View Full Version : Another PPU balance idea
Okay, first my assumptions:
1. PPUs play too important a role in PvP
2. PPUs are fine with PvM (since you can elect not to use one yourself, and mobs dont have their own PPUs)
3. Directly nerfing the PPU itself is not the answer
4. PPU heals simply outpace any damage you can cause to a PPU buffed player.
Okay, with that in mind, I suggest
1. Dont change damage taken from mobs
2. Change all damage taken from players have have a % chance of ignoring foreign cast buffs on a player.
How this would work:
If you cast a buff on yourself (shelter, deflector, etc.) then it works as it does now.
If you cast a buff on someone else, and that player is attacked by a mob, it works as it does now.
If you cast a buff on someone else, and that player is attacked by another player, then there is a chance that the attacks will slip by/ignore/overpower the buffs and do normal un-buffed damage.
I think this would make the PPUs have to play a more intensive role in the supporting of players, in that s/d is no longer a guaranteed shield. It still helps, which is key, but its not a guarantee- and follow up heals may be needed.
The goal would be to have it so that it IS possible for someone to outdamage a PPU's foreign cast heal because of the chances that the attacks can do full damage.
Variations/Modifications:
1. PvP attacks can have a % chance to avoid armor.
2. Ways to determine what the % chance is that an attack avoids a buff- weap level, runner level, PPU level, amount of secondary or primary skill level (say if you have a pistol, the amount of PC you have beyond the min requirement for that gun determines your chances to skip the buffs). Whatever.
Just an idea. Just trying to find a way to lower the overall power of the PPU in PvP without necessarily directly nerfing the PPU outright.
Sounds pretty decent to me. I think a lot of people would like it because the PvM aspect of the PPU would stay the same.
It's an ok idea, I just do not like the random % thingy. Random damage is bad for pvp atm imo, and more random stuff..well I think it would be like the same..
Original monk
28-01-04, 17:35
do you guys never stop ? i think you will only be happy if the PPuclass got deleted ... wich aint gonna happen we know by now ...
and i dont like the idea: whats the use of buffing someone when certain shots could "slip" true lol
First, WTF do you mean "you guys." I have always fought for the existence of PPUs and I was one of the FIRST pure PPUs in the game (was pure PPU from the very first day that Pluto came online). So dont EVEN try to lump me in with the guys that whine about PPUs.
I am only trying to find a way to maintain their use but somehow decrease their mandatory role in PvP. FEW people honestly think that PPUs are balanced just fine for PvP. VERY few.
Second, the word "random" appeared nowhere in my post. The % chance for avoiding the buffs would of course be based on some formula.
But the fact remains, PPU fans, that if PPUs remain as powerful as they are now, some sort of nerf will take place. Just trying to think up solutions that could prevent that from happening.
QuantumDelta
28-01-04, 17:53
Originally posted by Strych9
First, WTF do you mean "you guys." I have always fought for the existence of PPUs and I was one of the FIRST pure PPUs in the game (was pure PPU from the very first day that Pluto came online). So dont EVEN try to lump me in with the guys that whine about PPUs.
I am only trying to find a way to maintain their use but somehow decrease their mandatory role in PvP. FEW people honestly think that PPUs are balanced just fine for PvP. VERY few.
Second, the word "random" appeared nowhere in my post. The % chance for avoiding the buffs would of course be based on some formula.
But the fact remains, PPU fans, that if PPUs remain as powerful as they are now, some sort of nerf will take place. Just trying to think up solutions that could prevent that from happening. Nah you instantly jumped on the bandwagon because you made a even remotely balancing orientated comment.
¬.¬
Now you see what most people have to put up with in the other thread.
As for the idea.
It's okay I guess, however, the same as APU random damage I never liked the concept of "luck" in computer games.
Specifically because "luck" is never a skill I seem to have many points in.
I have to say, I'm thinking of deleting my PPU.
