Remove TC req from stealth [Archive] - Official Neocron Forum

Biznatchy

03-02-04, 20:16

You want spies to be the only ones to stealth then just pony up and put spy only on the freaking thing. Why punish the spies that just want to use pain easer and have repair or slavage as a second trade skill.

Or do you think with more agility a spy can stand toe to toe with a dev or cs tank?

For all you pe's out there that think you need stealth maybe leave the level one stealth as is. But i dont see why a pe needs stealth.

naimex

03-02-04, 20:18

Originally posted by Biznatchy
You want spies to be the only ones to stealth then just pony up and put spy only on the freaking thing. Why punish the spies that just want to use pain easer and have repair or slavage as a second trade skill.

Or do you think with more agility a spy can stand toe to toe with a dev or cs tank?

For all you pe's out there that think you need stealth maybe leave the level one stealth as is. But i dont see why a pe needs stealth.

because a pe takes 50 - 240 dmg from 1 burst from a cs ?

and maybe wanna get far away from the tank as possible ?

just guessing...

Devils Grace

03-02-04, 20:21

2 WORDS

FUCK NO

u want to use a device that gives u the ability to be invisible for 60 secs or 10 secs for PE's u should fucking gimp ur self and use important dex points in order to achieve it...

this is for spy's or PE's i think the same for both

shodanjr_gr

03-02-04, 21:33

Originally posted by naimex
because a pe takes 50 - 240 dmg from 1 burst from a cs ?

and maybe wanna get far away from the tank as possible ?

just guessing...

lol im sorry naimex but i cant think of any PE that takes 240 dmg from a CS burst.

<edit> and on the topic. I am against this change. As it was totally correctly said by DG if a spy wants God Mode for 20-60 secs he SHOULD gimp himself. The insane TC req is what keeps the obliterator from being used by all spies out there.

naimex

03-02-04, 21:36

Originally posted by shodanjr_gr
lol im sorry naimex but i cant think of any PE that takes 240 dmg from a CS burst.

saw it in NF... dunno what happened but took 2/3 of healthbar and showed 240 dmg on him...

but still..

shodanjr_gr

03-02-04, 21:37

Originally posted by naimex
saw it in NF... dunno what happened but took 2/3 of healthbar and showed 240 dmg on him...

but still..

Its not possible i think.

Unless we are talking about a PE with a TON of HP but zero resists (i mean totally zero) no armor, no shelter casted. In that case it MIGHT be possible. Most half-decent PEs take form 50-60 damage from a CS burst i think.

Judge

03-02-04, 21:37

No way. Just..... no. :eek:

Rade

03-02-04, 21:44

No. More tech toys, not less.

retr0n

03-02-04, 21:45

Originally posted by Devils Grace
2 WORDS

FUCK NO

nuff said.

Biznatchy

03-02-04, 22:35

Originally posted by naimex
because a pe takes 50 - 240 dmg from 1 burst from a cs ?

and maybe wanna get far away from the tank as possible ?

just guessing...

That might be with shelter down and armor off zero resist.

For the rest of you.

You guys are just haters.

Rade

03-02-04, 22:37

Originally posted by Biznatchy
You guys are just haters.

No, not really. Its simple, if you want something, you pay for it.

Biznatchy

03-02-04, 22:49

Originally posted by Rade
No, not really. Its simple, if you want something, you pay for it.

I want my spy to have a remote chance of being able to go outside his apt and live. What do I have to pay for that?

Give up on being able to repair and research. I already cant use a wep very well due to the wep lore crap so might as well go repair but if i want to be able to hunt warbots. Now I need to put a ton in TC, even though I only use a pain easer, just to survive the gankers.

g0rt

03-02-04, 22:54

Originally posted by Devils Grace
2 WORDS

FUCK NO

u want to use a device that gives u the ability to be invisible for 60 secs or 10 secs for PE's u should fucking gimp ur self and use important dex points in order to achieve it...

this is for spy's or PE's i think the same for both

Hahahha

owned

Nothing to add to this.

Rade

03-02-04, 22:55

Well, yeah. Just like I said, if you want stealth than you pay for it,
just like you pay for any tradeskill, weapon or utility. You can still
have stealth and repair and research you will just be worse for
every extra feature you put it. What do you want, be expert at
everything in the game? :rolleyes:

alig

03-02-04, 23:00

It isnt just the spy that gets ganked, a tank would easily be ganked if hes hunting [we dont run around with our pvp armour on btw:rolleyes:] as ur saying thats wot u specced t-c for, right, so why complain?

