View Full Version : Coming from a ppu...
Although I just starting "PvPing" only a few months ago, I have been a ppu for a very very long time. It has been my main and only character that I played. The fact that I was always pure ppu was why it took me so long to level (i always thought powerleveling took enjoyment out of being a ppu, thus taking me even longer to level). I think ppu is a very hard to play and strategic class.
That being said, we need more nerfs. With the exception of some people that have good team work with newb buffing, it is almost impossible to take us down. Did you really enjoy running around that op trying to kill the other clan with their 6+ ppus? Do you like the fact that even though you kill their clan members 5 times each when we were outnumbered, all they had to do was push the line into our op a little bit, and rezz them all over? I know I don't like any of that one bit. It is frusterating, it disguises peoples skill, and it flat out leaves the role of the ppu way too powerful.
Also consider this, with the exception of a few very shitty ppus, do you ever kill any of them when they are running around? NO. You only kill them when they are frozen solid. Now, bare in mind next patch the effect of freezing will be taken down considerably making it even harder to kill a ppu.
Another case in point, you can have 1 ppu and literally 30(maybe more) non monk players and we would never die. Never. Even with a tl 3 heal thrown in, we would never die. They can't freeze us, they can't antibuff us, we are god even against some very very talented non-monk classes.
After that long post, the fact is, we don't just add a few enhancements to the fight by adding a little health to a player now and then that ticks away very slowly, adding impact, but nothing earthshaking. Our impact on the contrary is unparalleled. Not only can we bring an almost dead player back to full health within seconds, but we can add huge amounts of health, resists, and combat skill to them with our level 3 buffs. This coupled with shelters, deflectors and a heal sanctum, and it is very easy to see just how damn important we are.
This all adds up to a fun factor for the non-ppus and the non apus(that have to antibuff the ppus) to about a -5 on the scale of 1 to 10.
Yes, are days are numbered, but maybe if we get enough nerfs we will be placed back to being a great addition to an op fight, instead of a neccesity, and once again will let those that truley have skill show their greatness.
Sorry for the rant but we need nerfed. We take away that fine line between skill and overpowered, and right now the overpowered ppus coupled with the fact that the other team has a great number of them means that they win, no questions asked. It hides the skill of our clan members who are some of the best in the game, and at the same time hides even the skill of those ppus that are good and those that are bad.
I really think i'm stating fact here and not opinion and anyone that disagrees is probably going to be a ppu or people that rely heavily on the ppu. I posted this in some other NC forums and people liked it so they thought I should post it here.
And i apologize in advance for posting another ppu thread, i know we don't exactly have a shortage of em on here.
Shadow Dancer
28-01-04, 02:47
I love you. You're my new hero.
However I think that if more anti-ppu weaponry or general ppu nerfs is introduced, perhaps the "stress" level of being a ppu can be decreased. Any ideas anyone? I don't have anyting specific in mind atm.
Did you ever know that your my hero?
[edited for violation of the forum rules]
Heavyporker
28-01-04, 04:10
I shudder to wonder what nerfing a PPU consitutes...
unless it merely entails cutting their spells bonus stat-ing by 1/3 to half, or on a similiar but different tack of making heat resist only give + FIR and small HLT and haz give only +POR and small HLT and the like for the rest of the combat buffs and shit.
Nothing wrong with PPUs except para, and if they are running around not paraed tehn they arn't ressing.... non ressing PPU ain't that bad a thing.
Originally posted by Ferabukoo
[B][edited for consistency]B]
Kayne drops jsut as fast under the nub shelt as any ppu don't worry tried and tested
i dont think its fair that you rally for support for something that you dont find fun.
i like being a ppu i like fighting ppu and i can kill them glued and unglued.
can you all just stop trying to take away all the real challenges to this game. its balanced already. if you cant solo kill a ppu with his 40 second rez guess what,
YOU SUCK
teamwork ok, its still monk o cron sooo, devourer + holy antibuff + any pierce damage can kill ANY ppu army
get used to it, you arent going to solo a ppu. flame on i wont even respond.
Nice to see more people realising whats actually wrong with the
class.
i tyhink they are too powerfull especialy the holy heal... its almost a waste of all of your time to shoot somone only to have one spell put on them and have them back to full health in 4 seconds..
i think if they got rid of parashock and reduced effect of holy heal on others it would be better
Shadow Dancer
28-01-04, 04:43
Originally posted by Ferabukoo
i tyhink they are too powerfull especialy the holy heal... its almost a waste of all of your time to shoot somone only to have one spell put on them and have them back to full health in 4 seconds..
i think if they got rid of parashock and reduced effect of holy heal on others it would be better
omg, now that you lommed to apu all of a sudden you're seeing ppus in a new light.
pfftttt :p
Anyways, to ME, the problem was and always has been that ppus are too important.
Originally posted by Rade
Nice to see more people realising whats actually wrong with the
class.
Rade you don't even play a ppu so how would you know? I personally think that there is something wrong with ppus, which is they're too important. Otherwise there isn't anything much wrong with them other then para. But people like you who don't even play a ppu complain and the people that do play a ppu get tired of it and worry about each test server and if kk gonna fuck up the class just because they listened to you people.
Ok, so PPUs are too important.. but not because they are too
good? Please, do feel free to explain.
Originally posted by Rade
Ok, so PPUs are too important.. but not because they are too
good? Please, do feel free to explain.
I think they're too important becuase they can turn other chars into gods making it so you need a ppu to fight someone that has a ppu. The ppu itself is fine imo.
Originally posted by petek480
I think they're too important becuase they can turn other chars into gods making it so you need a ppu to fight someone that has a ppu. The ppu itself is fine imo.
So their abilities are too good and hence they become too
important. Reduce their abilities. I dont see what you mean with
your last sentence tho. I thought we already agreed that the ppu
was _not_ ok?
Originally posted by Rade
So their abilities are too good and hence they become too
important. Reduce their abilities. I dont see what you mean with
your last sentence tho. I thought we already agreed that the ppu
was _not_ ok?
You know what i mean so why don't you just stop fucking around. All that needs to be done is to make the buffs a ppu give to less powerful. So someone who has ppu buffs won't be 10 times as powerful as someone that doesn't have ppu buffs.
No I dont know what you mean because I dont think PPUs are
fucking ok in any way.
Originally posted by Rade
No I dont know what you mean because I dont think PPUs are
fucking ok in any way.
Why not? Becuase you can't 1vs1 them?
No, because you cant anyamountwithoutmonksvs1 them.
**ps. nite.
Psycho Killa
28-01-04, 05:16
He means ppus arent to unkillable they just make other people to unkillable.
Also I think that you should get 50 percent more team xp as a monk if you have 0 apu.
Originally posted by Rade
No, because you cant anyamountwithoutmonksvs1 them.
**ps. nite.
Yes of course. It is completely impossible to take down any ppu without another monk. This is why people are tired of people like you whining. How about you fucking stop using all best ppus to try and get the entire ppu class nerfed. Ever think about the average ppu? Of course not, just becuase you can't beat the best ppus on the server you might as well nerf them all.
Lifewaster
28-01-04, 05:27
I am a PPU now 93 psi 81 int.
I think...
(1)Remove para and damage boost completely from PVP.
(2)Change holy heal to last 30 seconds, for same health, so heal rate is halved but stress of timing it on several ppl etc is reduced.
(in fact change all 3 heals to this, since without para and db , PvP will do less damage so but may last a little longer)
(3)Unnerf shelters back to old protection, so the reduced heals dont have an overly effect on PvM.
(4)Give PPU a different survival spell in its place , like the meridian 59 rescue spell, that synchs the PPU to their appartment.
(Maybe add a holy rescue spell that syncs another player to their appt if they are teamed.)
So PPU can still help the same against mobs, shelters and antishelters have a more effect in PvP, and heals have lesser effect in PVP. And PPU still gets to survive and not drop vital spells by rescuing out of a fight rather than relying on ability to outheal 20 players.
Originally posted by petek480
Yes of course. It is completely impossible to take down any ppu without another monk. This is why people are tired of people like you whining. How about you fucking stop using all best ppus to try and get the entire ppu class nerfed. Ever think about the average ppu? Of course not, just becuase you can't beat the best ppus on the server you might as well nerf them all.
thanks pete... this is what i been saying for months now. im glad that a better known ppu finally stood up and agreed what i have been trying to say for a while. there is no fuckin explaining shit to radeon this issue. he wont be happy until neocron is really neoUTcron or neoCScron. people like rade wont be satisfied until the ppu is not nerfed, but exteriminated.
Psycho Killa
28-01-04, 06:08
I dont have a clue how they can fix ppus to be honest.
You balance them based upon the average ppu and u got 10 ppus on each server who are teh uber.
You balance them upon the 10 uber ppus and you get a bunch of shitty worthless ppus.
There needs to be a happy medium but I dont know what it would be.
I think just a slight tweak is needed mostly in foreign casted things to be honest.
Shadow Dancer
28-01-04, 07:07
Shields should be self/cast only.
That would reduce their importance to a reasonable level.
Then the team having 55 ppus would have a better advantage, but not an automatic win against a team with 2 ppus. :P
Hell, might even go to an op war without a ppu. OMFG IMAGINE THAT.
Nah, KK wouldn't want that. :rolleyes:
QuantumDelta
28-01-04, 07:19
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Shields should be self/cast only.
PPUs fixed in one SIMPLE CHANGE.
I'm serious.
This is all that needs to be done.
It will up the skill level needed to be a good PPU (Meaning keep your team mates alive) while lowering the STRESS on a PPU during a fight.
Especially big fights.
Then the team having 55 ppus would have a better advantage, but not an automatic win against a team with 2 ppus. :P
exactly.
With Self Cast S/D My PPU could equal a few PPUs I suspect in battle.
It would not effect class balance in any way what so ever because all the other classes are balanced based on ONE VS ONE SELF BUFF STATS.
The ONLY Reason PPUs fuck this up is because it completely turns everything (defencively) on it's head.
Hell, might even go to an op war without a ppu. OMFG IMAGINE THAT.
Nah, KK wouldn't want that. :rolleyes: [/B]
No probably not ¬.¬
Know what though?
One of the most useful spells against a PPU is DB.
Providing this is one minute into the fight (so as the PPU cannot recast HCS), DBing a PPU *WILL* Kill them if they're being shot at by Lib/Dev.
PERIOD.
Holy Shelter adds 75% of the remaining unabsorbed absorbable damage.
DB removes 50% of the protection a player has.
Seriously.
Self Cast S/D.
Removal of Para.
Slight tone down of runspeed.
I'd also ask that buffs (Primaries) could have their range upped fairly significantly, it's more than just slightly annoying trying to buff people with those spells when you can't even walk cast'em because you can't build'em.
I still believe the rezz nerf was over done.
Sledge hammer as per.
Even if I do normally agree with the guy who did it's oppinion.
JackScratch
28-01-04, 07:22
I can already see where this is going. So, just out of curiosity, those 30 people who couldn't kill you, were they PPUs or just mentaly deficient? Those are the only 2 posibilities. This entire thread is an ego post followed by back pating amongst those who agree on a subject they are mistaken about. Now the last time I said I know how to kill any PPU it was decided that I clearly sucked as one useing the most fucked up string of logic in the history of man. I'm not interested in that discusion again, but the starting post here is as clearly bullshit as I have ever seen. I call bullshit. Steaming pile. No acuracy or truth involved. Oh, wait you are a PPU, Oh then clearly I have been wrong all this time, I mean if you are a PPU, then that must mean everyone who disagrees is wrong, what a pile.
Psycho Killa
28-01-04, 07:24
To bad the community is to blind to see the foreign cast thing. The best we can hope for is a further nerfing in foreign cast thats the closest we will come to it...
Hey even if foreign cast was 1/4 as powerful as the normal use it would be valuable for apus and tanks but would actualy make pes a tad bit more useful at op fights since they would get a couple more percent on shelter but not to much more.
O but for once I agree with jack I call bullshit on the 30 non monks. You can take alot but no more then like six or 7. Its doable with like 4 of the top tanks I would say.
(Though this is heavily circumstancle if 30 people are chasing me then i may be able to get away because A) tanks gotta slow down to shoot B) non monks means no parashock and c) Im fast as hell.)
QuantumDelta
28-01-04, 07:26
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
To bad the community is to blind to see the foreign cast thing. The best we can hope for is a further nerfing in foreign cast thats the closest we will come to it...
Hey even if foreign cast was 1/4 as powerful as the normal use it would be valuable for apus and tanks but would actualy make pes a tad bit more useful at op fights since they would get a couple more percent on shelter but not to much more. Think the post above you proves that one :p
Psycho Killa
28-01-04, 07:29
Actualy I think 1/3 foreign cast would be ok thats only 25 percent damage absorb on a capped shelter that seems fair to me.
Honestly heals need a bit of sorting and blessed heal is to good if u ask me its like 20 a tick and holy heal is high 20s when normal heal is like 7 lol.
Shadow Dancer
28-01-04, 07:34
Removing para from PvM and making shields self cast. Sounds good to me. Balance apus in op fights imo. I would really like it if a tank came with me to an op fight, if that was the case. Rather than the way it is now with me just wanting apus/ppus and hackers to come with me. :p
Droners and snipers would be more effective. So would tank AOE.
Apus can't just rush in like madmen. And they wouldn't lose any importance, since they would still be the only ones who could truely kill a ppu and they still deal lots of damage.
WTF is wrong with this idea??
JackScratch
28-01-04, 07:34
Come on, lets call it like it is. People cant waltz out and murder an PPU they see and that's imbalance, no one cares about anything else, they want to gank, and there is a class they can't, and that is ther greatest atrocity there ever was. Never mind that classes ability to do damage or anything else for that matter, it may come up, but it isn't what we are realy talking about. It's the lack of victimiseability of the PPU, they can't stand it, it's worse than an LE to them because they can target them. That is the real subject here. They wont even bother to learn enough about the weakness of the class to fix the problem themselves, easier to just cry "NERF", throw in a little bandwagoning, and danger of exerting effort averted.
Psycho Killa
28-01-04, 07:36
Jack I think your taking the wrong approach to this argument
THERES NO VICTIMIZATION IN OP FIGHTS.
I dont see people going o shit I couldnt gank the ppu in the wastelands.
Op fights are currently not fun the way they are. Ppus need to be less important and necceary for op fights.
And there is 0 weakness to explot in a ppu 0.
Edit: turned down the leet caps a bit
Jack your way to hung up on thinking everyone in the community is here to gank. Honestly theres very few gankers and the rest of us just want to balance the friggen game.
KramerTheWeird
28-01-04, 07:43
jackscratch, the original poster IS a ppu
I agree 100% with bounty. Stop making monks a dependancy and let people fight as they want. Only the skilled will have a place on the map after that, not some clans gifted with tons of ppu's.
JackScratch
28-01-04, 08:03
Yeah Kramer, got that, ever heard of sarcasm? I've been a PPU since Beta 4 and that doesn't seem to help anyone agree with me. I guess it only validates your case if they agree with it in the first place. That being so, only reason it was brought up is invalid to start with.
See, I understand that many actualy believe this to be te case, accurate or not. However what we are talking about has nothing to do with balance, and everything to do with perseption of how they thing the game should work. Meanwhile balance is takeing it soundly in the kiester. Nerf 3rd party cast? Make PPUs less needed? Why is anyone going to play one again? Yeah, they are handy at OP fights. Try takeing an OP with only PPUs, now that will be a good laugh. This whole discussion is all about NERFing, an idea that became popular as an alternative to actualy playing the game, no instead lets just get on the forums and pitch a fit till the screw the game play around till it suits me. Well fuck that.
QuantumDelta
28-01-04, 08:04
The reason I (as a PPU of reasonable skill ....ask around uranus, I didn't play enough to "show off" heh :/) prefer the pure self-cast not "semi functional" buffs on others is because quite simply it lowers the workload and completely balances the classes in op wars (except spies but we're workin on that in the other thread).
It also means heal would not have to be adjusted, because I personally think holy heal is ok when you consider the PPU has absolutely zero attack...
Also removal of Parashock is fairly important to that because of the whole "you are not immortal if you are PPU backed" thing heh.
@ Jack.
I'm guessing you're not a very Good PPU?
o_O
Psycho Killa
28-01-04, 08:11
HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH I LOVE QD
Anyways Jack the fact that they cant cause any daamge is completely negated by the fact of there importance.
Want to see a bigger laugh then an op fight of all ppus? Try an op fight with 30 people vs 10 people and 2 of the 10 are ppus and no ppus on the 30 man side.
Now that op fight would be a laugh to see 30 people raped by 10.
QuantumDelta
28-01-04, 08:21
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH I LOVE QD
Anyways Jack the fact that they cant cause any daamge is completely negated by the fact of there importance.
Want to see a bigger laugh then an op fight of all ppus? Try an op fight with 30 people vs 10 people and 2 of the 10 are ppus and no ppus on the 30 man side.
Now that op fight would be a laugh to see 30 people raped by 10.
I've seen 30 raped by 2.
But, in theory, if ALL THIRTY are APUs they might just pull it off if they play it right...
