View Full Version : So, Im a LE user....
MjukisDjur
29-01-04, 10:29
why cannot I keep being that without being punished?
To quote Vetterox "Learn to defend yourself"... right
I gr:d to el farid last nite with my 35 something spy, had si and drugflash and this PE kills me (lets call him Natit) because he thinks its funny and I pop 4 imps and drop something (crappy in this case). With my 70 something spy I could probably have done something about it but he is on another server. There is always a bigger fish out there and you will be killed if you cannot stealth and ppu not freezes you before.
You should be able to insert the LE at any lvl in my opinion.
I and many others enjoy this game without pvp. Now even the developers tells us to ¤%# off.
Ok, the system is being used by red people that can run missions with the LE in. So, just prevent people with less sl than 10 from implanting the damn chip!
This change is not going to make the game any more fun except for the ones who enjoys others people missery and anger.
So now some smart guy say, dont pop you LE. Um, yea sure. And dont do any epics what so ever etc? Really smart solution. Ruin MY game experience even further. I have played everyday (yup, almost every day) since early January last year and I enjoy this game a lot. In fact, no game has cought me like this since I was a about 10 years old and played bards tale/wasteland etc on my c64. Devs, please make me stay...
yeah, LE is basically law enforcer.... if you have negative SL, means you're criminal... so how can a criminal be law abider ? PARADOX!!!!
well said. unfortunately Kk doesnt see it that way. It will suck for the person who wants to farm mc5 and not have to worry about some lame ass going in there and ganking him because the ganker cant come back later.
Well Said MjukisDjur
Edit: Deleted my post..
Dade Murphey
29-01-04, 10:45
Well said...and I entirely agree...seems like if you don't want Reds using the LE to do missions make it not work under +1 SL or something like that...I know it's a pvp based game...but, like I've said a lot before, not everyone is here for PvP and not everyone wants to always PvP...but hey...that's just me
I do sympathize with you guys but it has been a known fact stated countless times by the gms that this game revolved heavily around PvP. I think this is only adding more realism and fun to the game personally. I disagree with the need or want to pop your LE in and out. This takes away someone wanting to seek revenge on you for either killing them or being a criminal against others.
And if you want the epic item bad enough just buy it off of someone else, i had no problem getting any item that i wanted for a decent price. I feel that the risk takers should get some perks. But that is just me.
well all this means is that the OP war LE spies will be noobs now. doesnt really solve that issue.
How about this: There are many people like me who ENJOY pvp, and like killing people weather or not they want to fight... Im not joking, Im REALLY not joking, I would LOVE to go into the sims online, create a char armed with an m249 para machine gun, a backpack of ammo and grenades, and just go on a slaughter rampage, killing every damn teenager in sight cyber dating, buring down houses, and causing havoc. I would be screaming with laugher in real life as I did it... but I cant.
I would have LOVED to pk people in diablo 2 without having to declair hostility in town just so they can openb a portal and come to the safety of town... Why cant I just mow them down where they cant escape?
In EQ, you cant pvp, you actually will get banned if you pull some mobs over to someone and get them killed...
Theres tons of games where you cant pk... Why cant we pvpers/pkers have a game for us? A game where we can pk without huge penalties, safe zones, and les? There are plenty of people here now and still out there who want a pvp game, without carebear rules... This was much more hardcore pvp game a long time ago, and you carebears CANT deny that. LE was added, then restrictions were taken away, then SL was added, etc etc etc. This game has gotten more and more carebear... and now we the pvpers got something that might make the game better for us... the no le reimplant after 30 rule... let us have one for us ffs...
And no, I wont play quake or planetside, I like to level and design my chars to be their best, I dont wanna be the same solder as everyone else. And no, that doesnt mean being higher level, its about being better designed, which I am vs 99% of players due to dedication and hard work.
If you dont like getting pked..u have the le. You just cant do epics now... its called a penalty... posative, u are immortal, negative, you cant do epic or use 4 brain slots, its called balance. theres games where you cant be pked with no penalties out there for you... .. let us pvpers have neocron.
Q`alooaith
29-01-04, 11:45
Guy, if you don't want to PvP leave your LE in, it won't pop out after rank 30..
It just mean's you have to make your mind up by that time, you can alway's goto PvP later, but after rank 30 you can't back down..
A fair system I think, better than the once you take it out it can't go back in idea's that where being batted around a time ago..
VetteroX apparently you have never played Planetside.. because you level, distribute points.. pick you armor types and your weapon types. Very rarely did I ever meet someone in PLanetside with the exact same "setup" as my character had.. Planetside is a PvP MMORPG.. and so is Shadowbane... thats not the point.. the fact is that Neocron isn't what it was a year and half ago.. Neocron is not all about PvP anymore and Reakktor was making that apparent until recently.. Its the fact that not everyone is PvP crazy like you and want to kill everyone all day everyday.. some want to take a break, put there LE in and enjoy some Mob killing or RP.. All you seem to think about is "Why cant we PvPers have everything and forget about you LE user" you forgetting LE users have it the hardest in Neocron... So you have no right to ask for you PvPers to have "fun" because all I ever got from PvPers with my LE in was grief.. I could name countless people who have killed me with my LE in, Called me names, people who tried to bring me to there level.. I never did though.. I never take my LE out and I Never PvP but for hte occansional Roleplayer/PvP person the LE is a good option for them... This has completely ruined their chance at this.. so I can see more people leaving for such a stupid change.. Oh well right.. As long as you get to have your fun right??
Psyco Groupie
29-01-04, 11:52
just freakin' read the patchnotes ... >30 runners can use it ... just cant take it out and re-imp it ....
yawn
Vet - you know while I was on Saturn I actually came and fought with you and Maj. When someone started shooting Maj, I killed them - I was NEXT and so were they. You know I am not a carebear, but by the same token, NC is not just about PvP. There are tradeskillers in the game who do not wish to participate in PvP. In order to make a really good CST / RES you have to place almost all your points into that skill.
Now, say someone is trying to lvl so that they can change to full trade skills - someone comes along and PK's them. They had no intention to fight anyone else.
There should be a way to allow trade skillers to lvl without being ganked. Perhaps a way to leave the LE in and once it is taken out, it stays out - if cannot be poked back in again. This would stop peeps abusing it and popping it in and out as they like. Those that take it out are then basically saying "Hey, I don't mind fighting!"
Any ideas or thoughts? Maybe a PM to MJS :D
MjukisDjur
29-01-04, 11:54
Vetterox, I strongly believe that there are room for us all... :)
The LE playerbase is not that big so you dont have to worry about finding people to gank...
Q`alooaith
29-01-04, 12:02
Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
just freakin' read the patchnotes ... >30 runners can use it ... just cant take it out and re-imp it ....
yawn
Hell no one talked so much about this change when it was put into the game month's ago.. wonder why..
Oh yes..
Everyone, this was meant to be in the game, your not meant to be able to put your LE back in after rank 30 even now..
Even in MJS was to tell each and every person personaly that it only affect's people taking their LE's out, there'd still be people complaining that they want to keep their LE..
I do think a better solution would be as suggested that LE's can only be put in over a certain SL level. But i think that should be set at about 25 as this would show to be a more law abiding citizen.
Also maybe make it so only certain factions can wear an LE.
Because not all the factions are governed by Law, therefore the use of an 'Law Enforcer' seems kind of wrong.
Dade Murphey
29-01-04, 12:08
You know vet...CS has a little mod thing to it where it's like an RPG and you gain skills you can choose from and such...maybe you should check it out...it even has lvls...so there ya have it
[ edited for violation of the forum rules - flaming ]
I watched my freind play planetside for a while and i looked at the setups etc, but they are nowhere near as in depth as NC... its fun but its no diff for me persoanly then BF 1942... when i feel like team based pvp with no setups killing people in 1 second flat I load up bf 1942... I like this game for being able to create a powerful char and be a feared/hated criminal.. I know when I used to pk at TH (I miss that so badly it hurts...) and MB now, its not "oh theres a pker here, someone do something when you can" Its "fuck, strikers here again pking, we need some help to get rid of him" its totaly diffeent then planet side etc.
I still dont see the stories of these never ending ganking that people talk about... I sware to GOD im rarely ever pked while leveling... striker was pked I think once, maybe twice at mb by TG while leveling... and thats it... never pked outside j01. My apu who is now 100 base psi 87 base int wasnt pked once... hes been killed but it was becuase I pked someone while leveling and then someone else came for revenge. My spys not been attacked once.. hes almost 99 base dex and most of his levelings been in various swamp caves.
there are many waysto avoid being pked, hunt in a team, in out of the way spots, be protopham, even though i hate that :rolleyes: like a virtual le being pp. you can keep your le in till capped, THEN pull it and do the epic... wheres the problem? and yes a tradskilling spy can defend himself... you cn have like sf distance 3 ss pp/moveon and just be ready and aware while you hunt... far from helpless.
I really cant agree with theres "very few LE users" because if it was allowed I could list a lot of people who ive pked and next day, bang, les in... and im taking about /60 and up. I killed claned CM and FA a few times and bam... unclanned le a few days later... I see that as quitting... either train hard to be a good figter, or do what the CM's do and use numbers... everyons gotta have 1 buddy they can call to help em in a fight. From a pver/pkers point of view you dont know how frustrating it is to see a apu using hl in the distance, charge him, and find him using an LE... then you see a tank with CS, charge him... hes led... Im out in the wastes all day, trust me I see it a lot.
Originally posted by MjukisDjur
why cannot I keep being that without being punished?
..
There is a simple answer to that question. everyting must be balanced.
you have con and pro on the LE and i think it got alotta pro.
- you can level save up to a point where you can defend (or run)
- you can level @spots where other ppl of you faction are kos
- you can skill freely because you dont need to PvP
real cons are only:
- you can't do epics
- Monk support
other cons:
- one brainslot less (who cares you dont PvP)
I have to agree with this change..
Whether you're into PvP or not, this is a PvP game.. nobody wants to be pk'd while they're hunting or ganked while hacking a WB, but those of us who don't use an LE are cautious while we hunt, check it's all clear before going into a hackscreen for example..
Having an LE in takes away half the experience in my opinion, whatever the situation.. because you basically have nothing to worry about. Hopefully this new rule will detract more people from using LE and they'll actually make a realistic effort to avoid being pk'd/stand up to pk'ers instead of just choosing to cut PvP out completely from their game.
im not sure what the problem is here, if you dont want to PvP stick your LE in before the patch and you will be ok cos if you keep it in you can wear it after level 30.
Originally posted by ezza
im not sure what the problem is here, if you dont want to PvP stick your LE in before the patch and you will be ok cos if you keep it in you can wear it after level 30.
But they can't do epics I think is their gripe.. they can't have their cake and eat it..
I don't believe the LE was ever initially designed to be used throughout your entire gaming life, as an option to cut pvp out forever.. it was merely to use while you got to grips with the game and leveled to a point where you could have a chance to escape/fight.
Bear that in mind before you think KK are suddenly trying to force carebears out of the game.. there's nothing sudden about it :rolleyes:
EDIT : Ezza.. when you gonna get a sig you're finally happy with? :P
well for me the LE was always there just to protect the little guys at the begining of the game, remember it used to have big reqs on it to stop people using it high end, which is the way it should be.
now they have it without reqs but they they cant take it out when ever they want.
you want to do epics then enter the PvP world, if not stay in the safe world of LE chips.
and as for my sig, dunno, need to add some stuff to the current one then i think i will be happy(for a while anyway)
PvP (aka PKing, it seems, personally I define PK as dishonorable backstabbing like killing someone hacking or and PvP as a more fair fight between people) could be fun... unfortunately it requires mad sk33ltz and almost more importantly a good computer. For example my good old 600MHz celeron with GF 256 DDR can barely keep up 10 fps at wastelands with no mobs in sight and walking straight. Add a firemob group (few chasers spawning small reapers) and fps drops to 5. Turn around rapidly, it will almost freeze and fps is something like 1-2, if even that high (only drops for a moment though, or if you continue turning :P). If someone were to attack me in such situation, I'd be virtually defenseless.
