Monks Nerfed Too Much [Archive] - Official Neocron Forum

WebShock

31-01-04, 18:36

u all can hate psi all u want, -25 ath is fuckin insane nerf. That's a sledgehammer not a balance, so all of you can kiss my "soft tissue. HL wielding, ass"

I'm glad they are making it a agl nerf. At least then i can go back to speccing speed and just loosing the ability to clone boosters.

All a psi has when he is unbuffed is his speed, without it, he cant defend himself well.

Stop thinking that because an apu is rarely alone (has a ppu on his ass) that all apus do it.

I go to PP naked, nothing but drugs and medkits. How long do you think my turret ass is going to last with no speed, distance nerfed oh and yea, low mana now since ppw got nerfed.

LoL! and Im a capped apu with core and ds. Imagine the poor guy that doesnt have any of that yet.

:rolleyes: haters :rolleyes:

ezza

31-01-04, 18:38

how long do you think a turrets assed tank is gonna last:rolleyes:

imo monks are fine

KramerTheWeird

31-01-04, 18:39

omg now I can't run as fast omg now cs actually hurts omg now I can't outheal every fucking weapon in the game omg what's next they'll nerf my instant aim no line of sight shooting ability...

balance != nerf

know the difference, and stop complaining.

Psycho Killa

31-01-04, 18:39

Your right you should have max run speed insane damage and not have a reticle.

My main char is a ppu btw so dont say im just a hater.

Noones forcing you to wear the pa

"i wont have cap damage omg h4x"

Well you still can just about kick anyones ass one on one and with a ppu your almost godlike.

Over half the population has a monk alt or as there main character even on one char pluto for crying out loud. So how could everyone be a monk hater.

KramerTheWeird

31-01-04, 18:41

I laugh at the apu's who say they lost a whole 20-30% on their holy lightning. What is that, like 3-4 damage? lol

Psycho Killa

31-01-04, 18:42

But what if one time out of 100000 I die to tank and he has 4 hp left I would of won :mad: :mad: :mad:

Opar

31-01-04, 18:44

I agree the ATH nerf is a bit of a sledghammer, however monks do have an insane damage output, which is intended, i guess.

Monks need some psi bones. That instead of Force Resist give Psi Power or something.

As far as DS's go, further nerfing the PPW bonus has made the DS worth even less @_@ Its a great chip to have, but not so good if it keeps gettin nerf0red. IMO, DS should be more than just a higher level version of a psi core, so should SA, Hawkins, Herc and Riggers. It should give more like +8 psi +6 INT, +8 to APU and PPU, +17 PPW and PSU, +10 MST or some shit like that. that would make MC5 chips worth the millions people pay for them.

Possessed

31-01-04, 18:45

leik omg omg omg monks take skillz to use... like like we r teh hardest classe to play, no no nerf, we balanced, nerf spies, smug bastids.

BTW monkehs should own all we have teh zappy zappy spells rawr ph33r ZAP ZAP ZAP ZAP ZAP ZAP ZAP ZAP ZAP ZAP
hawr hwr u diez loller

I think my IQ dropped 10 points writing that post....

ezza

31-01-04, 18:46

Originally posted by Psycho Killa
But what if one time out of 100000 I die to tank and he has 4 hp left I would of won :mad: :mad: :mad:

before patch i would often get destroyed by monks due to the run like the wind and no aiming needed.

now im finding it more balanced, some i win if i on form, others i lose

only monks who have problems are the ones who are dying and cant take it that they have lost there awesome monkey power

Rade

31-01-04, 18:46

This thread is hillarious :D

Possessed

31-01-04, 18:50

http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/07-minister.jpg

I assure you that monks are perfectly balanced, and if they were not we would banish them down to the fury depths of hell amid a fury maelstrom of deadly power that is the NERF BAT!!! Every non monk is an infidel and we shall crush them beneath our steel boot!

Couldn't resist:p

WebShock

31-01-04, 18:52

lol comparing a tank to a psi is just stupid. You have way better resists and all the armor you need,

Most unbuffed apus go down in 2 CS bursts even with energy capped.

So you all just enjoy this imbalance, ill be back once the cloaks are fixed. they are broken right now. Just like they were borked last patch when they went back to taking away CON and giving you FULL runspeed.

go ahead and enjoy it fukers... ill be back. :D

all these sarcastic posts mean shit btw, why do you think a monk has no reticle??

cuz he does down hard if he had to wait for one. not to mention if he misses with the ppw nerf, you dont get many tries. so go ahead and bash. I will be back to running circles strafes around all your asses next patch.

@possesed bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaa

ezza

31-01-04, 18:54

LOL before i would watch tanks run from apus cos of the massive damge they do, i would see figures like 150 pop of there head, all the tanks resists counted for nothing against a apu

KramerTheWeird

31-01-04, 18:56

omg a monk missing and losing precious psi pool! because they have no ways of regaining it! because then they have to reload their psi module!