Even against Polarity/Whoever else you think is the best PPU around :p
JackScratch
28-01-04, 08:31
The un accounted for factors in this equasion bogle the mine. QD you guess both incorrectly and foolishly. Could someone please explain to me where you morons get that my knowledge of how to kill PPUS (all of them) makes me a bad one? Don't bother answering I know, from an ASSumption. You are makeing the assumption that as a PPU, I get killed a lot, and just assume that all PPUs will die as easily and in the same way as I do. Well thx for the vote of confidance, but if you are just going to assume my arguements, then please DO NOT RESPOND TO MY POSTS.
In fact, if you are going to bother with silly things like reading and comprehending what I post, then please add me to your ignore list.
I agree opwar are damn ridiculous when one tank, one ppu takes out like 20 people unhurt. just becuase the other side didn't have a ppu.
I 100% agree with the selfcast thingie, this would make everyone balanced on the field. I don't think parashock needs to be balanced.
In all of the games the ppus are the only healing class, which can actually carry amazing defensive powers, rendering himself and his friends indestrutible.
I have a decent ppu of two stars rassilion on uranus, my setup I tell you is crap, and so are my resists, I am a shit ppu but I can still stand agaisnt 4 tanks, and manage to heal and support my mates. (while running around of course not even with buffs I can stand still agaisnt 4 tanks)
Isn't that a bit unfair?
Acutally the 30 non-monks vs 1 ppu is possible, because the ppu just has to keep s/d/heal/healsanc up and run in the middle of the crowd... they'll never hit the monk because they can't target him. And when they do he's behind someone else and they lose their lock. I personally think 4 non-monks vs 1 ppu would do better than 30, just because they won't get in eachother's way as much.
I have seen 20 non-monks vs 1 ppu and the ppu never went below 3/4 health. The non-monks were some of the best PEs, Tanks and Spies on pluto... not THE best, but probably above average.
PPUs die. But assuming for the second you don't. Does all your team have immortality now? When all your team dies, what can you do? Stand there and go "look at me I'm ubar, I can't die!". Fat lot of good that is.
I've seen 30 raped by 2.
I've seen this as well, it has nothing to do with PPU but that the 2 actually have experience in fighting. A recent op war I Was at our side we had 2 ppus and 8 people (plus Rhino+2). Everyone was dropped in seconds, the ppu didn't have time to react to save them. Once everyone was dead they then killed the PPU.
I've seen 10 killed by 2... both sides had a PPU, but the side with 10 really sucked at fighting. Won't mention names or anything. But the side with 2 was PPU/Tank.
Maybe they should give APUs a spell called Holy Anti-Buff Barell. lol. That'd be fun in op fights. All you need is 1 APU and no more buffs ... for anyone...
All I have to add is:
(2) (thats right), are on the " kill the ppu bandwagon". this bandwagon is no bigger than 5 forum posters.
tell me,, if you take away foreign cast, what the fuck is the point of the ppu's existance? PPU's cant kill you in return! If op fights arent fun because there are ppu's there.. fucking quite u whiners.
You take away the foreign cast and you might as well just do away with the PPU. the whole purpose of the ppu is to support, thats right ladies; to foreign cast. I immensly enjoy op fights the way they are now. I like the way stuff is. Leave it alone!
PPU cant kill anything alone, its the only class that MUST have a team member to level. So why the hell are you all trying to make it so that the PPU is solo killable?
I hope Kk doesnt fall for this line of horse shit.
Always the same fuckin whiners making the same posts about the same thing. If you are unhappy move on. Leave my class alone. tired of having to change my PPU playing style and set up after ever other patch.
I think what they mean by no foreign casting is no foreign casting deflector and shelter. They can still cast resist buffs, combat buffs, support buffs, sanctums, and heals.
It's not a bad idea except that only apus can do it... imagine, holy antibuff... SANCTUM!
Of course the apu using it is screwed over, but so is everyone within range, the only thing that makes an ok idea and not a good one is that how could ppus survive the minute one of these things goes up? Parashock.... maybe? I dunno, but I like this idea a lot more then holy antibuff barrel. Which is also a fine idea.
Edit: Of course the barrel thingy also screws over ppus, perhaps some kind of set status spell is part of the cath sanctum? Shelter/deflector are not affected by anti spells of any kind but a heal is also immediately cancelled?
Whatever, it certainly would be a funny thing to see, an apu charging through battle trying to get within range of the ppu without a heal, shelter or deflector on him but with the ability to NUKE any ppu in range.
I'm sure ppus have a much more reasonable solution towards making them equal to any other class then I could come up with having only some experince with ppus.
ok lets say that kk does do away with parashock..
now look whats what next on the line? holy heal... what do you think will come next? dont you all see the trend?
these whiners will never be satisfied until the ppu is crushed out of existance. you all think you arent having fun? imagine that pure ppuwho spent months leveling (cuz its fuckin impossible to power level a pure ppu from birth)
his character. Do you think that ppu is having fun when you nullify his utter existance.
Leave shelter deflector alone. its fine.
dont you see the unbalance trend? nothing will ever be enough. nothing. if they get this nerf i garantee you they will move on to the next thing they arent arsed to overcome.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
However I think that if more anti-ppu weaponry or general ppu nerfs is introduced, perhaps the "stress" level of being a ppu can be decreased.
how would a thing that kills us faster make it less stressfull to play a ppu?
i can answer that deac.,... its the simplton mind of thought that ignorant people who never play as a ppu have.
its the elitist attitude of being able to own all minus a ppu that makes them frustrated.
if you arent having fun bcuz the other team has better ppu's here what you... get better ppus!
or better get fighters that arent noobs and can actually kill ppu's. sounds like these guys are in clans that suck so bad in fighting that their only option is to mold the game to their liking.
:rolleyes:
i really wish kk wouldnt bend over backwards as much as they did. this nerf shit is the biggest exploit of the game imo
KramerTheWeird
28-01-04, 11:07
you ever consider that ppu's make it so that an individual's skill is not as important as the ppu's own skill? Fighters can sure struggle in op fights with a mediocre PPU, whereas low skilled fighters with highly skilled ppu's just sit there and act like a turret, missing half their shots but still winning :rolleyes:
Originally posted by petek480
It is completely impossible to take down any ppu without another monk.
I think like... err... this is the way it's supposed to be??
If PPUs were killable by any other class then you could delete the whole class alltogether. There is no way you could make PPUs killable by any other class without fucking up the game balance so bad you'd had to start all over again with the class design.
Antibuffs for other classes? Well, then they would be unbalanced against other classes as well, since shelters and deflectors would then need a boost or someother anti anti-buffage stuff or whatever (i.e spy antibuffing a PE, or vice versa).
Shelter/deflector piercing weapons? Well, then they would be unbalanced against other classes as well...
etc, etc et al...
PPus not overpowered some people say? I remember a big op fight at Jeriko not so long ago when ND were still in TG. TT and CM won the op fight and at the end there was one TG PPU still on the field, he was from AESN I think (I remember it cause I was there getting screenshots [which I still have] and both TG and TT were accusing me of spying lol). I watched as he was chased by at least 20 people, mostly tanks and monks. He was hit by CS and Mal fire, and several HL and toxic beams. On top of that he was getting paraspammed. Through all this he still managed to make it from near the mutant trap to the GR. That is overpowered! I was told that the guy was an excellent PPU (cant remember his name for the life of me) but despite that no one player should be able to survive that.
He didn't die.. but did you notice he was running for the genrep.
That means his friends were probably dead and at that point he is totally useless in the op war. A PPU who runs away while leaving thier team there is hardly a good PPU.
The fact he ran away proves this. Big deal so you couldn't kill him.
* Btw, a PPU who can't die is not a good PPU IMHO. A PPU who can keep a whole team alive is a good PPU.
*I* wasnt trying to kill him. I was there getting screenies...besides I was (and still am) an LE'd faction hopper;)
Most of his friends actually ran off 1 sector south and left him stranded when they started to get outnumbered. He did manage to keep one or two people alive alot longer than they should have been.
slaughteruall
28-01-04, 12:14
No, because you cant anyamountwithoutmonksvs1 them.
Thats amazing my PE killed a TG PPU in TH just the other day. Just becuase he was stupid and never put up a def and tried to run from me. I have killed PPU's on my APU/PE/Tank. The damn good one's you cant kill one on one no matter what class you are.
exactly.
With Self Cast S/D My PPU could equal a few PPUs I suspect in battle.
It would not effect class balance in any way what so ever because all the other classes are balanced based on ONE VS ONE SELF BUFF STATS.
The ONLY Reason PPUs fuck this up is because it completely turns everything (defencively) on it's head.
Can anyone say tank-O-cron or PE-o-cron all over again. You do something like that and there will be no monks at all. No point in playing a APU who will die first every time. No point in playing a PPU who really can't do shit. Might as well turn everymonk into a hybrid. Oh wait with everyone bitching about the GOOD hybrids they've been nerfed badly.
Apus can't just rush in like madmen. And they wouldn't lose any importance, since they would still be the only ones who could truely kill a ppu and they still deal lots of damage
Remember you people already bitched and got APU's range nerfed. Hence now we even have to go further into the OP to be usefull.
(while running around of course not even with buffs I can stand still agaisnt 4 tanks)
Ok your either on crack or your fighting 0/2 tanks. NO PPU can stand up to 4 tanks without buffs. Incase you dont know buffs are primaries AND Shilds.
I think what they mean by no foreign casting is no foreign casting deflector and shelter. They can still cast resist buffs, combat buffs, support buffs, sanctums, and heals.
Like it matters you remove foreign casting of Shelter and deflector might as well remove the entire monk class from the game. Just what PPU's want to do switch out primaries from there belt and rezz ppl over and over.
It's not a bad idea except that only apus can do it... imagine, holy antibuff... SANCTUM!
Of course the apu using it is screwed over,
Not at all screwed over remember NO FOREIGN CAST SHIELDS. Means the APU would NEVER have a shelter or deflector
Also lets think about this. Can you imagine MC5 without PPU buffs? Or have you forum trolls even been to MC5? I imagine not since your always on the forum posting about PPU NERFS. Get some skill and think about things before you post.
There is only a few people that have posted in this thread that even have a clue what they are talking about. Two of them are webshock and jackscratch. Everyone else has NO IDEA what is happening.
Slaughter
PS @Syph God i remember that fight that was a blast TG came back 4 times that day each time with more and more people. Do you think you could send me those screenies? I did not have a chance to take some during the battle. You were there you know why :D If you can send them to slaughteruall@msn.com or i can get them threw AIM or what ever.
Originally posted by petek480
I personally think that there is something wrong with ppus, which is they're too important.
this statement is very true, PPU's (if yu look at them subjectively) are ok, theres nothing wrong with them, however, its what they bring to an opfight/PvP that makes them overpowered.
A clans chances at an op battle exponentally increase dependant upon the numbers off PPU's they have.
however
Originally posted by Lifewaster
(1)Remove para and damage boost completely from PVP.
(2)Change holy heal to last 30 seconds, for same health, so heal rate is halved but stress of timing it on several ppl etc is reduced.
(in fact change all 3 heals to this, since without para and db , PvP will do less damage so but may last a little longer)
(3)Unnerf shelters back to old protection, so the reduced heals dont have an overly effect on PvM.
(4)Give PPU a different survival spell in its place , like the meridian 59 rescue spell, that synchs the PPU to their appartment.
(Maybe add a holy rescue spell that syncs another player to their appt if they are teamed.)
So PPU can still help the same against mobs, shelters and antishelters have a more effect in PvP, and heals have lesser effect in PVP. And PPU still gets to survive and not drop vital spells by rescuing out of a fight rather than relying on ability to outheal 20 players.
BY JOVE I THINK HE'S GOT IT
however points 3 and 4 will probably need 'tweaking' so that the shelter nerf will be more balanced. and 4.... well only if it took a minute to cast or something or maybe not... i dunno it smells like it could be abused
other than that.... Bounty i think i want yur babies
Just what PPU's want to do switch out primaries from there belt and rezz ppl over and over.
No. It means people can no longer turret and rely on the PPU's S/D to survive. They would actually have to use tactics, and by tactics I don't mean the current "S/D HEAT/SPY/HC" "HEAL" tactics.
PPUs would still give a huge bonus in the wars because of holy heal, and they would still be very tough themselves, but they would no longer be the only deciding factor in the war. If your team plays badly, they will lose. As it is at the moment, if your PPU's perform well then you win, no matter what the fighters are doing.
Not at all screwed over remember NO FOREIGN CAST SHIELDS. Means the APU would NEVER have a shelter or deflector
Well gee wiz, I never thought of that. I mean, that would mean the APU would no longer be the front line fighter at op wars. What a completely unimaginable idea. Hah, they'd be reduced to mere SUPPORT, no way am I letting that happen to my APU. I mean, if I didn't have S/D I'd have to actually learn how to fight, rather than just cap my HL and attack when shielded with heal running. [/sarcasm]
So yeh, remind me again why self-cast-only is a bad idea?
Originally posted by shardl0r
No. It means people can no longer turret and rely on the PPU's S/D to survive.
Why don't you remove armor while your at it?
PPUs would still give a huge bonus in the wars because of holy heal, and they would still be very tough themselves, but they would no longer be the only deciding factor in the war.
They have long since stopped being a deciding factor in Op wars. Heck even the example thrown earlier points out the PPU couldn't get them to win (despite being ubar), before it would be 3-5 second rez time and people fighting again.
The fact you are unable to see this means you need to go practise some more.
Well gee wiz, I never thought of that. I mean, that would mean the APU would no longer be the front line fighter at op wars.
Unless I am missing something, APUs have horrible defenses and thier spells are range nerfed. Which means the APU will drop in seconds, long before they can do any serious damage.
They only become really viable characters when teamed. You want to remove that.
Originally posted by shardl0r
So yeh, remind me again why self-cast-only is a bad idea?
Did you bother to read my reply at all?
Open your mind a bit (since you have the bandwagon tunnel vision) and imagine yourself as a ppu
what purpose would you have at all besides running around healing everyone since you cant Shelter/Deflect
(BTW there already is a nerf trend happening where the same whiners want holy heal nerfed)
Tell me what purpose a PPU will pose if he cant shelter deflect or heal...
I'll tell you, as a capped PPU with a lot of OP war experience, thats all I do. Heal SD. Resist buffs (PSI 3 ? HC3) are not given at all by the ppu once the shit hits the fan and the fighting begins.
You get protection and heal. Why no resist? Because its usually 1 ppu per 3 characters. If you want to keep your squad alive you dont have time to dish out the whole god mode package (as you all like to refer to it)
Why on earth would you want to make a supprt character self cast only??? think about it for the love of all thats reasonable.
o PPU's cant attack (and if you think a soul cluster will help u in OP wars u are on crack, SC is nothing but a mere distraction and if one kills you, you suck lol)
o PPU's _MUST_ fight in a team if he/she wants to XP.
o PPU's have god mode (BTW isnt really god mode unless you are near cap and know how to use a ppu) because they have NO offense.
Think about it. what purpose does a ppu have if you take away a major support role he has.
Not to mention that if you make SD self cast only and your whole purpose are sanctums and running around like a mad man with a holy heal pulled out it gets reeeeeeeally boring.
Lets not forget that the same whiners are rallying for a heal nerf. You all are getting way to unreasonable
I blame KK. They got so good at responding to whiners that the said players find it easier to whine for a nerf than to actually acquire new tactics to overcome the tough challenge called a capped ppu
You think OP wars are to short now? Imagine a 2 minute zerg since there will be NO buffs to keep a fighter resistant. then the outcome of a fight will go to the people with the larger force.
This will create Nothing but more cries for nerfs then.
Can you all just stfu and learn to play the game? No PPU is unkillable _NONE_
even eledhbrandt, one of the best PPU's on saturn bites the dust once in a while. That's when he confronts a force who can actually work as a team. The whole point of this game.
If you want to be top dog at something, go play cs rtcw or UT.
LEAVE THE PPU's alone!
slaughteruall
28-01-04, 14:09
Well gee wiz, I never thought of that. I mean, that would mean the APU would no longer be the front line fighter at op wars. What a completely unimaginable idea. Hah, they'd be reduced to mere SUPPORT, no way am I letting that happen to my APU. I mean, if I didn't have S/D I'd have to actually learn how to fight, rather than just cap my HL and attack when shielded with heal running. [/sarcasm]
So yeh, remind me again why self-cast-only is a bad idea?
Why dont you read what i said above that quote. Wait i will give it to you dont want you to get that wrong also.
That was a reply to THIS quote.
It's not a bad idea except that only apus can do it... imagine, holy antibuff... SANCTUM!
Of course the apu using it is screwed over,
Unless I am missing something, APUs have horrible defenses and thier spells are range nerfed. Which means the APU will drop in seconds, long before they can do any serious damage.
They only become really viable characters when teamed. You want to remove that.
Hey look archeus got it right.
@shardl0r Can you please read the entire post you are trying to criticise it might make you come off more inteligent. Also do you even have a PPU or even a APU? Or are you one of those ppl that dont play this class but want it nerfed?
Slaughter
Originally posted by WebShock
Open your mind a bit (since you have the bandwagon tunnel vision) and imagine yourself as a ppu
...
LEAVE THE PPU's alone!
You're the one thats on the bandwagon and wont realise that
PPUs are destroying the game for everyone thats not a monk.
We wont leave it alone until its fixed, simple as that.
thats not very fair to say rade. you dont even have a answer to what pete the psi told you last night. All you like to do is cause trouble and stir up shit.
realize that you _CANNOT_ solo a ppu. you and i both know thats what this is all about.
