View Full Version : Change Reds Belt Drop rules?
With the new NCPD screen which tells you evil peoples location and every apartment they own, it is going to get seriously hot for runners with red SL.
So in order to help those who need to get thier SL back.
1. Leave the hack level on the belts the same for reds (easy)
2. A red only drops 1 item when they die, expensive one though.
3. No safe slot still.
4. Likewise in warzones only one item.
This means you can still hunt PK'ers, the real PK'ers who look for a fight can still loose stuff and get a challange and those that are trying to level thier SL back after bugs/etc don't get thier inventory ***** from them.
Yeah its a good idea, I suggested something similar a while back as I think that pkers are punisher too much for -SL as it is atm
Psycho Killa
30-01-04, 16:37
Yes and also make people under negative 16 show up also.
Please really who is against this? Its suppose to be viable to be a criminal in this game just harder as it is now its impssoble and unviable.
Q`alooaith
30-01-04, 16:40
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Yes and also make people under negative 16 show up also.
Please really who is against this? Its suppose to be viable to be a criminal in this game just harder as it is now its impssoble and unviable.
No it's still viable to be criminal..
Just now people who go on killing spree's have to be a little more carful about where they hunt, as people who can challenge them are able to find them to take revenge..
You guys are trying to make this game too carebearish. Leave it how it is.
;)
:D
Psycho Killa
30-01-04, 16:43
What are you crazy ITS IMPOSSIBLE to be a criminal in this game you would be broke in a day.
Dropping five items is viable?!?@?@!?
Those voting no I'd like to know why, beyond "ALL REDS MUST DIE!!".
The NCPD screen is way overpowering. I was watching Morph last night from it, and it was tracking his location very fast. Add to that it gives you his apt locations anyone could of come into TH and ganked him and then followed to where ever he GR'ed and ganked him again, and again.
It will be almost impossible for a red to leave thier apartment safely once the hunting starts.
He got his SL loss from a Droning bug. Now if he was PK'ing it wouldn't be a problem to find him and keep attacking but a lot of the red SL people are bugged.
Also professional PK'ers tend to work around the rules anyway, so if they wanted to kill they would whack two then work off the SL. At least with a 1 drop rule then they would be more inclined to keep the red tag.
My opinion is that it is your own fault for not being able to restrain yourself. Your own fault for killing people to the point that you have to do missions. Your own fault that you are to dumb to do the missions outside of nc.
Psycho Killa
30-01-04, 16:44
[ edited for violation of the forum rules - flaming ]
YOUR SUPPPOSE TO BE ABLE TO BE A FUCKING RED SOULLIGHT PERSON DIDNT YOU KNOW THAT????
YOUR SUPPOSE TO BE EVIL ITS JUST SUPPOSE TO BE HARDER WHAT ISNT HARDER ABOUT BEING TRACKED DOWN BY BOUNTY HUNTERS HAVING NO SAFE SLOT AND DROPPING SHIT IN WARZONES?!
You guys are crackheads if you ever EVER see anyone on the ncpd list it will be poor innocent victims who fucked there soullight up you will never see a "criminal"
Where are you gonna do missions outside of nc when people are fucking hunting you down 24 7?
Originally posted by wolfwood
My opinion is that it is your own fault for not being able to restrain yourself. Your own fault for killing people to the point that you have to do missions. Your own fault that you are to dumb to do the missions outside of nc.
No offense, but dumb to do missions outside of NC? where else can they do them? The copbots cut reds down or did you not know that?
Originally posted by Strych9
You guys are trying to make this game too carebearish. Leave it how it is.
;)
:D
How is it carebearish if it makes it more viable to go on killing sprees?
If it got changed it would be viable to run around with less then -17 sl without risking losing your whole inventory and it still leaves it possible to drop a rare as "punishment" for being a bastard.
Q`alooaith
30-01-04, 16:48
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Dropping five items is viable?!?@?@!?
Don't die..
If your criminal as in killed so many people your SL is -30 or so you should be smart enough to know people will come after you, like you came after people.... One bad ganking desives another..
There's plenty of remote places where you can hunt, wastland's mainly, away from GR's and ops..
So if you've low SL, you've got it for a reason, wanna get SL back then work for it, wanna be bad and criminal, live like one!
I voted no.
I wouldn't mind having a negative SL if I did not risk to loose so many items in my BP.
Random PK would be much worse if this risk did not exist.
Some PKers are only intersted in "pwning" as many as possible, regardless the faction of their targets.
This should not be possible without a real risk.
Psycho Killa
30-01-04, 16:50
Ok please think about this for more then 2 fucking seconds.
I pk all my allies and I get to negative 40 soullight. You take out a hit on me and someone checks the citycom and tracks my location down and murders me and I drop an items (Easy to hack POSSSIBLY my slot 1 item)
How is that not being a risk???
REMOTE PLACES YOU GET TRACKED BY THE FUCKING CITYCOM! You will have an army of 20 mercs on you! DROPPING YOUR SAFE SLOT ITEM IS HARSH ENOUGH
THE GAME WILL BE MORE FUN FOR PKERS
THE GAME WILL BE MORE FUN FOR ASSASINS AND BOUNTY HUNTERS
GETTING REVENGE IS FUN!!!!!
Man I hope people who can actualy get past the whole "evil pker thing" wake up and find this thread this is rediuclous THE GAME WILL BE MORE FUN FOR EVERYONE!
Oooo nice I had pretty much the same idea a while back but I totally forgot about warzones. That would be a very cool change to being red. Voting yes and 5 stars. (Though its already like this on Jupiter with every player :p)
1 item but no safe slot sounds like a very good deal to me. Currently deep negative SL means only you have to do mission to be able to play again. That isnt fun for both sides. The red runner has to do stupid mission instead of having some fun, the good runner cant catch him as he is busy doing missing and due to 5 item loss will avoid the fight at every cost. So what is the point of that?
Make negative SL a viable lifestyle again!
My comment was a joke, a stab if you will.
In general, people asking for fewer drops and such are trying to make the game safer, and thus more carebearish.
It isnt the case in this thread, so I made a generic statement.
It was funny to me at least. Sorry if it was missed by everyone else.
Now, regarding PK's outrage:
I will SAY that you are not getting sympathy on this topic cause of the lack of sympathy the victims of PKers get.
For example:
PKers tell everyone that "there are tons of places to go level without risking a PKer. So go level there and STFU I will kill who I want."