Let's compare how much harder it is for a CS to hit twice compared to a holy lightning. I really don't need to get into that as it's self explanatory. Now, compare the damage between the two. Pretty similar, eh? Maybe an apu can only cast 7-8 now with a full pool compared to the 9-10 they used to (I knew someone who spec'd so they could holy antibuff then cast 5 HL's directly after), but how much CS bursts can be fired before reloading?

Candaman

31-01-04, 18:56

Originally posted by Opar
I agree the ATH nerf is a bit of a sledghammer, however monks do have an insane damage output, which is intended, i guess.

Monks need some psi bones. That instead of Force Resist give Psi Power or something.

As far as DS's go, further nerfing the PPW bonus has made the DS worth even less @_@ Its a great chip to have, but not so good if it keeps gettin nerf0red. IMO, DS should be more than just a higher level version of a psi core, so should SA, Hawkins, Herc and Riggers. It should give more like +8 psi +6 INT, +8 to APU and PPU, +17 PPW and PSU, +10 MST or some shit like that. that would make MC5 chips worth the millions people pay for them.

Rite bit by bit.

1: Monks are finally becoming balanced and u want to give half of them uber implants in their head and psi boosting bones lol.

2: If monks don't have a ds most will use exp cont 3 -20 force ie. the need for force in the bones.

3: MC5 imps are fine as they are don't be stoopid in trying to make the people who have got one uber 1337 so they can wear pa4 and things like that

WebShock

31-01-04, 18:56

it goes both ways ezza.

remember we are talking unbuffed
U N B U F F E D

if i miss vs a good tank, guess what buddy, ill be plasma toast.

KramerTheWeird

31-01-04, 18:58

If I miss against a good apu, I'll be.. uh.. holy lightning toast. Mmm toasty.

WebShock

31-01-04, 19:01

whats you point dude?

mine is that with this big ath nerf, it makes a cloak as worthless as the tank pa 3

guess what, im double fucked, i have a capped tank and a apu.

thats what im saying. stop whining about the damage. this is about runspeed.

Opar

31-01-04, 19:04

Originally posted by Candaman
3: MC5 imps are fine as they are don't be stoopid in trying to make the people who have got one uber 1337 so they can wear pa4 and things like that

Well pa4's are useless at the moment anyway.

Mumblyfish

31-01-04, 19:04

How did monks survive without there powerarmour?

Judging by some of the posts, you'd think that noone played a monk before PA came in :rolleyes:

By the way, thank fucking Christ. Killed four of the buggers yesterday in a few seconds, about 4 Particle Nemesis bursts for each one. Finally, balance.

Carinth

31-01-04, 19:07

If you think we're bad now spike, just wait. Being a Monk is like going on a rollercoaster ride. One month you could be ontop of the world, another you could be sharing a bench with the spies. We've had a pretty good few months in general, this is monkocron afterall. So we're in for a nice deep valley, lets see how low we can go ; )

KramerTheWeird

31-01-04, 19:10

This is pretty much all moot as it seems reakktor has gaven in to the whiners, and if you notice in patch 195 facts on the first post (update) they are returning it back to minus agility.

WebShock

31-01-04, 19:10

well thankfully i dont need a cloak since i have all the stuff the game can offer.

what about the midlevel or almost capped guy? is he balanced?

no! he is fucked beyond all recongnition. all you ppl just go ahead and eat it up. eventually they will be back to haunt you.

sometimes you all do exagerate the power of a monk due to your frustration.

How hard is it to get out of the beams range and kill a psi off with a pain easer? or a rocket launcher.

its just that most of you are used to sticking the bore of your cannon or rifle up your opponents ass and firing aimlessly.

So you dont adapt to diffrent tactics to kill this aggression. now that kk has uber nerfed the psi again there is balance? you are so full of shit! it will get fixed friends! then ill have to deal with your griping again :rolleyes:

Moofausa

31-01-04, 19:18

fuck, they nerfed them to hell i loved my hybrid and monks should be able heal and shelter and stuff themselves and have a good setup... but too many ppl bitched and bitched and bitched so i deleted him and made an apu..dont play this apu anymore so i lomed him gimp ress cuz monks are fucking boring now...theres ways to kill hybrids its not impossible .. bring back teh fucking hybrids (holy shelt lvl 3 boost not this blessed mother fucking shit)!!!

spikeownzu

31-01-04, 19:22

i would go more in depth but i really cant be fuked cuz im too pissed off with NC at the moment

its not balance ffs

it was balanced before the patch, all that needed a tweak was spys

Scikar

31-01-04, 19:23

Originally posted by WebShock
whats you point dude?

mine is that with this big ath nerf, it makes a cloak as worthless as the tank pa 3

guess what, im double fucked, i have a capped tank and a apu.

thats what im saying. stop whining about the damage. this is about runspeed.

Exactly. You cry about having -ath. We've had it ever since our PA was added, and ours was the first. Suddenly when it happens to monks its a bad thing?

KramerTheWeird

31-01-04, 19:25

lol, you two simply don't get it

A monk.. was the sole reason.. anything got done in this game.