Realize that what you want will make it almost impossible for PPU's to level.
Why would I want to give a ppu my xp as a fighter if all he is worth is a resist and a heal?
what you all want is going beyond balancing, its moving the odds far too deep into your corner.
PPU's are supporters, its their whole way of life. There is NO way for a PPU to solo anything. Just like you feel that apu's need a ppu strapped to their ass, well the ppu secretly says... thanks god i have this fighter strapped to my back, otherwise all i am good for is for making a nice lightshow.
slaughteruall
28-01-04, 14:19
How in the hell is a PPU ruining a game for everyone who is not a monk? Maybe on your server. But on saturn you will get a PPU and a APU that will go on a killing spree. Oh wait heaven forbid that a PE or a Tank goes instead of a APU. But it does happen quite often also. Hell i have taken my TANK/PE/APU on PK spree's without a PPU and others have also. It happens all the damn time. PPU's are not as important as some ppl think they are. Yes you can kill alot more ppl with a PPU on your ass. But it's just as much fun without one. Just because the shity server you play on erquires a PPU to PK dont speak for every server. Some of us know what is going on and the rest of you dont.
Slaughter
I havent read what pete said after I went to bed, will later, trying
to get some work done even tho i cant seem to stop refreshing
these friggin forums. Frankly I dont care if we increase the PPUs
exp gain by *10 as long as they are nerfed so they dont
completely unbalance a fight.
Originally posted by slaughteruall
blablabla(not even sure hes discussing the same thing the rest are)
Originally posted by slaughteruall
Slaughter -- Monk Saturn
with the exception of ops fights i avoid fighting enemys with there ppu butt buddies most of the time.
i go out pking i know i will only last up till the point where i meet the first PPU(more or less depending on how noobish they are and if i have my Dev).
i used to like dueling in PP but to many ppus think there l33t with there god mode buffs and heal, let em think that, they can stand in the corner on there own and belive that cos i aint playing with them.
taken my duels to neofrag now less ppu interference.
slaughteruall
28-01-04, 14:29
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by slaughteruall
blablabla(not even sure hes discussing the same thing the rest are)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nice you can quote me on something i never said. I dont say blablabla (except this time).
Also nice you can quote my main's name / class / server.
How about answering some of the questions that have been asked? To hard for you to make shit up? Come on Rade.
Slaughter
look im telling you ppl, nerfed ppus = shorter fights... thats just a fact....
and jeesus if you make sd self cast we will see tons of hybrids... no one would want to stay apu or ppu.... it would kill of the pures....
just this one thing called firestorm... i seen 2 casts kill of capped chars... with no sd.... now how fun would those fights be?
Right now you need team work to kill ppl... one debuff rest attack/parashock/dmgboost... or if your trying to be really uber some one tl25 shelter.
Not really needed in most cases...
Originally posted by slaughteruall
Nice you can quote me on something i never said. I dont say blablabla (except this time).
Also nice you can quote my main's name / class / server.
How about answering some of the questions that have been asked? To hard for you to make shit up? Come on Rade.
Slaughter
If you make a point I will reason about it with you but now you
were just ranting how on saturn fighting without a monk is as fun
as fighting with one or wether or not some people bring other
classes instead of APUs. That, in my ears, is "blablabla".
slaughteruall
28-01-04, 14:45
Nice to see that you still avoid the questions that have been asked in this thread. What does not meet up to your normal NERF THE (incert class except PE here) because i cant solo them type of threads?
How about listing some of the things you would liked to see changed about the PPU. And for the love of god none of the shields self cast only bull shit.
Slaughter
EDIT:
[quote]If you make a point I will reason about it with you but now you
were just ranting how on saturn fighting without a monk is as fun
as fighting with one or wether or not some people bring other
classes instead of APUs.[/quote
That was a statement. As in referring no saturn we dont need a PPU to have fun. Also stateing that maybe on your server you do. Not sure dont even know what server you are on. Back when i played on pluto (still do time to time) i never saw a TH raid (i'm FA on pluto) go off without a PPU. Nothing like a ??/37 researcher/pistol spy getting para shocked then a CS shoved up my ass.
Slaughter,
he cant, he see's our point. thats just it. None of the points that you me or any other person has made is being addressed. all the conflicting views on this thread are being ignored.
It sucks because they dont realize how they are hurting the game when they rally for this crap.
thats what sucks the most, people really are blind to our points. Even the ppu who started this thread is wanting the ppu nerfed because a ppu isnt his main anymore. he is willing to crush the class to get his rocks off on an nerf.
Most PPUs are fairly ok. We don't have a problem with fixes.
Fix the Para glue for low level spells (as they should of been).
Fix the target through walls (which is really only APU)
But lay off anything else.
realize that you _CANNOT_ solo a ppu. you and i both know thats what this is all about.
Which is basically what the whole argument boils down to "I can't kill it so I'll fuk it". But the point is while the PPU may not die, once thier team is dead they are totally worthless to the fight and the only other option is to run.
Originally posted by slaughteruall
That was a statement. As in referring no saturn we dont need a PPU to have fun. Also stateing that maybe on your server you do. Not sure dont even know what server you are on. Back when i played on pluto (still do time to time) i never saw a TH raid (i'm FA on pluto) go off without a PPU. Nothing like a ??/37 researcher/pistol spy getting para shocked then a CS shoved up my ass.
I think youve misunderstood me. The ONLY way for me to have
fun is not to have a ppu with me or against me. As soon as
theres a ppu there all fun goes out the window. In OP wars it can
be fun as long as there are an even amount of monks on both
sides.. but should that really be a requirement for a fun war?
And webshock, you dont make points, you never have, you just
shout loud and aimlessly.
Originally posted by slaughteruall
Nice to see that you still avoid the questions that have been asked in this thread. What does not meet up to your normal NERF THE (incert class except PE here) because i cant solo them type of threads?
Thats funny, I almost never start threads, and the last thread I
started about balancing a class was this one (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84977) , a thread about
nerfing PEs... However that thread is a bit out of date, since the
devourer took care of most of the RoLH/Stealth 2 PE setup
problem, before the devourer youd use str heart 2 instead and
have mad hp/resists against everything but poison which was
overpowered. Now that you have to spec alot of poison as well
that setup suffers alot.
As Ive kept saying everywhere, after next patch I think that
parashock will be fine, after that Id just like to see a slow
downtoning of S/D/H by a few percent each patch until we find a
spot where the staying power PPUs have and the staying power
they give to others isnt unbalancing. Preferably combined with
giving other classes roles in OP wars etc other than pure combat
so that those classes can contribute just as much as a monk but
maybe with other means. Mines, hacknet I donno... I also do
agree that PPUs might be too hard to level, and even more so if
their abilities are toned down, and I wouldnt mind one bit to see
their exp gain improved.
i do make very valid points, and as usual you never address them. same argument diffrent day.
Here is what I get out of our conversation
Rade: die ppu u make my pking fun go away
Web: bah ur daft man, you making my main character about as useful as a npc in plaza 1.
rade: so what my friends and i dont like it, we wont address it but until i see no more ppus in the city, i will cry nerf.
Address my points. Unlike you i have diffrent perspectives. I have a capped tank a capped apu a capped ppu a midlevel spy and soon I will be a pistol PE. That way i can try to see things the way you do. Still I dont think i will ever see your point or your reasoning since you choose to ignore all the points i bring up
also how the HELL can you say you dont think leveling a ppu is hard if you have never done so?
I leveled my PPU pure since he was 0/2. Not this level a apu then lom to ppu. I did it the way it was supposed to be done. I can tell you that this is probably the biggest pain in the ass, the most frustrating and the hardest class to level if you do it the way its supposed to be done.
That statement just proves to me that you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to ppu's
you might be better to adapt your skills at op fights, or fights in general as I have met a lot of people who have no problem winning against larger numbers of PPUs (killing or not killing them).
Whats the point of getting more XP if your skills will be crap?
Like I said learn to fight better.
Originally posted by WebShock
Web: bah ur daft man, you making my main character about as useful as a npc in plaza 1.
This is where we crash. Apparently you think slowly reducing PPU
abilities will make you useless. Rational people who dont class-
hopp all day might think otherwise. I want PPUs at a level where
they have the same amount of impact on a battle as any other
class, and where they dont remove the fun from a fight but add
fun instead. And that for some reason you seem to disagree with.
Originally posted by Archeus
you might be better to adapt your skills at op fights, or fights in general as I have met a lot of people who have no problem winning against larger numbers of PPUs (killing or not killing them).
Whats the point of getting more XP if your skills will be crap?
Like I said learn to fight better.
The problem doesnt lie in my abilities, Im pretty confident in them
so spare the cheap puns. The problem lies in that the amount of
monks is as important if not MORE important than the skill of the
people fighting, whereas in a balanced game skill is what
determines the outcome. Sure having a good mix of classes in
your group should also matter when it comes to who wins
because all classes have different abilities, but hey, wait, we dont
have that here either, Monks are superior to all other classes in
combat. Dragging up examples where a PE has killed a monk or
whatever wont change these facts.
Imo remove para and put a 50% nerf on holy heal on other people as with buffs and the ppu is fixed, then you just have to give things to the other classes to compliment it, like the raptor :p
lets start over rade. im trying hard to see why we disagree
please tell me why you think sd should be self cast only. if this isnt what you are saying please tell me what you see is wrong with the ppu that makes is unbalanced or what you think is making the ppu too important.
I'm at the point where im tired of this discussion going towards a bash o thon,
lay out you points, ill lay mine out and lets see if we can find a compromise. I would like to say that if you are unreasonable and fail to see where you are wrong, that will just get me all fired up again and the actual discussion will go to hell.
[edit]
see what i mean, look at the post above. thats bs... you all will never be satisfied. leave the shit alone dammit. heal s/d are the core to a ppu.
how would you like it if i went around making a million threads that say: nerf the cs nerf the paineaser nerf the lib nerf the devourer... you all would lynch me!
Ive never been promoting the selfcast buff idea just fyi. I really
have alot of work to do and even if we did have some epiphany
and suddenly agreed on everything I doubt itd impact anything
KK does, so itll have to wait until another day :p
slaughteruall
28-01-04, 15:25
In OP wars it can
be fun as long as there are an even amount of monks on both
sides.. but should that really be a requirement for a fun war?
It used to be the same with tanks. Monks got a boost or was it simply ppl learned that monks were damn good (hybrid). Ever since then monks get a nerf just about every patch. And another one in the next patch. Us monks are getting VERY sick of it. My first char was a APU in the middle of tank-O-Cron. On oursides it was like this 1 PPU 1 APU and about 20 tanks. You think the APU got any PPU love. Nope because it was tank-O-Cron. That and i was only high enough to use a holy energy halo :lol: . But anyway this whole thread will just turn it back into those days.
Slaughter
EDIT: I have a idea lets make PPU's shelts only available to a APU no tank/spy/PE and use them. Sounds stupid dont it. So does no foriegn cast.
Well, I was PE during the tank'o'cron days but the difference is
that it was still fun. Now its not :(
slaughteruall
28-01-04, 15:29
It was fun because a PE can stand it's own against a tank. But a PE can not kill a capped PPU (well mostly). Things like this you just have to live with.
Slaughter
If a class is overpowered it needs to be nerfed until its vaguely balanced and ppus arent balanced not because of their own invinciblity but the invincibility they bestow upon others as in shelter deflector and holy heal.I dont really have a problem with shelter and deflector as it is but holy heal is just too powerful, you can get or be gotten down to a slither of health and a ppu pops a holy heal on you and your back to full health in a few seconds, now either holy heal needs to get a foreign cast penalty or a just plain reduction in strength.
And the reason you would be lynched for suggesting to nerf pain easers CSs etc is because they arent blatantly over-powered.
Oh yeah and theres the para issue with monks but will hopefully be fixed in the next patch.
Delete button doesnt work.o_O
Originally posted by Rade
Apparently you think slowly reducing PPU
abilities will make you useless. Rational people who dont class-
hopp all day might think otherwise.
exactly the people who actually play a PPU for a long period of time can tell you what is like.
I have met complete muppets who try to PK when they know its hopeless and get frustrated over it as my team kicks the living crap out of them.
I have met experienced players who ignore me and go for my team mates instead, and I have met players who could drop PPUs as well.
The point your failing to understand is that a PPU is nerfed already. Once the team dies, that is it. We can't rez under fire so for all intents and purposes the fight comes to an end. They can extend the life of thier team mates but if the other team is good it won't matter.
Before the rez nerf medicore players could run in and get 3-5 second rezzed back into battle and continue to fight. Now you die, its over.
If you are actually unable to stop a PPU to rez thier friends while under fire...well then there is something seriously wrong with you.
own invinciblity but the invincibility they bestow upon others as in shelter deflector and holy heal
ROFL.. are we even reading the same thread. Someone ealier going "OMG PPUS ARE THE UBAR" because they managed to run to a GR, after thier whole team had been slaughtered by the other side. Didn't make them that invincible did they?
Originally posted by WebShock
[edit]
see what i mean, look at the post above. thats bs... you all will never be satisfied. leave the shit alone dammit. heal s/d are the core to a ppu.
These are my oppionions after playing the game now for over a year and 9 months of that being a pure ppu. Ive played almost every class and the one thing that is always constant is when you see the holy heal pop on you in battle you know your ok for the next short while. A holy heal should heal you up fully when not underfire, not while you have people on you. Para takes all skill out of pvp, cant see how anyone can argue with that.
And if you want to compare it to guns then fine, if a cs suddenly done 2 hit kills to everyone, wouldnt it be nerfed? Holy heal is overpowered.
Just an idea why not make heals instant, ie holy heal gives 75hp (mabey more, mabey less) when capped has a decent rof, that way the person is only invunerable when having it spammed on them making it harder to do in a battle and making anti-buff matter as it will take longer to get back up to full health when allert. However when leveling or in a safe fall back position healing is easy, kinda like a opposite to hl giving life rather with each hit rather than taking it.
Originally posted by Cyphor
These are my oppionions after playing the game now for over a year and 9 months of that being a pure ppu.
I've played pretty much a PPU from the start of Retail. Comparing a PPU to start of NC (or beta for that matter) is apple to oranges. List off the nerfs to the PPU class since then.
Just an idea why not make heals instant, ie holy heal gives 75hp (mabey more, mabey less)
About the most reasonable I've heard so far as an idea. Actually they could make anti-heal work better or faster, or leave it that the holy heal is the same but anti-heal does the reverse.
Or make negative sanctums for APUs. For example, DB sanctum is quite a good spell if your extremly experienced in using it, so how about an anti-heal sanctum, or a debuff sanctums (breaking them up into shields, heal, buffs seperate spells).
Or if your so intent on nerfing PPU's then remove all ability to cast spells from non-monks. It will make them more of a support role.
slaughteruall
28-01-04, 15:44
@Mr.Snow
Read what you quoted me on again plz. You might actually understand what i was saying. As in read past the first sentence. I think everyone else understood.
Slaughter
Sorry my bad deleting that post
Lifewaster
28-01-04, 15:48
Wow the no foreign cast shelter/def is a GREAT idea I think.
Tanks would become the front line fighters again, and APUs would be support instead of frontline so we could stop being monkacron. PEs would benefit the most I guess.
Maybe we could change crahn belts to have a shelter effect same as deflector belts so APU/Spy still have options to wear a low tl def or shelter.
And PPU would be spared casting S/D every 2 seconds in and op fight.
I really cant complain with this.
Originally posted by Archeus
Actually they could make anti-heal work better or faster, or leave it that the holy heal is the same but anti-heal does the reverse.
When i had the raptor tested on me, it gave a counter much like a drug counter that counts down (at the time the raptor was bugged so didnt work too well), but from what I could tell as the counter is on you you cant be healed, perhalps this is the way to go? As long as the effect isnt so long as t make it overpowering it might be one of the best ways to combat the problem.
And the reason i like the idea of insta heals is no longer can a ppu with 5 people around him just put a heal on each and have them all be invincable he will have to chase them make sure they're constantly being healed, putting more skill into it and stopping a team of a apu, ppu being able to solo five other players(the ppu will have to constantly cast on both himself and his teammate underfire, so no longer overpowered, (just have to make sure it was fully runcastable ).
Last time we had a huge discussion on the roles of PPUs, I argued that ANY class in ANY game that is DEDICATED to supporting OTHER characters will ALWAYS be the most important class to have in a fight, and the numbers of support characters dictate who will win big fights usually.
The problem isnt that the PPU is overpowered. The problem is that the PPU is dedicated to support. And people dont like that idea... or at least they dont like support only characters being involved in big wars. If you had two clans fighting a big op fight, and one clan was all tanks and the other all tanks and 2 PEs that ONLY buffed/supported the tanks... the side with the buffing PEs would have an enormous advantage. Same difference.
Think about this- strip down the PPU to do whatever you think a PPU should do. Lets say the PPU can now only cast damageboost, blessed heal, blessed shelter, blessed deflector. And you had a big op fight, and one side had two PPUs, and the other side had none. Would that make a difference in the value of the PPU? Wouldnt the side with the PPU STILL have a huge advantage?