In this thread, Q says "There's plenty of remote places where you can hunt, wastland's mainly, away from GR's and ops.."
Do you not see the parallel?
I am not saying it is RIGHT. I am saying that is why I think the voting on this topic may suprise you.
Originally posted by Q`alooaith
If your criminal as in killed so many people your SL is -30 or so you should be smart enough to know people will come after you, like you came after people.... One bad ganking desives another..
What about people with the droning bug, SC bug (I got whacked by that on the weekend)
There's plenty of remote places where you can hunt, wastland's mainly, away from GR's and ops..
Have you even bothered to look at the NCPD screen. There is NOWHERE a red can go without people knowing where to find them. It even lists every single apartment they own in the game.
Now if I was a PK'er who stayed red, it means if I die the killer is guaranteed an item. For those trying to get back thier SL it means they don't get thier whole inventory removed from them.
PKilla is right btw, the majority of PK'ers are not going to be dumb enough to show up on the NCPD under the current drop rules.
Psycho Killa
30-01-04, 16:55
No there is no parralel cuz i cant track down people leveling in the city com can you?
Your right this vote is surpising me I couldnt see anyone voting no.
1)It increases roleplaying. You can be an assasin or a bounty hunter whatever and collect bounties on criminals heads.
2)It makes being a criminal viable but you are still punished by the fact you drop an items anywhere and possibility of losting your slot 1 item. And you can be tracked down anywhere.
3)If you get pked. Either a) track him down yourself with a bunch of friends and get sweet revenge and possibly hack a rare. B) Hire an assasin to take them out come on that isnt cool?
This risk is not high enough IMO.
I go and fight in anarchy zones with 2 rares in my quickbelt, so I risk to lose the one which is not in slot 1.
Moreover, not everyone is a hacker so that limits the risks.
You want to be the real bad person, you need balls for that.
I'm sure some pepole won't mind this change. I already know some people on Venus who don't care at all bout their SL, even with this new feature.
Psycho Killa
30-01-04, 16:58
You really dont think being tracked down by half the server isnt a good enough risk?
Please tell me why there hasnt been one person outside there apartment in the time the soullight system was changed to five item drop?
Now throw on citycom tracking yea sure see how possible it is to be a criminal. YOU FORGET MORE THEN ONE PERSON CAN FOLLOW YOU AND KILL YOU. Sure a hardcore pker can kill alot of people but not AN ANGRY MOB all by themselves.
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
No there is no parralel cuz i cant track down people leveling in the city com can you? Nope. But is there a need to? The levelling folks dont run away from other players after them. They are in one area, levelling. Levellers dont genrep into Battledome, then run all over the wastelands randomly killing the occasional mob. The stay in one place, usually a spot well known for the quantity and type of mob that generate there.
Again, I am not saying that it is correct. But I can easily see how people would be against anything that "helps criminals" cause so far, a lot of the game seems in favor of "the criminal."
And mind you, my LE droner CONSTANTLY has a neg SL cause of the damn LE drone bugs. Hasnt gotten down to -32 yet of course... and people couldnt hunt me down if they wanted cause my LE is in and it has never been removed...
Part of what complicated the neg SL tracking is the presence of SL bugs. If they could iron out ALL SL issues, maybe it would be more viable.
Q`alooaith
30-01-04, 16:59
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
No there is no parralel cuz i cant track down people leveling in the city com can you?
No but you know where people who are leveling are likley to level, and what level they go there at..
Take the CRP caves, team's go in there so often and defend each other, a PKer might not last long..
Aggy cellers.. Hmmm, people go in there from /2 all the way upto /30 and often above..
MB, people hang round that bunk all the time, and most are mid level... hmmm easy prey..
Now where do PKer's hang out.. I know I know.. Safe zones..
Appartments..
If you PK allies you desirve everything you get.
I really do think that half the server will not bother hunting the Red SL guys.
Don't forget that only one hacker will benefit from that.
And if there is only 1 item, you can lose a rare, ok, but you can also lose a medikit.
Originally posted by Strych9
You guys are trying to make this game too carebearish. Leave it how it is.
;)
:D
Friggin carebears - they pop up all over the place. :rolleyes:
;)
No - if you have Red SL, most times you have done something wrong and should be spanked for it. All is fine the way it is - I'ma go hunting soon :D
And for the record, the 5 drops is a bit much with the ability to know there EXACT position at all times.
I would personally like to have it so that the SL system is fixed (no damn droner bugs) AND that a neg SL runner couldnt work off ANY neg SL by sitting in their apartment.
Do those two things, and I would totally be in favor of only one drop for sure.
Psycho Killa
30-01-04, 17:04
Rince how do you consider..
Being tracked down by an angry mob.
Losing your power armor your weapon assorted spells and armor.
Genereping back to your apartment with half your shit gone and you still are stuck with negative soullight.
How is that a SPANKING you might as well get permadeath if you lose soullight.
Originally posted by Strych9
I would personally like to have it so that the SL system is fixed (no damn droner bugs) AND that a neg SL runner couldnt work off ANY neg SL by sitting in their apartment.
Do those two things, and I would totally be in favor of only one drop for sure.
Yeah - that would get my vote :)
EDIT---------
PK - just my opinion.
Personally, if I have done something so wrong that I have got neg SL and I have to go work it off somewhere, I would just make sure I hunt a little, run away, hunt somewhere else, etc...
Adds to the excitement of a game...
I remember once, I was the last man standing at an OP war and I had 7 very angry members of SS chasing me (think it was SS, maybe NDA). They chased me over 2 zones - I tell you, was real exciting :)
Originally posted by Jerto
Moreover, not everyone is a hacker so that limits the risks.
Most red belts a newbie tank hacker can open. Or failing that get someone to open for you.
Anyway, for those who were around when they had this system before will realise how much of an advantage this is for killing people. lame newbie PK'ers won't avail of going red anyway, but for those who are basically itching for a fight (Vet for example).
And if there is only 1 item, you can lose a rare, ok, but you can also lose a medikit.
Expensive items only. Or how about they drop one item but not in a quickbelt, as the actual item only (but would have to do something about rez killing).
Originally posted by Q`alooaith
Now where do PKer's hang out.. I know I know.. Safe zones..
Appartments..
If you PK allies you desirve everything you get.
Welcome to the "doesn't get it" club. REDs cannot hang out in safe zones, copbots shoot them.