What comes to LE thing, I don't care, usually about the first thing I do with my chars is to get rid of LE. Suppose I want to live dangerous then, though myself I don't really PvP anyone (okay, if I'm in the mood, I go and shoot at someone and usually after 5 seconds it's ME who is dead. Not very often though, and always guys who're enemies or negative SLs or something... I like the slightest 'roleplaying' feeling I can get outta this game ;)) and probably only way to score a PK frag would be (dishonorable) killing someone hacking or idling etc... :/
Originally posted by Kalpa
PvP (aka PKing, it seems, personally I define PK as dishonorable backstabbing like killing someone hacking or and PvP as a more fair fight between people) could be fun... unfortunately it requires mad sk33ltz and almost more importantly a good computer. For example my good old 600MHz celeron with GF 256 DDR can barely keep up 10 fps at wastelands with no mobs in sight and walking straight. Add a firemob group (few chasers spawning small reapers) and fps drops to 5. Turn around rapidly, it will almost freeze and fps is something like 1-2, if even that high (only drops for a moment though, or if you continue turning :P). If someone were to attack me in such situation, I'd be virtually defenseless.
What comes to LE thing, I don't care, usually about the first thing I do with my chars is to get rid of LE. Suppose I want to live dangerous then, though myself I don't really PvP anyone (okay, if I'm in the mood, I go and shoot at someone and usually after 5 seconds it's ME who is dead. Not very often though, and always guys who're enemies or negative SLs or something... I like the slightest 'roleplaying' feeling I can get outta this game ;)) and probably only way to score a PK frag would be (dishonorable) killing someone hacking or idling etc... :/ when i go pking or pvping i turn my settings down and i can get 50-60 FPS
dunno what your settings are on but F11 and slap them all to the left on the scale bar
Kalpa,
I hear ya.. p3 866mhz here, with a geforce mx 420, 256mb ram... gives you a hard time of it, but I figure I have to work that bit harder to compete..
Contrary to what some eliteists believe, it's not always about the winning, I lose about as much as I win in PvP, but I have fun regardless of the outcome.. i'm comfortable with the size of my penis, I don't have much to prove to myself.
I think alot of people just don't want to compete, pop their LE in, simply because they can't bear to lose. But again, they're missing out on half the experience. That's my opinion anyways.
What about if after Rank 30 you needed 100 Soulight to put your Law Enforcer back in?
*edit*
and 50+ sympathy with all factions. Plus it cost you 300k Plus you needed to see an NPC and do a small favour for him to get it done, then that NPC pokes it into you.
Reason for all that stuff in the edit: If people want to be Law Enforcer wearers and STILL do epic missions, they need another tradeoff. It should be a hell of a lot of work. HA! Free Invincibility to PvP? LMAO! Yeah right? It's gonna cost you m8. :lol:
Q`alooaith
29-01-04, 13:59
Originally posted by Radamez
I think alot of people just don't want to compete, pop their LE in, simply because they can't bear to lose. But again, they're missing out on half the experience. That's my opinion anyways.
No, some people don't want to fight no more, they are tired of the conflict..
Some good fun can be had mob hunting with other's, and enjoying going though the world of neocron at a relaxed pace, not powering though to the hardest spot's to get to cap so you can stand about and complain about there being nothing to do...
All my current char's have their LE's in.. noted they where rolled not long ago.. But there was a time when I didn't have LE's in any of my char's, and I was known to go on the odd PK spree to the point of having massivly negative SL..
People put their LE's back in because they come though a GR and get killed by a neutral who then tell's em to "put your LE back in n00b" and other not so nice things..
I'm all for PvP on hostile's, it's just at this time PKer's don't care.. If the penalty for killing allied and neutral was larger..
Greyhand's back.. drive my own tank again.. when I've saved a bit of cash and leveled up a bit..
i though someone had stolen the greyhand name?
well with the new rule at least we wont have to tell em to put there LE in cos they wont be able to:lol:
Originally posted by Q`alooaith
Some good fun can be had mob hunting with other's, and enjoying going though the world of neocron at a relaxed pace, not powering though to the hardest spot's to get to cap so you can stand about and complain about there being nothing to do...
But having the option to do that ruins the experience IMO, it should be a world you fear, and if you want to go somewhere dangerous, you have to have no choice but to risk death.. otherwise the atmosphere is gone..
Originally posted by ezza
when i go pking or pvping i turn my settings down and i can get 50-60 FPS
dunno what your settings are on but F11 and slap them all to the left on the scale bar
Lowest possible settings, expect for model detail (I think, can't be sure, it doesn't affect fps much anyway and makes people look thin if set to low) AND when hunting firemobs force fog distance off (major fps loss, but then again, I'll see much farther :P)
And fps 50-60... not possible with Neocron with my comp. In my apt when looking down a corner I get something like 40 or so... maybe I'll get exact numbers later today ;)
A nice example are op fights, I've been in two, one small, one big, and, uhh, both were pretty bad. In the small I was almost able to hit something, the big one, well... it just sucked ;)
Originally posted by msdong
There is a simple answer to that question. everyting must be balanced.
you have con and pro on the LE and i think it got alotta pro.
- you can level save up to a point where you can defend (or run)
- you can level @spots where other ppl of you faction are kos
- you can skill freely because you dont need to PvP
real cons are only:
- you can't do epics
- Monk support
other cons:
- one brainslot less (who cares you dont PvP) Also forgot the con of not being in clans and not sharing apartments. And DONT act like the brainslot isnt an issue. If PvPers think that a fourth brainslot is only needed for PvP, the lot of them is worse off than I first thought. :rolleyes:
Any good tradeskiller needs the fourth brain slot as well. Durrrrrr.
is that strych9 sniping at the intelligence of pkers i see:eek:
Q`alooaith
29-01-04, 14:14
Originally posted by ezza
i though someone had stolen the greyhand name?
well with the new rule at least we wont have to tell em to put there LE in cos they wont be able to:lol:
Naaa, some fella pinched Greyson though... and Grey... Greydog...
Greyhand though never got pinched.. might be cause I kept rolling char's with that name.. same as I keep rolling Q'alooaith 's people can't soil my repectivly bad and good name's if I'm using em..
Sok.... just wait for the non pvpers to quit.
Drop the numbers some more, then whats left can fight.
think it's about time there was a 1 char hardcore server, no multiple accs nothing just your 1 char so you actually have to rely on people for services instead of having em all at your disposal. Maybe then people might start protecting each other a bit more and the server numbers now are crap i vote merge, till then heh
No, that Stryhc9 picking on people that make stupid statements like you dont need a fourth brain slot if you dont PvP. :)
Dont worry Ezza, I will be out there roaming the countryside looking for the likes of you pretty soon. I will likely always lose, but perhaps some people will find it refreshing fighting players that want to fight. :)
Originally posted by LTA
Sok.... just wait for the non pvpers to quit.
Drop the numbers some more, then whats left can fight.Nothing is stopping those that WANT to fight from fighting each other RIGHT NOW.
think it's about time there was a 1 char hardcore server, no multiple accs nothing just your 1 char so you actually have to rely on people for services instead of having em all at your disposal. Maybe then people might start protecting each other a bit more and the server numbers now are crap i vote merge, till then heh I would love that as well. And no safe slot. Truly hardcore. Then lets see who the tough PKers REALLY are. :)
When i'm bored i gank n00bs, anyone red really. Hell, even a clannie if i'm reeeaaally bored. It's part of the game. No need to get your PANTIES IN A WAD over a GAME. LoL.
Summation: Pk for all. no reimplant > 30 = teh win. :angel:
/edit oops this is Artricia...forgot i was logged in my friend arthego's account :eek:
Any good tradeskiller needs the fourth brain slot as well. Durrrrrr.
Giving up +5 on a mainstat or two and a small amount of skill is compensated by the fact that your clientel can't stab you in the back.
Originally posted by Strych9
No, that Stryhc9 picking on people that make stupid statements like you dont need a fourth brain slot if you dont PvP. :)
Dont worry Ezza, I will be out there roaming the countryside looking for the likes of you pretty soon. I will likely always lose, but perhaps some people will find it refreshing fighting players that want to fight. :)
ok look forward to seeing you out and about then :)
you are a noobish ranked player right:confused: :D
I want the LE disabled in warzones. Also you shouldnt be abled to put it in with negative SL. Thats the way i want it.
Problem solved, all happy.
Well, except Vet....
Q`alooaith
29-01-04, 15:42
Tell you what..
Let's go totaly OOC.. and call the LE what it realy is..
PvP Flag, either your flagged as PvP or Not PvP.. (yes bad grammer, but who cares)
Now, PvP flag should not be turned on and off because you've changed zone, it should not be turned off because your AoE'ed some NPC's and your SL is shot to hell..
The LE is simply a PvP flag, nothing more, it should not be treated as a RP object, or subjected to RP rule's that don't make sence, it's purpose is to let people who don't want to PvP stay out of PvP fight's.
Originally posted by ezza
ok look forward to seeing you out and about then :)
you are a noobish ranked player right:confused: :D I have a CS/MAL using Tank right now (named Pikachoad) that will be my primary PvP guy, but he doesnt see any action cause I have been levelling my melee PE (Strangle, used for WB hunting exclusively) and my Spy (Strych9) and my PPU (Barbie).
Barbie will be a long term project, Strangle needs one more Str level til his Str is capped (which means for all practical purposes he is done) and S9 wont take too much longer. Then I can go back to my tank. :)
Dont worry, I will track you down out there ezza and let you beat up on me some. :)
Three things:
I hate this new LE rule as it removes freedom, but doesn't solve any of the LE related problems (just "toned" them down to level 30 max. in most cases).
Make sanctum spells work for LE users. Having LE in and running around with an LE'd PPU in the graves or swamp caves (or any other cave that is, too) can give this PPU a headache, especially if he has to watch over multiple LE runners.
All LE players can do is to explore and live from the "content" Reakktor offers them (and/or play tradeskiller for LE/non-LE players). Unfortunetaly one interesting aspect of the content, the epics, requires you to be LE-less. So this part of the game died away. (And I don't wanna discuss about why this is ok or not; in the end the epics are part of the content which is not accessible to LE users). Personally I don't like it, but if it is Reakktors choice, then so be it (doesn't make sense to me though).
As a non/not-so-PvP-focused player except for quitting this game the only other choice is to rip your LE out (and have one brainslot more for cool implants) and play turncoat all the time by choosing the most neutral/friendly faction and/or powerful faction for the current situation on the respective server. Many many PKers work after the red=dead rule, RPing is down the drain anyway, so nothing wrong in exploiting this wonderful F6-ganking-system to your own advantage (e.g. by choosing PP on Saturn, like VetX already said).
Anyway, lets get back to the game, and continue with gan.... err, PvPing, and watch all these poor people suffer. Fortunetaly the company my character is (theoretically) working for has a big fund for war-expenses, because being in constant war with other companies costs a hell lot of money. At least I got told that, but who cares? *runs off to rip away this guy who just got recreated in the gene replicator*
Devils Grace
29-01-04, 19:24
simple ffs
u dont like PvP keep ur LE in it wont drop after lvl 30 like someone said here.
why da fuck shouldnt u be afraid walking MC5 or any other area in a world with chaos and war:confused:
u should be very afraid, or u just want to put the LE in and loot other ppl waork:mad:
take and put the LE in and out, for what.... give me one good reason why should that hapend
u dont like PvP so why da hell u take it out in the 1st place, or u just want to take it out pk a bit and hwne someone owns u u puted back in kuz u suck.....:rolleyes: for fuck sake
they are biggers fish out there but everyone has to gr one day, and maybe one day u will catch him to when ur fish has grown.
u ppl just want to stay as u please
boring take out go fight
get killed, boring of being ganked = i suck, put LE back in and no one will boder me again...
no now that is over, now make a choice and live by it
u were killed, go after him, dont beahve like a chicken wating for someone to provide a solution to ur problem..........
fuck im really pissed to all of u that wants things done to easy their lives.............
I used the LE at first to get a feel for the game and how it works... starting out is really difficult and money is kinda scarce... but after I reached rank 30 or so and started doing the Very Hard missions I took my LE out... I am not going to drop anything that I can't replace pretty darn quickly (even my 3 slotted rifle, would take me a while but it wouldn't be hard for me to replace it).
I can understand why people would want to put in the LE and take a break from PvP, especially since they are doing away with the safe zones... gonna be more difficult to find a place to relax, and I can understand just wanting to hunt at times without being harassed... I didn't really see a problem with the LE being used at high levels, seemed like there was always PvP going on somewhere even with the people with LEs in.
I think what would be best to bring more people in to start playing so the game can survive would be best overall myself... allowing LE usage at any level would prolly be more condusive to that but *shrug* dunno...
Mr. Chainsaw
29-01-04, 20:32
<grabs his 20 foot pole> Oh dear, I'm actually going to wade into this one....
Okay, the biggest problems I see with Law Enforcers are simply these:
1. Exploiting LEs to spy in Outpost fights. Yes, I consider this exploiting, just as vile as someone attempting to do harm to someone with an LE in. I agree with the opinion that LEs should cease functioning in a warzone. The point of having a LE in is to avoid PvP correct? If so, then a person with a LE in has no business being in a warzone. We can call it a negative of using a LE.