Now perhaps you can argue that the advantage wont be "as big" as it is now. Okay, thats fine- but then my question is this- at what point will the advantage be "small enough"??? How will we know when we reach that point? What determines when the advantage of having a PPU is "just right"???
These are the core issues here. You can discuss possible nerfs to the PPU all you want, but when you get down to it, as long as the PPU is still a viable character, and not nerfed completely to hell... as long as there is a support only character in Neocron, that character will continue to be VERY important in battles.
omg strych... thanks for bringing light to the issue.
@ lifewaster: have u been to the front of a op lately? i know i have been, look at the fang video. it isnt monkocron anymore. you see loads of tanks too. thats a damn good thing.
leave the nerfs alone and make things other classes can use more viable.
Psycho Killa
28-01-04, 17:12
Originally posted by Strych9
when the advantage of having a PPU is "just right"???
When one good ppu doesnt equal 10 to 20 fighters?
Seriously as it is now ppus are
Godly Id like to see them Important but not 100 percent neccesary you guys think that by weakening a tad they will be 100 percent useless you guys are crackheads.
Ppus kill this game (I AM A PPU) Need i really say more?
Honestly almost ALL the ppus in this thread that dont want a nerf have on thing in common. There tradeskill gimps.
Originally posted by Rade
. I want PPUs at a level where
they have the same amount of impact on a battle as any other
class, and where they dont remove the fun from a fight but add
fun instead.
well this is where your wrong... as pure support class will always add more to a team than any single attacker.... it cant be fixed....
soo we face a removal of ppus or just let em be like now....
I dont think kk will remove this class soo in the end all these threads will be useless.....
Psycho Killa
28-01-04, 17:15
Deac dont you think its a bit rediculous that if it was 10 with a ppu vs 20 without that more then likely the 10 will win?
Isnt someonthing extremely wrong when 1 person equals 10?
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
When one good ppu doesnt equal 10 to 20 fighters?
But the PPU doesn't equal 10 to 20 fighters. They can't attack. They can augment the team they are protecting, but once that team is dead they have no effect on the battle.
An example of a 'Nontrades skill gimp' shown eariler showed that while they couldn't die, they couldn't do anything else once thier team was dead.
but in PKs example the team with out the ppu aint gonna have the buffs that would make the other team a lot better, while tank A is getting hammered and aint got no ppu to heal him, tank b is pounding him away while ppu is healing him so tanks As task is pointless
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
When one good ppu doesnt equal 10 to 20 fighters?
Seriously as it is now ppus are You didnt answer the question PK.
You say when a PPU doesnt equal 10 to 20 fighters. So how many fighters then SHOULD a PPU equal? If you say 5... why not 4? Why not 6? Let me know your criteria.
Originally posted by ezza
but in PKs example the team with out the ppu aint gonna have the buffs that would make the other team a lot better, while tank A is getting hammered and aint got no ppu to heal him, tank b is pounding him away while ppu is healing him so tanks As task is pointless So what about the other 9 tanks the PPU has to buff vs the other 19 tanks without buffs?
A single PPU wont have the mana pool to stay on top of buffing and healing 10 runners vs the attacks of 20. Sure the PPU might survive, but his squad of 10 wont make it.
Maybe it would be a better example to say 5 vs 20, I dunno... but 10 runners is a LOT of runners for a single PPU to keep healed/sheltered/deflectors/buffed and keep himself alive. Heck, even vs mobs it can be tricky keeping 10 runners going... and thats when the PPU isnt being directly attacked.
Psycho Killa
28-01-04, 17:35
Thats because there is no real answer.
I cant say what the appropriate number is but honsetly when 1 ppu can buff up one tank and take out an army without a ppu something is wrong.
We just have to SLOWLY lower there importance until we find a happy medium between overpowered and useless.
QuantumDelta
28-01-04, 17:45
.....This, is gonna be long.
Originally posted by JackScratch
The un accounted for factors in this equasion bogle the mine. QD you guess both incorrectly and foolishly.
I don't believe so.
Or at least you maybe an okay PPU but you are by no means noteworthy.
Simply your theorum on PPUs themselves and the reason you believe all people who want them nerfed, want them nerfed for.
Can't be killed?
Far from the truth.
PPUs personal defence is not something I particularly care about.
For All I care they could completely remove my HolyShelter/Deflector/Heal (on self) and just give me ubar runspeed and 100% runcast on all spells.
BUT.
That doesn't balance shit.
PPUs Unbalance PvP in quite an obvious way, insofar as to say that they instantly change class performance levels in combat.
eg;
No PPU;
Tank vs APU - 50% vs 50%.
PE vs Tank - 50% vs 50%.
PE vs APU - 50% vs 50%. (Okay so there needs to be some SLIGHT Tweaking before it's EXACTLY that but it's close enough to friggin count as).
PPU;
Tank vs APU - 25% vs 75%.
PE vs Tank - 35% vs 65%.
PE vs APU - 10% vs 90%.
THIS is the Crutz of the problem.
Also, what makes it EVEN WORSE, because the easiest thing to deploy onto a battle field to kill a PPU ....is wait for it......
AN APU.
Statistically APUs and PPUs should be the Only things allowed ON the battle field. (Spies don't even rate under this system okay? ¬.¬)
Could someone please explain to me where you morons get that my knowledge of how to kill PPUS (all of them) makes me a bad one?
Because you cannot (obviously) see how you effect the course of combat in an UNFAIR Way.
Any *GOOD* PPU should be able to combat evaluate every situation they are in, in seconds, and draw the conclusion as to what is needed to be done and direct their team to do so.
(PPUs SHOULD BE TEAM LEADERS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS, Especially when TeamSpeak/Ventrillo/etc is available because PPUs can afford the time to take overall battle tactics into consideration and relay battle changing instructions, if you cannot do this AS WELL AS keeping your team alive, keeping your team healed, buffed, s/d'd, and the enemy parashocked and db'd AND keeping yourself alive YOU ARE A BAD PPU).
Don't bother answering I know, from an ASSumption.
Obviously, you do not.
You are makeing the assumption that as a PPU, I get killed a lot, and just assume that all PPUs will die as easily and in the same way as I do.
Actually, as usual, you're wrong, read the paragraph above for explanation.
Well thx for the vote of confidance, but if you are just going to assume my arguements, then please DO NOT RESPOND TO MY POSTS.
Hypocrit.
In fact, if you are going to bother with silly things like reading and comprehending what I post, then please add me to your ignore list.
I comprehend what you post just fine thank you, it's on such a low level of cognative function I don't have much trouble with it at all.
Originally posted by Rai Wong
I agree opwar are damn ridiculous when one tank, one ppu takes out like 20 people unhurt. just becuase the other side didn't have a ppu.
In reality if this did happen I would suspect the 20 were not particularly skilled.
It's either a feat of great skill or a fuck up of immeasurable stupidity that turns a battle that's 30vs2 or something similar.
Though PPU+APU vs Gives an automatic advantage, the advantage isn't infinitely stretching.
Not anymore.
Thanks to the already implace but not sufficient S/D Malus when cast on others.
I 100% agree with the selfcast thingie, this would make everyone balanced on the field. I don't think parashock needs to be balanced.
should parashock not need to be removed it would at least need to be brought in line (halo problems).
Self-Cast S/D is really the best and simplest way to sort the problem, period.
In all of the games the ppus are the only healing class, which can actually carry amazing defensive powers, rendering himself and his friends indestrutible.
Correct.
I have a decent ppu of two stars rassilion on uranus, my setup I tell you is crap, and so are my resists, I am a shit ppu but I can still stand agaisnt 4 tanks, and manage to heal and support my mates. (while running around of course not even with buffs I can stand still agaisnt 4 tanks)
Isn't that a bit unfair?
Depends on your point of view, it really does, and your opponents, and your team mate(s).
Originally posted by Varaem
Acutally the 30 non-monks vs 1 ppu is possible, because the ppu just has to keep s/d/heal/healsanc up and run in the middle of the crowd... they'll never hit the monk because they can't target him. And when they do he's behind someone else and they lose their lock. I personally think 4 non-monks vs 1 ppu would do better than 30, just because they won't get in eachother's way as much.
I have seen 20 non-monks vs 1 ppu and the ppu never went below 3/4 health. The non-monks were some of the best PEs, Tanks and Spies on pluto... not THE best, but probably above average. That shouldn't be possible imo..
I mean if those PEs/Spies/Tanks were really any good it shouldn't at least heh
All it could really take was a little coordination and two or three (like you said) would be able to make the kill let alone 20...
Originally posted by Archeus
PPUs die. But assuming for the second you don't. Does all your team have immortality now? When all your team dies, what can you do? Stand there and go "look at me I'm ubar, I can't die!". Fat lot of good that is.
Sadly, true.
Some PPUs are simply PPUs to have Godmode.
Kinda sad really...
I've seen this as well, it has nothing to do with PPU but that the 2 actually have experience in fighting. A recent op war I Was at our side we had 2 ppus and 8 people (plus Rhino+2). Everyone was dropped in seconds, the ppu didn't have time to react to save them. Once everyone was dead they then killed the PPU.
Again depends on the teams.
Also depends on the characters and players skills.
Without a PPU things like that are extremely hard-impossible to do, however.
Originally posted by Varaem
I've seen 10 killed by 2... both sides had a PPU, but the side with 10 really sucked at fighting. Won't mention names or anything. But the side with 2 was PPU/Tank.
Maybe they should give APUs a spell called Holy Anti-Buff Barell. lol. That'd be fun in op fights. All you need is 1 APU and no more buffs ... for anyone...
Heh making APUs still the more needed class than any of the others outside of the PPU itself....
Originally posted by WebShock
All I have to add is:
(2) (thats right), are on the " kill the ppu bandwagon". this bandwagon is no bigger than 5 forum posters.
Sigh.
I really, really hope for any form of personal status you think you hold around here or any respect you might have gained you have not put me on this "bandwagon list", seriously.
People should have learnt by now I do not hold bias and I do not fuck things up.
tell me,, if you take away foreign cast, what the fuck is the point of the ppu's existance?
Heal.
Ressurrection.
Parashock.
DB.
Resist Buffs.
Combat Buffs.
Anti Poison.
Anti Parashock.
Anti Damage Boost.
You realise this list is already LONGER than every other class attenting the same op wars?
PPU's cant kill you in return!
No shit.
If op fights arent fun because there are ppu's there.. fucking quite u whiners.
Constructive comments or no comments at all please.
You take away the foreign cast and you might as well just do away with the PPU.
Sigh.
I think the logic behind the concept is beyond you.
the whole purpose of the ppu is to support, thats right ladies; to foreign cast.
More insults.
More ignorance.
More stupidity.
Why am I always the one to have to shut these people up? I know there are other people on this forum who can think things through logically, so how come they always take a break when someone turns up and starts spouting this bull?
I immensly enjoy op fights the way they are now. I like the way stuff is. Leave it alone!
LoL.
I love the hypocrisy in that comment compared to some of the quotes above.
PPU cant kill anything alone, its the only class that MUST have a team member to level.
If you had said Level effectively, I'd have granted you it.
But level, no, this is a lie of ommision.
I have brought 3 PPUs from /2 to /30 ALONE SOLO in less than A DAY.
So why the hell are you all trying to make it so that the PPU is solo killable?
Who said that?
Our ever so intellectually gifted friend Jack?
I hope Kk doesnt fall for this line of horse shit.
I wish I had a shrug emote...
Always the same fuckin whiners making the same posts about the same thing.
Because it needs to be addressed, and fixed.
If you are unhappy move on. Leave my class alone.
Deal with it.
As I have said before, it's my class as well, I just have an eye for fairness, unlike certain other people I can see around here, which is why I always always, carry my own oppinion as close-to-infallible compared to a lot of those around this forum, people are either too amature in nature to understand, or too biased in nature to submit.
tired of having to change my PPU playing style and set up after ever other patch.
Tell that to the hybrids, who ignored what was wrong with them and became DESTROYED, whiped out GONE, for a LONG time, because they could not accept and deal with the fact that THEY WERE UNBALANCED.
Eventually KK said fuck it and removed them to deal with at a later date.
Want that to happen to PPU?
I sure as hell don't.
Originally posted by Varaem
I think what they mean by no foreign casting is no foreign casting deflector and shelter. They can still cast resist buffs, combat buffs, support buffs, sanctums, and heals.
correct.
Originally posted by Ehyuko
It's not a bad idea except that only apus can do it... imagine, holy antibuff... SANCTUM!
Which means again it's a monk class one that already is heavily needed on the battle field that gets the bonus.
It's a good idea but it's not the right one..
Of course the apu using it is screwed over, but so is everyone within range, the only thing that makes an ok idea and not a good one is that how could ppus survive the minute one of these things goes up? Parashock.... maybe? I dunno, but I like this idea a lot more then holy antibuff barrel. Which is also a fine idea.
Heh, pretty easily actually, parashock the APU get some distance, or parashock every enemy and have everyone kill the APU.
An APU casting this sanctum would be a target to all, instantly...
Edit: Of course the barrel thingy also screws over ppus, perhaps some kind of set status spell is part of the cath sanctum? Shelter/deflector are not affected by anti spells of any kind but a heal is also immediately cancelled?
Maybe but overpowers an already (imo) overpowered spell.
My PPU never used HCS because with it he wouldn't die, period.
Whatever, it certainly would be a funny thing to see, an apu charging through battle trying to get within range of the ppu without a heal, shelter or deflector on him but with the ability to NUKE any ppu in range.
"Yes but no" I don't really like the idea heh
Though DB sanctum already does close to this.
I'm sure ppus have a much more reasonable solution towards making them equal to any other class then I could come up with having only some experince with ppus.
Already stated ;)
Originally posted by WebShock
ok lets say that kk does do away with parashock..
now look whats what next on the line? holy heal... what do you think will come next? dont you all see the trend?
Yes, I do, that's why I named the ONLY CHANGE that has to be made.
As for Parashock.
turn your mouse sensativity on minimum and your windows mouse sensativity on minimum, try playing the game for a while see how fun it is.
these whiners will never be satisfied until the ppu is crushed out of existance.
More ignorance.
you all think you arent having fun? imagine that pure ppuwho spent months leveling (cuz its fuckin impossible to power level a pure ppu from birth) his character.
OUT RIGHT LIES.
My PPU was base PSI 98 in LESS THAN A DAY.
..............I hate amatures.........
Do you think that ppu is having fun when you nullify his utter existance.
Yawn.
I am a PPU.
PPU is/was my main character before I had to retire temporarily.
Leave shelter deflector alone. its fine.
dont you see the unbalance trend? nothing will ever be enough. nothing. if they get this nerf i garantee you they will move on to the next thing they arent arsed to overcome.
Paranoid.
Narrow minded.
I will never allow someone to overly nerf the PPU.
I want this game to succeed and finalising balance is the only way to shut people up.
THEREFORE, As I have pledged before I will see it done.
Once it is done, the moaners can seriously go to god damn hell because they will not get a word in EDGEWAYS while I am around and that is primarily directed at you rade Okay?
Post will be longer than one topic because I broke the character count limit, appologies mods but there is nothing I can do about that.
QuantumDelta
28-01-04, 17:47
Originally posted by deac
how would a thing that kills us faster make it less stressfull to play a ppu?
It was a consequential comment "If this happens could we please make it so that they are less stressful to play?"
Originally posted by WebShock
i can answer that deac.,... its the simplton mind of thought that ignorant people who never play as a ppu have.
Hypocrit.
Simpletons? heh, wonderful term you found there guess what make sure you understand someones comments before trying to slander them.
its the elitist attitude of being able to own all minus a ppu that makes them frustrated.
I can "pwn" most PPUs 1vs1 with my PE.
Providing they don't Parashock.
Yawneth.
Get a clue.
if you arent having fun bcuz the other team has better ppu's here what you... get better ppus!
This doesn't prove the imbalance at all in one single sentence mind o_O
No seriously, how stupid can you be? o_O
or better get fighters that arent noobs and can actually kill ppu's.Certain skill levels of PPUs are quite litterally unkillable.
I myself have walked from the centre of an op (shurkan) whilst under fire/parashocked (came up from the UG) while NOT BUFFED originally, from 30 or so people MAINLY MONKS and made it all the way to the Genrep.
I would have stuck around in a situation like that normally to try to rezz people, but since EVERYONE was dead (no one told the two of us in the UG that there was a fight upstairs)APU Died instantly.
Later that fight I was HABed IN SEQUENCE (5 HABs in a row, chain cast so as to make it difficult for me to defend myself) and damage boosted while under fire from a PE and a Tank (coordinated on teamspeak I would assume) and still survived.
I am by no means the amature you seem to be coming across as.
sounds like these guys are in clans that suck so bad in fighting that their only option is to mold the game to their liking.
Ignorant.
:rolleyes:
Point proved.
i really wish kk wouldnt bend over backwards as much as they did. this nerf shit is the biggest exploit of the game imo
Typically KK do what they believe is correct they don't give a flyin feck what we say _UNLESS WHAT WE SAY IS REASONED AND CORRECT_
Ultimately it will be up to them to decide what will happen.
Originally posted by KramerTheWeird
you ever consider that ppu's make it so that an individual's skill is not as important as the ppu's own skill? Fighters can sure struggle in op fights with a mediocre PPU, whereas low skilled fighters with highly skilled ppu's just sit there and act like a turret, missing half their shots but still winning :rolleyes:
Sadly, this is also a source of great annoyance to me.
