View Full Version : Proposal to replace -ATH on Tank PA.
To justify the change:
APU PA - has -ve to PPU (only relevant to hybrids) and -ve to AGL. The -AGL is compensated for by putting every possible point into AGL. This is possible for monks because they have no other DEX point sinks, except possibly 25 VHC for a Hovertec.
PPU PA - As APU but with -APU. PPUs further compensate for the -AGL with the easy casting of Spy 3.
PE PA - has -ve to MST and PSI. Has little to no effect mid-combat - Damage Boost and other key combat spells are completely unaffected. PA is simply taken off in order to buff up. At worst, it means you can't quickly recast Blessed Deflector and have to take off the PA quickly first.
Spy PA - has -ve to INT and END. The -INT is small and irrelevant, a SF chip counters it and heavy belts are still available, INT's only other effect is on tradeskills and hacking, which you don't really need PA to do. At worst, it means spies have a tiny reduction in their hacking ability if they want to keep their near total X-Ray protection during the hack (not really noticable). Stamina boosters compensate for the -END, END doesn't really increase stamina by a great deal anyway.
M-C PA - has -ve to DEX/CON (at least I think, KK can't seem to decide anyway) and to H-C. The H-C is simply to stop H-C tanks from wearing the M-C PA for protection without losing their runspeed it seems. The DEX/CON hit does nothing, at most it means 5 less HP.
Now we compare H-C PA - has, like M-C PA, a -ve to DEX/CON (delete as appropriate depending on latest test patch :p), as with M-C Tanks it means nothing. But it has a serious -ATH. This has the most serious repurcussions of any PA. H-C tanks have two options - 1, run significantly slower, which means getting hit more. The loss in speed is about 1/5 by my reckoning, which is a damn sight more difficult to cope with than, for example, being unable to recast Blessed Deflector quickly, mainly because it affects the Tank while in combat.
The second option is to tweak the CON setup to compensate. H-C tanks simply cannot afford to do this. Tanks don't have shelter - they rely on their resists more than any other class except APUs. The Tank's survival depends on his HP and resists, and getting 25 more ath is impossible to do without a large reduction in HP, or a significant weakness in resists. The recent increase in poison weaponry through the Devourer makes it hard enough now that POR also has to be factored in.
The end result is, H-C Tanks cannot afford to wear their PA. It has the most significant -ve of any PA, and therefore is the only PA which actually reduces the combat effectiveness of those wearing it.
So, I propose to change it. There are several options:
-ve to M-C and DEX/CON, like M-C PA.
-ve to INT and HCK, has the same effect in real terms as PE PA.
-ve to M-C and AGL, like APU and PPU PA. This is the -ve which I think works best. It's still apparent, but it can be compensated for properly, just like APU and PPU PA.
Thoughts?
FOOL
I say once again
Power Armor is hydraulics/electromotors assisted movement so you can do stuff beyond your normal strenght.... Of course it will impact your athletics.....
I say just give it to them.. and end it all. Its not gonna make them UBAR UBAR impossible to kill players anyway. There are still pe's and apus and maby even spies who can beat a tank without pa on anyways. Or release a batqueen variation of leg and foot that gives +25 or whatever it is atl to compensate.. And that also gives Pe's more goodies to counter the hc tanks with more atl.
Well yes the powearmor is big and bulky but there is no logical explenation for why the melee powerarmor dont have the negatives.. only the fact that Melee's need the speed as a defence..
Originally posted by Cytaur
FOOL
I say once again
Power Armor is hydraulics/electromotors assisted movement so you can do stuff beyond your normal strenght.... Of course it will impact your athletics.....
FOOL
Think first maybe ? The melee PA doesent effect it O_o so why does the HC PA ? Not like the rifle sized Devourer doesent slow you down atall now does it :rolleyes:
How's this right, the devourer is the size of a FirstLove, why doesent the FL slow down spie's yet the devourer slows down a tank like their carrying a sumo on their back O_o
\\Fényx// If im not mistaken my spy is kinda slowed down with whatever rifle out. Not to the extent of a tank. But there needs to be something negative.. A spy is Weak and the rifle is or should be lighter than a cannon.