ElfinLord

03-02-04, 23:05

If you are so worried about gankers then you probably should have left your LE in. :rolleyes:

This game is all about specialization. If you want to be good everything you can't.

QuantumDelta

03-02-04, 23:16

A) Why would a TECH TOOL have no T-C Req?
B) WTF *are* you chatting about? It's easy for the Spy to use a decent tech rifle and have decent runspeed/okay resists.
C) What's wrong with PEs having Stealth IF ITS NOT ABUSED?

Seriously.
Cure the disease, don't kill the patient.

shodanjr_gr

03-02-04, 23:37

•Super|\|ova•

03-02-04, 23:50

This idea totally sucks ass... sorry dude. It just simpy sucks ass...

Psychoninja

04-02-04, 00:01

Did you even think the about it from different points of view before you posted o_O

Biznatchy

04-02-04, 07:01

Originally posted by Psychoninja
Did you even think the about it from different points of view before you posted o_O

Yes i thought about it from many points of view but not the point of view that people like ganking spies and dont want to give up easy prey, and thus fight people that shoot back.

t0rqu3

04-02-04, 07:07

Psychoninja

04-02-04, 07:21

Originally posted by Biznatchy
Yes i thought about it from many points of view but not the point of view that people like ganking spies and dont want to give up easy prey, and thus fight people that shoot back.

o_O

Fine, I'll agree with the, remove T-C idea if you agree with removing MST from APU spells :rolleyes:

Stealth is optional, it's not a necessity. If you need the extra points, don't use T-C since all you claim to use it a PE. Simple solution without having to change the game to benefit one person.

Biznatchy

04-02-04, 08:38

Originally posted by Psychoninja
o_O

Fine, I'll agree with the, remove T-C idea if you agree with removing MST from APU spells :rolleyes:

Stealth is optional, it's not a necessity. If you need the extra points, don't use T-C since all you claim to use it a PE. Simple solution without having to change the game to benefit one person.

OK the basic idea here was make stealth easyier for spies to get without boatloads of TC. For non tech spies that have repair or salvage or vhc use then getting 80 or more tech really sucks when you need 63 vhc and 75 in repair and still want to have construction skills. I dont see how anyone would think this would come close to even bridging the PVP gap between spies and anyothere class. What you think that if spies go stealth without TC they would become "da uber pvp monsters" that monks already.

Rade you said if you want somthing you have to give somthing up. What exactly does your PE give up. better defense then a tank with shelter holy def. Comparable damage output to all but the apu. And to top it off PE still can stealth if they dont go the pure libby route. But if they do go just libby then they are so fast they dont need to stealth even with wep out. Please dont tell me that tradeskill spies dont know what gimping themselves mean.

Biznatchy

04-02-04, 08:42

Originally posted by QuantumDelta
C) What's wrong with PEs having Stealth IF ITS NOT ABUSED?

Sometimes I wonder if QD is playing the same game the rest of us are. What doesnt get abused, its the nature of mmpog, to exploit and abuse whatever you get your hands on.

Heavyporker

04-02-04, 08:42

Thumbs..... down.

Its a technological tool... the item isn't totally useless, the t-c isnt totally wasted, the applications aren't trival...

I see no need to change the stealth tools.. except making the obliterator last a bit longer.

Biznatchy

04-02-04, 08:49

Originally posted by Heavyporker
Thumbs..... down.

Its a technological tool... the item isn't totally useless, the t-c isnt totally wasted, the applications aren't trival...

I see no need to change the stealth tools.. except making the obliterator last a bit longer.

Well it looks the same as a Hack Tool, Hack tool doesnt need TC.
Wait the CST TOOL is a tech item it doesnt need TC.
OMG the Research TOOL is a tech item doesnt need TC.

Wait Tech COMBAT where is the combat in Stealth.

Salvage Tool is a technological tool also hmmmm no TC requirment there either.

should we keep going on this.