They are the only ones who can bring back the dead, the only ones who can kill those ressurecting. They are key, vital, all important in an op battle. No other class can have this honor.

They are faster than any class.. deal the most damage... and are not the weakest defensively.

Now that some of their advantages aren't as great.. they're still powerful but not all necessary, which is a good thing, which lets other classes have a chance for some remote use in this game.

Psycho Killa

31-01-04, 19:49

@ Moofasa

Haha give me the shelter of a ppu and the damage on an apu or i quit!!

I want to take down an army!!!

Thats all I can see in your post

How sad is it that you only think a game is fun when you can slaughter 10 people with little effort since thats how it was when theyre was uber hybrids buddy.

Hybrids need a little something now I wasnt impressed with them but they do not need holy level buffs. You want massive attacking power be an apu. Want massive defense be a ppu. You want both at the same time to bad there is a word called balance look it up and post again after you comprehend its meanin.

Spike when you go to an opfight and 2/3 the people if not all of them are monks how is that balaned?

Please please explain how you consider that to be balance id like to see you try.

QuantumDelta

31-01-04, 19:51

Here we go again?
I don't even need to comment?

As for the ATL nerf, I don't really think KK intended it - if they did, I really wish they'd stop fucking around with pointless nerfs and adjust the actual problem(s).

See, doing all the "oh this'll weaken them a bit" shite only makes being a monk more and more pointless.
If KK went head on with the actual problem(s) themselves it'd have been balanced a long time ago.
Instead KK have been listening to the whining biased monks (cough) and trying not to nerf the things that should be nerfed and instead nerfing everything else on the monk.

Bloody stupid imo....

edit;
PK Moof is the type that just wants to pwn doesn't give a shit about much else.

Shadow Dancer

31-01-04, 20:15

lol, some of the people in this thread are so clueless. They don't give a shit about balance, only their frothing foaming at the mouth hatred of monks.

"HYUH HYUH HL COSTS 200 MANA. THAT'S GOOD HYUH HYUH"

:rolleyes:

The ath nerf and mana pool nerf doesn't make monks less necassary. It's just a pointless nerf imo. People need to learn to differentiate between 2 problems. You thought the apu was too good by itself(*snort*), then yea i could see why you think the ATH penalty was too high. But if you think monks are too important and necassary and this helps the situation, it doesn't. What does the apu have that other classes don't? Hrmmm let me think. Hold on, this is a tough one. Oh yea antibuff.

Who else can bring people back from the dead, heal you in seconds, and casts shields to protect you? Hrmmmm another tough one. Oh yea ppus. So tell me, how are monks less important now? What's changed exactly? Can you now go to an op war without ppus? Can your tank magically cast antibuff now?
Oh yea, that's right monks are still too important. This is just a nerf, it doesn't even target the problem. The only way I see apus less important now is other people doing more damage and an anti-heal drone being added. Look at that, the only things that made him less important didn't even nerf him. And I don't see ANYTHING that makes ppus less important.

Let me clue you people in on something. The only reason I was against the -ath nerf was because the penalty for not wearing PA was way too damn high. Did you know before PA, my HL did 755 damage on it's stat, and a caped energy beam did 738. AND i had shitty mana pool. If I lommed apu to get more mana, energy beam would flatout do more damage than HL.

Do tanks have to use TPC if they don't wear PA? Do they lose 100 health for not wearing PA? Thought so, since you wanna compare both classes PAs.

Anyways, that's the only reason I was complaining loudly about the -ath nerf, because not wearing PA for an APU imo is just too much of a penalty. Also it hurts apus more than ppus, since apus can't cast spy 3, melee 3, super duper speed 3, etc...

:rolleyes:@the community's selfishness

OF course i'll still play APU. I just drug up for whiteflash, i'll adapt like always. And i STILL kick tank and pe asses left and right. And now I enjoy more than ever dropping some shitty little stealthing pe or some cs tank who think they own because of the new patch.

apu>u

spikeownzu

31-01-04, 20:25

but the only thing that monks do have thats good is anti buff, we lack in every other department

and have u tried anti buff?

by the time u cast it and change spell they have already re buffed, and its takes 290 mana, and i just remembered our mana pool nerf WOOPIE

im not sure about PPUs, but i know APUs suck now

and monks have never been this shit before, i'v had my monk for about a year, and this is as low as its got

I'd also like to know if anybody has managed to kill a camo PA tank with a devourer in a 1v1?

because i'm being slaughtered by them, i feel like im a CSTer or something, i get 3 rounds off do about 50 damage a hit and then im dead

i think that people forget how little con monks actually have, and we'v got no room for any athletics unlike tanks

Shadow Dancer

31-01-04, 20:36

Originally posted by spikeownzu
but the only thing that monks do have thats good is anti buff, we lack in every other department

First of all, people should stop saying "monks". Because apu and ppu are different as night and day.

Apus have antibuff that is unique to them.