Not this thread but the threads in general are spoiling my gameplay. I'm sick and tired of the whole subject and I wish that KK delete the whole monk class as It's too much of a contentious issue.
PPUs, APUs, Hybrids and PEs are all overpowered in my opinion and taking away from one doesn't effect the other three.
Quantum Delta was the only guy who came up with a rational, well thought out and argued solution to the power of PPUs. Simply making all Shelters and Defectors self-cast only was the only solution I was willing to accept. Quite frankly though I wouldn't welcome that now that para and rez have both been adjusted stupidly. I know the current effect of para is wrong before anyone points it out.
It's sad that the same crying bastards are posting here every day about the same shit. It's those people who won't go anywhere without a PPU and claim they have no choice. Same people who won't get off the ground without a rezz. Same people who scream HEAL HEAL HEAL at you all day long in the caves and don't even say thanks.
To address the topic starter:
PPUs don't need any extra work. Managing a quick-belt with 10 spells and a further 8 in you inventory is far too much already. Your idea isn't too bad, but wouldn't nerfing the shields just do what you propose with less hassle/bugs?
More Nerfs.
*Depression sets in*
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Nah you instantly jumped on the bandwagon because you made a even remotely balancing orientated comment.
¬.¬
Now you see what most people have to put up with in the other thread.
As for the idea.
It's okay I guess, however, the same as APU random damage I never liked the concept of "luck" in computer games.
Specifically because "luck" is never a skill I seem to have many points in. Again, I am not for any random aspect to it. If you end up having a factor of 25%, then on average, one in four shots will slip though.
ALTHOUGH with that being the case... mathematically... we might as well just make the buffs less effective in PvP combat, since that is the same end result.
The only advantage to the % to avoid vs the reduction of buff effectiveness in PvP is that the % to avoid would result in low damage volleys and high damage volleys, and would keep the players more on their toes. But otherwise, its the same.
Now in terms of luck, understand that I am suggesting the % chance you have to avoid would be based on some aspect of the runner skills in some way... so it wouldnt be random or based on luck. You might call it luck to get 4 shots in a row that all avoid the buffs or whatever... but it would average out to match your %.
Make any sense?
droners will be able to antiheal soon, that will help if people start playing droners more.
im fed up of these threads, work as a team to take ppu's/ppu buffed players down.
after para is fixed, as far as im concerned ppu's are BALANCED
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
PPUs don't need any extra work. Managing a quick-belt with 10 spells and a further 8 in you inventory is far too much already.Shhhhh! You are a PPU... remember? You can easily keep 10 runners alive vs the attack of 20 runners... YOU WILL RUIN THE ILLUSION if you keep stating facts like that.
;)
Your idea isn't too bad, but wouldn't nerfing the shields just do what you propose with less hassle/bugs?Basically yes. Thats what I say above.
Yeah scrap this thread. No difference from reducing effectiveness of buffs for the most part.
Mods if you see this go ahead and close.
Sign me up for the "make S/D self cast only" department. I think that would work out fine.
QuantumDelta
28-01-04, 18:13
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
I have to say, I'm thinking of deleting my PPU.
Not this thread but the threads in general are spoiling my gameplay. I'm sick and tired of the whole subject and I wish that KK delete the whole monk class as It's too much of a contentious issue.
PPUs, APUs, Hybrids and PEs are all overpowered in my opinion and taking away from one doesn't effect the other three.
Quantum Delta was the only guy who came up with a rational, well thought out and argued solution to the power of PPUs. Simply making all Shelters and Defectors self-cast only was the only solution I was willing to accept. Quite frankly though I wouldn't welcome that now that para and rez have both been adjusted stupidly. I know the current effect of para is wrong before anyone points it out.
It's sad that the same crying bastards are posting here every day about the same shit. It's those people who won't go anywhere without a PPU and claim they have no choice. Same people who won't get off the ground without a rezz. Same people who scream HEAL HEAL HEAL at you all day long in the caves and don't even say thanks.