Whilst I play PPU I realise that I have a huge weight in terms of the course of the battle(s), far more than I ever could have as a PE, or a Tank, or a Spy.
Me a person of the SAME SKILL LEVEL AS MYSELF is more effective by a factor of 10, or even larger, because I simply change class.
THATS unbalanced.
Originally posted by phunqe
I think like... err... this is the way it's supposed to be??
Remember who you are talking to, if you don't know Pete is one of the best PPUs on Pluto.
most of us agree whilst the PPU has effectively zero attack he should have high defence.
If PPUs were killable by any other class then you could delete the whole class alltogether. There is no way you could make PPUs killable by any other class without fucking up the game balance so bad you'd had to start all over again with the class design.
Again you missed the point, no one wants to nerf PPU defence.
Antibuffs for other classes? Well, then they would be unbalanced against other classes as well, since shelters and deflectors would then need a boost or someother anti anti-buffage stuff or whatever (i.e spy antibuffing a PE, or vice versa).
Droners will soon be getting Anti-Heal Drones.
You will also be smart to watch for more such examples from KK.
Shelter/deflector piercing weapons? Well, then they would be unbalanced against other classes as well...
No one, again, mentioned this, we were talking about other methods with which to balance the PPU.
etc, etc et al...
don't address my points then (....hmm wonder if he knows not to try it on with me :p - forgive me, I'm in a "who else wants some!?" kinda mood thanks to the moron's from earlier in this reply).
Originally posted by SypH
PPus not overpowered some people say? I remember a big op fight at Jeriko not so long ago when ND were still in TG. TT and CM won the op fight and at the end there was one TG PPU still on the field, he was from AESN I think (I remember it cause I was there getting screenshots [which I still have] and both TG and TT were accusing me of spying lol). I watched as he was chased by at least 20 people, mostly tanks and monks. He was hit by CS and Mal fire, and several HL and toxic beams. On top of that he was getting paraspammed. Through all this he still managed to make it from near the mutant trap to the GR. That is overpowered! I was told that the guy was an excellent PPU (cant remember his name for the life of me) but despite that no one player should be able to survive that. I wouldn't personally call THAT overpowered, if he could bring his friends back to life while doing this THAT would be overpowered but since he couldn't/can't it's not really all that much of an issue.
His spells lost condition and his armour got wankered believe me when I say I've spent a lot of money on monk armour....
....................a lot............
Originally posted by Archeus
He didn't die.. but did you notice he was running for the genrep.
That means his friends were probably dead and at that point he is totally useless in the op war. A PPU who runs away while leaving thier team there is hardly a good PPU.
The fact he ran away proves this. Big deal so you couldn't kill him.
* Btw, a PPU who can't die is not a good PPU IMHO. A PPU who can keep a whole team alive is a good PPU.
Correct, sadly I've been accused of this a few times because I've turned up to a fight late and simply had nothing but enemies standing.
....Sigh.
Originally posted by slaughteruall
Thats amazing my PE killed a TG PPU in TH just the other day. Just becuase he was stupid and never put up a def and tried to run from me. I have killed PPU's on my APU/PE/Tank. The damn good one's you cant kill one on one no matter what class you are.
i've killed good PPUs, plenty of times on my PE, I've killed PPU/APU TEAMs on my PE.
I've killed PPU/APU/Tank/PE TEAMS (and they had support) on my PE.
However on my PPU I don't die....period (Problem mentioned above with the "turning up late" thing).
As it should be.
However it does get a little stupid when 30 people can't kill me and I'm their only target (though I got a few pats on the back for it).
Can anyone say tank-O-cron or PE-o-cron all over again.
Why?
Obviously you're not thinking this through please read the performance percentages on likelihood of winning a fight with/without PPU.
THE CLASSES IN NEOCRON HAVE BEEN ALL BALANCED FOR ONE ON ONE FIGHTING IN A DUEL SITUATION.
THIS MEANS THAT WHEN PPU BUFFS ARE ADDED INTO THE EQUATION THE CLASSES WITH MORE FIREPOWER BECOME MUCH MUCH MORE IN THE ADVANTAGEOUS POSITION.
You do something like that and there will be no monks at all. No point in playing a APU who will die first every time.
Only if they are stupid/skillless/have no situational awareness.
No point in playing a PPU who really can't do shit.
LIES See list above for PPU Reasons for being in a fight without team S/D.
Might as well turn everymonk into a hybrid. Oh wait with everyone bitching about the GOOD hybrids they've been nerfed badly.
Because, Kiddo.
I don't know if you were around at the time since you're regi date is a little .....young.
but the BEST Hybrids had PPU Defence and Close-To-Current APU Offence.
If you cannot see the problem with this PLEASE LEAVE THIS FORUM NOW and do not come back until you do.
Remember you people already bitched and got APU's range nerfed.
The APU Range nerf was supported by a rather large APU Forum Figure (Shadow Dancer/Arcadius), this guy is a great APU and to quote him "APU Range was stupid I mean you had sniper rifle Spies being sniped back by holy lightning APUs."
Hence now we even have to go further into the OP to be usefull.
I see you lack the skill to setup a decently resistant character on your own, and that you also lack the ability to do anything without a PPU strapped to your ass.
This is your lacking, not our own.
Ok your either on crack or your fighting 0/2 tanks. NO PPU can stand up to 4 tanks without buffs. Incase you dont know buffs are primaries AND Shilds.
Yawn.
My PPUs done it.
Fuck, my PPU has stood up to a few APUs++ without S/D (Mentioned earlier) available to me at the time.
Like it matters you remove foreign casting of Shelter and deflector might as well remove the entire monk class from the game. Just what PPU's want to do switch out primaries from there belt and rezz ppl over and over.
If the PPU ain't good enough to keep 'em alive that's all he deserves to be doin, me? I'll be just fine.
Not at all screwed over remember NO FOREIGN CAST SHIELDS. Means the APU would NEVER have a shelter or deflector
Seriously, are you thick or what?
Nothing but Self-Cast S/D.
This means that other APUs will be just as vulnerable and will fall over quickly if put under heavy fire.
Tanks will be fairly vulnerable and be likely to die before the APU does.
PEs will be fairly well protected but not be able to output anywhere near the amount of damage.
PLEASE GET A CLUE.
Do some fucking dueling without buffs as an APU you will (if you have ANY SKILL) find that against most opponents you have a fair chance of beating them in their natural state. (Meaning PE Selfbuff/Tank selfbuff/etc).
This is because THE GAME IS BALANCED ON THE BASIS OF ONE ON ONE COMBAT DUELING THESE DAYS.
Part of this might be my own fault, fuck knows but I know this game like the back of my friggin hand and I know what I am doing when I make suggestions MINORS like you need to think more before you even contemplate opening your mouth vs one of my comments. PERIOD.
Sounds egotistical?
I've proved my points enough times for people to realise that they need not try to tell me I am wrong.
Most of the Vet's know this, if they have a difference of oppinion with me the reason it out with facts and experience which you have displayed neither of.
Also lets think about this. Can you imagine MC5 without PPU buffs? Or have you forum trolls even been to MC5? I imagine not since your always on the forum posting about PPU NERFS. Get some skill and think about things before you post.
Haha.
Idiot.
You're talking to a guy who's soloed MC5 as a PE, who's soloed MC5 as a PPU, and who's gotten close to soloing MC5 with a Tank.
WITHOUT EXPLOITS.
Forum Troll?
LoL.
You should look some of these names up and ask around about them before you start arguing with them kiddo.
There is only a few people that have posted in this thread that even have a clue what they are talking about. Two of them are webshock and jackscratch. Everyone else has NO IDEA what is happening.
............................I wont, I just wont.
I'll get banned if I do.
Moving on;
Sorry to do this to you simon.
Originally posted by Archeus
Why don't you remove armor while your at it?
That wasn't welcome, warrented nor valid.
Please try again.
They have long since stopped being a deciding factor in Op wars.
Lies.
Heck even the example thrown earlier points out the PPU couldn't get them to win (despite being ubar), before it would be 3-5 second rez time and people fighting again.
I do agree that the rez nerf adjusted the field of play somewhat and I still believe the rez nerf itself was VERY OVERDONE.
However, I am looking for a better way to do it.
It is my hope that with Self-cast S/D only Rez time could be reduced one again.
25 seconds to use one thing is stupid.
Imagine - 25 seconds is longer than bomb disarm times in Counter Strike.
25 seconds is longer than flag cap time in Tribes2 if the player is skilled enough.
25 seconds is longer than spawn capture points in battlefield.
25 seconds is longer than propaganda centre/palace(...?)/strategy centre construction time in CnC:Generals.
Close to HALF A MINUTE rezz time.
Stupidly high.
HOWEVER with Self-cast SD there would be no reason to have a rez time so high.
The fact you are unable to see this means you need to go practise some more.
Maybe true for him, but far from it for myself.
Unless I am missing something, APUs have horrible defenses and thier spells are range nerfed.
Talk to Shadow Dancer about that.
Which means the APU will drop in seconds, long before they can do any serious damage.
This is only if they;
A) Are tactically retarded.
B) Have a really shitty PPU.
C) Are massively out numbered.
D) Are isolated and victimised.
They only become really viable characters when teamed. You want to remove that.
Again.
Ask Shadow Dancer NOT VALID COMMENT.
Should be last post up next.
1 tank/ppu team might be able to kill 5-10 tanks BUT they sure as hell wont be able to take out 10 apus.....
all you need is one or two apus to chain debuff the ppu and he would have to keep himself alive 100% of the time....
throw in one apu to chain poison the ppu and he would have to start healing himself nonestop too....
and pk your talking about ideal situations... one ppu will have hard time keeping 10 guys with sd....
im not saying its impossible i done 2vs10 fights and won kinda easy but... I really see that op fights should include ppus, it used to be silly with the fast rezz... but right now op fights work kinda well....... ppus help a lot but its not the end all solution.
a shitty ppu doesnt matter that much to a team anymore but a good one that can target heals in midd combat is worth gold. just like it should be....
The bottow line is that ppus bring deapth to op fights and I like that... some ppl dont... guess its a matter of taste...
If kk would make a poll about ppus to be or not to be im sure the ppu side would win.
QuantumDelta
28-01-04, 17:48
Originally posted by WebShock
Did you bother to read my reply at all?
Oh great, Hello again you.
Open your mind a bit (since you have the bandwagon tunnel vision) and imagine yourself as a ppu
Yawn.
Several of us on this fictional "band wagon" of yours ARE and are VERY GOOD ones at that.
what purpose would you have at all besides running around healing everyone since you cant Shelter/Deflect
(BTW there already is a nerf trend happening where the same whiners want holy heal nerfed)
Yawn.
I already listed, read up.
I'm getting tired of your foundationless and repetative arguments you are going to have to do far beter than that.
Tell me what purpose a PPU will pose if he cant shelter deflect or heal...
I'll tell you, as a capped PPU with a lot of OP war experience, thats all I do. Heal SD. Resist buffs (PSI 3 ? HC3) are not given at all by the ppu once the shit hits the fan and the fighting begins.
You get protection and heal. Why no resist? Because its usually 1 ppu per 3 characters. If you want to keep your squad alive you dont have time to dish out the whole god mode package (as you all like to refer to it)
Yawn.
Old news.
Low level PPUing too.
Why on earth would you want to make a supprt character self cast only??? think about it for the love of all thats reasonable.
simple, it fixes the imbalance it causes, and it's the only way to do so.
o PPU's cant attack (and if you think a soul cluster will help u in OP wars u are on crack, SC is nothing but a mere distraction and if one kills you, you suck lol)
I've seen/used them effectively against groups of four or so.
Needs to be isolated and away from other PPUs I was generally messing around with them but given a little time and enough casts that is F-All the other team can do providing there's no PPU Present.
lol, unless you're a shit PPU.
o PPU's _MUST_ fight in a team if he/she wants to XP.
Again, Lies.
o PPU's have god mode (BTW isnt really god mode unless you are near cap and know how to use a ppu) because they have NO offense.
Uhuh, pretty much the way it should be I really see no problem here.
Think about it. what purpose does a ppu have if you take away a major support role he has.
You don't take away his major support role.
LOL, I can't believe you don't know what the most important PPU spell in the game is.
Not to mention that if you make SD self cast only and your whole purpose are sanctums and running around like a mad man with a holy heal pulled out it gets reeeeeeeally boring.
Puhleaze.
Lets not forget that the same whiners are rallying for a heal nerf. You all are getting way to unreasonable
wont see me bend to it if this gets implemented.
I blame KK. They got so good at responding to whiners that the said players find it easier to whine for a nerf than to actually acquire new tactics to overcome the tough challenge called a capped ppu
clueless.
You think OP wars are to short now? Imagine a 2 minute zerg since there will be NO buffs to keep a fighter resistant.
Then you, your friends, your clan, your allies, and everyone you know have pathetic resist setups.
pathetic.
You heard me, one of the people who have most experience with resists in this entire community just called you pathetic at them.
And I wont be taking appeals until you retract half of this.
then the outcome of a fight will go to the people with the larger force.
It already goes to the side with the larger force of PPUs, the larger force of numbers doesn't particularly matter just APUs and PPUs primarily PPUs.
This will create Nothing but more cries for nerfs then.
Can you all just stfu and learn to play the game? No PPU is unkillable _NONE_
I am.
even eledhbrandt, one of the best PPU's on saturn bites the dust once in a while. That's when he confronts a force who can actually work as a team.
Then he isn't good enough.
The whole point of this game.
Yup, I noticed, PPUs back people up and people shoot other people.
The whole point of this game.
Revoling around my character that means I AM ALWAYS the one who has to do all the work if I'm on that character makes me NOT want to play that character.
If you want to be top dog at something, go play cs rtcw or UT.
http://81.5.181.199/cs-stats16link/
=][= Naruto =][=.
;)
You want to see some of the rest of my career?
Like the world #2 at FreeSpace2?
Or world #2 at gaming in GENERAL in '98? (Twix Games Player of the year competition).
Don't try to compete with me you just can't.
I will be better at any game you ever play before I even touch it.
LEAVE THE PPU's alone!
No.
Originally posted by slaughteruall
Why dont you read what i said above that quote. Wait i will give it to you dont want you to get that wrong also.
That was a reply to THIS quote.
Hey look archeus got it right.
It seems templars are less skilled than even Vett looked down on them for.
@shardl0r Can you please read the entire post you are trying to criticise it might make you come off more inteligent. Also do you even have a PPU or even a APU? Or are you one of those ppl that dont play this class but want it nerfed?
Slaughter
Before anyone askes I have an APU as well and know just fine how they work.
I'm going to skip a set (almost page) worth of posts here because it simply became a flame/bitch fight.
Originally posted by WebShock
please tell me why you think sd should be self cast only. if this isnt what you are saying please tell me what you see is wrong with the ppu that makes is unbalanced or what you think is making the ppu too important.
lay out you points, ill lay mine out and lets see if we can find a compromise. I would like to say that if you are unreasonable and fail to see where you are wrong, that will just get me all fired up again and the actual discussion will go to hell.
I have laid out my points, explained perfectly the only logical and correct reason why Self Cast SD is the ONLY way to go.
Thou shalt read my post.
If Thou carest for a more detailed post please search the forum for a rather LONG PPU discussion that was previously stickied in which I gave FULL and EXTREMELY Detailed explanations as to why Self-Cast S/D = The only way to work this out properly.
Of course this does these days come with the condition that Rezz is somewhat unnerfed (8-9seconds or better).
[edit]
see what i mean, look at the post above. thats bs... you all will never be satisfied. leave the shit alone dammit. heal s/d are the core to a ppu.
how would you like it if i went around making a million threads that say: nerf the cs nerf the paineaser nerf the lib nerf the devourer... you all would lynch me!
Because you are saying it out of spite, for no real reason.
IF You could come up with a REASONED AND LOGICAL explanation as to why any weapon should be nerfed or boosted I would listen to you and give you my honest oppinion (well sometimes when people talk to me like that I tell white lies like "it's ok..." cough) and converse with you as to whether or not this idea should be recommended or not to the general public.
I DO NOT BACK IDEAS THAT ARE NOT COMPLETELY AND THOURUGHLY THOUGHT THROUGH AND WORK ACHIEVING THEIR GOALS PROVIDING THEIR GOALS ARE REASONABLE.
....To make things clear.
Originally posted by slaughteruall
It used to be the same with tanks. Monks got a boost or was it simply ppl learned that monks were damn good (hybrid).
A combination thereof.
No one power leveled monks in the old days because a) they didn't know how b) they didn't have the insentive.
Therefore the uber hybrids only really started to emerge once we got to UK/US Retail.
The problem was only really addressed around patch 165 and then dealt with MUCH MUCH Later.
It was something KK could not easily have foreseen considering how retarded the old skool community was in terms of;
Resists,
Specialisation,
Tactics.
Ever since then monks get a nerf just about every patch.
Lie.
There have been several monk BOOSTS while hybrids have been nerfed.
PPUs are better now then they were back then, by a long way, with one exception;rezz.
APUs are SEVERAL BILLION times better than they were back then (APUs previously COULD NOT FUNCTION as they had LOW attack and LOW defence).
And another one in the next patch. Us monks are getting VERY sick of it.
What nerf?