But the runspeed loss with the cannons out could be enough.. and to end the "whining" about it all.
Originally posted by Cytaur
FOOL
I say once again
Power Armor is hydraulics/electromotors assisted movement so you can do stuff beyond your normal strenght.... Of course it will impact your athletics.....
How does the PE PA increase your resistance to force, pierce and energy damage, while also increasing your dexterity and skill with rifles and pistols, and also appearing similar to Tank PA except being a little lighter, not affect your athletics then?
Scikar, I made a post about the exact same thing recently. I agree completely with you. We have to keep the pressure up so perhaps KK will notice.
The melee PA is awesome. It takes away from heavy combat, which for a pure melee tank, is essentially ZERO penalty. It is awesome armor. Why in the world did they have to make the HC PA suck?
The monk PA takes away from athletics also and it is already slated to be fixed (it will take away agility instead). The new camo armor in particular looks pretty cool and I bet that every HC tank wants to use it. Please KK, fix the HC tank PA. :mad:
Well I would agree, if i honestly thought tanks were slow, even weapons drawn. Ive never fought you so I dont know how fast you are, but most tanks ive fought have been plenty fast enough... ouch...
Helps sink a bit of con too for PA tanks, and tanks have an awful lotta con...
You just got ur CS's boosted too *cries*
Originally posted by Scikar
How does the PE PA increase your resistance to force, pierce and energy damage, while also increasing your dexterity and skill with rifles and pistols, and also appearing similar to Tank PA except being a little lighter, not affect your athletics then?
By all means, give me my psi back while wearing pa... *dusts off blessed flector*
on RP side , isnt dex like , the skill of complex and fast movement. Something increasing a skill with agility inside should make you slower ?
I think it would be an interesting adition to tanks.
However, as you have added an option so we can give our ideas....
A nice and interesting idea in my opinion to encourage tanks to wear PA would be keeping the -25 atl negative (so they move slower), but removing the cannon runspeed nerf when PA is on.
This way tanks would NEED somewhat to wear PA like other classes, as their performance in combat would get a noticiable increase. Many tanks even with the -atl removed would preffer to use viperking, specially with devourers around IMO.
Is either this or swaping the -atl for -agl or -mc, but I agree that -25 atl is too much. Bare in mind that a class which has 100 in a skill also mean that its strenghts are built upon that skill and its subskills. Specially an already critical skill that is constitution, so to me having 100 cons is not even a excuse for the -ATL in the PA.
Well I couldnt imagine spy PA with -agl, or monk PA with -ppw o_O
I think -CON and -AGL would make much more sense, if not the posted above.
Nothing big, just reacted on this:
Originally posted by Scikar
PE PA - has -ve to MST and PSI. Has little to no effect mid-combat - Damage Boost and other key combat spells are completely unaffected. PA is simply taken off in order to buff up. At worst, it means you can't quickly recast Blessed Deflector and have to take off the PA quickly first.
PE PA4 means I cant wear psi boots anymore, furthermore,
whenever I need to put the PA on I need to drug, when drug
wears off the PA keeps itself on. So no, I had to permanently go
down to normal deflector from blessed, and yes thats quite a big
difference. Its _definately_ on par with the negatives other
classes have.
**edit: oh yeah I voted to change the PA, altho I dont like the
new trend with all PAs and kami chips and whatnot preventing
people to do hybrid setups, I think they should be promoted
instead.
Lifewaster
01-02-04, 02:10
All capped monks/ tank run too fast is this game anyway.Combined with lag low fps in OP wars its rediculous at times. Also is a pain casting the same ppu buff/heal on a runner several times because he moved each time you tried to cast it.
At least nerfing the strafe speed would help a lot.
Only class that should have this speed is PEs and maybe spies.
KK should implement runspeed caps for each class in this order.
PE
SPY
MONK
TANK
Originally posted by Rade
Nothing big, just reacted on this:
PE PA4 means I cant wear psi boots anymore, furthermore,
whenever I need to put the PA on I need to drug, when drug
wears off the PA keeps itself on. So no, I had to permanently go
down to normal deflector from blessed, and yes thats quite a big
difference. Its _definately_ on par with the negatives other
classes have.