To address the topic starter:
PPUs don't need any extra work. Managing a quick-belt with 10 spells and a further 8 in you inventory is far too much already. Your idea isn't too bad, but wouldn't nerfing the shields just do what you propose with less hassle/bugs?
More Nerfs.
*Depression sets in*
Strych, it makes sense I do understand your point and it is an ok middle ground, but I would still prefer the "un-nerf rezz/finalise adjustments to para" and then do the Self-cast S/D.
Simply put;
Rezz times did not address how PPUs unbalance op wars.
Heal nerfs will not address how PPUs unbalance op wars.
As you said (I believe you could probably go back to the same thread, first page, and I said something the same) the team orientated character will be the one with the most sway.
What most of the pros (bar rade who just wants to kill ppus I think :p) want it so that PPUs don't make
APU vs Tank vs PE vs Spy unbalanced like they currently do.
The *Only* thing that makes APU vs Tank vs PE vs Spy unbalanced as I have explained on more than one occasion is the shelter and deflector absorbtion.
It's basically because whilst the classes are balanced for one on one combat (APU vs PE = Roughly equal in a duel, PE vs Tank = Roughly equal in a duel, etc), as soon as narutal buffs are no longer a problem, and absorbtion/resists are boosted for all classes (more so for the weaker classes because holy shelter/deflector make up for more of a gap on a weaker resisting character, even though they will yes still be defencively weaker than a highly defencive character) the class with the highest attack and fairly low defence now has the ability to absorb damage at very-close-to-the-highest defencive class in the game.
Totally throwing the balance of combat effectiveness of the classes in op war situations.
If you follow....
Dribble Joy
28-01-04, 18:19
Self cast shields only is a simple and effective way of balancing things, I am amazed why so many people seem utterly opposed to it.
Psyco Groupie
28-01-04, 18:23
umm .. let me get this straight .. theres a random chance that in the middle of an op fight someone will barrel your team and you'll all flop down dead because it 'overpowered' your shelter ..
sounds like fun ... not.
I dont think this is the answer
LOL. Isnt it funny how people latch on to the word "random" WHEN NOT A DAMN THING I SAID HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH RANDOM ACTIONS?
Sheesh. Seriously, reading in fundamental.
It wouldnt be random. The end result is that the shelter/deflector would offer less protection over time. Thats all.
So for those of you that grasp that, just file this idea under "nerf shelter and deflector a bit". Thanks.
Psycho Killa
28-01-04, 18:30
Welcome to the world of attempting to balance strych.
Originally posted by Strych9
LOL. Isnt it funny how people latch on to the word "random" WHEN NOT A DAMN THING I SAID HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH RANDOM ACTIONS?
erm, you said it was random but would 'even out over time'
isn't that the exact same thing they said about APU random damage o_O
Originally posted by Jest
Sounds pretty decent to me. I think a lot of people would like it because the PvM aspect of the PPU would stay the same.
o_O there are only a handful of muppets stating the PPU class is not balanced. So how can you claim a balance idea when it is already balanced?
All this can't kill people with a PPU is total bullshit. You might not be able to kill the PPU, but you can kill thier team and all this 1 vs 1 + ppu is really 1 vs 2 people.
FFS. Learn how to actually play.
you want to make it more intresting make the buffs base on your PSI level. So APUs (who are the weakest) get the better shields, as do ppus then the other classes are on equal standing. Then also remove spells from non-monks.
While your at it fix the weapon switching bug which makes PE/SPYS unbalanced.
Jadin Eleazar
28-01-04, 18:38
Sorry, bad idea.
Poison ignores s/d, then there are the anti-whatever spells.
Then an anti-heal drone will be introduced. That are a lot of things one can use against PPUs or their support.
Let's see how these things work in the fights before starting more and more "nerf-the-PPU" or "I'm-alone-but-want-to-kill-PPUs-too" threads
Too begin with I strongly disagree with a few of the first points.