2. Not everyone wants to PvP. I want to PvP, you want to PvP, but there really are people who don't enjoy it. They prefer to explore the city, hang out, and just enjoy themselves. A good fight is a rush, it's true, but it just doesn't work that way for everyone. A great deal of this game, however, is indeed designed around PvP. Why else would we have outposts or factions or anything else? For those that choose to leave the LE for good, more power to them. I don't understand your decision, I think you're missing out on a huge aspect of the game, but it is ultimately YOUR choice how to play, not some twit following you around screaming at you to take the LE out.
3. Some people get tired of PvP after awhile. Sometimes, they just want to play the game and relax without nervously watching their back. It's better that they have a way to play and relieve that tension then to have them get frustrated and quit the game for good.
4. Epics. Only the NEXT epic can be completed without pvp. I honestly don't see the point anymore. It's so hard to find runner of xx faction higher than xx rank compared to how easy it is to just auction off paying to kill somebody. I see it constantly, the epics do not help increase PvP with that mechanic. PUT AWAY THE FLAMETHROWERS I'M ABOUT TO STATE MY OPINION! I say remove that aspect of them, don't have killing runners a requirement. Why? If you're serious about PvP you'll have that LE out anyway. If you're not, it's not like you doing your epics is going to sway the tide of war. Make epic rewards no drop or something so they can't be sold to prevent LE people influencing PvP in any way. Then remove the runner killing aspects of these missions and replace them with something just as RP. Honestly, if someone has a LE in, what are they going to do with all that epic stuff? With the biotech and PP chips they'll have just 1 slot for other things. With the epic weapons they'll have a convenient gun that can always be repaired to full condition, but they can't run around pwning you with it because of the LE. They already get the NEXT vehicle without having to worry about killing anyone, and in their hands it's just a convenient hunting tool for their friends and a free ride for them. The Diamond Real Estate epic has NOTHING to do with PvP anyway. CA power armor? Come on, in PvP there's better stuff anyway, it's useful before you get the really good power armors for certain classes, it's cool to RP with, and it's fun to stand in plaza and say 'drop that weapon' occasionally :D .
That's all I got to say about that....oh and if you want to resort to a personal attack on me instead of intelligently debating the points I've made, then you've already lost the argument. Honestly, I WANT intelligent counter arguments, especially to my last point about epics.
MythosYuga
29-01-04, 22:40
I can sympathize with those who prefer playing Neocron with the LE chip installed. Why not make the LE chip usable only when your SL reaches a certain level. So if you prefer PvP play, it's more unlikely that you'll be able to use the LE. Also, the usability ceiling for the LE is a good idea but rank X/30 is a far too low, no? How does a player of such a low rank seek to defend himself from pk'ers who are far more likely to be ranks X/50+. By observation and frequency, most pk'ers I've seen are usually high ranking fighters, whom on once reaching some arbitrary "uber rank" go on power trips, annihilating all noobs in sight.
I'm all for PvP play, in fact, I think it's what makes MMORG as dynamically playable as they are... but the currect settings are needs to be tweeked.
As shown by many previous posters, there are many good reasons for a player to have an LE implanted.
The two main exploits of the LE seem to be by gankers (not PvP'rs) and OP war spying.
The current "fix" of the LE chip prevents the ganker exploit (post lvl 30 only btw), but does nothing for OP spying, as a lvl =/>30 anyone can spy as well as anyone of higher rank.
The reason people are upset is multiple:
1. Not everyone who plays the game reads these boards, thus not all knew about upcoming change/fix.
2. Everyone who uses LE chip has gotten used to the way the current system works, thus they see the change as a nerf to their playstyle. Regardless of whatever KK said they planned to do in the future about it. (refer to point #1)
3. The change doesn't "fix" all the exploits anyway.
Admittedly the game is PvP focused (not much else to do after a certain point, this game isn't exactly loaded with content for high end) but, since anyone can leave it in post lvl 30, the PvP'rs dont gain more targets anyway, since those who will use LE will use LE regardless.
It seems clear the biggest fixable exploit of the LE is the gankers using them to while they fix their -SL. That would have been fixed easily by a SL requirement on the chip. Not so hard if they could fix the lvl req I would imagine(could be wrong), and this thread would be dead already.
One other point which I feel is relative to this argument is this:
When you get ganked, meaning killed by another player when you had no chance to defend yourself (Ie, hackscreen, busy at gogo, player shooting you from outside local player list range) you never even know who the hell it was. This is the only MMORPG I have played where your killer/attacker is unidentified in the interface through text. (Ie, Lameass#1 shot you in the back for 150pts(!) of fire/energy damage!)
IMHO this is only an incentive for people to be assholes. I have LE chars, and I have non LE chars, and I even made a rifle spy just for PvP action. However, even though he's now base dex 92, he has yet to ever have a PvP fight. I have only ever been attacked/killed while I was currently busy fighting a mob over 80/80 or while hacking or using a gogo/gr screen. (I can't be the only one who ever had this happen in MC5 for instance)
So, if you wonder why more people don't want to join in the PvP "fun" sometimes, consider those facts. It's entirely frustrating to get ganked by lameass players, and not having an option to negate it for a night or two while you "chill" about getting screwed 10 times in a day... drives players away. Especially when you have no means of finding out who you should be visiting your retribution on.
And in case some folks haven't noticed, our player base is/has been steadily dwindling, and it's my opinion that changes of this type will only do more to reduce our already lowered #'s.
The gent who said the LE chip is a PvP flag/switch is correct. It has a cpl of penalties to balance the safety, maybe it needs a touch more, I don't know. But he's right to say that to try and treat it like some roleplay aspect of the game doesn't make a lot of sense with the current game structure.
There's my .02 - flame all ya like
:D
JackScratch
30-01-04, 06:26
I have to say, Vet is right, there are many ways to avoid being PKed. The best way is group vigilance against PKers and PKing. The community doesn't want it, the community should stop it. Stop trdeing with known PKers, hunt them down, grief them out of the damn game. Then no one will even need the damn LEs. Been saying this for damn near a year.
@Baraxil 110% agree.
I would think that a +25 soullight requirement to re-insert an LE would more than suffice.
They could also be TL 115 so you have to find a real resser/cstr/poker to get the thing inserted. This would also limit the ability to get it poked immediately as there are times when a TL 115 poker is not available.
Shatter242
30-01-04, 10:30
My $1.25
Is LE cheating? A bit.
Are RPK's who sole pourpose for playing is because they can't hang in a balanced FPS where player skill matters and not who has the best weapons a serious pain in the ass? Yes
Was there a decent sized group of peopel who dropped in LE's just to stand around in the middle of them and be obnoxious? You bet.
Point is this. You read this thread from a neutral pov and you have the PK's demanding teh ability to run around witha capped char and kill everything in sight because for them it's better than Viagara.
You have peopel who would like to play this game as more of an RPG (it is an MMORPG after all guys) where the entire world isn't a free for all. The PK's pay little heed to the zone their in, rather it's just kill kill kill.
Camping GR's for Synap kill. Ya that's real skill.
Ganking people hacking a WB. Very brave.
Chasing down 3/58 trade skillers with a capped Libby. Damn, tough guy.
The general claim is that an LE will take away that fun, making them cry. Boo Hoo. How much fun do you think the game is for anyone not capped or even in skill range to get ganked 20-30 a day when they're trying to level. Most the PK's liek to hang in real tough areas.. like cellers and aggies area. Ya, thats' a real challenge. Let's gank the noob.
Now. The one thing I havn't seen brought up about LE's is the belt drop. That's my #1 pet peeve and despite what the people who cry carebear might think, that's been the sole reason I've ran an LE. All other benefits are a bonus.
If KK wants to get rid of LE's, then get rid of belt drops. Plain and simple. The only other reasonable solution is to create more hunting grounds. Beter yet, eliminate teh Anarchy Zones, and make Hunting Grounds. Everyone is talking about balance, well, there's your balance.
You want to PK, go right a head, but regardless, there will be reprocussions. Choose your PK stratigically, make the murder worth it. Don't do the crime if you can't afford the time.
The problem with leaving a LE in forever is not only the slot loss, but you can't join a clan. Now, my trade skillers rely on the shared clan resources to conduct business. The penalties for using an LE are just as bad as the penalty for not having one.
And yes, I agree that LE scouts are really lame. Super lame. K-lame++. I can't really think of a solution other than some kind of barrier that prevents LE'd peopel from entering, but then again, how would trade skillers take advantage of an op bonus their faction fought for?
Bottom line, lose the belt drop, and you could take LE out of this game for all I care.
There. Problem solved.
A nice bonus would be no pack drop in a warzone, but I'm probably asking WAY too much now.
Shatter
Originally posted by IceStorm
Giving up +5 on a mainstat or two and a small amount of skill is compensated by the fact that your clientel can't stab you in the back.
and the possibility to rip off or exchange their rare parts without gettin shot in the back :)
PvM is possible without imps (exept maybe MC5)
hmm, the brainslot for Trader ? you cap const real fast and researchin is kind of easy to.
Originally posted by JackScratch
I have to say, Vet is right, there are many ways to avoid being PKed. The best way is group vigilance against PKers and PKing. The community doesn't want it, the community should stop it. Stop trdeing with known PKers, hunt them down, grief them out of the damn game. Then no one will even need the damn LEs. Been saying this for damn near a year.
Yeah right
The fact is : pre-patch LE users could do the epics. Now they can't. Why should they miss out on doing the few missions in the game that add any kind of RP value to the game?
To the people who say there should be a negative to the LE chip. Isn't there enough already?
To the people who say just buy the epics, well maybe some people would like to actually do the only missions that make you feel part of your faction.
If you keep the LE in from the beginning you're fine aren't you? As far as I knew it was only when you try to reimplant it that you can't. So if I level above 30 as long as I keep my LE in I'm fine, it's only if I purposely remove it that I'm screwed.
In which case, you can't expect to have the best of both worlds, you knew the patch was coming and should have stuck an LE in and kept it in... Not pop it in whenever you need t's bonuses (defense from attackers, helps you stop being ganked at MC5).
If I'm wrong, sorry for the post, but if I'm right you're wrong IMO, and should not be allowed to stick an LE in whenever you fancy some protection. That is just unfair, fighting when you want and protected when else you want, you have to make a choice and stick with it.
Steve
id just like to say something again about the ganking wb hunters or a tradeskiller or noob... if there were enough capped players running around in the wates to satisfy my blood lust, id never shoot shoot a noob or anything, but as is, I have to kill what I can find..... and hope they person I kill complains and gets caps to come... fights between me and 1 other capped guy in the wastes, no ppus etc is just more fun then op wars for me.
Originally posted by VetteroX
id just like to say something again about the ganking wb hunters or a tradeskiller or noob... if there were enough capped players running around in the wates to satisfy my blood lust, id never shoot shoot a noob or anything, but as is, I have to kill what I can find..... and hope they person I kill complains and gets caps to come... fights between me and 1 other capped guy in the wastes, no ppus etc is just more fun then op wars for me. We have gone over this. A lot of newbs dont have capped alts, and when most runners come to fight you, you run. So most people dont bother now. This has been said about you over and over. Just drop it Vett.
Why dont you hunt down ezza, enemy, Dave Insurgent, etc? They all like fighting.
You DO realize that if you changed your faction to one that is enemies with TG and BD you would have TONS of ready and willing targets right?
Originally posted by GT_Rince
[...]
There should be a way to allow trade skillers to lvl without being ganked. Perhaps a way to leave the LE in and once it is taken out, it stays out - if cannot be poked back in again. This would stop peeps abusing it and popping it in and out as they like. Those that take it out are then basically saying "Hey, I don't mind fighting!"
Any ideas or thoughts? Maybe a PM to MJS :D Well, if you stated the obvious, as to play out a bit of a satire here, sorry for me not getting your point... ;)
Else: that's exactly, what is stated in the patchnotes... no REimplanting after Skilllevel 30 ... it won't "pop out" at /30! :)
Just the inability to do epics is the result of this now, which is another penalty, that some (like me) don't like, while others almost cheer about it (as this will "lure" more prey to their beloved rPKs)...
Just my 2c, Wilco
Devils Grace
30-01-04, 15:11
:rolleyes:
what tha hell is the prob of being ganked when u are at gogo and hunting
its ur problem dont leave ur guard down, and always pay attention to possible enemies
its like being in a fucking war, and u suden stop shooting kuz u have to pick up the cell phone and u scream
"stop shooting im on the phone":confused:
fucked up ppl that dont understand that.....
for fuck sake........