Originally posted by spikeownzu

and have u tried anti buff?

by the time u cast it and change spell they have already re buffed, and its takes 290 mana, and i just remembered our mana pool nerf WOOPIE

HAB takes 260 mana. THe problem with HAB isn't just the mana, but mostly it's the bug where sometimes it takes 2 seconds for you to actually lose the mana. So you can't immediately pop a booster, meaning LESS mana with which to pound the ppu with.

Hell the only reason I care about pool is because of the high cost of antibuff.

I would stick with holy shelter, but to cap the freq on it(which is technially super easy) you need like 3 slots on it. And it's TL 101, and their are only 2 freq mods, i'm not gonna spend an ultima mod on it. :(

Unless I have an ultimaed one with capped freq just for op wars, then it'll be uber fast and cost a little mana. OMG great idea! :D

Originally posted by spikeownzu

im not sure about PPUs, but i know APUs suck now

Well no. ;) Apus still own like crazy. :p

Can't lie there. :p

Originally posted by spikeownzu

I'd also like to know if anybody has managed to kill a camo PA tank with a devourer in a 1v1?

Me. Several times. And that's with 0 resist. To poison I mean.

Originally posted by spikeownzu

because i'm being slaughtered by them, i feel like im a CSTer or something, i get 3 rounds off do about 50 damage a hit and then im dead

haha

You need to use cover and try and get some distance between yourself and the tank. Also cripple their legs with your HL.

If you get un lucky and fight a tank up close in open space, just keep dancing around him close to him and just hope he misses alot. :p Don't have a predictable evasion style either. Oh and, if you're slow, well you're toast.

That's why I drug up with whiteflash.

Originally posted by spikeownzu

i think that people forget how little con monks actually have,

GRRR i know. -25 athletics is too much of a hit for someone with shitty con.

And to you tank whiners out there that don't care about balance but just about bringing other classes down with you, YES IT SUCKS FOR YOU TOO OK??!! jeez

spikeownzu

31-01-04, 20:45

geez man i know i have to be evasive, but lets say you outside a OP nowhere to take covor just you and the tank, its pretty easy for either of you to hit eachother, targetting not a hard thing to do no matter how fast and evasive your enemy is, at the end of the day its the damage you can take and the damage you can put out, and tanks just own in both catagorys so its useless lol

i drug up with whiteflash too, but then u get haze and ur just about fucked then

and a class should't have to use drugs to be good

Possessed

31-01-04, 20:50

You don't need to use drugs to be good... apu's dmg on its own makes them good, drugs are there only to make you better

And if a dev tank kills you at an op war, where you are bothed ppu buffed... well I would rethink my con setup and the way I move and so if I was you....

I'm not gonna even start on the rest of the posts... *sigh*

Shadow Dancer

31-01-04, 21:12

^^ That's like saying a pe or tank's defense alone makes them good. Nothing "alone" makes a character good. It's a combination of traits. Obviously a PPU's defense is teh 1337 shitnit, but if he couldn't affect anyone in anyway, then he's crap.

Therefore saying 1 thing alone makes someone good, is incorrect imo. :p

Originally posted by spikeownzu
geez man i know i have to be evasive, but lets say you outside a OP nowhere to take covor just you and the tank, its pretty easy for either of you to hit eachother, targetting not a hard thing to do no matter how fast and evasive your enemy is, at the end of the day its the damage you can take and the damage you can put out, and tanks just own in both catagorys so its useless lol

Couple points here.

Are you buffed? Is he buffed?

Let's assume both of you are buffed. If he's at a moderate-good distance and closing in on you, I suggest debuffing him. That's happened to me before. IF he's close to you already, I suggest running. His poison will bypass your shelter and you WILL die before he dies. And a tank with holy shelter takes like 5000000000000000000 HLs. LOL

Nothing wrong with running. Keep running till his shelter wears out, till you get some cover, till he gets distracted, or till you get a good distance to debuff him. Or alternatively you can just ask for a heal from a ppu and debuff him while he shoots you.

Originally posted by spikeownzu

i drug up with whiteflash too, but then u get haze and ur just about fucked then

and a class should't have to use drugs to be good

One whiteflash after the first drugflash and the flash goes away.

Lasts a good long while. You have 2 alternatives at op wars though. Ask for melee 3 and spy 3. That's enough to offset the penalty more or less.

You don't need psi 3 if you have pa. You can cap HL and great mana pool with DS. Or you can come very close to capping HL and have grea tmana pool with xp controller 3. And pa3 in both situations.

You only need psi 3 to cap the rare barrels, and we all know how useful those are. :lol:

OR you could just ask for a psi 3 and take your pa off.

Possessed

31-01-04, 21:34

No, it works like that imo, if an apu had the same damage as a tank, people would consider him shite, but because of his high dmg... he might even be a tad *gasp* overpowered. Every other skill/stat is like a drug, it improves your char, but every char has the basic concept that they are designed around that makes them considered good, everything else is garnish, improving the class.