PPUs are not fine in PvM. The defence they give makes PvM
too easy and makes PPUs "required" to level at a fast rate. It
also forces new hard places, MC5 being the prime example, to be
stupidly hard because otherwise PPUs would make it too easy.
PPUs are also the reason why for example faction guards have to
be so strong, because otherwise people with PPU help would just
ignore them.
Psycho Killa
28-01-04, 18:52
If theres only a hand full of muppets who think ppus are overpowered HALF OF THEM BEING PPUS THEMSELVES.
Then why cant we go a single day without a nerf the ppus thread? Why?
Anyways I will never discuss my opinions on ppus on this forum ever again its pointless.
Originally posted by Kal
erm, you said it was random but would 'even out over time'
isn't that the exact same thing they said about APU random damage o_O Okay, allow me to explain this.
Lets say your attack normally does 40 pts of damage to a person unbuffed, but 10 pts to a person buffed.
So if you have a 25% chance to avoid the buff, then your damage would be
Shot 1: 10 (get the buff)
Shot 2: 10 (get the buff)
Shot 3: 40 (miss the buff)
Shot 4: 10 (get the buff)
Now, the key is that its not random- its either the buffed damage or unbuffed damage- and that with your chance at 25%, it happens on average 1 in every 4 times. What does "on average" mean? Not random.
On Average means that if you do shoot someone 100 times, 25 of them will miss the buff. Now if you do four shots, are you GUARANTEED that 1 in 4, and only 1 in four will hit? Nope.
So the result is that you would end up with "cold spells" - times where no shots makes it through... and "hot spells"- times where a bunch make it through. So it could be
10
10
10
40
10
10
40
40
40
10
10
10
10
10
10
10
Now in that succession of hits, 25% of them avoid the buff.
So no, its not really random. The only random sense to it is that the time at which you avoid the buff is not guaranteed.
Make any sense?
Now the reason that this is no different from a buff nerf is that if you do 40 unbuffed and 10 buffed, and have a 25% chance to avoid the buff, then on average, in a four shot grouping, you will do 10, 10, 10, and 40 points of damage. Or 70 total points, or an average of 17.5 per shot. So if the buffs where nerfed so that if you shot them unbuffed you did 40, and buffed you did 17.5... but you did 17.5 every time... then it would come out to be the same as what I suggest.
So no, it isnt random damage.
QuantumDelta
28-01-04, 18:57
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
If theres only a hand full of muppets who think ppus are overpowered HALF OF THEM BEING PPUS THEMSELVES.
Then why cant we go a single day without a nerf the ppus thread? Why?
Anyways I will never discuss my opinions on ppus on this forum ever again its pointless. heh I think I might be making some headway with slaughtered, he actually slowed down and started listening...But I know how you feel, as for your first sentence;
Could not have said it better myself.
Gah why do the "PPU are already balanced" people always focus in on my posts and flame me? I think I'm gonna agree with PK, this is the last PPU centered post I will ever post in. I only get flamed every single time. Geez even Strych9 got flamed and he is "pro-PPU" in most of the PPU threads I've seen him post in. You guys are ruthless. Well done gents, enjoy the victory.
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Then why cant we go a single day without a nerf the ppus thread? Why?
I ask that exact same question.
I put the people on ignore who couldn't bring a rational argument but just want the PPU removed or nerfed to a point where they are not worth having (still read thier posts occasionally). Oddly enough it is easy to see it is the exact same people posting day after day.
Original monk
28-01-04, 19:38
Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
sounds like fun ... not.
yeah i feel like cocaine
sounds like fun
...
NOT :P
Devils Grace
28-01-04, 19:52
i got another idea of balaNcing the PPU
STOP THROWING IDEAS ABOUT BALANCING THE FUCKING PPU
REMOVING PARA IS ENOUGH
FUUUUUCCCKKKKKKKKK DAMN
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.