Originally posted by Devils Grace
"stop shooting im on the phone"
:lol:
I think you summed it up pretty well there.
Anyone who thinks that a non capped runner can 'defend themselves' against a capped runner is deluded (before you even get to class balance)
You want shot of the LE - put in PvP rank limitations (like AO has) then you know that only people you have a hope in hell of defeating can kill you, you get the fear and you get the suspence and danger but you DONT GET the futility of knowing that that guy IS going to kill you and theres FUCK ALL you can do about it
You only engage if you really want a fight and youre prepared to suffer the consequences - not thats a realistic scenario
cue PvP whines about 'rank restrictions not fair' blah blah blah
rank restrictions not fair
might as well say it now:rolleyes:
Mr. Chainsaw
30-01-04, 18:11
Oh god I'm marching into the flamewar again....
Rank restrictions in this game are a bad idea. Bad, bad idea. I keep that LE in on new characters for a LONG time to avoid the senseless ganking. Right now, there are two big complaints I have with the current system:
1. Epic missions shouldn't be restricted to PvP. They are a roleplay experience, long drawn out affairs, and kinda fun. The NEXT epic isn't limited by PvP, the others shouldn't either. All people do anymore is auction for a runner to kill because it's hard to find one of the right faction and the right rank with no LE chip in that you can attack. LE runners aren't going to sway the tide of war or become super uber because they completed epics. How many people use epics in their "mega" pvp setups besides the Biotech and PP chips? Are you telling me that a LE user having NCPD armor is going to throw the whole balance of power out of whack? Bleh, let the LEs have their fun too, if they aren't in it for PvP then epic missions are the perfect thing for them...except for the pvp involved now.
2. LE abuse has not been stopped. What's to stop a clan from hiring LE users to go do their spying for them. Sure, you don't have people popping in the chip and spying now, but espcially on 4 character servers you will still have LE spies all over.
Shatter242
30-01-04, 20:43
Originally posted by VetteroX
id just like to say something again about the ganking wb hunters or a tradeskiller or noob... if there were enough capped players running around in the wates to satisfy my blood lust, id never shoot shoot a noob or anything, but as is, I have to kill what I can find..... and hope they person I kill complains and gets caps to come... fights between me and 1 other capped guy in the wastes, no ppus etc is just more fun then op wars for me.
You'd be a bigger bad ass laughing at people gray to you with a classic "You're not even worth the ammo."
And like Strych9 said, I have also seen you run or leave peopel alone who have higher stats that you, and wern't in your faction or an ally, unless you had a ppu, and they were alone.
So do everyone a favor, and leave the RP talk on the RP forums or in game. Talk all the bullshit in game, hell that's what it's for.
And for the record, I woudln't start anything with anyone thougher than me without PPU backup, but then I fully admit it.
Shatter242
30-01-04, 20:46
Originally posted by 5150
Anyone who thinks that a non capped runner can 'defend themselves' against a capped runner is deluded (before you even get to class balance)
You want shot of the LE - put in PvP rank limitations (like AO has) then you know that only people you have a hope in hell of defeating can kill you, you get the fear and you get the suspence and danger but you DONT GET the futility of knowing that that guy IS going to kill you and theres FUCK ALL you can do about it
You only engage if you really want a fight and youre prepared to suffer the consequences - not thats a realistic scenario
cue PvP whines about 'rank restrictions not fair' blah blah blah
WELL SAID
Adding that if it was implimented, that all restrictions go out the window in Warzones.
JackScratch
30-01-04, 21:26
There realy is no effective way to fix LEs, I hate changes in game mechanics anyway. We have our own little world here. Why are we waiting for the Devs to change it, hell why are we begging the devs to change it, we can do this one on our own. As for Random/Faction PKers, if there intentions were respectable, then there would be some sort of fight club where they would beat each other silly and leave everyone else alone. As there isn't I have no respect for them, they are scum and only care about winning unfairly, plain and simple.
Shatter242
31-01-04, 00:53
Originally posted by JackScratch
As for Random/Faction PKers, if there intentions were respectable, then there would be some sort of fight club where they would beat each other silly and leave everyone else alone.
Well, we have NeoFrag, which works really well. We have a good time testing out configs, wepons, resists and such. No SL, No fact loss. Kill somebody all you want. Own them, pwn them, whatever.
Unfortuanatly, it's under utilized and I'm waiting for the PK camp to yell "IT'S NOT AS FUN AS GR GANKING".
Like I said before. LE vaporizes at level 30 and remove belt drops from game and everyone will be happy.
'nuff said.
If the game is DESIGNED heavily around pvp then why would you complain when you're forced to take a taste of it when you otherwise wouldn't?
[ edited for violation of the forum rules - flaming ] like Vet said earlier, 90% of games out there have either NO pvp, or it's so boring/pointless it can't even be bothered with.
And no, DO NOT tell me to go play planetside or SB, I've been pking in games since 1997, and those mmorpgs came out far before eq ever did.
The whole point of pking is to kill somebody who's unaware/unconsenting and run off with 1000's of people screaming bloody murder. This was able to happen in games like meridian 59 and Ultima Online, however since then I have yet to see a mmorpg aside from Neocron that allows me to do this. A rare exception is Shadowbane when people level in public guilds, but nobody does anymore, if there's any people shown in them they're recruited/harassed by private guilds looking for a bigger zerg ball.
If the majority of people seem to be happy with more pvp-oriented changes being made to the game, then too bad, it's our game.
[ edited ]
holodoctor1
31-01-04, 05:51
I agree with this. TH and MB are not safe anymore, and as a "just above the limit" hacker/barter spy, i can no longer go there, or i will get pked, and being pked when you don't want isnt all that fun. If reakktor doesn't change this polocy soon, then i'm leaving Neocron, because basically half the game is gone. What about my TH appartement? abandoned. I am lvl 33 when this patch struck, and i had no clue that it was coming. At least let me put it in one more time reakktor, before pulling the plug!!!
Shatter242
31-01-04, 12:03
Originally posted by Twitch
If the game is DESIGNED heavily around pvp then why would you complain when you're forced to take a taste of it when you otherwise wouldn't?
That's the story now.
Originally it was a MMORPG that appealed the the majority of us. Now it's become a MMOPKG.
The majority btw isn't the 5 people on here yelling "YA YA FEED MY ADDICTION FOR BLOOD". Most people actually logged on, playing the game which honestly, is where I'd rather be right now.
Alas, I that's going to have to change because from looking at threads, it's obvious that kk is taking this sophmoric pandering as a general concensus. I'll be making sure to encourge the other 95% to make their opinions heard more frequently.
Otherwise, what's going to happen is all the RP's are going to have enough of this and move on to something like WoWC and leave all of you that have joined a PK Clan & Faction to standing around in the proverbial circlejerk all by yourselves, with KK bankrupt and forgotten about. There will be a bunch of BD capped chars and a handfull of 2/5 noobs with LE's.
There's your game.
Cheers M8
If the game is DESIGNED heavily around pvp
It's designed around factions and conflict. That's Player versus Player. It is not designed around Player Killing, which is what the most vocal seem to be clamoring for.
then why would you complain when you're forced to take a taste of it when you otherwise wouldn't?
Because since at least August 2001, if not before, there has been a switch in the game to "opt out" of direct Player versus Player conflict. I've built my character around this option. Why should it be taken away from me? I don't abuse the option...
And no, DO NOT tell me to go play planetside or SBYou're right. If all you want to do is kill other people, I suggest you play UT2K3, Q3A, or any other of a number of multiplayer games where killing is the primary objective. An MMOFPS is probably too involved for your playstyle at this point.
The whole point of pking is to kill somebody who's unaware/unconsenting and run off with 1000's of people screaming bloody murder.
And the game has room for a few people like that, not for hordes of them.
Devils Grace
31-01-04, 23:45
anyone pls tell me why kiling an enemy is lame, whatever is rank is ..................
why killing an enemy while he hunts or he is at gogo is lame......
LE doesnt come out at lvl 30, he can stay in forever, and by keeping him u wont be killed by an enemy (like it should be) (and like it is everywhere) ur an enemy ur dead.......... u could be taking a dump in the public restrooms and i would kill u anyways before u clean ur ass...............
damn u ppl
no one gives a fucking good reason why enemies shouldnt be kill everywhere, all they say " ohhh i was minding my own business and someone killed me" " no i want him banned or i want everyting a safe zone like in SWG where ppl has to ask my permission to fight" " of couse i always say no"
go to hell
one good reason, besides the one killing newbies is lame kuz they dont know how the game works
i bet most of newbies play CS online, so they know what a hell a enemy is, jesus fucking christ
holodoctor1
31-01-04, 23:51
Obviously you have no clue that this game is MORE than just combat
If i don't want to fight, then i shouldn't be able to, but also, people shouldn't be able to fight me!!!
What if i want to be a trader, or barter, or something, and i'm so low level, that i can't go anywhere but plaza and viarosso, and even the sewers sometimes. Your probably uber, so this doesn't affect you, but what about the low level players? Enemy or not, we just want to have fun, and not worry about getting killed ever 2 seconds, it's just not fun!
You should at LEAST have the option to not participate in pvp.
Originally posted by holodoctor1
You should at LEAST have the option to not participate in pvp.
No, you shouldn't.
holodoctor1
01-02-04, 00:00
Whatever. Your not a noob that get's pked 10 times a day, so you wouldn't understand.
Q`alooaith
01-02-04, 00:02
Originally posted by Radamez
No, you shouldn't.
But you do.. The LE keep's you safe from PvP combat..
Now if you take it out you are consenting to fight other player's no matter their level..
Originally posted by holodoctor1
Whatever. Your not a noob that get's pked 10 times a day, so you wouldn't understand.
No? I never had to level a character from 0/2?
Trust me i've had my fair share of whippings from behind while i've been leveling, but it's something I always chose to live with, because after all I'm supposed to be living in a harsh,brutal environment where I should expect to get ganked round every corner.. not to skip around in the hills like a bunch of girls and never have to worry about squat..
Band together with friends, defend yourselves, hire protection at least.. but don't hide behind a damn LE.
Q`alooaith
01-02-04, 00:16
What's wrong with skipping in the hill's?!?
Lol.. Something strikes me as amusing here.
People here think they have it difficult with PvP, you should have tried UO in the old days, where there was only Felucca, (full PvP everywhere except towns).
You had Blue chars, and Red chars (innocents and murderers), wasn't a perfect system but the fact was that although you were protected in towns, anywhere else, outlands, dungeons whatever, you could be attacked and killed.
Even with all of that, the game was (and is afaik), massively popular, and no it wasn't all PvP guys ganking and such. Yes there was a fair bit of that, but there was also the other amount of people playing peacefully.
Anyway, in NC it's cakewalk. I like the idea of no LE reimplant above level 30, because by then you should know the game well enough with or without LE. And what's the big deal with being killed by an enemy faction guy, or even PKed? You only lose one item, and that's if they manage to hack the belt! Referring back to UO, if you die, everything's up for grabs, money, armour, weapons, everything. You don't even have money to LOSE in Neocron when you die, since it's all electronic. (Don't know what happened to cash cubes, I assume it got taken out)
So dying isn't really a big deal, yeah you get 50% or whatever SI, but it goes away eventually.
About the only thing I find stupid is camping GR spots and ganking people who come through, knowing they will be unable to attack back. But in ANY MMORPG, you will get things like that. It's just a risk you take GR'ing into unsafe areas. Hell, the menu even tells you it's unsafe. So it's your choice if you go there without LE in.
Sure, it's not a perfect system, but it could be a LOT worse.
No LE reimplant after 30 = Fair enough.
Doesn't bother me in the slightest, since if I want to stay LE, nothing is stopping me from doing so.
Not flaming, just stating what I think, so intelligent comments only please. If you want to whine in your answer, just don't. :)
P.S. As they say, alls fair in love and war, and really, NC is based on war :)
Psycho Killa
01-02-04, 03:05
I understand not wanting to be ganked while leveling then keep your le in.
Now if you just want to pop your le in to enjoy some peace and quiet in farming mc5 tough shit. This is a dark post apocolyptic world where everyone is fighting for there survival. Survival of the fittest... if your not strong enough by yourself theres also strength in numbers. If I want to keep my enemy from getting a rare chip that will improve his combat ability against me then so be it all is fair in love and war.
Devils Grace
01-02-04, 05:14
Originally posted by holodoctor1
Obviously you have no clue that this game is MORE than just combat
If i don't want to fight, then i shouldn't be able to, but also, people shouldn't be able to fight me!!!