Scikar

31-01-04, 22:17

Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
GRRR i know. -25 athletics is too much of a hit for someone with shitty con.

And to you tank whiners out there that don't care about balance but just about bringing other classes down with you, YES IT SUCKS FOR YOU TOO OK??!! jeez

Right. So when tanks make threads about removing the -ath from their PA, why is there never any support?

Sleawer

31-01-04, 22:21

Melee3>Psi3 imo.

I have to agree with QD tho, nerfing monks athletics or mana pools wont make you see them less in OP wars... giving the other classes more roles to play will do it.

Speed and high mana should be inherent perks of apu monks, as high hp and high damage are for tanks, or speed and defence are for PE's (these are just examples tho).

Do you want to hurt monks in OP wars? then attack the usefulness of these. The variety of roles that we can manage in any situation is what makes us formidable foes, not running fast.

I agree also with SD, some people in the thread is speaking without the proper objetivity, but showing their hate against the monk class.. not even separating what's a ppu of an apu.

The monk class is each day closer to be an Only_OP-Fight_Class (or Only_Group-Fight_Class). Mana is important for monks, giving us the ability to cap our psi pool wont overpower us; and neither will do having good runspeed, anyway only tanks suffer that grief (I'm tempted to post an idea to fix this for tanks).

I believe this is the animation secuence of any weapon in the game:

- Non Psi Class: target - reticle lock - fire - shot
- Psi Class: target - fire - casting animation - shot

This is the sole reason that makes us hitting without LoS, and the only reason we hit targets after being stealthed.

Both are 4 steps, and iirc time ago monks used to fizzle when we lost the LoS, but after many complains it was changed. Now give me a reticle and the same 4 steps as any other weapon, eliminate the LoS (fizzle when no LoS, period), and there you have one fixed issue.

What else bothers people, having that great damage?
I can think in two solutions for this:

1- Reduce random 'max' damage and increase random 'min' damage (is not that it has never been suggested eh?). Also make Fire Apoc a viable weapon accordingly to its TL (2 higher that HL btw), and 'unnerf' poison.

2- Many will disagree with me in this one. Take away the role of 'damage dealers' from apu monks, give it to tanks, and balance apu's with a good variety of normal abilities, nothing extreme.

Now if what really pisses you is monks being necessary for everything related to combat... just one solution: give other classes more roles to compensate.

PPU's too needed?

.- For Heals: remove implant subskill, call it "Medicine" as science and proper tools to use it. Now you have spies that can heal fast in OP wars, and you can kill them equaly fast because they dont have self uber shields, so it would never be unbalanced. (cheers to Divide for this idea, that is bitting the dust in brainport ages ago).

.- For Shields: make fields and shields generators. [Insert Class here] can now spec a subskill under [Insert Main Skill here] to use tools that generate absortion fields and damage shields against one-type-of-damage (Or various, but I think the idea is balancing not making another ppu.type class).

APU's needed to HAB the ppu's?

Create more weapons that anti heal (now droners can do it btw) and anti shield, or weapons that ignore shelters or deflectors (this has been suggested aswell).

And try to give a class anything unique that makes the class needed but not essential, and useful in any situation.

Do THINGS similar to these and you will see less monks in OP wars and more variety. Keep stupid-nerfing what is not imbalancing the game and you will make some classes uncomfortable to play but still essential to use if you want to compete.

-Sleawer

Sleawer

31-01-04, 22:25

You have my support Scikar.
And it's not that I dont have ideas to fix the 'cannon nerf', but my main is not my tank and I dont know how it would impact on you guys that dont like to use PA's.

ps: btw Hi QD, didnt answer you in the other thread :)

Scikar

31-01-04, 22:37

The runspeed with cannon out is not a problem. It's something to bear in mind when you compare tanks to other classes, but, as it is now, it is not a problem.

What is a problem, is the -ath on the PA. It's crippling to tanks. Tanks have no shelter, and therefore they depend on their CON setup more than any other class except APUs. Just take a look at the -ves on the PAs for other classes:

PEs have a -MST and PSI which isn't a problem because they only need it when they buff, therefore they can take it off to buff and put it back on (exception being when they drug to PA4, but let's forget about PA4s for now since they aren't much use to any class).

Spies have a -END, nobody puts points in END anyway and stam boosters soon fix that, -INT is again mostly irrelevant, just like -CON or -DEX is irrelevant to the tank (whichever it is, KK can't make their minds up).

APUs have a -PPU, and a -AGL, the -PPU is relevant only to hybrids, the -AGL isn't a problem when you put all your DEX points into AGL (just like tanks have to do, mostly).

PPUs are the same, with -APU and -AGL.

Yet tanks have a -ATH. If a tank specs enough ATH to compensate, he gimps his resists/HP, which he depends entirely on, now even more than ever with Devourer requiring poison resist to counter.