Heavyporker

04-02-04, 08:52

I think you're forgetting something there...

think on it, maybe you'll see it.

amfest

04-02-04, 09:03

so you only use your stealth tool at plaza or your apt? ..hmm what tradeskill does a stealth tool fall under .. hmm . .. oh wait .. it gets used in COMBAT situations . . . to either escape it or set yourself up for surprise

TheGreatMilenko

04-02-04, 09:13

Originally posted by amfest
so you only use your stealth tool at plaza or your apt? ..hmm what tradeskill does a stealth tool fall under .. hmm . .. oh wait .. it gets used in COMBAT situations . . . to either escape it or set yourself up for surprise

haha ownd:lol:

Psychoninja

04-02-04, 09:26

Originally posted by Biznatchy
OK the basic idea here was make stealth easyier for spies to get without boatloads of TC. For non tech spies that have repair or salvage or vhc use then getting 80 or more tech really sucks when you need 63 vhc and 75 in repair and still want to have construction skills. I dont see how anyone would think this would come close to even bridging the PVP gap between spies and anyothere class. What you think that if spies go stealth without TC they would become "da uber pvp monsters" that monks already.

Ok, let me put it for you in simple terms. You're either a tradeskiller, or a PvPer. You can't do both to their full extent. You're going to have to sacrifice one or another, the game is built on specializing.

And, not spies won't become uber PvP monsters, tbh, even with the current T-C nerf the the stealth tools received, it makes a difference in char setup.

Original monk

04-02-04, 09:44

hehe, let tc stay on a "hitech"tool :)

i think its 2 bad they gimped the obliterator to 60 secs, i liked the 90 seconds :) (press the obliterator and yust turn on autowalk :P )

but as raid says: "No. More tech toys, not less."

and i agree with that :)

and naimex: a pe has extreme well defense and heals up in no time, i mean: they realy dont need stealth lol, but anyway, i dont care if they use the gimped stealth 1 :) im glad they cant use stealth 2 nomore, or not decently ...

J. Folsom

04-02-04, 10:06

With the new requirements...

Stealth 1 can be used by any high-tech spy (Which, last I checked, is roughly 95% of the spies in the game), stealth 2 needs a little bit more (90 T-C, think that's one point more in T-C then you'd need purely for the weapons if you want to use all of them).

Stealth 3 and Obliterator now need 95 and 100 T-C respectively, counting a SF, that means 95 points in TC, or 11 points more then you need for the weapons alone, that's 33 skill points, which really isn't that much.

As for the whole "Stealth isn't combat" thing, just because you don't whack someone over the head with it doesn't mean it's not combat.

naimex

04-02-04, 12:01

Originally posted by Original monk

and naimex: a pe has extreme well defense and heals up in no time, i mean: they realy dont need stealth lol, but anyway, i dont care if they use the gimped stealth 1 :) im glad they cant use stealth 2 nomore, or not decently ...

Ye they can heal pretty fast.. but the heal they get can be pulled of in 1 successfull burst.. (3-4/4 blobs hit)

so i dont take their heal as a threat.

•Super|\|ova•

04-02-04, 12:44

Originally posted by Biznatchy
Well it looks the same as a Hack Tool, Hack tool doesnt need TC.
Wait the CST TOOL is a tech item it doesnt need TC.
OMG the Research TOOL is a tech item doesnt need TC.

Wait Tech COMBAT where is the combat in Stealth.

Salvage Tool is a technological tool also hmmmm no TC requirment there either.

should we keep going on this.

Dude. Seriously. What are you on? Your arguments are weak and childish. Either bring on some REAL arguments or be quiet about it.

QuantumDelta

04-02-04, 13:20

No, I'm probably not playing the same game you are.

See, I play fairly, and sometimes that means I die, when I wouldn't have to.
I do my job(s) ingame with honour, and go about things in ways that sometimes leads to me being stabbed in the back (....uhh repeatedly) so I guess if it counts I'm probably not playing the same game.

However, I Will say this;

I am one of the few people on this forum now that care about absolutely nothing, except balance.
Uncompromising, unwavering balance.
Anything that doesn't come under that catageory (eg; unbalanced things, eg; your idea) can seriously fuck off.

As for your idea;
It's god damn retarded.
If you had ANY SKILL You'd be able to use Stealth II as a Spy without compromising your configuration, runspeed, or damage.

Go THINK about where you put your points THEN comment okay?

/gets annoyed about always having to be the one to finally put noobs with stupid ideas in their place.

•Super|\|ova•

04-02-04, 13:26

Originally posted by QuantumDelta
No, I'm probably not playing the same game you are.