What if i want to be a trader, or barter, or something, and i'm so low level, that i can't go anywhere but plaza and viarosso, and even the sewers sometimes. Your probably uber, so this doesn't affect you, but what about the low level players? Enemy or not, we just want to have fun, and not worry about getting killed ever 2 seconds, it's just not fun!
You should at LEAST have the option to not participate in pvp.
U have that option ===========LE
LE
LE
LE
LE
keep it in
if u dont want to participate in PvP why u even discussion this
if u dont like PvP keep it in, it should be no problem
but ur thinking " ahh but i want to be in a clan and bla bla bla shit" so u will partyicipate in all expects in the game, and one of them are wars betwen factions and clans
u Cant HAVE BOTH WORLDS complaining of the other u dont like, yet somehow u dont use game mechanics that actually gives u what u want,,,,
or u dont want it.
there i say u dont have a clue what u talking about
you do have the option to pvp or not
dont want to? www.everquest.com
Originally posted by g0rt
you do have the option to pvp or not
dont want to? www.everquest.com
[ edited for violation of the forum rules - flaming ]
Psycho Killa
01-02-04, 10:06
How is he being selfish.
Hes simply speaking the truth.
If you want to level in peace and participate at pvp at the same time then tough luck this isnt the game for you.
Q`alooaith
01-02-04, 11:14
The way he stated it is saying..
You can PvP or not..
If you want to PvP, play necron
If you don't want to PvP, don't play neocron...
But that's reading between the lines taking what's left out as meaning as much as what is left in..
Shatter242
01-02-04, 11:26
Originally posted by Devils Grace
anyone pls tell me why kiling an enemy is lame, whatever is rank is ..................
Simple
It's called open warfare. Just because a Faction is enemy does not mean KOS. RED IS DEAD is not warfare. Its' straight up murder. It's why I suggested that anarchy zones are reclassified as hunting grounds. YOu are free to murder, but there are reprocussions. IT's caled balance. SOmething the PK camp likes to use as a battle cry against LE's, but thats' as lng as they suffer no penalty for their actions.
Enemy means no trade, no negotiations. There's tension, but unless declared, not open warfare. When was the last time yor clan declared open warfare in the clan admin section of neoterm? When was the last time there was any RP or reason for the killing?
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
How is he being selfish.
Hes simply speaking the truth.
If you want to level in peace and participate at pvp at the same time then tough luck this isnt the game for you.
nobody is asking for that. I agree that popping your LE in and out should not be allowed. But to remove the ability to do the epics isn't fair.
Unfortunately, life simply isn't fair. And (going out on a limb here) I'm assuming there are quite a lot more non LE players, than LE players.
Unless you play a single char server, maybe leveling a char till he is viable to do the Epic in question, pop his LE out, do the Epic, give the reward to your LE character and so on and so forth.
:)
And please play nice here, and ingame! :D
how about we end this topic its fairly simple you dont want to fight/ be pk'd STICK YOUR LE IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ONOZ I GOT PK'D IM GONNA WHINE ON DA FORUM ABOUT THEM EVIL N00BI3 PKERS!!!!
saves time and effort if you keep your LE in you want to enter the real neocron take it out and be prepared to fight, if not STFU
JackScratch
01-02-04, 19:26
Well there it is, what I hate about the Random/Faction PKers, and why they call me a carebear. Funny part, they don't realise what I say would help them, they can't grasp that, and won't. No one is saying you can't kill, never have, never will. No one is saying take PvP out of the game. Most of the people who hate you, aren't against PvP. They are against you. And what is this horrible injustace they seek to bring upon you? You have to actualy think about what you are doing. I mean, that is what we are talking about here. Instead of wandering the wastes (and Pepper Park) killing indiscriminantly, you are being asked to only kill those you have developed a relationship with or against. That's it. Oh, there would be the don't kill the easy prey, as well, I think that is the one that offends you so. But the fact is, the only thing being asked, demanded of you is thought. And it would seem that is just entirely too much. Well, let me tell you something, there is plenty of room for everyone in this game, a place for each of us to enjoy the aspect, or aspects we enjoy, but that means working together, being conciderate of those who don't play the game the way you do. Now clearly you were all raised in the wilderness, and were never taught this concept before, but it would serve you well to learn it now. Not just in this game, but in your little pathetic lives as well. You don't have to be nice, but you do have to be considerate.
Devils Grace
02-02-04, 04:18
Originally posted by Shatter242
Simple
It's called open warfare. Just because a Faction is enemy does not mean KOS. RED IS DEAD is not warfare. Its' straight up murder. It's why I suggested that anarchy zones are reclassified as hunting grounds. YOu are free to murder, but there are reprocussions. IT's caled balance. SOmething the PK camp likes to use as a battle cry against LE's, but thats' as lng as they suffer no penalty for their actions.
Enemy means no trade, no negotiations. There's tension, but unless declared, not open warfare. When was the last time yor clan declared open warfare in the clan admin section of neoterm? When was the last time there was any RP or reason for the killing?
so if im at op and i chase enemy to an narchy zone i will loose a bunch of SL
get out of this game
ppl have to decid what they want, not be in the midle to satisfy their needs..........
as i said u cant have both worlds
and jack, the min u choosing a faction diferent then mine ur making a statement, kill or die
or KEEP THE LE IN.......
and yes i a murder or whataver u want to call it, ur enemy ur goin down
and thats roleplay acording to the game mechanics
and u can look everywhere in real life and u will see that its the same.........
u dont want to fight, keep ur LE in...............FUCKING SIMPLE
im goin to agree only on sometin, and its like, im yet to see whats is like, but maybe, maybe epics should be alowed to them..........maybe
im not goin to spare anyone just kuz they are huntin or at the gogo or they just dont like PvP.......
You know what carebears? Do what you want...
Make the SL system so fucking tight that the average pker can hardly kill 2 people without going red.
I dont even care anymore, im sick and tired of it ive been fighting against carebears since novemeber '02.
All I ask is for a clan war system..if i cant rpk then i wanna be able to war the ENTIRE server worth of clans, so I can kill ANYONE clanned, anywhere, anytime....
Just like order/chaos in uo....omg so much fun.
Mr. Chainsaw
02-02-04, 04:41
I don't understand this whole anti RPK thing. When I'm in game, I roleplay almost constantly, unless I have an overwhelming urge to just screw around.
Newb ganking, while not exactly the most challenging thing in the world, is also 100% avoidable. Leave the LE in. Even though I love fighting, I'm not about to pop that thing out in a new character. It's my anti-ganking chip, let's me level in peace until I can hit the higher level game and really start having fun. Unfortunately, even after it's out I don't stand much chance against a capped character, but if whoever attacked me is silly enough to still be there by the time the strike team of allied guildmembers arrives, they will probably die horribly :)
As for RPKilling, look, I'm not an angry person who kills others to compensate for his pathetic sex life, I consider myself at least a reasonable person, but I really don't know what the problem is. Why is it rude for a Tsunami to blow away a black dragon if he gets the chance? Because he didn't ask first? That's not the way it works. I pull the trigger as soon as I feel threatened. If I see a runner approach from a hostile faction near my level, I attack because I'm paranoid and figure they'll do it to me. If I see a hostile runner significantly more powerful, I tend to drop what I'm doing and get the hell out of there. If I see a significantly weaker one, I shall at the very least eye them dubiously.
I don't see how any of this is 'rude.' If someone DMs me after I shoot them and asks why, I reply in character. I don't send an email to each person I kill telling them I pwned them and giving them links to my personal website in which I display screenshots of my character sexing his dogtag collection. If you catch me in a safezone hanging out and joking around, I don't care if you've shot me 20 times or I've killed you 20 times, it doesn't matter.
It's just a game to me, it's not rude because that's how the game is played. I don't ask people if I can play a wild draw-4 card when I play Uno, I just do it. What's the big deal?
if i cant rpk then i wanna be able to war the ENTIRE server worth of clans,
In order to "rpk" you have to have a motive for why you're killing the person. Hostile faction could be considered a motive, but based on the second part of your statement, "the ENTIRE server", it seems all you're interested in is killing people for your own enjoyment. This would make you a homocidal maniac, not an "rpk" player.
If all you want to do is kill, kill, kill, then you should go play one of the many First Person Shooter multiplayer games out there which have a Death Match mode OR you should spend your time in NC inside NeoFrag. NC is about conflict, not wholesale slaughter of everyone (other than the beloved PPU you probably have glued to your ass).
>You should be able to insert the LE at any lvl in my opinion.
>I and many others enjoy this game without pvp. Now even the
>developers tells us to ¤%# off.
agreed
>Ok, the system is being used by red people that can run
>missions with the LE in. So, just prevent people with less sl than
>10 from implanting the damn chip!
dang, that's a pretty elegant solution - well done
What's hilarious is I don't see any of these fucking carebears roleplaying in or outside of the game. Show me screenshots of you going "THE CITY OF NEOCRON WILL CARRY REZA'S WILL THROUGHOUT THE LAND YOU LOWLY BLACK DRAGON THUG!!!"
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
take a look around, even the non pvp people are still people spamming "######LEVEL 300 CONSTRUCTOR AVAILABLE ONLY FOR FACTORY JOBS PLZ DM ME ALSO LOOKING FOR THIS AND THAT PART AND HIGH TECH FRAME OF BLAHBLAHBLAH AND TAKING OFFERS ON LAALALLA####"
Again if you're looking for a futuristic rpg that has fuck all for pvp www.anarchyonline.com
or everquest, whatever
and like i said, q3a or ut2k3 aren't games that you can tell me to fuck off and play, as i said earlier the whole point of pking is taking somebody out that isn't expecting it and having all their friends chasing after you screaming vengeance, you dont do that in games where it's EXPECTED for you to kill them
JackScratch
02-02-04, 09:09
Well, looks like my posts have brought the usual hostility from people I wasn't realy talking to. If you can't be persuaded to not be an ass (random/faction PK) then rest soundly assured I'm not interested in anything you have to say, none of it. As for Carebears, I am one, it is a stupid inacurate name for what I am, but I have been labeled. As such, I feel it completely apropriot to from this point forward refer to all who disagree with anti Random/Faction PKers as "PussyCowards" from now on when refering to any individual who has stated a position against any Carebear concepts, rather than say Random/Faction PKer, I will simply say "PussyCoward" I would normaly deam this to be flameing, however since the precident has clearly beeen set, but not so much as a hint that use of the term carebear as an insult, then one can clearly conclude that use of the title "PussyCoward" is completely apropriot on these forums. I'm not asking the game to be changed, I'm not asking pussycowards for a solution to a problem. I am pointing out that those who find the behavior of the pussycowards inapropriot have recourse. If you disagree with general pussycowardly behavior, then do not do business with pussycowards, do not associate with pussycowards, hunt pussycowards down in mass. Make it unpleasent to be a pussycoward.
you dont do that in games where it's EXPECTED for you to kill them
On servers as "loaded" as NC's, it will take very little time for people to figure out who in their people box is killing them consistently and who isn't, so your "expectation" argument is rather weak. After a short period of time people will just know to leave or get backup if you appear outside a safezone. Unless you're going to be constantly re-rolling, the surprise factor won't last very long.
Your fun is at the expense of server politics and everyone else's fun. There is room in NC for a few people like that, but not an entire server worth. If EVERYONE resorts to PKing, then your "expectation" argument completely falls apart and you might as well just leave NC if that's what you're looking for.
The Jail is in. If you want to be an asshole, the Jail is your refuge. No positive-soullight people can come into the Jail to kill you since the guards will kill them. You now have your one area to hide from the rest of the server's population. Enjoy.
MjukisDjur
02-02-04, 10:07
People, dont give me that crap that the game is created for pvp. Its not.
And Devils grace, you are completely wrong. I dont want to keep the WHOLE cookie and eat it ffs. No one has said that they want LE clans.
I just want the option to level in peace and move around without some dick shooting me in the back and say some shit about "faction enemy" while sending me to p1 for 4 pokes. It might sound boring but I solo a lot and hunt mobs and techparts. Not everyone want to be a l33t pk and do op wars. However, I do my share of teamplay/pk as well. Its called multicharacter servers. But sometimes some of us just want to be on our own without 3 buddies keeping ones back. Seems like its pretty damn hard to understand that for some. But then again, its my own fault that I move around on maps that my faction does not own.
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Well almost all things have been said so I'd probably end up duping something.
However I think the LE changes are good and as a simple recap I think the following is in order:
You can't eat the cake and still have it.