There is no monk nerf o_O
Hybrids are getting unfucked.
Reqs on spells are changing.
I have been told Specialisation required to operate at cap/close to cap levels are still reachable for pure classes but no longer even imaginable for hybrids.
My first char was a APU in the middle of tank-O-Cron. On oursides it was like this 1 PPU 1 APU and about 20 tanks. You think the APU got any PPU love.
APUs did not exist particularly back in the REAL Tank-o-cron from your forum reg date I laugh at you thinking you were even around then.
If APU/PPU was viable this was late in the neocron timeline and you had missed a lot of history lessons.
Because, simply put.
APUs were not viable.
Hybrids out shone PPUs in every way except holy heal.
Nope because it was tank-O-Cron. That and i was only high enough to use a holy energy halo :lol: . But anyway this whole thread will just turn it back into those days.
I do not believe you were around at the correct time period in neocron to be talking about this topic.
Please state the patch level at which you started.
EDIT: I have a idea lets make PPU's shelts only available to a APU no tank/spy/PE and use them. Sounds stupid dont it. So does no foriegn cast.
Moronic and unthought out points of views, suggestions and generally pathetic ideas are not something I find even remotely worth posting as they prove nothing.
Please, not while professionals are around kiddo.
Originally posted by slaughteruall
It was fun because a PE can stand it's own against a tank. But a PE can not kill a capped PPU (well mostly). Things like this you just have to live with.
Slaughter
No, they could not, at the time, once Liberator was originally nerfed PEs, ALL PEs were fucked in the ass side ways with CS.
Originally posted by Mr_Snow
If a class is overpowered it needs to be nerfed until its vaguely balanced and ppus arent balanced not because of their own invinciblity but the invincibility they bestow upon others as in shelter deflector and holy heal.
It seems to be rare we come close to agreeing on things these days snow but this is one I'll back you on.
I dont really have a problem with shelter and deflector as it is but holy heal is just too powerful, you can get or be gotten down to a slither of health and a ppu pops a holy heal on you and your back to full health in a few seconds, now either holy heal needs to get a foreign cast penalty or a just plain reduction in strength.
It's really one of those "one or the other" things.
I personally prefered the S/D removal because it balances the problems it creates in the APU vs PE vs Tank vs Spy department.
Though heal is technically viable if all you want to nerf is the PPU.
I doubt I'll ever support a heal nerf over a S/D Self-cast "nerf".
And the reason you would be lynched for suggesting to nerf pain easers CSs etc is because they arent blatantly over-powered.
Oh yeah and theres the para issue with monks but will hopefully be fixed in the next patch.
took the words right out of my mouth.
Originally posted by Archeus
exactly the people who actually play a PPU for a long period of time can tell you what is like.
I have met complete muppets who try to PK when they know its hopeless and get frustrated over it as my team kicks the living crap out of them.
I have met experienced players who ignore me and go for my team mates instead, and I have met players who could drop PPUs as well.
One of my more well known anti-PPU Team tactics in there, though that's probably because it's gobsmackingly obvious.
But it's the best way to fight those fights, especially now rezz is nerfed.
The point your failing to understand is that a PPU is nerfed already. Once the team dies, that is it. We can't rez under fire so for all intents and purposes the fight comes to an end.
As I have said I would prefer the rezz nerf to be removed when this change comes in, because UNLIKE the rezz nerf this change FIXES NON-False ISSUES.
They can extend the life of thier team mates but if the other team is good it won't matter.
Correct.
Before the rez nerf medicore players could run in and get 3-5 second rezzed back into battle and continue to fight. Now you die, its over.
Yes, that's what KK wanted, exactly what they wanted actually, sadly the problem is they could not see where the REAL problems lay.
If you are actually unable to stop a PPU to rez thier friends while under fire...well then there is something seriously wrong with you.
Depends on your class, if you're a spy I will let you get away with not being able to do so, but EVERY OTHER CLASS in the game has ZERO in terms of excuses for this even One on One right now.
ROFL.. are we even reading the same thread. Someone ealier going "OMG PPUS ARE THE UBAR" because they managed to run to a GR, after thier whole team had been slaughtered by the other side. Didn't make them that invincible did they?
LOL are we even reading the same thread. Someone earlier going "OMG PPUS ARE THE UBAR" because the managed to run to a GR, after their whole team had been slaughtered by the other side. Didn't get them called a BAD PPU did it?
By someone who just made this comment? o_O
PK Handled the rest of the comments.
I personally couldn't care less how much sway a PPU had in a battle so long as it doesn't fuck up the other classes performances in comparison to eachother and that's the truth.
As for bringing them down a peg or two in terms of actual influence and making the FIGHTERS not the SUPPORTERS more important --- it's a bonus.
with 300 characters to spare o_O
And without disjointing anyone's quotes from their own posts :)
You say "happy medium"... that is as phony an idea as can possibly exist.
Right now there is a happy medium for plenty of players out there. So any changes you be closer to YOUR happy medium and further away from theirs.
And why does everyone insist on always talking about team without ANY PPUs vs a team with PPUs?
You know, no matter HOW MUCH the PPU is nerfed, like I said... a team WITHOUT a SINGLE support char will ALWAYS have an advantage over a team WITH support characters.
Yeah, remove these PPUs and all their spells, too. Increase healing power of medkits, so the players don't have to wait half an hour to be back on full health. PEs can keep their stealth as they will suffer now from having no shields and heal anymore, hybrids are down the drain (long live the APUs!) and the tanks have an easy play now (together with some evil sniper/droner spies). Hurray!
PS: How to remove PPUs? Only good way is to remove their spells ... or: Making these spells all selfcast (or remove them). That will lead to a nice tradeskiller class with good self-protection (and we don't have tons of PEs whining here on the forums).
PPS: Strych9 said it all. You can twitch and bend the PPUs how you want it, but the problem will always stay the same unless you remove the PPUs completely. And sorry for trolling around, but this whole PPU discussion becomes more and more ridiculous.
QuantumDelta
28-01-04, 17:54
Originally posted by Spex
Yeah, remove these PPUs and all their spells, too. Increase healing power of medkits, so the players don't have to wait half an hour to be back on full health. PEs can keep their stealth as they will suffer now from having no shields and heal anymore, hybrids are down the drain (long live the APUs!) and the tanks have an easy play now (together with some evil sniper/droner spies). Hurray!
PS: How to remove PPUs? Only good way is to remove their spells ... or: Making these spells all selfcast (or remove them). That will lead to a nice tradeskiller class with good self-protection (and we don't have tons of PEs whining here on the forums).
PPS: Strych9 said it all. You can twitch and bend the PPUs how you want it, but the problem will always stay the same unless you remove the PPUs completely. And sorry for trolling around, but this whole PPU discussion becomes more and more ridiculous. can't......stop....................idiot..............flood............................. must.... find way.....to ....... stop morons.....or.......educate..... or something god help me i'm gonna crack if anymore of these ignorant shits post uninformed crap like this.
edit;
no one is going to bother reading my 43000 character piece of art...are they o_O
As much as I like PPUs, I dont think the PvP community will ever be happy until they are gone, and all classes must rely on medkits. PEs will hate that, but everyone overall would by happy.
Any pure support class will always sway the battle in ways that piss off those without that support class supportingt them.
Sadly, removal of PPU spells seems the only answer really. I cant see how people will be happy otherwise.
QD you arent even worth my reply since i have solidly stated the facts and pleaded my case and most of your replies are...
no... clueless.... cuz i can...
gimme a fuckin break. u pose no argument at all.. not even worth the energy to reply
slaughteruall
28-01-04, 17:59
@QD
More insults.
More ignorance.
More stupidity
If this is what your goign to post PLZ dotn post here give us reasons. I saw this and decided that i might as well ignore you. I still need to go back and read the rest o your post's to decide if i am or not.
Anyone can read anyone post/sentence adn take it out of proportions and flame and things. Please post worth while things
Slaughter
im off 2 minds regarding PPUs, when i go out looking for fights i hate it when enemy comes at me with PPU cos its crap i want a good fight, fighter class v fighter class, even 2xfighter class v fighter class.
but then on the other hand in op wars, when i have i want good ppus like Rasp and decypher in my clan being there to buff my ass.
aint got PPU so i cant really comment from that side of things but the thing that really inbalances things from what is see is the holy heal.
just cos ppus hand out the buffs to the fighters doesnt necceceraly mean that PPUs should be god like
anyway there ya go, flame away
I know theres bad spelling there but cant be botherd to correct it.
Originally posted by Strych9
As much as I like PPUs, I dont think the PvP community will ever be happy until they are gone, and all classes must rely on medkits. PEs will hate that, but everyone overall would by happy.
Any pure support class will always sway the battle in ways that piss off those without that support class supportingt them.
Sadly, removal of PPU spells seems the only answer really. I cant see how people will be happy otherwise.
Thats funny because more or less ALL mmorpgs and muds
have "support" classes and they all manage to balance it better
than this clusterfuck that is PPUs.
QuantumDelta
28-01-04, 18:01
Originally posted by WebShock
QD you arent even worth my reply since i have solidly stated the facts and pleaded my case and most of your replies are...
no... clueless.... cuz i can...
gimme a fuckin break. u pose no argument at all.. not even worth the energy to reply Facts?
I saw no facts from you.
Not one single fact.
Besides.
Most Good PPUs don't get soloed by MELEE TANKS when they're the melee tanks are alone and the PPU has a APU and two Spies for team mates.
Shock.
Puhleaze.
If you're not going to address the points made piss off.
Because I highly doubt you can reason better than those points made more or less on the fly.
Edit;
Slaughter, I replied to each comment in kind as to the form in which it was made.
If it warrented nothing but a glib remark, that's all it got.
However if you guys wish to make a DECENT REASONED AND LOGICAL Rebuttle on why there should be non-self-cast S/D please go ahead, I have not seen one thus far.
Though I have seen one or two mildly thought out attempts.
And for the record, if heals are untouched, I could see the benefit in non-foreign cast S/D. I am for it.
Ok i'll put my point like this, I would be perfectly happy if all PPUs were totally invincible unless they were rezzing, and they could only selfcast shelter/deflector. This would generally be more balanced than the PPU's current state.
There, thats your argument ("I can't kill a PPU so i'm going to nerf them") down the drain.
PPUs should remain as invincible as they are now.
The ability of the PPU to shield other people should be removed.
This also balanced PE's, as their shields actually count for something in op wars.
People can no longer just turret and rely on a PPU to keep them alive. It means you have to use tactics and strategy to win.
I have a PPU, she's my main character. If anyone is disagreeing with the statement:
The PPU factor decides an Op war. PPU factor is defined by number and skill of the PPUs.
: then they are wrong. The higher skill op wars are all about the ability of that sides PPUs. I know this, because every so often, some noobs will join the elite and this seems to have almost no effect on outcome of the battle (assuming they don't do something soft like run into the op unbuffed e.c.t).
We could have the best tank player ever, fighting someone who's just finished capping strength - you shouldn't even have to question the outcome. But no, if the new tank's ppu is better, the high skilled tank gets reamed. SD + HH = win.
I am honestly so fed up of not being able to play any other class (because a PPU is ALWAYS needed) at this moment in time I wouldn't care if they eliminated it from the game.
QuantumDelta
28-01-04, 18:16
Shardl0r though I think you're catching onto the point with the selfcast S/D, you didn't quite see the magic :)
Check Strychs thread because I can't be bothered copy pasting :p
because you dont see any facts from me doesnt mean that i didnt set them out there.
because you dont agree doesnt mean you are right
most of all because you supposedly have a capped ppu doesnt mean you are an authority. neither am i. i simply am telling the community what my view on this is.
most of all im not even going to respond to you because you fail to see that almost every one of your replies was biased although you are self proclaimed as unbiased
most of all i find you to be the biggest elitist who always detiriorates all discussions about this issue into nothing more than flames. i see what you think as a fact and wholeheartedly disagree with them all. i dont even think you have a ppu. if you did, you would know that you just cant get to 98 base psi in one day without some sort of exploit. so ill leave it at that.
i think u are jus there to stir shit up, and yes my friend, you are indeed the bandwagon headmaster. no more replies are warranted from me as i have said all i have to say and anything more will just be me replying to your stupidity. i just wont lower myself to your childish attitude.
kthxcubye
say what u want man, i wont post any further. my points have been laid out, the rest is up to kk.
Psycho Killa
28-01-04, 18:20
Why would I try to remove my main character or nerf my main character into oblivion? Honestly why?
All I want is some semblence of balance a small tweaking of a ppus abilities. Please dont tell me im the only ppu out there who can do insane godlike things because I have run across plenty in my day who are near my skill and keep teams alive well.
Deac I dont wanna remove ppus i want them to be slightly less neccesary then they already are.
I would 100 percent like it better if shelter deflector and heal got a slight nerf then ALL THIS SHIT thats going to be added like drones debuffing heal ITS GOING TO MAKE ME QUIT MY PPU Being a ppu is stressful enough if we dont accept that where overpowered kk will keep adding more shit that makes us go crazy and ill just fucking delete my ppu forever. I got to much shit to worry about in a fight now i gotta worry about fucking drones and god knows what other tools come doy.
Honestly when all the non ppus complaing about ppus imbalance and half the ppus complaing about there imbalance ISNT THERE SOMETHING HORRIBLY FUCKING WRONG?
People DONT LIKE TO NERF THEMSELVES. I dont enjoy asking for tweaks to my character to make them lesser then they are but they are neccesary or kk will nerf ppus like the old hybrids no questions asked.
Im not trying to nerf or remove ppus. IM TRYING TO SAVE THEM!
QuantumDelta
28-01-04, 18:23
Originally posted by WebShock
because you dont see any facts from me doesnt mean that i didnt set them out there.
because you dont agree doesnt mean you are right
most of all because you supposedly have a capped ppu doesnt mean you are an authority. neither am i. i simply am telling the community what my view on this is.
Then please, visit strychs thread.
most of all im not even going to respond to you because you fail to see that almost every one of your replies was biased although you are self proclaimed as unbiased
hehe really? nicely said ask anyone who =SSC= Kenshin was on Uranus.
most of all i find you to be the biggest elitist who always detiriorates all discussions about this issue into nothing more than flames. That depends entirely on the people debating.
Ask Scikar or several other vets around here, I will typically debate in a very civilised and social way if the person I am dealing with is not foaming at the mouth and/or completely retarded.
i see what you think as a fact and wholeheartedly disagree with them all.
i dont even think you have a ppu. if you did, you would know that you just cant get to 98 base psi in one day without some sort of exploit. so ill leave it at that.
LOL :)
Kenshin and Saitoh Hajime (PPU and APU respectively) spent most of their time in caves from the point which Kenshin could use blessed heal onwards (tbh we coulda gone there earlier but it's easier when you don't ever die the xp just rolls in) 10 minutes a run, 1-4mil exp every run depending on your base rank.
i think u are jus there to stir shit up, and yes my friend, you are indeed the bandwagon headmaster. no more replies are warranted from me as i have said all i have to say and anything more will just be me replying to your stupidity.
Irony surrounds me as my oppinion of you is drowned by it.
i just wont lower myself to your childish attitude.
kthxcubye
say what u want man, i wont post any further. my points have been laid out, the rest is up to kk.
Yes you better run ¬.¬
edit;
Could some uranus players or some of the people who know me please back me up with the whole owning a PPU thing at least? :p
slaughteruall
28-01-04, 18:23
OK here we go
Self-Cast S/D is really the best and simplest way to sort the problem, period.
Why are ppl even saying this. It will NEVER happen. It does away with the SUPPORT role of a PPU and comletly kill the APU.
Heal.
Ressurrection.
Parashock.
DB.
Resist Buffs.
Combat Buffs.
Anti Poison.
Anti Parashock.
Anti Damage Boost.
You realise this list is already LONGER than every other class attenting the same op wars?
Do you realize how much dmg a PPU does? That is IT.
Constructive comments or no comments at all please.
That can go for alot of what you said also.
Why am I always the one to have to shut these people up? I know there are other people on this forum who can think things through logically, so how come they always take a break when someone turns up and starts spouting this bull?
Then what does a PPU do? It foreign casts doesn't it? Maybe i should say this. I think the logic behind the concept is beyond you. No wait you said that.
If you had said Level effectively, I'd have granted you it.
But level, no, this is a lie of ommision.
I have brought 3 PPUs from /2 to /30 ALONE SOLO in less than A DAY
And what about past that? to say /66 or higher?
Heh, pretty easily actually, parashock the APU get some distance, or parashock every enemy and have everyone kill the APU.
An APU casting this sanctum would be a target to all, instantly...
Remember everyone wants para removed. Plus the NO FOREIGN cast bull shit. which means a APU does this coments sucide. And everyone else (PE/PPU) just does there own shields again. A waste of a life.
My PPU was base PSI 98 in LESS THAN A DAY
Ok so which is it /30 or base 98 PSI in a day? Which is a lie? Come on know tell the truth. And not all of us have no life to sit and play neocron for a solid 24 hours. And without exploiting i really dont think it is possible.
Once it is done, the moaners can seriously go to god damn hell because they will not get a word in EDGEWAYS while I am around and that is primarily directed at you rade Okay?
So far the one thing i agree with you on.
QD should be paid to balance this game for KK imo.