See, I play fairly, and sometimes that means I die, when I wouldn't have to.
I do my job(s) ingame with honour, and go about things in ways that sometimes leads to me being stabbed in the back (....uhh repeatedly) so I guess if it counts I'm probably not playing the same game.

However, I Will say this;

I am one of the few people on this forum now that care about absolutely nothing, except balance.
Uncompromising, unwavering balance.
Anything that doesn't come under that catageory (eg; unbalanced things, eg; your idea) can seriously fuck off.

As for your idea;
It's god damn retarded.
If you had ANY SKILL You'd be able to use Stealth II as a Spy without compromising your configuration, runspeed, or damage.

Go THINK about where you put your points THEN comment okay?

/gets annoyed about always having to be the one to finally put noobs with stupid ideas in their place.

Don't you dare to take all the honour for yourself :D

Dade Murphey

04-02-04, 13:27

Originally posted by Biznatchy
I want my spy to have a remote chance of being able to go outside his apt and live. What do I have to pay for that?

Give up on being able to repair and research. I already cant use a wep very well due to the wep lore crap so might as well go repair but if i want to be able to hunt warbots. Now I need to put a ton in TC, even though I only use a pain easer, just to survive the gankers.

Ok...I got to this and had to stop...this is funny in a way...Ok...if you want to have as much as you can left over for other things...use pistols...Lib, for xample, rocks against WB's...but shit man...make the sacrifice or don't...it's, really, a rather powerful item...it shouldn't be free...nothing cool in life is ever free...even sex...you gotta take someone out a bit...or whatever...I have yet to meet anyone who was just kickin it...walking down the street...and some chic asked him to shag :p ...hahah...but no...this is a poor idea...bad...lame...no...

Well it looks the same as a Hack Tool, Hack tool doesnt need TC.
Wait the CST TOOL is a tech item it doesnt need TC.
OMG the Research TOOL is a tech item doesnt need TC.

Wait Tech COMBAT where is the combat in Stealth.

Salvage Tool is a technological tool also hmmmm no TC requirment there either.

should we keep going on this.

Holy crap, man...this dude has some shit arguements...where do you start?
Hack tool has it's own skill : HACK
Construction has it's own skill, of the same name...requires a shit load of points as well, and the same with research...wtf are you smokin??

The combat I think could really be summed up to passive aggressive tactics that are associated with the stealth tool

Salvage has well has it's own skill : RECYCLING

You shouldn't keep going...you should have gave up when you first concieved the idea...

•Super|\|ova•

04-02-04, 13:36

Originally posted by t0rqu3
If threads had a genre this would be comedy I think.

Rather 'retarded' than comedy. The day this bizsomethingsomething started this thread was and still is a sad day we all will remember forever. This thread will be told to my kids to born and their kids and so on until this story becomes so known all over the world that ppl actually will start tracing the bizsomethingsomething's children's children's children's children and kill them just because they were related.

GT_Rince

04-02-04, 14:22

O/T...

LOL @ Nova... Just seen your Occupation dude :D

Back On Topic...

I gotta agree with the majority here. Leave stealth where it is - you wanna stealth, use it at the risk of gimping some of your other setup - big deal - we all do it :rolleyes:

Devils Grace

04-02-04, 14:34

ide say.....

remove CST from cstructores so i can cap my FL.........

with the same bonus in CST of course.....

o_O

its like u goin to lunch and u wana eat fish and meat on the same plate..........tho in this case u can but u wont leave the bathroom untill the year of 2036

El_MUERkO

04-02-04, 15:17

Removing TC from stealth would overpower PEs, I'd go low tech, cap the liberator totally and have 100+ agility so I'm againist it.

For the advantage of stealth a price has to be paid.

Phatso

04-02-04, 22:11

well my spy is not really either pvp or trade skill
i have 108 hack 28 vhc stelth 1 and i am a high lvl dronner so the only use for my TC is the stelth tool.

i dont really stand a chance in PVP and i dont do any trade skills but i am a usfull player to have about at op wars becouse of my longer range attacks and ability to hunt players out.

also i can hack 1st lvl and still get out intime to get away and be of use from a vantage point.

and as for lvling i can solo 2 or 3 WB titan's and then run in and hack them all

Doc Holliday

04-02-04, 22:13

@ thread starter. LOL NO!!!