Originally posted by JackScratch
Well, looks like my posts have brought the usual hostility from people I wasn't realy talking to. If you can't be persuaded to not be an ass (random/faction PK) then rest soundly assured I'm not interested in anything you have to say, none of it. As for Carebears, I am one, it is a stupid inacurate name for what I am, but I have been labeled. As such, I feel it completely apropriot to from this point forward refer to all who disagree with anti Random/Faction PKers as "PussyCowards" from now on when refering to any individual who has stated a position against any Carebear concepts, rather than say Random/Faction PKer, I will simply say "PussyCoward" I would normaly deam this to be flameing, however since the precident has clearly beeen set, but not so much as a hint that use of the term carebear as an insult, then one can clearly conclude that use of the title "PussyCoward" is completely apropriot on these forums. I'm not asking the game to be changed, I'm not asking pussycowards for a solution to a problem. I am pointing out that those who find the behavior of the pussycowards inapropriot have recourse. If you disagree with general pussycowardly behavior, then do not do business with pussycowards, do not associate with pussycowards, hunt pussycowards down in mass. Make it unpleasent to be a pussycoward.
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oh btw safezones are being taken out so that means even more carebear pking waflz!!!!!!!!!!!1!
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i wanna be able to kill ANYONE I DONT LIKE, is that worded better for you? if i don't like them, i wanna kill them. i don't wanna lose soullight for it. my whole clan works like this, k?
so get the clan wars working so my clan can go to war with every crahn sect clan, protopharm clan, CM-hugging TT clan and biotech clan that fucking ATTACKS US.
sick and tired of losing SL after I get attacked. has kk never heard of an AGRESSOR? if someone ATTACKS ME FIRST, he should be OPEN GAME for me...i shouldn't lose SHIT if i attack him. hes the aggressor, so hes free game for me. thats how shit should work. none of this fucking shit where a biotech walks up to me in pepper park, attacks me, i fight back and kill him, and lose fucking sl.... most fucking WANKER anti-pk system in any game, ever
this shit needs to be changed.
Originally posted by MjukisDjur
I just want the option to level in peace and move around without some dick shooting me in the back and say some shit about "faction enemy" while sending me to p1 for 4 pokes. It might sound boring but I solo a lot and hunt mobs and techparts. Not everyone want to be a l33t pk and do op wars. However, I do my share of teamplay/pk as well. Its called multicharacter servers. But sometimes some of us just want to be on our own without 3 buddies keeping ones back. Seems like its pretty damn hard to understand that for some. But then again, its my own fault that I move around on maps that my faction does not own
hey guess what us big bad pks had to level on our own and get ganked by other pks as well, but i don't see us complaining. as for your "leave me alone in peace" whining i'll tell you that you're playing the wrong game. there's been multiple posts by the guy who created the game where he's basically told guys like you to go play something else.
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MjukisDjur
02-02-04, 10:25
im not a carebear [ edited for violation of the forum rules - flaming ]... I just want the option for one of my nerfed to death chars. If I wanted the LE to have clan support, buffs from non le people etc that would be carebearish... and I dont.
pffft what are you talking about twitch this game is so fucked up the carebear ass no one ever gets PK'd while levelign anymore, with shit like huntzones. what a joke, chaos caves and mc5...the "toughest" fighting areas in the game for leveling and collecting items....is a hunting spot for noobs? [ edited for violation of the forum rules - flaming ]
what these [ edited ] dont understand is that MINDLESS NPC KILLING WITHOUT THE SLIGHTEST CHANCE OF A PK COMING UP AND SMOKING YOU GETS FUCKING BORING FUCKING FAST.
figure it out. all the noobs with thier leaving threads every 2 weeks are a bunch of fucking CAREBEARS and LE NOOBS that are quitting because they are bored off thier ass of not having a SINGLE challange. leveling should be a challange. when you're leveling you should ALWAYS have to watch your back incase of a PK coming for you. otherwise the game gets boring, and fast.
seriously.
Originally posted by g0rt
sick and tired of losing SL after I get attacked. has kk never heard of an AGRESSOR? if someone ATTACKS ME FIRST, he should be OPEN GAME for me...i shouldn't lose SHIT if i attack him. hes the aggressor, so hes free game for me. thats how shit should work.
Couting out the swear words, amen :)
Originally posted by g0rt
pffft what are you talking about twitch this game is so fucked up the carebear ass no one ever gets PK'd while levelign anymore, with shit like huntzones. what a joke, chaos caves and mc5...the "toughest" fighting areas in the game for leveling and collecting items....is a hunting spot for noobs? [ edited ]
what these [ edited ] dont understand is that MINDLESS NPC KILLING WITHOUT THE SLIGHTEST CHANCE OF A PK COMING UP AND SMOKING YOU GETS FUCKING BORING FUCKING FAST.
figure it out. all the noobs with thier leaving threads every 2 weeks are a bunch of fucking CAREBEARS and LE NOOBS that are quitting because they are bored off thier ass of not having a SINGLE challange. leveling should be a challange. when you're leveling you should ALWAYS have to watch your back incase of a PK coming for you. otherwise the game gets boring, and fast.
seriously.
dude what are you talking about don't you find it fun when you kill the npcs that have piss poor AI like every other mmorpg and the only dialogue they have is the just as piss poor english sentences like "NO TRESPASS FOR YOU HERE, ENTER THE HQ AND YOU GET FLATLINED" :p
/Nid's edit - I've heard worse on these forums - I'd say it was realistic.
Originally posted by Twitch
dude what are you talking about don't you find it fun when you kill the npcs that have piss poor AI like every other mmorpg and the only dialogue they have is the just as piss poor english sentences like "NO TRESPASS FOR YOU HERE, ENTER THE HQ AND YOU GET FLATLINED" :p
yah i mean thats really something that can keep me entertained for more then 5 minutes!
maybe
i mean whats the point of fighting players, who all react differently and fight differently from one another, and who actually get ANGRY when they lose, proving that you actually ACCOMPLISHED something by killing them? pfft who needs that lets just kill gimped 120/120 mobs like grim chasers that cant even shoot you if theres a mountain beside them and dodge your bullets at an ass whooping 0.00009km/h! GOOD TIMES
i wanna be able to kill ANYONE I DONT LIKE, is that worded better for you? if i don't like them, i wanna kill them. i don't wanna lose soullight for it. my whole clan works like this, k?Why do you think you should be able to kill "someone you don't like" in a neutral or allied faction without losing soul light? I don't know if you've read the box, but NC is a virtual world, not a twisted disneyland for homocidal maniacs. There are consequences for your actions in this world, one of which being a loss of soul light if you whack someone who is not your enemy.
The Jail's in. You have a place to hide from positive soul light bounty hunters if need be, in addition to your apartment(s). What's the problem?
If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen...
no one ever gets PK'd while levelign anymore, with shit like huntzonesHuntzones are inside NC. Warzones are outside NC and where the majority of top end (at least my top end) leveling goes on. Someone attempts to PK me at least once a month while I'm leveling, and usually empties a clip or two into me before realizing I have an LE.
what these [ edited ]dont understand is that MINDLESS NPC KILLING WITHOUT THE SLIGHTEST CHANCE OF A PK COMING UP AND SMOKING YOU GETS FUCKING BORING FUCKING FAST.It does? I've been playing since August 2001. I'm not bored yet. My LE's been in the whole time minus a few brief removals for administrative reasons.
eveling should be a challange. when you're leveling you should ALWAYS have to watch your back incase of a PK coming for you.Warbots spawning on my head is enough of a problem, thanks.
Originally posted by IceStorm
It does? I've been playing since August 2001. I'm not bored yet. My LE's been in the whole time minus a few brief removals for administrative reasons.
Warbots spawning on my head is enough of a problem, thanks.
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all of the shit you're talking about is practically single player unless there's somebody else who can stand killing the same boring repetitive predictable AI over and over again with you.
why in the bloody blue fuck would you pay a monthly fee to kill boring retarded AI over and over again?
like i cant imagine going COOL I GOT A WICKED CHAR SETUP AND ALL THIS GOOD EQUIPMENT NOW IM GOING TO REALLY ROCK THOSE BORING WARBOTS THAT CAN'T HIT ME BESIDE MOUNTAINS!!!
:rolleyes:
[ edited ]
Because I do everything but poke and barter on one character, my life is boring?
all of the shit you're talking about is practically single player unless there's somebody else who can stand killing the same boring repetitive predictable AI over and over again with you.
It's single-player right up to the point someone wants a part/implant/rare I have, wants a mutli-slot weapon, wants some parts IDed, wants a lift, or wants something from a place they can't travel...
why in the bloody blue fuck would you pay a monthly fee to kill boring retarded AI over and over again?
Maybe because that's only part of what I do? Maybe because I pay for NC in 6 month lumps, meaning it's the same as buying two console games a year for each account...
like i cant imagine going COOL I GOT A WICKED CHAR SETUP AND ALL THIS GOOD EQUIPMENT NOW IM GOING TO REALLY ROCK THOSE BORING WARBOTS THAT CAN'T HIT ME BESIDE MOUNTAINS!!!
If that was all I did, I suppose I would be somewhat bored. Good thing it's not.
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most "top leveling" goes on in warzones? haha yeah maybe if you're a stupid noob. if you have a brain in your head you level in caves, aka "noobie huntzones".
so icestorm, according to you, if someone from an allied faction ATTACKS ME, and I kill him in self defence, i should reap the consequences with a SL hit? :rolleyes: stupidest carebear crap ive ever heard.
anyway whatever...as i said earlier i dont even care anymore... if [ edited - flaming ] you gotta put in a LE and fight WBs all day, go ahead and do it.... DO NOT TAKE YOUR LE OUT ANYMORE, its just that simple... just don't come on teh board and try to spoil the game for the rest of us
Originally posted by g0rt
[ edited ]
most "top leveling" goes on in warzones? haha yeah maybe if you're a stupid noob. if you have a brain in your head you level in caves, aka "noobie huntzones".
so icestorm, according to you, if someone from an allied faction ATTACKS ME, and I kill him in self defence, i should reap the consequences with a SL hit? :rolleyes: stupidest carebear crap ive ever heard.
anyway whatever...as i said earlier i dont even care anymore... if [ edited ] you gotta put in a LE and fight WBs all day, go ahead and do it.... DO NOT TAKE YOUR LE OUT ANYMORE, its just that simple... just don't come on teh board and try to spoil the game for the rest of us
Oh agreed agreed :)
The ridiculous penalty that if someone from allied faction attacks YOU and then you kill them and take a SL hit is utterly retarded. If some bitch who I'm meant to be allied/neutral with attacks me, and I kill them then fuck yes, I expect to be able to hand their ass to them WITHOUT penalty!
I could care a less about faction PvPing (NOT PKing), because ummmmmm if you are an enemy to the faction attacking you, then sorry, but you are FAIR GAME to that person. Sure attacking newbi's is pointless, but when you're a newbi, KEEP THE LE IN until you can fight back effectively! :)
Surely this isn't that hard to comprehend :)
Summing up: Killing someone in an enemy faction without LE = Fair enough.
Killing someone who is allied/neutral for no apparent reason = Spineless coward :)
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most "top leveling" goes on in warzones? haha yeah maybe if you're a stupid noob. if you have a brain in your head you level in caves, aka "noobie huntzones".
It's called killing two birds with one stone. Warbots give great techpart yields, don't take long to kill, and respawn quickly. They're also the only big prey in the wastes, that I find, which won't come to you faster than a rifle can take them down at range, except perhaps Horrors, but those things don't spawn all that often I find and have a lousy techpart drop rate.
so icestorm, according to you, if someone from an allied faction ATTACKS ME, and I kill him in self defence, i should reap the consequences with a SL hit?
If you're not in a Warzone, yes. That's the way the game's built. Can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen (a.k.a. hunting grounds and anarchy zones). The ops are IN WARZONES. Clans OWN OPS. Why you're spending time in a cave instead of using an OP zone to your advantage, I don't know.
just don't come on teh board and try to spoil the game for the rest of us
Spoil what? You want all penalities removed or severly reduced for killing those who are your allies. That's not the way it works. Maybe if you played ONE CHARACTER instead of splitting your killing and tradeskilling (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89620) between two, you'd "get" it, but you don't. All you want is a gankfest. There are games BUILT for ganking. They're called FPSes. Go play them. Stop trying to remove the consequences for negative behavior from Neocron.
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Psycho Killa
03-02-04, 04:27
Hey you guys who dont want to pvp hell do whatever you want. But personaly if I wanted to trade with people and decorate my apartment and buy new items and all this I would spend the time I use ingame earning credits for this stuff and spend it working at a job or an extra job and buy real life new clothes buy real life new items and enjoy them in the real world rather then work day after day earning digital goods.