As for apartments, the NCPD lists off every apartment they own. They can't go down from the apt in a safe zone without getting gunned down by a copbot and in other areas people can camp then entrance (or guess the passwords and go up).
Q`alooaith
30-01-04, 17:09
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Rince how do you consider..
Being tracked down by an angry mob.
Losing your power armor your weapon assorted spells and armor.
Genereping back to your apartment with half your shit gone and you still are stuck with negative soullight.
How is that a SPANKING you might as well get permadeath if you lose soullight.
That sound's about right..
Rember your the one that stired up the mob in the first place by killing allies...
Now you can repent and go punch aggy's for SL, or go out buy another weapon and armor and go on another killing spree..
Being criminal is viable, as in there are places you can go where NPC's won't shoot you.. It does not mean that being the bad guy is easy..
Worryed about lsing gear, My old tank had lot's of neg SL before I rerolled, I died many time's over and replaced armor and weapon's many time's, while still going out and killing more people..
It's all about how much your willing to put into being the bad guy.
Originally posted by Archeus
Welcome to the "doesn't get it" club. REDs cannot hang out in safe zones, copbots shoot them.
As for apartments, the NCPD lists off every apartment they own. They can't go down from the apt in a safe zone without getting gunned down by a copbot and in other areas people can camp then entrance (or guess the passwords and go up). I am not trying to be stubborn here... but can someone tell me whats wrong with using the citycom in your apartment, taking a launcher mission, genrepping to battledome or any op you have access to and that has launchers near by, running out, killing launchers, and then genrepping back to your apartment?
Seriously, am I missing the problem with that?
It seems everyone assumes that you must leave your apartments via the lifts at all times.
Psycho Killa 100 % agree
The only ones that can go on killing spree atm is a tank with a Speed gun "because he cant drop that fucking epic weapon!!!" :D
Or take me as a APU. I go out kill my enemies in Dark and yay - 33 SL. I can drop all my spells and PA atm.
5 slotted PB
artifact HL
artifact FA
artifact HAB
artifact Firestorm
Then again I would only have HL on me and a crappy PB if so :p
But then I would loose them with a chance of 100% "nice odds"
So put in F as in fun in NC :D :rolleyes: :lol:
This is PvP FPSRPG and not a simsonline game go and carebare in some other game plz "hint hint: SWG *points*"
Originally posted by Strych9
Seriously, am I missing the problem with that?
By the time you have GR'ed out the NCPD screen will update your location of where you have gone. So it is just a simple matter of the person GR'ing and following you (although it will more then likely be groups/clans of people).
With the current system playing the role of a criminal is not a question of balls imo, when you see a red player chances are that he is either bugged or killed YO's in a mistake with AoE weapons.
Any decent pk'er knows how to avoid the SL system, and they will do unless the game mechanics allow us to play the criminal/cop roles.
The NCPD screen is a big step towards the good direction, however dropping 5 items in death, with no safe slot either, is an excesive harsh measure.
The difference between carrying two rares in an anarchy zone, and being red dropping 1 item everywhere without safe slot is quite clear, I'm surprised you even suggested it as a valid reason.
1- You choose the place to kill (i.e. anarchy zone), while the criminal doesnt have a choice, he will be chased across the zones (probably by you and your friends), and chances are that if you face him in a warzone, while he drops an item (no safe slot) you drop none.
2- You choose to PvP with two weapons at your own risk, whereas the criminal player killer dont have a choice, he needs his weapon to fight and he can drop it regardless of location.
I think Lucjan explain it perfectly. With the current system no one gains, it's more or less useless... criminals dont exist, and bounty hunters are a bunch of bored people chasing droners, bugged people and newbs who dont know anything about AoE weapons yet.
Some days ago I read a thread of VetteroX going to MB, and the capped Mercs there did not bother in chasing him, because it is a waste of time. He is forced to avoid the SL hits, and he doest it pretty well; so the result is him pk'ing newbs in the hope of capped players showing up, and capped players not showing because he will drop nothing in dead (oh wait, his hack tool :p), and tomorrow will be there again pk'ing.
With the suggested change by Archeus those guys have a reason to chase him, he has a reason to think twice pk'ing there, and no one is wasting time, but instead having fun.
The Soullight system is a DOOM at the moment, I suggest you to make it as a status in Neocron.
Psycho Killa
30-01-04, 17:29
Originally posted by Q`alooaith
Now you can repent and go punch aggy's for SL, or go out buy another weapon and armor and go on another killing spree..
Ok another 3 million to replace a rare (You have no hope of killing a capped player if your not using a rare or unless your an apu which would be the worse pker since you drop so fast. 100 to 200k to replace armor. Ok now that my 10 mil is gone in a day now what?
Punch aggies WHERE? IM GETTING TRACKED IN THE CITYCOM BY ANYONE WHO WANTS TO KNOW WHERE I AM.
Its impossible to raise soullight now since you are fair game to anyone whos literate enough to reade the citycom.
I DO NOT WANT THIS SO I CAN GANK PEOPLE.
I WANT TO HUNT PEOPLE WITH NEGATIVE SOULLIGHT DOWN AND MAKE MONEY KILLING THEM
Any one on the citycom list is a poor unfortunate sap who accidenly hit some yo vendors in an op fight.
Pkers now JUST JOIN A FACTION WITH LOTS OF RED PLAYERS.
These people now would be tempted by green and would show up on the list so now you have a chance of getting revenge on the people who WOULD HAVE PKED YOU EITHER WAY.
If i wanna pk Im black dragon I have a 100000 people to chose from. IF i kill a couple neutrals or allies i run a few missions before I even get red soullight its easy enough to avoid the soullight penalties THIS WILL MAKE IT SO PEOPLE DONT CARE ABOUT AVOIDING IT AS MUCH and will end up punishing pkers more SINCE NO PKERS IN THERE RIGHT MIND GETS NEGATIVE SOULLIGT
WAKE UP AND SMELL THE FUCKING COFFEE
Devils Grace
30-01-04, 17:31
i say kiss my ass all u bountry hunters:lol:
if im red i will be at solinko with a bunch of turrents and stuns and 3 ppu's .................so come and get me:D :lol:
Originally posted by Sleawer
when you see a red player chances are that he is either bugged or killed YO's in a mistake with AoE weapons.
Not wishing to sound rude, but that's bullshit.
