View Full Version : The Hybrid, for better or worse?
Ok this is NOT a patch bashing thread, in fact these changes to the Hybirds we see now i remember talking about them ages when hybrids were to powerful "cryptocronic days", anyway what we see now is a good move in reducing the % hit on both sides, and also upping the spell reqs is a good move, but KK some people do still enjoy the hybrid, either in pvp "which is pointless now with them" or just for playing the game their own way, having a char that can attack and heal is something most enjoy, and should be viable.
Ok point of my post now, for those starting out and with DOY coming, a lot of new players will not know how bad its going to be to lvl a hybrid, im sure a lot of them will no doubt choose this type of char as it does sound a nice one to have, but there is a problem, with the reqs so high for holy eng halo and the heals balance, it means a LONG gap for the lvler's, which means of course a LONG time lvling with the crap spells at the much higher lvls.
The answer now is a few other spells added that are not as powerful as the next step like beam spells, but will allow lvler's the chance to lvl at a decent speed and still enjoy the game.
Of course we don't want everyone being a monk, or hybrids for that matter, but its there and a choice no one should be forced not to make, as it stands right now you can't have holy eng halo and blessed heal, both needing 120 in their own reqs "apu/ppu" so unless someone wants to stay with a basic TL 3 heal, they need to go for a lower attack spell like a normal eng halo, can anyone see people using that spell again the higher lvl mobs in the caves and such? what about combat ranks being effected by this? it means no more higher lvl teams coz they can't reach those spells, so in the end you got hybrids lvling alone, totally dependant on their own heals and buffs, so they have to be viable as a solo class, what we need now is a spell that is more powerful than a normal halo, but not as powerful as the holy version, and is reachable while still using a blessed heal.
After all, the ppu as the top spells now, and no one else can reach a blessed version of the spells other than a hybrid, so its them this should be aimed at.
Just my thoughts after i logged on to see my wifes hybrid now screwed, she is lomming to pure apu now, she likes to hunt mobs and such, she doesn't pvp, but she is still somewhat nerfed over it, im trying to work out a plan for her to use, but she doesn't feel using a normal eng halo against fire mobs in the canyon to be that effective, i know what she means.
What do others feel about this, be it your a monk or not, opinions?
Tbh i think that the hybrid was changed so it became viable without the Apu Psycho Kami, as it was so rare.
But now the 'good' hybrids have to have a DS to be able to full blessed and holy enr halo.
So its switched from players who have kami's to those who have DS's.
So it will fall down to you are either a leet capped hyb with a DS or a rather poor damage/decent defence or decent damage/ poor defence hybrid.
Dammit
Alex The Great
29-01-04, 17:14
DS is alot easyer to Get then kami if you try you can get a DS in a week or 2 of tradeing and farming mc5.
funkeymonkey
29-01-04, 17:20
I was lvling another apu monk that was gonna be my hybrid, but after reading that it sounds like its not worth it.
TBH i think they should of left the PPW bonus on the DS and PSI core, and then gave all the other chips of the same type (SA, SF, HERC, Marine etc...) the same bonus to WPL considering all the non rare chips like Exp ballistic give 15 to WPL
but the hybrid thing.. dunno mate, how about trying to spec her hybrid to just use the basic spells like the TL 3 heal basic def and shelter and Br 2 (aka PE defenses), she should be fine and still be able to use the bigger spells
DS is alot easyer to Get then kami if you try you can get a DS in a week or 2 of tradeing and farming mc5.
Want to swap my kami for a DS then? :D
Well this is it, i can spec her hybrid to use a basic TL 3 heal, but tbh i dont think a hybrid should be limited to that spell as all other classes have access to it.
A blessed defence is what a hybrid should be limited too, but also the same strenght in offense as well, as it stands you can't do that, im not sure its still possible even with a DS now, anyone checked? and who is going to buy a DS on saturn for 25mill + ? certainly not me.
Like i said she doesn't PvP so alot of the setups we hear about and problems that brought about the hybrid nerfs don't concern her or others like her, the whole problem was in PvP.
Of course how many times do we hear complaints about a PPU or APU, there isnt a week that goes by without that, so you could try this out, its far more radical than what we have currently and means a big shift in game design.
Getting rid of the APU/PPU monks completely, and giving the hybrids back their normal strenght in spells, but instead of making such spells so high up on the reqs, you simply lower the strength on holy spells, we get rid of the insane ROF on HL, get rid of para spells completely, we balance the hybrid with the other classes based on this, we also get rid of the rare antibuff spells, but adding in new weapons that either strip or bypass certain effects "shelters or deflectors", like melee should do with deflectors as melee is not a projectile.