**edit: oh yeah I voted to change the PA, altho I dont like the
new trend with all PAs and kami chips and whatnot preventing
people to do hybrid setups, I think they should be promoted
instead.
I forgot to mention above, as I did in the other thread, that PA4 isn't really a consideration since it essentially gimps anyone who uses it regardless of their class. Only PEs actually gain more than they lose by speccing for PA4, except that they can't wear psi boots. Looking at PA3 though, which is the standard for capped and imped characters, I would say PE PA has the lowest negative of the PA3s.
That's not really a problem though IMO, there isn't really much that could be done to PE PA, anything else would either be no negative at all or too severe.
@Leebzie: It doesn't sink CON or slow tanks down - we just don't use it, simple as that. It's good to show off in or for the occasional OP war, but only when you expect to be parashocked anyway but that's it.
Mumblyfish
01-02-04, 02:51
Meh, I believe all PAs should reduce the defensive abilities of the wearer. So leave it with ATH for me.
Originally posted by Mumblyfish
Meh, I believe all PAs should reduce the defensive abilities of the wearer. So leave it with ATH for me.
Well of course there should be a negative to it still. But why have it out of proportion on Tank PA? Or do you have suggestions for the other PAs?
Mumblyfish
01-02-04, 03:10
Originally posted by Scikar
Well of course there should be a negative to it still. But why have it out of proportion on Tank PA? Or do you have suggestions for the other PAs?
Personally, I'd rather have a greater ATH hit with FAR more H-C on tank PAs. But I'm tired and somewhat stupid right now so I'm not going to explain anything.
Originally posted by Mumblyfish
Personally, I'd rather have a greater ATH hit with FAR more H-C on tank PAs. But I'm tired and somewhat stupid right now so I'm not going to explain anything.
Thing is, that just sounds like another kami chip. And we both know how successful the Tank kami has been amongst capped tanks.
Mumblyfish
01-02-04, 03:16
Originally posted by Scikar
Thing is, that just sounds like another kami chip. And we both know how successful the Tank kami has been amongst capped tanks.
It's not EXACTLY the same as a Kami chip. With the resists from PA, the user will take MORE hits to kill. In order to counteract the virtual "turret" effect from it, the user will naturally cap all his weapons. It's really just another playstyle. You'll be tough to kill, and deal out an arseload of damage, but will find it hard to keep up with people who manage to get in close to you, as should anyone in a BIG ARMOURED SUIT.
It's really about making it an option depending on how you want your tank to play. Walking behemoth of doom, or agile up-close fighter.
Edit: I forgot to suggest PA having more resists as well, but now you know...
Shadow Dancer
01-02-04, 03:19
Originally posted by Mumblyfish
It's not EXACTLY the same as a Kami chip. With the resists from PA, the user will take MORE hits to kill. In order to counteract the virtual "turret" effect from it, the user will naturally cap all his weapons. It's really just another playstyle. You'll be tough to kill, and deal out an arseload of damage, but will find it hard to keep up with people who manage to get in close to you, as should anyone in a BIG ARMOURED SUIT.
It's really about making it an option depending on how you want your tank to play. Walking behemoth of doom, or agile up-close fighter.
Edit: I forgot to suggest PA having more resists as well, but now you know...
How about increasing the damage cap on hc weapons, THEN going with your suggestion. Part of the reason kami chips aren't useful in pvp to tank is because of very very small gain compared to the enormous penalty.
sex
monks get -25 ATL on their PA 3 now, not agl anymore. sorry if this hs been posted before, but im tired :(
Originally posted by Mumblyfish
It's not EXACTLY the same as a Kami chip. With the resists from PA, the user will take MORE hits to kill. In order to counteract the virtual "turret" effect from it, the user will naturally cap all his weapons. It's really just another playstyle. You'll be tough to kill, and deal out an arseload of damage, but will find it hard to keep up with people who manage to get in close to you, as should anyone in a BIG ARMOURED SUIT.