The ones I have come across are friends of mine and they know I wouldn't attack them. All the REDs that I have seen are because they have killed peeps they shouldn't have.
Sure there are exception - but not that many.
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Fuck this game and all you people who play it.
YOUR SUPPPOSE TO BE ABLE TO BE A FUCKING RED SOULLIGHT PERSON DIDNT YOU KNOW THAT????
YOUR SUPPOSE TO BE EVIL ITS JUST SUPPOSE TO BE HARDER WHAT ISNT HARDER ABOUT BEING TRACKED DOWN BY BOUNTY HUNTERS HAVING NO SAFE SLOT AND DROPPING SHIT IN WARZONES?!
You guys are crackheads if you ever EVER see anyone on the ncpd list it will be poor innocent victims who fucked there soullight up you will never see a "criminal"
Where are you gonna do missions outside of nc when people are fucking hunting you down 24 7?
omg someone pass this tard some rytalin. chill the fuck out. yelling isnt going to get your point across any easier.
most of all chill out, not everyone is going to agree with you
Originally posted by WebShock
omg someone pass this tard some rytalin. chill the fuck out.
ROFL :lol:
Sometimes peeps just gotta agree to disagree - like me and Strych9. We agreed that Pluto is better than Saturn ;)
waits for comments...
:D
havent read whole thread, but until they fix the problem with losing SL to vendors in OPs they shouldnt really have any kind of red SL extra punishment, my tank can get -34 if one slack ass moonie rocket goes off course..........its bullshit, OPs are a place of major battles and the only people you should worry about accidentally hitting is youre own clannies, not some vendors..........the only time Ive ever had red SL is because of that, not because Ive went on some crazed ass rampage killing my own faction members.......and usually the only people who do that do it in warzones as well so they lose NO SL............again its bullshit........and now with this LE "fix"(more like a destruction) its nearly impossible to get SL back with theyre ever so fast 1 SL per mission fix..........
@GT_Rince..
Then pluto must be a rare place, because in Saturn every pk'er I met goes to Black Dragon, TG, or whatever is the faction with less people and more enemies at the moment, and PK everyone without SL loss.
Not so long ago threads complaining about YO's in OP's sprang in these forums, same as droner's complaing by their SL losses due drones bug's (I have a droner btw).
Seriously, currently: "red != evil guy" but instead "red = I dont know how to avoid the game mechanics"
By the way Rince, you are a Twilight Guardian? why do you have green SL? Measure your answer with what you said before about what SL is for in the game, and you will easily find the contradiction.
PS: oh and I got offended, I dont speak 'bullshit'. I can have bad grammar due not being a native english, but usually try to be respectful with people... you could at the very least do the same.
Shadow Dancer
30-01-04, 17:45
If everyone dropped valuable stuff all the time when they died I could understand how the hardcore ANTI-PKAR attitudes in here.
But you don't really gain much unless you can hack AND the other person is unlucky enough to drop a rare(if they even carried one).
Yet somehow dropping 5 items AND having no safeslot is ok for a pker?
:rolleyes:
Originally posted by Sleawer
@GT_Rince..
Then pluto must be a rare place, because in Saturn every pk'er I met goes to Black Dragon, TG, or whatever is the faction with less people and more enemies at the moment, and PK everyone without SL loss.
Not so long ago threads complaining about YO's in OP's sprang in these forums, same as droner's complaing by their SL losses due drones bug's (I have a droner btw).
Seriously, currently: "red != evil guy" but instead "red = I dont know how to avoid the game mechanics"
By the way Rince, you are a Twilight Guardian? why do you have green SL? Measure your answer with what you said before about what SL is for in the game, and you will easily find the contradiction.
PS: oh and I got offended, I dont speak 'bullshit'. I can have bad grammar due not being a native english, but usually try to be respectful with people... you could at the very least do the same.
1) I said that is bullshit because what YOU said was "when you see a red player chances are that he is either bugged or killed YO's in a mistake with AoE weapons." and that is bullshit. As I said, I didn't wish to sound rude, so I will choose another word ----- cobblers.. better ?
2) "By the way Rince, you are a Twilight Guardian? why do you have green SL? Measure your answer with what you said before about what SL is for in the game, and you will easily find the contradiction." Can you explain please?
3) See number 1
Fight for freedom is not equal to a criminal...
And red SL aint an option atm.
*Goes and blow his head off with a nerfed HL*
In response to your number 1:
With the current system playing the role of a criminal is not a question of balls imo, when you see a red player chances are that he is either bugged or killed YO's in a mistake with AoE weapons.
This is not bullshit, this is what I see ingame, inforums, and what I'd do myself if I were a pk'er.
You can choose the word you please, but if you dont want to be rude, then dont say anything rude.
In response to your number 2:
"Red SL people are criminals" is the most used argument in this thread against the suggested change, therefore the Soullight system penalyzes criminal roles. Twilight Guardian is a faction of people playing a criminal role, just like BD, TS or Crahn, and this is a mmo-roleplaygame.
That is the contradiction. If the reason of SL to stay is not pk'ing allies, that could be achieved perfectly with the Faction Loyalty feature, and we would need one less "bugmaker feature".
Believe it or not, but some of us joined our factions to play the roles assigned to them, and I know for sure that I'm not the only one who would be proud of having Red Soullight. With me are many Tsunami, BD, Crahn and TG.
You dont agree? ok, I respect your opinion, but we are entitled to give our opinions without someone calling us bullshit speakers.
-Sleawer
PS: T0tt3, you dont want to discuss with me what's the crime and what's a desviant behaviour. I study laws, I know what I say... at least in that matter. Let's not enter in technicisms.
I didnt think the NCPD thingy in the CityCom showed the current zone of the player?
The person I saw on there, it only showed the list of his appartments.
i think it has another box saying where they are cos it worked on test server, said there was a red SL -37 runner at MB zone, so went there and there the evil runner was, so it works
Q`alooaith
30-01-04, 18:36
Killa, unless you have pissed off some people who you don't want to piss off the chances that somone will go out of their way to track you down more than once?
You can PvP without rare weapons, what the hell do you think I do untill I've leveled up to using rares, yea, I use normal weapon's...
Point is, if people are going out of their way to kill you, you must have done somthing to desirve it, if you've done nothing to desirve it then your looking at a few attack's when you log on, they can tell where you where, but not where you are going.