Bl@zed

04-02-04, 22:18

wow you can toally tell this kim is a pe stealth whore..:rolleyes:
removing stealth T-C req qould be totally LAME tbh.
stealth needs to be fixed, make is spy ONLY, pe's have the best defense in the game next to ppus and therefore don't need that shit stealth. people just need to get off their lazy asses and make a decent con setup ffs :rolleyes:

Netphreak

04-02-04, 23:01

How about "NO YOU FUCKING TWAT!" jesus really do you want apu monks just appearing and spamming your ass with 105/min of Holy Lighting? or a CS tank doing the same?

If any change was to be made as to which classes should and shouldn't be able to use stealth it would be to make it spy only.
Also people say stealth gives you 'god mode' now obvioulsy they must be talking about pe's using stealth because for a spy it just gives a slight chance to survive beiong ganked!

Judge

04-02-04, 23:06

Originally posted by Bl@zed
wow you can toally tell this kim is a pe stealth whore..:rolleyes:
removing stealth T-C req qould be totally LAME tbh.
stealth needs to be fixed, make is spy ONLY, pe's have the best defense in the game next to ppus and therefore don't need that shit stealth. people just need to get off their lazy asses and make a decent con setup ffs :rolleyes:

Yeah, PEs also have the worst offence in the game, and are useless in OP wars.

Drake6k

04-02-04, 23:11

I'm a lowtech Pistol Private eye. No one would get it better than I if TC was removed from stealth :D but I still dont care, stealth ruins the game. Should be SPY ONLY.

Also I have non-stealth pride.

k thx

Strych9

04-02-04, 23:15

Originally posted by Drake6k
I'm a lowtech Pistol Private eye. No one would get it better than I if TC was removed from stealthActually, my droner would have it better than you. :)

For your pistol PE, having TC means access to more weapons. For a droner, TC means nothing. ;)

Marx

04-02-04, 23:17

Hey, am I too late to join the "Keep TC, thanks" bandwagon?

I have horrible timing for stuff like that.

:(

Netphreak

04-02-04, 23:28

Originally posted by Judge
Yeah, PEs also have the worst offence in the game, and are useless in OP wars.

hmm......... no they dont.
I have both a rifle pe using pain easer and rog and a pistol pe using judge, and they do decent damage.
A rifle spy only outdamages a pe using rog when he gets about 180 r-c and caps freq. But with pa thats possible for the pe too so no i dont get how you can say they have the worst offence.
My pistol pe may do less damage than my rifle pe but in pvp and outpost wars hes much more effective.

Rade

04-02-04, 23:31

Originally posted by Netphreak
hmm......... no they dont.
I have both a rifle pe using pain easer and rog and a pistol pe using judge, and they do decent damage.
A rifle spy only outdamages a pe using rog when he gets about 180 r-c and caps freq. But with pa thats possible for the pe too so no i dont get how you can say they have the worst offence.
My pistol pe may do less damage than my rifle pe but in pvp and outpost wars hes much more effective.

Spies can get far higher rifle/pistol combat and at the same time
reach higher level rifles/pistols, so yes, they deal more damage
mover time. And yes, PEs dont have much to do at OP wars, in
fact, there is nothin they can do in OP wars that other classes
cant do better. Monks and tanks do the pure fighting alot better,
and Spies snipe better. Its been this way since the start of retail
and its hardly news.

Netphreak

04-02-04, 23:44

Oh in that case my appologies for pe's being the most powerful single class in the game. An the best pvp rifle is probably the RoG which a pe can use just as easy and a spy ok he might not have 113/min freq but 98/min isn't too bad and he can stealth and have good resists etc...
Just ask XaNToR if he thinks that pe's are no use in op wars.

#151988

04-02-04, 23:47

Since I started playing without stealth on my PE I saw how much stealth sucks. IMO it should be spy only and it should gimp the spy who uses it. If ya wanna stealth you should be less good at using weapons. (don't flame me i'm sensitive)

Netphreak

04-02-04, 23:50

I wont flame you and stealth 2 was a gimp for a spy to use till the last patch but any of the other stealths are still too much gimping for a combat spy to spec for.
And even the best comabt spies still have to drug to get decent agl because they have to pump so many points into there combat stat (r-c/p-c).