I play on Uranus and I can say that QD has got a PPU, I don't know how good he is as I have never played against/with him (unless you count that 1on1 vs my tank? ;) ) But following his reputation he is VERY good.
Oh and btw. his old clan and my clan are KoS so it's not like I'm in his clan or anything.
Oh and btw.x2 QD apply for the moderator jobs cause you seem to have UNLIMITED patience.
QuantumDelta
28-01-04, 18:53
Originally posted by slaughteruall
OK here we go
Why are ppl even saying this. It will NEVER happen. It does away with the SUPPORT role of a PPU and comletly kill the APU.
Puhleaze.
You ignore the fact that APUs are instantly ready for battle (no buff time/drug time) and in duel conditions (in which PEs/Tanks/Spies are all given time to buff/drug) are equal to Tanks, and PEs, and greater than spies.
Why would it completely kill the APU?
Shadow Dancer has repeatedly commented on how many APUs play like they're suicidal, or don't know how to survive fights.
But they can and they do.
If APUs are equal to PEs in duels then with self cast SD they will be equal to a PE in an op war, rather than, currently as they are, several times more combat effective in many ways.
APUs will also be equal to Tanks.
They will still be greater than spies.
Yes, it heavily "nerfs" APUs in Op wars, but uhh that is what it takes to bring them down to the level of combat effectiveness that the other classes currently have.
Support role for PPU -
The primary, most important spell a PPU will ever use, is Heal.
Period.
That will not be taken away, nor nerfed.
Please note, this idea also comes with an un-nerfing to some extent (preferably large one) of rezz.
Parashock will need final adjustments as it's whacked ATM.
PPU will still have several major roles in;
Parashocking (Primarily tactically a PPU would shock an APU first because APUs are the most dangerous targets, but now, instead of being the most dangerous AND great defencively, they're the most dangerous and defencively weak, ya know, like it's supposed to be?).
Damage Boosting (Primarily, tactically, PEs since they now have the highest defence and damage boost will rip their self-cast SD to shreds).
Primaries (Very useful to characters that are trying to min-max/push the envolope such as my own, typically, and most of my better designs).
Anti-spells (These will be more important than before because DB can't be ignored due to no S/D).
Sanctums (Strategic use, hard to use a sanctum tactically, though easily possible if you are in an organised force, especially a LARGE organised force).
Ressurrection (Though currently nerfed I would prefer, as stated above, that rezz would be unnerfed to a fair degree with this change).
Do you realize how much dmg a PPU does? That is IT.
As I said.
I have played PPU, I know what their job is, and I am exceedingly good at doing it, thank you.
That can go for alot of what you said also.
As I said before, I respond in kind.
If you pass a comment at me, that is not constructive I will simply bite you or anyone else on it.
Then what does a PPU do? It foreign casts doesn't it? Maybe i should say this. I think the logic behind the concept is beyond you. No wait you said that.
Again You don't seem to be able to understand the concept of general class balance over your blind view of the PPU.
I couldn't, personally, careless if holy heal was made even more powerful with this change, not in the slightest.
BUT.
Shelter and Deflector FUCK RESIST ABSORBTION RATIOS this means that damage vs resist which is balanced in non-ppu combat is thrown completely out the window in ppu combat.
hense the reason behind this.
And what about past that? to say /66 or higher?
Actually, due to having a "slightly" strange for PPU implant setup (eg; non-MC5 and non-exp PSI cont), and the fact that I never did missions, my PPU only ever made it up to 75/65 IIRC.
Remember everyone wants para removed. Plus the NO FOREIGN cast bull shit. which means a APU does this coments sucide. And everyone else (PE/PPU) just does there own shields again. A waste of a life.
Like I said it didn't specifically peak my interest and it was not an idea meant to be combined with self cast READ.
Ok so which is it /30
My Venus PPU(never got to finish leveling because I admit after level /30 though easy to do, was fairly boring, saying a PPU can't level solo though, is bullshit) and a PPU on another account hit /30 in a few hours of leveling in TH alone.
If you want to call leveling off TH Energy Core bots as a /2 an exploit because I have PPU Healing powers and TL 1 Parashock bolt then fine.
Increasing bolt as I went up, of course doing hard missions all the way because I have the faction symp = nice exp for a noob ppu.
or base 98 PSI in a day? Which is a lie? Come on know tell the truth.
They're both true.
This is in reference to my main, Uranus PPU, Kenshin.
As I said earlier;
Chaos Caves after Blessed Heal (blessed heal does not take long to get to when you have an APU Partner the whole way) We just required moving leveling spots every half hour or less.
CC EXP=
1-4 Mil XP Per run depending on (mobs I forgot because leuits = mega xp) mobs, and base rank, 10 minutes approx. per run (there are ways to run through those caves like there was nothing in them, so long as you don't run into spawners anyway... but spawners are great exp and make up for the lost time).
And not all of us have no life to sit and play neocron for a solid 24 hours. And without exploiting i really dont think it is possible.
Heh :)
Actually I think the part that took the longest other than the last 3 PSI Levels out of that was leveling DEX .....poking moveon is a piss take o_O
So far the one thing i agree with you on.
That's who I am.
Thank you for at least one post that wasn't almost completely caked in crap.
X - My patience isn't all that unlimited dude, but I feel very strongly about these topics.
As for moderator positions, I've been told to apply a few times, those positions don't interest me, especially after the Ragnarok fiasco, I would prefer not to leave room for people to try ;)
Psycho Killa
28-01-04, 18:55
I think we should give up QD I say lets tell everyone monks are fine as they are that way we can just wait for the day kk nerfhammers ppus to oblivion and we can say I told you so.
I honestly give up on the subject its futiles trying to get through some of these peoples thick skulls.
Honestly why is it that most of the ppus who think that they are at an acceptable level forget to factor in the fact that they are GIMPS plain and simple. Tradeskills equals shitty monk no ifs ands or buts.
QuantumDelta
28-01-04, 18:58
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
I think we should give up QD I say lets tell everyone monks are fine as they are that way we can just wait for the day kk nerfhammers ppus to oblivion and we can say I told you so.
I honestly give up on the subject its futiles trying to get through some of these peoples thick skulls.
Honestly why is it that most of the ppus who think that they are at an acceptable level forget to factor in the fact that they are GIMPS plain and simple. Tradeskills equals shitty monk no ifs ands or buts.
Dude I *LIKE* My PPU I don't want it to disappear like the hybrids :|
Through out all of the arguments for and against nerfing ppus, i still stick by my initial post and completely 100% agree that we need nerfed/changed in the most obvious way. I don't want to make the ppu class useless, hell that is my main character, i didn't power level and it took me a year to level him, why would i want to waste a years worth of work? I am possibly dumb, but not insane.
I understand completely why there are some ppus on here that think that my and other people's statements are absurd, but I think it is becuase they don't have enough experience or education about fighting ppus and the mechanics of how things work.
I do notice that the people backing my statements up are not only some of the best ppus i have seen, but are also tried and true people on this board who are DIE HARD advocates of balancing this game, for one reason, to make it fun to play by everyone.
I'm sorry bounty but I hafta disagree. Maybe you don't care about being a ppu, but I picked ppu as my class for a reason. I wasn't one of the many bandwagon jumpers who made ppu's recently. Even my original hybrid was ppu inclined, before ppu's existed. I like ppu's. I like helping people, I like it when they realize they're capable of so much more just because I'm there. Wether you hate ppu's or not, a friendly ppu at an op fight is your best friend. I don't want my class obliterated by the ignorant masses, it happened to me before as a hybrid. This time I won't really have anywhere to go. Hybrids may be viable with the next patch, but they won't last if ppu nerfs continue. They'll just be gimpy apu's. That would prolly be the last straw for me to quit nc, none of the other classes look very good to me.
I don't think you or the majority understands where we're coming from. We are designed to help people, that is our entire function in Neocron. But the people we help often despise us for helping them, though they expect us to always be there when they need us. We are indeed overpowered, but people treat us as if that's our fault. As if we all got together and voted to have ppu's be immortals. Yes, let us ruin pvp for everyone else, that sounds like fun! So not only do we help people as a living, we now also bend over backwards trying to come up with ways to balance our own class. Can you name a time when another class did that? Maybe the Hybrids, but many of them are now PPU's. When Tanks dominated, did I see many Tank initiated threads about how to reduce tanks? If ppu's are removed do you think we'll see many pe's posting threads about how they're too powerful and need to be reduced? I doubt it, there may be a few, but they're hardly the norm. To make matters worse, Neocron really is stacked against ppu monks. They do almost everything possible to make our lives 500% harder then any other class. We risk more at death, We need more equipment, We're higher maintanance, The list goes on with ways the game favors other classes. Now many ppu's are realizing that we have little hope for the future. With the community so set against us, and kk's poor track record in dealing with nerfs. It's pretty clear we're going to be smacked like Hybrids were, except we probably won't be able to make a comeback. At best I can see us managing to stay as PvM support, certainly no more PvP for ppu's.
The sad thing is, we don't even require a mega nerf to kill ppu's. All you hafta do is reduce us enough that the enormous negatives in a ppu's life are nolonger countered by the fun of being a ppu. That's not really very hard to do, it's starting to happen already. Next patch will knock us down a little more, and there will most definitly be more nerf patches to come after that. Our days are numbered.
Does this mean ppu's are fine? No not at all, we definitly need to be reduced... but also fixed! we need boosts, we need alternatives, we need ways to still enjoy being a ppu. I do not want to be another bitch class like tradeskillers. Problems that became obvious when ppu's were first created.. still exist! I believe the last positive change for ppu's was the spell graphics being modified. Hooray! I suppose ridiculously late fixes are better then no fixes at all. Yet if I go back and look at the patch notes, I bet you they slipped in a nerf or somthing if not just for ppu's then for monks in general. There has prolly only been a handful of patches that actualy did not modify monks. Yet it's outrageous when other classes are modified once. Grrr
Not directing this specifically at you carinth, but Im so tired of
people talking about how the poor monks have been nerfed over
and over and OMG STOP NERFING THE MONKS.
Well.
If for example a spy has "power 100". And a monk has "power
350". And the monk has had its power reduced by 1 for like 100
patches and the spies have been increased by 1 every other
patch. That still just puts spies at 150 and monks at 250. So we
should all just stfu then and accept it because OMG WE HAVE
BEEN NERFED SO MANY TIMES POOR US. No, not poor you. Poor
spies.
QuantumDelta
28-01-04, 21:00
Excluding Para;
PSI
- Reduced effect of freeze spells.
- Increased APU/PPU requirements on most spells to keep hybrid monks from using the high techlevel spells.
- Reduced the APU/PPU penalty (aka. Hybrid nerf) to 5%.
- Switched the techlevels of Resurrect (now 52) and Blessed Heal (now 55).
I do not see a PPU Nerf here, since it's been explained to me damage and rof stats on spells will remain the same for pures.
naw i love PPUs it give us ppl who suck a decent chance to win :)
see the thing with this game is its a MMORPG not a FPS so you gotta have something to help balance out for ppl who dont have too much skill(ie me) otherwise the game only caters to 1337 FPS players cause they can kill everyone....at least with a PPU if you suck you might still win
QuantumDelta
28-01-04, 21:04
Originally posted by joran420
naw i love PPUs it give us ppl who suck a decent chance to win :)
see the thing with this game is its a MMORPG not a FPS so you gotta have something to help balance out for ppl who dont have too much skill(ie me) otherwise the game only caters to 1337 FPS players cause they can kill everyone....at least with a PPU if you suck you might still win And if the leet Person has a PPU who is skilled.
You're boned.
remove shelter/deflector foreign cast. *hides*
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Excluding Para;
PSI
- Reduced effect of freeze spells.
- Increased APU/PPU requirements on most spells to keep hybrid monks from using the high techlevel spells.
- Reduced the APU/PPU penalty (aka. Hybrid nerf) to 5%.
- Switched the techlevels of Resurrect (now 52) and Blessed Heal (now 55).
I do not see a PPU Nerf here, since it's been explained to me damage and rof stats on spells will remain the same for pures.
It only really nerfs the low level ppus.
yep...sometimes thats the case ...but at least mr leet doesnt just come in and start fraging...he has to have a PPU friend and even then so he wins it still takes a more effort and with PPU's the battles can last long enough to get reinforcements to come kill him...vs....boom your APU with 20con one burst your toast shit
I do however think that with the antiheal drone coming out, the ppu will be balanced soon.
Now I think the people rreally needing a bit of help are our rifle users Pe and spies alike.
Just remove the stupid cliping range for gawd sakes.
Originally posted by Rai Wong
I do however think that with the antiheal drone coming out, the ppu will be balanced soon.
How the fuck will this balance ppus????? People will need twice as many ppus now and also droners. This doesn't solve the fucking problem with ppus being too important. Also not to mention playing a droner will still be boring so instead of people making droners becuase they want one they'll be making them as an alt becuase they'll be needed in ops fights.
Originally posted by Carinth
I'm sorry bounty but I hafta disagree. Maybe you don't care about being a ppu, but I picked ppu as my class for a reason. I wasn't one of the many bandwagon jumpers who made ppu's recently. Even my original hybrid was ppu inclined, before ppu's existed. I like ppu's. I like helping people, I like it when they realize they're capable of so much more just because I'm there. Wether you hate ppu's or not, a friendly ppu at an op fight is your best friend. I don't want my class obliterated by the ignorant masses, it happened to me before as a hybrid. This time I won't really have anywhere to go. Hybrids may be viable with the next patch, but they won't last if ppu nerfs continue. They'll just be gimpy apu's. That would prolly be the last straw for me to quit nc, none of the other classes look very good to me.
I don't think you or the majority understands where we're coming from. We are designed to help people, that is our entire function in Neocron. But the people we help often despise us for helping them, though they expect us to always be there when they need us. We are indeed overpowered, but people treat us as if that's our fault. As if we all got together and voted to have ppu's be immortals. Yes, let us ruin pvp for everyone else, that sounds like fun! So not only do we help people as a living, we now also bend over backwards trying to come up with ways to balance our own class. Can you name a time when another class did that? Maybe the Hybrids, but many of them are now PPU's. When Tanks dominated, did I see many Tank initiated threads about how to reduce tanks? If ppu's are removed do you think we'll see many pe's posting threads about how they're too powerful and need to be reduced? I doubt it, there may be a few, but they're hardly the norm. To make matters worse, Neocron really is stacked against ppu monks. They do almost everything possible to make our lives 500% harder then any other class. We risk more at death, We need more equipment, We're higher maintanance, The list goes on with ways the game favors other classes. Now many ppu's are realizing that we have little hope for the future. With the community so set against us, and kk's poor track record in dealing with nerfs. It's pretty clear we're going to be smacked like Hybrids were, except we probably won't be able to make a comeback. At best I can see us managing to stay as PvM support, certainly no more PvP for ppu's.
The sad thing is, we don't even require a mega nerf to kill ppu's. All you hafta do is reduce us enough that the enormous negatives in a ppu's life are nolonger countered by the fun of being a ppu. That's not really very hard to do, it's starting to happen already. Next patch will knock us down a little more, and there will most definitly be more nerf patches to come after that. Our days are numbered.
Does this mean ppu's are fine? No not at all, we definitly need to be reduced... but also fixed! we need boosts, we need alternatives, we need ways to still enjoy being a ppu. I do not want to be another bitch class like tradeskillers. Problems that became obvious when ppu's were first created.. still exist! I believe the last positive change for ppu's was the spell graphics being modified. Hooray! I suppose ridiculously late fixes are better then no fixes at all. Yet if I go back and look at the patch notes, I bet you they slipped in a nerf or somthing if not just for ppu's then for monks in general. There has prolly only been a handful of patches that actualy did not modify monks. Yet it's outrageous when other classes are modified once. Grrr
I don't really see how you are disagreeing with me. You admit yourself that ppus need to be reduced(nerfed). And for your information I was a ppu LONG before it was a fad. And i also i admitted that I never powerleveled. I enjoyed spending hours at the MB bunker healing and buffing people. It was a ton of fun and a challenge to me to keep people alive. I just don't see how because we require more maintanence, lose more upon death, etc that gives us no excuse to be the overpowering and super depended upon uber class. And you also say that the ignorant masses screwed you over the first time for being a hybrid. I'd say they are the ones who aren't so ignorant. They saw hybrids that had best defense and best offense in the game and were getting tired of losing 20 against one.
My purpose of this thread was not to make us into a un useful class, and that seems to be the fear in everyones mind that is against this thread. Coudln't be further from the truth, i just want this game to be more balanced and the end goal is to have it a more fun game. Right now you like it cause the support role that you give and the effects of your spells are so blatantly obvious. You can see people going from close to death back to full health, you can ressurect people, and what not. If you were truly in this for the support role reason, you wouldn't mind it not being so blatantly obvious. The satisfaction you would get was to know that you helped in your own way, a little health overtime to a few players would definitely help in battle, it would not be so obvious, but it would definitely help and that is where your satisfaction should derive in my opinion, not because you know your effects make or break a fight.
The one thing i will agree with you on 100% is that you do have a a reason to fear over nerfage and we will have very weak ppus for a few months till they can over correct, but that is no reason to not have us balanced.
Originally posted by petek480
How the fuck will this balance ppus????? People will need twice as many ppus now and also droners. This doesn't solve the fucking problem with ppus being too important. Also not to mention playing a droner will still be boring so instead of people making droners becuase they want one they'll be making them as an alt becuase they'll be needed in ops fights.