If you've low SL and your sticking about near TG, TH and MB you'd expect to be found sooner or later. Moving often and changing location..
Originally posted by Sleawer
"Red SL people are criminals" is the most used argument in this thread against the suggested change, therefore the Soullight system penalyzes criminal roles. Twilight Guardian is a faction of people playing a criminal role, just like BD, TS or Crahn, and this is a mmo-roleplaygame.
LOL :lol: TG are freedom fighters, not criminals. They were supposed to free the people from Reeza's grip - get facts straight 1st please :) The game evolves and everyone RP's the way they want to. I see nowhere there is any contradiction - just thought I would point this fact out to you... :rolleyes:
I am fully aware of what sort of game it is - I point it out to enough peeps myself... I wasn't sure what you were saying in the other bits, so not bothered quoting them.
Originally posted by GT_Rince
LOL :lol: TG are freedom fighters, not criminals.
one mans criminal is anothers freedom fighter
Originally posted by ezza
one mans criminal is anothers freedom fighter
I am not quoting from something that has been made up - that is the role the TG were supposed to play. Ironic really as they are now KoS to most factions :D
Originally posted by GT_Rince
I am not quoting from something that has been made up - that is the role the TG were supposed to play. Ironic really as they are now KoS to most factions :D yers but they are onyl freedom fighters to themselves, would CA/TT/BD/DRE/BIO etc concider them freedom fighters, i dont think so(i think the TG are deluding themselves withsuch thoughs)
edit: rince no need to quote that i know what your talking about, but the fact is in the game they aint freedom fighters, cos they kill the ones they want to free
From the NC Manual:
"Idealistic, uncompromising, enthusiastic. That is what the men and women of the Twilight Guardian movement are or at least try to be. In their fight against the current despotic Neocron regime they are all determined to even give their lives if need be, in the fight which they have taken up to create a better future for the people of Neocron. Or to put it in their own words: “Freedom is our law!”
Q`alooaith
30-01-04, 18:52
Originally posted by GT_Rince
I am not quoting from something that has been made up - that is the role the TG were supposed to play. Ironic really as they are now KoS to most factions :D
Hmmm, and how did TG start out I can't quite rember.. oh wait now I do..
All the PKer's joined TG cause there where no copbot's and they could hang out there till they got SL back.. thing is they turned in on each other in orgy's of death and chaos...
No faction is squeeky clean.. everyone's the bad guy's..
I'm not talking about PKers - I'm talking (from a RP perspective) what TG is supposed to be about.
I do have to admit to it being a little strange that TG are supposed to be freedom fighters and being KOS to almost everyone. I think the storyline took a nosedive at some point :D
Q`alooaith
30-01-04, 18:59
Originally posted by GT_Rince
I'm not talking about PKers - I'm talking (from a RP perspective) what TG is supposed to be about.
TG are as evil as all the other factions...
There is no good faction. Think of TG as the people who would plant a bomb to kill one person they see as bad or needing to be taken down, it would not matter to them that the same bomb kill's many inocent people..
All the faction's are evil...
OK - I'm not gonna bother with this any more - some peeps have a (very) blinkered view and go off at a tangent - you fill in all the little gaps you need. :rolleyes:
I have my facts very well straightened Rince, you want to know what is the crime?
Crime is what a community or State punishes.
Now tell me that TG are not criminals. Get your facts before suggesting me to do so.
In the game manual it says how Twilight Guardians see themselves, as freedom fighters. Do you want to know what's the name for those freedom fighters in the history of any nation?
Terrorists, criminals, murderers.
In my country we deal every day with terrorists, freedom fighters call themseleves, yet they murder the same people that they want to free, the ones that dont agree with them, and anyone that they consider a threat.
TG? hah.
Now you want a name in sociology for the manual definition that you copy-pasted here?
'Merton' called it rebelion, people that do not accept the resources and the goals of the society, and try to impose their own ones, by force if necessary.
Crime is a social concept, different from behaviours, we say what is crime and what is not, our rules say it.
Twilight Guardians are as criminals as Black Dragon or Tsunami, honourable their purposes or not.
There... now we have hijacked the thread.
Originally posted by Sleawer
I have my facts very well straightened Rince, you want to know what is the crime?
Crime is what a community or State punishes.
Now tell me that TG are not criminals. Get your facts before suggesting me to do so.
In the game manual it says how Twilight Guardians see themselves, as freedom fighters. Do you want to know what's the name for those freedom fighters in the history of any nation?
Terrorists, criminals, murderers.
In my country we deal every day with terrorists, freedom fighters call themseleves, yet they murder the same people that they want to free, the ones that dont agree with them, and anyone that they consider a threat.
TG? hah.
Now you want a name in sociology for the manual definition that you copy-pasted here?
'Merton' called it rebelion, people that do not accept the resources and the goals of the society, and try to impose their own ones, by force if necessary.
Crime is a social concept, different from behaviours, we say what is crime and what is not, our rules say it.
Twilight Guardians are as criminals as Black Dragon or Tsunami, honourable their purposes or not.
There... now we have hijacked the thread.
ROFL :lol: Dude - you need to know when to separate reality from a game
Aaaanyway - this thread has died a useless death. Discuss sociology amongst yourselves....
lol
Originally posted by Q`alooaith
Point is, if people are going out of their way to kill you, you must have done somthing to desirve it, if you've done nothing to desirve it then your looking at a few attack's when you log on, they can tell where you where, but not where you are going.
I must be playing a different game.
There are people in the game who don't give a toss. They will kill you regardless just because it pisses you off to die, and don't look for challange. Lets call them PK1.
Then we have the people who like killing others. We will call them PK2.
Then we have the ones who fight because they like getting easy loot (bounty hunters). Call them PK3.
So the current system with the NCPD and belt drop system rewards PK1,2,3 players. PK1 should never get rewarded (and before NCPD the system kept them in check). PK2 should really be red but won't because of the current drop system.
Now as for red players the majority (at least on Pluto) are normally due to bugs not rampant PK'ing. There are rampant pk'ers but they tend to do within thier faction constraints (F6 roleplay).
With a 1 item drop (no safe slot, always drop, easy hack or no hack). Then PK1 would be more in check as PK2 would move to red and whack them while PK3 gets rewarded for playing the bounty hunter system and more would hunt PK2.
Meanwhile those reds who are trying to work off SL because of bugs/accidents can still work away without having to be finacially broken.
