking was more interesting/challenging then more people would be inclined to poke and of course the rewards would rise as a result.
I disagree that there is no reward to poking though.
It's very good as a first tradeskill for XP and my G/F's poker before she lommed would make a packet in an hour. I don't know what tips are like on your server but when there's a shortage of pokers on ours, people regularly pay 10k for a click of a mouse and the right amount of points in the subskill.
I used to get less tips on my constructor and he wasn't bad in the slightest.
Reason why u don't see any pokers or researchers knocking about in the usual haunts is because the tradeskill is tedious and boring. They both need to be made more interesting for people to want to play them in my opinion.
I agree with Rince and Strych that your ideas are lacking in invention and the proposed penalties are plain silly. You could bring other things into the equation, but SL is not the answer I'm afraid.
Take this one on the chin Q and go back to the drawing board. Rince and Strych aren't slagging u off, just giving positive criticism like I'm doing.
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