I have had a droner for about 8 months and love playing him. I think a lot of people like to play as droners, the reason there aren't more is because of the bugs.
Shadow Dancer
28-01-04, 21:53
Originally posted by Rade
@joran: o_O :confused:
rofl
Originally posted by Strych9
And for the record, if heals are untouched, I could see the benefit in non-foreign cast S/D. I am for it.
Yes, heals should be untouched.
I'm not in favor of reducing heals AND making shields self/cast. That's going into the sledgehammer route.
Originally posted by Psycho Killa
We just have to SLOWLY lower there importance until we find a happy medium between overpowered and useless.
Exactly.
Originally posted by Lifewaster
Wow the no foreign cast shelter/def is a GREAT idea I think.
Tanks would become the front line fighters again, and APUs would be support instead of frontline so we could stop being monkacron. PEs would benefit the most I guess.
And PPU would be spared casting S/D every 2 seconds in and op fight.
I really cant complain with this.
Exactly.
How about in return all monks can REALISTICLY cap int, a ppu gets maybe a new spell like teleport, and they won't require so many points to cap their ppu spells so it won't be the end of the world if they lost their 5 slot holy heal. That sound good? :D
Originally posted by Rade
Thats funny because more or less ALL mmorpgs and muds
have "support" classes and they all manage to balance it better
than this clusterfuck that is PPUs.
0wnd
Originally posted by Rade
I think youve misunderstood me. The ONLY way for me to have
fun is not to have a ppu with me or against me. As soon as
theres a ppu there all fun goes out the window. In OP wars it can
be fun as long as there are an even amount of monks on both
sides.. but should that really be a requirement for a fun war?
Exactly. I would LOVE to prefer other classes instead of just apu/ppu.
The only reason I prefer some tanks nowadays is because of the devourer(it rapes apus) and because some tanks are really really good. So technically I prefer that person, but not really the class.
Originally posted by Ehyuko
It's not a bad idea except that only apus can do it... imagine, holy antibuff... SANCTUM!
Of course the apu using it is screwed over, but so is everyone within range, the only thing that makes an ok idea and not a good one is that how could ppus survive the minute one of these things goes up? Parashock.... maybe? I dunno, but I like this idea a lot more then holy antibuff barrel. Which is also a fine idea.
Edit: Of course the barrel thingy also screws over ppus, perhaps some kind of set status spell is part of the cath sanctum? Shelter/deflector are not affected by anti spells of any kind but a heal is also immediately cancelled?
Whatever, it certainly would be a funny thing to see, an apu charging through battle trying to get within range of the ppu without a heal, shelter or deflector on him but with the ability to NUKE any ppu in range.
I'm sure ppus have a much more reasonable solution towards making them equal to any other class then I could come up with having only some experince with ppus.
lol, come on that's a bad suggestion. That would make apus like 50x more needed and powerful than any other class.
Originally posted by deac
how would a thing that kills us faster make it less stressfull to play a ppu?
I think you misunderstood my post.
I meant I think that if they introduce more anti-ppu weaponry, then they should work on make ppuing less stressful or less high maintenance. Know what I mean?
Originally posted by shardl0r
Well gee wiz, I never thought of that. I mean, that would mean the APU would no longer be the front line fighter at op wars. What a completely unimaginable idea. Hah, they'd be reduced to mere SUPPORT, no way am I letting that happen to my APU. I mean, if I didn't have S/D I'd have to actually learn how to fight, rather than just cap my HL and attack when shielded with heal running. [/sarcasm]
So yeh, remind me again why self-cast-only is a bad idea?
Exactly. APUs shouldn't even be the front line fighters or just charging blindly.
Originally posted by Archeus
Unless I am missing something, APUs have horrible defenses and thier spells are range nerfed. Which means the APU will drop in seconds, long before they can do any serious damage.
They only become really viable characters when teamed. You want to remove that.
That's incorrect. First of all they can still snipe with halos. Secondly, they have no reticle, no recoil, no AIMING DISABILITIES!
The tank can take the damage and go to the front line and the apu can stay and the back and deal his heavy ass damage. Remember, no one has shields except the PE(and ppu, duh). So they have to be more careful in what they do.
My APU has 450 health with PPU buffs. That's pretty damn good, even if my resists aren't too great. And holy heal would still help alot.
Not to mention tank aoe or apu barrels which actually do good damage to unsheltered targets.
Basically it's like the chaos caves. Where an apu a tank and a spy will be doing the caves and not dying. But as soon as a ppu shows up, eveyrone starts falling over dead because they know a PPU is there.
People will be less careless if they know they can't have any shields.
And finally, this wouldn't make the ppu's job more stressful, unlike adding 55 more weappons that specifically target shields or ppus until ultimately all ppus are gone from the game due to a stress-induced heart attack.
I will take a -8 loss to ppw from the ds/psi core being reset. It'll take my ppw down to 99, which isn't very good. If I want my pool back up, I'll hafta reduce ppu, which means dmg/rof loss. 8 points may not seem like much, but a monk values every single point he can get in psi. The anti heal drone is most likely an indication of how they intend on nerfing ppu's. Giving more people the ability to counter us. I shudder to think what it would be like if more ppl could debuff us.
Rade, I would rather be the weakest class, but actualy count on staying that way for more then a month, then be super powerful one week, gimped another, hafta revise my setup time after time. Your example is incorrect. The equivalant would be Spies being sent to 0 within a few patches and then pretty much stayed there for months. They fluctuate some, but never coming close to what they used to be, or should be in comparison to the other classes. The monk has been everywhere, its literaly a rollercoaster. Sometimes a patch may not change our power level, but still force us to reskill/setup our chars or adapt to a new playstyle. How many times can you recall a stat other then Int/Psi being reset with a patch? It's happened for Psi several times. You don't understand how nice it is to be stable until you've been a monk.
Bounty: The problem is that simply saying ppu's are a problem and need to be nerfed is only going to make things worse. The majority is focused on reducing ppu's, in whatever way possible. Many have good intentions and even present reasonable ideas, but then we did the same for hybrids. That didn't do us much good. It's entirely different to say it's good to reduce an unbalanced class, then to say I approve of a class being wiped out. Do you think they'll seriously ever let hybrids be reasonable again? I don't, hybrids will be too strong with this patch.. again, they'll hafta be nerfed again. PPU's receive even more hostility then hybrids ever did, I doubt the community would allow them to ever come back once crushed.
Mr Friendly
28-01-04, 22:14
why not just drop the ppu dmg % to about 480% to about 510%? dropped just a lil, makin the class a bit weaker in defences......yet strong enough to be able to evade many attacks
& with para i would just change the effect. instead of it makin u run slower, id cut the effect down to what a ppu does with a reg para halo or holy para lance, then giving u a "synaptic impairment" except without the fuzzyness.
so this way u get about 40% stun, instead of the usual 83%, now going at a jogging speed. but to make it still effective, u have an insivible synaptic impairment also - changing ur NOW 'jogging' direction in random directions :)
neway, thats my opinions
PPUs should be treated like a medic/supporter, not a defensive barricade. It's passive PSI, not 'defensive' PSI, is it not?
Honestly, watching PPUs run around Neocron constantly reminds me of watching the Matrix. It's like they aren't even being hit sometimes, just standing there stopping/dodging attacks. It's stupid.
Agressive and Passive should be considered two separate schools of mastery, and because of that, anyone becomming godly in one, suffers in the other. Translation: A pure APU should have an even greater penalty on his foreign-cast buffs than the other classes. This would take a bite out of the APU/PPU team that can obliterate huge masses of people.
This would also "justify" (in a roleplay sense) why hybrids suffer slightly and cannot master both.
It would have been nice for Neocron to not have the monk class (or psi skills) at all. (that is, for neocron to have been an mmorpg without 'magic' use), but what's done is done... all that can be hoped for now is to fix the fucking monks.
Originally posted by Samhain
PPUs should be treated like a medic/supporter, not a defensive barricade. It's passive PSI, not 'defensive' PSI, is it not?
Honestly, watching PPUs run around Neocron constantly reminds me of watching the Matrix. It's like they aren't even being hit sometimes, just standing there stopping/dodging attacks. It's stupid.
Can you please go make a ppu and try to fight without s/d. Until you do that stfu. kthxbye
die thread die!!!
fucking die!! upteen pages same rant
Originally posted by WebShock
die thread die!!!
fucking die!! upteen pages same rant
No fucking shit...I read the first 2 pages, got tired, and decided to skip to the last page to see how it was all turning out...there's NO FRIGGIN DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PAGE 2 AND THIS ONE
skip the locking, DELETE THIS FUCKING THREAD
sheesh people
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I think you misunderstood my post.
I meant I think that if they introduce more anti-ppu weaponry, then they should work on make ppuing less stressful or less high maintenance. Know what I mean?
like making sd groups only work on your team and sanctum only on allies? would be kinda nice and it would make it easer.... or maybe group lvl 3 buffs?
ooh and i could see a duration boost on holy heal, now that would be nice.....
edit... group lvl 3 buffs would rock or a combo... haz melee spy all in one :D now that would make ppuing almost ok again :)
I agree, longer duration but considerably lower per tick would be awesome.
Can you please go make a ppu and try to fight without s/d. Until you do that stfu. kthxbye
Mind explaining just what exactly your point is?
S/D being a necessity does not mean S/D are balanced. You're a fucking idiot. 'kthxbye'.
Originally posted by Samhain
Mind explaining just what exactly your point is?
S/D being a necessity does not mean S/D are balanced. You're a fucking idiot. 'kthxbye'.
My point is you do not play a ppu so you have no fucking idea what you're talking about. Now if you did have a ppu you might know that a ppu without it's defenses is impossible to play. So like i said before go make a ppu and try fighting without s/d and until then STFU.
You really are an idiot. I just countered your argument, and you repeated yourself. GG! You are teh winnar!
Originally posted by Samhain
You really are an idiot. I just countered your argument, and you repeated yourself. GG! You are teh winnar!
Originally posted by Samhain
Mind explaining just what exactly your point is?
Yeah i'm the idiot:rolleyes:
That was me mocking the lack of any thought/substance in your post, genius.
Can you please go make a ppu and try to fight without s/d.
S/D being a necessity does not mean S/D are balanced.
Now if you did have a ppu you might know that a ppu without it's defenses is impossible to play. So like i said before go make a ppu and try fighting without s/d and until then STFU.
Got any more AOL/12 year old acronyms to throw at me? Come on, I'm waiting.
Originally posted by Samhain
That was me mocking the lack of any thought/substance in your post, genius.
And how was my post lacking any thought/substance? You were the one saying that a ppu should be treated as a medic without defenses. So I was simply telling you to go play a ppu before you start talking about stuff you don't know what you're even talking about.
I didn't say he should be treated as a medic WITHOUT defenses. I said he should not be treated as a DEFENSIVE BARRICADE.
And I even went to elabourate that what I was getting at was this ability that skilled PPUs have to walk around taking fire from up to 5 people and shrugging it off. Never did I say they should be without S/D.
I said that S/D effects should be reduced on APUs since they follow the school of purely offensive psi power, so as to kill the awful apu/ppu combo that dominates a lot of the time
So I was simply telling you to go play a ppu before you start talking about stuff you don't know what you're even talking about.
Perhaps before you start telling me what to do, you should learn how to read, and if you know how to read, you should start applying that ability, because you haven't demonstrated anything of the sort, yet.
First off ppus aren't defensive barricades, another reason why you should make yourself a ppu before saying anything about them. Second, what do you propose be done with ppus? Becuase I saw no where in your post what you think should be done. So I just assumed you thought ppus shoudln't have s/d with you talking about ppus are passive and not defensive psis.
I was pretty sure it had been severely covered that they should have somewhat toned down heal and shelter/deflector effects.
yes, they are defensive barricades, perhaps you don't know how to play a PPU then, because I've seen PPUs stand there and be shot at by 2 tanks with CS, me with my FL, and 2 PEs with liberators and heal it all off.
Originally posted by Samhain
yes, they are defensive barricades, perhaps you don't know how to play a PPU then, because I've seen PPUs stand there and be shot at by 2 tanks with CS, me with my FL, and 2 PEs with liberators and heal it all off.
When i say ppus aren't defensive barricades i'm talking about the average ppu not the best ppus but the average ones.
Some good points made in this post for both sides of the arguement. My 2 cents is that foreign casts of deflector or shelter should be further nerfed or completely removed from game. Thats it, that takes away the neccessity of having to have a ppu to take an op right there in one easy step. No other class is required to take an op (except a hacker) so why should ppus be any different. That tells me that ppus aren't balanced.
If ppus lost the ability to foreign cast lets look at how they would still be viable in op wars.
Parashocking
Increasing Resists
Increasing Damage
Damage Boosting
Rezzing
Healing
So a ppu would still be great to have in an op war but would be very possible to win against a clan with one there if the other clan is more skilled pvp wise. I can remember when a clan tried to recruit the best pvpers and those guys were what made a clan so strong, now it seems that ppus are what make a clan great and generally the clan with the most ppus is the clan that wins the fight 90% of the time.
The only downside i see to this is leveling would become a pain in the ass, think how many times a ppu has been at your side casting def/shelt while you take on a grim or while you are caving, or warbot hunting. Alot of these places where you really need a ppu to level would become so much harder just because of the lack of shelt/def.
So its either ppus get overhauled or we continue to depend on the amount of ppus at a fight to determine the winner. I guess in this case your damned if you do damned if you dont.
My Two Pence.
Originally posted by CR@SH
Some good points made in this post for both sides of the arguement. My 2 cents is that foreign casts of deflector or shelter should be further nerfed or completely removed from game. Thats it, that takes away the neccessity of having to have a ppu to take an op right there in one easy step. No other class is required to take an op (except a hacker) so why should ppus be any different. That tells me that ppus aren't balanced.
Also, in real wars, why is there a need for a medic in every battle? I mean, why should they be a necessity in every skirmish and conflict, that tells me that RL medics are not balanced and should be nerfed. Let the men die out there. Really.
Originally posted by CR@SH
If ppus lost the ability to foreign cast lets look at how they would still be viable in op wars.
Parashocking
Increasing Resists
Increasing Damage
Damage Boosting
Rezzing
Healing
Parashock is getting nerfs. They can't increase anything other than using damage boosts on the enemy as it classes a a foreign cast. They can heal, but then it makes the life of the PPU even MORE stressful, as where someone with buffs on takes 100 damage from X-gun, they now take 200/300, and the PPU has men dying left right and center, every second. Rezzing is already nerfed with duration to a point where by the time you rezz someone, the fight's over, and the one, badly wounded (and in need of buffs) person you just raised, won't do anything. In fact the enemy will sit around the body and wait for you to rezz him.
Originally posted by CR@SH
So a ppu would still be great to have in an op war but would be very possible to win against a clan with one there if the other clan is more skilled pvp wise. I can remember when a clan tried to recruit the best pvpers and those guys were what made a clan so strong, now it seems that ppus are what make a clan great and generally the clan with the most ppus is the clan that wins the fight 90% of the time.
How do PPU's do damage btw? Everyone is on about PPUs becoming a strong character for Op wars, but on their own bat. All they are, is damage sponges. Human shields. parashock doesn't do much damage, they can't use any weapons well, maybe a Companion Archer rifle or SMG, and all they do is run around, healing themselves, buffing themselves. If you removed ppu-casting buffs, then in wars, everyone will quickly learn to ignore the PPU until everyone else is dead. While that PPU is healing X team-mate, Y is a viable candidate for ganking. While PPU is Ressing Y team-mate, Kill off X and Z. etc.
Originally posted by CR@SH
The only downside i see to this is leveling would become a pain in the ass, think how many times a ppu has been at your side casting def/shelt while you take on a grim or while you are caving, or warbot hunting. Alot of these places where you really need a ppu to level would become so much harder just because of the lack of shelt/def.
Yeah. It's one of the nice things when a PPU comes down to aggies, gives you a heal and a few buffs, and you really appreciate it. Now, all they can do is heal from a low level, and EVENTUALLY damage buff, they are worthless in a team, until they are high enough, and no-one will team them.
Originally posted by CR@SH
So its either ppus get overhauled or we continue to depend on the amount of ppus at a fight to determine the winner. I guess in this case your damned if you do damned if you dont.
We are reliant on drugs. The amount of drugs people must buy for PVP and OP wars keeps BD/PP rolling in money. Why not lower the weapon/armour reqs so we don't have to be reliant on drugs? PPUs are important. Possibly too important, but you look how hard it is to make one. Either you go pure, and spend the next 10 years of your life trying to leech exp from team-mates, or you go APU and lom, spending the next 10 years of your life trying to lom down 150+ APU into PPU, then regaining all the levels lost in the process. Noob PPUs die at the first sign of breeze, but those capped, decent PPUs, are rather rare.
The end point, will be that PPU will be like the libby tank, or melee spy. A rarity, only taken on by people who want something different. PPUs will die out, start going hybrid etc, as they are over-stressed, over-worked thanks to needing to heal everyone more than normal, and being nothing more than a distraction in op-wars. Might as well make a PE, at least they can heal AND shoot swirly guns.
My view is no doubt wrong, screwed over, or something, but that's my view ;P
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