Clownst0pper
30-01-04, 19:13
Make an addition that the runner is aware when there profile is being looked at. A message of some sort. :cool:
Better a criminal TG then a blind Rezza follower ;-)
Sorry, I just couldnt resist ;P
Actually youre both right to an extend Rince & Sleawer...
Still, if I chose a criminal life, why can't I live that way. Losing 5 of my best items with a last location like thingy accessible for everyone isnt viable for a negative SL lifestyle I would like to chose.
Originally posted by Lucjan
Better a criminal TG then a blind Rezza follower ;-)
Sorry, I just couldnt resist ;P
:lol: Had to be said ;)
Q`alooaith
30-01-04, 19:23
Tp be totaly and utterly honist..
If you've gotten yourself low enough SL to be appearing on the system, then I don't care why or how you've got it. I don't care what excuses you have, I realy don't care if you end up broke.
The system's in place work, they are not perfect, but they do work.
I would agree with you except for the bugs. Try getting -80 SL because someone died in the same zone as your drone and you never once hit them.
Still, if I chose a criminal life, why can't I live that way. Losing 5 of my best items with a last location like thingy accessible for everyone isnt viable for a negative SL lifestyle I would like to chose.
Actually what would be nice to add to NCPD is a list of where all the reds belts are (add with 1 item drop). This also means people can go get loot.
@Rofl to lucjan :p
Yea Rince, ingame I was TG and now I am Crahn so dont really have a problem with that, but the questions were more towards real life definitions... that's why I hijacked the thread of that awful way heh (with your help :p).
So sorry back to topic, I agree with Archeus for the reasons stated above, tho these are only raw ideas I guess.
Part of the problem is that people want all of the cool violence and trouble-causing that goes along with being a "criminal" but they dont want the hardship that goes along with it as well.
Overall I say drop ALL comparisons to actual criminals in actual society. If anyone presses for those, the PKers that want to be criminals would end up on the losing end of that discusssion, as compared to real life criminals, in game criminals have it VERY easy.
So look at this only from a gaming perspective. Should "criminal" be treated the same as "law abiding citizen" in terms of playing ease?
First, remember that neg SL means you attack runners in hunting zones or you attack allied/neutral runners. If you attack enemy runners, you ARE NOT BREAKING RULES AND ARE NOT A CRIMINAL.
So, should criminals have it the same as non-criminals?
I say no.
Its not like you get neg SL for just killing. You get it for killing allies, friend (per the game's faction system).
So per the game's rule system, you should have it rough. There should be a penalty. You are breaking the rules (durrrr... thus why a "criminal").
It shouldnt be impossible to play of course, but it shouldnt be easy. I would say it should be "tough" to the point that those that maintain neg SL would actually be skilled players. Staying in perm neg SL should be something worth boasting about.
I would rather see them raise the drop on normal SL(ie GReen SL) to two items (safeslot intact) ...yellow SL = 3 item drop (with Safeslot_) and red 4 item drop (no safeslot)
[edit] oh yeah for stupidly high SL like + 100 only drop one item
I don't see ANY justification why people with red SL should be treated differently to people with red SL in terms of item drops. You're good, so you get to keep all your items, but he's bad, so he drops 5 items on death and none of them are protected. Why would anyone want to be bad?
Haven't any of you people who call TG, and BD bad, evil people realised that if red SL didn't have stupid penalties you'd actually have grounds to prove it?
Yah if red SL was viable then Protopharma would be the new choice of pker factions haha.
Originally posted by Scikar
I don't see ANY justification why people with red SL should be treated differently to people with red SL in terms of item drops. You're good, so you get to keep all your items, but he's bad, so he drops 5 items on death and none of them are protected. Why would anyone want to be bad?Do you not realize how funny that sounds? Why would anyone want to be bad?
EXACTLY
KK in OOC terms doesnt want runners to be bad.
In IC terms, the factions dont want runners killing their own faction or allied factions.
So you tell ME... why do people want to be bad?
If you concede that people in game with neg SL are criminals IC, then how can you not concede that they should be punished?
If you are good... YOU ARE NOT PUNISHED thus you keep your stuff.
I mean... fake or real society, I think we can expect the bad to be punished.
I don't see it as deliberately massacring one's own faction members or faction allies. Doing that should get you kicked out of your faction. Having low SL should simply mean that you are indiscriminate about killing people - i.e. a person with high SL is generally honourable and trustworthy, would probably do his best to avoid killing a faction ally who attacked him, etc, whereas a low SL runner will see an enemy and kill him, and generally shoot anyone who shoots at him without concern for the consequences. SL and factions should be more independant from one another.
Yes, but you have to have proporcionality in the punishment, or people would simply avoid it.
You think the 5 items drop prevents a pk'er killing allies?
It just makes him to do with measure, nothing else.
Stablish a proporcinal punishment like the suggested in this thread, and then KK will be able to enforce the SL system much more without anyone complaining. And tell you what, people still will go to red SL, because the punishment is accordinly with the rest of rules.
1 item drop and safe slot is incredibly far from 5 items drop and no safe slot. Hence no one is red, but still allies get PK'ed.. instead using what could be a great game feature to set a status in the game, we have to work around it, avoiding the penalization, yet doing the same crimes that should be punished.
Yea let's sepparate it from the real life crime-punishment code, because I'd hate to see crap like that in real life to be honest.
Originally posted by Scikar
I don't see it as deliberately massacring one's own faction members or faction allies. Doing that should get you kicked out of your faction.
It actually does that now.
The issue isn't that reds are getting an easy deal, the issue is that it is now insanely hard when red, going red is pretty much runner suicide.
Also the majority of who is red is not by any fault of thier own.
Originally posted by Archeus
It actually does that now.
The issue isn't that reds are getting an easy deal, the issue is that it is now insanely hard when red, going red is pretty much runner suicide.
Also the majority of who is red is not by any fault of thier own.
Well you only get kicked out if you're unclanned. If you have a clan you can go kill faction allies all you like and not worry about a thing.
Psycho Killa
30-01-04, 21:51
You guys just dont realise you suppose to be able to play the role of a crimnal.
How they described it when i first started playing is that if you got red soullight you where banished from the city and it was made harder for you to be a fugitive from the law. Its harder to get a tradeskiler. You cant acces many places just the shops found randomly in wastelands and the outzonee sectors.