MegaCorp

04-02-04, 23:53

T-C is a fair price to pay for Stealth, and the prior values were reasonable; the current T-C reductions are just so much extra benefit. Its all a question of having to make tradeoffs, which is the way it should be. You want to be more stealthy than you are now? Sure, shift some points around, but the price will probably be that you wont have as high a damage potential as you did before, or perhaps you have to weaken some trade skills and/or your agility.

Edit: i for one do not feel that i am being nerfed just because i have to decide how to balance damage potential versus stealthiness. *Because* i am technology oriented, and have so many skill points, i have the *latitude* to decide what i want to emphasize most.

Spook (a stealthy spy)

Bl@zed

05-02-04, 00:04

Originally posted by #151988
Since I started playing without stealth on my PE I saw how much stealth sucks. IMO it should be spy only and it should gimp the spy who uses it. If ya wanna stealth you should be less good at using weapons. (don't flame me i'm sensitive)

it doesnt need to nerf the spies that use it, spies are the masters of technology, and should be reqarded by stealth, imo pe's just don't need stealth because they are so damn good without it, and i've played both t-c and pure lib/pe pe's. But imo, i don't think spies need to be nerfed for using stealth, after all they are the masters of technology (like stealth) :D

MegaCorp

05-02-04, 00:06

Yeah, PEs also have the worst offence in the game, and are useless in OP wars.
Wrong. Some of the best killers at an Op war are PEs. Its all a question of personal skill, not limitations of the class or their equipment.

Spook

QuantumDelta

05-02-04, 00:24

Originally posted by Netphreak

Just ask XaNToR if he thinks that pe's are no use in op wars.
No offence, but that's because most of the people he fights don't have a friggin clue wtf they're doin.

Psychoninja

05-02-04, 00:26

Why won't this topic just die!
Let it die!!!

Judge

05-02-04, 00:33

Originally posted by MegaCorp
Wrong. Some of the best killers at an Op war are PEs. Its all a question of personal skill, not limitations of the class or their equipment.

Spook

Wrong. Statistically they are worse in OP fights than any other class, though Rifle PE and Rifle Spy are about the same...

Their defence is effectively lowered because everyone else has holy buffs, so the advantage that they gain because of having their shelter normally is negated and although their offence is "decent" it is technically the worst in the game.

The only thing for a PE to do in an OP fight is to hack the actual OP, and then only if he is Pistol. Rifle hackers are gimps.

QuantumDelta

05-02-04, 00:40

quite correct.
Of all of my characters my PEs are the worst for op fights...
APU/PPU Most effective.
Tank just behind.
Droners just behind that.

I'm not saying you can't op war with a PE you can, but you would be much more effective in another skin.

Rade

05-02-04, 00:48

Another thing interesting thing is that hacking is in some eyes
one of PEs "roles" at OP wars, well sorry but I know just as many
PPUs as PEs that hack, its not a role exclusive to PEs. And of
course PEs can contribute to OP wars and of course personal skill
is involved, but the same person would contribute shitloads more
if he was a monk or a tank.

Biznatchy

05-02-04, 05:46

First of all the idea of removing TC from stealth was based on making it spy only.

It was more to make it possible to have a viable spy char that is a low tech wep user and have stealth. That allows the spy to have a second tradeskill such as repair/VHC/salvage.

I suppose all of you that if you play on a mult char server then having a gimped char to just do repair and such is fine. But if your a spy on pluto then well doing repair is a major gimp when you add the TC requirment for stealth. Lets make no bones about it a spy needs stealth to stand a chance to make it around neocron. Since everyone and his 6 brothers are looking to kill you since your weak in the first place.

When DOY comes out and some of the new stuff in the vehical department comes out I think you will understand why this will be more important.

Psychoninja

05-02-04, 06:07

Originally posted by Biznatchy
It was more to make it possible to have a viable spy char that is a low tech wep user and have stealth. That allows the spy to have a second tradeskill such as repair/VHC/salvage.

That goes back to specializing. You can't do it all. It's either no T-C, gimp P-C/R-C, a tradeskill, or gimp agil. If you want to still be viable in PvP, just ditch the T-C since all you use it a Paineaser. A Spy doesn't NEED a stealth tool to survive, at one point Stealth wasn't ingame, but people still managed. If you're playing on pluto you just have to depend on the tradeskillers tbh. The game is made so everyone depends on each other. There are gloves that boost tradeskills, there are buffs, there are ops.