I know a lot will hate that idea but its just a idea, and something i highly doubt will happen as it would change the whole face of neocron as it stands atm, and with DOY coming out they got plans already enough for the game without a major overhaul to it, BUT "and there is always a but" if we look back over the year, KK pushed the single classes instead of the hybrid, they really need to think it through or just completely get rid of the hybrid now and remove it from the game as a playable class, coz its not atm.
again just my own thoughts while i was out picking up the kids.
funkeymonkey
29-01-04, 17:48
Its an idea but not fair on people who enjoy being pures. Ive been an apu for ages and still enjoy running into ops casting barrels and hl trying to take out as many of them with me or sniping people whilst hopeing i can kill them before they notice me. Makes pvping a lot more exciting than when i was a hybrid (before the big nerf).
Alex The Great
29-01-04, 17:50
WTf why did it post for me again?
erm i think u already said that alex :p
The new Hybrid is much weaker because of blessed shelter, he also lost health because no buffs3 anymore, but he has faster Heals and all spells have better freq. With compareable setup than prepatch, Holy Energy Halo goes from 370% to 440%, not that big deal but noticable. There is no chance to reach any highlvl-psi-abilities anymore now.
I hope all people that werent playing Hybrid anymore and cried so loud are happy now with the result...I am not but i will deal with it, nobody will ever force me to go pure, that for i play Hybrid for too long already.
shodanjr_gr
29-01-04, 18:43
Originally posted by evs
Want to swap my kami for a DS then? :D
Ill swap ur kami for an xp psi controller 3, cause thats how much its worth now that the way hybrids work has changed :p
Shadow Dancer
29-01-04, 20:55
I tried hybrid. Didn't like it.
The reason I wanted to go hybrid is because of the stupid ass athletics penalty on monk pa now. -25 ath is a HUGE hit. Not ALL OUT agility in dex will save you, you need to lower health or resists(and be even WEAKER) to move at a good speed now. *sigh*
So I tried hybrid. But the damage sux IMO. I don't like the very very very low mana pool and damage, unless you DB in which case it's "decent") of bless/halo hybrids.
Bleh.
yeah, well atm she has just lommed enough ppu and put it into apu just so she can use a holy halo again, but its gimper her defence now big time, she can no longer use blessed heal or even a blessed shelter, she has a shitty TL 3 heal, and a basic resist 3 / a blessed deflector and a normal shelter. I didn't check the dmg and rof she gets on them, hardly think its worth it.
So a hybrid now consists of a PE setup, thats just really stupid, i dont see any reason why a hybrid has to suffer this much, fine they should not have access to the holy heals or HL's, but surely a holy eng halo and blessed heals etc... is ok? I mean its hardly a uber pvp setup, yet its enough to stay alive against hard mobs, and at least have some chance on dmg against those same mobs, also maybe keeping their ranks high enough to lvl with others in teams.
Like i said before, its just out of reach now for that combo, so an alternative should be available, so an extra offensive spell could be used or just lower the holy halo by a few points to make it possible to use it when capped.
I just think "not just for my wife who enjoyed playing the game for the game and no pvp" that its a real shame to see a real end to hybrids like this.
Shadow Dancer
29-01-04, 21:28
The problem IMO has always been the healing capability of a hybrid. Why can't they make it so that you need like 500% on a heal to be able to heal while being hit?
bah
I think that's the way it's suppose to be. I really don't think KK wants hybrids having HEH and blessed PPU spells.
Why is it wrong for hybrids to be played/specced like PE's? PE's themselves are hybrids if you think about it, they just use bullets and plasma instead of psi mods.
Everyone always says that PE's have the best defence, right? Well, a hybrid monk has better armor and gets better stats on s/d/db/heal (basic ones), so in theory, hybrids should now be the toughest solo class. And I think a capped HEH would outdamage most PE weapons, so what's your problem?
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
The reason I wanted to go hybrid is because of the stupid ass athletics penalty on monk pa now. -25 ath is a HUGE hit. Not ALL OUT agility in dex will save you, you need to lower health or resists(and be even WEAKER) to move at a good speed now. *sigh*
u DO know that u don't have to wear PA, do u?
Shadow Dancer
29-01-04, 23:05
Originally posted by Sigma
u DO know that u don't have to wear PA, do u?