Every other class is seen in PA. You don't see spies running around without PA on if they can wear it, even droners wear it for the DEX bonus. PEs are only seen out of PA to buff (or when they're people who think it's ugly). The only monks who don't wear PA are hybrids, the rest depend on it. When was the last time you saw a tank in PA who didn't perform worse than his non-PA counterparts?

Sorry to hijack the thread, it just pisses me off that if something badly affects tanks nobody cares, but if it affects monks it's the end of the world for half the Neocron population.

Finally, obligatory hi and welcome back Sleawer. :)

mdares

31-01-04, 22:48

Originally posted by Scikar
Yet tanks have a -ATH. If a tank specs enough ATH to compensate, he gimps his resists/HP, which he depends entirely on, now even more than ever with Devourer requiring poison resist to counter.

tthats y u lom to melee tank :D (teh red dg is teh sex)

but people really need to understand that the problem with monks is not with the apu but ppu... even spies can take out an apu if used correctly (remember the range nerf). theres something about playing a class thats ur enemy which lets u defeat them easier.

Know your self; and Know your enemies; only then will victory be guaranteed.

- Sun Tze, the art of war

try to play an apu and learn to play them; then u can tell all their little weaknesses and pwn them on whichever ur main is :D

spikeownzu

31-01-04, 22:53

When a newb decides to make a charecter, and he asks what is best monk or tank, the answer is simply gonna be tank, cuz monk has nothing good about it anymore

can somebody just give me a plain and non gibberish answer which is simple to this question :

Whats good about monks compared to tanks?

Scikar

31-01-04, 22:53

Originally posted by mdares
try to play an apu and learn to play them; then u can tell all their little weaknesses and pwn them on whichever ur main is :D

You seem to be forgetting an APU monk called Alaka Zam. ;)

All I'm trying to say is, for every other class, PA boosts them - APUs cap their HLs, PPUs cap their Holy Heals, PEs have access to Judge and RoG as well as getting better stats on them, Spies are given the R-C they need to reach better stats on FL and Dis while at the same time receiving near total protection against X-Ray, and Tanks get to be slow and take more damage. o_O

Scikar

31-01-04, 22:55

Originally posted by spikeownzu
When a newb decides to make a charecter, and he asks what is best monk or tank, the answer is simply gonna be tank, cuz monk has nothing good about it anymore

can somebody just give me a plain and non gibberish answer which is simple to this question :

Whats good about monks compared to tanks?

APU - deals more damage, and has HAB - the only real effective tool against PPUs. Runs faster than a Tank in combat.

PPU - has the highest defence in the game, and can ressurect, heal, shock (grr), damage boost, shield, antidote/shock/damage boost and buff other players. Tanks can do none of these.

How's that?

Shadow Dancer

31-01-04, 22:59

Originally posted by Sleawer

I agree also with SD, some people in the thread is speaking without the proper objetivity, but showing their hate against the monk class.. not even separating what's a ppu of an apu.

The monk class is each day closer to be an Only_OP-Fight_Class (or Only_Group-Fight_Class). Mana is important for monks, giving us the ability to cap our psi pool wont overpower us; and neither will do having good runspeed, anyway only tanks suffer that grief (I'm tempted to post an idea to fix this for tanks).

Do THINGS similar to these and you will see less monks in OP wars and more variety. Keep stupid-nerfing what is not imbalancing the game and you will make some classes uncomfortable to play but still essential to use if you want to compete.

-Sleawer

Exactly. I am so glad you are back.

Originally posted by Scikar
Right. So when tanks make threads about removing the -ath from their PA, why is there never any support?

Why are you asking me that Scikar? You realize that the community is comprised of various individuals right? You realize we are not all 1 collective person right? I can't control other people. I have no idea why you're asking ME why OTHER people didn't support the ath removal on tank pa.

Originally posted by Scikar
Th

Yet tanks have a -ATH. If a tank specs enough ATH to compensate, he gimps his resists/HP, which he depends entirely on, now even more than ever with Devourer requiring poison resist to counter.

Every other class is seen in PA. You don't see spies running around without PA on if they can wear it, even droners wear it for the DEX bonus. PEs are only seen out of PA to buff (or when they're people who think it's ugly). The only monks who don't wear PA are hybrids, the rest depend on it. When was the last time you saw a tank in PA who didn't perform worse than his non-PA counterparts?

Then why don't you make a thread about that? And keep campaignin for something different or a change. Why hijack other threads and stuff?

When I see tanks WANTING other classes to be nerfed because "omg our pa sux too", it shows me they are very limited mentally. It shows me that they don't want to devote time and energy to making threads and thinking up ideas to help tanks out, it shows me they don't care about balance only about other classes getting screwed as much as their class is.

When apu poison was fucked over completely this patch, I made a thread about it. I didn't say "omfg all other classes should have some of their weapons made useless" and just spam it in threads that had nothing to do with it.

You say no one cared about the threads in the past. Well that's the way the community is. 90% only care about their class. Most of the support for ATH removal on tank pa will only come from tanks. Etc....