It's really about making it an option depending on how you want your tank to play. Walking behemoth of doom, or agile up-close fighter.
Edit: I forgot to suggest PA having more resists as well, but now you know...
Even if it gave +100 to all armor, it wouldn't actually provide much of a boost at all. Without shelter, Tanks still can't get past that 76% cap. It's already possible to get over 73% in each resist except poison. So the only way to actually make a PA like that worthwhile is to put a built in shelter effect in it. Is that really a good idea?
@Furion: The -ATH on monk PA is being switched back to -AGL. The thread on it is what prompted me to start this one.
Id like all armor bonuses removed from the PA and instead a
small shelter effect added, much like the deflector belt. Been
yapping about that for quite some time now tho. Then we can
balance things from there.
Mumblyfish
01-02-04, 03:40
Originally posted by Scikar
Even if it gave +100 to all armor, it wouldn't actually provide much of a boost at all. Without shelter, Tanks still can't get past that 76% cap. It's already possible to get over 73% in each resist except poison. So the only way to actually make a PA like that worthwhile is to put a built in shelter effect in it. Is that really a good idea?
I actually thought it'd be great to make tanks in PA unbuffable/healable, and putting on a PA "debuffs" the user. THEN add a shelter/deflector effect to the PA (without the PSI special effects, this is sheer technology, not fucking magic). If the user is getting close to death, he either has to take down as many as possible before he goes down, or find a safe spot to take PA off (make it a ten second process or so). Then you'd be virtually adding a fourth class to the battlefield, and it'd give pistol users a use at OP battles.
For example, there is a PA'd tank trundling towards an OP battle. He isn't escorted by the typical PPU because he has no need for one, since PSI doesn't affect him. Using a CS/Ravager combo, he can take out anyone getting him from long/medium range, as such THE PISTOL PEs HAVE A USE! They move quickly to the PA tank, then unleash merry hell on him. Bye-bye unhealable tank.
This may also encourage more teamwork. Most tanks wouldn't wear PAs (as it is basically a suicide mission, as many kills as you'll rack up), but those in it will be a valuable resource for the battle. They'll be covered by snipers and close-range fighters, as on their own they are vulnerable.
Meh, brainfart ++
Leads to other problems though. If we're at an OP war we'll have to take it off, otherwise the shelter effect will interfere with PPU shelters cast on us, like deflector belt does. So then we can't use our PA at OP wars until this problem is fixed, which could take quite a while considering how many other things there are in the pipeline, especially with weapons atm. Or we don't get any change to the PA until the problem is fixed at all, which could be never.
I think the best idea would be to adjust the negative as it is currently to bring it more in line with the other PAs for 'fairness'. Then, instead of making only Tank PA unique with the shelter effect, each PA should have a unique feature to it, and we can balance all of them together.
Mumblyfish
01-02-04, 03:49
Originally posted by Scikar
Wibble!
Who's idea is that in response to? Mine or Duder's? Bear in mind I'm a little hepped up on hot chocolate right now.
It was actually in response to Rade's. :p
Re your post, I don't think something that radical is a good idea at this point. It could be quite overpowered, but more likely it'll just not be worth it and PA won't get used very often. The idea here is to make Tank PA worth wearing, as PA is for other classes.
Mumblyfish
01-02-04, 04:23
I don't expect anyone to take it seriously. It's a fucking insane idea. It's just nice to be able to dream of what Neocron would be like with me on board.
Needs more pirates.
dont think it needs to be switched to a melee degative, as which heavy tank in there right mind would have even 1 point in melee.
id rather the negative be put under agility under the dex subskill.
but you know what noone ever gave a fuck about tanks PA before the monks got a fucking over on there PA(apart from other tanks that is)
i wear my PA now cos i got a better setup that works with PA on, but the PA run speed nerf wouldnt be so bad if it wasnt for the fact that the cannons make us run at the speed of a tortoise with broken legs
Hell, I'd be happy if they'd just reduced the weight of the god damn things(TankPA).........:rolleyes:
EDIT
I went with the DEX/MC malus
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