It the penalty for not wearing PA wasn't so harsh, I would somewhat agree with your statement.
But gimpy damage and WAYYY gimpy mana pool? 1 or the other, but both? Nah too much.
@ hose187.
A rifle or pistol PE would rip a hybrid to pieces, why? coz if you dont have a DS you gotta use a stupid exp psi controller, which means really bad piece defense, anyone knows bullets hurt a monk more than anything else in this sort of setup. Yes even with a deflector on a capped Lib will rip em up.
having a PE's spell defense doesn't cut it for me, sure we know a hybrid is not meant to have access to the high spells that pure monks have, fair enough, but a hybrid should certainly get access to blessed spells alongside at leas half decent dmg spells.
Originally on test server it was able to do just that, but for some reason they upped the reqs again to stop that setup, I can't see anything wrong with a monk having a blessed heal/d/s and dmg boost and then having a holy eng halo for their offense, if you think that would be to powerful then you should test one out on test server and see for yourself, personally i know it is not that great but its enough to allow monks not only to have a little pvp "even thought they will die rather easy" and also be able to obtain a high enough combat rank for teaming up with pure monks and so on, and also be able to solo when they feel like it for rares and such.
anyway just my thoughts like i said, i was one of the people asking for monk nerfs all those many months ago, but i think the hammer has hit them enough and more than was needed now.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
It the penalty for not wearing PA wasn't so harsh, I would somewhat agree with your statement.
But gimpy damage and WAYYY gimpy mana pool? 1 or the other, but both? Nah too much.
u haven't played a non-PA-monk have u?
Shadow Dancer
30-01-04, 01:13
Originally posted by Sigma
u haven't played a non-PA-monk have u?
You haven't stopped making silly ASSumptions have you?
:rolleyes:
Originally posted by YoDa-UK
@ hose187.
A rifle or pistol PE would rip a hybrid to pieces, why? coz if you dont have a DS you gotta use a stupid exp psi controller, which means really bad piece defense, anyone knows bullets hurt a monk more than anything else in this sort of setup. Yes even with a deflector on a capped Lib will rip em up.
having a PE's spell defense doesn't cut it for me, sure we know a hybrid is not meant to have access to the high spells that pure monks have, fair enough, but a hybrid should certainly get access to blessed spells alongside at leas half decent dmg spells.
Originally on test server it was able to do just that, but for some reason they upped the reqs again to stop that setup, I can't see anything wrong with a monk having a blessed heal/d/s and dmg boost and then having a holy eng halo for their offense, if you think that would be to powerful then you should test one out on test server and see for yourself, personally i know it is not that great but its enough to allow monks not only to have a little pvp "even thought they will die rather easy" and also be able to obtain a high enough combat rank for teaming up with pure monks and so on, and also be able to solo when they feel like it for rares and such.
anyway just my thoughts like i said, i was one of the people asking for monk nerfs all those many months ago, but i think the hammer has hit them enough and more than was needed now.
Um, i think they should get db/halo/bless shelter. But not bless heal. Bless heal is just too uber for any char that has offensive combat ability.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
You haven't stopped making silly ASSumptions have you?
:rolleyes:
well i made that ASSumption (nice spelling btw.), because i play a non-PAed APU, and i got neither bad damage nor low mana.
so much for UR silly ASSumptions
:rolleyes:
Shadow Dancer
30-01-04, 01:19
I guess our definitions of bad damage and/or mana are different. :rolleyes:
Yeah but it's mine that counts. Stop the squabbling. :p
N
Promethius
30-01-04, 01:52
Originally posted by YoDa-UK
Ok this is NOT a patch bashing thread, in fact these changes to the Hybirds we see now i remember talking about them ages when hybrids were to powerful "cryptocronic days", anyway what we see now is a good move in reducing the % hit on both sides, and also upping the spell reqs is a good move, but KK some people do still enjoy the hybrid, either in pvp "which is pointless now with them" or just for playing the game their own way, having a char that can attack and heal is something most enjoy, and should be viable.
Ok point of my post now, for those starting out and with DOY coming, a lot of new players will not know how bad its going to be to lvl a hybrid, im sure a lot of them will no doubt choose this type of char as it does sound a nice one to have, but there is a problem, with the reqs so high for holy eng halo and the heals balance, it means a LONG gap for the lvler's, which means of course a LONG time lvling with the crap spells at the much higher lvls.