As it is now it is impossible to be a red soullight criminal. If you think is viable now im just going to put you on ingore forever and never listen to you since I know you arent even playing the same game that I am.
I am black dragon I can kill (most populated on pluto)
Twilight guardians
City admin
Tsunami
City mercs
Fallen angels
I cant kill without losing soullight.
Cranh sect (one clan on all of pluto thats active)
Biotech (only people doing epics otherwise its empty)
Protopharma(doing epics or empty)
Other black dragons.
Now under the current system I can gank the living shit out of everyone on the first list and never suffer apenalty. I can kill 3 or so of the second list then do missions and be back on my pking ways (Ihavent gone on a pk streak aside ppuing pkers in like over a year) Now I return to killing people do missions again repeat gank whoever I want WITHOUT penalty.
Under the new system if i killed allies or neutrals I would not immediately do missions because I dont have to to avoid not being able to play the game ever again. I continue pking who I want. Now I show up on the ncpd system (If you dont think anyone is going to hunt me down your ignorant or havent played the same game I have theres tons of people sitting around plaza with nothing to do now they have something to do also I will be the number one target of other pkers since I have no safe slot and can be tracked down with ease.) I also have no safe slot as I mentioned and I drop a belt which can be opened with the littles of hack skills.
More "pker" will lose precious items under this system then any other way since they will never carry anything of value on them when they can drop five items.
I realise yelling wont get my point across I just see 0 points in anything anyone has said. The people who are against this might as well ask for people who get negative soullight to be forced to reroll. When I was going all nuts earlier the vote was like 4 for and 9 against so I was getting a bit aggravated.
I know im not crazy when i first started playing it was said you could be a criminal but would suffer the consequences. Now the consequences are so far that I have NEVER seen someone with that low of a soullight aside people with bugs and people doing missions to quickly regain there soullight before noone finds them. Now with the ncpd people will find them and they will be fucked.
Red soullight is suppose to be a lifestlye not a death sentence.
To prove my point I am going to make 2000 spitfire gats and shelters and heal and some armor and I am going to hunt everyone of you down and I will report back how many times I have been hunted down.
Actually with -32 or more sl this proposed belt system and the new citycom system it will suit some players to get fucked up sl so 'bounty hunters' will go after them and will get the pvp that they so crave and from people who want it not ganked newbs.
I see this as an advantage not a diadvantage.
Sorry for editing the post but I forgot to type all of what I meant to.
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
I cant kill without losing soullight.
Cranh sect (one clan on all of pluto thats active)
Biotech (only people doing epics otherwise its empty)
Protopharma(doing epics or empty)
Other black dragons.
Hehe PK you nib.
Biotech = SXR and quant
Crahn = a few small clans too, also Hunting
Also NEXT + Tangent. :p
And yes going red is no way in hell viable.
Originally posted by Mr_Snow
Actually with -32 or more sl and the new citycom system it will suit some players to get fucked up sl so 'bounty hunters' will go after them and will get the pvp that they so crave and from people who want it not ganked newbs.
I see this as an advantage not a diadvantage.
Not with a 5 item drop, as long as that is in game you will see the PK'ers playing the gank+mission game.
I know I thought I said with the proposed belt system but must of forgot to.
Psycho Killa
30-01-04, 22:13
Nm yes under his idea but currently its impossible with five item drop.
I personaly would love the excitement of having red soullight but its IMPOSSIBLE now.
I edited that post because I didnt type all I meant to sorry for the inconsistancy.
unbelievable that 18 noobs actually say NO to this
fuck...being RED SL SHOULD BE VIABLE for CHRIST SAKE
one of the more FUN things in mmorpg's is seeing a RED(aka murderer) character running around trying to kill everone, and all the high SL players backing him up
also, red SL players should stick together and fight the non-red SL characters
this NCPD thing is 100% useless until they make being red VIABLE
Okay.
So you can gank every populated faction on pluto without recourse. Now you have to decide if ganking one of your very few allied/neutral/same factions is worth the effort to get your SL above -32.
Sorry if this doesnt strike me as killing off the game or anything.
I guess maybe we differ in that being able to gank the majority of the server would be enough for me.
:confused:
Man it would make being red viable not the best thing ever, you wont be able to set foot in NC you probably wont be able to set foot in DOY either and theres a chance of losing one of your rares if you do get hunted down and killed what makes life so easy there?
It would make being red viable for those who dont mind these disadvantages but make pking the easiest and best thing ever.
Actually I dont think it's a matter of being able to gank all the server, instead it is more related to the status of being a criminal, playing that role in the game.
The idea is being special, everyone can kill enemy factions without penalty or reproach for it, but very few decide to go over the edge and adquire the status of outlaw.
At the moment we have relatively several 'rpkers' that in a bad day can decide to eliminate their allied faction members, but that's only because the current system is avoidable, you get no penalty (dont turn red) for killing one, two or three friendly players; then just do some missions before the SL is red and you are sorted.
With the suggested system here working I would advice to enforce the SL system, once being a criminal is more possible I dont see a reason to have this soft system that allows us to work around it, avoiding the penalties.
I agree. I mean it makes sense that NeXT cannot stop an item dropping, and it makes sense that they don't want to waste time protecting a slot of a criminal. What doesn't make sense is why they carefully drop more items from more people. (the no GR retrieval makes sense too)
It should be all or nothing, and as there is no way in hell people will accept an all drop rule for Neg SL, drop 1 item like the rest of us.
Steve
Personally, I like the SL/belt drop system the way it is.......
I don't like the bugs(drone, YO's venders etc.) that come with it, though....
There's nothing like the rush of hacking a QB, and having it chocked full of stuff.......
So, fix the SL bugs and I see nothing wrong with the current belt drop system......
What's the matter you guys, is it getting a little lonely sitting on top of the NCPD Top Ten list, all by your lonesome?
Sweating bullets, maybe?
heh...
Originally posted by Spoon
What's the matter you guys, is it getting a little lonely sitting on top of the NCPD Top Ten list, all by your lonesome?
Sweating bullets, maybe?
Ive had minus sl twice, once for killing bio npcs when I was a merc and second for killing a neutral faction for symp, but just because Im not a pker doesnt mean I dont think that their type of player should be amazingly punished and if anything this change will promote pvp and will make ganker pkers happier because they will be hunted and get the high level pvp from bounty hunters and not from ganking newbs
Originally posted by Spoon
What's the matter you guys, is it getting a little lonely sitting on top of the NCPD Top Ten list, all by your lonesome?