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Hey you guys who dont want to pvp hell do whatever you want. But personaly if I wanted to trade with people and decorate my apartment and buy new items and all this I would spend the time I use ingame earning credits for this stuff and spend it working at a job or an extra job and buy real life new clothes buy real life new items and enjoy them in the real world rather then work day after day earning digital goods. Gee, good thing you have no reason to get outside and lead a productive life then, eh? ;)
This all comes down to doing what you enjoy. If someone enjoys Neocron, they should play Neocron.
No one player is going to turn Neocron into a non-PvP game, so you PvPers should just calm down and get some fresh air. So what if someone gets upset and posts in the forum about getting killed? You know what your targets will do. I am sure part of you likes seeing people coming in the forums and complaining.
So just let it go, and play Neocron however you want. But calling people losers because they enjoy Neocron without pissing someone else off is pretty damn pathetic.
TBH, LE's are starting to bug me. Some users view the LE as a way to level safely and not take part in PvP. That’s fine with me, that is their choice. However, there are other users who take it in as a way to grief and be a pain. Now normally, someone grief’s me, I'll shoot them, regardless or if they are going to give me a SL hit, or a quick death. But when an LE user (say a droner) is being a prick there is nothing I can do. That is something that bugs me. I can deal with their insults (ignore feature for th3 win!) but things like team-spaming me when I try to PvP, hitting me with a MR-100 rocket drone, so it's hard to aim, and ect is a pain in the ass and I would normally lay such people out flat.
Honestly, I don't know what KK can do about dumbass's like the above. They are rare, but they do exist and leave me with no way of making them dead.
Yes, I'm aware that the above wasn't coherent. :D
[ edited ]quote]
Where have I said you can't kill other people? If anything. I'm saying you CAN kill people in Warzones, you just don't seem to want to. Anywhere else, and you have to take the good with the bad.
Now, if you want to TWEAK the SL loss so it's not the insanely high -50 it seems to be now, that's fine, but going the complete opposite - no SL loss, that's not ok since it then turns NC into Q3A/UT2K3. You seem to be arguing for a free-for-all. I'm saying a free-for-all is not what NC is about.
NC is a virtual world. There are consequences to your actions. The Jail is a place that negative SL people can hang out and I can only presume it's the first of possibly many such places. NC is getting a place for the "bad" people to go. If you want to play a "bad" person, you have a place to do so. What's the problem? Or are you saying you want to have your cake and eat it, too? Isn't that what you're saying about those who go hunting without their LEs? Pot, kettle, black...
[QUOTe]ill gladly leave. show me a fps where i can level my char, set him up to a tee how i want him, customize him with weapons, armor and other items that i see fit, and fight against other real players,Fight? Oh, so these are "fair" fights where the person who's been taken to 50% health in PvM gets a minute to reheal before you try to kill him? No, what you and a lot of others want is ganking, pure and simple. You want to kill those in the process of either gathering rares or leveling. Exactly what is fun about killing someone who is not at their best due to farming or leveling?
You've "customized" your character and made it so you're at 100% during these "fights". There's no difference between being capped on a weapon and playing Q3A/UT - you're maxed out. It's the same thing. Oooh. You're limited to one weapon class. Big difference there...
where if i kill them it actually means something
Yeah, it means you whacked someone unprepared. Because that's so hard to do in this game if there isn't a PPU shoved up the person's ass...
[ edited ]
Fallout's not first person. Fallout and Fallout 2 have an end. NC does not. I didn't start this game just to fight NPCs. I know it's really, really hard for your multiple-personality Saturn playstyle to understand this, but it's possible to have a support role character in NC that isn't built with the sole intent of capping weapons. I am of the firm belief that every character should have at least one tradeskill in NC, just to round out the population. Multiple chars, one for tradeskills and one for combat, just doesn't work for me. All you're doing with a combat char is create the character used in an FPS at a slower rate of speed. Capped char, stock FPS char, what's the diffference?
[ edited ]
I don't pay $10/month. I pay about $7.50 per account per month. It's a trivial amount of money as I've already pointed out. The people who avail themselves of my services in-game apparently do not feel it's a waste of my time for me to be playing, either...
your arguments are pathetic bro
let me tell you a few things:
1. no player customization in q3/ut2003/etc. i win some fights against people because my character is setup better.
2. i dont kill noobs. if you think im some kinda "noob" you gotta wake up and smell the roses pal. ive been playing this game longer then you could imagine, without "quitting" and coming back like everyone else. I have MULTIPLE pvp tournament wins under my belt, I can link the threads right here if you want me to. I co- lead and basically RUN one of the biggest clans on saturn. Who are you? Some guy named IceStorm on the forum no ones ever heard of? Please...spare me the "you can only kill noobs" bullshit because i can kill 99.9% of the people that play this game (reason I say 99.9% and not 100% is because I can't viably fight every single person thats ever played this game). Every thread about the "best <fill in the blanks> on saturn" you can find my chars names, try doing a search and see for yourself. You think that kind of reputation comes from shooting half dead noobs fighting WBs? Again...wake up and smell the roses dude.
3. it is an accomplishment because the guy is DISPLEASED about getting killed. when you get killed in quake its like aww big deal heres a nice 2 second respawn time. its a different thing, a different world, and if you can't grasp that, you're awfully shallow.
4. finally..."capped char/stock fps char...whats the difference?" wow...you just proved you don't know jack shit about setting up a character properly. congrats to you! difference is, some of us do... my capped chars are much better then the "average" capped chars, let me assure you of that.
carebear rules ruin games and populations, especially games that are BASED on pvp, like this game. i mean, lets be perfectly honest right now....ive played everquest, that game is SO full of content it BLOWS THE MIND. its MADE for pvm, not pvp. there are literally BILLIONS of weapons, armors, etc...different items, spells, ways to customize your char, etc. in comparison, neocron is EXTREMELY limited. in all honesty i would say neocron pvm as a whole makes up for about 5% the amount of monsters in some games, such as daoc and everquest. im not complaining about that, pvm gets old and repetative fast, theres not many thing sto fight in this game in comparison to others. but this is PROOF that this game was made for pvp. 100% proof. and turning into carebear fest 2004, like you are trying to do, doesn't help the game...it hurts it.
end
of
story
MjukisDjur
03-02-04, 10:26
Vett got cloned or something??
i dont kill noobs. if you think im some kinda "noob" you gotta wake up and smell the roses pal. ive been playing this game longer then you could imagine,
Then what's your problem? You hold your PvP tournaments in a Warzone or NF and *poof*, no SL issues to worry about...
ive been playing this game longer then you could imagine, without "quitting" and coming back like everyone else.
I don't have to imagine. I've been playing NC since August, 2001...
I have MULTIPLE pvp tournament wins under my belt
In the immortal words of Stan Marsh, "Don't care, don't care, don't care."
when you get killed in quake its like aww big deal heres a nice 2 second respawn time.
I've seen people get really pissed off at having their low death counts interrupted.
its a different thing, a different world, and if you can't grasp that, you're awfully shallow
I believe one of the biggest complaints people have about NC is that there is very little penality to death. Stuff falls out, parts have to get poked in, but with the new belt drop rules and safe slot it's rare to lose something valuable unless you're a Monk of some sort...
Which is it? Does Death have a penality now or doesn't it? For me all it means is some wear and tear on my imps and a trip to a poker.
wow...you just proved you don't know jack shit about setting up a character properly. congrats to you! difference is, some of us do... my capped chars are much better then the "average" capped chars, let me assure you of that.
If it's capped on damage and all your resists are capped via PPU support or personal spell support, what's the difference? Other than manipulating numbers to find holes in client/server processing of damage, there's not much more to it than possibly FPS skill. When it comes down to "skill", you're back to the Q3A/UT argument...
but this is PROOF that this game was made for pvp
So PvP... No one's stopping you. What's in place now stops you from ganking people in your faction and your faction's allies. You can even switch to full-on ganking of the entire populace if you don't mind giving up your cushy Plaza/Via Rosso Level 3 apartments and having to hang out at the Jailhouse for CopBot support.
turning into carebear fest 2004, like you are trying to do, doesn't help the game...it hurts it.
The intent seems to be one of stopping NC from becoming gank central and putting more emphasis on the MM part of combat (no, a <insert player class>/PPU combo is not "MM"). Tournaments like you describe seem to be fine provided they're held in Warzones. I believe that's what was/is done on Pluto during Fight Night, but FN is held at a time I'm not awake or on the server so I've never had the pleasure of watching one.
Vett got cloned or something??
I don't think so. I think this one doesn't want to expend points in VHC to drive to Warzones which are GR locked, but I'd have to look at Saturn's map to know for sure.
everything g0rt has said, is the truth...
[edited for violation of the forum rules] becuz you've been playing since aug 2001 with your LE in the whole time...just to avoid pvp'ing...so afraid to die or not?...wtf is your deal...you said "For me all it means is some wear and tear on my imps and a trip to a poker." ... so again why are you against pk'ers?...and why have you kept your LE in for over 2 fuckin years...are you afraid to pvp...or are you just refusing to do it...either way...you have no say whatsoever on what people that do pvp want to do...becuz you're obviously not involved
i would love it if they brought back the old rules...player-drops in warzones, no quickbelts, and no safeslot...and the SL penalty dropped down...i dunno if you remember a time when the server got to a point where pretty much everyone was getting bored...so they started pk'ing people in sewers/aggies/etc...then the hunting zones came and all the new hits to pk'ers...and the populations dropped...now try to tell me that downfall wasnt caused by carebears...ffs:rolleyes:
becuz you've been playing since aug 2001 with your LE in the whole time...just to avoid pvp'ing...so afraid to die or not?
I have no desire to PK. I have a slight desire to see allied factions succeed, but they don't need my combat abilities to do that. It doesn't help that my weapons of choice flat-out don't work as they're supposed to. Perhaps when the engine is truly fixed, I'll consider engaging in PvP for the good of my allies, but that's at least five months and another character away.
...wtf is your deal...you said "For me all it means is some wear and tear on my imps and a trip to a poker." ... so again why are you against pk'ers?
Because in a Virtual World I don't believe random acts of violence should go unpunished? NC is not Q3A/UT, it's a Virtual World.
becuz you're obviously not involved
Again with the inability to understand indirect impact on the population at large...
Ironically, more ganking would probably mean more work for me.
...so they started pk'ing people in sewers/aggies/etc...I don't understand why people would kill low-level characters in the cellars. Then again, I'm not sure I agree with the addition of the cellars in the first place
then the hunting zones came and all the new hits to pk'ers...Well, you were ganking low level characters...
and the populations dropped...now try to tell me that downfall wasnt caused by carebears...ffsOnly way to know for sure is to have access to accurate player/subscriber stats, and the only ones who have that are KK. You'd think they would have reversed the rules should the numbers have matched the scenario you just described.
IceStorm there is one big hole in your little "Virtual World" crap. THere is no justice system in Neocron. Theres only one way to recieve justice....copbots. If theres no copbots around, whose there to PROVE you killed the guy? How do you get SL for no reason? No ones there to SEE you kill him, no one can report you if the killer and the victim were the only one around to see, so how come you get SL?
Think of some third world country with no real law set in place. If some guy kills another guy in the middle of nowhere, no one sees it, no one can prove anything, he doesn't get a "murder count" does he?
I really wanna know how running into a chaos cave with NO ONE in it except one guy, killing him, and being on my way, when hes in a clan im AT WAR WITH, and hes in a faction thats ENEMY to me, gives me SL loss.
It makes...110% zero sense.
@MjukisDjur - no im not a Vet clone but I don't enjoy being told I can only kill noobs leveling on warbots, its a crock of crap and anyone who knows me will know that
Devils Grace
03-02-04, 20:08
yes its truth MjukisDjur, g0rt even forbiden me to keep on goin to aggies on killing spree :lol: :D :D :angel:
"bows to mighty leader";)
Devils Grace
03-02-04, 20:11
Originally posted by IceStorm Perhaps when the engine is truly fixed, I'll consider engaging in PvP for the good of my allies, but that's at least five months and another character away.
[ edited for violation of the forum rules - trolling ]
ive seen al excuses to not to fight, but this one here, its just hilarius.............
ill tell what then, all the others that manage to fight a lot and win (or loose doesnt matter) with this crap of engine, imagine what will they do to u and ur 5 months char planning (o_O ) with a new engine
[ edited - flaming ]
Originally posted by Devils Grace
[ edited ]
ive seen al excuses to not to fight, but this one here, its just hilarius.............
ill tell what then, all the others that manage to fight a lot and win (or loose doesnt matter) with this crap of engine, imagine what will they do to u and ur 5 months char planning (o_O ) with a new engine
[ edited ]
hahahahahahaha :lol:
im down
@Icestorm.