The answer now is a few other spells added that are not as powerful as the next step like beam spells, but will allow lvler's the chance to lvl at a decent speed and still enjoy the game.
Of course we don't want everyone being a monk, or hybrids for that matter, but its there and a choice no one should be forced not to make, as it stands right now you can't have holy eng halo and blessed heal, both needing 120 in their own reqs "apu/ppu" so unless someone wants to stay with a basic TL 3 heal, they need to go for a lower attack spell like a normal eng halo, can anyone see people using that spell again the higher lvl mobs in the caves and such? what about combat ranks being effected by this? it means no more higher lvl teams coz they can't reach those spells, so in the end you got hybrids lvling alone, totally dependant on their own heals and buffs, so they have to be viable as a solo class, what we need now is a spell that is more powerful than a normal halo, but not as powerful as the holy version, and is reachable while still using a blessed heal.
After all, the ppu as the top spells now, and no one else can reach a blessed version of the spells other than a hybrid, so its them this should be aimed at.
Just my thoughts after i logged on to see my wifes hybrid now screwed, she is lomming to pure apu now, she likes to hunt mobs and such, she doesn't pvp, but she is still somewhat nerfed over it, im trying to work out a plan for her to use, but she doesn't feel using a normal eng halo against fire mobs in the canyon to be that effective, i know what she means.
What do others feel about this, be it your a monk or not, opinions?
Wat about blessed spells ?Energy halo ---> Blessed Energy halo ---> Holy energy halo ?
Sigma what's your damage percent in all rare apu modules (assuming apu for your sig) and what's your mana pool?
Numbers after this patch, some things have changed.
And of course without any buff.
-Jewish.
Was looking forward to the patch when i saw it.
Lomed to hybrid and its boring(mainly b/c asll the neuteal GRs seem to be camped)
Crap pool, bad buffs, low damage and can only use 2 spells till i hit 0 synaps.
Oh well..... might as well LOM back to PPU... what a time sink *sigh*.
Originally posted by Sleawer
Sigma what's your damage percent in all rare apu modules (assuming apu for your sig) and what's your mana pool?
Numbers after this patch, some things have changed.
And of course without any buff.
-Jewish.
gonna go and check, but i would be surprise if it changed much
edit - k, just checked.
303 psi prepatch
287 psi after patch
HL dmg 60x% prepatch
595% after patch
FA dmg prepatch dunno
after patch 579%
HAB after patch: Dmg 483 %, range 204m, freq 18/min
btw. i doubt melee 3 would've changed much ^^
i can live with those changes, dmg is still good as always
friken i had to lose 60 pool jsut so i could recap my FA and HL... i had 402 pool with capped FA and HL; now it was 373 when i logged with capped HL but 639 FA... now its 647 FA with 346 pool =(
tho i must say; as they took off the con neg, getting 10 extra hp was nice...
Well Sigma 595% damage is bearable, tho the main defence of your apu is the damage, but 287 mana pool is in no way good, not even decent... one antibuff and you can say goodbye to it.
To put it clear, the only way I would accept that low mana, and that mediocre damage would be wearing chips that compensate the dmg/mana loss with more defence and hp (i.e. resistor/moveon).
I dont want to critiquize your setup, if it works for you then go on, none should tell you how to play the game, but admit that it's a rather uncommon setup.
It worked for me when only tanks had PA (anyway they dont use it), and my apu had 264m range in FA/HL and 219 in Poison Beam (heh and 150 rof on HL, 125 on FA for a time)... now that everyone is on the top, the normality is that everyone specialyzes to the max potential.
As I have said in a previous post at the patch #195 discussion thread, these changes can be worked around... not so long ago we had to spec athletics to get decent runspeed, and we didnt have PA... but so did everyone.
I hope you get my point. You cant throw at Shadow Dancer the glorious magnificent of not using PA, because it simply is not realistic :p.
These changes in my opinion make the apu more and more reliant on his ppu counterpart, which is a shame because many people play apu's as mains and dont have a ppu in their ass 24/7, not even 1/7. This comming from a person that plays on one char servers, and I tell you that I can feel the pain from this side of the internet.
You know that I have been a monk for a big deal of time, and I tell you that I rather work around the -25 atl on the PA than not wearing it and having to deal with the new range, bad mana and 'ok' damage. I never agreed with the idea of having a class with the 'best' damage in the game, but it's what we have and no one should understimate it.
*searchs for the nerf HL threads in this forum*
-Sleawer
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