Sweating bullets, maybe?
Not that at all. Bother to watch the NCPD for a while. You can tell exactly where someone is and where they are going quite easy. Watched someone a few minutes ago leave thier apt, go to PP then to the sewer, then PP, then the sewer then thier Apt.
what a bunch of carebears....
jeez this game could actually be FUN instead of BORING if it wasn't for whiny carebears playing it
i always looked at the SL as to show status of the person rather than anything major like ooo your gonna drop your rares shit, why should the people who want to play a evil char get fucked over just cos they chose a non standard play style
ive always wondered why a red SL person suddenly drops all his shit yeah that makes sence
The 5 drop rule will also mean that no Red SL person will go to OZ8. Whats the point of dropping five items when the Yellows will only drop one.
What I dont get is people saying that pkers should be punished but inreality all you have to do is kill 2 people do 2 missions and go kill people again its not as if it makes a difference if people just waste time doing missions or dont and risk a rare.
I really dont see anyones problem with this but meh.
Well let's look at it plainly. If you have red SL, CopBots KoS you, and with DoY, if you are an enemy of the city, then you'll get killed even if you have green SL. So, if you want to be protected from all the bad people in the game, stay in the city and be protected. If you think those bad people should be punished, then go out, hunt them down, and kill them.
The NCPD can only act reasonably within the area around Neocron. Therefore it makes sense that outside this area is completely lawless. If you want to make order and law out of the wastelands, then you have to do it yourself. KK should provide the means to make all sides of this viable.
No.
Can't be arsed to read whole thread - I can imagine it pretty well I'm sure.
If you get -32 SL you should have to live with the consequences.
Why should there be consequences apart from being outlawed from the city?
Psycho Killa
31-01-04, 03:05
Being banned from the city
No safe slot
Extremely easy to hack belt
Can be tracked down through city com.
Thats not bad enough of consequences that you want them to drop 5 items also?
Originally posted by Scikar
The NCPD can only act reasonably within the area around Neocron. Therefore it makes sense that outside this area is completely lawless. If you want to make order and law out of the wastelands, then you have to do it yourself. KK should provide the means to make all sides of this viable.
EXACTLY!
Red soullight is suppose to be a lifestlye not a death sentence.
I cannot figure out upon what you base this statement on. Red soullight is for people who break their faction's rules (don't kill allies and neutrals). Green soullight is for those who don't break their factions rules. Red soullight is not supposed to be a symbol of l33tness. The fact that you're BD or TG (or eventually AB I suppose) should suffice.
Good/evil is not universal. BD and TG have many enemy factions to kill without breaking their faction's internal rules.
This business of "red soullight should be viable" is a smokescreen, a fallacy. You're already "evil" by virtue of your faction membership. You want to be "evil" and have your own faction and allies/neutrals hate you too? You can't have your cake and eat it too.
My feeling is if you kill 1 allied faction member or 1 neutral you should drop to red soullight immediately.
Red soullight is a penalty imposed upon you by your FACTION for anti-social behavior, not a lifestyle.
in that case they should give us a faction that is red to all
Originally posted by ezza
[....]why should the people who want to play a evil char get fucked over just cos they chose a non standard play style
ive always wondered why a red SL person suddenly drops all his shit yeah that makes sence
Maybe, because this game has "rules"/parameters and if you don't follow them you pay the price, the price in this case is dropping 5 items........
KK made those rules for a reason......
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I find the the Top Ten list pretty interesting and I think it adds content to the game*gasp*.
I monitered the List for about 20 minutes on Pluto, and never saw anyone on it, on Saturn, tho, there were 3 people on it, one in there apt., one that was in the same Wasteland sector for about 20 minutes(that I watched), and another in the OZ, for about 10 minutes(that I noticed), they seemed to be dealing with it(except for the guy in his apt., maybe)......
What do you people want to be able to kill anyone without regard to their Faction or the zone your in, with no consequences?
I'm just waiting for one of those old school PK'ers to come into this thread, wanting to nerf the Top Ten list...
You remember them, don't you?, the same people who wanted one or more items(if not your whole inventory) to drop with no quickbelt....
btw, I remember a time back in beta and early retail, when your location was in the CityCom all the time, regardless of your SL, no QB or Safeslot back then, either......
if you have red soul light... you have 2 options.. dont leave your apartment... or put in your LE and go do missions at MB... but if you chose to go play without ur LE in and run in the city --> get shot by copbots --> i cant wait to hack your belt... or see you "trying" to do missions without your LE in... either way its free stuff for me =) keep it the way it is
Originally posted by Spoon
Maybe, because this game has "rules"/parameters and if you don't follow them you pay the price, the price in this case is dropping 5 items........
KK made those rules for a reason......
Rules which have changed since this patch. The game is fluid. Something that may of worked a few patches back may not be best for the games mechanics.
Anyway the fact jailhouse exists means they are least looking at reds being somewhat viable.
Originally posted by ezza
in that case they should give us a faction that is red to all
Can we have a faction that is green to everyone?
Peeping Tom
31-01-04, 13:41
you cant exactly be on a killing spreeee if you CAN only KILL 3 fucking ppl before your sl gets close to RED sl punishment is way to carebear\harse atm
voted yes btw
K4F
carebears go home 5 item drop is retarded
Originally posted by Mattimeo
Can we have a faction that is green to everyone?
I'd agree to that, but there would have to be strict rules on what you do when join.
For example, to reds your just a target and killing someone should turn you red (not yellow, as for the faction of greens killing is serious).
Spoon no one is asking to remove the NCPD system, we all agree that it's a nice feature to bring more action to the game.. but as you said it is empty or with 3 people trying to fix it. In my opinion the NCPD should list runners with -17 and below, but the penalties for being red should be lowered or we will have a great 'useless' feature.
Grim you dont get free stuff, you get nothing because no one can go around with red SL, and now that the LE cannot be re-implanted people preffers to leave their chars in the appt during the night. How fun is that.
Or e-mail helpdesk explaining the reason why they got bad SL trying them to fix it.
Jernau the least you can do before posting in a thread is reading it. I thought you a reasonable person, and we are not asking for anything unreasonable.
Originally posted by Mattimeo
Can we have a faction that is green to everyone?
You realise having a faction green to all and a faction red to all is equivalent to having an unstoppable cannonball collide with an immovable post? :p
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