When tanks say they only have 1 truly viable weapon, you don't see me chiming in saying "so apus have a shitty fire apoc, so deal with it". Because that's a silly and unconstructive statement.

My point is, if someone complains about tank pa being fucked, but then is happy when monk pa gets fucked, they have no right to complain. Because obviously they don't give a shit about any other class just their own. So they can't complain when no one cares about their class.

Sleawer

31-01-04, 22:59

You arent hijacking the thread IMO, it's related also... monks have 45 cons and that with the critical importance of constitution in any char makes it a nerf. However having 100 constitution in a tank doesnt make -atl a lesser nerf; having 100 in a skill means that your char's strenght is built around that skill and its subskills, so the -atl nerf is also a problem.

What you have to understand is that the other classes NEED to wear the PA. I mean to say that it is not essential, but the recent patches made of Neocron a world of over-specialyzation, as if it wasnt bad enought.

An apu monk no longer has the insane range that we had back when there were no pa's, we dont have 150 rof in our spells either (125 FA), and of course hybrids are not what they used to be (99% monk population was hybrid). People seem to forget it.

Also the performance of the other classes was not as improved as it is now, basically having other PA's in the game results in the need of PA for your class.

Spies HAVE to use PA's... well dont think we disagree here. And PE's depend pretty much on their setup configuration, some setups require specialyzation and PA.

I would like to encourage tanks to wear their PA. Removing the -ath penalty is an option, removing the "cannon nerf" while wearing PA is another that I thought... definetly this would almost force tanks to wear PA in order to go over the top of competitivity (your own class wearing PA's would force you to wear PA).

Not sure if you want that, but it's what the other classes have.
Personally I would like to have the option of wearing/not wearing PA without suffering so big disadvantages, but then the PA's wouldnt be so good either, and I remind you that ALL of us asked time ago to make PA's uber armors worth to wear.

ps: thanks for the welcome :)

/edit: I deliberately havent mentioned ppu monks and pa's, imo ppu's are a broken class and dont want to compare them to anything else if it's possible.

-Sleawer

Shadow Dancer

31-01-04, 23:03

I think their should be multiple PA options for each class. With different benefits and negatives.

Wouldn't that be cool? :p

Rade

31-01-04, 23:06

Oh look, Sleawer is back. Time for the old Scikar+Sleawer Get out
of this thread or the thrashing begins sessions again? :D

Sleawer

31-01-04, 23:06

Spike monks still dominate the wars (IMO) due the roles they have. The monk class is still essential, that's why silly-nerfing never works and from my point of view never will be considered balancing.

Guys dont jump on Scikar damnit, he's one of the few reasonable people out there that bothers to discuss and accepts other's opinions :p

(omg I feel so dirty for supporting a tank, switch to your apu now! ;))

/edit: ahah Rade, I guess that's way to say welcome? ;)

Scikar

31-01-04, 23:06

Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Why are you asking me that Scikar? You realize that the community is comprised of various individuals right? You realize we are not all 1 collective person right? I can't control other people. I have no idea why you're asking ME why OTHER people didn't support the ath removal on tank pa.

Then why don't you make a thread about that? And keep campaignin for something different or a change. Why hijack other threads and stuff?

When I see tanks WANTING other classes to be nerfed because "omg our pa sux too", it shows me they are very limited mentally. It shows me that they don't want to devote time and energy to making threads and thinking up ideas to help tanks out, it shows me they don't care about balance only about other classes getting screwed as much as their class is.

When apu poison was fucked over completely this patch, I made a thread about it. I didn't say "omfg all other classes should have some of their weapons made useless" and just spam it in threads that had nothing to do with it.

You say no one cared about the threads in the past. Well that's the way the community is. 90% only care about their class. Most of the support for ATH removal on tank pa will only come from tanks. Etc....

When tanks say they only have 1 truly viable weapon, you don't see me chiming in saying "so apus have a shitty fire apoc, so deal with it". Because that's a silly and unconstructive statement.

My point is, if someone complains about tank pa being fucked, but then is happy when monk pa gets fucked, they have no right to complain. Because obviously they don't give a shit about any other class just their own. So they can't complain when no one cares about their class.

That's exactly the point I was making. You agree that tanks shouldn't have the -ATH. I'm simply demonstrating the majority of the people here complaining about their APU PA are being unbelievably selfish.

I'm not saying "deal with it like we do," I'm not saying "APUs deserve it because Tanks are fucked too," I'm jsut saying that it's certainly very interesting that so many people care about -ATH when their class' PA has it, yet nobody gives a flying fuck about -ATH on Tank PA.

Maybe it is wrong to hijack this thread, but just look at how many recent threads there have been about removing -ATH from Tank PA. Each one got support from some Tanks, and that's it. Nothing done. If I make a thread, it will just go the same way - to page two in a day. The only way anything is going to be done is to get the selfish APU monks to chime in as well - and what better way to do it than show them here when they're whining about -ATH on their own PA?