TBH, I think you've completely missed the most valid of g0rt's points, which was this:
Originally posted by g0rt
so icestorm, according to you, if someone from an allied faction ATTACKS ME, and I kill him in self defence, i should reap the consequences with a SL hit? :rolleyes: stupidest carebear crap ive ever heard.
Now the above is ridiculous, as I said, if someone attacks you, then you should be able to kill them without penalty. Quite what you can say in defence of the current situation about this I don't know, but basically : someone attacks you = you have full rights to put them down ass up face down on the ground, without penalty.
Referring to Ultima Online, such a thing was called the aggressor flag, where if you attacked someone blue (innocent) you would go grey and susceptible to attack from ANYONE who would recieve no penalty for doing so. Such is the price of assault in that world. However, the grey person attacked could also retaliate against the person who attacked him, without penalty also. It's not a perfect system, since it brought the infamous "noto PKs", but it's definitely better than what happens to you now in Neocron.
I would have thought you would be all in favour for Neocron citizens able to defend themselves effectively against someone in an allied/neutral faction who attacks you.
Of course, I can see that often people may get hit because they simply (or deliberately) walk in the line of fire, and thus able to attack the shooter in question. However, such is the price of taking the LE out.
(edit: changed last paragraph, made no sense :D damned hangovers)
Mr. Chainsaw
03-02-04, 20:28
Well it's come as a huge shock to me (no I'm not being sarcastic) that because I love to stay in character all the time, and because I'm paranoid and kill hostile factions if they look at me for over a second, or run from them if they're really strong, that I am a griefing asshole.
Whaaaa?
I don't genrep camp, grief newbs and sex their corpses, start whining on the trade channel when someone kills me, or anything else. Why do people on this thread think I am the bad guy? Did I totally misunderstand the purpose of the soulight and faction system? When I first started playing without an LE chip in, I was wasted immedietely by hostile factions...which I expected. So, I respond in kind. Now I'm reading these posts that people like me who like to kill rival factions are evil evil SoBs, that we are unimaginative thugs who only kill people because we stupidly press F6 and obey what it says. What the hell? So now it's 'impolite' to fight people? I came to this game FOR fighting, not to sit around and ask politely if I can attack someone.
I'm not one of the jerks here who spouts crap about "I killed 25 newbs at a genrep today, I pwn," or "anyone who uses an LE is teh carebear lozer." I swear I'm an okay guy in real life, and I play neocron because I honestly thought it was geared towards alot of PvP.
One or two people are closer to a ban. Discuss this without resorting to flames from now on.
N
Agreed N :)
Don't want to see it get locked because people can't control their temper properly :)
Originally posted by gostly
now try to tell me that downfall wasnt caused by carebears...ffs:rolleyes:
ok.
I believe it's majorly down to bugs.
Most of the people who quit i spoke to said they quit because they grew tired of the bugs.
others were bored cuz they had no high level content
I haven't seen much blaming carebears tbh
and the low levs well i dunno i dont get chance to ask cuz they come and go without much word but i seriously doubt its carebearism there either
Originally posted by LTA
ok.
I believe it's majorly down to bugs.
Most of the people who quit i spoke to said they quit because they grew tired of the bugs.
others were bored cuz they had no high level content
I haven't seen much blaming carebears tbh
and the low levs well i dunno i dont get chance to ask cuz they come and go without much word but i seriously doubt its carebearism there either
The reason there is no high level content is BECAUSE of the carebears. Think about it, whats fun to do when you're capped?
- op fight
- pepper park fight
- raid hq's (mb/th/tg/etc)
- pk other capped chars for good loot
- guard leveling areas and general places owned by your faction from enemy factions leveling/passing through
Now, because of CAREBEARS....
- op fights, still ok but a slipped barrel or aoe weapon of any sort means hours of fixing SL after....aka boring
- pepper park is nerfed, because of the guards that the carebears demanded, you cannot viably fight there anymore unless your CM vs TG or something heh
- cant raid hq's now on your own you gotta go with a GANK squad and 3+ ppus to even have a chance of living from the turrets/guards
- loot is nerfed now because some people who pk cant hack, so now you cannot even get any LOOT for killing a guy unless you, again, gank with a hacker in your team
- cant guard leveling areas anymore because even the games TOUGHEST areas are considered "hunt zones", which I believe was put in to stop capped chars from fighting noobs in the cellars/sewers...unfortunately they took it too far, as usual
More people I know left because of losing SL around every corner then bugs. The bugs are bad, but its still playable...you can work your way around the bugs, you can't work your way around the soullight system...it simply ruins the game.
Example, back in the ND days we were fighting LoD of tsunami. A buddy of mine amd I came into pp1, got attacked by 3 LoD. We killed them. I was -14 sl, because I started positive. He was -32 because he started under -10.
He went back to his apartment, considered spending 3 hours running delivery missions in TG to fix the situation, but instead he canceled his account and he will NOT be back until simple things like clan wars are implamented.
It really, really, really is pathetic that you can be at war with a clan and still be penalised for killing them, after they attacked you in the first place. Its a big, big problem.
Mr. Chainsaw
03-02-04, 22:47
I've never been to MC5, but I hear that's a hunting zone, is that true? I don't like that if it is...
I don't know that I like alot of the soulight system now. With the whole NCPD bounty thing on citycoms, being tracked by vengful bounty hunters everywhere you go seems like a big enough penalty compared to all the extra stuff negative SL people already deal with.
Originally posted by Mr. Chainsaw
I've never been to MC5, but I hear that's a hunting zone, is that true? I don't like that if it is...
I don't know that I like alot of the soulight system now. With the whole NCPD bounty thing on citycoms, being tracked by vengful bounty hunters everywhere you go seems like a big enough penalty compared to all the extra stuff negative SL people already deal with.
Yeap. The SL system is a joke and needs some serious changes.
And yes, MC5 is a hunting zone....a noobie hunting zone with SL rules to protect the poor noobs leveling in mc5 just trying to get thier char higher level. :rolleyes:
Its a joke...but its not even funny. Its actually more sickening then funny.
First, Carebears in the forum are a vocal minority.
Second, Carebears in the forums dont code the game changes.
Third, most Carebears dont get riled up unless you gank them for no reason other than your own fun.
Go back and find that thread where VetteroX was crying that everyone is using the LE, and that he had fewer targets. You know why that was? Because he couldn't be arsed to let people level without being ganked by his capped characters.
No one comes into a game and tries to change the rules to make them more carebearish. People ask for rule changes when PKers, in their mind, stop them from enjoying the game. Case in point:
- op fight
- pepper park fight
- raid hq's (mb/th/tg/etc)
- pk other capped chars for good loot
- guard leveling areas and general places owned by your faction from enemy factions leveling/passing throughThats a good list gort, but why no mention of capping newbs just for the fun of it?
The IRONY here is that if capped runners actually DID what you listed above... PP fight, op fight, PK other capped characters, etc... I seriously doubt people would have a reason to whine. Its when the capped runners attack newbs that people whine.
Oh and as a side note, the lack of loot from deaths is because of PKers whining, not carebears. It was the PKers that didnt want to lose their ubar guns that caused the loot changes, not carebears.
Go ahead and start a poll and ask about restoring loot drops to how they used to be, and see how many PKers come whining about losing their weaps. Wait, dont bother, I did that myself:
http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88802
Now read that thread and tell me who the carebears are....
And yes, the SL system needs to be reworked... and it seems it will happen for sure with DOY.
Originally posted by g0rt
The reason there is no high level content is BECAUSE of the carebears. Think about it, whats fun to do when you're capped?
- op fight
- pepper park fight
- raid hq's (mb/th/tg/etc)
- pk other capped chars for good loot
- guard leveling areas and general places owned by your faction from enemy factions leveling/passing through
Now, because of CAREBEARS....
- op fights, still ok but a slipped barrel or aoe weapon of any sort means hours of fixing SL after....aka boring
- pepper park is nerfed, because of the guards that the carebears demanded, you cannot viably fight there anymore unless your CM vs TG or something heh
- cant raid hq's now on your own you gotta go with a GANK squad and 3+ ppus to even have a chance of living from the turrets/guards
- loot is nerfed now because some people who pk cant hack, so now you cannot even get any LOOT for killing a guy unless you, again, gank with a hacker in your team
- cant guard leveling areas anymore because even the games TOUGHEST areas are considered "hunt zones", which I believe was put in to stop capped chars from fighting noobs in the cellars/sewers...unfortunately they took it too far, as usual
More people I know left because of losing SL around every corner then bugs. The bugs are bad, but its still playable...you can work your way around the bugs, you can't work your way around the soullight system...it simply ruins the game.
So the only high level content is fighting, see that's the problem, it's sugar coated cs with a hint of rpg atm, there isnt anything anymore bar fighting cept a little tradeskilling..... and anyone who dosent play it to this way is a carebear.
Well why not just remove tradeskills le's etc etc then everyone can fight and play the core element and if they dont they can move on cuz there will defo be no other option for them (as few as they are getting now)
see strych9, 80%+ voted against it..proving that 80%+ of this board are carebears haha
and people left because htey COULDN'T fight....because of hte soullight system.
i personally know one person that left for SB because he just couldn't kill anyone without takign SL and he hasnt been back since about june....
Devils Grace
04-02-04, 02:27
Originally posted by Nidhogg
One or two people are closer to a ban. Discuss this without resorting to flames from now on.
N
goin off topic
i think ur hammer should be nerfed
nerfed i sssssaaayyyy
kthxbye:rolleyes:
EH to many people pulling that thing and putting it back as it suits them. I mean I have seen maybe 2 people at I would call true LE users the rest use it when it suits them.
As for epics buy it or you shit outta luck.
Devils Grace
04-02-04, 12:51
ROFL
I tought u asked for mexican nationality by now:lol:
arriba arriba iiiiiiiiiiiaaaaaaaaaaaaa andalé........
Originally posted by g0rt
see strych9, 80%+ voted against it..proving that 80%+ of this board are carebears haha
and people left because htey COULDN'T fight....because of hte soullight system.
i personally know one person that left for SB because he just couldn't kill anyone without takign SL and he hasnt been back since about june.... The funny thing is that as a BD, you can fight just about anyone in game without SL loss except for what, two factions????
So dont hand me that crap about SL (aside from SL bugs, and lame shit like getting SL loss due to Yos vendors at ops- those problems are game related, not carebear related). I think BD have PLENTY of targets, to where you dont need to quit because you cant PK without the two friendly factions.
And you DONT know how many people have left this game because of PKers killing off their noobs, so numbers of people that left mean little.
And the poll I made- I hope you at least find it ironic that so many people want their precious safe slot. Psycho Killa at least was talking like he is a true PvP fanatic. But the point is that there arent as many "OMG Neocron = hardcore PvP/PK Cyberpunk world" players out there as you think. They may talk tough, or sometimes act tough, but when you present them with steps to make the game less carebear, the shrivel up in the fetal position.
•Super|\|ova•
04-02-04, 14:01
Originally posted by VetteroX
(@everything he has said)
Arrggh!!! DUDE!!! How can you even excist??? You are f*cking paranormal!
Aaaah shit... nevermind. Not even worth of trying. This dude is just way beyond everything. I'm outta here...
Devils Grace
04-02-04, 14:13
Originally posted by •Super|\|ova•
You are f*cking paranormal!
hmmm.....me thinks the hammer just work one way.......:o
me thinks.......
Shatter242
07-02-04, 13:01
Originally posted by Devils Grace
so if im at op and i chase enemy to an narchy zone i will loose a bunch of SL
get out of this game
ppl have to decid what they want, not be in the midle to satisfy their needs..........
No, They leave the zone and guess what: You win. You defended your op. Congradulations, you are the winner.
[ edited for violation of the forum rules - flaming ]
Since when did you care about SL? Go back to camping Gen Reps...
Shatter242
07-02-04, 13:13
Originally posted by g0rt
[ edited for violation of the forum rules - flaming ]
i wanna be able to kill ANYONE I DONT LIKE, is that worded better for you? if i don't like them, i wanna kill them. i don't wanna lose soullight for it. my whole clan works like this, k?
You can't have your cookie and eat it too.
(Yes, I will now resort to using the same arguments from the "pussy/cowards"camp that they chant against the carebear camp.)
This thread is incinerated.
N
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