Shadow Dancer

31-01-04, 23:10

Originally posted by Sleawer

Guys dont jump on Scikar damnit, he's one of the few reasonable people out there that bothers to discuss and accepts other's opinions :p

Well duh, that's why i'm even bothering to respond to him.

If I felt he was unreasonable or just some other frothing twat, I would ignore him.

sex

Originally posted by Scikar
That's exactly the point I was making. You agree that tanks shouldn't have the -ATH. I'm simply demonstrating the majority of the people here complaining about their APU PA are being unbelievably selfish.

That's becuase 90% of the community is selfish.

Their are examples of this across every class.

Originally posted by Scikar

I'm not saying "deal with it like we do," I'm not saying "APUs deserve it because Tanks are fucked too," I'm jsut saying that it's certainly very interesting that so many people care about -ATH when their class' PA has it, yet nobody gives a flying fuck about -ATH on Tank PA.

You really shouldn't be surprised though.

Jest

31-01-04, 23:13

Scikar just curious but what would you propose the PA give a negative to? I dunno if you said it already or not I didnt see it.

Sleawer

31-01-04, 23:13

Well make a thread and a poll then. I just gave another idea besides removing atl nerf, talk with more people, get more ideas, it's up to you.

Now this is hijacking the thread, stop it :p

Scikar

31-01-04, 23:21

Originally posted by Jest
Scikar just curious but what would you propose the PA give a negative to? I dunno if you said it already or not I didnt see it.

Well there's several options. It could be like APU/PPU/Melee PA and have a -ve to M-C. It could have something minor like PE PA and have a -ve to INT and hacking. :p

I think the best option, and the one which would seem in line with the other PAs, is to have a -ve to M-C and a -ve to AGL. If you keep the numbers as they are, then a -25 hit to AGL is still significant, it's just less painful, just like it is for APUs.

I think I will start a new thread now, I seem to have drummed up enough support for it to actually take it somewhere. :)

spikeownzu

01-02-04, 19:15

look at poll, 42% of people think that monks was nerfed too much

thats almost half the people who posted...

Genty

01-02-04, 19:21

Yeah..............we must listen to the minority and un-nerf monks.......that is the only answer. Obviously.

Ok, this is coming from a monk who has been one from the very begining of retail.

Monks are NOT nerfed too much.

EDIT: Let me explain why

Monks have had it good for so long now that any negative effects that take away their overpowered...ness make monks feel hard done by, when really....they have not been.

Scikar

01-02-04, 19:33

Originally posted by spikeownzu
look at poll, 42% of people think that monks was nerfed too much

thats almost half the people who posted...

...and 58% think monks weren't nerfed too much. Considering at least 50% of the current population are monks anyway that's not too bad. What are you anyway, some kind of politician?

Carinth

01-02-04, 20:18

Originally posted by Genty
Yeah..............we must listen to the minority and un-nerf monks.......that is the only answer. Obviously.

Ok, this is coming from a monk who has been one from the very begining of retail.

Monks are NOT nerfed too much.

EDIT: Let me explain why

Monks have had it good for so long now that any negative effects that take away their overpowered...ness make monks feel hard done by, when really....they have not been.

Actualy Genty, that's only true of newer monks. The long standing ones know this is just a phase. If you want to talk about complainers, you should look at the other classes aswell. Monks are continualy changed, nearly every patch modifies us. Yet once a patch modifies another class, it's an outrage. For Monks it's just something we had to accept when we chose a monk as our character.

Over a given 3 month span, say they patched twice a month. Of the 6 patches, 4 dramaticly change what types of monks are viable/how they can distrubte their points/how they can fight/play the game. The remaining two have more minor changes. Over this period maybe one or two patches will directly effect the other classes. Non Monks will cry out at how awful this patch is, but then tell Monks to stop complaining. Monks are overpowered afterall.

Sleawer

02-02-04, 00:18

Well what I pointed in my threads is not that monks have been nerfed much or little, but that we have been silly nerfed. In my opinion what should be tweaked are other monk aspects.

This change wont affect the current importance of monks in even one inch.

mdares

02-02-04, 01:25

Originally posted by Sleawer
Well what I pointed in my threads is not that monks have been nerfed much or little, but that we have been silly nerfed. In my opinion what should be tweaked are other monk aspects.

This change wont affect the current importance of monks in even one inch.

i agree. the curent tweaks/nerfs really havent adjusted anything at all in terms of what makes apus/ppus "overpowered".

apus: if u lower our dmg thats fine but please get rid of or decrease teh random dmg. (but again remember apu needs to have the highest dmg output as thats the sole purpose of an apu)

ppus: their overimportance fine; but a simple removal of para, tweak of buffs and heals, and voila. that or give each calss something to counter them; drones got their antiheal; i think pistol/rifle/cannon should get something that bypasses deflectors.

hybrids: actually the current system is pretty good but it does hurt the new monks alot... so it might need a little more thought.

like carinth said i'v been a monkey since i started many many moons ago... and yeah i'm used to it... doesnt mean i like wuts been done but eh... thats y i play on a 4 char server :D